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View Full Version : Rowand for Pierre (on The Final Word)


WikdChiSoxFan
11-20-2005, 11:13 PM
ROWAND OR PIERRE?

The Final Word is talking about this!!!

your thoughts?

I say we gotta keep Crash...

Fuller_Schettman
11-20-2005, 11:15 PM
To me, Rowand is the one position player that should be moved if the right deal comes along. I wouldn't want to part with anyone else...

mike squires
11-20-2005, 11:21 PM
I guess, IF the right deal comes alon, but Aaron is a pretty steady guy that can be clutch and has no fear in the outfield, stays health and would be a good guy to have in the clubhouse for next years playoffs. :D: Aron sems to really mesh with a lot of the guys including, A.J and Joe Crede. I would hate to see him go. THen again, I haven't really stopped to look at Pierre's stats either...But another thing, Aaron sems like a guy that could really come into his own next season, hitting 25 HR's and 80 RBI's.

The only thing that I have against this guy, besides going in a slump or two is he can't get a bunt down to save his life, but that is the managers fault putting him in that position.

The Deacon
11-20-2005, 11:23 PM
I guess, IF the right deal comes alon, but Aaron is a pretty steady guy that can be clutch and has no fear in the outfield, stays health and would be a good guy to have in the clubhouse for next years playoffs. :D: Aron sems to really mesh with a lot of the guys including, A.J and Joe Crede. I would hate to see him go. THen again, I haven't really stopped to look at Pierre's stats either...But another thing, Aaron sems like a guy that could really come into his own next season, hitting 25 HR's and 80 RBI's.

The only thing that I have against this guy, besides going in a slump or two is he can't get a bunt down to save his life, but that is the managers fault putting him in that position.

He can't run the bases either. He blew it twice, big time, in the playoffs. I say he's our best trading piece. If we do this trade, we need to sign Konerko AND a big time DH (Thome?) b/c we would not have much pop in the OF.

Fuller_Schettman
11-20-2005, 11:26 PM
I'd go so far as to say that there were quite a few times you could say that we won in spite of him...

buehrle4cy05
11-20-2005, 11:26 PM
DO NOT trade Rowand to Florida unless it involves Carlos Delgado.

DickAllen72
11-20-2005, 11:27 PM
There's NO WAY the Sox are trading Rowand for Pierre.

They MAY trade Marte for Pierre, which may then allow them to trade Rowand for somebody else, but Rowand for Pierre isn't going to happen--makes no sense.

WikdChiSoxFan
11-20-2005, 11:27 PM
Pierre is not the same guy he was two years ago... flash in the pan.


Plus, I think Aaron's another quiet leader..."the original grinder" they so aptly labeled him... plus part of the three stooges... I think it would affect a lot of our chemistry...


Plus, what are Aaron's Amigos going to do?

Chips
11-20-2005, 11:28 PM
He can't run the bases either. He blew it twice, big time, in the playoffs. I say he's our best trading piece. If we do this trade, we need to sign Konerko AND a big time DH (Thome?) b/c we would not have much pop in the OF.

Aaron Rowand's 13 jacks shouldn't be that hard to replace.

On the other hand, finding someone to replace his 17 GIDP's is another story.

WikdChiSoxFan
11-20-2005, 11:29 PM
There's NO WAY the Sox are trading Rowand for Pierre.

They MAY trade Marte for Pierre, which may then allow them to trade Rowand for somebody else, but Rowand for Pierre isn't going to happen--makes no sense.

yeah, sorry if it came off that way...i didn't mean a direct trade...just I guess if you'd rather have rowand or pierre in the outfield...

Chips
11-20-2005, 11:30 PM
I don't like the deal, but Rowand's value is pretty damn high, if you can get a good bat for him, I say do it. We have plenty of outfielders.

voodoochile
11-20-2005, 11:33 PM
ROWAND FOR PIERRE?

The Final Word is talking about this!!!

your thoughts?

I say we gotta keep Crash...

Just say no...

Hey Aaron, I can be in Chicago area by mignight tomorrow and in Florida by Midnight the next day. Pack your bags...

ChiSoxGirl
11-20-2005, 11:33 PM
I don't like the deal, but Rowand's value is pretty damn high, if you can get a good bat for him, I say do it. We have plenty of outfielders.

We had this conversation last night, so I'm not even going there! :tongue:

JermaineDye05
11-20-2005, 11:36 PM
so what exactly are they talking about, the possibilty of this deal, or are they suggesting it

Chips
11-20-2005, 11:36 PM
We had this conversation last night, so I'm not even going there! :tongue:

We did? :?:

Deuce
11-20-2005, 11:38 PM
He can't run the bases either. He blew it twice, big time, in the playoffs.TWICE!?!?!? HE MUST DIE!!!

Rowand runs the bases better than half our team. He's a tough player and can get the job done at center. But for the fact that we have an access of outfielders, trading Rowand would be a mistake. However, if the Sox are going to trade him, why on earth would they get another outfielder who is not a power hitter? Might as well keep Rowand for that.

If we are dealing with Florida, it should be for Delgado. That would actually fill a hole we have.

voodoochile
11-20-2005, 11:40 PM
TWICE!?!?!? HE MUST DIE!!!

Rowand runs the bases better than half our team. He's a tough player and can get the job done at center. But for the fact that we have an access of outfielders, trading Rowand would be a mistake. However, if the Sox are going to trade him, why on earth would they get another outfielder who is not a power hitter? Might as well keep Rowand for that.

If we are dealing with Florida, it should be for Delgado. That would actually fill a hole we have.

If you aren't going to have a power hitting OF, might as well have one that can steal bases, no?

DumpJerry
11-20-2005, 11:46 PM
We had this conversation last night, so I'm not even going there! :tongue:

We did? :?:

We did.

BTW, who is "we?":wink:

I can't remember what Hangar 18 had to say on the subject last night........:?:

Deuce
11-20-2005, 11:49 PM
If you aren't going to have a power hitting OF, might as well have one that can steal bases, no?Sure, if the holes we have were all closed up. As of tonight, the Sox need power. Rowand may be our best ticket to get some, so trading him for speed right now isn't worth it. Besides, Pierre may be a better runner, but he has to be given that he doesn't get many extra base hits. We are giving up a lot of doubles and homers for a guy that gets singles. So, trading for Pierre would be a step backwards IMO.

Now, that would change is KW knows Konerko is coming back. Then the trade may be worthwhile. But since I don't know that to be the case, I'd pass and push for Delgado.

ChiSoxGirl
11-21-2005, 12:00 AM
We did? :?:

That much trouble remembering it, huh?! And yes, we did talk about it. I had the whole "if it's not broken, why fix it?" philosophy!

Chips
11-21-2005, 12:02 AM
That much trouble remembering it, huh?! And yes, we did talk about it. I had the whole "if it's not broken, why fix it?" philosophy!

Oh yeah, it was a long night and I barely had any sleep and I was tired. :whiner:

DumpJerry
11-21-2005, 12:05 AM
Oh yeah, it was a long night and I barely had any sleep and I was tired. :whiner:
Yeah, none of us wanted to leave until Hangar came.....all his fault!

Tragg
11-21-2005, 12:10 AM
Use Rowand to get a 3 hitter or, if necessary, replace Konerko.
Speaking of which, I wonder how long the Konerko signing is going to drag out? No one has come near that 5/70 alleged demand yet, the BoSox don't seem to be in the game yet. If it drags on too long, it could really mess us up if we don't end up signing him.

JUribe1989
11-21-2005, 12:13 AM
Anybody think the Marlins would take Marte for Pierre? Or just something that isn't Rowand. We could have an OF where we have 1 OF everyday be the DH. This could allow them to get some rest and give us a DH. I don't know if this makes sense, but since it seems like everyone all of the sudden hates Rowand and wants him out I am saying DO NOT give up Rowand for Pierre. I'm probably saying this because I love Rowand, but Rowand is a great clubhouse guy, an unbelievable CF, has a great arm, a clutch bat, and we have seen him hit over .300 before. Pierre has a GOD AWFUL arm in center and he hit around the same that Rowand hit last year. I just think that Rowand is a guy that should be kept.

mike squires
11-21-2005, 12:23 AM
Hey where is Hangar by the way. It shows he was last logged on on the 8th!:o: And don't say he has a life outside of Whitesox interactive, cause we now he doesn't.:tongue:

Gavin
11-21-2005, 12:41 AM
...the Sox need power. Rowand may be our best ticket to get some, so trading him for speed right now isn't worth it. Besides, Pierre may be a better runner, but he has to be given that he doesn't get many extra base hits. We are giving up a lot of doubles and homers for a guy that gets singles.

Hmm.... this argument is sounding very familiar.

:caballo
"Whosasaidawhatta?"

Optipessimism
11-21-2005, 12:42 AM
I think that's asking a bit much for Pierre. He's coming off a down year, has one year left on his contract, and doesn't have much of an arm. Even if Pierre rebounded and hit .320 for us and swiped 50+ bags, which would be almost insane considering the fact that he'd be switching leagues and facing a lot of unknown competition, JP would end up pricing himself out of the Sox range for a leadoff hitter.

Unless Delgado or someone else is involved, and unless KW plans on moving Pods to DH and either starting Anderson or trading for a better CF, I don't like it.

SoxSpeed22
11-21-2005, 12:44 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to trade Rowand. Because we need those tough players. I forgot who said it, either AJ or Paulie, but he's one of the "low-key guys that comes to fight for you every day." And that's what we need. Marte for Pierre, go for it.

chisoxmike
11-21-2005, 12:56 AM
That much trouble remembering it, huh?! And yes, we did talk about it. I had the whole "if it's not broken, why fix it?" philosophy!
I believe you have some photos that could explain why chips can't remember the conversation.:D:

sullythered
11-21-2005, 05:48 AM
We are talking about the WORLD SERIES CHAMPION Aaron Rowand, right? All the White Sox should do is resign Konerko, pick up somebody decent to replace Crazy Carl (if Frank can't go) move Duque to the pen, and McCarthy to the rotation. It seems like we all forgot that we just won the World Freakin' Series. We are also in the unique position of potentially returning the exact same team that just went wire to wire and dominated the playoffs. Unless somebody comes in with an insane offer for Pauly, the Sox will be able to match. They have recently and will make more money now than ever before. DO NOT FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKE!

Deuce
11-21-2005, 07:37 AM
...the Sox need power. Rowand may be our best ticket to get some, so trading him for speed right now isn't worth it. Besides, Pierre may be a better runner, but he has to be given that he doesn't get many extra base hits. We are giving up a lot of doubles and homers for a guy that gets singles.Hmm.... this argument is sounding very familiar.Sure, if you completely ignore the entire basis of my post, which is that trading one of our outfielders for another outfielder is a waste of a trade. We have a surplus of outfielders and no #3 or #4 hitters right now. If we are going to trade people, lets fill the gaping holes we have first before fine tuning the team.

DumpJerry
11-21-2005, 08:25 AM
I believe you have some photos that could explain why chips can't remember the conversation.:D:
Those photos can be summed up in one word:
"Evidence"

ChiSoxGirl
11-21-2005, 09:15 AM
Yeah, none of us wanted to leave until Hangar came.....all his fault!

That should so be in teal!

ChiSoxGirl
11-21-2005, 09:16 AM
I believe you have some photos that could explain why chips can't remember the conversation.:D:

Chips- HE GONE that night! :tongue: And indeed, I do have pictures! All I have to do is upload them...! :wink:

veeter
11-21-2005, 09:33 AM
We are talking about the WORLD SERIES CHAMPION Aaron Rowand, right? All the White Sox should do is resign Konerko, pick up somebody decent to replace Crazy Carl (if Frank can't go) move Duque to the pen, and McCarthy to the rotation. It seems like we all forgot that we just won the World Freakin' Series. We are also in the unique position of potentially returning the exact same team that just went wire to wire and dominated the playoffs. Unless somebody comes in with an insane offer for Pauly, the Sox will be able to match. They have recently and will make more money now than ever before. DO NOT FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKE! Finally, a voice of reason. We finally win a world series and I've read people wanting to move, Rowand, Uribe, Crede, Marte, Everett, Konerko,.. you name it. These trade scenarios, to me, are ridiculous. Why would Florida trade Pierre for Rowand? Florida wouldn't save money. And isn't that Florida's reason for every move? I don't see it happening, just like 99.9% of the gossip around here.

JimH
11-21-2005, 10:07 AM
Finally, a voice of reason. We finally win a world series and I've read people wanting to move, Rowand, Uribe, Crede, Marte, Everett, Konerko,.. you name it. These trade scenarios, to me, are ridiculous. Why would Florida trade Pierre for Rowand? Florida wouldn't save money. And isn't that Florida's reason for every move? I don't see it happening, just like 99.9% of the gossip around here.

Yours is a very good point.

One reason the Marlins want to move Pierre though is because he's arbitration eligible and under control for 2006 only. With Rowand and Marte, their costs would be known, since those two are signed for a few years.

Yes, it's rumored the Marlins have to dump significant payroll but sometimes getting known costs are more appealing than facing a tough arbitration case and pending free agency.

Getting Pierre may make sense for the White Sox, even for one year, since they can either push hard to sign him or let him walk because they have a CF option coming quickly in Chris Young.

In any scenario like this, it all depends on who would go to Florida and who would come back. This rumor appears to have legs due to Ozzie's remarks about more speed and a new #2 hitter on his wish list.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 10:15 AM
In any scenario like this, it all depends on who would go to Florida and who would come back. This rumor appears to have legs due to Ozzie's remarks about more speed and a new #2 hitter on his wish list.

And the fact that the Sox have yet to enter the Furcal sweepstakes, meaning it's unlikely they'll address speed there.

Pierre doesn't excite me all that much. An OF of Pierre/Pods is pretty lack-luster defensively.

HebrewHammer
11-21-2005, 10:30 AM
Plus, what are Aaron's Amigos going to do?

Form Pierre's Posse?

daveeym
11-21-2005, 10:37 AM
Sure, if you completely ignore the entire basis of my post, which is that trading one of our outfielders for another outfielder is a waste of a trade. We have a surplus of outfielders and no #3 or #4 hitters right now. If we are going to trade people, lets fill the gaping holes we have first before fine tuning the team. I'd agree with you, but you gotta take what you can get. The biggest problem with the PK situation is time and having it hamstring the sox by taking too long to find out if he's staying or going.

Kenny's got his gameplan set. He's got 4 or 5 pieces to his puzzle that he wants placed and he's got plenty of trade bait to do it. One of those pieces is getting another burner for the 2 spot. Is it his number one priority? No, but it's up there, and he probably won't let an opportunity like Pierre (if KW and Oz trulie think he's a piece of the puzzle) pass just because PK/DH/1st base is taken care of yet. That piece might not ever materialize this offseason so why pass on other pieces that are available?

mrwag
11-21-2005, 10:48 AM
We are talking about the WORLD SERIES CHAMPION Aaron Rowand, right? All the White Sox should do is resign Konerko, pick up somebody decent to replace Crazy Carl (if Frank can't go) move Duque to the pen, and McCarthy to the rotation. It seems like we all forgot that we just won the World Freakin' Series. We are also in the unique position of potentially returning the exact same team that just went wire to wire and dominated the playoffs. Unless somebody comes in with an insane offer for Pauly, the Sox will be able to match. They have recently and will make more money now than ever before. DO NOT FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKE!

AMEN! We should quote the text above and place it on EVERY thread about trading guys. I guess it's ingrained in us Sox fans, because we've never had an off-season like this where most (PK and DH being the only question) of the pieces are already in place.

Let's all just chill. Enjoy our Turkey Day feasts, and enjoy all the awsome DVD's that are hitting the shevles/mailboxes over the next few weeks! Maybe once we relive the whole thing again, everything will get put back into perspetive and we can enjoy the team we have and remember that EVERY other team in the MLB is jealous of what we did. Stand proud!

veeter
11-21-2005, 11:02 AM
And the fact that the Sox have yet to enter the Furcal sweepstakes, meaning it's unlikely they'll address speed there.

Pierre doesn't excite me all that much. An OF of Pierre/Pods is pretty lack-luster defensively. Do you, in all honesty think the Sox are going to "enter the Furcal sweepstakes"? Of all the moves that would make the least sense. Juan Uribe is about to become a GREAT player. He was a huge part of the Sox success. Having a great team and organzation, means having an identity. Uribe is part of the Sox identity. World champs don't turn over their line-ups!!! If the Sox, all of the sudden, got dumb, and somehow wanted or landed Furcal, I'd bet my life the Braves would take Uribe off the Sox hands in a heart beat.

TomSkilling
11-21-2005, 11:13 AM
I don't like the saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Wouldn't you rather "fix it before it breaks"? That's the mentality I want Kenny to have to keep this train going on the winning path. Recently we've seen the Angels drop off pretty bad the year after they won the championship because they stood pat.

I'm sure Kenny is evaluating different ways to improve this team right now, and he knows a hell of a lot more than us. If keeping everyone means we win again, I'm all for it. Believe me, I love the makeup of this team as it stands right now and would like them all back. However, if moving Rowand, Marte, and Garland or Duque improves us in other areas to win again in the next few years, then lets go for it. Personally, I like the more aggressive approach, and I think Kenny does as well.

We are talking about the WORLD SERIES CHAMPION Aaron Rowand, right? All the White Sox should do is resign Konerko, pick up somebody decent to replace Crazy Carl (if Frank can't go) move Duque to the pen, and McCarthy to the rotation. It seems like we all forgot that we just won the World Freakin' Series. We are also in the unique position of potentially returning the exact same team that just went wire to wire and dominated the playoffs. Unless somebody comes in with an insane offer for Pauly, the Sox will be able to match. They have recently and will make more money now than ever before. DO NOT FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKE!

Randar68
11-21-2005, 11:26 AM
Do you, in all honesty think the Sox are going to "enter the Furcal sweepstakes"? Of all the moves that would make the least sense. Juan Uribe is about to become a GREAT player. He was a huge part of the Sox success. Having a great team and organzation, means having an identity. Uribe is part of the Sox identity. World champs don't turn over their line-ups!!! If the Sox, all of the sudden, got dumb, and somehow wanted or landed Furcal, I'd bet my life the Braves would take Uribe off the Sox hands in a heart beat.

Saying Uribe is about to become a "great player" is like playing the lottery. Furcal IS a great player and brings the speed and #2 hitter Ozzie's been asking for at a position where it is needed.

You get Pierre and you're looking at a crappy OF to do so while forcing you to find #3 and #4 hitters at tougher positions to do so.

Uribe is a .260 hitter with 15 HR power. What's so "great" about that? Furcal plays equivalent defense too...

*boggle*

In some of your minds, every player under the age of 30 is about to become "great"... Rowand is going to have another .900+ OPS year, Uribe is going to be great, Dye is a #3 hitter, etc etc...

It's utter fantasy.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 11:32 AM
Pierre is a faster, but basically more expensive Rowand. I don't see how or why this would make any sense whatsoever, unless there's something else reasonable coming back the Sox way (i.e. Rowand/Marte for Pierre/Delgado+cash).

Whoever said the Sox can't afford to add another speedy slap hitter without upgrading another power position (or 2) significantly had it 100% correct.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 11:35 AM
Pierre is a faster, but basically more expensive Rowand. I don't see how or why this would make any sense whatsoever, unless there's something else reasonable coming back the Sox way (i.e. Rowand/Marte for Pierre/Delgado+cash).

Whoever said the Sox can't afford to add another speedy slap hitter without upgrading another power position (or 2) significantly had it 100% correct.

I like the move if they also resign Konerko and get one of the always mentioned Giles/Helton/Delgado/Thome. That's about the only way, although I still think that weakens the OF defense considerably.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 11:43 AM
I like the move if they also resign Konerko and get one of the always mentioned Giles/Helton/Delgado/Thome. That's about the only way, although I still think that weakens the OF defense considerably.

You still have a more expensive and arb-eligible Pierre instead of the cheaper/better defending Rowand or the much much cheaper and higher upside Anderson.

The only way I can see it making sense is if ala Lowell, the marlins find it attractive for someone to take Pierre and therefore give you Delgado cheaper. But I don't get that sense since there are other teams just wanting Pierre.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 11:54 AM
You still have a more expensive and arb-eligible Pierre instead of the cheaper/better defending Rowand or the much much cheaper and higher upside Anderson.

The only way I can see it making sense is if ala Lowell, the marlins find it attractive for someone to take Pierre and therefore give you Delgado cheaper. But I don't get that sense since there are other teams just wanting Pierre.

True, but you have a legit top-of the order hitter in addition to Pods. Remember Luis Castillo and Pierre when they won the WS? Just terrors. You also are now enabled to make Igushi into a #5 or 6 hitter.

Who cares if Pierre is Arb eligible? You trade him, then, when your young outfielders are more ready to contribute. Rowand is going to make 3.25 million in 2006 and a team option 5 million in 2007. Pierre didn't perform to his 2005 salary, how much of a raise do you think he'll get? I bet he could be signed for about 4 million a year on a 3-year deal.

That would allow you to trade Pods after this year and move Pierre to LF, now THAT would be a defensive upgrade.

veeter
11-21-2005, 11:58 AM
Saying Uribe is about to become a "great player" is like playing the lottery. Furcal IS a great player and brings the speed and #2 hitter Ozzie's been asking for at a position where it is needed.

You get Pierre and you're looking at a crappy OF to do so while forcing you to find #3 and #4 hitters at tougher positions to do so.

Uribe is a .260 hitter with 15 HR power. What's so "great" about that? Furcal plays equivalent defense too...

*boggle*

In some of your minds, every player under the age of 30 is about to become "great"... Rowand is going to have another .900+ OPS year, Uribe is going to be great, Dye is a #3 hitter, etc etc...

It's utter fantasy. The only thing Furcal is better than Uribe at is stealing bases and driving while drunk.

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 11:59 AM
Saying Uribe is about to become a "great player" is like playing the lottery. Furcal IS a great player and brings the speed and #2 hitter Ozzie's been asking for at a position where it is needed.

You get Pierre and you're looking at a crappy OF to do so while forcing you to find #3 and #4 hitters at tougher positions to do so.

Uribe is a .260 hitter with 15 HR power. What's so "great" about that? Furcal plays equivalent defense too...

*boggle*

In some of your minds, every player under the age of 30 is about to become "great"... Rowand is going to have another .900+ OPS year, Uribe is going to be great, Dye is a #3 hitter, etc etc...

It's utter fantasy.
Furcal is not a great player. He plays great defense, but his .284 average and .348 OBP last year for a leadoff hitter are nothing to write home about. His career OBP is .348, and it is pulled up greatly by the flukish .394 he put up his rookie year.
Furcal does not give us the speedy number two hitter Ozzie wants at a position where it is needed. He gives us another speedy number 1 hitter at a position we have filled. As I have said before, Furcal is a leadoff man, he doesn't hit 2. There are no indications he can bat 2 successfully. A great 1 hitter doesn't necessarily make a great 2 hitter. We dont know that he can be patient, take pitches to let Scotty steal, hit to the right side to move the runners along, etc... What boggles my mind is how you keep pleasuring yourself to the thought of Furcal in a Sox uni. He is overrated. He is going to make $8-10 million a year because someone will overpay. Is that amazing .348 OBP worth $10 million a year? I think Uribe will make $4 or 5 million next year. The extra money can be spent a lot better than on Furcal. At most, Furcal puts up a decent but not great average and OBP in the 2 hole and is a minimal upgrade over Uribe for an extra $5 million. At least, Uribe becomes the better player for less money. He may never hit 2, but he can still be a great player for us. And considering how your definition of great is .284/.348, he is closer to getting there.
If we needed a SS, I would be all for getting Furcal. We have a great shortstop, so there is no reason to spend the money on him.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 12:02 PM
True, but you have a legit top-of the order hitter in addition to Pods. Remember Luis Castillo and Pierre when they won the WS? Just terrors. You also are now enabled to make Igushi into a #5 or 6 hitter.

Who cares if Pierre is Arb eligible? You trade him, then, when your young outfielders are more ready to contribute. Rowand is going to make 3.25 million in 2006 and a team option 5 million in 2007. Pierre didn't perform to his 2005 salary, how much of a raise do you think he'll get? I bet he could be signed for about 4 million a year on a 3-year deal.

That would allow you to trade Pods after this year and move Pierre to LF, now THAT would be a defensive upgrade.

Your plan is quite appealing in terms of providing a cheaper backup to Pods long-term, but if he's that cheap, why are they trying to move him? Especially for Rowand at a similar salary? I'd have to guess they think he'll get a decent raise in arb, and as long as you believe in Pods repeating his '05/'03 performances, I'd guess you can get him signed long-term for $4M/yr.

I just think there'd be a better use for Rowand. Hell - trade him to NY for Sheffield+cash!

As for Furcal, I think that's a purely intellectual debate as I don't think there's any chance ( or any indication) that Kenny's going after him.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 12:24 PM
Furcal is not a great player. He plays great defense, but his .284 average and .348 OBP last year for a leadoff hitter are nothing to write home about. His career OBP is .348, and it is pulled up greatly by the flukish .394 he put up his rookie year.

You wanna write down Uribe's stats at the plate, you know, given that he's "a great SS"... :rolleyes:

Also, you might want to check out our #1 and #2 hitters' OBP last year and how they compare to that .348 number.

Did you learn anything at all when watching this offense peform when Pods was healthy and when it wasn't?

Apparently not.

It's Time
11-21-2005, 12:33 PM
Furcal is not a great player. He plays great defense, but his .284 average and .348 OBP last year for a leadoff hitter are nothing to write home about. His career OBP is .348, and it is pulled up greatly by the flukish .394 he put up his rookie year.
Furcal does not give us the speedy number two hitter Ozzie wants at a position where it is needed. He gives us another speedy number 1 hitter at a position we have filled. As I have said before, Furcal is a leadoff man, he doesn't hit 2. There are no indications he can bat 2 successfully. A great 1 hitter doesn't necessarily make a great 2 hitter. We dont know that he can be patient, take pitches to let Scotty steal, hit to the right side to move the runners along, etc... What boggles my mind is how you keep pleasuring yourself to the thought of Furcal in a Sox uni. He is overrated. He is going to make $8-10 million a year because someone will overpay. Is that amazing .348 OBP worth $10 million a year? I think Uribe will make $4 or 5 million next year. The extra money can be spent a lot better than on Furcal. At most, Furcal puts up a decent but not great average and OBP in the 2 hole and is a minimal upgrade over Uribe for an extra $5 million. At least, Uribe becomes the better player for less money. He may never hit 2, but he can still be a great player for us. And considering how your definition of great is .284/.348, he is closer to getting there.
If we needed a SS, I would be all for getting Furcal. We have a great shortstop, so there is no reason to spend the money on him.

Roman:

Uribe is a good shortstop, not a great one. You can do a lot worse then Uribe but I don't think you can put him in the class of Furcal. Defensively it's a wash and I might even give Furcal a slight edge. Offensively Juan has never seen a pitch he doesn't like and gets himself out more often than not.

If someone said I had a choice between Uribe and Furcal, I'd take Furcal.

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 12:40 PM
Roman:

Uribe is a good shortstop, not a great one. You can do a lot worse then Uribe but I don't think you can put him in the class of Furcal. Defensively, it's a wash and I might even give Furcal a slight edge. Offensively, Juan has never seen a pitch he doesn't like and gets himself out more often than not.

If someone said I had a choice between Uribe and Furcal, I'd take Furcal.
So, you think he is worth twice as much money? Going after Furcal means SS is an area of severe need, the highest priority area. It isn't. He is great defensively, but nothing more than a decent leadoff hitter. He doesn't deserve twice the money Uribe makes. It could be better spent elsewhere.

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 12:49 PM
You wanna write down Uribe's stats at the plate, you know, given that he's "a great SS"... :rolleyes:

Also, you might want to check out our #1 and #2 hitters' OBP last year and how they compare to that .348 number.

Did you learn anything at all when watching this offense peform when Pods was healthy and when it wasn't?

Apparently not.
Great SS needs to be put in quotes for Uribe? Give me a ****ing break. Oh wait, the great Randar is the all-knowing expert on defense. Uribe blows! Rowand is horrible! Uribe is not a 2 hitter (neither if Furcal, but thats ok). He doesn't have great numbers at the plate, but he also won't make $10 million next year.
I looked at our 1 and 2 hitters' OBPs last year. Podsednik put up .351 and Iguchi put up .342. Scotty's is better than Furcal's, and Iguchi's is 6 points lower. Big deal. Furcal is not this new age Rickey Henderson you seem to think he is. He is a GOOD leadoff hitter who plays great defense. Nothing more. And as I said before, we dont know that he could transition to #2.
Most important point - Neither Podsednik, Iguchi, or Uribe will make $10 million next year. They probably wont make that much combined. Spending that money on Furcal is throwing it down the drain. It could be spent much more wisely elsewhere.

It's Time
11-21-2005, 12:49 PM
So, you think he is worth twice as much money? Going after Furcal means SS is an area of severe need, the highest priority area. It isn't. He is great defensively, but nothing more than a decent leadoff hitter. He doesn't deserve twice the money Uribe makes. It could be better spent elsewhere.

When you say twice the money, also understand you are getting more then just a defensive whiz. You are getting a guy who COULD be a two hitter, which gives you the ability to move Iguchi down in the order. Furcal can also leadoff when Podsednik becomes expendable.

Uribe could do neither of the two things mentioned. Furcal changes the dynamic of any team he becomes a part of. You can't say the same about Juan.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 12:52 PM
When you say twice the money, also understand you are getting more then just a defensive whiz. You are getting a guy who COULD be a two hitter, which gives you the ability to move Iguchi down in the order. Furcal can also leadoff when Podsednik becomes expendable.

Uribe could do neither of the two things mentioned. Furcal changes the dynamic of any team he becomes a part of. You can't say them same about Juan.

Well said. Uribe makes hefty coin in the near future as well, so what is the value you place on upgrading the position from a #8 or #9 hitter to a #2 hitter? 4 or 5 million? That's about the difference you're going to pay in salary. Is that worth it as opposed to weakening your OF defense considerably by adding Juan Pierre instead of Rowand or Anderson (also taking on salary in those options)?

In addition, Juan has more trade value than Rowand.

voodoochile
11-21-2005, 12:52 PM
Roman:

Uribe is a good shortstop, not a great one. You can do a lot worse then Uribe but I don't think you can put him in the class of Furcal. Defensively it's a wash and I might even give Furcal a slight edge. Offensively Juan has never seen a pitch he doesn't like and gets himself out more often than not.

If someone said I had a choice between Uribe and Furcal, I'd take Furcal.

Sure, all things being equal, but is Furcal worth the extra $5M he is going to earn? That money would be better put into Giles (for example) and the infield gets left alone.

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 12:52 PM
When you say twice the money, also understand you are getting more then just a defensive whiz. You are getting a two hitter, which gives you the ability to move Iguchi down in the order. Furcal can also leadoff when Podsednik becomes expendable.

Uribe could do neither of the two things mentioned. Furcal changes the dynamic of any team he becomes a part of. You can't say them same about Juan.
YOU AREN'T GETTING A TWO HITTER!!! You are getting a LEADOFF MAN!
Everyone just assumes Furcal could step into the 2 hole and put up number as good as Iguchi did. There is no indication he could. 1 and 2 are different positions. Iguchi couldn't hit leadoff, they are not the same thing. I am not definatively saying Furcal couldn't hit 2, but there is no indication he can. Could Furcal take the pitches to let Scotty steal? Could he hit to the right side to move the runners along? I don't know.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 12:55 PM
Great SS needs to be put in quotes for Uribe? Give me a ****ing break. Oh wait, the great Randar is the all-knowing expert on defense. Uribe blows! Rowand is horrible! Uribe is not a 2 hitter (neither if Furcal, but thats ok). He doesn't have great numbers at the plate, but he also won't make $10 million next year.
I looked at our 1 and 2 hitters' OBPs last year. Podsednik put up .351 and Iguchi put up .342. Scotty's is better than Furcal's, and Iguchi's is 6 points lower. Big deal. Furcal is not this new age Rickey Henderson you seem to think he is. He is a GOOD leadoff hitter who plays great defense. Nothing more. And as I said before, we dont know that he could transition to #2.
Most important point - Neither Podsednik, Iguchi, or Uribe will make $10 million next year. They probably wont make that much combined. Spending that money on Furcal is throwing it down the drain. It could be spent much more wisely elsewhere.

Hey, don't act like a jagbag or overstate anything I've said to try to validate your previous posts. Facts are facts. Furcal is a better #2 hitter than Iguchi at a prime defensive position. You have to pay for that production, and if it makes other players better by allowing them to assume more natural roles (Iguchi), then you've upgraded not just one position.

You don't look at things in the bigger picture about how you balance your team both offensively and defensively, simultaneously overvaluing current players versus others on the market.

Sorry if you think I'm a jerk, but I don't tolerate stupidity, blind ignorance, or general lack of original thought. Good luck to you if you're going to base any argument around a word in quotation marks or not.

Uribe is a GOOD player, that's it. Not because "the great Randar" said, it's just the truth. Get over it.

It's Time
11-21-2005, 12:58 PM
Sure, all things being equal, but is Furcal worth the extra $5M he is going to earn? That money would be better put into Giles (for example) and the infield gets left alone.

I think so. Lets remember that Uribe is going to get a salary bump soon, so the difference is not going to be $5M. When a guy like Chipper Jones tells management he would restructure his deal by as much as $6M, it should tell you what Furcal can do.

I could pretty much guarantee that no White Sox player would eat some of their own money to keep Juan around.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 12:59 PM
Sure, all things being equal, but is Furcal worth the extra $5M he is going to earn? That money would be better put into Giles (for example) and the infield gets left alone.

That is a fair point, however they've stated the desire for adding a #2 hitter with more speed. What are the options?

You degrade the outfield defense if you play Pierre and Pods out there, not to mention likely picking up a little salary over the next few years as opposed to playing Rowand or Anderson in CF.

Is the overall difference in salary between Anderson/Furcal the same as Pierre/Uribe?

Which of those combos would you prefer? Isn't the total difference in price there closer to 1-2 million? I would say it is, and I think the Furcal/Anderson option is a better defensive option all around.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 01:00 PM
YOU AREN'T GETTING A TWO HITTER!!! You are getting a LEADOFF MAN!
Everyone just assumes Furcal could step into the 2 hole and put up number as good as Iguchi did. There is no indication he could. 1 and 2 are different positions. Iguchi couldn't hit leadoff, they are not the same thing. I am not definatively saying Furcal couldn't hit 2, but there is no indication he can. Could Furcal take the pitches to let Scotty steal? Could he hit to the right side to move the runners along? I don't know.

Look at his physical ability and the way he actually plays. Or are stats, box scores and overvaluation of the current players enough for you?

caulfield12
11-21-2005, 01:01 PM
There's NO WAY the Sox are trading Rowand for Pierre.

They MAY trade Marte for Pierre, which may then allow them to trade Rowand for somebody else, but Rowand for Pierre isn't going to happen--makes no sense.

If you think like KW, it makes perfect sense.

KW was never convinced until 2004 that Rowand was an everyday outfielder.

Pierre would be a one year rental that could be resigned if we dominated again next season or his $4 million or so would be cleared off the books for Young and Anderson in 2007.

With Rowand, we´re locked into him playing CF for 06 and 07, and that blocks Young in CF, with Anderson probably taking over RF with Dye leaving.

This is more about clearing Rowand´s 2007 salary off the books and creating the most competitive team for 2006 simultaneously.

voodoochile
11-21-2005, 01:04 PM
That is a fair point, however they've stated the desire for adding a #2 hitter with more speed. What are the options?

You degrade the outfield defense if you play Pierre and Pods out there, not to mention likely picking up a little salary over the next few years as opposed to playing Rowand or Anderson in CF.

Is the overall difference in salary between Anderson/Furcal the same as Pierre/Uribe?

Which of those combos would you prefer? Isn't the total difference in price there closer to 1-2 million? I would say it is, and I think the Furcal/Anderson option is a better defensive option all around.

Now that's a valid point but only if the Sox can land PK and a DH. If not, they have to make a run at some power hitters and that is going to cost money and they have to find room to play them. If Giles is one of those guys then they cannot put Anderson in CF and that changes your salary equation.

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 01:04 PM
Hey, don't act like a jagbag or overstate anything I've said to try to validate your previous posts. Facts are facts. Furcal is a better #2 hitter than Iguchi at a prime defensive position. You have to pay for that production, and if it makes other players better by allowing them to assume more natural roles (Iguchi), then you've upgraded not just one position.

You don't look at things in the bigger picture about how you balance your team both offensively and defensively, simultaneously overvaluing current players versus others on the market.

Sorry if you think I'm a jerk, but I don't tolerate stupidity, blind ignorance, or general lack of original thought. Good luck to you if you're going to base any argument around a word in quotation marks or not.

Uribe is a GOOD player, that's it. Not because "the great Randar" said, it's just the truth. Get over it.
Stupidity, bling ignorance, or a lack of original thought? Yey! Which one did I show you?:rolleyes:

I gave you the stats you asked for. Podsednik had a higher OBP and Iguchi's was a few points lower. Furcal's came in the 1 spot, Iguchi's in the 2. You saying that Furcal is a better 2 hitter than Iguchi is blind ignorance. He doesn't hit 2, so you dont know. Please explain to me how batting 1 and 2 is exactly the same thing.
I am not overvaluing Uribe. He is a great defensive shortstop. He is not a great hitter. Obviously, he cannot hit 2, and Furcal might be able to. However, you are overvaluing Furcal. You are making him out to be a future hall of famer. He is good, but not worth $10 million a year.

voodoochile
11-21-2005, 01:06 PM
Stupidity, bling ignorance, or a lack of original thought? Yey! Which one did I show you?:rolleyes:

I gave you the stats you asked for. Podsednik had a higher OBP and Iguchi's was a few points lower. Furcal's came in the 1 spot, Iguchi's in the 2. You saying that Furcal is a better 2 hitter than Iguchi is blind ignorance. He doesn't hit 2, so you dont know. Please explain to me how batting 1 and 2 is exactly the same thing.
I am not overvaluing Uribe. He is a great defensive shortstop. He is not a great hitter. Obviously, he cannot hit 2, and Furcal might be able to. However, you are overvaluing Furcal. You are making him out to be a future hall of famer. He is good, but not worth $10 million a year.

Perhaps you two can find a way to communicate about this stuff without all the name calling, trash talking and general hating?

Both of you are making good points in defense of his position so there really isn't a need to take the tension up a notch.

I know you two can discuss it like adults now prove I'm right...

It's Time
11-21-2005, 01:08 PM
:hawk (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=18#)
"I looooove a good debate".


http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_116706.jpg
"We need Furcal and I'll restructure my deal to the tune of $6M to keep him".

Randar68
11-21-2005, 01:29 PM
Now that's a valid point but only if the Sox can land PK and a DH. If not, they have to make a run at some power hitters and that is going to cost money and they have to find room to play them. If Giles is one of those guys then they cannot put Anderson in CF and that changes your salary equation.

That's true. I just haven't heard the Sox mentioned much in any Giles articles I've seen. Yankees, Cards, that's about it.

You can put Anderson in CF if you move Dye to 1st and acquire a DH. LOL! Now that's going to start that whole debate again...

Randar68
11-21-2005, 01:34 PM
Stupidity, bling ignorance, or a lack of original thought? Yey! Which one did I show you?

All of the above. Paraphrasing: "What we have is "great", don't change anything, our .260 hitting no-walk SS is "great", Rowand is great, yadda yadda yadda."

I gave you the stats you asked for. Podsednik had a higher OBP and Iguchi's was a few points lower. Furcal's came in the 1 spot, Iguchi's in the 2. You saying that Furcal is a better 2 hitter than Iguchi is blind ignorance. He doesn't hit 2, so you dont know. Please explain to me how batting 1 and 2 is exactly the same thing.
I am not overvaluing Uribe. He is a great defensive shortstop. He is not a great hitter. Obviously, he cannot hit 2, and Furcal might be able to. However, you are overvaluing Furcal. You are making him out to be a future hall of famer. He is good, but not worth $10 million a year.

I tell that by watching the kid play, not by a box score. You might want to try that approach. Furcal puts the ball in play, walks twice as often as Uribe, and is going to be asked to be a second leadoff hitter, just as Juan Pierre would. Can he bunt? Yes, Furcal can bunt. Is he as good a situational hitter as Iguchi? No, but he strikes out almost 50 fewer times a year.

JimH
11-21-2005, 01:50 PM
Furcal isn't coming here so what's the difference? He is definitely a better player than Uribe but he's not coming to the south side.

TomBradley72
11-21-2005, 01:56 PM
:hawk (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=18#)
"I looooove a good debate".


http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_116706.jpg
"We need Furcal and I'll restructure my deal to the tune of $6M to keep him".

This is right up there with the "Delgado and the National Anthem" discussions on some other threads. White Sox withdrawl is clearly getting to many of us. :cool:

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 02:01 PM
All of the above. Paraphrasing: "What we have is "great", don't change anything, our .260 hitting no-walk SS is "great", Rowand is great, yadda yadda yadda."



I tell that by watching the kid play, not by a box score. You might want to try that approach. Furcal puts the ball in play, walks twice as often as Uribe, and is going to be asked to be a second leadoff hitter, just as Juan Pierre would. Can he bunt? Yes, Furcal can bunt. Is he as good a situational hitter as Iguchi? No, but he strikes out almost 50 fewer times a year.
First of all, I was saying that Uribe and Rowand are very good defensive players. I didn't say that they are great overall players. If you don't agree with my arguement, it is fine. When you resort to insulting somone in a debate, it makes you look bad. I only wrote "the great Randar" in response to you seemingly thinking that the Sox are a horrible defensive team. You tear Rowand to shreds for his defense. He may not be the best defensive CF in baseball, but he is certainly very good. Same with Uribe. I watched almost every game the last 2 years. I have seen Uribe enough times to know that he is very good defensively. He is unorthodox, but he gets the job done.
I didn't say we shouldn't change anything, I merely think we can spend the extra $5mil better elsewhere. Furcal is a a very good player, I admitted that. He is great defensively, and he is a good leadoff man. However, I don't think that warrants $10 mil a year, or even a $5mil upgrade over Uribe. That is my point of view. If you think that is "horribly ignorant" or whatever the hell you said, that is fine. I wouldn't mind if the Sox do trade Rowand. While I do think his 2006 will be closer to 04 than 05, I still think Anderson can put up decent numbers. There is a market for Rowand right now, and we can use his salary elsewhere.
I admittedly havent seen Furcal play more than 20 times. He is a good leadoff hitter. I don't know what he can and can't do in the 2 hole. I dont know if he can still hit .284 while taking good pitches to let Scotty steal. I don't know if he can hit to the right side to move runners over. Obviously, Ozzie would have a better knowledge than most people on this. If Ozzie thinks Furcal can handle 2, the Sox will likely go after him.

veeter
11-21-2005, 02:08 PM
Old Roman I'm with you 100%. IF there's been any talk or rumors about the Sox looking at Furcal, it's just that, talk and rumors. Not going to happen. Although the Sox struggled at the two whole last year, so I see the need, for a two whole guy. I don't know where this stuff comes from. The other thing Uribe has over Furcal is performing tremendously in the world series. Ozzie wanting to move Iguchi down in the order might happen. But it wont be, to add a VERY expensive guy at a position, as you correctly put, THAT IS FILLED!!! I'm just glad KW is the GM.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 02:22 PM
Old Roman I'm with you 100%. IF there's been any talk or rumors about the Sox looking at Furcal, it's just that, talk and rumors. Not going to happen. Although the Sox struggled at the two whole last year, so I see the need, for a two whole guy. I don't know where this stuff comes from. The other thing Uribe has over Furcal is performing tremendously in the world series. Ozzie wanting to move Iguchi down in the order might happen. But it wont be, to add a VERY expensive guy at a position, as you correctly put, THAT IS FILLED!!! I'm just glad KW is the GM.

Uribe had the second lowest average among regular SS's in all of baseball last year. Are you reading that? He doesn't do anything on the bases for you, doesn't walk, and his power isn't enough to compensate... For a player that will be making OVER 8 million dollars over the next 2 years, I'd hardly equate that position as "filled" and disregard it as an opportunity for upgrade.

Then again, we don't have any holes in the order other than #3 and #4 hitters, right?

Look what Cabrera got last year... it's just what the market is for SS's, pure and simple. Again, if you can't get that #2 hitter at SS, now we're looking at replacing Rowand with Juan Pierre to significantly degrade our defense while also adding some salary... Why not kill 2 birds with one stone and go get an anchor for the infield???

kittle42
11-21-2005, 02:22 PM
I'm not sure what will happen this offseason and I don't know that they'll make any big moves. But what I do think is that if they are going to make any changes, the three areas that would be addressed (not including Konerko discussion) first would be

1. DH
2. CF
3. SS

That is in no way a knock against Rowand or Uribe. It's just that on a team where pretty much everyone is equal, those are the two positions that could most easily be upgraded.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 02:25 PM
You tear Rowand to shreds for his defense. He may not be the best defensive CF in baseball, but he is certainly very good.

I never said Uribe wasn't a good defensive SS, but he doesn't belong int he "great" category either.

And I criticize Rowand because people on here hold him up as a Gold Glover, a guy who is without fault in the OF, while any child with a modest baseball IQ can watch him misplay balls regularly, especially those hit in front of him or over his head). That said, he's better than Pods or Pierre in CF, but Anderson has better instincts. That's been my point all along, but I have been forced to point out Rowand's faults regularly in order to get some of these pollyanna's to see the forest for the trees... he's not as good as many make him out to be...

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 02:27 PM
Uribe had the second lowest average among regular SS's in all of baseball last year. Are you reading that? He doesn't do anything on the bases for you, doesn't walk, and his power isn't enough to compensate... For a player that will be making OVER 8 million dollars over the next 2 years, I'd hardly equate that position as "filled" and disregard it as an opportunity for upgrade.

Then again, we don't have any holes in the order other than #3 and #4 hitters, right?

Look what Cabrera got last year... it's just what the market is for SS's, pure and simple. Again, if you can't get that #2 hitter at SS, now we're looking at replacing Rowand with Juan Pierre to significantly degrade our defense while also adding some salary... Why not kill 2 birds with one stone and go get an anchor for the infield???
Well, if we signed Furcal, what would you do with Rowand? He wouldn't need to move to make room for Furcal like he would for Pierre. Would you keep him, dump him and rely on Anderson, or even pick up a free agent?

veeter
11-21-2005, 02:34 PM
The last month or so of the regular season Uribe did become diciplined. He walked more and worked counts. Yes, he's a free swinger, but he did get it under control. Eight million dollars over TWO years, to me isn't bad. We all agree that he's a stud defensively. The Sox just won the world series with HIM as the shortstop. This tells me, although not a "great" shortstop compared to the Jeters, Furcals etc. of the world, he IS great for the Sox. He proved that. The final two plays of the world series encapsulated Juan Uribe. He is White Sox baseball isn't he? He's an unorthodoxed, grinder who is a winner. I like that the Sox aren't big players in the, flavor of the month, free agent, whopping contract garbage, that takes place each year. We win with who we have. And I love who we have. Uribe is at the front of the line.

TheOldRoman
11-21-2005, 02:37 PM
The last month or so of the regular season Uribe did become diciplined. He walked more and worked counts. Yes, he's a free swinger, but he did get it under control. Eight million dollars over TWO years, to me isn't bad. We all agree that he's a stud defensively. The Sox just won the world series with HIM as the shortstop. This tells me, although not a "great" shortstop compared to the Jeters, Furcals etc. of the world, he IS great for the Sox. He proved that. The final two plays of the world series encapsulated Juan Uribe. He is White Sox baseball isn't he. He's an orthodoxed, grinder who is a winner. I like that the Sox aren't big players in the, flavor of the month, free agent, whopping contract garbage, that takes place each year. We win with who we have. And I love who we have. Uribe is a the front of the line.
I get your point, but your argument lost all legitimacy when you referred to Jeter as a great shortstop. Sorry.

veeter
11-21-2005, 02:40 PM
I get your point, but your argument lost all legitimacy when you referred to Jeter as a great shortstop. Sorry. He's just who I picked. Jeter being over rated is another story. Throw in whomever you think is great. You get my point.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 02:47 PM
Well, if we signed Furcal, what would you do with Rowand? He wouldn't need to move to make room for Furcal like he would for Pierre. Would you keep him, dump him and rely on Anderson, or even pick up a free agent?

I would play Anderson every day in CF and hit him 9th. No pressure. I would use Rowand in trade to acquire that DH and #3 hitter or any other need we may have, same as Uribe.

JimH
11-21-2005, 02:48 PM
The last month or so of the regular season Uribe did become diciplined. He walked more and worked counts. Yes, he's a free swinger, but he did get it under control. Eight million dollars over TWO years, to me isn't bad. We all agree that he's a stud defensively. The Sox just won the world series with HIM as the shortstop. This tells me, although not a "great" shortstop compared to the Jeters, Furcals etc. of the world, he IS great for the Sox. He proved that. The final two plays of the world series encapsulated Juan Uribe. He is White Sox baseball isn't he? He's an orthodoxed, grinder who is a winner. I like that the Sox aren't big players in the, flavor of the month, free agent, whopping contract garbage, that takes place each year. We win with who we have. And I love who we have. Uribe is at the front of the line.

Great post.

Just about every player on the White Sox could technically be upgraded, there is always someone better. But IMO the last place the White Sox are looking to upgrade is SS (and catcher too).

Outfield ... just speculating here but I do not see the White Sox turning over a starting OF spot to a rookie, given they are defending a title. Not a slight at Anderson at all. But he has holes in his game too, plus he and Rowand are similar type players ... RH hitters, strike out a bunch, have some pop, etc.

It is unorthodox and usually detrimental to a top prospect to have him be the 4th OF but I can see it happening with Anderson for this team. KW says he's ready, and every once in a while a guy improves by being worked in gradually. Maybe Anderson is that type, none of us know. Again, it would be an unusual approach but I would see him playing a lot, learning, and being a guy to plug in immediately with injuries or the nicks and bruises that go along with a lengthy season. Personally I always prefer a veteran for that role but Guillen and KW know things we don't.

If Rowand is not on this team, I can see Anderson in that role.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 02:48 PM
Haven't heard it mentioned much, but what about getting Nomar to DH platoon with Frank?

I'm not a big fan of the move, but it may be an option...

Randar68
11-21-2005, 02:50 PM
Great post.

Just about every player on the White Sox could technically be upgraded, there is always someone better. But IMO the last place the White Sox are looking to upgrade is SS (and catcher too).

Outfield ... just speculating here but I do not see the White Sox turning over a starting OF spot to a rookie, given they are defending a title. Not a slight at Anderson at all. But he has holes in his game too, plus he and Rowand are similar type players ... RH hitters, strike out a bunch, have some pop, etc.

It is unorthodox and usually detrimental to a top prospect to have him be the 4th OF but I can see it happening with Anderson for this team. KW says he's ready, and every once in a while a guy improves by being worked in gradually. Maybe Anderson is that type, none of us know. Again, it would be an unusual approach but I would see him playing a lot, learning, and being a guy to plug in immediately with injuries or the nicks and bruises that go along with a lengthy season. Personally I always prefer a veteran for that role but Guillen and KW know things we don't.

If they are similar players in non-critical offensive roles, why would you play the guy making 8 million over 2 years as opposed to your $330k prospect with the higher ceiling.

Being defending champs has not one thing to do with that decision. Which makes us a better team? Which allows us to make other moves?

TaylorStSox
11-21-2005, 02:52 PM
Well said. Uribe makes hefty coin in the near future as well, so what is the value you place on upgrading the position from a #8 or #9 hitter to a #2 hitter? 4 or 5 million? That's about the difference you're going to pay in salary. Is that worth it as opposed to weakening your OF defense considerably by adding Juan Pierre instead of Rowand or Anderson (also taking on salary in those options)?

In addition, Juan has more trade value than Rowand.


Paying 10 Mil. to Furcal is just stupid. That's all there is to it.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 02:53 PM
Paying 10 Mil. to Furcal is just stupid. That's all there is to it.

You're right, much better off paying 5 million to a .252 hitting SS... :rolleyes:

TaylorStSox
11-21-2005, 02:54 PM
You're right, much better off paying 5 million to a .252 hitting SS... :rolleyes:

Yeah, that .020 BA is worth 5 million dollars.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 02:55 PM
Yeah, that .020 BA is worth 5 million dollars.

or those 40 SB's or 50 points of OBP... nevermind them... :(:

patbooyah
11-21-2005, 02:58 PM
the thing about uribe is that he did turn it on during september, hitting over .300. at one point i would have been fine with trading him, but if walker figured something out that will help with his approach, then count me in.

he also had ten walks, a third of his season total, and only 10 K's, a seventh of his season total. it seemed like he had turned a corner... to me, at least.

throw in his solid D, and i would be sad to see him go.

veeter
11-21-2005, 03:02 PM
Great post.

Just about every player on the White Sox could technically be upgraded, there is always someone better. But IMO the last place the White Sox are looking to upgrade is SS (and catcher too).

Outfield ... just speculating here but I do not see the White Sox turning over a starting OF spot to a rookie, given they are defending a title. Not a slight at Anderson at all. But he has holes in his game too, plus he and Rowand are similar type players ... RH hitters, strike out a bunch, have some pop, etc.

It is unorthodox and usually detrimental to a top prospect to have him be the 4th OF but I can see it happening with Anderson for this team. KW says he's ready, and every once in a while a guy improves by being worked in gradually. Maybe Anderson is that type, none of us know. Again, it would be an unusual approach but I would see him playing a lot, learning, and being a guy to plug in immediately with injuries or the nicks and bruises that go along with a lengthy season. Personally I always prefer a veteran for that role but Guillen and KW know things we don't.

If Rowand is not on this team, I can see Anderson in that role. The Uribe/ AJ comparison is perfect. There are better catchers but who wants them, not me. I like Anderson as the fourth outfielder because Ozzie WILL get him in.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 03:10 PM
Haven't heard it mentioned much, but what about getting Nomar to DH platoon with Frank?

I'm not a big fan of the move, but it may be an option...
That's a solid idea. And a very "KW" kind of move. While not a true power hitter, Nomar's still a very good one with 30HR potential, solid avg/obp.

Intersting thought: Does KW wait to see how things start out next year and then possibly deal Rowand to pick up an '06 FA? This would include Nick Johnson, Aubrey Huff, Melvin Mora, Carlos Lee, Juan Pierre, Milton Bradley, Jose Guillen. Guys who for the most part might not be available now, but could be in-season. Risk there is that they get dealt/resigned early, but if you add a Nomar and Frank gets healthy, you might move in a different direction than if say Nomar goes down and Frank's not ready.

Could explain the relative lack of movement on a #3 hitter.

Deuce
11-21-2005, 03:35 PM
The only thing Furcal is better than Uribe at is stealing bases and driving while drunk.What are you talking about?!?!? Furcal sucks at driving drunk. He keeps getting caught, after all. :redneck

Jjav829
11-21-2005, 03:38 PM
Haven't heard it mentioned much, but what about getting Nomar to DH platoon with Frank?

I'm not a big fan of the move, but it may be an option...

I've beaten the Nomar drum enough around here, but I think he would be a nice addition as a DH and backup at several infield positions. That said, I'd rather have someone like Thome or Delgado at DH, if possible.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 03:43 PM
I've beaten the Nomar drum enough around here, but I think he would be a nice addition as a DH and backup at several infield positions. That said, I'd rather have someone like Thome or Delgado at DH, if possible.

FWIW, the Marlin's board reports things like discussons of Yusimeiro Petit, Hayden Penn, and Jon Lester as "possible targets" in a Delgado trade. Source - Ken Rosenthal, so as I said - FWIW.

Which means you want him - bye bye Chris Young! Might explain why the talk started with KW looking at Delgado and has quieted/shifted significantly to Thome.

Jjav829
11-21-2005, 03:47 PM
We are talking about the WORLD SERIES CHAMPION Aaron Rowand, right? All the White Sox should do is resign Konerko, pick up somebody decent to replace Crazy Carl (if Frank can't go) move Duque to the pen, and McCarthy to the rotation. It seems like we all forgot that we just won the World Freakin' Series. We are also in the unique position of potentially returning the exact same team that just went wire to wire and dominated the playoffs. Unless somebody comes in with an insane offer for Pauly, the Sox will be able to match. They have recently and will make more money now than ever before. DO NOT FIX WHAT AIN'T BROKE!

Sorry, but that's a bad argument. You know why a lot of champions don't repeat? Because they think just like this. They think that because they won the World Series with this current team they don't need to make any moves. That isn't true. Not every White Sox player from this years team will perform the same in 2006. That's just sports. You can bet that at least one player who was a significant contributor to the 2005 White Sox will have an off year, get injured, or just start to decline overall. Also, other teams are getting better. You think the Indians are sitting back saying, "Well, we couldn't beat the Sox with this roster last year, but let's give it one more try?" Hell no. They are out there trying to improve their team so that they can win the World Series. Winning the World Series isn't an excuse for not trying to improve your team.

Dynasties become dynasties because they are always looking to get better. Look at the Patriots. In the 03-04 season they won the Super Bowl with Antowain Smith and Kevin Faulk doing a mediocre job of running the ball. Scott Pioli realized that despite the fact that the Patriots won the Super Bowl, their running game wasn't as good as it could be. So what did he do? He went and swung a trade to bring in Corey Dillon. Sure enough, the next year Dillon had the best year of his career, rushing for 1600+ yards and 12 TD while helping lead the Patriots to defend their championship. That's how you sustain success over many years unless your team is just so loaded with talent that you can't possibly improve. The Sox aren't in that position. There are areas we can improve on in order to increase our chances of repeating next year.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 03:52 PM
Dynasties become dynasties because they are always looking to get better. Look at the Patriots. In the 03-04 season they won the Super Bowl with Antowain Smith and Kevin Faulk doing a mediocre job of running the ball. Scott Pioli realized that despite the fact that the Patriots won the Super Bowl, their running game wasn't as good as it could be. So what did he do? He went and swung a trade to bring in Corey Dillon. Sure enough, the next year Dillon had the best year of his career, rushing for 1600+ yards and 12 TD while helping lead the Patriots to defend their championship. That's how you sustain success over many years unless your team is just so loaded with talent that you can't possibly improve. The Sox aren't in that position. There are areas we can improve on in order to increase our chances of repeating next year.

[slow clap]

I for one would love to see KW begin an annual tradition of picking up a high-salaried, short contract guy to come in for a year and help them repeat. My pick for '06 is Sheffield, assuming he'll come. I bet you can get him & cash from the Yanks for Rowand. Nothing against ARow - but Anderson+Sheff and the option to plug in Frank and bench Brian (moving Pods to CF) on occasion is a pretty solid upgrade, despite the drop in D on the ocasionals that Pods plays CF.

And assuming Giles isn't going to be arriving at O'Hare/Midway anytime soon.

santo=dorf
11-21-2005, 04:00 PM
You're right, much better off paying 5 million to a .252 hitting SS... :rolleyes:
Give it a rest already.

$5 million is the most Juan will make in his contract. Wait until the 2006 offseason to bitch about his 2007 salary. How much will Furcal make in his final year in his expected contract? $12 million? $13 million?

I would really like to see your justification of paying a .284 hitting SS $13 million.

santo=dorf
11-21-2005, 04:03 PM
or those 40 SB's or 50 points of OBP... nevermind them... :(:

I rather use the money you want to throw at Furcal for Thome, Delgado or Giles for their even higher OBP's (not too mention their higher averages and power numbers.)

The Deacon
11-21-2005, 04:14 PM
FWIW, the Marlin's board reports things like discussons of Yusimeiro Petit, Hayden Penn, and Jon Lester as "possible targets" in a Delgado trade. Source - Ken Rosenthal, so as I said - FWIW.

Which means you want him - bye bye Chris Young! Might explain why the talk started with KW looking at Delgado and has quieted/shifted significantly to Thome.

Thome also makes more sense b/c Philly has to get rid of him if they want Howard to play full-time. There are so many different ways the SOX can approach a Thome trade. They can take alot of his $$ and not give up much in terms of talent or they can give some talent and not pay much of his contact. Kenny excels in creative deals like this. I dont see the SOX going to the free agent market much this off-season. I dont think there is a chance they will sign Giles (and I love Giles), he's going to get some serious $$$, it's just not Kenny's style.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 04:17 PM
Give it a rest already.

$5 million is the most Juan will make in his contract. Wait until the 2006 offseason to bitch about his 2007 salary. How much will Furcal make in his final year in his expected contract? $12 million? $13 million?

I would really like to see your justification of paying a .284 hitting SS $13 million.

On average Uribe and Rowand make ~8 million each over the next 2 years... ~6.5 in 2006 and 10+ in 2007

Look at what SS's around the league make. You really think that's overpaying for a SS with Furcal's abilities in addition to being a #1 or #2 hitter? Is he ARod or Tejada? No, but he's in that next tier. He's better than Renteria or Cabrera.

I like Uribe, but if they're looking at Pierre, downgrading the OF defensively, and taking on SOME salary, then getting Furcal makes more sense to me. Allows you to play Anderson in CF and hit him at the bottom of the order while filling the #2 spot with a guy at SS, one of the positions that best allows you to build at the power positions at other spots in the field where it is easier to find.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 04:21 PM
I rather use the money you want to throw at Furcal for Thome, Delgado or Giles for their even higher OBP's (not too mention their higher averages and power numbers.)

Me too, but they're talking about an OF of Pierre and Pods in CF and LF? YIKES! If they're that desperate to address the #2 spot int he order they should sign Furcal, get it taken care of without a defensive downgrade, and trade Uribe and Rowand's salaries to pay for the move.

In short, given the money not being ALL that much different over the next 2 years, I'd prefer Furcal/Anderson over Pierre or Rowand with Uribe.

SoxSpeed22
11-21-2005, 04:31 PM
:fobbgod:"You always have to be upgrading, otherwise you're screwed."
Unfortunately, the only good idea for upgrading is at DH. I highly doubt that Furcal will be in a Sox uniform next year. Uribe and Rowand anchored the defense that was good enough to win a World Series. I don't think there are any better options for those two positions. Unless you want to get Alex Gonzalez, who was on the Fish and is a free agent.
DH on the other hand. Thome, when healthy, is a better option than Carl. Another possibility is Scott Hatteberg, a free agent. But first things, first, and that's resigning Konerko. I'd avoid Nomar like the Plegg, or any other fatal diseases. Most of you are not superstitious, but I am. He still has it from Boston.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 04:36 PM
Me too, but they're talking about an OF of Pierre and Pods in CF and LF? YIKES! If they're that desperate to address the #2 spot int he order they should sign Furcal, get it taken care of without a defensive downgrade, and trade Uribe and Rowand's salaries to pay for the move.

In short, given the money not being ALL that much different over the next 2 years, I'd prefer Furcal/Anderson over Pierre or Rowand with Uribe.

Seems odd if KW's not at least considering that option. So I gather that they either think Furcal's not worth what he'll get (or will be priced out of their range), or that they think doing a Pierre deal will be sufficiently cheaper to enable them to make other moves, be they adding another guy like Thome or resigning a Garland/AJ.

I have no idea which one it is, but because KW's a smart guy, and seems to look at any & all options, I think it;s safe to say if he's not pursuing Furcal, there's a good reason for it.

TaylorStSox
11-21-2005, 04:46 PM
On average Uribe and Rowand make ~8 million each over the next 2 years... ~6.5 in 2006 and 10+ in 2007

Look at what SS's around the league make. You really think that's overpaying for a SS with Furcal's abilities in addition to being a #1 or #2 hitter? Is he ARod or Tejada? No, but he's in that next tier. He's better than Renteria or Cabrera.

I like Uribe, but if they're looking at Pierre, downgrading the OF defensively, and taking on SOME salary, then getting Furcal makes more sense to me. Allows you to play Anderson in CF and hit him at the bottom of the order while filling the #2 spot with a guy at SS, one of the positions that best allows you to build at the power positions at other spots in the field where it is easier to find.


You're going to base Furcal's worth on 2 of the 3 worst SS contracts (the worst being Jeter) in baseball. You don't think other teams look at Renteria and Cabrera's contracts as mistakes?

Furcal's a better player than Uribe. I'd be a fool to think otherwise. However, he's not twice the player.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 04:50 PM
Seems odd if KW's not at least considering that option. So I gather that they either think Furcal's not worth what he'll get (or will be priced out of their range), or that they think doing a Pierre deal will be sufficiently cheaper to enable them to make other moves, be they adding another guy like Thome or resigning a Garland/AJ.

I have no idea which one it is, but because KW's a smart guy, and seems to look at any & all options, I think it;s safe to say if he's not pursuing Furcal, there's a good reason for it.

I agree and it appears highly unlikely they'll go in that direction. That being said, they cannot afford to strike out on Delgado/Thome/Helton/Giles, whoever. They must get a #3 hitter. If Dye is the #4 and Iguchi the #5 (because they got Pierre) and they get a LH'd #3 hitter, I'd be far less worried than if they went into 2006 with nobody at #3 and Konerko at #4...

Randar68
11-21-2005, 04:51 PM
Furcal's a better player than Uribe. I'd be a fool to think otherwise. However, he's not twice the player.

I just don't look at it as working that way.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 05:01 PM
One more thing. People are all willing to pay a career .279-.349-.488 hitter who is slower than a dinosaur and average defensively 13 million a year coming off a career year in which the "slugger" only produced a .909 OPS...

But, we're not willing to pay an All-Star SS who is a top-of-the-order hitter and would steal over 50 bases playing for Ozzie 10-12 million a year? What's wrong with this picture? Oh yeah, it's the "Hometown Hero Syndrome"...

nodiggity59
11-21-2005, 05:17 PM
One more thing. People are all willing to pay a career .279-.349-.488 hitter who is slower than a dinosaur and average defensively 13 million a year coming off a career year in which the "slugger" only produced a .909 OPS...

But, we're not willing to pay an All-Star SS who is a top-of-the-order hitter and would steal over 50 bases playing for Ozzie 10-12 million a year? What's wrong with this picture? Oh yeah, it's the "Hometown Hero Syndrome"...

It's called "Trying to defend your WS Title" syndrom, IMO. Players who can fill the 3-4 role are hard to trade for. Signing a FA allows us to bring in a guy who can do that w/out weakening the rest of the team. Furcal is not worth the money to us RIGHT NOW b/c we already have an excellent top of the order 1-2 combo and a good fielding shortstop. We NEED two 3-4 hitters, and throwing $10mil at Furcal doesn't give us that (I don't believe in Iguchi for the 3 hole).

The Sox are definitely in a "win now" mode and abstract considerations like who's worth the money, who's more "valuable" are pretty pointless, IMO. Find out what we NEED to fill holes, get it, and ride our pitching to the title.

It's funny that people are arguing so much over lineup changes. It seems clear to me that if we get pitching like last year, we'll be a playoff contender. If we don't, all the lineup moves in the world won't transform this club into a World Series contender.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 05:23 PM
It's called "Trying to defend your WS Title" syndrom, IMO. Players who can fill the 3-4 role are hard to trade for. Signing a FA allows us to bring in a guy who can do that w/out weakening the rest of the team. Furcal is not worth the money to us RIGHT NOW b/c we already have an excellent top of the order 1-2 combo and a good fielding shortstop. We NEED two 3-4 hitters, and throwing $10mil at Furcal doesn't give us that (I don't believe in Iguchi for the 3 hole).

The Sox are definitely in a "win now" mode and abstract considerations like who's worth the money, who's more "valuable" are pretty pointless, IMO. Find out what we NEED to fill holes, get it, and ride our pitching to the title.

It's funny that people are arguing so much over lineup changes. It seems clear to me that if we get pitching like last year, we'll be a playoff contender. If we don't, all the lineup moves in the world won't transform this club into a World Series contender.

I don't disagree, but the counterpoint is that there are only 2 players available in the FA market to fit your description... Konerko (13 million for a career .850 OPS slow 1B?) and Giles (getting up there in age, but still my preference)... outside of these options, the FA crop is barren for 3/4 hitters this year.

That being said, there are several high-profile veterans on the trade block who would fit nicely for out #3/#4 holes. However, they ain't cheap (salary) and will cost us considerably in terms of the commodities we must give up to acquire them.

That being said, in lieu of pursuing Pierre, I was simply offering Furcal as the counter-point to addressing the #2 hitter role that Ozzie/KW feel they need to address. If you're going to get Pierre, you're paying more for him that Rowand, downgrading the defense, and blocking your best prospects, all in one move. To me, since the cost difference is small between Uribe/Rowand and Anderson/Furcal (at least for the next 2 years), that is a better option.

If we go back to assuming they cannot afford a #2 hitter in addition to 3 and 4 hitters, then I am with you.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 05:26 PM
It's funny that people are arguing so much over lineup changes. It seems clear to me that if we get pitching like last year, we'll be a playoff contender. If we don't, all the lineup moves in the world won't transform this club into a World Series contender.

The people arguing for considerable lineup changes are the ones who don't want to walk such a fine line in 2006. A little insurance by beefing up the offense would benefit everyone by taking some of the pressure off the pitching.

Others have attachments to certain players and just think we should sit still and roll the dice. Not an option I like, frankly.

DaleJRFan
11-21-2005, 05:46 PM
Others have attachments to certain players and just think we should sit still and roll the dice. Not an option I like, frankly.

C'mon Randar, you know I just don't want to have to pay someone to change the letters on my Rowand jersey :redneck

TaylorStSox
11-21-2005, 06:01 PM
The people arguing for considerable lineup changes are the ones who don't want to walk such a fine line in 2006. A little insurance by beefing up the offense would benefit everyone by taking some of the pressure off the pitching.

Others have attachments to certain players and just think we should sit still and roll the dice. Not an option I like, frankly.

I definitely agree with this. Also, I'm looking for one of our big 4 to go down this year. They all pitched a ton of pressure innings last year.

veeter
11-21-2005, 07:10 PM
The people arguing for considerable lineup changes are the ones who don't want to walk such a fine line in 2006. A little insurance by beefing up the offense would benefit everyone by taking some of the pressure off the pitching.

Others have attachments to certain players and just think we should sit still and roll the dice. Not an option I like, frankly. I don't buy the argument that, one run games can't possibly go the Sox way again next year. And adding offense in no way ensures they wont play one run games next year. I'll roll the dice and say they win 95 next year with the same team. If I'm emotionally attached to certain players it's because they just delivered a world championship. You seem to want to make changes just so you can tell yourself, "I don't let sentimentality get in the way of success." It's not like we squeezed the last drop out of these guys. Most of them are entering their prime.

JimH
11-21-2005, 08:03 PM
If they are similar players in non-critical offensive roles, why would you play the guy making 8 million over 2 years as opposed to your $330k prospect with the higher ceiling.

Being defending champs has not one thing to do with that decision. Which makes us a better team? Which allows us to make other moves?

Well, as usual, you have your one way of looking at a discussion and that's it, so whatever you think is just fine with me.

Let's see ... maybe because the prospect still has holes in his game, as I mentioned? I know you've got googoo eyes for Anderson, but it doesn't make him the be all end all.

Who said they're non critical offensive roles? That's your take. My take is, Guillen wants speed at the top, they aren't gonna pursue Furcal no matter how many times you beat that drum, and it appears they like Juan Pierre. I prefer to deal in realities, i.e. what the manager said in his season ending press conference.

And yeah, being defending champs has a lot to do with it. They're gonna make moves that give them the best chance to repeat. They may not be the moves YOU like, but so be it.

Flight #24
11-21-2005, 08:10 PM
I don't buy the argument that, one run games can't possibly go the Sox way again next year. And adding offense in no way ensures they wont play one run games next year. I'll roll the dice and say they win 95 next year with the same team. If I'm emotionally attached to certain players it's because they just delivered a world championship. You seem to want to make changes just so you can tell yourself, "I don't let sentimentality get in the way of success." It's not like we squeezed the last drop out of these guys. Most of them are entering their prime.

It's not because of 1-run games. It's not because our guys are a problem. It's quite simply because the offseason is the time when you try to improve. Everyone else is trying to do so, and if you're not, then you're at risk of being passed up. So quite simply, it's an exercise in trying to put out the best team that you can on 4/1.

If that means that you send a good player and solid contributor away to make room for a better one, so be it. That's not a reflection on the guy that's sent away - that guy was a contributor to a championship team and will always be.

But it's a simple fact that if you're not at least trying to get better, you're getting worse because others sure as hell are improving.

Tragg
11-21-2005, 09:13 PM
To me, since the cost difference is small between Uribe/Rowand and Anderson/Furcal (at least for the next 2 years), that is a better option.

If we go back to assuming they cannot afford a #2 hitter in addition to 3 and 4 hitters, then I am with you.

That's a really Interesting point. Furcal brings that speed into the 2 hitter role, without killing our defense like Pierre would. And the total cost isn't that much more.
And like you said, there are no hitters on the market except for Konerko and Giles.
Then package Rowand, Marte et al and try to get Delgado in here. Keeps him away from the Yankees while meeting our needs.
Boy would we be good.
Plus, Furcal's a FA. And we really need to sign one FA, so we don't have to trade so much. I'm okay with trading prospects with 2 exceptions: Young and McCarthy.

JimH
11-21-2005, 09:28 PM
That's a really Interesting point. Furcal brings that speed into the 2 hitter role, without killing our defense like Pierre would. And the total cost isn't that much more.
And like you said, there are no hitters on the market except for Konerko and Giles.
Then package Rowand, Marte et al and try to get Delgado in here. Keeps him away from the Yankees while meeting our needs.
Boy would we be good.
Plus, Furcal's a FA. And we really need to sign one FA, so we don't have to trade so much. I'm okay with trading prospects with 2 exceptions: Young and McCarthy.

They are not going to sign Furcal. They just aren't.

caulfield12
11-22-2005, 07:59 AM
That's a really Interesting point. Furcal brings that speed into the 2 hitter role, without killing our defense like Pierre would. And the total cost isn't that much more.
And like you said, there are no hitters on the market except for Konerko and Giles.
Then package Rowand, Marte et al and try to get Delgado in here. Keeps him away from the Yankees while meeting our needs.
Boy would we be good.
Plus, Furcal's a FA. And we really need to sign one FA, so we don't have to trade so much. I'm okay with trading prospects with 2 exceptions: Young and McCarthy.

How is paying Uribe $4 million versus paying Furcal $9-10 million an insignificant difference for this franchise? It definitely eliminates us from adding that extra hitter we need as insurance for Thomas in the 3-4 hole, assuming we also retain Konerko.

We end up with the Scott Hattebergs and Durazo´s of the world instead of Delgado, Giles, Abreu, Thome, Piazza, Sheffield, etc.

Chipper Jones restructured his contract, and Furcal has a 90% likelihood of returning to Atlanta at this point in time.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 09:52 AM
Well, as usual, you have your one way of looking at a discussion and that's it, so whatever you think is just fine with me.

Let's see ... maybe because the prospect still has holes in his game, as I mentioned? I know you've got googoo eyes for Anderson, but it doesn't make him the be all end all.

Who said they're non critical offensive roles? That's your take. My take is, Guillen wants speed at the top, they aren't gonna pursue Furcal no matter how many times you beat that drum, and it appears they like Juan Pierre. I prefer to deal in realities, i.e. what the manager said in his season ending press conference.

And yeah, being defending champs has a lot to do with it. They're gonna make moves that give them the best chance to repeat. They may not be the moves YOU like, but so be it.

Rowand and Uribe are 7 and 9 hitters, respectively. Anderson would be the 9 hitter and Furcal would get you that #2 hitter.

I guess swapping Uribe for Anderson is a significant downgrade (:rolleyes: ) and upgrading Rowand into a #2 hitter who could easily steal over 50 bags playing for Ozzie isn't upgrading a critical offensive role, huh?

I've never said they were actually pursuing Furcal or that they ever would. Reading is a skill. I've said that is what I would do, PARTICULARLY if they are going to be looking at Pierre to play next to Pods in the OF at a not so different overall salary for the 2 positions (SS/CF).

My one way of looking at things? Furcal >>> Uribe. We've talked about at least half a dozen different possible scenarios in this thread, but hey, I can ony look at things one way. :?:

Randar68
11-22-2005, 09:55 AM
How is paying Uribe $4 million versus paying Furcal $9-10 million an insignificant difference for this franchise? It definitely eliminates us from adding that extra hitter we need as insurance for Thomas in the 3-4 hole, assuming we also retain Konerko.


Uribe + Rowand = ~16.5 million over the next 2 years. First 2 years of Furcal's contract would be around 20 million overall. Furcal + Anderson is only about 4 million difference in salary over the first 2 years, meanwhile getting yourself that #2 hitter while, IMO, upgrading 2 positions defensively, albeit marginal improvements.

The option of Pierre + Uribe, is what prompted the Furcal talk to be brought up as a counter-point if they are intent on addressing the #2 hole. Uribe + Pierre is more expensive than Rowand+Uribe, and would further shring the salary difference between the Furcal + Anderson option.

Again, I agree that a #3 hitter in addition to #4 (Konerko) should be the top priorities, even if that means Iguchi going back to the 2 spot next year. Nobody is saying they would prioritize the #2 spot over Giles, Delgado, Thome, Helton, etc. However, the last tidbit from Ozzie/KW indicated they were looking at Pierre in the #2 hole and these discussions simply deal with that idea and any alternative ideas that may be out there to address the #2 hole.

bobowhite
11-22-2005, 10:15 AM
One thing I can guarentee about this team. The White Sox will not weaken themselves defensively just to put an extra bat in the lineup. Although we all know there will be no deal for Manny Ramirez involving the White Sox, if we replace Uribe or Rowand, it will be with player(s) of equal or better defensive skills. Really, anything offensive you get from a great defensive shortstop in the AL is gravy on the biscuits. I don't see Uribe going anywhere. Furcal may be as good and he may be a better bat, but he'd be coming into an entirely existing infield and I doubt he'd captain them as well as Uribe did and will do.

Rowand did make leaps and bounds this year defensively. He regressed with the bat and I think he has reached the maximum trade value he will have. The Sox might trade him and acquire Pierre, but I can't see any other outfielder whom the Sox have any serious interest in. The Sox farm system is loaded with a very solid next-generation of outfielders. The White Sox will not mess that up.

I think there is a fall-back plan should the Sox loose Konerko. I think the Sox will do a little tinkering elsewhere. Ozzie seems committed to moving Iguchi down the order to a more power position. I think he might consider third if the Sox do acquire a good speed #2 hitter. Otherwise, Iguchi may bat fifth or sixth (depending on righty-lefty.)

Randar68
11-22-2005, 10:48 AM
One thing I can guarentee about this team. The White Sox will not weaken themselves defensively just to put an extra bat in the lineup.


The Sox might trade him and acquire Pierre, but I can't see any other outfielder whom the Sox have any serious interest in.

That's a pretty severe contradiction.

JimH
11-22-2005, 01:26 PM
Rowand and Uribe are 7 and 9 hitters, respectively. Anderson would be the 9 hitter and Furcal would get you that #2 hitter.

I guess swapping Uribe for Anderson is a significant downgrade (:rolleyes: ) and upgrading Rowand into a #2 hitter who could easily steal over 50 bags playing for Ozzie isn't upgrading a critical offensive role, huh?

I've never said they were actually pursuing Furcal or that they ever would. Reading is a skill. I've said that is what I would do, PARTICULARLY if they are going to be looking at Pierre to play next to Pods in the OF at a not so different overall salary for the 2 positions (SS/CF).

My one way of looking at things? Furcal >>> Uribe. We've talked about at least half a dozen different possible scenarios in this thread, but hey, I can ony look at things one way. :?:

Are you off the wall?

You've been advocating going after Furcal all thru this thread.

Maybe you should type less, and read what you say more.

With you, though, I don't think that's possible. It requires flexibility of thought.

caulfield12
11-22-2005, 01:35 PM
Uribe + Rowand = ~16.5 million over the next 2 years. First 2 years of Furcal's contract would be around 20 million overall. Furcal + Anderson is only about 4 million difference in salary over the first 2 years, meanwhile getting yourself that #2 hitter while, IMO, upgrading 2 positions defensively, albeit marginal improvements.

The option of Pierre + Uribe, is what prompted the Furcal talk to be brought up as a counter-point if they are intent on addressing the #2 hole. Uribe + Pierre is more expensive than Rowand+Uribe, and would further shring the salary difference between the Furcal + Anderson option.

Again, I agree that a #3 hitter in addition to #4 (Konerko) should be the top priorities, even if that means Iguchi going back to the 2 spot next year. Nobody is saying they would prioritize the #2 spot over Giles, Delgado, Thome, Helton, etc. However, the last tidbit from Ozzie/KW indicated they were looking at Pierre in the #2 hole and these discussions simply deal with that idea and any alternative ideas that may be out there to address the #2 hole.

Of course, the biggest assumption we are all making is that Anderson is ready to be an everyday CF in the big leagues. If you look at the career trajectories of Rowand and Crede, it definitely took them some time. Of course, they are different players, but Rowand still hasn´t proven enough to me.

I don´t mind the idea of renting Pierre for one year, but I have a hard time imagining defending a WS Championship with Anderson playing 150 games. I have more faith in him than Borchard, certainly, but that Seattle glimpse against Felix Hernandez doesn´t quite convince me he´s ready to handle the pressure of playing everyday in the big leagues. Yeah, I know, he could be benched selectively against tough pitching....which Ozzie did....but he really struggled after that Seattle game, he might have had one more hit.

I would like to see Anderson in ST before giving him the job. Obviously, we all plan on Anderson in RF (or perhaps LF) and Young in CF someday in the future.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 01:45 PM
Are you off the wall?

You've been advocating going after Furcal all thru this thread.

Maybe you should type less, and read what you say more.

With you, though, I don't think that's possible. It requires flexibility of thought.

"reading is a skill"...

I never said I thought it would happen. I said I thought it was a better option if you must address the #2 hitter role UNDER THE ASSUMPTION they felt it was necessary to do so, as evidenced by the Juan Pierre rumors.

READ. READ. READ. If that doesn't help, try some of these:

:prozac

bobowhite
11-22-2005, 02:14 PM
That's a pretty severe contradiction.

Pierre is not a much worse fielder than Rowand. I mean, neither one is a gold glover. Don't forget, Rowand has looked great playing in a relatively small, easy to play center field park. Pierre has been playing in a nightmare center field.

Pierre's numbers in Colorado are pretty close to a match for Rowand and Pierre's significantly greater speed adversely affect his numbers. You are welcome to reanalyze here are their respective pages.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4486&context=fielding

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=4745&context=fielding

Also playing in a four man outfield rotation means Pierre would get ABs as the DH and days off which were totally forgotten in Florida.

In short, I don't think you lose much defensively with Pierre replacing Rowand but you gain quite a bit offensively.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 02:16 PM
In short, I don't think you lose much defensively with Pierre replacing Rowand but you gain quite a bit offensively.

Pierre's arm is only slightly better than Pods'. That is the biggest problem I have with it.

JimH
11-22-2005, 02:32 PM
"reading is a skill"...

I never said I thought it would happen. I said I thought it was a better option if you must address the #2 hitter role UNDER THE ASSUMPTION they felt it was necessary to do so, as evidenced by the Juan Pierre rumors.

READ. READ. READ. If that doesn't help, try some of these:

:prozac

I can read quite well, but when you flip flop all over the place, it's impossible to keep track of what you mean.

Oh never mind ... your reputation precedes you, you always have to be right, otherwise it's "LOL" "that's the most juvenile thing I've seen written", "that's ludicrous and insane" etc.

Randar68
11-22-2005, 02:34 PM
I can read quite well, but when you flip flop all over the place, it's impossible to keep track of what you mean.

Oh never mind ... your reputation precedes you, you always have to be right, otherwise it's "LOL" "that's the most juvenile thing I've seen written", "that's ludicrous and insane" etc.

Show me the quote where I proclaimed anything about what the Sox were actually going to do with relation to Furcal and I'll admit I was wrong. "Flip-flop"??? You too much of a simpleton to entertain multiple possibilities at one time?

This is idle speculation, "what would you do", etc. As long as the ideas are well-reasoned and take all the factors involved into account, anything is fair game... it's HOT STOVE!

If you're posting crap about players who will nto be traded, or fantasy trade ideas that are just crap, someone's going to tell you about it. Stop taking yourself so damn seriously. Then again, maybe it will help your ego to write me another cuss-filled threatening PM...

Oh, I forgot, you're above all that, right? LOL. OK, pal.

wdelaney72
11-22-2005, 03:16 PM
Pierre's arm is only slightly better than Pods'. That is the biggest problem I have with it.

And this is where Rowand is most valuable. Rowand has a very good arm in CF.

I'm not an advocate of trading Rowand, but I'd certainly entertain offers.. especially from a team like the Yankees who seem to have a banana in their pocket for Aaron. Juan Pierre for Rowand won't get it done for me, but like many others have said, I trust in Kenny to make this team competitive again. He's earned it.

bobowhite
11-22-2005, 04:49 PM
And this is where Rowand is most valuable. Rowand has a very good arm in CF.

He does? Pierre has one fewer assists over the last three years of playing CF as Rowand does.

Your best throwing arm from the outfield has to be your right fielder. CF should be the smartest and fastest. LF is some mix of the two.

Notice how nobody is raving about CLee's defense in LF anymore. Sure the guy made spectacular looking plays occasionally. Pods makes the plays look routine.


I think the biggest upgrade with Pierre is that by having another lead-off man the Sox will have a better chance to rest Pods and still win and will have a better one-two punch to put multiple men on base and in scoring position more often, thus scoring more runs. I have nothing against Iguchi, but I think he'd be happier hitting a little further down the order.

Half Cocked Jack
11-22-2005, 05:01 PM
This would be a great deal, I think.

maurice
11-22-2005, 05:30 PM
The White Sox will not weaken themselves defensively just to put an extra bat in the lineup.

I hope you're right. Defensively:
Anderson > Rowand > Pierre
Furcal = Uribe

OTOH, neither Rowand nor Uribe are as good as Furcal offensively.

the prospect still has holes in his game

Rowand has plenty of holes in his game also. He just has fewer excuses.

They are not going to sign Furcal. They just aren't.

You're almost certainly right, but everybody already has conceded the point -- either in this thread or elsewhere. "Furcal to the Sox" is just a standard offseason hypothetical argument.

BTW, it's ridiculous to make posts like this while accusing Randar of pontificating. Pot - kettle - black. He certainly is harsh rhetorically from time to time, but he's hardly a "flip flopper." In my (extensive) experience, getting him to change his mind on a player is like pulling teeth.
:cool: