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bjmarte
12-17-2001, 11:51 AM
Regardless of how you judge the Ritchie trade, is anyone going to be happy if KW doesn't get any more deals done before the season starts? I haven't heard any thing about rumors or possible trades at all. Maybe I would feel differently if the Erstad trade had gone through (although I think we would have been giving up too much) but it just seems like KW could be doing more to improve this team.

RedPinStripes
12-17-2001, 11:56 AM
Originally posted by bjmarte
Regardless of how you judge the Ritchie trade, is anyone going to be happy if KW doesn't get any more deals done before the season starts? I haven't heard any thing about rumors or possible trades at all. Maybe I would feel differently if the Erstad trade had gone through (although I think we would have been giving up too much) but it just seems like KW could be doing more to improve this team.


I'll be real pissed off if he doesn't try to move Ray, Clayton or Lee.

bjmarte
12-17-2001, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes



I'll be real pissed off if he doesn't try to move Ray, Clayton or Lee.

I think just getting rid of Clayton improves the team, whereas I think we would need to actually get something for Lee or Durham (esp Lee). I think Singleton is a really good candidate for trade as well. We would need to get something for him too but, as Red has pointed out before, an attractive bat girl might be enough.

Any chance of the Erstad deal being resurrected? Has anyone heard about any other possible deals?

AsInWreck
12-17-2001, 12:06 PM
i'd still like to see sox dump clayton and pick up
another starting pitcher/ i wouldn't mind giving up lee and a prospect for a good starter/i'm a afraid if kw tried to pull off a trade like that though he'd give away the farm(system)/i'd be happy w/ just about anything for clayton but a utility IF would be good.

AsInWreck
12-17-2001, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes



I'll be real pissed off if he doesn't try to move Ray, Clayton or Lee.

I don't see how Sox would end up w/ better option at 2b that rayray - i don;t dsiagree w/ clayton and lee though

LongDistanceFan
12-17-2001, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes



I'll be real pissed off if he doesn't try to move Ray, Clayton or Lee. cool image
welcome aboard

LongDistanceFan
12-17-2001, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


I don't see how Sox would end up w/ better option at 2b that rayray - i don;t dsiagree w/ clayton and lee though welcome aboard s well.

ref your org post, he needs to do something else to make this team better.

getting rid of ray, improves the team thru subtraction and with prospects, and lets jose play 2b with the kid in the minors develop 1 more yr.

AsInWreck
12-17-2001, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


getting rid of ray, improves the team thru subtraction and with prospects, and lets jose play 2b with the kid in the minors develop 1 more yr.

You aren't seriously suggesting that playing jose out of position at 2nd and leaving clayton at ss is abetter option than valentin/durham up the middle? At least at 3b valentin is still on the same side of the infield and those results weren't all that pretty. Durham is the 1st decent 2b the sox have had since i've been a fan, and while i admit his play last season was dissppointing I don't think Ray will so easily be replaced. I mean I'm a guy who grew up on scott fletcher and fred manrique so maybe i'm a bit conservative

RichH55
12-17-2001, 12:46 PM
Dealing Ray-Ray and moving Jose to 2nd really creates more problems that it solves. It necessitates keeping Clayton and his anemic first half starts, the DP won't be what it was when we made the playoffs, Jose is not a 2nd baseman and that could really show(plus a waste of a rocket arm and really good range, not to mention his knack for turning double plays), plus who is your lead-off hitter then? Plus I think the fact that Durham is in a contract can mean some better production both at the plate and in the field, and dealing Ray now isnt exactly dealing him at peak value....I think the time to make a decesion on Ray is after the year, see what his production and see how our 2nd prospect develops with another year down on the farm. If we decide to deal Ray rather than :hitless than we have some problems as an organization

PaleHoseGeorge
12-17-2001, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Dealing Ray-Ray and moving Jose to 2nd really creates more problems that it solves. It necessitates keeping Clayton and his anemic first half starts, the DP won't be what it was when we made the playoffs, Jose is not a 2nd baseman and that could really show(plus a waste of a rocket arm and really good range, not to mention his knack for turning double plays), plus who is your lead-off hitter then? Plus I think the fact that Durham is in a contract can mean some better production both at the plate and in the field, and dealing Ray now isnt exactly dealing him at peak value....I think the time to make a decesion on Ray is after the year, see what his production and see how our 2nd prospect develops with another year down on the farm. If we decide to deal Ray rather than :hitless than we have some problems as an organization


I want to dispel any possible rumors that Rich is actually an alternate identity I've created for myself! However, I couldn't have stated this any better than he did. :smile:

BTW, Welcome to the board, Rich! You can thank me for reaching "WSI Regular" status so quickly. :smile: :smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
12-17-2001, 01:02 PM
Hey number 1,000 for the webmaster! Took long enough.

Oops! 1001! Woo-hoo!!!

:)

FarWestChicago
12-17-2001, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
I want to dispel any possible rumors that Rich is actually an alternate identity I've created for myself! However, I couldn't have stated this any better than he did. :smile:
Hey, look who reached 1,000 posts. :smile:

RedPinStripes
12-17-2001, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck


I don't see how Sox would end up w/ better option at 2b that rayray - i don;t dsiagree w/ clayton and lee though

If Clayton were to stay, I'd like to see Valentine at 2b. Tony G can do what Ray does.

RedPinStripes
12-17-2001, 01:11 PM
:graff
"I can fall asleep out there, boot every ball to my right and fly out."

AsInWreck
12-17-2001, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by RedPinStripes


If Clayton were to stay, I'd like to see Valentine at 2b. Tony G can do what Ray does.

I don't see graf scoring 120 runs a year

bjmarte
12-17-2001, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Dealing Ray-Ray and moving Jose to 2nd really creates more problems that it solves. It necessitates keeping Clayton and his anemic first half starts ... Jose is not a 2nd baseman and that could really show ... dealing Ray now isnt exactly dealing him at peak value....I think the time to make a decesion on Ray is after the year, see what his production and see how our 2nd prospect develops with another year down on the farm. If we decide to deal Ray rather than :hitless than we have some problems as an organization

I pretty well agree with that. I think most of my uneasyness with this team as it stands is the fact that Clayton is still hanging around. I would like to see Manos back at ss and I would like to see Clayton with bamboo shoots under his fingernails, or playing for Cleaveland.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 02:26 PM
All of which leads me to the question...who still could use a SS? Dodgers still up there IMO(the kid they just got isnt ready), but after that the options are dwindling....Damnit WHO? Who is playing SS for the Orioles these days? Don't make me just starting naming random teams

RichH55
12-17-2001, 02:30 PM
Man what a hard business baseball is. Case in Point: A GM deals :hitless for a pretty decent pitching prospect + all while having no leverage because he has :payrod and a rather substancial amount of money committed to him....and his reward is to lose his job



:hitless
See KW? Deal me and lose your job!

:KW
The choice makes a good point! Ok, no Clayton, how about Jon Garland?

ball state aaron
12-17-2001, 02:37 PM
I would like us to upgrade our defense, with all of our young pitching getting to the major league level. lee is a terrible left fielder. who can forget lee in minnesota having no clue. he doesn't have much range, or an arm.

ray has terrible range on ground balls. we have several ground ball pitchers. his lack of range cost us almost every game with base runners, and sometimes runs. ray SHOULD be a center fielder. it seems to me ray doesn't get good jumps at 2nd, but he can flat out fly once he gets going.

clayton is a 2nd baseman. he has better range than ray, but not a strong enough arm for short. manos should be ss.
he has the range and the arm.

singleton is a decent cf. his bat is what is hurting him. while he has a decent average, he doesn't get on base enough. he has good speed, he needs to get on base.

Jerry_Manuel
12-17-2001, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by bjmarte
Regardless of how you judge the Ritchie trade, is anyone going to be happy if KW doesn't get any more deals done before the season starts? I haven't heard any thing about rumors or possible trades at all. Maybe I would feel differently if the Erstad trade had gone through (although I think we would have been giving up too much) but it just seems like KW could be doing more to improve this team.

Someone help me out here. People really don't want Williams to make trades because he'll give up way to much. And Reinsdorf told him no free agents. So how's he supposed to improve the team?

RichH55
12-17-2001, 04:58 PM
That idea isnt the worst I've heard. Clayton to 2nd, Manos at SS, and Durham at CF. I always wondered about Durham in the outfield, he has the best range on pop-outs and short fly outs to RF that I've seen, and it seems to me that Cominsky is a Park the CF can cheat in a bit...hey at least its not Enron, run a ball down hit the flag....
So essentially what you get is Manos at SS, which is priority one in my book...Clayton at 2nd(which that waste of space could be doing in Winter Ball right now), who arguablly is better defensively than Durham, but can he turn the DP like Ray can? Thats a big ? Ray in Center is interesting as well because you can always move him back to 2nd next year(options for the front office) and a 20 HR, .340 OBP lead-off hitter who plays CF, is worth less than one who plays 2B, plus Clayton's numbers you can probably get away with at 2nd with Ray's numbers being better than Singleton's in CF....This plan screws Singleton AND Rowand, so its a novel idea in that regard

Jerry_Manuel
12-17-2001, 05:02 PM
Durham doesn't want to move to center field. He feels he can make more money at 2nd.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 05:07 PM
Hmmm thinking more about this idea, I still rather like it, gives you flexibility, and if you are gonna mess with a guys head I'd rather it be Ray, Chris, or Hitless than Manos.....him playing SS and being the focal point is what this team needs....Plus Ray is in a contract year, so he will aim to please....if Ray works in CF, then you have leverage from all sorts of angles, you can let Clayton go(finally) and bring up the 2nd base prospect(Hummel IIRC). You can move Ray back to 2nd and let Borchard play CF, you can leave Ray at CF, move Borchard to RF, Mags to Left(all after this year), bring up the 2nd base prospect, have Manos at SS, and you get to see if Crede can play, and if anyone of your SS, 2nd, or CF gets hurt you have better than adequate replacements ready to go...Ray-Ray will still have the leverage of hitting lead-off but since I see Carlos having a good to great year at the plate he will have trade value if it comes to that...I'd rather not have a rookie 2B trying to hit leadoff as well....You don't get to really see what Rowand can do, but I'd rather see if Crede can get it done more than Rowand


:KW
Sounds complicated?

:reinsy
Leverage, eh? Low cost prospects? Me like

:jerry
Options? Why didn't you say so

RedPinStripes
12-17-2001, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
Durham doesn't want to move to center field. He feels he can make more money at 2nd.


:ray
"I'm Ray Ray. Get it right. I'm too good to listen to anyone. I don't need a bigger glove."

RichH55
12-17-2001, 05:10 PM
Does Ray-Ray control the line-up? Bench him a few games, having an attitude problem and sub-par stats aren't a good way to get that raise either...and suddenly I'm stealing ideas from "Little Big League"...ah I guess there could be worse inspiration

:discomoron
Someone call me?

voodoochile
12-17-2001, 05:42 PM
Don't know about more trades. Would love to see another veteran starter or catcher, but they will cost a bundle and don't know if KW is willing to go that far.

Can we please stop talking about moving players to new positions? It was a bad idea last year (in hindsight) to allow Valentin to be considered a CF. Now we want to move Ray out there? NO, NO, 1000 times NO. Let's not mess with Ray's head when he is the only viable leadoff hitter this team has (barring a breakout year from Rowand, something I am extremely skeptical of).

One thing to do that will definitely make the team stronger, Dump Clayton. Do it now do it fast, get whatever you can and pay part of his salary if you have to. Put Jose back at SS where he belongs. Get this team healthy and play the people as closely as you can to the 2000 team's positions (with Crede at 3B instead of Herbert) and let the team develop.

Face it, the only way this team competes for a championship is by developing players, because there is NO WAY they can ever outspend the YankMES. It isn't going to happen, ever. That means we HAVE to let the young kids play and develop. The pitchers start, the kids come up and the team sees what happens, then maybe next year if all goes well, they can sign a catcher and pick up a little more pitching depth (fireballing set up men ala Nelson and possibly another starter if the kids don't really take off this year) and make a run or two at a championship. No matter what we do, this will probably NOT be the Sox year for a WS title (barring a miracle from the young staff), so let the kids play and develop and see where that takes up.

If the right trade comes up for a genuine #1 pitcher, or a top of the line catcher, take it, but don't start moving players all over the place and don't trade our only leadoff hitter unless we get one back in kind. I really would prefer not to trade Ray at all, but that is JMO...

bjmarte
12-17-2001, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Someone help me out here. People really don't want Williams to make trades because he'll give up way to much. And Reinsdorf told him no free agents. So how's he supposed to improve the team?

I never said I didn't want KW to make trades. I would just like for him to make better trades. For instance, one that would benefit the team more than it would hurt it.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 06:01 PM
<<I never said I didn't want KW to make trades. I would just like for him to make better trades. For
instance, one that would benefit the team more than it would hurt it.>>


Well that simplifies matters now doesn't it? Ummm can we have a bonafide starting catcher now? Sure since you are only making deals that will help you, we will give him away for free:)

Heres to optimism that borders on being polly-anna in nature :gulp:

bjmarte
12-17-2001, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
<<I never said I didn't want KW to make trades. I would just like for him to make better trades. For
instance, one that would benefit the team more than it would hurt it.>>


Well that simplifies matters now doesn't it? Ummm can we have a bonafide starting catcher now? Sure since you are only making deals that will help you, we will give him away for free:)

Heres to optimism that borders on being polly-anna in nature :gulp:

You are right. As a sox fan I should know better than to be "polly-anna"-ish enought to think that management would make a trade that would benefit the team

RichH55
12-17-2001, 06:43 PM
Oh cmon man...I was just having a little fun....you just made that sound way too simplified and matter of fact....no worries



:slowswing
I still love you! :whiner:

bjmarte
12-17-2001, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Oh cmon man...I was just having a little fun....you just made that sound way too simplified and matter of fact....no worries



:slowswing
I still love you! :whiner:

:troll

RichH55
12-17-2001, 06:56 PM
Above:Not good enough to fill :moron 's shoes

bjmarte
12-17-2001, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Above:Not good enough to fill :moron 's shoes

You really don't have to try that hard. I think you're cool man, really.

:chimp
Me too