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pmck003
11-20-2005, 03:57 AM
I'm all for improving by getting someone like Delgado, but this market seems like its going to be absolutely nuts; I'm about letting Dye (can Anderson work first?) play first base if he could be AVERAGE with his defense. Like the stock market, buy low and sell high. Teams that get "big money" players this off-season will probably be looking to get rid of some contracts at the trading deadline or just about the time they realize they still stink. I have full trust in KW that he will do the right thing, and I will not worry if that means nothing before June.

DaleJRFan
11-20-2005, 04:09 AM
I'm all for improving by getting someone like Delgado, but this market seems like its going to be absolutely nuts; I'm about letting Dye (can Anderson work first?) play first base if he could be AVERAGE with his defense. Like the stock market, buy low and sell high. Teams that get "big money" players this off-season will probably be looking to get rid of some contracts at the trading deadline or just about the time they realize they still stink. I have full trust in KW that he will do the right thing, and I will not worry if that means nothing before June.

Can someone please make a "Dye Is Not A First Baseman" tag... please??? :redneck

I agree that KW will make the "right" move. KW has been vocal about protecting his high-level prospects. I can't see him selling the farm for one player who will earn 14 million over the next 3 seasons. Sign PK, trade for a second-tier leftie slugger and call it a postseason.

pmck003
11-20-2005, 04:58 AM
I agree that Dye should not be at 1b in the optimal lineup, but if that is what is best, IF he is able to play first, then I'm all for it.

pmck003
11-20-2005, 05:00 AM
Reason I made this post is all the trade rumors that get me excited but are crazy at the same time. Just would like to know if anyone is thinking along my line.

DaleJRFan
11-20-2005, 05:05 AM
Reason I made this post is all the trade rumors that get me excited but are crazy at the same time. Just would like to know if anyone is thinking along my line.

I'm right with you. Makes me crazy with excitement. That's why I'm always on WSI... :D:

pmck003
11-20-2005, 05:15 AM
I'm right with you. Makes me crazy with excitement. That's why I'm always on WSI... :D:

If I wasn't reading this site, I coulda watched football this year...:D:

pmck003
11-20-2005, 05:33 AM
Imagine that come july 1, were 5 games behind cleveland and 2 games behind the twinks, but our payroll is minus PK (hope not true) and minus the Big Hurt (really hope not true) . I guarantee there is a couple teams wanting to get rid of some players, good ones; especially those who paid more than they shoud of for Eyre and the such. Just see that time of year as possibly being the best time for trades considering bang for the buck; more so that we can see what Anderson and McCarthy can do in the mlb.

ATXBMX
11-20-2005, 05:39 AM
I was actually thinking of starting a *Trade Rumors Suck* thread. It's not like I don't want anything to happen, it's that there are so many people that think they know everything. A friendly debate is one thing, but when people are focusing so much time and energy on WSI trade threads, I'm forced to wonder how these people accomplish anything.

I'll get excited when something happens. I refuse to get my hopes up. :cool:

Jjav829
11-20-2005, 10:33 AM
Imagine that come july 1, were 5 games behind cleveland and 2 games behind the twinks, but our payroll is minus PK (hope not true) and minus the Big Hurt (really hope not true) . I guarantee there is a couple teams wanting to get rid of some players, good ones; especially those who paid more than they shoud of for Eyre and the such. Just see that time of year as possibly being the best time for trades considering bang for the buck; more so that we can see what Anderson and McCarthy can do in the mlb.

If our lineup is without Konerko and Thomas and we haven't replaced them with Thome/Delgado/Helton/Giles etc., we won't be only 5 games back. It's a nice idea to say that Dye can play 1B, but Anderson sure as hell isn't Konerko. And by your plan our DH would be some cheap free agent signing, someone like Durazo. So let's look at that lineup.

Podsednik
Iguchi
Durazo
Dye
Pierzynski
Anderson
Crede
Rowand
Uribe

:puking:

Hello 3rd place! Seriously, we need at the very least one big bat. We really should get two because we needed one even with PK. If Konerko leaves, we need to get two.

Tragg
11-20-2005, 10:36 AM
Some years players come cheaper at mid-year.
Some years they don't.
I personally don't like to count on it - after all, no signficant midseason deals worked fine for us last year. Midseason deals didn't get the job done in the 2 prior years.

fquaye149
11-20-2005, 11:24 AM
If our lineup is without Konerko and Thomas and we haven't replaced them with Thome/Delgado/Helton/Giles etc., we won't be only 5 games back. It's a nice idea to say that Dye can play 1B, but Anderson sure as hell isn't Konerko. And by your plan our DH would be some cheap free agent signing, someone like Durazo. So let's look at that lineup.

Podsednik
Iguchi
Durazo
Dye
Pierzynski
Anderson
Crede
Rowand
Uribe

:puking:

Hello 3rd place! Seriously, we need at the very least one big bat. We really should get two because we needed one even with PK. If Konerko leaves, we need to get two.
No offense, but can we stop the ridiculousness? We WILL be more than 5 games back? HELLO 3RD PLACE? I feel like I'm listening to a recording of last offseason. Remember? Without Lee, Hurt, and Maggs we won't have enough offense to do anything? This is probably a 72 win team?

I can't remember how many people I heard that from. Hell I remember hearing that from PHG of all people. No, we couldn't predict the season we had, but jeez - can we learn our lesson from last season? We found a way to get things done losing all that lineup production. If we don't sign Konerko OR a big money free agent where is that money going? Uncle Jerry's pocket? Hangar says "yes" but I say "unlikely."

Let's be realistic - if we don't get a bat it will mean money for pitching. Add that to the best pitching in baseball (give or take an Oakland) and I can't imagine we're a "guaranteed" third place team.

And can we give the JERMAINE DYE CAN ABSOLUTELY NOT PLAY FIRST BASE crap a rest? No, I'm not ready to anoint him starting first baseman because of one game and yes, I think we'd be better with Dye in right. However, the fact is, Dye's a great athlete and first base is not a tough position to play (I say this as a former first baseman, and a damn good one at it...however if I had a lick of ability to judge a fly ball I'd have been out in center field).

If he had to play it I'm sure he'd work all offseason at it, and Ozzie and Kenny would have to know something about his ability to play first base (based on practices we have no access to) in order to decide he's capable of it. The fact is, for us as fans to rely on Dye playing first base is sketchy, but it's pretty ridiculous to say he CAN'T. It's not like we're talking about short stop, catcher, second base or an actual skill position. We're talking about the position Cecil Fielder played.

Jjav829
11-20-2005, 11:57 AM
No offense, but can we stop the ridiculousness? We WILL be more than 5 games back? HELLO 3RD PLACE? I feel like I'm listening to a recording of last offseason. Remember? Without Lee, Hurt, and Maggs we won't have enough offense to do anything? This is probably a 72 win team?

I can't remember how many people I heard that from. Hell I remember hearing that from PHG of all people. No, we couldn't predict the season we had, but jeez - can we learn our lesson from last season? We found a way to get things done losing all that lineup production. If we don't sign Konerko OR a big money free agent where is that money going? Uncle Jerry's pocket? Hangar says "yes" but I say "unlikely."

Let's be realistic - if we don't get a bat it will mean money for pitching. Add that to the best pitching in baseball (give or take an Oakland) and I can't imagine we're a "guaranteed" third place team.


Oh don't give me that ****. I said last offseason that I thought our offense would be better because we had a more consistent and deeper lineup. You have to score to win games. If Konerko and Frank/Everett are gone and are replaced with a rookie or some cheap, crappy DH, our offense will be awful. Add more pitching to what? We don't need more pitching, outside of maybe another lefty for the bullpen. We need offense and we need even more offense if Konerko leaves. That lineup I typed in my last post in this thread is an 84-win lineup. Add in Konerko and Thome/Delgado and it's a 95+ win lineup given our pitching.

It's not even worth arguing though. I'm quite sure Kenny understands this based on his interest in players like Thome and Delgado, while continuing to want Konerko back. I am confident that Kenny knows we need two big bats and he will find us those bats.

Tragg
11-20-2005, 12:12 PM
No offense, but can we stop the ridiculousness? We WILL be more than 5 games back? HELLO 3RD PLACE? I feel like I'm listening to a recording of last offseason. Remember? Without Lee, Hurt, and Maggs we won't have enough offense to do anything? This is probably a 72 win team?

I can't remember how many people I heard that from. Hell I remember hearing that from PHG of all people. No, we couldn't predict the season we had, but jeez - can we learn our lesson from last season? We found a way to get things done losing all that lineup production. If we don't sign Konerko OR a big money free agent where is that money going? Uncle Jerry's pocket? Hangar says "yes" but I say "unlikely."

Let's be realistic - if we don't get a bat it will mean money for pitching. Add that to the best pitching in baseball (give or take an Oakland) and I can't imagine we're a "guaranteed" third place team.

Just being realistic. No comparison in conception or result between what we did last year and this scenario.
Last year, we lost Maggs/Lee, but plugged 3 gaping holes at at C and 2B and a 5th starter and found adequate replacements for Maggs/Lee.
This scenario plugs no holes nor addresses any weakness, but creates a big 40/100 hole.
couple that with our competition is trying to get better, we're likely staring up at at least one of them.

fquaye149
11-20-2005, 12:42 PM
Oh don't give me that ****. I said last offseason that I thought our offense would be better because we had a more consistent and deeper lineup. You have to score to win games. If Konerko and Frank/Everett are gone and are replaced with a rookie or some cheap, crappy DH, our offense will be awful. Add more pitching to what? We don't need more pitching, outside of maybe another lefty for the bullpen. We need offense and we need even more offense if Konerko leaves. That lineup I typed in my last post in this thread is an 84-win lineup. Add in Konerko and Thome/Delgado and it's a 95+ win lineup given our pitching.

It's not even worth arguing though. I'm quite sure Kenny understands this based on his interest in players like Thome and Delgado, while continuing to want Konerko back. I am confident that Kenny knows we need two big bats and he will find us those bats.

Trust me - I don't want Anderson at CF to start next year. However if he does, we can still have a decent lineup. Durazo will replace Everett's production, most likely. We lose Konerko's power which will hurt, but perhaps we can get Iguchi out of the two-spot into a place where he can get better looks at hitting for power. I don't anticipate 30 HR power, but 20+ is not outrageous. Meanwhile Uribe projects to play better, given that his second half resurgence was due to a new timing technique in his swing. Crede may very well have a nice contract year.

I say we will continue to score runs with our core. It would help very much to have Konerko or a comparable bat, but I can't see our pitching getting worse - in fact I expect it to be much better. Contreras finally looks like he can pitch like an ace - if we had that the whole season - WOW. Freddy, Buehrle, and Garland do not project to decline. McCarthy will be an improvement over El Duque. Meanwhile our bullpen looks a lot deeper - Hermanson, Jenks, Politte, Cotts, Hernandez. How can we improve our pitching? Gee - how about using the Konerko money (in the unfortunate even we don't resign him) to sign, say BJ Ryan or Billy Wagner? Hell, we could even afford to overpay for Bob Wickman or Howry (not that I really want Howry).

You can always have more pitching, and our pitching next year looks to be phenomenal.

That's not to say it will be phenomenal, and that's not to say we WON'T be in third place or worse, but let's look at both sides of the coin. It's hard to say, the way you did, that a team with as good of pitching as we have is a third place team, no matter how bad you think our hitting is.

Like I said,it's like a repeat of last offseason's message board moaning (whether or not YOU were a part of it...you always assume I'm talking about you), only this time it seems like no one wants to LEARN from history.

Brian26
11-20-2005, 12:43 PM
Just being realistic. No comparison in conception or result between what we did last year and this scenario.
Last year, we lost Maggs/Lee, but plugged 3 gaping holes at at C and 2B and a 5th starter and found adequate replacements for Maggs/Lee.
This scenario plugs no holes nor addresses any weakness, but creates a big 40/100 hole.
couple that with our competition is trying to get better, we're likely staring up at at least one of them.

I think you and fquaye bring up valid points, but I lean more towards what fquaye is saying. I was really nervous at the beginning of the year after losing Lee and Mags, as those were two huge holes in the lineup being filled with relative question marks in Dye and Pods. KW has earned the benefit of the doubt now. Granted, maybe he caught lightning in a bottle with Dye's 31 homers and injury-free season (except for the spider bites), but that's why he gets paid the big money to be GM. If we lose Konerko, KW will fill the void the best he can either at 1b or DH. It's not like the 40/100 are being totally erased from the lineup. They will be replaced by someone else. Maybe it's 30/80 instead, but it will be there.

RealMenWearBlack
11-20-2005, 12:50 PM
Some years players come cheaper at mid-year.
Some years they don't.
I personally don't like to count on it - after all, no signficant midseason deals worked fine for us last year. Midseason deals didn't get the job done in the 2 prior years.

It depends on what you mean by significant midseason deal. Although we didn't trade for an every day player this season, Geoff Blum did hit the game winning homer in the third game of the World Series, which I would definitely consider significant.

Jjav829
11-20-2005, 05:34 PM
Trust me - I don't want Anderson at CF to start next year. However if he does, we can still have a decent lineup. Durazo will replace Everett's production, most likely. We lose Konerko's power which will hurt, but perhaps we can get Iguchi out of the two-spot into a place where he can get better looks at hitting for power. I don't anticipate 30 HR power, but 20+ is not outrageous. Meanwhile Uribe projects to play better, given that his second half resurgence was due to a new timing technique in his swing. Crede may very well have a nice contract year.

Or things can go the other way. Dye could get injured again. Pods could have another off year. Uribe's free swinging ways could lead to him becoming an even worse hitter. That's why you protect yourself by having a strong middle-of-the-order.

I say we will continue to score runs with our core. It would help very much to have Konerko or a comparable bat, but I can't see our pitching getting worse - in fact I expect it to be much better. Contreras finally looks like he can pitch like an ace - if we had that the whole season - WOW. Freddy, Buehrle, and Garland do not project to decline. McCarthy will be an improvement over El Duque. Meanwhile our bullpen looks a lot deeper - Hermanson, Jenks, Politte, Cotts, Hernandez. How can we improve our pitching? Gee - how about using the Konerko money (in the unfortunate even we don't resign him) to sign, say BJ Ryan or Billy Wagner? Hell, we could even afford to overpay for Bob Wickman or Howry (not that I really want Howry).

Except our pitching is already good enough. We need offense, not pitching. Balance wins. Not pitching. Not hitting. Not defense. Balance. That's why we won this year. Our starting pitching was great. Our bullpen was great. Our defense was great. And our offense, while not spectacular, had enough speed to make some things happen and enough power to change games with one swing of the bat. Adding Wagner or Ryan is pointless if it means we lose Konerko.

That's not to say it will be phenomenal, and that's not to say we WON'T be in third place or worse, but let's look at both sides of the coin. It's hard to say, the way you did, that a team with as good of pitching as we have is a third place team, no matter how bad you think our hitting is.

My 3rd place comment wasn't meant to be taken literally. I just meant that a team with that offense can't be considered a favorite, whereas a team with our current pitching and a 3-4 like Thome-Konerko would be the favorite.

Like I said,it's like a repeat of last offseason's message board moaning (whether or not YOU were a part of it...you always assume I'm talking about you), only this time it seems like no one wants to LEARN from history.

Then don't quote me when you reply. When you quote my posts, I'm assuming that you are talking to me. And as Tragg already explained, this is completely different than last year. Last year we had 4 big boppers and lacked some speed and situational hitting. We lost two of those big hitters but added some speed and situational hitting. You can only lose so much power before you start to get yourself in trouble. Every team needs to have a good amount of power, regardless of whether they want to consider themselves a small-ball or smart-ball team.

Either way, like I said, I'm not going any further with this. I am completely confident that Kenny will keep Konerko or land Thome/Delgado/etc. I'm not worried in the least bit that Kenny is thinking about going with Anderson and Durazo or mediocre DH. He will deliver us at least one big hitter for the middle of the order.

fquaye149
11-21-2005, 12:02 AM
Then don't quote me when you reply. .


Just a small point but I only quoted you as a comparison to what was said last year. Read my post and you'll see that to be the case. I said "this sounds like what was being said next year."

no hard feelings:wink:

Tragg
11-21-2005, 12:16 AM
It's not like the 40/100 are being totally erased from the lineup. They will be replaced by someone else. Maybe it's 30/80 instead, but it will be there.That's sort of the question - who do we get to do that? Yes anyone will produce 10/50 perhaps.
That scenario contemplates Durazo to replace Konerko. He's an interesting hitter (I assume he was injured last year) - sort of like Overbay. But, he's more interesting as the 3 hitter that we lack, versus replacing Konerko. We also need to replace Everett. And if we had a weakness last year, it was offense, so I wouldn't mind getting even better than last year offensively.