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twsoxfan5
11-10-2005, 12:17 PM
What does everybody think about Todd Helton if we lost Paulie? He hit 320 with 20 homers last year and I think he would be a pretty good fit and according to an AM 1000 update the sox have talked to Colorado about him. I would rather have Paulie but I wouldn't mind Helton if we lost him. Also on MLB.com the Sox are apparently a top suitor for Mark Grudzilanek (spelled wrong), where would we put him?

TomBradley72
11-10-2005, 12:37 PM
Helton's stats aways from Coors Field are not very impressive: .287-7-27 over 73 games on the road in 2005.

My guess is Grudz would replace Harris as the 2nd utility IF....doesn't seem to help with the more speed/younger angle Ozzie talked about in the papers this morning.

Chez
11-10-2005, 01:01 PM
I like Helton, but he would cost you at least Rowand and McCarthy.

MadetoOrta
11-10-2005, 01:17 PM
I like Helton, but he would cost you at least Rowand and McCarthy.

Don't think it would cost that much. The key in any deal re Helton is who's picking up the lion's share of the remaining contract. Like Delgado and even Griffey Jr,, if someone's willing to take on a big chunk of that contract, it won't cost much at all.

mmmmmbeeer
11-10-2005, 01:41 PM
Helton's stats aways from Coors Field are not very impressive: .287-7-27 over 73 games on the road in 2005.

My guess is Grudz would replace Harris as the 2nd utility IF....doesn't seem to help with the more speed/younger angle Ozzie talked about in the papers this morning.

He had a horrible slump last season, the first extended slump of his outstanding career.

In '04 he had a .991 road OPS, '03 .949 road OPS. Paulie had a .959 home OPS this season with only an .863 road OPS. Helton is an absolutely ELITE hitter who would fit well on any offense. If his price were commensurate to Paulie, only a fool would choose to pay Paulie over Helton.

mdep524
11-10-2005, 03:20 PM
What does everybody think about Todd Helton if we lost Paulie? :drool:

according to an AM 1000 update the sox have talked to Colorado about him. :thumbsup: if this is true. Helton is one of the best pure hitters of the game, in any ballpark. With or without Konerko, there is most certainly a place for him on this team, if the monsterous finances could be worked out. I love how KW is exploring all his options.

nccwsfan
11-10-2005, 03:34 PM
Don't think it would cost that much (Rowand and McCarthy for Todd Helton).

Absolutely it will. Unless the CWS are willing to take on most all of his salary they're not going to give him away. It will AT LEAST take Rowand and McCarthy.

If KW can pull it off though......that would be nice.

D. TODD
11-10-2005, 03:34 PM
He had a horrible slump last season, the first extended slump of his outstanding career.

In '04 he had a .991 road OPS, '03 .949 road OPS. Paulie had a .959 home OPS this season with only an .863 road OPS. Helton is an absolutely ELITE hitter who would fit well on any offense. If his price were commensurate to Paulie, only a fool would choose to pay Paulie over Helton. If the money is anywhere near the same neighborhood, Helton over Konerko is a no-brainer. I highly doubt that Helton will be a White Sox, but if it is possible I'm sure K.W. would do it in a second. Helton or Del Gado = as good as it gets at 1b. Konerko = very good, but not elite.

buehrle4cy05
11-10-2005, 03:52 PM
If it involves trading Bmac, I'm against it.

If it doesn't involve trading Bmac, I'm probably for it.

jshanahanjr
11-10-2005, 03:54 PM
If the money is anywhere near the same neighborhood, Helton over Konerko is a no-brainer. I highly doubt that Helton will be a White Sox, but if it is possible I'm sure K.W. would do it in a second. Helton or Del Gado = as good as it gets at 1b. Konerko = very good, but not elite.

How many ALCS MVP's or World Series Grand Slams do Helton & Del Gado have combined? 0
Paulie got it done when it counted. Now get r done Kenny!

Frater Perdurabo
11-10-2005, 04:16 PM
I have the utmost respect for the role PK played in the World Series run victory. But Helton is a superior player. He likely could replicate his Coors stats at the Cell, perhaps with fewer doubles but more HRs. He's a Gold Glove first baseman and therefore superior to Konerko in the field. He's also left-handed, something the Sox definitely need. Yes, he has an onerous contract, but not much more than what Konerko will get. Plus, the Rockies likely would send over some cash just to move Helton's deal off their books. In a few years Helton could DH to allow Ryan Sweeney to take over at first base.

Trade for Helton, sign Furcal and the Sox lineup suddenly is scary-good and a nightmare for opposing managers (especially if Frank returns healthy).

Pods - Furcal - Helton - Frank - Dye - Iguchi - AJ - Crede - Anderson

caulfield12
11-10-2005, 04:26 PM
What does everybody think about Todd Helton if we lost Paulie? He hit 320 with 20 homers last year and I think he would be a pretty good fit and according to an AM 1000 update the sox have talked to Colorado about him. I would rather have Paulie but I wouldn't mind Helton if we lost him. Also on MLB.com the Sox are apparently a top suitor for Mark Grudzilanek (spelled wrong), where would we put him?

The Rockies are apparently very interested in Marte, who would cost them $2.25 million this season. I am going back and forth everyday about Rowand. If we had a better replacement, go for it. But I would not want to block Anderson and Young for more than one year. 2007 is their maturity due date, mid-season for Anderson probably.

It all depends on what direction they go...as long as they do not trade Young, Gio Gonzalez or McCarthy, I am fine with it.

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2005, 04:29 PM
I have the utmost respect for the role PK played in the World Series run victory. But Helton is a superior player. He likely could replicate his Coors stats at the Cell, perhaps with fewer doubles but more HRs. He's a Gold Glove first baseman and therefore superior to Konerko in the field. He's also left-handed, something the Sox definitely need. Yes, he has an onerous contract, but not much more than what Konerko will get. Plus, the Rockies likely would send over some cash just to move Helton's deal off their books. In a few years Helton could DH to allow Ryan Sweeney to take over at first base.

Trade for Helton, sign Furcal and the Sox lineup suddenly is scary-good and a nightmare for opposing managers (especially if Frank returns healthy).

Pods - Furcal - Helton - Frank - Dye - Iguchi - AJ - Crede - AndersonHave you seen Helton's contract? He's signed through 2011 at $16.6M per with $19.1M in 2011 and a team option for $23M in 2012. They have a team buyout for 2012 at $4.6M. That's $106.7 million dollars. There's no way the Rox eat enough to put him anywhere close to Konerko's contract.

Randar68
11-10-2005, 04:32 PM
Absolutely it will. Unless the CWS are willing to take on most all of his salary they're not going to give him away. It will AT LEAST take Rowand and McCarthy.

If KW can pull it off though......that would be nice.

You mean like the 50+ million they threw in on the Hampton deal?

There is precedence here.

Randar68
11-10-2005, 04:33 PM
How many ALCS MVP's or World Series Grand Slams do Helton & Del Gado have combined? 0


:whoflungpoo

Dumbest... argument... ever...

Randar68
11-10-2005, 04:34 PM
He had a horrible slump last season, the first extended slump of his outstanding career.

In '04 he had a .991 road OPS, '03 .949 road OPS. Paulie had a .959 home OPS this season with only an .863 road OPS. Helton is an absolutely ELITE hitter who would fit well on any offense. If his price were commensurate to Paulie, only a fool would choose to pay Paulie over Helton.

Well said.

jshanahanjr
11-10-2005, 04:57 PM
:whoflungpoo

Dumbest... argument... ever...

Why is it dumb? He got the job done in the clutch for Our Sox. End of story.

ChiWavDave
11-10-2005, 05:01 PM
Have you seen Helton's contract? He's signed through 2011 at $16.6M per with $19.1M in 2011 and a team option for $23M in 2012. They have a team buyout for 2012 at $4.6M. That's $106.7 million dollars. There's no way the Rox eat enough to put him anywhere close to Konerko's contract.

Lets say Paulie ends up at 5 year $13M per. Which I think is about what hes going to end up with. Thats $65M. Do you think that Marte+ 1 Top Level Prospect is fair for Helton + $5M/per year is fair. Thats $35M Back from the Rox. Puts Helton at $11.6 for 5 years, $14.1 for 2011 and covers his buyout for 2012. It also give the Rockies an additional $8M per year ($16.6M minus the $5M minus Marte's $3M+) to spend or pocket. A push financially for the whiteSox, a $50M savings and/or payroll flexibility for the Rockies over the next 6 years. an upgrade at first base defensively and arguably offensively for the WhiteSox. Not saying it makes sense one way or the other, but financially its doable for all parties, I would think

caulfield12
11-10-2005, 05:08 PM
Lets say Paulie ends up at 5 year $13M per. Which I think is about what hes going to end up with. Thats $65M. Do you think that Marte+ 1 Top Level Prospect is fair for Helton + $5M/per year is fair. Thats $35M Back from the Rox. Puts Helton at $11.6 for 5 years, $14.1 for 2011 and covers his buyout for 2012. It also give the Rockies an additional $8M per year ($16.6M minus the $5M minus Marte's $3M+) to spend or pocket. A push financially for the whiteSox, a $50M savings and/or payroll flexibility for the Rockies over the next 6 years. an upgrade at first base defensively and arguably offensively for the WhiteSox. Not saying it makes sense one way or the other, but financially its doable for all parties, I would think

Good analysis....I would love to do this, especially if we could get away with dealing Rowand instead of Young-Anderson. Do not think that would fly, though. It is a matter of what pitchers (assuming there is no possible way we would deal McCarthy now) they are after, and how many.

WSoxFanForever
11-10-2005, 05:15 PM
I am still in denial that Konerko could leave, BUT, if he did, Helton is a good hitter and could help the Sox. Still, I'm hoping it's not an issue. I do think PK will sign with us.

Chicken Dinner
11-10-2005, 05:18 PM
Have you seen Helton's contract? He's signed through 2011 at $16.6M per with $19.1M in 2011 and a team option for $23M in 2012. They have a team buyout for 2012 at $4.6M. That's $106.7 million dollars. There's no way the Rox eat enough to put him anywhere close to Konerko's contract.

Agreed.........there is NO WAY that the Sox would take Helton's contract...NONE!

http://www.mlbcontracts.com/Teams/Rockies/helton_todd.htm

mdep524
11-10-2005, 06:00 PM
Lets say Paulie ends up at 5 year $13M per. Which I think is about what hes going to end up with. Thats $65M. Do you think that Marte+ 1 Top Level Prospect is fair for Helton + $5M/per year is fair. Thats $35M Back from the Rox. Puts Helton at $11.6 for 5 years, $14.1 for 2011 and covers his buyout for 2012. It also give the Rockies an additional $8M per year ($16.6M minus the $5M minus Marte's $3M+) to spend or pocket. A push financially for the whiteSox, a $50M savings and/or payroll flexibility for the Rockies over the next 6 years. an upgrade at first base defensively and arguably offensively for the WhiteSox. Not saying it makes sense one way or the other, but financially its doable for all parties, I would think Yup, great post. This IS doable guys, and a player of Helton's caliber would be worth a couple good prospects. Marte, Tracey and maybe Anderson/Rowand or Fields or Liotta. Everybody wins!

bighurt2719
11-10-2005, 06:08 PM
Agreed.........there is NO WAY that the Sox would take Helton's contract...NONE!

http://www.mlbcontracts.com/Teams/Rockies/helton_todd.htm

yes, agreed.:gulp:

Ol' No. 2
11-10-2005, 06:10 PM
Lets say Paulie ends up at 5 year $13M per. Which I think is about what hes going to end up with. Thats $65M. Do you think that Marte+ 1 Top Level Prospect is fair for Helton + $5M/per year is fair. Thats $35M Back from the Rox. Puts Helton at $11.6 for 5 years, $14.1 for 2011 and covers his buyout for 2012. It also give the Rockies an additional $8M per year ($16.6M minus the $5M minus Marte's $3M+) to spend or pocket. A push financially for the whiteSox, a $50M savings and/or payroll flexibility for the Rockies over the next 6 years. an upgrade at first base defensively and arguably offensively for the WhiteSox. Not saying it makes sense one way or the other, but financially its doable for all parties, I would thinkI can't see the Rox throwing in $35M to get rid of a player like Helton. They coughed up $50M to get rid of Hampton, but that was an entirely different situation. Hampton blew chunks in Colorado. They HAD to get rid of him. But to pay out $35M to get rid of a very productive player? I don't think so. You'd probably have to throw in half the farm system.

Plus, Helton is 3 years older. He'll be 38 when his contract runs out in 2011. And people are concerned over a 5-year contract for Konerko? He'd be only 34 when that contract runs out in 2010.

Mr. White Sox
11-10-2005, 06:37 PM
Why is it dumb? He got the job done in the clutch for Our Sox. End of story.

It's dumb because ALCS and WS MVP's do not qualify a player's value. Ichiro has 0 WS or ALCS MVP's, and Jermaine Dye has one. I'd take Ichiro over Dye in a heartbeat. I would also take Alex Rodriguez (0 WS MVP's, right?) over Joe Crede or Juan Uribe, not including monetary value.

So, no, it's not end of story...that's just not a good way to determine a player's worth.

nccwsfan
11-10-2005, 09:04 PM
You mean like the 50+ million they threw in on the Hampton deal?

There is precedence here.

Agreed, with one important difference- Helton has a lot more value today than Hampton did when they agreed to part ways. We can disagree on this, but I think the Rockies are going to wait for the right offer before parting ways on this one, and to me it's not Rowand and McCarthy....

Tragg
11-10-2005, 09:10 PM
Helton's stats aways from Coors Field are not very impressive: .287-7-27 over 73 games on the road in 2005.
.
and his production has declined each of the last three years; and he's ridiculously overpaid.

santo=dorf
11-10-2005, 09:38 PM
Why is it dumb? He got the job done in the clutch for Our Sox. End of story.

Perhaps the Sox should invest in Craig Counsell??? He has TWO rings with two different teams.

maurice
11-14-2005, 04:05 PM
Blum should be re-signed, start 162 games, and bat cleanup next year. After all, he got the job done in the clutch for our Sox.:rolleyes:

DaleJRFan
11-14-2005, 04:12 PM
How many ALCS MVP's or World Series Grand Slams do Helton & Del Gado have combined? 0
Paulie got it done when it counted. Now get r done Kenny!

100% true... however.. How many WS grand slams would Todd Helton have in a Sox uni? I'd wager Helton could park a few onto the concourse if given the appropriate opportunity.

http://mlb.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_115732.jpg
"504 feet?? No problem."

DaleJRFan
11-14-2005, 04:14 PM
and his production has declined each of the last three years; and he's ridiculously overpaid.

...and his BA was 33 points higher than the highest Sox batter.

MadetoOrta
11-14-2005, 04:33 PM
Absolutely it will. Unless the CWS are willing to take on most all of his salary they're not going to give him away. It will AT LEAST take Rowand and McCarthy.

If KW can pull it off though......that would be nice.

There are about 4 players in MLB the Sox'll trade Brandon McCarthy for and one of them is NOT TODD HELTON. McCarthy's property of the Sox for the next 6 years. HE'S GOING NOWHERE! A cheap, righthanded pitching phenom is not going to Colorado. I wouldn't trade him straight up for Helton and that horse$@& contract of his:angry: .

Flight #24
11-14-2005, 04:48 PM
There are about 4 players in MLB the Sox'll trade Brandon McCarthy for and one of them is NOT TODD HELTON. McCarthy's property of the Sox for the next 6 years. HE'S GOING NOWHERE! A cheap, righthanded pitching phenom is not going to Colorado. I wouldn't trade him straight up for Helton and that horse$@& contract of his:angry: .

Wouldnt the point be to trade McCarthy for Helton without the ridiculous contract? Not saying I'd recommend it, but it's not like Helton at $16-19M for McCarthy.

Tekijawa
11-14-2005, 05:03 PM
I would only Trade McCarthy for Johan Santana, Albert Pujols or Carl Everett.

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2005, 05:08 PM
Wouldnt the point be to trade McCarthy for Helton without the ridiculous contract? Not saying I'd recommend it, but it's not like Helton at $16-19M for McCarthy.But is the difference between Helton and Konerko worth trading away McCarthy? I don't think so. And who's going to hold down the 5th starter spot next year? Not Hernandez. They'd have to sign a FA (more money you have to put in the balance) or trade for one (more players to be put in the balance). Add it all up and it's tough for this to be a net positive. You'd be way better off re-signing Konerko and keeping McCarthy.

Flight #24
11-14-2005, 05:48 PM
But is the difference between Helton and Konerko worth trading away McCarthy? I don't think so. And who's going to hold down the 5th starter spot next year? Not Hernandez. They'd have to sign a FA (more money you have to put in the balance) or trade for one (more players to be put in the balance). Add it all up and it's tough for this to be a net positive. You'd be way better off re-signing Konerko and keeping McCarthy.

Like I said - "not saying I'd recommend it". Merely responding to the various & sundry concerns about trading top talent for "Helton and his ridiculous talent". If you don't want to trade McCarthy for Helton, I'd disagree with you. But his original contract doesn't really factor into it since you'd effectively be marking it down to the current market price.

Like you, I'd rather have Konerko+McCarthy. I even think I'd rather have Konerko+McCarthy+Thomas(part-time) than Konerko+Helton.

And I'd damn sure rather have Konerko+McCarthy+Giles+Thomas(part time) than Konerko+Helton.

Ol' No. 2
11-14-2005, 06:05 PM
Like I said - "not saying I'd recommend it". Merely responding to the various & sundry concerns about trading top talent for "Helton and his ridiculous talent". If you don't want to trade McCarthy for Helton, I'd disagree with you. But his original contract doesn't really factor into it since you'd effectively be marking it down to the current market price.

Like you, I'd rather have Konerko+McCarthy. I even think I'd rather have Konerko+McCarthy+Thomas(part-time) than Konerko+Helton.

And I'd damn sure rather have Konerko+McCarthy+Giles+Thomas(part time) than Konerko+Helton.I've been at the front of the Giles parade for a while now, so you don't have to convince me. He'd be a perfect fit. But unfortunately, I expect it's more likely he's going to wind up in St. Louis to replace Larry Walker.:(:

pissonthecubs
11-14-2005, 06:58 PM
What does everybody think about Todd Helton if we lost Paulie? He hit 320 with 20 homers last year

.320 with 20 HR is called hitting in Coors Field and getting older and worst every year. i'm not interested in it one bit.

MarySwiss
11-14-2005, 07:16 PM
.320 with 20 HR is called hitting in Coors Field and getting older and worst every year. i'm not interested in it one bit.
Wholeheartedly agree!

veeter
11-14-2005, 08:14 PM
When is opening day?

Domeshot17
11-15-2005, 12:19 PM
I think it comes down to 3 guys: Overbay, Helton, Delgado
Here is how they rank in each category as how their role will be for the sox IMO 1-5 value some categories tie, and some have higher meaning than others since they will hit 3 or 4 ( * categories double in worth)

Contract (low-high) Overbay(5), Delgado(3), Helton(0)
Paulie(2), Carl(3)
Defense: Helton(5) by leaps and bounds, Overbay(3), Delgado(2)
PK (3) Carl(1)
*Clubhouse: Helton(10), Overbay(6), Delgado(6)
PK*(10) Carl(6)
*Average: Helton(9), Overbay(7), Delgado(7) very close all around
PK(6) Carl(4)
*Power: Delgado(10), Helton(7), Overbay(4)
PK(10) Carl (7)
GAP: Helton(5) Overbay(5) Delgado (2)
PK (4) Carl (2)
*Ability as a 4 hitter: Delgado(10) Helton(9) Overbay(5)
PK(10) Carl (5)
Ability to be a leader: Helton (5) Delgado(3) Overbay(2)
PK (5) Carl (3)
Speed: Overbay(3) Delgado(2) Helton(2)
PK (1) Carl (1)
Age: Overbay (5) Delgado (3) Helton (1)
Pk (3) Carl (2)
totals: Overbay 45 of a possible 70, Delgado 48 of a possible 70, Helton 52 off 70
PK 53 of 70, Carl 33 of 70
I gave PK and Carls ranks because that is who they are replacing potentially

Using that, Helton would be the first choice, and Delgado a close second, and overbay a decent fall back. Helton gives you almost exactly what Paulie did when it all is added up, Delgado very close, and Overbay not bad if someone tops Carl, who is beaten by everyone.

D. TODD
11-15-2005, 12:30 PM
I think it comes down to 3 guys: Overbay, Helton, Delgado
Here is how they rank in each category as how their role will be for the sox IMO 1-5 value some categories tie, and some have higher meaning than others since they will hit 3 or 4 ( * categories double in worth)

Contract (low-high) Overbay(5), Delgado(3), Helton(0)
Paulie(2), Carl(3)
Defense: Helton(5) by leaps and bounds, Overbay(3), Delgado(2)
PK (3) Carl(1)
*Clubhouse: Helton(10), Overbay(6), Delgado(6)
PK*(10) Carl(6)
*Average: Helton(9), Overbay(7), Delgado(7) very close all around
PK(6) Carl(4)
*Power: Delgado(10), Helton(7), Overbay(4)
PK(10) Carl (7)
GAP: Helton(5) Overbay(5) Delgado (2)
PK (4) Carl (2)
*Ability as a 4 hitter: Delgado(10) Helton(9) Overbay(5)
PK(10) Carl (5)
Ability to be a leader: Helton (5) Delgado(3) Overbay(2)
PK (5) Carl (3)
Speed: Overbay(3) Delgado(2) Helton(2)
PK (1) Carl (1)
Age: Overbay (5) Delgado (3) Helton (1)
Pk (3) Carl (2)
totals: Overbay 45 of a possible 70, Delgado 48 of a possible 70, Helton 52 off 70
PK 53 of 70, Carl 33 of 70
I gave PK and Carls ranks because that is who they are replacing potentially

Using that, Helton would be the first choice, and Delgado a close second, and overbay a decent fall back. Helton gives you almost exactly what Paulie did when it all is added up, Delgado very close, and Overbay not bad if someone tops Carl, who is beaten by everyone. I like Paulie, but he is not better then Del Gado or Helton. It does not matter what formula you use. Helton may be too expensive though, so that would be a fair reason why Paulie is a better option.

caulfield12
11-15-2005, 01:16 PM
There are about 4 players in MLB the Sox'll trade Brandon McCarthy for and one of them is NOT TODD HELTON. McCarthy's property of the Sox for the next 6 years. HE'S GOING NOWHERE! A cheap, righthanded pitching phenom is not going to Colorado. I wouldn't trade him straight up for Helton and that horse$@& contract of his:angry: .


I donīt think Helton is valuable to the Colorado franchise like Ichiro in Seattle, but it would be hard for them to trade him because of the PR and attendance fall-out.

McCarthy is especially valuable because he could be a number 2-3 caliber starter and we have his rights for six years. That is the most valuable commodity for any team...a star (or potential star) you donīt have to pay $8-10 million plus. This gives KW SOME flexibility with future payrolls and salary allocations. And he is the main reason we might lose Garland and-or Contreras after 2006.

The presence of McCarthy is what makes it easier to imagine adding a Brian Giles type player for one or two years, but not Delgado or Helton for 3-5 more years. Maybe Heltonīs is even longer...but itīs outrageous, with lots of deferred money. Something like $106 or $116 million?

Domeshot17
11-15-2005, 02:42 PM
I like Paulie, but he is not better then Del Gado or Helton. It does not matter what formula you use. Helton may be too expensive though, so that would be a fair reason why Paulie is a better option.



I guess I should have explained a little better, I did that with the train of thought, how will these guys fit in for the white sox. Delgado lost some points because (a) he is lazy in the field and (b) has the superstar mentality, the me first attitude I won't DH I won't play OF etc.

Helton fell behind paulie for the contract. If that wasnt figured in, helton scores the highest. but with him making like 14-15 a year, and paulie made 8 last year, the contract and what you get for it went into paulies favor in terms of the white sox.

Overbay is just Mark Grace with 9 more homers a year