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BNLSox
11-09-2005, 01:42 PM
What if.... We were able to keep Pauly, able to sign Matsui, and able to trade for Manny (Rowand and some minor league studs)?


Our lineup would be:

1. Pods CF
2. Iguchi 2B
3. Matsui LF
4. Ramirez DH
5. Konerko 1B
6. Dye RF
7. AJ C
8. Crede 3B
9. Uribe C


That would be something.....

Although in all seriousness trading for Ramirez probably wouldn't be worth all of the minor league losses and cost...Not to mention one has no clue on its effect on chemisty...But it would make defending the title a whole hell of a lot easier.

samram
11-09-2005, 01:48 PM
Well, if JR is willing to bump that payroll to about $110 million and basically clear the farm system and help the Red Sox add pitching, it's a possibility.

buehrle4cy05
11-09-2005, 01:51 PM
What if.... We were able to keep Pauly, able to sign Matsui, and able to trade for Manny (Rowand and some minor league studs)?


Our lineup would be:

1. Pods CF
2. Iguchi 2B
3. Matsui LF
4. Ramirez DH
5. Konerko 1B
6. Dye RF
7. AJ C
8. Crede 3B
9. Uribe SS


That would be something.....

Although in all seriousness trading for Ramirez probably wouldn't be worth all of the minor league losses and cost...Not to mention one has no clue on its effect on chemisty...But it would make defending the title a whole hell of a lot easier.

Why don't people like Aaron Rowand anymore?
:dunno:

nccwsfan
11-09-2005, 01:55 PM
It would certainly help out on offensive production, but there's a few glitches in the thinking:

1) The CWS will only be able to sign one free agent of Konerko/Matsui caliber, so if they re-sign Konerko they're not getting Matsui.

2) Matsui would be a nice offensive addition but would only fit here as a DH. With Pods/Rowand/Dye/Anderson you'll have a glut of OF's, and one of them would need to be traded to have that happen. Matsui (as mentioned in another post) would significantly hamper the team defense.

3) If Konerko leaves they'll need to properly fill the void at 1B and I'd rather they work that up instead of another OF.

4) Manny Ramirez is an offensive monster. Rowand and minor league prospects aren't going to even come close to what it will take to get him away from the BoSox, even if they eat a large portion of the contract.

5) Saying Manny is a defensive liability is like saying the sun will come out tomorrow.

6) Manny is not a guy that I would bring in to keep clubhouse chemistry intact. That would be a disaster, IMO.

7) And most important to me- in the unlikely scenario that all three were to be here next year, that would greatly hamper our chances to re-sign the pitchers that we have. Pitching is our staple and pitching wins championships- I want KW to get the rotation signed to long term deals and build around them, not the other way around.

Tekijawa
11-09-2005, 01:55 PM
Why don't people like Aaron Rowand anymore?
:dunno:

He's not a gold glover! Probably because he runs bad routes!

nccwsfan
11-09-2005, 01:58 PM
Why don't people like Aaron Rowand anymore?
:dunno:

People love Rowand (I love Rowand), but of the 4 OF's we're talking about (Pods/Rowand/Dye/Anderson) Rowand is probably the most tradeable right now. He's an asset to the team, but in the numbers game if the team were to improve they'll have to trade from its strength, which is OF.

That's the only reason I think he is tradeable. Nothing personal, just business....

Banix12
11-09-2005, 02:33 PM
What I don't get about the Rowand trade scenarios that everybody is throwing out around here is that everybody is seriously overrating his value.

Rowand is the most expendable OF on the team, that doesn't mean his value is worth that much on the open market.

Pods, Dye, Anderson, and even some of the minor league OF all have a higher trade value than Rowand. Rowand probably had a higher trade value before 2005.

He's not chopped liver, he does have some value but I think the most the white sox can seriously expect to get in return for him are a couple of second tier prospects. In this Manny for Rowand and Prospects scenario, you can be assured the prospects are the real prize.

I would suspect the Red Sox would rather have Anderson anyway in any trade involving Manny.

kittle42
11-09-2005, 02:38 PM
I don't want Manny Ramirez anywhere near a Sox uniform. See Owens, Terrell.

ShoelessJoeS
11-09-2005, 02:43 PM
I don't want Manny Ramirez anywhere near a Sox uniform. See Owens, Terrell.
Bingo.

Deuce
11-09-2005, 02:58 PM
I don't want Manny Ramirez anywhere near a Sox uniform. See Owens, Terrell.Amen.

Tekijawa
11-09-2005, 03:18 PM
I don't want Manny Ramirez anywhere near a Sox uniform. See Owens, Terrell.

I think you should look up Rosenhaus, Drew also, he has just as much to do with Owens situation now as ownes does... I think all this could have been avoided if Terrell hadn't gone back for contract negotiations under the advice of Rosenhaus...

fquaye149
11-09-2005, 03:36 PM
I don't want Manny Ramirez anywhere near a Sox uniform. See Owens, Terrell.

You mean Manny Ramirez WORLD SERIES MVP?

This bull**** boggles my mind.

Yeah No way do I want the .300+/40+/150+ guy. No way in the world.

MadetoOrta
11-09-2005, 03:39 PM
Why don't people like Aaron Rowand anymore?
:dunno:

With Anderson, Young and Owens, A-Ro is a perfect piece to some trade. His contract isn't huge but replacing it with Anderson's league minimum can help clear budget space for a Matsui or Paulie's $. This is precisely why I doubt you'll see Brandon McCarthy go anywhere. He potentially can win 15 games next year, pitch 200+ innings and clear a little over THE LEAGUE MINIMUM! The Sox could conceivably add more than just Paulie and stay around $80-85 million in payroll. I do agree 100% with the sentiment that the $ should be preserved to keep the starting pitching intact. We don't need to revert back to the softball teams of 2003 and 2004.

Flight #24
11-09-2005, 03:42 PM
I don't want Manny Ramirez anywhere near a Sox uniform. See Owens, Terrell.

Please identify when exactly Manny has been identified as being bad in the clubhouse, talking about teammates/the org, or creating other problems. The worst that's said about him are 1)He doesn't always hustle and 2)Every so often, he says he wants to be traded, but he usually comes around and recants that a week or so later.

Neither is a cancerous situation. If you have issues with Manny because of his contract or his subpar D, that's fine. But let's not go overboard and start calling him a cancer that's impossible to win with. If you have the $$$ to get him without making large cuts elsewhere, you'd be a fool not to at least try.

Palehose13
11-09-2005, 03:42 PM
Great offensive team, but that OF defense... :dunno:

The Dude
11-09-2005, 04:15 PM
Why don't people like Aaron Rowand anymore?
:dunno:

I still like Aaron..I just hate the increased GIDP number this past season and his lack of power compared to 2004. His defense is stellar and he keeps his average up. Other that the GIDP/power numbers, hes a helluva ballplayer.:D:

BNLSox
11-09-2005, 04:25 PM
Yeah I would be concerned about the loss of stelar defense in left by moving pods into center. But Matsui can get the job done out there can't he? I'm not thinking we should put manny in the field except in interleague play.

samram
11-09-2005, 04:41 PM
Yeah I would be concerned about the loss of stelar defense in left by moving pods into center. But Matsui can get the job done out there can't he? I'm not thinking we should put manny in the field except in interleague play.

Matsui is not very good in left field, let alone center field.

Professor
11-09-2005, 05:12 PM
Sounds like you're advocating giving up on the strategy that won a World Series Championship. I understand the temptation of the power-lineup; but how soon we forget, no? Moses goes up the mountain, takes too long, so people fashion a golden calf--or in this case, an imaginary lineup of sluggers.... I like the strong pitching, strong defense, speed and teamwork strategy myself. I few big bats in the middle is great to be sure. But Konerko, Manny, Matsui? To achieve that would cost the team elsewhere I would think.

fquaye149
11-09-2005, 06:23 PM
Sounds like you're advocating giving up on the strategy that won a World Series Championship. I understand the temptation of the power-lineup; but how soon we forget, no? Moses goes up the mountain, takes too long, so people fashion a golden calf--or in this case, an imaginary lineup of sluggers.... I like the strong pitching, strong defense, speed and teamwork strategy myself. I few big bats in the middle is great to be sure. But Konerko, Manny, Matsui? To achieve that would cost the team elsewhere I would think.

What? You mean having the same great pitching AND sensational hitting would make us worse? Run that by me one more time?

Or wait - are you asserting that it was Rowand and Carl's situational hitting and outfield defense that singlehandedly won us the WS?

This thread is bringing out some real crazies.

Professor
11-09-2005, 08:36 PM
What? You mean having the same great pitching AND sensational hitting would make us worse? Run that by me one more time?

Or wait - are you asserting that it was Rowand and Carl's situational hitting and outfield defense that singlehandedly won us the WS?

This thread is bringing out some real crazies.

And the feasibility of this coming to fruition is...? If trying to be realistic is crazy, guilty as charged (I appreciate the ad hominem attack nevertheless). To acquire those hitters, we would more than likely be asked for some of our pitching and/or have one MAJOR (you realize the suggestion that began this thread was Konerko/Matsui/Manny?) hike in payroll. Thus, my suggestion is, that since we can't have it all, I am confident in the strategy that won the WS this year as opposed to the power lineups of the past.

fquaye149
11-09-2005, 08:51 PM
And the feasibility of this coming to fruition is...? If trying to be realistic is crazy, guilty as charged (I appreciate the ad hominem attack nevertheless). To acquire those hitters, we would more than likely be asked for some of our pitching and/or have one MAJOR (you realize the suggestion that began this thread was Konerko/Matsui/Manny?) hike in payroll. Thus, my suggestion is, that since we can't have it all, I am confident in the strategy that won the WS this year as opposed to the power lineups of the past.

You didn't attack the feasability of this suggestions. The acquisitions would NOT likely require pitching. Observe:

Resigning Konerko would require pitching how?

Acquiring Manny? Perhaps. Likely they would just want Rowand and for us to take on the bulk of that albatross of a contract.

I don't really know anything about Matsui, but I don't really give a crap about him since most OF's would be adequate replacements.

This is deep pink - it would probably require a 20m increase in payroll. Ok.

But now we have people saying that Manny prevents teams from winning ballgames and that adding sluggers to our lineup makes us a worse team.

Like I said, the crazies are coming out.

Like most people will tell you - the power lineup of years past was not the reason we were unsuccessful. It was the lack of depth in pitching. Like Hangar will be quick to tell you - inserting a hitter who plays exactly like Carlos Lee in the middle of our lineup this year would only have made us better.

Likewise with Manny.

nccwsfan
11-09-2005, 09:02 PM
You didn't attack the feasability of this suggestions. The acquisitions would NOT likely require pitching. Observe:

Resigning Konerko would require pitching how?

Acquiring Manny? Perhaps. Likely they would just want Rowand and for us to take on the bulk of that albatross of a contract.

I don't really know anything about Matsui, but I don't really give a crap about him since most OF's would be adequate replacements.

This is deep pink - it would probably require a 20m increase in payroll. Ok.

But now we have people saying that Manny prevents teams from winning ballgames and that adding sluggers to our lineup makes us a worse team.

Like I said, the crazies are coming out.

Like most people will tell you - the power lineup of years past was not the reason we were unsuccessful. It was the lack of depth in pitching. Like Hangar will be quick to tell you - inserting a hitter who plays exactly like Carlos Lee in the middle of our lineup this year would only have made us better.

Likewise with Manny.

Adding sluggers to the lineup doesn't make this a worse team, but the salaries that go with adding these players will hurt this team long term.

Buehrle- contract through 2006, club option in 2007
Garcia- contract through 2007
Garland- unless he signs a long term deal this winter he's here until 2006
Contreras- contract through 2006
El Duque- contract through 2006

You could feasibly take out El Duque and slot him in with McCarthy, but if you lock up PK at $14-$15 mil AND Matsui at (fill in $$) AND Manny at (fill in major $$$) then you're not going to keep this staff intact for very long. If it comes down to having a monster lineup or a monster starting rotation I'll go with the rotation every day of the week. The original post was how great it would be to have all of those players. If you do then bye to the pitching staff.....

And yes, I do believe that Manny would do more harm than good by bringing his flaky attitude into the clubhouse. The numbers are awesome, but the fit just isn't there. Sorry that I disagree with you here but I'll pass on Manny....

BNLSox
11-10-2005, 12:32 AM
I had no idea this would be such a well thought out conversation. I think everyone has made great points about the pluses and minuses of adding players like Manny and Matsui.

After reading the article about Matsui linked in the talking baseball section I have a good feeling about him. He's the kind of guy who would fit in well with grinder baseball. Manny I could see being a potential problem, although his lightheartedness could also be welcomed.

That being said if we were only able to get one or two seasons out of this super team it may not be worth sacrificing what could be the start of a really dominant run with steady defense and pitching.

Kenny bring us Matsui and Paul back. Pass on Manny. Oh and sign Garland now before he has another amazing year please!

VivaOzzie
11-10-2005, 12:45 AM
What? You mean having the same great pitching AND sensational hitting would make us worse? Run that by me one more time?



Good pitching is made into great pitching by solid defense. A pitcher trusting the guys behind him. Its like the A's when they had the Big 3. Good, solid pitching, but less than stellar defense (especially outfield defense) kept them from going over the top, a la the 2005 Chicago White Sox.

So sensational hitting would make us better. But subtracting our solid outfield defense would make our pitching worse, I guarantee it. Then we start losing the one-run games, and winning far more blowouts. Sorry, I've already been through that era of Sox baseball, it got pretty frustrating.

Its a good thought, but at the most I would take Matsui at DH, and only DH. Don't screw with our outfield.

(And I didn't even mention the team chemistry and future $$ issues)

fquaye149
11-10-2005, 01:27 AM
Good pitching is made into great pitching by solid defense. A pitcher trusting the guys behind him. Its like the A's when they had the Big 3. Good, solid pitching, but less than stellar defense (especially outfield defense) kept them from going over the top, a la the 2005 Chicago White Sox.

So sensational hitting would make us better. But subtracting our solid outfield defense would make our pitching worse, I guarantee it. Then we start losing the one-run games, and winning far more blowouts. Sorry, I've already been through that era of Sox baseball, it got pretty frustrating.

Its a good thought, but at the most I would take Matsui at DH, and only DH. Don't screw with our outfield.

(And I didn't even mention the team chemistry and future $$ issues)

Ok. We've all been through that era. Do you know what the lack of success came from? BAD PITCHING.

I know the defense helped Buehrle, Garland, and Freddy's numbers this year. But for Buehrle and Garland that defense was not in the outfield. Or at least it was primarily in the infield. The fact is, losing Rowand would hurt, but any run prevention he accounts for would be more than spelled by the addition of a big bat.

We have very good pitching. We will have very good pitching no matter who is behind them. Solid defense would be nice, but I'll take Great hitting and Pretty solid defense over Solid defense and Average hitting (especially when the defensive deficiencies fall in the outfield, not the infield)

antitwins13
11-10-2005, 01:56 AM
Where is Frank?

VivaOzzie
11-10-2005, 02:26 PM
Ok. We've all been through that era. Do you know what the lack of success came from? BAD PITCHING.

I know the defense helped Buehrle, Garland, and Freddy's numbers this year. But for Buehrle and Garland that defense was not in the outfield. Or at least it was primarily in the infield. The fact is, losing Rowand would hurt, but any run prevention he accounts for would be more than spelled by the addition of a big bat.

We have very good pitching. We will have very good pitching no matter who is behind them. Solid defense would be nice, but I'll take Great hitting and Pretty solid defense over Solid defense and Average hitting (especially when the defensive deficiencies fall in the outfield, not the infield)

Ok...first off, I'll take solid defense and 'average' hitting over great hitting and 'pretty solid' defense any day. Hitting goes on streaks and droughts, defense does not. And by the way, defensive deficiencies in the infield lead to infield singles and one-base errors. Defensive deficiencies in the outfield lead to extra base hits. Or even better, how about NO defensive deficiencies! Oh, and if you happened to watch the Chicago White Sox play baseball this year, they won a championship with this 'average' hitting and solid defense. They played solid, consistent baseball.

Secondly, the defense that helped Buehrle and Garland wasn't in the outfield? Howso? I realize that they both pitched out of many a jam by inducing a GIDP. That is infield defense. But to say the outfield defense did not help them is assenine. Also, realize that our pitchers knowing that they had solid outfield defense behind them gave them the confidence to throw many pitches (perhaps even pitches that induced GIDP's) that they might otherwise not throw. They know that even if a ball is hit in the gap, our outfield usually runs it down. Confidence in your D, this is called an 'intangible.' Players like ManRam and Matsui offer little positive intangibles, if any at all. Hell, I'm sure when a ball was hit into left field in Boston, their pitchers were surprised to see ManRam on the field instead of taking a piss in the scoreboard.

Thirdly, Podsednik is a left fielder. Please no talk of moving him to center. Do you see how he looks shaky at times the way he tracks down fly balls, or worse, line drives. I get kinda scared until I realize he has the speed to get to the ball and adjust. I don't want this in center field. You need someone who is solid and confident, that man is Crash.

Let me break it down for you...we have a former gold glover in right, we have someone who many think should've won a gold glove in center, we have what many consider to be a center fielder in left. That is SICK. Add a DH, thats fine. Matsui at DH would be great. But don't screw with our outfield. (And I think KW agrees with me)

fquaye149
11-10-2005, 03:39 PM
Ok...first off, I'll take solid defense and 'average' hitting over great hitting and 'pretty solid' defense any day. Hitting goes on streaks and droughts, defense does not. And by the way, defensive deficiencies in the infield lead to infield singles and one-base errors. Defensive deficiencies in the outfield lead to extra base hits. Or even better, how about NO defensive deficiencies! Oh, and if you happened to watch the Chicago White Sox play baseball this year, they won a championship with this 'average' hitting and solid defense. They played solid, consistent baseball.

Secondly, the defense that helped Buehrle and Garland wasn't in the outfield? Howso? I realize that they both pitched out of many a jam by inducing a GIDP. That is infield defense. But to say the outfield defense did not help them is assenine. Also, realize that our pitchers knowing that they had solid outfield defense behind them gave them the confidence to throw many pitches (perhaps even pitches that induced GIDP's) that they might otherwise not throw. They know that even if a ball is hit in the gap, our outfield usually runs it down. Confidence in your D, this is called an 'intangible.' Players like ManRam and Matsui offer little positive intangibles, if any at all. Hell, I'm sure when a ball was hit into left field in Boston, their pitchers were surprised to see ManRam on the field instead of taking a piss in the scoreboard.

Thirdly, Podsednik is a left fielder. Please no talk of moving him to center. Do you see how he looks shaky at times the way he tracks down fly balls, or worse, line drives. I get kinda scared until I realize he has the speed to get to the ball and adjust. I don't want this in center field. You need someone who is solid and confident, that man is Crash.

Let me break it down for you...we have a former gold glover in right, we have someone who many think should've won a gold glove in center, we have what many consider to be a center fielder in left. That is SICK. Add a DH, thats fine. Matsui at DH would be great. But don't screw with our outfield. (And I think KW agrees with me)

Look - I think we currently have a very good team. And if it could produce how they produced at the end of the year we have a very good chance to repeat walking away. But let's not forget what great defense and lousy offense got us in September. Yeah the pitching was a letdown there, but there was also a lot of corpseball. Smallball's great, but we already have plenty of guys who can execute. I might be in the minority here, but I would like to supplement Paulie (hoping we resign him) with some lineup protection.

Yes, I know JD and AJ got the job done around him in October, but do you really want to go into next season with one of each batting ahead and behind Paulie? And that's ASSUMING we resign Paulie and reup with AJ.

Yikes.

nccwsfan
11-10-2005, 03:45 PM
Look - I think we currently have a very good team. And if it could produce how they produced at the end of the year we have a very good chance to repeat walking away. But let's not forget what great defense and lousy offense got us in September. Yeah the pitching was a letdown there, but there was also a lot of corpseball. Smallball's great, but we already have plenty of guys who can execute. I might be in the minority here, but I would like to supplement Paulie (hoping we resign him) with some lineup protection.

Yes, I know JD and AJ got the job done around him in October, but do you really want to go into next season with one of each batting ahead and behind Paulie? And that's ASSUMING we resign Paulie and reup with AJ.

Yikes.

Do the White Sox need to get more offensive production in place? Yes, and I think with or without PK that they need to do so. But when you're talking Manny and Matsui that's waaaaay too many $$$ to commit, especially if we're looking to make this a contender long term. Again I'm one who wants the pitching to be solidified first. After that absolutely get everything you can with the resources available. KW has proven to me that he'll do the right things....

fquaye149
11-10-2005, 04:32 PM
Do the White Sox need to get more offensive production in place? Yes, and I think with or without PK that they need to do so. But when you're talking Manny and Matsui that's waaaaay too many $$$ to commit, especially if we're looking to make this a contender long term. Again I'm one who wants the pitching to be solidified first. After that absolutely get everything you can with the resources available. KW has proven to me that he'll do the right things....

We'll see. I don't like Matsui, honestly, I don't. But I AM interested in adding Manny, and a bat like Matsui's looks good in there.

I really don't think that adding Manny is completely out of the question. But we'll see.

I have faith in Kenny's ability to construct a team