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View Full Version : What I would do if I was the Sox


MattSharp
12-16-2001, 01:47 AM
-I would go after Damon. Go all out and hope he plays like he did in 2000.

-Then I would trade Ray Durham for a mediorce starter. Someone who young who could be a No 3 or 4 guy. With Durham gone it frees up room for Damon.

-I would seriously try to move Thomas. Despite him once being my fav player, he isn't helping the team anymore. You could trade him or package him with Durham and get a decent starter maybe.

-I would use the money that opens up to tie up Ordonez and Foullke for as long as I could.

-I would resign Bill Simas

-Trade Singleton for whatever

Then my lineup would look like this:

CF Damon
2B Jose Valentin
DH Carlos Lee
LF Magglio Ordonez
1B Paul Konerko
RF Joe Borchard
3B Joe Crede
C Mark Johnson
SS Royce Clayton

Bench
C Josh Paul
IF Tony Graffanino
IF/OF Jeff Liefer
OF Aaron Rowand
OF Brian Simmons

Rotation
1. Mark Buehrle
2. Whoever the get for Thomas
3. Todd Ritchie
4. Jon Garland
5. Jim Parque/Rocky Biddle/Dan Wright/Jon Rauch

Bullpen
Keith Foulke
Bill Simas
Bob Howry
Gary Glover
Lorenzo Barcelo
Parque/Biddle/Ginter


I think the Sox have a lot of depth. If they can unload Thomas and Durham for a quality starter, or a quality 2B/SS I think they could kick some major ass next year.

FarWestChicago
12-16-2001, 01:48 AM
Welcome to WSI, Matt! :gulp:

CLR01
12-16-2001, 01:51 AM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Welcome to WSI, Matt! :gulp:


Well you didnt make a very good first impression with me on that singleton comment but welcome to WSI. :)


HAs Jose ever played 2nd? And i would still rather have frank DHing than Carlos.

Daver
12-16-2001, 01:52 AM
Welcome aboard,but how do you move Thomas when he has every reason to say no?

MattSharp
12-16-2001, 01:56 AM
Whoa, lots to reply too.

First off, Singleton is crap when compared to Borchard and Rowand. He is a great fielder but has just now come around as a hitter and I don't see a spot on the roster for him. Maybe because I am partial to Brian Simmons.

As for Jose at 2B, the only major adjustment from SS to 2B is turning the DP. Otherwise its an easier position to play with less and easier throws (do not See Chuck Knoblauch). I think he could handle it. And bottom line.....Ray Durham is the worst lead off hitter in baseball.

As for Thomas. The diminished skills clause is one way. The second is to just bench him. He has become one of the biggest whiners in Chicago, and I have started to like him less and less. It's true taht he could play like he did in 2000, but with some much young talent on this team, I say get what you can for him now.

Daver
12-16-2001, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp
Whoa, lots to reply too.

First off, Singleton is crap when compared to Borchard and Rowand. He is a great fielder but has just now come around as a hitter and I don't see a spot on the roster for him. Maybe because I am partial to Brian Simmons.

As for Jose at 2B, the only major adjustment from SS to 2B is turning the DP. Otherwise its an easier position to play with less and easier throws (do not See Chuck Knoblauch). I think he could handle it. And bottom line.....Ray Durham is the worst lead off hitter in baseball.

As for Thomas. The diminished skills clause is one way. The second is to just bench him. He has become one of the biggest whiners in Chicago, and I have started to like him less and less. It's true taht he could play like he did in 2000, but with some much young talent on this team, I say get what you can for him now.

The diminished skills clause is gone if you bench him,that is a clause also,and he is still one of the best hitters the game has ever seen,unless the numbers are lying to me.

WinningUgly!
12-16-2001, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by MattSharp
-I would go after Damon. Go all out and hope he plays like he did in 2000.

-Then I would trade Ray Durham for a mediorce starter. Someone who young who could be a No 3 or 4 guy. With Durham gone it frees up room for Damon.

-I would seriously try to move Thomas. Despite him once being my fav player, he isn't helping the team anymore. You could trade him or package him with Durham and get a decent starter maybe.

-I would use the money that opens up to tie up Ordonez and Foullke for as long as I could.

-I would resign Bill Simas

-Trade Singleton for whatever

Then my lineup would look like this:

CF Damon
2B Jose Valentin
DH Carlos Lee
LF Magglio Ordonez
1B Paul Konerko
RF Joe Borchard
3B Joe Crede
C Mark Johnson
SS Royce Clayton

Bench
C Josh Paul
IF Tony Graffanino
IF/OF Jeff Liefer
OF Aaron Rowand
OF Brian Simmons

Rotation
1. Mark Buehrle
2. Whoever the get for Thomas
3. Todd Ritchie
4. Jon Garland
5. Jim Parque/Rocky Biddle/Dan Wright/Jon Rauch

Bullpen
Keith Foulke
Bill Simas
Bob Howry
Gary Glover
Lorenzo Barcelo
Parque/Biddle/Ginter


I think the Sox have a lot of depth. If they can unload Thomas and Durham for a quality starter, or a quality 2B/SS I think they could kick some major ass next year.

I agree Damon would be nice, but don't hold your breath on that. I wouldn't trade Thomas, even if we could, we wouldn't get what he's truly worth coming off of his injury. I might consider a Durham deal, but not for a 'mediorce starter'...we have plenty of those already!

Bmr31
12-16-2001, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by daver
Welcome aboard,but how do you move Thomas when he has every reason to say no?

i dunno but i agree with almost everything the original poster said. I would love to see us deal Thomas, durham and singelton....

kermittheefrog
12-16-2001, 04:43 AM
A few comments:

Durham: Worst leadoff hitter in baseball? Ha. I was pretty upset with Durham until I took a look around last year. There wasn't much else. Think about the best leadoff men from last year. Damon, Durham, Darin Erstad, Luis Castillo and Eric Young (the guys Stats Inc. nominated for their best leadoff man award). Durham was the only one of them that didn't suffer a horrible dropoff. Actually think, how many leadoff men were clearly better than Durham last year? I'd say Ichiro, Shannon Stewart and Craig Biggio. Then you get into maybes like Fernando Vina and Rickey Henderson and Cristian Guzman. Really Durham was a good leadoff man in comparison to the rest of the guys trying to do that job.

Thomas: I dunno if he's still an outstanding hitter or not but realistically he's the only guy on our team I'd want to build an offense around. Maggs is great but he's no Frank Thomas. Joe Borchard could be that kind of guy but that's a big void for anybody to fill let alone a rookie. Even if Frank isn't the Big Hurt anymore he's still the only guy on our team who is a good bet for a .400+ OBP. No offense, I love Maggs but do you think a team where he's the best hitter is a WS contender? Not unless almost every other position has an above average player and the Sox have some clear weaknesses.

Damon: Damn I wish we could land him but Kenny the Klown says no free agents and Johnny is a Scot Boras client. We all know Boras hates the Sox. With good reason too, Boras likes to rip off GMs and although Kenny is a sucker when it comes to trading JR has a chastity belt on his GMs when it comes to big free agent risks. He seems to take it off at the wrong times too, see Kirk McCaskill and Laime Navarro.

Finally, on the comment in the orignal post about getting a young number 3 starter type:

WHAT THE HELL? Don't we already have a bunch of #3 starters? Parque, Garland, Glover, Ritchie. If we get a starter it better damn well be a number one to team up with Buehrle who'd be a great #2.

oldcomiskey
12-16-2001, 07:17 AM
first of all any talk tof trading Thomas and Durham and NOT getting rid of Clayton is gonna hear from me.. One----I get tired of telling you folks this---Borchard is not ready---two----you dont trade one of the profilic sluggers in our history for anything--and three---that roster is 3rd place at best

LongDistanceFan
12-16-2001, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
first of all any talk tof trading Thomas and Durham and NOT getting rid of Clayton is gonna hear from me.. One----I get tired of telling you folks this---Borchard is not ready---two----you dont trade one of the profilic sluggers in our history for anything--and three---that roster is 3rd place at best regardless of big frank personality and the possibility that he may not come back at full strength. we have to give him a chance to prove it ray, trade him for some key prospects......... clayton, trade him for whatever we can get.......... some bats, balls, a popcorn machine, anything.

doublem23
12-16-2001, 11:11 AM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan
regardless of big frank personality and the possibility that he may not come back at full strength. we have to give him a chance to prove it ray, trade him for some key prospects......... clayton, trade him for whatever we can get.......... some bats, balls, a popcorn machine, anything.

True... Remember how mad people got when the Sox traded Baldwin (even before they realized KW proved his stupidity)? People will go ape**** on the Sox if they just dump Thomas before even giving him a shot.

I really don't have a stance on Ray. If we trade him, we don't have anyone to fill the hole left at both 2nd and, more importantly, the lead-off spot. However, the holes are small, but they won't be filled.

Clayton.... Whatever.... I really just wish Reisny would just buy out his contract and get rid of that loser.

MattSharp
12-16-2001, 11:55 AM
I like the defending of Durham, but lets look at it like this:

Durham batted .267 last year. That's the lowest average since his rookie year. His OBP was .337, the lowest since '97. He has struck out over 100 times the last four seasons, and has never walked more than 75 times in a season. Based on that, I don't see a good leadoff hitter. I mean those are the first things I would look for.

Now on the upside he does have speed. He doesnt' have a chance to show it due to his lack of ablilty to get on base. He does have some power. 20 HRs is certainly nothing to slouch at, but I would rather see him hi 5 HRs and only have 60 Ks, then the other way around. His 42 2Bs was a big surprise, I really liked that.

But it all comes down to the fact, that there may not be a lot out there, so I guess it's all relative. But when not comparing to the current state of leadoff hittter....

he sucks!

Tragg
12-16-2001, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
I like the defending of Durham, but lets look at it like this:

Durham batted .267 last year. That's the lowest average since his rookie year. His OBP was .337, the lowest since '97. He has struck out over 100 times the last four seasons, and has never walked more than 75 times in a season. Based on that, I don't see a good leadoff hitter. I mean those are the first things I would look for.



Durham had a bad year, but has a career OBP of .350. That is about the same as Erstad, for whom we were willing to give away the farm. We're talking about a team with 3 woeful obps as starters - alomar, clayton and singleton. Durham walks 2-3 times as often as any of those guys.
He isn't ideal for leadoff but a)he's the best we've got; and b) easily in the upper half of the league for offensive second baseben.

FarWestChicago
12-16-2001, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
b) easily in the upper half of the league for offensive second basemen. :ray

And I've got almost as much range as the fire hydrant in front of my house!

Tragg
12-16-2001, 12:14 PM
He'd probably be a good outfielder. His best plays are on pop ups.
What happened to the talk about trying him in the outfield.
It might not be a bad time to trade him - he and konerko will present contract challenges soon.
But who do we have to play second base?
Like I've said, i wish kenny williams would try to get us some top minor league infielders.

FarWestChicago
12-16-2001, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Tragg

But who do we have to play second base?
Like I've said, i wish kenny williams would try to get us some top minor league infielders. We could put Manos at second since The Choice will be getting post game ice cream with Uncle Jerry again this year. I would also like to see Kenny get us some infield prospects.

Jerry_Manuel
12-16-2001, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Tragg
What happened to the talk about trying him in the outfield.
It might not be a bad time to trade him - he and konerko will present contract challenges soon.
But who do we have to play second base?
Like I've said, i wish kenny williams would try to get us some top minor league infielders.

Durham didn't want to play the outfield, he feels he can make more money playing 2nd. Konerko needs to put up bigger numbers before he becomes a contract problem. Tim Hummel is the man who will replace Durham when his contract ends after this season.

AsInWreck
12-17-2001, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
I like the defending of Durham, but lets look at it like this:

Durham batted .267 last year. That's the lowest average since his rookie year. His OBP was .337, the lowest since '97. He has struck out over 100 times the last four seasons, and has never walked more than 75 times in a season. Based on that, I don't see a good leadoff hitter. I mean those are the first things I would look for.
But when not comparing to the current state of leadoff hittter....
he sucks!

I don't see how you can quote stats like this and propose to have valentin take over the position/i like manos, but he strikes out more and walks less, and hits for a lower ave., but you still probably still like him in the 2 hole/makes no sense.

RichH55
12-17-2001, 05:52 PM
75 walks isn't a bad year is it? Durham definately had a down year last year, but he did put up his best power numbers and his K's didn't really go up. Still I look for him to really rebound since he has some humility now and since its a contract year....I'm not a big believer in the effect of strike-outs myself...it would seem to me that a strike-out for a leader-off hitter would be better than on pop-up on the first pitch...at least you see 3 pitches on the K...maybe someone will give me the Strikeout spiel and its effect on hitting? I mean if your OBP is good and slugger numbers are good as well, why is the K such a detriment? I don't really think I'm arguing a point here, just looking for views



:hitless
Hey dont look at me, I didn't K much ever

:jerry
You didnt do much of anything else ever

:KW
Oh come on play him

:reinsy
Since when did we start making decesions based on this thing you call "baseball"?

Huisj
12-17-2001, 09:45 PM
As much as Durham frustrates the heck out of sox fans with his mantal lapses and whatnot, there's not much to be had out there that is better at second base. Also, are you really serious about moving Ordonez, an all star right fielder, into left to make way for a rookie who realistically won't even make the team this year?? I mean, Borchard hit like .280 with a bazillion strikeouts at AA, he needs more time. If you bring him up right away next year, i guarantee, he hits .230 with 12 bazillion strikeouts and not a whole lot of power.

As for trading Thomas, it ain't going to happen. He won't agree to it, and that diminished skill cause or whatever ain't going to happen. The Sox are going to do whatever they can to keep Frank happy this year so that there is no repeat of the fiasco they went through last spring with him walking out and being pissed and playing like crap (before he got hurt). Plus, I'm not sure they could even exercise such as clause considering he played only a month last year before getting hurt. Injury isn't the same as diminished skill, especially when his prior season was an MVP caliber year. anyways, just my thoughts

Jerry_Manuel
12-17-2001, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Huisj
Also, are you really serious about moving Ordonez, an all star right fielder, into left to make way for a rookie who realistically won't even make the team this year?? I mean, Borchard hit like .280 with a bazillion strikeouts at AA, he needs more time. If you bring him up right away next year, i guarantee, he hits .230 with 12 bazillion strikeouts and not a whole lot of power.


Ordonez is an all-star because of his bat not his glove. He'll handle left just fine. Borchard has the better arm so he would be a better suit for right. Joe is not going to be with the Sox till September 2002. He'll be ready in 2003 to play, he should be playing atleast. We don't need another Joe Crede situation on our hands where the guy plays in the minors for 5 years before they think he's ready.

RichH55
12-18-2001, 10:02 AM
Jerry, you mean Mags doesnt get to pull a Manny in Boston and play RF no matter what? And Mags can handle left, I saw him play CF this year, so at least he is thinking about the team first. And on Frank wasn't one of the reasons he was playing so poorly because he was hurt? He tried to play through it just like when he had the bad ankle problems and still couldn't get any respect? maybe I'm a bit biased because Frank is one of my favorites, but he takes alot of crap and always has. I had friends who were Cubs fans who used to tell me that Grace was better than Frank and they would do it with a straight face

Jerry_Manuel
12-18-2001, 03:09 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
Jerry, you mean Mags doesnt get to pull a Manny in Boston and play RF no matter what? And Mags can handle left, I saw him play CF this year, so at least he is thinking about the team first.

Well everyone here is just throwing out what they would do. I think it would be a better fit for the Sox if Joe played right. However your most likely going to see Joe in center with Magglio in right and Carlos or Rowand in left in 2003.

AsInWreck
12-18-2001, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by RichH55
....I'm not a big believer in the effect of strike-outs myself...it would seem to me that a strike-out for a leader-off hitter would be better than on pop-up on the first pitch...at least you see 3 pitches on the K...maybe someone will give me the Strikeout spiel and its effect on hitting?


When you make contact as opposed to striking out you force your opponent to make the play, which gives your opponent the opportunity to make mistakes which forces the opposing pitcher to get extra outs and could open up opportunities for the hitters behind you. Also it is difficult to move a runner when you strike out. So striking out pretty much hampers a teams ability to do the little things which separate a pretty good team like the sox and very good teams like seattle, yakees, and d'backs.
That and some wicked pitching.

RichH55
12-18-2001, 04:38 PM
Fair enough on the K's...though the original K anger was based on Ray Durham and it making him a poorer lead-off hitter....Moving guys over is less of a concern there, LOL especially considering when he comes up not leading off he'll be following Mark Johnson and Royce Clayton(tough to move guys over who aren't on base)....and another thing about K's is they don't really keep suffienct stats so you know what type of K's there are...of course you would think, and want, guys who are smart enough to know when they have to move guys over and when they have a little more leeway. Plus if you K, you can't hit into a double play...just playing a little devils advocate:) I wonder if anyone keeps stats on how many errors are made while each player is batting...I'm betting that the number isn't that high...

Basically there are plenty of measures to tell if a hitter is doing well overall, and how they do situationally, I don't think K's is anywhere close to be as telling a factor as say OBP or Slugging(depending more of the type of hitter)...but if you get out you get out...and looking over some of those teams you named there are some guys who K a decent amount they just make up for it in numerous other ways...Look at a guy like Rey Sanchez(not on one of the teams listed), but he hits .300 and doesnt K that often and is nothing like what I would consider a productive hitter...Oh well...just some things to consider

LongDistanceFan
12-18-2001, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by MattSharp
-I would go after Damon. Go all out and hope he plays like he did in 2000.

-Then I would trade Ray Durham for a mediorce starter. Someone who young who could be a No 3 or 4 guy. With Durham gone it frees up room for Damon.

-I would seriously try to move Thomas. Despite him once being my fav player, he isn't helping the team anymore. You could trade him or package him with Durham and get a decent starter maybe.

-I would use the money that opens up to tie up Ordonez and Foullke for as long as I could.

-I would resign Bill Simas

-Trade Singleton for whatever

Then my lineup would look like this:

CF Damon
2B Jose Valentin
DH Carlos Lee
LF Magglio Ordonez
1B Paul Konerko
RF Joe Borchard
3B Joe Crede
C Mark Johnson
SS Royce Clayton

Bench
C Josh Paul
IF Tony Graffanino
IF/OF Jeff Liefer
OF Aaron Rowand
OF Brian Simmons

Rotation
1. Mark Buehrle
2. Whoever the get for Thomas
3. Todd Ritchie
4. Jon Garland
5. Jim Parque/Rocky Biddle/Dan Wright/Jon Rauch

Bullpen
Keith Foulke
Bill Simas
Bob Howry
Gary Glover
Lorenzo Barcelo
Parque/Biddle/Ginter


I think the Sox have a lot of depth. If they can unload Thomas and Durham for a quality starter, or a quality 2B/SS I think they could kick some major ass next year. what i always wanted to play.......... what if....... be advise this is not a good game to play, for you would really get some harsh comments..... but oh well......... here is my stuff.

get rid of nardi, clayton.
trade howry, and rayray.

start graffanino and bring up tim hummel. give crede 3b and ss to jose.
bring up the pitching coach for the triple a or double a to be our pitching coach with help from wells.
i would've sign jason s, but since this is not going to happen, find something else. b/c of the value of durham, maybe we can get something in return.
cat we are stuck with what we have. wish tony eusebio or todd pratt
1b paulie
dh thomas (but i would've gone after giambi)
2b tony wish mark mclemore only for 2 yrs.
ss jose
3b crede
of mags, chris, lee

i may have a trade in the works a trade that will involve chris for sure and paulie of jason came into the fold.

pit since the kipper trade, i will stay there and bring back wells as a player/asst coach.

1- mark buerle
2- ritchie
3- wells
4- garland
5- parque