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Whitesox4ever
11-19-2005, 10:05 AM
If this does happen. I would like to see the Sox move Dye to DH and move Rowand over to RF

depy48
11-19-2005, 10:09 AM
Jermaine Dye has won a gold glove, to move a player with his defensive caliber is insulting to him, and would do injustice to the Sox. Hey, if worse comes to worse, we can always move Dye to first base!

ja1022
11-19-2005, 10:13 AM
If this does happen. I would like to see the Sox move Dye to DH and move Rowand over to RF

If this does happen they'd probably move Rowand to Florida.

The Deacon
11-19-2005, 10:13 AM
I love Juan Pierre. But I can't help thinking that Pods + JP is a liitle bit of speed overkill. I dont like this move unless we get rid of Rowand and get a big time DH who can hit a ton of doubles (Thome? Sweeney?). With JP in the outfield, we would also have 2 below average arms in CF and LF.
We sure would be fast as hell though!

julio-cruz
11-19-2005, 10:14 AM
Pierre's arm is WEAK. Maybe not as bad as Podsedniks. However, it will be interesting to see how things shake out. Kenny and Ozzie have a plan. It will be really cool to see what they truly envision come to fruition! :cool:

Tragg
11-19-2005, 10:16 AM
If this does happen. I would like to see the Sox move Dye to DH and move Rowand over to RF
That would give us weak arms in left and center and really in right (Rowand has a good arm for a CF); it would weaken our defense in CF and RF and would have our best CF in right. It would seriously threaten our run production and reduce an already challenged team OBP.
It would log-jam our best young players, some of whom appear ML ready and the rest of which will be by 2007.
Other than that, I see no problems.

batmanZoSo
11-19-2005, 11:10 AM
I've been wanting Pierre on the Sox for years, and it hasn't changed since we got Podsednik. That would be devastating. It would be funny too because when I was playing MVP or whatever it was last April I had Pierre and Pods at the top of my lineup on the Sox franchise. Yeah, it was pure domination. :D:

Just Pods alone changes the game. Imagine having two guys like that to contend with. I'm all for it. And it's not like Pierre would be taking the place of a major force in the lineup. What did Aaron hit, 13 homers?

balke
11-19-2005, 11:14 AM
Juan Pierre to DH, pods in LF, Rowand/Anderson in Center, Dye in RF.

Just kidding, but I wouldn't be shocked if the Sox made a statement by using a speedy DH this coming season, instead of a power DH. I could even see the #2 spot being our DH.

caulfield12
11-19-2005, 11:21 AM
That would give us weak arms in left and center and really in right (Rowand has a good arm for a CF); it would weaken our defense in CF and RF and would have our best CF in right. It would seriously threaten our run production and reduce an already challenged team OBP.
It would log-jam our best young players, some of whom appear ML ready and the rest of which will be by 2007.
Other than that, I see no problems.

The only way this makes sense is trading Rowand. Essentially, Pierre and Rowand would cancel each other out salarywise, and both would have probably stayed with the Sox for only the 06 and 07 seasons.

It only makes sense with Konerko back (or his equivalent) and a force at DH.

I think there is enough playing time for Anderson as 4th OF and DH if Konerko and or a DH are not signed. Of course, nobody knows if he is ready for this role. It is only speculation.

Dye will probably be gone after 06 too, so we are not blocking Anderson and Young at this point. You cannot expect to defend the WS Championship with Anderson or Young playing significant roles.

Sweeney has not even been switched to 1B yet. That will take time. And we have no way of knowing if an injury will force Anderson or Young (or Owens even) to play.

cbrownson13
11-19-2005, 12:35 PM
Is there any validity to this post or is it just a discussion of Juan Pierre. I haven't seen this rumored anywhere.

Whitesox4ever
11-19-2005, 12:39 PM
This was in today Miami Herald. Also Chicago sun-times mention this rumor as well
Juan Pierre might find himself in the Windy City if the Marlins trade their center fielder.

But the Cubs, who are said to be interested in Pierre, could be bidding against the Chicago White Sox, who also have interest in the speedy lead-off hitter.

And the White Sox might make a better fit for the Marlins.

The reigning World Series champs would likely be willing to part with left-handed reliever Damaso Marte.

The Marlins have had previous interest in Marte and are seeking bullpen help while looking to shave payroll.

Marte fell out of favor with White Sox fans and manager Ozzie Guillen late in the season when he struggled.

His earned run average before the All-Star break: 2.81. After: 5.03.

Marte could prove affordable, though. He's due to earn $2.25 million next season with club options of $3 million (or a $250,000 buyout) for 2007 and `08.

The White Sox could also dangle center fielder Aaron Rowand, who is set to earn $3.25 million next season.

Mohoney
11-19-2005, 12:41 PM
Juan Pierre to DH, pods in LF, Rowand/Anderson in Center, Dye in RF.

Just kidding, but I wouldn't be shocked if the Sox made a statement by using a speedy DH this coming season, instead of a power DH. I could even see the #2 spot being our DH.

This is exactly what I wanted. I would DH Podsednik, and put Pierre in LF.

Ventura Fan 23
11-19-2005, 12:42 PM
The Sox don't need pierre. They need to be patient, I'd rather see playing time given to Brian Anderson/Chris Young/Jerry Owens.

nodiggity59
11-19-2005, 12:46 PM
The Sox don't need pierre. They need to be patient, I'd rather see playing time given to Brian Anderson/Chris Young/Jerry Owens.

Well, I don't think anyone would agrue that Pierre and Delgado/Thome/Giles isn't a huge upgrade over Rowand and Carl.

Whitesox4ever
11-19-2005, 12:51 PM
How about this trade

Sox would trade
Rowand
Marte
Garland
2 prospects

and the Sox would get
Pierre
Delgado
Mota

caulfield12
11-19-2005, 12:52 PM
The Sox don't need pierre. They need to be patient, I'd rather see playing time given to Brian Anderson/Chris Young/Jerry Owens.

Yes, in theory, but not this season.

I see no problem with Pierre taking Rowands place, both would probably be with the White Sox for two more years, at max, and no more.

Of course, we have to bring back Konerko and sign-trade for another hitter for this to make sense.

Owens is not a CFer, so Owens will only play LF if the White Sox, at some point, want to save money on Pods or he is no longer performing.

Anderson will take Dyes place in 2007, and Young should not be considered for a starting role until 2007 either. I have no issue with letting Pierre walk and starting Young in 2007 if this particular experiment were not to work out.

caulfield12
11-19-2005, 12:56 PM
How about this trade

Sox would trade
Rowand
Marte
Garland
2 prospects

and the Sox would get
Pierre
Delgado
Mota

First of all, the Marlins would be giving up a younger reliever for one with a bigger contract, and one they would only have for one season.

Second, the Marlins would be idiots to make this move unless Garland were signed long-term, and I do not see how this would happen if the White Sox couldnt do it. Garland is much more likely to end up West Coast, if he elects to leave the Sox. Do not see him in FLA.

Rowand and Pierre would be a straight up exchange, pluses and minuses have been discussed.

The whole key would be what prospects the Sox would give up for Delgado...and this issue would likely be the deal breaker.

If you wanted it to be Marte and Rowand for Pierre and Mota, that would be great from the White Sox side of things, but the Marlins are not going to make that trade.

Whitesox4ever
11-19-2005, 01:01 PM
Mota is older than MarteFirst of all, the Marlins would be giving up a younger reliever for one with a bigger contract, and one they would only have for one season.

Second, the Marlins would be idiots to make this move unless Garland were signed long-term, and I do not see how this would happen if the White Sox couldnt do it. Garland is much more likely to end up West Coast, if he elects to leave the Sox. Do not see him in FLA.

Rowand and Pierre would be a straight up exchange, pluses and minuses have been discussed.

The whole key would be what prospects the Sox would give up for Delgado...and this issue would likely be the deal breaker.

If you wanted it to be Marte and Rowand for Pierre and Mota, that would be great from the White Sox side of things, but the Marlins are not going to make that trade.

caulfield12
11-19-2005, 01:11 PM
Mota is older than Marte

yep, you are right...it shows how much I followed Montreal, I had not even realized he existed until he started pitching for the Dodgers...but I would still prefer Mota over Marte, straight up, regardless of age

Professor
11-19-2005, 01:35 PM
Via rotoworld.com:


The White Sox have interest in acquiring Juan Pierre, perhaps for Damaso Marte and/or Aaron Rowand.
It doesn't make a lot of sense, but with multiple sources reporting the story, there must be some truth to it. Pierre is both a worse player than Rowand and the more expensive of the two. Plus, he'd only be under the club's control for one year. If the White Sox do decide they need Pierre to go along with Scott Podsednik, they should at least refuse to give up Rowand in the deal and try to use him to upgrade elsewhere. Nov. 19 - 1:17 pm et



Link (http://rotoworld.com/content/playernews.asp?sport=MLB).

A. Cavatica
11-19-2005, 02:09 PM
Pierre would be a clear upgrade over Podsednik -- higher average, better K/BB ratio, a year younger. The comparison with Rowand is altogether different. Rowand is better in CF and has more power, but Pierre has three 200-hit, 100-run seasons.

Pierre would certainly allow Ozzie to move Iguchi down in the order. I'm not sold on Iguchi as a run producer, and I'd be happier trading Rowand for a top 1B/DH and giving B.A. his shot in center, but I can't get too worked up about this rumor. One Podsednik turned this team around, maybe two of them makes it even better.

Tragg
11-19-2005, 02:21 PM
How about this trade

Sox would trade
Rowand
Marte
Garland
2 prospects

and the Sox would get
Pierre
Delgado
Mota

Gosh, maybe we can find a way to get Mike Lowell here, too.

Ridiculously one-sided in favor of Florida. We get a really good hitter who's paid a ton of money, we take 2 stiffs off of their hands, and they get an ace starter, a centerfielder who can actually field, a lefty specialist and 2 prospects.
There is a reason the Marlins aren't a good baseball team.

Breaking down the Delgado part, 2 prospects plus a top-line starter is too high a price to pay, especially as they are trying to drop salary.

Reminder: it was THREE years ago that the Marlins did us a favor and beat the Cubs. No use us adding payroll and inferior talent to help them out.

Tragg
11-19-2005, 02:33 PM
Nice analysis by Rotoworld - right on the money. Rowand is a better baseball player than Pierre, and is cheaper.

The Marlins have a smart GM - he knows his team is loaded with stiffs and is trying to dump them.

It's Time
11-19-2005, 02:34 PM
I luuuuuuuuv hot stove baseball. Not even a month after the championship and the White Sox and Cubs are at it again as they both are after Pierre.

Kudos to KW as he is not about to let the Cubs steal away any thunder this off-season without a fight.

nodiggity59
11-19-2005, 02:41 PM
Nice analysis by Rotoworld - right on the money. Rowand is a better baseball player than Pierre, and is cheaper.

The Marlins have a smart GM - he knows his team is loaded with stiffs and is trying to dump them.

If he's a good GM then how is his team loaded with stiffs :rolleyes: ? No. His team has gotten inconsistent starting pitching. The one year the Fish actually got healthy pitching, they won it all. Like the White Sox 01-04, the Marlins have a talented team without the starting pitching to get them anywhere.

Rowand was an awful offensive player last year. He had one good year, the year before last, and everyone wants to say he's better than Pierre. Pierre has had at least 3 good years, though he had a poor year last year. Plus, taking on Pierre may be a big contigent for getting Delgado. Even if Pierre were worse than Rowand, which I disagree with, it would be worth the downgrade to bring in Delgado.

The longer this drags out, the more I see the Fish doing a Lowell/Beckett deal AND Pierre/Delgado. That clears about $25mil+ and would bring some good young talent.

CanBuehrleWait
11-19-2005, 02:49 PM
Ridiculously one-sided in favor of Florida. We get a really good hitter who's paid a ton of money, we take 2 stiffs off of their hands, and they get an ace starter, a centerfielder who can actually field, a lefty specialist and 2 prospects.
There is a reason the Marlins aren't a good baseball team.

Breaking down the Delgado part, 2 prospects plus a top-line starter is too high a price to pay, especially as they are trying to drop salary.

Didn't Rowand also lead our team in AVG with runners in scoring position or is that with just two outs runners in scoring position? Either way even on a down year the man is clutch. What good is Pierre and Podsednik if nobody can drive them in? Also isn't Pierre a 2006 free agent as well?

Madvora
11-19-2005, 02:54 PM
I don't like giving up Rowand in this deal, but I did find one good stat to compare the two players... strikeouts

Rowand
2004 - 91 (487 AB)
2005 - 116 (578 AB)

Pierre
2004 - 45 (678 AB)
2005 - 35 (656 AB)

ChiSoxPatF
11-19-2005, 03:02 PM
This deal seems to make sense to me. While I can't see the Sox giving up Rowand AND Marte for Pierre, Pierre would fit in nicely in the #2 spot and add another burner on the basepath. Ozzie has already said he wants to bat Iguchi #5 so this would give them a certified #2 to replace him. On top of that, this would free them from Rowand's longer contract and setting them up to let Pierre go after this upcoming season which would make way for Anderson or Young in center.

This would make sense if the Sox made some package deal for Pierre and Delgado for, say, Rowand, Marte, and a decent prospect or two.

y2j2785
11-19-2005, 03:11 PM
Yes, I believe Pierre is a FA after 06. I would like them to get Pierre so we can have a great 1,2 combo, but we need someone to drive them in so i hope we can get Delgado/Thome as well.

Jjav829
11-19-2005, 03:18 PM
Ridiculously one-sided in favor of Florida. We get a really good hitter who's paid a ton of money, we take 2 stiffs off of their hands, and they get an ace starter, a centerfielder who can actually field, a lefty specialist and 2 prospects.
There is a reason the Marlins aren't a good baseball team.


So let me get this straight; Pierre is a stiff because he had a down year. But Marte is still a "lefty-specialist" even though lefties hitting .267 off of him last year? :?:

Can you possibly put any more value into one year of a player's performance? Were you calling Brady Anderson a HOF'er after his 50 HR season?

And for the last time, the Marlins were not a good team last year because they lacked a real bullpen and they had two players they were counting on for offense give them significant down years. Period. End of story.

BTW, just a side note, I love how the Marlins GM is smart, yet all his players are stiffs. A bit of a contradiction there...

chisoxmike
11-19-2005, 03:22 PM
Why hasn't this been moved yet?:?:

samram
11-19-2005, 03:33 PM
So let me get this straight; Pierre is a stiff because he had a down year. But Marte is still a "lefty-specialist" even though lefties hitting .267 off of him last year? :?:

Can you possibly put any more value into one year of a player's performance? Were you calling Brady Anderson a HOF'er after his 50 HR season?

And for the last time, the Marlins were not a good team last year because they lacked a real bullpen and they had two players they were counting on for offense give them significant down years. Period. End of story.

BTW, just a side note, I love how the Marlins GM is smart, yet all his players are stiffs. A bit of a contradiction there...

Right. I'm not seeing why people keep saying that Pierre is a bum. If the Marlins offered him straight up for Pods, I'd do it in a second. Yes, he had a bad year last year with a .326 OBP, but his lifetime OBP is .355 and he steals 50 bases every year. And I don't recall his ever missing a lot of time during the season. Not sure what in that description makes him a stiff. I mean, somehow, the Marlins won the World Series with him as the leadoff hitter.

It's Time
11-19-2005, 04:02 PM
Right. I'm not seeing why people keep saying that Pierre is a bum. If the Marlins offered him straight up for Pods, I'd do it in a second. Yes, he had a bad year last year with a .326 OBP, but his lifetime OBP is .355 and he steals 50 bases every year. And I don't recall his ever missing a lot of time during the season. Not sure what in that description makes him a stiff. I mean, somehow, the Marlins won the World Series with him as the leadoff hitter.

Not to mention he got things "started" with a one out double in the top of the 8th in game 6 of the 2003 NLCS. We all know what happened after that:tongue: . If he doesn't get that double, it's 2 outs and nobody on base and the Marlins likely do not score that inning and they likely lose that series.

Pierre is a money player.

beckett21
11-19-2005, 04:20 PM
Juan Pierre is most definitely not a bum.

His work ethic is unquestioned and he is a prototypical leadoff man. How the Sox would make room for him would be my question, but the guy is a tough player and would be a fan favorite. Guaranteed.

I'll hold out for Ichiro, but Pierre is not as bad as he is being made out to be.

Tragg
11-19-2005, 04:24 PM
So let me get this straight; Pierre is a stiff because he had a down year. But Marte is still a "lefty-specialist" even though lefties hitting .267 off of him last year? :?:

I admit some inconsistency on that one; Marte (who is a Sox), however, should be lined up against Mota, yet another Marlin in love with the disabled list.

Can you possibly put any more value into one year of a player's performance? Were you calling Brady Anderson a HOF'er after his 50 HR season? Regardless of his stats last year, he's an overrated player, imo. He swings at everything and has no power. His defense is well below average - the D was key to this club last year. This team needs an OBP upgrade - Pierre isn't that, unless he hits like crazy, which is questionable. He's more expensive than Rowand, and he clogs our pipeline of young players.

As for basing it on one year, I tend to do that when the player had a BAD year, yes. I don't overstate good years and I can't recall getting excited about a player off of one good year.

I do get riled up about trades I don't like - that's the way it is. I was practically the lone voice in the wilderness when this board wanted to trade Contreras, McCarthy and another top prospect for AJ Burnett.

And for the last time, the Marlins were not a good team last year because they lacked a real bullpen and they had two players they were counting on for offense give them significant down years. Period. End of story.

Yet, 2 of the players rumored to be Sox happen to be those 2 players. And the GM hasn't been bashful about wanting those 2 players off of his team - he's been open and obvious about it. And the bad bullpen - well---->they are part of this trade, too.

BTW, just a side note, I love how the Marlins GM is smart, yet all his players are stiffs. A bit of a contradiction there...
They helped him win a world series. And now that they are on the decline, he's not being nostalgic - he's trying to unload them and improve his club. That's a smart GM.

Do you really think this is a good proposal? Creating a hole in SP, creating a defensive problem in CF, more payroll, losing power, all for a small upgrade at 1B and a base-stealer (which isn't really needed with a guy like Delgado hitting 4). We wouldn't have even addressed our big need - a 3 hitter.
We wouldn't improve team OBP, a real weakness.

We could do something simple like trade Rowand for Overbay and sign Giles and end up better than under this proposal. Overbay's no great shakes but he and Giles together are good for a ton of good OBP and together replace Konerko's power. Throw Anderson in CF and we don't hurt our D. We have 4 guys who can play 2 of right/1B/DH: Thomas, Giles, Overbay, Dye.
Not the ideal solution, but we'd end up with a better offensive, defensive and pitching team than under the proposal above. We also wouldn't bust the bank, could give some pitchers raises, and keep El D - who, although expensive (not so much if Eyre got a market price) can start and relieve - we may get an injury next year.

Tragg
11-19-2005, 04:43 PM
Right. I'm not seeing why people keep saying that Pierre is a bum. If the Marlins offered him straight up for Pods, I'd do it in a second. Yes, he had a bad year last year with a .326 OBP, but his lifetime OBP is .355 and he steals 50 bases every year. And I don't recall his ever missing a lot of time during the season. Not sure what in that description makes him a stiff. I mean, somehow, the Marlins won the World Series with him as the leadoff hitter.
That would be fine - as a replacement for Pods. I wouldn't complain a bit.

The problem is that we would give up one of our prime trading chits, Rowand, for a player who doesn't address a weakness, which is the lack of a 3 hitter.
Lack of speed is not a problem.
He's a free swinger with no power - the type of O I personally like the least.

Pierre has a weak arm and him with Podsendnik (also a weak arm, as per game 2 of the WS) would really hurt our outfield D.
Teams like the Phillies and Yanks need a CF - yet you don't see them lining up for Pierre - they want Rowand because Rowand is a really good defender and has some power. Let's work a deal through or with one of those 2 teams to improve the club.

samram
11-19-2005, 04:48 PM
That would be fine - as a replacement for Pods. I wouldn't complain a bit.

The problem is that we would give up one of our prime trading chits, Rowand, for a player who doesn't address a weakness, which is the lack of a 3 hitter.
Lack of speed is not a problem.
He's a free swinger with no power - the type of O I personally like the least.

Pierre has a weak arm and him with Podsendnik (also a weak arm, as per game 2 of the WS) would really hurt our outfield D.
Teams like the Phillies and Yanks need a CF - yet you don't see them lining up for Pierre - they want Rowand because Rowand is a really good defender and has some power. Let's work a deal through or with one of those 2 teams to improve the club.

Oh, the proposed deal in this thread was one-sided in favor of the Marlins. I wouldn't do it. The Sox don't need right handed set up men either, so there's no point in having Mota. My bone of contention was your calling Pierre a stiff.

Jerome
11-19-2005, 08:27 PM
I have no objections to Juan Pierre, he is pretty similar to Pods with better OBP (last few years, not last year) and fewer strikeouts. However, I don't think we will be moving Scot Podsednik any time soon, so I don't see why we are focusing on Pierre. The player on the Marlins we should be going after is Carlos Delgado.

Optipessimism
11-19-2005, 08:31 PM
I really like the idea of Pierre + Pods, but how do you work it out so both can play?

IMO the best way to do this would probably be to put together a package for Delgado and Pierre for Rowand + Marte + El Duque and maybe something else depending on how much (if any) of Delgado's contract the Marlins would be willing to eat. Then move Pierre to LF, Pods to DH, and Delgado to 1B. The only problem here is that now there is not enough offense to drive these guys in, so now we need to upgrade 3B, CF, SS, or C. AJ is going nowhere though, there isn't any SS available with more power than Uribe, so IMO there are only two options left. KW can try again to put together a package for Eric Chavez, or he can upgrade CF. I think I'll probably be the only one to mention this, but what about Johnny Damon? He is a downgrade from Rowand defensively, but he could be a nice no. 3 hitter in front of a guy like Delgado. Plus he still has some speed, so a Pods-Pierre-Damon 1-2-3 would be pretty scary on the basepaths. Now I know Borass is his agent and he's looking for a 5 year deal and a ton of money, but I doubt anyone outside of the Tigers are willing to do that. Maybe a 4/40M deal from the Sox? When it all comes down to it, would he rather take a 3 year deal from Boston, a 4 year deal from te Sox, or a five year deal from Detroit? I honestly think it's more plausible to land Chavez from the God of Oakland, but it's a thought.

Tragg
11-19-2005, 11:36 PM
Oh, the proposed deal in this thread was one-sided in favor of the Marlins. I wouldn't do it. The Sox don't need right handed set up men either, so there's no point in having Mota. My bone of contention was your calling Pierre a stiff.
True enough - just hyperbole in the heat of battle.
His game just isn't my cup of tea and I don't think he fills a need.

MadetoOrta
11-20-2005, 12:25 AM
Not to mention he got things "started" with a one out double in the top of the 8th in game 6 of the 2003 NLCS. We all know what happened after that:tongue: . If he doesn't get that double, it's 2 outs and nobody on base and the Marlins likely do not score that inning and they likely lose that series.

Pierre is a money player.

Ah.... the memories. That was literally THE night I found WSI and I've been hooked ever since. Boooooooyahhhhhh!!!

Jjav829
11-20-2005, 03:06 AM
Yet, 2 of the players rumored to be Sox happen to be those 2 players. And the GM hasn't been bashful about wanting those 2 players off of his team - he's been open and obvious about it. And the bad bullpen - well---->they are part of this trade, too.

I was reffering to Mike Lowell and Juan Pierre. I haven't heard Lowell's name anywhere.

Do you really think this is a good proposal? Creating a hole in SP, creating a defensive problem in CF, more payroll, losing power, all for a small upgrade at 1B and a base-stealer (which isn't really needed with a guy like Delgado hitting 4). We wouldn't have even addressed our big need - a 3 hitter.
We wouldn't improve team OBP, a real weakness.

I'm not talking about this specific trade, just the idea of adding Pierre in general. You act as if he is Corey Patterson, even though the guy was one of the best leadoff men in baseball in 2003 and 2004. He had one down year. It happens. We saw Konerko go through a tough year and bounce back. There is no doubt in my mind that Pierre will do the same. He's a good player. Good players bounce back. And on top of that, Pierre is only 28. It's not like he is past his prime. He's just entering his prime.

Domeshot17
11-20-2005, 10:06 AM
You know, I just woke up and Im too tired to co copy and paste qoutes, sorry.

The one that stuck out: Pierre is not a bum, the Marlins won the world series with him.

We won the world series with Pods leading off, and I know the point was he was a fire starter for them, and I know Ozzie is dying to have his pierre/Castillo combo he had in florida and thats he he is drooling over Pods and Pierre.

Im not so sure on this. The main Idea would be drop Tadahito back into the 3 spot. Now I love Tadahito, huge fan of him and what he did last year, but did anyone else think pitchers figured him out in the playoffs. He was attrocious at the plate during the playoffs, besides the one huge home run, and even though he did hit a lot of home runs in Japan, I don't really know if he has 25 home run potential in the MLB. What scares me most about him, he was just an average bunter, and relied more on moving runners over by hitting to the right side. With 2 guys on base infront of him, thats going to mean more DP's if he is still in that habit. It will be a MAJOR adjustment for him.

And say we don't land Helton or Delgado, and PK does leave. Those are 3 real possibilities not out of the realm. Overbay would be the most likely target, and now your talking about a team that has no real threat for 30 home runs. Dye did it last year, but something like 19odd of them were solo shots. Overbay loses his key ability, doubles, in USCF because the gaps arent like Miller Park. So now, even with Thome at DH if that was to happen, here is your 1-9 with a guess at how it fairs and an A-F grade in the field

Pods LF-280-2-30-50 sbs C
Pierre CF- 275-3-45-55 sbs B-
Iguchi 2b-270-17-65 B/B-
Thome DH- 260-31-102 --
Dye LF-269-25-70 B+
Overbay 1b-275-18-32 2bs-68 rbis B/B-
AJ C-260-15-65 C
Crede 255-28-72 A
Uribe 260-14-55 A-

There is really no offensive improvement from last years team, and While Crede was hot to finish the year, we have seen that before, and I think he could have a break out year, I have been thinking that for a few years now. Then take a guy who admittingly doesnt handle it well when the crowd gets on him(Crede) and remove his best friend(Rowand) and you take out the guy that pumps his confidence the most.

The defense takes a HUGE hit, because Rowand really made up for Pods. Pods has good range, but he judges balls poorly and has a terrible arm.

If Paulie resigned it works, because Thome hits 3, Paulie 4 dye 5 and Iguchi 6. Still take a massive loss defensively, and you really shake up the chemistry of the team, as Rowand was clearly one of the most popular guys in the clubhouse.

What I would like to see personally, is get Pierre and deal Dye. For the 10 more runs Dye will drive in a year, hes older, an FA to be, and we got an injury free jermaine last year, will we this year? Rowand will take those 10 and them some away in center.

The Marlins are clearly a team looking to build cheap. Send MArte-Dye-Elduque and Jerry Owens for Pierre Delgado and an average RP/Prospect.

Marte is gone, Dye takes over at first in Florida, El Duque fills Burnetts rotation hole, and Owens, even in an empty OF, is 4th of the depth chart behind Anderson Young and Sweeney. We sent back about 12 mil and take on 15. Florida then has an OF of Owens in center, Hermidia in Right and Cabrera in left to build off of. They get a cheaper but still productive 1b and we get our guys without hurting the chemistry of the team, maybe with El Duque, but paying 4.5 mil for an RP who is still going to fight injuries and probably post an era in the high 4's isn't worth it.

I also do not want to see 2 rookies in the OF at one time, bring them along, dont throw them into the fire. If you get Pierre, and trade Rowand, you have an entire outfield of players with 1 year left on their deal. Brian Anderson did not really show much at the plate besides one huge game in seattle. Chris Young was a stud, but make a transition from double A pitching to major league pitching is a big difference.

Tragg
11-20-2005, 10:26 AM
Pods LF-280-2-30-50 sbs C
Pierre CF- 275-3-45-55 sbs B-
Iguchi 2b-270-17-65 B/B-
Thome DH- 260-31-102 --
Dye LF-269-25-70 B+
Overbay 1b-275-18-32 2bs-68 rbis B/B-
AJ C-260-15-65 C
Crede 255-28-72 A
Uribe 260-14-55 A-

There is really no offensive improvement from last years team.....

The defense takes a HUGE hit, because Rowand really made up for Pods. Pods has good range, but he judges balls poorly and has a terrible arm.

Agree with that - we're worse under that scenario.

What I would like to see personally, is get Pierre and deal Dye. For the 10 more runs Dye will drive in a year, hes older, an FA to be, and we got an injury free jermaine last year, will we this year? Rowand will take those 10 and them some away in center.

The Marlins are clearly a team looking to build cheap. Send MArte-Dye-Elduque and Jerry Owens for Pierre Delgado and an average RP/Prospect.

Marte is gone, Dye takes over at first in Florida, El Duque fills Burnetts rotation hole, and Owens, even in an empty OF, is 4th of the depth chart behind Anderson Young and Sweeney. We sent back about 12 mil and take on 15. Florida then has an OF of Owens in center, Hermidia in Right and Cabrera in left to build off of. They get a cheaper but still productive 1b and we get our guys without hurting the chemistry of the team, maybe with El Duque, but paying 4.5 mil for an RP who is still going to fight injuries and probably post an era in the high 4's isn't worth it.

I also do not want to see 2 rookies in the OF at one time, bring them along, dont throw them into the fire. If you get Pierre, and trade Rowand, you have an entire outfield of players with 1 year left on their deal. Brian Anderson did not really show much at the plate besides one huge game in seattle. Chris Young was a stud, but make a transition from double A pitching to major league pitching is a big difference.
Little unclear - does your scenario involve signing Konerko and getting Delgado?
If not, we replace Konerko/Dye with Delgado/Pierre - we know that makes us worse defensively; it hurts our pitching depth; how much better offensively will we be, especially as we lose a lot of power there (subtract 25-30 homers from our total losing dye and adding pierre)? Who's our 3 hitter? Iguchi? Risky.
Where does Rowand play? Right? We're still killed defensively in the outfield with Pods/Pierre and Rowand doesn't have a RF's arm.
How much speed do you really need at the top of the order, with Delgado hitting in there? How bad was Iguchi overall? He had one of the better OBPs on the team. Was 2 hole a real offensive weakness?

samram
11-20-2005, 11:10 AM
You know, I just woke up and Im too tired to co copy and paste qoutes, sorry.

The one that stuck out: Pierre is not a bum, the Marlins won the world series with him.

We won the world series with Pods leading off, and I know the point was he was a fire starter for them, and I know Ozzie is dying to have his pierre/Castillo combo he had in florida and thats he he is drooling over Pods and Pierre.

Im not so sure on this. The main Idea would be drop Tadahito back into the 3 spot. Now I love Tadahito, huge fan of him and what he did last year, but did anyone else think pitchers figured him out in the playoffs. He was attrocious at the plate during the playoffs, besides the one huge home run, and even though he did hit a lot of home runs in Japan, I don't really know if he has 25 home run potential in the MLB. What scares me most about him, he was just an average bunter, and relied more on moving runners over by hitting to the right side. With 2 guys on base infront of him, thats going to mean more DP's if he is still in that habit. It will be a MAJOR adjustment for him.



Well, I don't know what the plan for the third spot would be, but I think it's a stretch to say that Iguchi is smart enough to change his mentality from that of a run producer to that of run facilitator, but not smart enough to change back.

jabrch
11-20-2005, 11:18 AM
Juan Pierre to DH, pods in LF, Rowand/Anderson in Center, Dye in RF.

Just kidding, but I wouldn't be shocked if the Sox made a statement by using a speedy DH this coming season, instead of a power DH. I could even see the #2 spot being our DH.

As silly as that sounds, and as much as the BP community would roar over it, that's the right thing to do. Pods is our worst defensive OF. An OF with Dye, Rowand and Pierre would be pretty damn solid. You'd have Pods and Brian Anderson also to deal with. I imagine that if we don't add an OF/DH bat, then we will see a significant rotation where everyone gets a day a week at DH, and we see a lot of guys getting even more days off then they did last year.

By the way, I haven't heard anyone complaining lately about all the days off that Ozzie gave guys throughout the season to keep them fresh for the post season. I wonder why that is?

Tragg
11-20-2005, 11:31 AM
As silly as that sounds, and as much as the BP community would roar over it, that's the right thing to do. Pods is our worst defensive OF. An OF with Dye, Rowand and Pierre would be pretty damn solid. You'd have Pods and Brian Anderson also to deal with. I imagine that if we don't add an OF/DH bat, then we will see a significant rotation where everyone gets a day a week at DH, and we see a lot of guys getting even more days off then they did last year.

By the way, I haven't heard anyone complaining lately about all the days off that Ozzie gave guys throughout the season to keep them fresh for the post season. I wonder why that is?
Even if Pierre's slap hitting finding more holes than it did last year, we won't score any more runs than we did this year. Only 2 players on the team who can really drive in runs. Outfield D somewhat better, less power, and something's weaker (we won't get Pierre for free). I can envision a rotation of Pierre/Pods/CF/DH, but another piece needs to be added, probably at the expense of Rowand. Maybe Rowand for Huff (in the theme of players off of terrible years; Huff's value is way down, although maybe TB thinks Baldelli can handle CF). Lots of flexibility to give players rest, play DH, 1st, various outfield positions, etc.

TheOldRoman
11-20-2005, 11:39 AM
As silly as that sounds, and as much as the BP community would roar over it, that's the right thing to do. Pods is our worst defensive OF. An OF with Dye, Rowand and Pierre would be pretty damn solid. You'd have Pods and Brian Anderson also to deal with. I imagine that if we don't add an OF/DH bat, then we will see a significant rotation where everyone gets a day a week at DH, and we see a lot of guys getting even more days off then they did last year.

By the way, I haven't heard anyone complaining lately about all the days off that Ozzie gave guys throughout the season to keep them fresh for the post season. I wonder why that is?
The only way we can DH Scotty is if several of our fielding positions are loaded with power. So unless we acuire Manny for LF, Griffey for CF, Guerrero for RF. Payrod for 3B, Tejada for SS, and Soriano for 2B (ok, I am exaggerating just a little), we wont be able to have a DH with zero power. We relied on power as much as speed in 05, if not more so. Ozzie and KW want to ad speed, but they cant really do it at the expense of power.

DickAllen72
11-20-2005, 09:07 PM
As silly as that sounds, and as much as the BP community would roar over it, that's the right thing to do. Pods is our worst defensive OF. An OF with Dye, Rowand and Pierre would be pretty damn solid. You'd have Pods and Brian Anderson also to deal with. I imagine that if we don't add an OF/DH bat, then we will see a significant rotation where everyone gets a day a week at DH, and we see a lot of guys getting even more days off then they did last year.

By the way, I haven't heard anyone complaining lately about all the days off that Ozzie gave guys throughout the season to keep them fresh for the post season. I wonder why that is?

I've been thinking along the same lines.

Basically, the Sox would have the same people in the lineup as last year with the exception of Pierre replacing Carl. Now I'm probably the biggest Carl Everett fan on this board, and we would be losing his pop and clutch RBI's, but replacing him with Pierre is intriguing.

2005 WS lineup:
Pods
Iguchi
Dye
Konerko
Everett
Pierzynski
Rowand
Crede
Uribe

2006 possible lineup:
Pods
Pierre
Dye
Konerko
Iguchi
Pierzynski
Rowand
Crede
Uribe

If Iguchi proves to be a good RBI man at the major league level, this lineup works. That would be the main question.

BTW, I've always liked the idea of having no "DH" on the team but rather having nine good ballplayers in the lineup with players taking turns at the DH role allowing the manager to rest players while still keeping their bats in the lineup.

soxwon
11-20-2005, 10:30 PM
If this does happen they'd probably move Rowand to Florida.


where does thome play?
rowands a goner if we get pierre and thome.

Taliesinrk
11-20-2005, 11:55 PM
How about this trade

Sox would trade
Rowand
Marte
Garland
2 prospects

and the Sox would get
Pierre
Delgado
Mota
Not a chance.. are you serious? they'd have to pick up every players salary in that trade.. why don't you throw in mark, freddy and jose for good measure???


More likely... and somewhat hopefully...
Sox Would Trade:
Rowand
Marte
Perhaps a prospect or 2

Marlins would trade:
Delgado
Pierre

This is not out of the realm of possibility.. Marlins want to dump salary.. it doesn't appear that everyone on here is realizing this; no matter how many times it's been posted..
Only think I worry about is that I love losing Aaron's arm (and toughness) out there that the Sox would give up.. But I think I could live with the result...

Tragg
11-21-2005, 12:22 AM
More likely... and somewhat hopefully...
Sox Would Trade:
Rowand
Marte
Perhaps a prospect or 2

Marlins would trade:
Delgado
Pierre


You know, I would hope it would be something like that - as the salary absorber, it's high time we get the talent edge.
But even WITH that, I don't see us improved from last year, presuming we don't re-sign Konerko. Delgado is a bit of an improvement over Konerko; I see PIerre as an overall downgrade from Rowand (defensively for sure) and we haven't gotten a 3 hitter. So you do a great trade like that and we still aren't signficantly improved from last year (regardless of one's opinion on Pierre). Still need to make another move.

Randar68
11-21-2005, 09:14 AM
You know, I would hope it would be something like that - as the salary absorber, it's high time we get the talent edge.
But even WITH that, I don't see us improved from last year, presuming we don't re-sign Konerko. Delgado is a bit of an improvement over Konerko; I see PIerre as an overall downgrade from Rowand (defensively for sure) and we haven't gotten a 3 hitter. So you do a great trade like that and we still aren't signficantly improved from last year (regardless of one's opinion on Pierre). Still need to make another move.

Not to nitpick, but you certainly get a #3 hitter in Delgado. But, you're still short a #4 hitter. I don't see Dye or Iguchi in that role, so they still have to address it by resigning Konerko, getting Giles (would push Delgado to #4), or pursuing someone else via trade.

Optipessimism
11-21-2005, 02:21 PM
Ozzie wants to add speed, add power, and maintain or improve his defense. Here's what is the best possible scenario IMO:

1. Resign PK to play 1B.

2. Sox trade Rowand for Pierre. Pierre can leadoff and play LF so Pods can DH and hit second, with the two rotating here and there to help save each others legs. Thomas is probably gone if this happens.

3. Sox offer up one of our top four starters for Abreu. If the Phils can't move Thome, they'll end up moving Bobby. We lose one starter, but then McCarthy just slides over to the fourth spot and El Duque becomes the no. 5. We lose a bit here, but we could always make a play at a guy like Washburn to fill this. If not, and if the Marlins would be willing to take a package of Marte + marginal prospect for Pierre instead, then Rowand can probably go to the Yanks for Pavano and salary relief or someone like Chacon. If not, then JD becomes expendable and he should have some nice value in a piss poor market after a comeback season, especially at the price we have him for. Either way, can get a solid fifth starter out of this and our top 3 is still dynamite.

4. Move Iguchi to the 3 spot instead of 5/6 for more speed and better lefty/righty balance at the top of the order, and get this:

L Pierre LF
L Podsednik DH
R Iguchi 2B
L Abreu RF
R Konerko 1B
L Pierzynski C
R Crede 3B
R Anderson CF
R Uribe SS

Before you tear into Tadahito batting third, recall his ability to take a pitch and hit to RF that helped us so much last year. Now imagine him up with Pods, Pierre, or both on base. Wow. And you can't pitch around him with Abreu behind him. We also have 5 SB threats on this team with a legitimate middle of the order and our defense has only gotten better. This may all seem like a deep-pink dream scenario, but it's all very possible.

mdep524
11-21-2005, 02:50 PM
Ozzie wants to add speed, add power, and maintain or improve his defense. Here's what is the best possible scenario IMO:

1. Resign PK to play 1B.

2. Sox trade Rowand for Pierre. Pierre can leadoff and play LF so Pods can DH and hit second, with the two rotating here and there to help save each others legs. Thomas is probably gone if this happens.

3. Sox offer up one of our top four starters for Abreu. If the Phils can't move Thome, they'll end up moving Bobby. We lose one starter, but then McCarthy just slides over to the fourth spot and El Duque becomes the no. 5. We lose a bit here, but we could always make a play at a guy like Washburn to fill this. If not, and if the Marlins would be willing to take a package of Marte + marginal prospect for Pierre instead, then Rowand can probably go to the Yanks for Pavano and salary relief or someone like Chacon. If not, then JD becomes expendable and he should have some nice value in a piss poor market after a comeback season, especially at the price we have him for. Either way, can get a solid fifth starter out of this and our top 3 is still dynamite.

4. Move Iguchi to the 3 spot instead of 5/6 for more speed and better lefty/righty balance at the top of the order, and get this:

L Pierre LF
L Podsednik DH
R Iguchi 2B
L Abreu RF
R Konerko 1B
L Pierzynski C
R Crede 3B
R Anderson CF
R Uribe SS

Before you tear into Tadahito batting third, recall his ability to take a pitch and hit to RF that helped us so much last year. Now imagine him up with Pods, Pierre, or both on base. Wow. And you can't pitch around him with Abreu behind him. We also have 5 SB threats on this team with a legitimate middle of the order and our defense has only gotten better. This may all seem like a deep-pink dream scenario, but it's all very possible. Hmm, interesting. I like where you're going with this- it's the "outside the box" type of thinking KW was quoted as liking recently. I'm not saying I would agree to all of this- is Abreu really that much better than just keeping Dye? Is the difference worth losing one of our 4 starters for?

But I like the Pods-Pierre-Iguchi top third, in whichever order Pods and Pierre hit. Pods at DH means better defense and, arguably, more rested legs for our biggest SB threat. The speed up and down that line up is amazing, I'm sure Ozzie would be drooling about possibilities. I could see KW and Ozzie at least thinking about an idea like this.

caulfield12
11-21-2005, 04:57 PM
Ozzie wants to add speed, add power, and maintain or improve his defense. Here's what is the best possible scenario IMO:

1. Resign PK to play 1B.

2. Sox trade Rowand for Pierre. Pierre can leadoff and play LF so Pods can DH and hit second, with the two rotating here and there to help save each others legs. Thomas is probably gone if this happens.

3. Sox offer up one of our top four starters for Abreu. If the Phils can't move Thome, they'll end up moving Bobby. We lose one starter, but then McCarthy just slides over to the fourth spot and El Duque becomes the no. 5. We lose a bit here, but we could always make a play at a guy like Washburn to fill this. If not, and if the Marlins would be willing to take a package of Marte + marginal prospect for Pierre instead, then Rowand can probably go to the Yanks for Pavano and salary relief or someone like Chacon. If not, then JD becomes expendable and he should have some nice value in a piss poor market after a comeback season, especially at the price we have him for. Either way, can get a solid fifth starter out of this and our top 3 is still dynamite.

4. Move Iguchi to the 3 spot instead of 5/6 for more speed and better lefty/righty balance at the top of the order, and get this:

L Pierre LF
L Podsednik DH
R Iguchi 2B
L Abreu RF
R Konerko 1B
L Pierzynski C
R Crede 3B
R Anderson CF
R Uribe SS

Before you tear into Tadahito batting third, recall his ability to take a pitch and hit to RF that helped us so much last year. Now imagine him up with Pods, Pierre, or both on base. Wow. And you can't pitch around him with Abreu behind him. We also have 5 SB threats on this team with a legitimate middle of the order and our defense has only gotten better. This may all seem like a deep-pink dream scenario, but it's all very possible.

One problem is that Abreu is not worth $8 million more than Dye any way you cut it, especially for a budget-conscious team.

We still have a lot of plodders in the middle of the line-up in Konerko, AJ and Crede....you cannot expect to have a fast catcher (unless you have Inge), but we should get much faster if we do happen to lose Paul. Josh Fields is a lot more athletic than Crede, overall.

What starter are you going to part with? Garcia or Garland? You know it will not be Garcia....it might make some sense if we KNEW Garland was gone after next season, but Abreus contract is onerous.

Not only that, you put a lot of pressure on McCarthy and El Duque...plus, you probably have to replace Contreras as well after 2006. I think the pitching proved itself this season, and I do not see the logic of losing one of our top three starters for a marginal increase in RF in terms of production and a loss of an additional $4-5 million in payroll flexibility in RF with Abreu added to the roster.

Domeshot17
11-21-2005, 08:41 PM
Its so tough to move Iguchi out of that 2 hole. As an MLB rookie, he had the nice luxury of being able to try to move runners over but It is a huge gamble to see if the man is capable of hitting 20+ home runs and 80+ Rbis.


The Abreu situation isnt a bad thought, but I would go Abreu Konerko Dye Iguchi. Iguchi just scares me, even though he was a big time run producer in Japan, its hard to say if it could work or not in MLB. If we get the same numbers fom his as last year, or very similiar, then it is easy to say Iguchi is a 2 or a 6 hitter, but doesnt belong in the heart of the order. The only plus I See about putting him in the heart of the order is
I know it is easy to fall in the love with the take it right field approach of Iguchi, and thats good with a runner on third, but remember a lot of those take it to the right side were ground balls, and if that happens its more DP's. So you almost have to take Iguchi out of his mindset, and hope he goes back to the power he produced in Japan.

Now you are taking Iguchi out of what he does best, putting a ton of added pressure on him to be a 3 hitter, and you are looking at a 1-2-3 that possibly puts out under 20 homers the entire year combined. You got PK and Abreu 4 and 5, which is nice in the sense Abreu is a first half hitter and Paulie is a second half hitter.

There is no insurance if Anderson plays like he did when he came up, inconsistent and tight. El Duque in the 5 hole WITH Bmac in the 4 leaves no room for Elduques semi annual DL stints.

Getting PAvano provides insurance, but now you have PAvano at 10 a year, Konerko at 13, Abreu at 14. Thats 37 mil tied up on 3 guys for atleast 3 years. The payroll after all of that could hit 100 mil, and thats about 10-11 more than we can realisitically run out on the field. Theres no room financially to pick up someone if Anderson struggles, and the only solution is then hope another rookie is ready to come up and play. Too Much Risk Reward and financial restraint.

and to the arguement Pods only DH's with big time power at all positions, its a foolish arguement. If you got a Giles type, and kept Rowand, than since all 4 will be in the lineup,you DH whoever gives you the weakest D in the OF, Which is Pods is almost all cases. Just cuz ESPN won't like it doesnt mean it won't work, see 2005.

Optipessimism
11-21-2005, 11:09 PM
Its so tough to move Iguchi out of that 2 hole. As an MLB rookie, he had the nice luxury of being able to try to move runners over but It is a huge gamble to see if the man is capable of hitting 20+ home runs and 80+ Rbis.

I think Iguchi would be great for the 3 hole because his situation changes depending on who it is on base before him, and he is shown to be very good making adjustments so far. IMO, if Pierre gets on, Pods can drop down a bunt to get him to third and maybe even beat out the bunt. If that happens, then you have to pitch to Iguchi while still worrying about Pods on first. EVEN if Tadahito just hits a grond ball to the right side, Pierre scores and Pods likely stays out of the DP. That scenario provides one run with only out out and a RISP for Abreu. Granted, it won't always be like that, but even when Iguchi is in swing away mode the pitcher is forced to come right at him. With a speedy runner on base this usually means more fastballs, and with Abreu behind him means the pitcher has to attack him. I like that idea a lot, because even if Iguchi leads off an inning he still probably gets a decent pitch to hit. IMO, Iguchi still has the freedom to use his power and probably hits closer to 25 HRs (whoever said your no. 3 hitter has to hit 30-40 HRs? If he's driving in runs then that's great.) Besides, a Pierre-Pods-Iguchi 1-2-3 could mean 130-140 SB's per year or more at the top, and I think that by putting Iguchi lower in the order wastes his speed by blocking him with slow AJ, Crede, PK, etc. I also think that he gets a heck of a lot more protection between Pods and Abreu than he ever gets between two of the above.

There is no insurance if Anderson plays like he did when he came up, inconsistent and tight.

Anderson gives us defense, power, and a threat on the bases from the bottom of the order. Like Rowand last year, anything he contributes offensively is a bonus, and I do think he will be able to match Rowand's 2005 production.

Getting PAvano provides insurance, but now you have PAvano at 10 a year, Konerko at 13, Abreu at 14. Thats 37 mil tied up on 3 guys for atleast 3 years.

The Yanks want Rowand bad. IMO, this is the perfect chance to revisit the Loaiza-for-Contreras steal KW did before. The Yanks ate 3-4M per year, so if they did that again and ate even 3-4M per that would then that means we'd be paying 6-7M per, which is more than affordable for us. Konerko is the guy making the big change, as I'm sure if we offered up one of our starters for Abreu the Phils would eat a nice chunk of that contract as well. The Phils need SP and no one on the FA market is any better than what we could offer. Millwood is good, but he wants five years. A deal with the Sox allows them to pick up a better piece much cheaper and without all the risk.

For example, if we traded Garcia we'd lose 9mil. If we can agree to the Phils eating enough to bring that contract down to 13M/ year, we are only adding 4M here. Add 6-7M for Pavano (which makes El Duque expendable) and we are only adding 2-3M. Add about 1-2M or so from Marte to Pierre, and so far we've only added 12-14M/yr. This is the Thome contract that we'd be trying to get from the Phils which would be a big risk and handcuff us. Now, it would be up to JR to reward KW and raise the payroll enough to resign PK at 13-14M more, and if he does we could move JD's 5M or so too. All in all, this could be done for about 20-23M extra after the raises to Garland, AJ, and Crede.

**EDIT: Forgot to take out Rowand's salary too. This could be done for 17-20M + raises to Gar, AJ, and Joe. I think Uncle Jerry should step up and do it.

If you got a Giles type, and kept Rowand, than since all 4 will be in the lineup,you DH whoever gives you the weakest D in the OF, Which is Pods is almost all cases. Just cuz ESPN won't like it doesnt mean it won't work, see 2005.

Yuck. Let's get some defense. Giles is going downhill and IMO I'd rather spend the extra 3-4M or so on Abreu. We don't need Rowand because he isn't giving us offense and we have a better defender waiting to play. Ozzie wants two leadoff hitters and the only leadoff hitter here is Pods.

Optipessimism
11-21-2005, 11:36 PM
One problem is that Abreu is not worth $8 million more than Dye any way you cut it, especially for a budget-conscious team.

What? If that's how you slice it please stay the hell away from my pizza!

Dye:
2002: .252 AVG 24 HR 86 RBI .333 OBP .459 SLG
2003: .172 AVG 4 HR 20 RBI .261 OBP .253 SLG
2004: .265 AVG 23 HR 80 RBI .329 OBP .464 SLG
2005: .274 AVG 31 HR 86 RBI .333 OBP .512 SLG

Abreu:
2002: .308 AVG 20 HR 85 RBI .413 OBP .521 SLG
2003: .303 AVG 20 HR 101 RBI .409 OBP .468 SLG
2004: .301 AVG 30 HR 105 RBI .428 OBP .544 SLG
2005: .286 AVG 24 HR 102 RBI .405 OBP .474 SLG

Can't you see the trend here?? Dye has what is for him a career year and Abreu is coming off a down year power wise. Abreu is worth the upgrade because he can be a legit middle of the order threat while Dye is more of a 6-7 hitter IMO.

Tragg
11-21-2005, 11:52 PM
3. Sox offer up one of our top four starters for Abreu. If the Phils can't move Thome, they'll end up moving Bobby. We lose one starter, but then McCarthy just slides over to the fourth spot and El Duque becomes the no.

Philly needs to dump some salary. Bobby is a real good player, but perhaps bit overpaid for his production, depending on how you look at things and analyze stats. Anyway, if we're absorbing salary, we don't give up a top pitcher for him. We should get the player edge. I'm not looking for a Lee/Podsednik situation, but a lighter version thereof. Maybe we have to do that, but remember, Philly REALLY needs a Center Fielder (as do a lot of teams, which is what makes Rowand pretty tradeable) and they need BULLPEN help, things we have available to some extent. I'm thinking Rowand/Marte/Non-Young prospect - especially if they were willing to take Wells straight up.
I'd also consider Thome, who may be more of a salary dumpee, but at a lesser price of course.

Optipessimism
11-22-2005, 12:05 AM
Philly needs to dump some salary. Bobby is a real good player, but perhaps bit overpaid for his production, depending on how you look at things and analyze stats. Anyway, if we're absorbing salary, we don't give up a top pitcher for him. We should get the player edge. I'm not looking for a Lee/Podsednik situation, but a lighter version thereof. Maybe we have to do that, but remember, Philly REALLY needs a Center Fielder (as do a lot of teams, which is what makes Rowand pretty tradeable) and they need BULLPEN help, things we have available to some extent. I'm thinking Rowand/Marte/Non-Young prospect - especially if they were willing to take Wells straight up.
I'd also consider Thome, who may be more of a salary dumpee, but at a lesser price of course.

A trade like that would be wonderful for us, but I'm not sold that they would give up so little for him, even though his contract is huge. With the questions surrounding Thome, Abreu could be the main source of their firepower. Also, as far as being overrated offensively I disagree. I know the Phils play in a park better suited for hitters, but the Cell is still Coors East. IMO, a healthy Abreu who rebounds nicely can put up something like .320 38 120 or so in the Cell. That is in no way too much for a player of that calibre. Basically, Abreu is what we had in Maggs but with a little more focus on power as opposed to AVG.

Flight #24
11-22-2005, 12:23 AM
Philly needs to dump some salary. Bobby is a real good player, but perhaps bit overpaid for his production, depending on how you look at things and analyze stats. Anyway, if we're absorbing salary, we don't give up a top pitcher for him. We should get the player edge. I'm not looking for a Lee/Podsednik situation, but a lighter version thereof. Maybe we have to do that, but remember, Philly REALLY needs a Center Fielder (as do a lot of teams, which is what makes Rowand pretty tradeable) and they need BULLPEN help, things we have available to some extent. I'm thinking Rowand/Marte/Non-Young prospect - especially if they were willing to take Wells straight up.
I'd also consider Thome, who may be more of a salary dumpee, but at a lesser price of course.

Why exactly so the Phils do this? To move Howard to the OF, a position he's already demonstrated he can't play? Or to still have to move Thome, and then look for a replacement power hitter?

Phils will move Thome. Unless they need to cut more than that level of salary, they're not moving anyone else of significance.

Tragg
11-22-2005, 12:43 AM
Why exactly so the Phils do this? To move Howard to the OF, a position he's already demonstrated he can't play? Or to still have to move Thome, and then look for a replacement power hitter?

Phils will move Thome. Unless they need to cut more than that level of salary, they're not moving anyone else of significance.

Well, presumably (I know, a rumor) they offered him for Vernon Wells and Toronto turned it down. Vernons Wells is no great shakes himself, and this is a better package than Wells. Just speculating.

Thome out to come pretty darn cheap considering Phillies need to trade, his salary, and his injury. Becaue of what should be a low player price, if we can't sign PK, I'd get him and we'd still have trade material for a 3 hitter (the FA market is singularly miserable this year).

Jjav829
11-22-2005, 03:07 AM
Well, presumably (I know, a rumor) they offered him for Vernon Wells and Toronto turned it down. Vernons Wells is no great shakes himself, and this is a better package than Wells. Just speculating.

Thome out to come pretty darn cheap considering Phillies need to trade, his salary, and his injury. Becaue of what should be a low player price, if we can't sign PK, I'd get him and we'd still have trade material for a 3 hitter (the FA market is singularly miserable this year).

Vernon Wells is a far better player than Aaron Rowand. Wells has legitimate 30HR power and the ability to swipe a base here and there. And Rowand's biggest assest, his defense, doesn't give him any edge over Wells as Wells is even better defensively. Wells is a far better player than Rowand, hence the reason Toronto didn't pull the trigger on that deal.

caulfield12
11-22-2005, 08:14 AM
What? If that's how you slice it please stay the hell away from my pizza!

Dye:
2002: .252 AVG 24 HR 86 RBI .333 OBP .459 SLG
2003: .172 AVG 4 HR 20 RBI .261 OBP .253 SLG
2004: .265 AVG 23 HR 80 RBI .329 OBP .464 SLG
2005: .274 AVG 31 HR 86 RBI .333 OBP .512 SLG

Abreu:
2002: .308 AVG 20 HR 85 RBI .413 OBP .521 SLG
2003: .303 AVG 20 HR 101 RBI .409 OBP .468 SLG
2004: .301 AVG 30 HR 105 RBI .428 OBP .544 SLG
2005: .286 AVG 24 HR 102 RBI .405 OBP .474 SLG

Can't you see the trend here?? Dye has what is for him a career year and Abreu is coming off a down year power wise. Abreu is worth the upgrade because he can be a legit middle of the order threat while Dye is more of a 6-7 hitter IMO.

Abreu is also getting to the point in his career when he is more of a risk, because you can have 2-3 Dyes for the price of one Abreu. It´s the same philosophy we will probably use with filling the DH role.

Statistics can be argued any way you want, but the White Sox are not going to acquire a player like Furcal or Abreu and then be forced to auction off a Uribe or Dye for less than top value.

Is Abreu a better player? Yes. Is he from Ozzie´s homeland? Yes. Is he worthy $8 million more to the Sox? No, just like Furcal is not worth $6 million more than Uribe...any deal that involves trading Garcia and Garland for additional offense is not going to make this team more competitive long-term, because all we do is end up rebuilding and having to dump the offensive players due to our lack of pitching foundation.

Then we will get to see Anderson, Young, Owens and Sweeney and look up at the Indians for 2-3 seasons. Adding a long-term player like Abreu blocks Anderson, an affordable player the Sox are counting on for the next 6 seasons. If we don´t have enough younger players in the mix, our pitching staff can never be maintained intact.

caulfield12
11-22-2005, 08:19 AM
Well, presumably (I know, a rumor) they offered him for Vernon Wells and Toronto turned it down. Vernons Wells is no great shakes himself, and this is a better package than Wells. Just speculating.

Thome out to come pretty darn cheap considering Phillies need to trade, his salary, and his injury. Becaue of what should be a low player price, if we can't sign PK, I'd get him and we'd still have trade material for a 3 hitter (the FA market is singularly miserable this year).

Wells slumped the first two months last season, so he fell off the radar screen a little. Offensively, he was one of THE best players in the majors a couple of seasons ago, and he is still a much younger player compared to the names that are being bandied back and forth each and every day here.

I think Wells´ prime is still to come. He is the best player on Toronto´s roster, and to think the Blue Jays would want our 8th or 9th best position player is ludicrous.

Wells covers more ground than anyone except for Andruw Jones and a fully healthy Torii Hunter. You cannot even begin to compare him with Aaron Rowand.