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RichH55
12-17-2001, 08:19 AM
I specifically want to hear from the Singleton supporters out there: Can Singleton be counted on to be a 4th Outfielder? If we upgraded to get a Giles or even got Kapler and Singleton was still here, why is the conventional wisdom that he won't be a 4th outfielder? He is suited to play that role, though his baserunning ablity for his tools leaves somehting to be desired, but if he won't/can't be a 4th outfielder, why did we ever deal/give away McKay Christensen? He didn't cost anything and even if he never learns how to hit major league pitching above .250, he is still IMO better defensively, and baserunning/speed wise than Singleton and younger to boot...Just looking for opinions out there and I like to mention names from the past :D: Well hope this starts a nice little thread, but what the hell do i know? :?: Wait, thats not my line, damn...this message board stuff is harder than it looks

LongDistanceFan
12-17-2001, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
I specifically want to hear from the Singleton supporters out there: Can Singleton be counted on to be a 4th Outfielder? If we upgraded to get a Giles or even got Kapler and Singleton was still here, why is the conventional wisdom that he won't be a 4th outfielder? He is suited to play that role, though his baserunning ablity for his tools leaves somehting to be desired, but if he won't/can't be a 4th outfielder, why did we ever deal/give away McKay Christensen? He didn't cost anything and even if he never learns how to hit major league pitching above .250, he is still IMO better defensively, and baserunning/speed wise than Singleton and younger to boot...Just looking for opinions out there and I like to mention names from the past :D: Well hope this starts a nice little thread, but what the hell do i know? :?: Wait, thats not my line, damn...this message board stuff is harder than it looks i am happy with chris and yes, he can put up the same numbers........ that is imo.

we have other needs than cf, i would desperately use my resources for those post, instead getting a cf. that is unless it was a knock deal............... but then what is a knock out deal...

btw........ welcome aboard.

Spiff
12-17-2001, 08:57 AM
Neither Rowand nor Singleton has convinced me they deserve the job. Singleton has proven more but he has had more playing time. But I don't fill out the lineup card and I don't know what JM is thinking.

Christensen was not that great he was one of those that never had a chance to play though. I don't see much difference between him and Singleton, who is just as good defensively IMO.

What bugs me is Singleton doesn't know how to steal bases. 12 steals in 23 attempts for someone like him with decent speed is not good at all. Rowand 5 steals in 6 attempts—i like that a lot more.

But Singleton is probably on the trading block anyway after the Anaheim situation.

czalgosz
12-17-2001, 08:58 AM
Singleton is fine if you match him up well. Against lefties, or really hard-throwing righties, Singleton is a worthless hitter. Other than that, he's tolerable. If you're counting on him to produce offensively, you'll be disappointed.

If he could only walk more, he'd be a real threat at the plate, but his low OBP is a killer. But if the Sox find another starting CF, and use Chris as a backup, I would be happy keeping Chris.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 09:05 AM
:Mckay
What about me?

With Liefer here to hit, and Singleton and Rowand out there to make us long for the day Borchard is major-league ready wouldn't a guy like Mckay make sense? I guess Julio Ramirez can take his place, but Mckay was great defensively and with speed...better than either Rowand or Singleton in those regards, and you have a guy like Liefer on the bench who is essentially a professional hitter. You can carry a guy who can hit and spot start in both the IF and OF, a guy like Mckay who takes care of the defensive replacement and pinch runner, and finding a utilty infielder shouldn't be hard ever...What exactly did we get for Mckay again? :?:

RichH55
12-17-2001, 09:14 AM
:slowswing

Ha Ha...try and use your Mckay tag! It is to no avail. Never mention him in my presence again! Use speed to steal bases? You must be joking

Spiff
12-17-2001, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
:slowswing

Ha Ha...try and use your Mckay tag! It is to no avail. Never mention him in my presence again! Use speed to steal bases? You must be joking

lol I can't remember ever having a mckay tag.

But I can remember that he was not that good.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 09:31 AM
Fair enough as to not that good, he needed work to be an everyday CF, but as far as defense, speed, and baserunning/basestealing he was good and definately better than what we have. He was the quintessential 4th Outfielder. I still can't remember what we got from the dodgers for him, but I doubt it was much. Why give a guy away who can help the ballclub at low cost? Unless I'm totally forgetting a viable ballplayer the dodgers gave us, we should have kept Mckay...its a smart move to keep a guy who helps the team in some way than to give him away for nothing...the downside on Mckay was negligable

Soxboyrob
12-17-2001, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
What bugs me is Singleton doesn't know how to steal bases. 12 steals in 23 attempts for someone like him with decent speed is not good at all. Rowand 5 steals in 6 attempts—i like that a lot more.

But Singleton is probably on the trading block anyway after the Anaheim situation.

He probably is on the trading block but give Chris a little more credit if you will. Stats on Chris Basestealing abilities.....

2001 basestealing: 12 for 23 for a 52% success rate. Not great.

Basestealing prior to 2001: 42 for 54 for a 78% success rate. That's is borderline great.

Career basestealing, including 2001: 54 for 77 for a 70% success rate. Very good.

My tendency is to give Singleton the benefit of the doubt in that he's probably better than he showed last season. I clearly and distinctly remember his being called out on a few different occasions when the replay showed he was definitely safe on a steal of second base. My guess is he'll return to his previous basestealing form in 2002.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 10:00 AM
On Chris...he has what 3 years in the bigs? And to have a complete year(his most recent btw) a complete wash-out in terms of base-stealing doesnt say much about his skills. Plus in base-stealing alot of it is speed, instincts, and learning....Chris doesnt seem to be getting better in the last two columns which doesnt exactly help the first one. That his numbers are getting worse as he is supposed to be learning pitchers and their tendencies to bolster just having speed is a red flag for me. And 70% overall isnt that great, isn't the break-even point for base-stealin something like 66% success rate just to avoid costing your team runs overall?

:slowswing
Hey don't look at me like that! I just run til they tag me out!

MattSharp
12-17-2001, 10:26 AM
Even though Singleton came around at the end of season, I still think he can't hit for ****. He is a good fielder though.

As for Rowand, he hasn't been given a fair shot yet, and since Borchard isn't ready I think it's only fair that Rowand get a shot.

And why hasn't anyone mentioned Brian Simmons? I have also thought very highly of him and think he is better all around than Singleton?

harwar
12-17-2001, 10:27 AM
I won't be satisfied until my man,JULIO RAMIREZ,is the starting everday CF.This is his breakout year.

duke of dorwood
12-17-2001, 10:45 AM
Remember, Brian Simmons is now in the mix, and is good 4th outfielder material.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 10:59 AM
Yeah I had almost forgotten about Simmons, and probably for good reason. He has been hurt the last two years, no? I'm guessing they think they can turn Julio Ramirez into a player or unless Simmons is ridiculously redundant instead of just somewhat redundant. Bottomline is someone will be moved and that somone is looking an awful lot like :slowswing



:slowswing
Bring it on! I'm harder to get rid of than Jaime Navarro and Royce Clayton combined

RichH55
12-17-2001, 11:04 AM
Well I'm still waiting to hear what we got for Mckay that we needed to move him? And I definately too lazy to look it up :D: so somebody do the leg work here...As far as 4th OFs go, McKay would look better than Simmons and he's younger, plus if we have Mckay than no Simmons, you can still let julio develop in Triple-A, and the media isn't bringing up the Wells-Tor debacle even more with little snide comments.....all nice little things

RichH55
12-17-2001, 11:13 AM
By the Way....I love this board...so accepting....I'm here for one day and already I'm a regular Cheers! :gulp:

Kilroy
12-17-2001, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by RichH55
By the Way....I love this board...so accepting....I'm here for one day and already I'm a regular Cheers! :gulp:

this is a great board. Always good for some fun.

Back to the matter at hand. I don't know why there's all this talk about McKay Christiansen. He hasn't done anything to make me miss him on the Sox. I can live with Singleton in CF when the team is healthy and playing well. His D is solid, and anything you get from at the plate is gravy.

I think, however, if Rowand shows that he can hit, Singleton is outta here. And that's not so bad since Rowand can go get it in the field too. Either one is fine with me...

Spiff
12-17-2001, 11:34 AM
okokok I did the legwork.

http://www.canoe.ca/Slam010713/mlb_swap-ap.html

We got Wade Parrish for him.

And if you like the board, that means george's mission is succeeding. It's good that you feel welcome, it's a fun place to hang out.

Welcome aboard! :gulp:

Tragg
12-17-2001, 11:35 AM
the problem with singleton is that he cannot hit. He can't get on base, he is a free swinger and has no power.

Singleton, in contrast to clayton or alomar, plays a position in which a .330 OBP is well below average - it isn't hard to upgrade. Catchers that hit like alomar are common; shortstops that hit like clayton are the norm - most do. Centerfielders that hit like singleton are the exception.

It would be like having a first baseman who hits 18 homers a year. That's fine for a centerfielder, but unacceptable for a second baseman.

kermittheefrog
12-17-2001, 12:28 PM
I would bet the signing of Brian Simmons meant Singleton is out. They have almost the exact same skills. McKay was another guy with the same kind of skill set except faster and an even weaker hitter. Singleton should be getting really overpaid soon in arbitration too. I think Rowand and Simmons can share center and easily not be a dropoff from Slow-Swing.

btw Rich, welcome to the board

RichH55
12-17-2001, 12:31 PM
Hey thanks for the well wishes guys ....and Kermit I really like that quote...quality stuff

PaleHoseGeorge
12-17-2001, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
the problem with singleton is that he cannot hit. He can't get on base, he is a free swinger and has no power.

Singleton, in contrast to clayton or alomar, plays a position in which a .330 OBP is well below average - it isn't hard to upgrade. Catchers that hit like alomar are common; shortstops that hit like clayton are the norm - most do. Centerfielders that hit like singleton are the exception.

It would be like having a first baseman who hits 18 homers a year. That's fine for a centerfielder, but unacceptable for a second baseman.

Great points made here, Tragg. What is acceptable at certain positions is not acceptable at others. Somebody else made a good point about what Durham is likely to cost us when he becomes a free agent because the Sox have nobody else to bat leadoff. That's one good reason the Erstad trade made sense--it was leverage against Durham and his agent--not to mention his free-swinging, power-hitting wannabe ways.

:ray
"I'm the Toy Cannon!"

:ohno
"No, you're not!"

Jerry_Manuel
12-17-2001, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I would bet the signing of Brian Simmons meant Singleton is out.

Thank you Kermit, I said that the day we got him back.

AsInWreck
12-17-2001, 03:45 PM
So you guys are saying that a very injury prone player w/ a .268 career obp is a better option than singleton?

Jerry_Manuel
12-17-2001, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
So you guys are saying that a very injury prone player w/ a .268 career obp is a better option than singleton?

Your looking at one year only. Borchard should be the starter in center next year. I'm guessing Rowand will be the starter this year with Simmons as the backup.

Daver
12-17-2001, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by harwar
I won't be satisfied until my man,JULIO RAMIREZ,is the starting everday CF.This is his breakout year.

By breakout year do you mean he will bat .150?

I wish he could hit,he has everything else to be great.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 04:23 PM
Well I was mainly talking 4th Outfielder as the name of the thread might imply. The injuries are a definate concern, but for what a 4th outfielder is expected to bring to the team either Singelton or Simmons works for me....in that role I see little difference and give a slight edge to Simmons, though he always seems like a hard luck case

RichH55
12-17-2001, 04:27 PM
Speaking of the 4th Outfield set and what happened to them...what is the story on Wade Parrish our return on Mckay Christensen?

kermittheefrog
12-18-2001, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by AsInWreck
So you guys are saying that a very injury prone player w/ a .268 career obp is a better option than singleton?

Simmons hasn't gotten much of a chance to prove himself, he needs a shot. Simmons is about the same age Singleton was when he got his shot.

AsInWreck
12-18-2001, 01:21 PM
It's probably a moot point, though, i'm guessing the sox will carry 5 of, at this point lee,ordonez,singleton,rowand, and simmons-unless the sox the planning on carrying 12 pitchers