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View Full Version : After the Big 4, if PK leaves, who would


caulfield12
11-09-2005, 08:42 AM
you most want to get as a DH-1B-RF?

Delgado, Thome, Helton, Giles


Some other interesting options, with positives and negatives associated with each...

Mike Piazza...solely as a DH, might have some added life with chance to rest from catching...not an option at 1B defensively...big name, will more offspeed pitches in the AL speed up his bat?...would be a marquee name to replace Konerko and continue fan excitement and momentum in the offseason

Soriano...where we would he play in the field? would have to DH, which might not be something he wants to do despite his obvious shortcomings in CF and 2B...big contract...strikes out way too much and not reputed to be a team-oriented or Ozzie Ball type of player...has been moved or speculated in trade too much for there not to be problems

Matsui...one of the better options out there to fill the 3 or 4 hole if the Yankees do not resign him....might want to get out of the fishbowl and be teamed up with Iguchi...also would not be able to play LF everyday, as Pods is a better defender based mostly on his speed...almost the same contract as Konerko will be getting is my assumption, $11-13 million per season, perhaps a little lower

Abreu....from Venezuela, a great offensive and defensive combination that has always been underrated throughout his career due to his quiet nature...only problem would be Dye would have no choice but to move to 1B or DH, whereas it would be more logical to find a natural 1B to replace Paul

Overbay...the best of the ¨sign two or three players¨ to take PK´s place option, and hope at least one of them has a huge season

Bernie Williams...certainly not to play CF everyday, as that period of his career is over...but if you paired him with another player in a platoon and put him out there to rest Rowand occasionally, it might work...of course, another problem with OFers is that they would block Anderson, Young, Sweeney, Owens, etc., down the line

Sammy Sosa...not as crazy as it sounds, because you could probably give him a contract almost entirely based on incentives....of course, there are many obvious downsides, but it is something every GM is at least pondering, because if it doesn´t work, they could simply release him without much of a downside, a decision for Ozzie to ponder most of all...but between Sosa and Thomas, I would think that ONE of them would end up doing the job

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 08:49 AM
I have not looked at his historical career stats for the splits, but it seems that Bernie would be a very good DH option against RH pitching, with someone else filling the role against LHP, such as Anderson or Rogowski. There is a pretty big power differential for Bernie between the LH and RH side. Not quite Jose Valentin-esque, but similar trends.

Anderson could also play LF for Pods against tough lefties.

Deuce
11-09-2005, 08:52 AM
Sammy SosaHere's a nickel. Seek help, please.

:therapy:

Deuce

CanBuehrleWait
11-09-2005, 08:55 AM
I have not looked at his historical career stats for the splits, but it seems that Bernie would be a very good DH option against RH pitching, with someone else filling the role against LHP, such as Anderson or Rogowski. There is a pretty big power differential for Bernie between the LH and RH side. Not quite Jose Valentin-esque, but similar trends.

Anderson could also play LF for Pods against tough lefties.

Didn't Pods and AJ hit lefties surprisingly well?

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 08:58 AM
Here's a nickel. Seek help, please.

:therapy:

Deuce

There are many posters that thinking taking on the contract of a Delgado, Helton or Thome would require therapy for Sox fans, too. Heck, at many poits over the last 2-3 seasons, we could not have traded Konerko without paying at least one-third of his salary to the acquiring team. Have you forgotten that? Konerko´s contract was considered to be the one that was holding the franchise back...and now look how things have changed. Were you one of the fans telling KW to resign Konerko for 3 more years at $10-11 million per season before 2005 started? Where is that quote? I am sure it does not exist.

Obviously, Sosa´s not going to happen. But you have to consider upside versus downside. One, it would only cost us the same amount of money we spent on Ben Davis to sit in AAA and get injured. Two, it would be great revenge on Cubs´fans to see Sosa hit 25-30 homers again for the Sox. If things did not work out, they could cut him in spring training, if they wanted to. It would help sell season tickets, even if he did not play an inning during the regular season. And I think Sosa would be a much better team player on a WS-defending team with his last chance at a ring, and vindicating his career and possibly repairing a little his Hall of Fame credentials.

If you started a poll, I am sure there would be as many fans who would predict Sosa to hit more homers than Frank Thomas as vice-versa.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 09:08 AM
Didn't Pods and AJ hit lefties surprisingly well?

Pods did hit .330 against LHP this season, but Ozzie still sat him down quite a bit the second half of the season, after his injury, when there was a tough lefty on the mound.

I would not be opposed to sitting Rowand.

AJ was .230 against lefties, .263 against righties. He was overmatched quite a bit in the post-season against LHP.

Norberto7
11-09-2005, 09:09 AM
...It would help sell season tickets...

Would it? What kind of Sox fan would pay for season tickets because of Sammy Sosa?

munchman33
11-09-2005, 09:12 AM
Move Jermaine to first. Sign Brian Giles to play right.

You don't lose anything to sign Giles.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 09:16 AM
Would it? What kind of Sox fan would pay for season tickets because of Sammy Sosa?

I am sure the ¨true¨ Sox fans would be no more excited about Sosa than they were Albert Belle or David Wells.

OTOH, if we are marketing the team to the entire Chicago community as well as picking up single game sales from tourists, then there will be a pick up in that area.

The White Sox saw a jump, not huge but a difference, when Jose Canseco and Bo Jackson were on the team. Of course, it helps to put them on a winning team...but if you are talking about fighting for the hearts of 7-14 year old boy in the Chicagoland area, Sosa is one of them names that will attract their interest and motivate them to ask their parents to take them to a game.

Norberto7
11-09-2005, 09:25 AM
I am sure the ¨true¨ Sox fans would be no more excited about Sosa than they were Albert Belle or David Wells.

OTOH, if we are marketing the team to the entire Chicago community as well as picking up single game sales from tourists, then there will be a pick up in that area.

The White Sox saw a jump, not huge but a difference, when Jose Canseco and Bo Jackson were on the team. Of course, it helps to put them on a winning team...but if you are talking about fighting for the hearts of 7-14 year old boy in the Chicagoland area, Sosa is one of them names that will attract their interest and motivate them to ask their parents to take them to a game.

Though it makes no difference, I would argue that Sosa has no drawing power left in this town, and perhaps would have "repulsing" power. Cubs fans have been conditioned to not like him, and Sox fans know who he is.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 09:27 AM
Move Jermaine to first. Sign Brian Giles to play right.

You don't lose anything to sign Giles.

The Reds' asking price is too high, so the Astros don't have much of a shot at acquiring Texas native Adam Dunn until after 2007, when he becomes a free agent. But Brian Giles may be an even more attractive option; his power numbers have been on the decline, which is partially due to hitting in cavernous Petco Park, but Giles gets on base and his low strikeout-walk ratio would make an ideal addition in the lineup. Other intriguing outfield options for the Astros could include Moises Alou, Aubrey Huff, Jacque Jones, and Reggie Sanders.

Add some more names to the OF-DH discussion list.....Alou, Huff, J. Jones and Sanders.

VenturaSoxFan23
11-09-2005, 09:34 AM
Would it? What kind of Sox fan would pay for season tickets because of Sammy Sosa?

:woo-woo

"WOO! SOX! WOO! SOX!"

The Wall
11-09-2005, 09:38 AM
As crazy as it might sound, get Juan Pierre from Florida or Carl Crawford from Tampabay. Then get them to play outfield, move Jermaine to 1st in the offseason and sign him to another 2 year extension. Platoon one outfielder to play DH with Frank (if resigned)/Anderson. Let Iguchi hit in the 3-hole and move Dye to cleanup.


I think I covered all the bases :)

FanofBill
11-09-2005, 09:43 AM
Would it? What kind of Sox fan would pay for season tickets because of Sammy Sosa?

This team is about chemistry and adding Sosa would only destroy that chemistry. Sosa, he of the prefer treatment. Ah, ah, let some other team sign him.

pythons007
11-09-2005, 09:47 AM
As crazy as it might sound, get Juan Pierre from Florida or Carl Crawford from Tampabay. Then get them to play outfield, move Jermaine to 1st in the offseason and sign him to another 2 year extension. Platoon one outfielder to play DH with Frank (if resigned)/Anderson. Let Iguchi hit in the 3-hole and move Dye to cleanup.


I think I covered all the bases :)

How are we suppose to get Pierre or Crawford????

MadetoOrta
11-09-2005, 09:52 AM
As crazy as it might sound, get Juan Pierre from Florida or Carl Crawford from Tampabay. Then get them to play outfield, move Jermaine to 1st in the offseason and sign him to another 2 year extension. Platoon one outfielder to play DH with Frank (if resigned)/Anderson. Let Iguchi hit in the 3-hole and move Dye to cleanup.


I think I covered all the bases :)

Bingo! We have a winner. CARL CRAWFORD IS A BUDDING SUPERSTAR! Here's the problem: Tampa has him locked up in a great contract [for the team]. I believe it's 4 more years at $5 million per. That's a steal. He could also be a #3 hitter. Wow. Unfortunately, not likely to happen. That Tampa team is loaded.

bobowhite
11-09-2005, 09:52 AM
Mike Piazza...solely as a DH, might have some added life with chance to rest from catching...not an option at 1B defensively...big name, will more offspeed pitches in the AL speed up his bat?...would be a marquee name to replace Konerko and continue fan excitement and momentum in the offseason
Could replace Carl but not Konerko.

Soriano...where we would he play in the field? would have to DH, which might not be something he wants to do despite his obvious shortcomings in CF and 2B...big contract...strikes out way too much and not reputed to be a team-oriented or Ozzie Ball type of player...has been moved or speculated in trade too much for there not to be problems
You are insane if you think Soriano would help.

Matsui...one of the better options out there to fill the 3 or 4 hole if the Yankees do not resign him....might want to get out of the fishbowl and be teamed up with Iguchi...also would not be able to play LF everyday, as Pods is a better defender based mostly on his speed...almost the same contract as Konerko will be getting is my assumption, $11-13 million per season, perhaps a little lower
Matsui and Iguchi are from opposite ends of Japanese society, especially baseball. I doubt this would work well at all.

Abreu....from Venezuela, a great offensive and defensive combination that has always been underrated throughout his career due to his quiet nature...only problem would be Dye would have no choice but to move to 1B or DH, whereas it would be more logical to find a natural 1B to replace Paul
Dye will not move to 1B.

Overbay...the best of the ¨sign two or three players¨ to take PK´s place option, and hope at least one of them has a huge season
Not much of an option.

Bernie Williams...certainly not to play CF everyday, as that period of his career is over...but if you paired him with another player in a platoon and put him out there to rest Rowand occasionally, it might work...of course, another problem with OFers is that they would block Anderson, Young, Sweeney, Owens, etc., down the line
Now, I know you are insane.

Sammy Sosa...not as crazy as it sounds, because you could probably give him a contract almost entirely based on incentives....of course, there are many obvious downsides, but it is something every GM is at least pondering, because if it doesn´t work, they could simply release him without much of a downside, a decision for Ozzie to ponder most of all...but between Sosa and Thomas, I would think that ONE of them would end up doing the job
No, it's crazier. I doubt anyone will be touching him.

CHIsoxNation
11-09-2005, 10:11 AM
... If you started a poll, I am sure there would be as many fans who would predict Sosa to hit more homers than Frank Thomas as vice-versa.

I might agree with you if, if steroids became legal in 2006.

FanofBill
11-09-2005, 11:04 AM
If you started a poll, I am sure there would be as many fans who would predict Sosa to hit more homers than Frank Thomas as vice-versa.


Frank Thomas and Sammy Sosa 2005 stats:
AB AVG HR RBI
380 .221 14 45
105 .219 12 26

That is not much different for someone who has only 105 AB compare 380, I say Frank is still a much better player than Sosa and will hit more home run with a full season.

mdep524
11-09-2005, 11:18 AM
I have a feeling that Piazza will have a very strong season in the AL next year as somebody's DH. So that is a decent option, although it's one I don't think the Sox will pursue.

Soriano, Williams and Sosa are all literally nothing more than jokes for the 2006 White Sox. If you don't understand why, go back and re-watch the '05 Sox play and win.

Abreu is a heck of a hitter, but there's some questionable vibes surrounding him. Word out of Philly is he's lazy, undisciplined, unmotivated, and not super competitive. The big wildcard would be how he reacts to Ozzie. I don't see that happening, though it is interesting to think about.

How are we suppose to get Pierre or Crawford???? Juan Pierre IS reportedly available via trade from Florida. I don't see any reason at all why Tampa Bay would even consider trading Carl Crawford, so you can throw that idea out.

Matsui and Iguchi are from opposite ends of Japanese society, especially baseball. I doubt this would work well at all. You have to explain this one to me. Do they not get along personally?

Realist
11-09-2005, 11:20 AM
I think a dark horse to join the Sox and make a big impact next season may be Joe Borchard. His minor league season last year was very similar to Jermaine Dye's major league season. He started out awful and kept getting better as the year went on. It seems he's shortened his swing up a bit and he's still young enough to figure it all out and make huge improvements.

Maybe the Sox think this is true too. During the playoffs they seemed to always have 3 guys with them that weren't on the roster: Anderson, McCarthy and Borchard. If Borchard has a good spring, I would be pretty interested in seeing him in Everett's roll from 2005.

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2005, 11:24 AM
Here's a nickel. Seek help, please.

:therapy:

DeuceSeriously. How did Rafael Palmeiro get left off the list? :rolleyes:

The Wall
11-09-2005, 11:27 AM
what? Tampa wont trade Crawford whoz owed like 20% of their team salary? you would be nuts to not trade him now for 2 young pitchers...like a Garland and a minor leaguer. You know KW will pull the trigger if that is the price.

RowanDye
11-09-2005, 11:28 AM
The Reds' asking price is too high, so the Astros don't have much of a shot at acquiring Texas native Adam Dunn until after 2007, when he becomes a free agent. But Brian Giles may be an even more attractive option; his power numbers have been on the decline, which is partially due to hitting in cavernous Petco Park, but Giles gets on base and his low strikeout-walk ratio would make an ideal addition in the lineup. Other intriguing outfield options for the Astros could include Moises Alou, Aubrey Huff, Jacque Jones, and Reggie Sanders.

Add some more names to the OF-DH discussion list.....Alou, Huff, J. Jones and Sanders.

Huh? Did you just do a Google search for Giles and then cut and paste a quote? WoW

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 11:31 AM
Could replace Carl but not Konerko.

You are insane if you think Soriano would help.

Matsui and Iguchi are from opposite ends of Japanese society, especially baseball. I doubt this would work well at all.

Dye will not move to 1B.

Not much of an option.

Now, I know you are insane.

No, it's crazier. I doubt anyone will be touching him.


Okay, since you are obviously one of those Sox fans who thinks we are going to spend $100 million and bring back Konerko AND sign or trade for a FA at DH, what would you do? Do you think we should spend $13-15 million per year on Konerko? Just curious.

Soriano is an offensive force, and I have no problem with him, as long as he´s not in the field. Remember Everett, AJ, Contreras, etc., were all ¨clubhouse¨ problems or had labels attached...how do you know Ozzie would not be able to talk some sense into him?

It is almost a logical as all the Sox fans who think we are just going to ask for Miguel Cabrera in a trade and that Ozzie can work his magic to make him a complete team player...and that the Marlins won´t expect half our minor league depth chart in return.

What the heck does opposite ends of the spectrum mean? I have seen no less than three articles recently speculating about how Matsui followed the Sox closely in October and would like to join Iguchi. No mention of a cultural bourgeosie proletariat clash in them.

The most commonly accepted notion by everyone around the organization is that Dye could move to 1B with Anderson in RF if Konerko leaves...yet you are the only one who does not believe this, apparently.

Project Williams´ numbers out for a good 350 at-bats against only RH pitching and the numbers look very strong, as long as you have someone to pair him with. Carl Everett was worthless against LHP this year....we paid him $5.5 million, so what is so crazy about giving Williams a deal worth $2-3 million, plus incentives? He is a proven clubhouse leader and an all-around good guy and would bring his 4 World Championships and positive attitude with him. He could teach youngsters like Young, Sweeney, Anderson, Borchard and Owens a thing or two, don´t you think?

How much time have you spent actually watching Lyle Overbay throughout his career? Please explain in detail why you think he would not be a good fit with the organization.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 11:34 AM
Huh? Did you just do a Google search for Giles and then cut and paste a quote? WoW

The White Sox have the exact same problem as the Astros, so you might as well substitute White Sox for Astros. Actually, less of a problem, because they have Berkman and we have a HUGE hole in the middle of the line-up right now.

Whoever thinks we are going to trade for Helton or Delgado at those bloated salary numbers is insane. They have not followed this ownership group very closely for the last 25 years.

Acquire Giles? Maybe. Take Thome, as long as the Phillies pay half his contract? Once again, maybe. But the Sox are not going to start operating in an entirely different fashion.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 11:37 AM
what? Tampa wont trade Crawford whoz owed like 20% of their team salary? you would be nuts to not trade him now for 2 young pitchers...like a Garland and a minor leaguer. You know KW will pull the trigger if that is the price.

Then what? Which outfielder are you going to put on the bench or at DH?

Are you going to move Pods to CF and Rowand to RF, with Dye moving to 1B?

Would Crawford be happy with DHing full-time, or Pods?

Why would the D-Rays want to trade away their best player to rent Jon Garland for one season, then lose him to the West Coast?

And what minor leaguer would they possibly want? They would ask for Garland and at least two more top prospects, because they would have no chance of signing Garland.

Fake Chet Lemon
11-09-2005, 11:51 AM
DH- TODD WALKER: If the Cubs get Furcal, Todd Walker would be available in exchange for some bullpen help. His left handed stick at DH would be solid without breaking the bank. Iguchi wore down, having Walker play 2B once a week would help there too. We need a left handed hitting presence.

RF/1B GILES: Giles is an on base % machine and would look good in Right Field with Dye moving over to 1B should Konerko leave.

The Dude
11-09-2005, 11:56 AM
you most want to get as a DH-1B-RF?


Mike Piazza...solely as a DH, might have some added life with chance to rest from catching...not an option at 1B defensively...big name, will more offspeed pitches in the AL speed up his bat?...would be a marquee name to replace Konerko and continue fan excitement and momentum in the offseason


Bernie Williams...certainly not to play CF everyday, as that period of his career is over...but if you paired him with another player in a platoon and put him out there to rest Rowand occasionally, it might work...of course, another problem with OFers is that they would block Anderson, Young, Sweeney, Owens, etc., down the line

Sammy Sosa...not as crazy as it sounds, because you could probably give him a contract almost entirely based on incentives....of course, there are many obvious downsides, but it is something every GM is at least pondering, because if it doesn´t work, they could simply release him without much of a downside, a decision for Ozzie to ponder most of all...but between Sosa and Thomas, I would think that ONE of them would end up doing the job

These 3 make me want to tag the overly used chunks tag. You have got to be kidding me! Sosa and Williams are pure garbage and you actually think Sox fans would approve of Sosa returning to the southside? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!:rolleyes: :o:

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2005, 12:00 PM
RF/1B GILES: Giles is an on base % machine and would look good in Right Field with Dye moving over to 1B should Konerko leave.Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot better to keep Dye in RF and take advantage of his defense? Put Giles in CF, trade Rowand for bullpen help and sign Kevin Millar.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 12:06 PM
DH- TODD WALKER: If the Cubs get Furcal, Todd Walker would be available in exchange for some bullpen help. His left handed stick at DH would be solid without breaking the bank. Iguchi wore down, having Walker play 2B once a week would help there too. We need a left handed hitting presence.

RF/1B GILES: Giles is an on base % machine and would look good in Right Field with Dye moving over to 1B should Konerko leave.

Do you really believe that Walker could be a full-time DH at this point in his career? What are his splits against LHP versus RHP?

To me, this still does not solve our 3-4 slots in the order. If we got Giles, yes, you can have hit 3 with Dye 4 or vice-versa...but where would you hit Walker? would you hit him 2nd and move Iguchi down in the line-up, say, to 5th? I am also not totally convinced that Walker would do as good a job as Iguchi hitting behind Pods...although I guess you could hit Walker anywhere from 5th through 9th. Crede, Rowand and AJ could occupy higher spots in the order, depending on the match up that day. But I think we need to do more than get Todd Walker.

If you told me Thomas was coming back, along with Walker and Giles, well, maybe that would be enough. I would okay with it.

CHIsoxNation
11-09-2005, 12:09 PM
Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot better to keep Dye in RF and take advantage of his defense? Put Giles in CF, trade Rowand for bullpen help and sign Kevin Millar.

I agree. We have a plethora of outfield prospects moving up in the system. If there is anyone in the outfield right now that I think could become great trade bate it is Rowand. You have to keep Scotty and see if he can repeat what he did last year at the top of the order and Dye has shown that he isn't washed up and plays a great right field.

If you can't pick up Giles to play center then you have Anderson to plug in that spot and hopefully you can put together a decent package around Rowand to bring in another bat as DH.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 12:10 PM
Wouldn't it be a hell of a lot better to keep Dye in RF and take advantage of his defense? Put Giles in CF, trade Rowand for bullpen help and sign Kevin Millar.

Millar will hit fewer homers than Ross Gload. We might as well just use him...plus, he is better defensively.

If we are to get anyone from the Red Sox, it should be Mueller, who is much more versatile and has better power numbers.

UofCSoxFan
11-09-2005, 12:36 PM
I want to punch my computer every time someone brings up the "let's just stick dye at first base." Is the only reason people think this is b/c he played 1 GAME there during the season and didn't screw up? First of all, he has won a GOLD GLOVE in RF and probably could win another one. Second, first base is not as easy to play as some people would have you believe. Fielding a grounder at first base from a lefty is similar to fielding a hot smash from a righty at third base. It is a HELLUVA lot different than fielding a grounder in RF. Why not stick Pods at first base while we're at it?

This isn't Triple Play Baseball (or whatever the PS2 game is called now) and 1B is not RF in men's 16inch softball. You can't stick anyone at 1B and see no difference.

UofCSoxFan
11-09-2005, 12:37 PM
FWIW....espn radio reported about 15 min ago that the Sox are prepared to offer Paulie a 4 year deal....52 million over the course of the deal.

CHIsoxNation
11-09-2005, 12:40 PM
FWIW....espn radio reported about 15 min ago that the Sox are prepared to offer Paulie a 4 year deal....52 million over the course of the deal.

They were talking about this yesterday too and it was in the paper this morning. There is word (accoring to the Sun Times) that this may not be their first offer. But either way, I think it's a pretty good start before he hits free agency this weekend.

soxfanreggie
11-09-2005, 12:50 PM
If we're willing to offer him $13 mil a year for 4 years...why not just offer 5 years $55-60 mil...I'm willing to pay an extra few mil to keep Paulie here for the 5 he wants.

Except for the difference in years, it is a great offer...$13 mil per...a very good starting point. I'm surprised they wouldn't be willing to lower it and tack on an extra year though if that is what it took to keep him...or have a mutual option with buyout for that last year like Frank had. That way he's guaranteed 5th year money and could also re-sign for lower like Thomas did while still making the bank. However, we're talking about someone who, no matter what he signs for, will be set (not that he isn't already) forever. There's no way he should blow that much money. I mean, heck, after taxes and agent/legal fees and whatever else, he can still set aside many many millions in a bank account that will pay more interest per year than many of us will see.

voodoochile
11-09-2005, 12:57 PM
...snip ...However, we're talking about someone who, no matter what he signs for, will be set (not that he isn't already) forever. There's no way he should blow that much money. I mean, heck, after taxes and agent/legal fees and whatever else, he can still set aside many many millions in a bank account that will pay more interest per year than many of us will see.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with the final signing price, unfortunately...

Ol' No. 2
11-09-2005, 01:10 PM
FWIW....espn radio reported about 15 min ago that the Sox are prepared to offer Paulie a 4 year deal....52 million over the course of the deal.I don't believe any of these reports. KW plays these about as close to the vest as any GM anywhere. I seriously doubt he called up ESPN radio BEFORE HE MADE THE OFFER and told them what he was going to do.

bobowhite
11-09-2005, 01:35 PM
Okay, since you are obviously one of those Sox fans who thinks we are going to spend $100 million and bring back Konerko AND sign or trade for a FA at DH, what would you do? Do you think we should spend $13-15 million per year on Konerko? Just curious.

Soriano is an offensive force, and I have no problem with him, as long as he´s not in the field. Remember Everett, AJ, Contreras, etc., were all ¨clubhouse¨ problems or had labels attached...how do you know Ozzie would not be able to talk some sense into him?

It is almost a logical as all the Sox fans who think we are just going to ask for Miguel Cabrera in a trade and that Ozzie can work his magic to make him a complete team player...and that the Marlins won´t expect half our minor league depth chart in return.

What the heck does opposite ends of the spectrum mean? I have seen no less than three articles recently speculating about how Matsui followed the Sox closely in October and would like to join Iguchi. No mention of a cultural bourgeosie proletariat clash in them.

The most commonly accepted notion by everyone around the organization is that Dye could move to 1B with Anderson in RF if Konerko leaves...yet you are the only one who does not believe this, apparently.

Project Williams´ numbers out for a good 350 at-bats against only RH pitching and the numbers look very strong, as long as you have someone to pair him with. Carl Everett was worthless against LHP this year....we paid him $5.5 million, so what is so crazy about giving Williams a deal worth $2-3 million, plus incentives? He is a proven clubhouse leader and an all-around good guy and would bring his 4 World Championships and positive attitude with him. He could teach youngsters like Young, Sweeney, Anderson, Borchard and Owens a thing or two, don´t you think?

How much time have you spent actually watching Lyle Overbay throughout his career? Please explain in detail why you think he would not be a good fit with the organization.

Man do you ask a lot of questions.

I do think the Sox and Paulie will reach a deal for something like $13 mill/yr and some sweetener. That means a raise of roughly $5 million a year to the mid-$70 million on the Sox budget. How you get to the inflated figure of $100 million is beyond me. I project their budget up about $10-12 million, roughly mid-eighties. The Sox have a DH in Frank and should he go down then I think the Sox will figure out an insurance policy like Carl Everett or rotate regulars thru DH to keep their bat in the lineup but the player fresh. I have little doubt Ozzie can work something like that out.

Soriano is a serious strikeout problem. Ozzie hates strikeout problems. When Iguchi had a spell of a lot of strikeouts, thats when Ozzie sat him down for a few days. The Yanks unloaded Soriano because he wasn't producing enough runs for them and the owner of the Rangers was dumb enough to think Soriano would get them into the playoffs. See how well that worked. Also Ozzie doesn't seem to like one dimensional players. Frank he can deal with, Soriano isn't coming to the Sox.

I don't care how many articles you see speculating that Matsui would like to come to the Sox. I don't see any of them here http://www.japanball.com/news_list.phtml None of them were written by people who know one thing about Japan or Japanese baseball. I used to live there and 'Crash Davis ed' in the Dragons organization for 3 years.
Matsui was a pampered baseball-brat from day one in Japan. He was signed by the Giants (equivalent to the Yankees) out of high-school as their "super-rookie" His nickname of 'Godzilla' is not complimentary. No team drafted Iguchi so he went to college to perfect his craft, where his underdog team won the national championship. He was drafted by the Japanese equivalent of the Montreal Expos, played two positions just to help out and turned himself into exactly what his team needed. He led them to the playoffs and won the series. If you want a bluer than blue collar guy, it's Iguchi. Matsui is the Deion Sanders of Japanese baseball. Think they'll get along?

Once again your gift of hyperbole is in full tilt. Everyone else believes Dye will happily move to 1B next season? Why move a near gold-glove RF to first (apart from emergencies) at all? Apart from this disrupting every aspect of Dye's game and causing a lot more infield errors there just isn't a reason for it. Please show me a source of anyone in the Sox organization talking about this seriously.

I have nothing against Williams but he's too old and too slow. If the Yankees are giving up on a guy that's done the world for them, why should the Sox pick him up? I agree Everett can't hit LHP, but Williams is not the answer. Neither Ozzie nor KW has shown a habit of picking up guys 'just in case they have a big season left in them' If you think that's how they operate at all then you just don't know that much about baseball.

I also have nothing against Overbay, but I seriously doubt the Sox can pry him away from the Brewers. The Brewers finally made .500 this season and they have an exciting team, which I see a few times a year (my young nephews reside in Milwaukee.) Overbay is good, not great, but needed in Milwaukee's lineup. He's not a problem child and the Sox would have to cough up full value for him.

Garland_IS_God
11-09-2005, 01:36 PM
Sammy Sosa....:?:

TheOldRoman
11-09-2005, 01:53 PM
I don't believe any of these reports. KW plays these about as close to the vest as any GM anywhere. I seriously doubt he called up ESPN radio BEFORE HE MADE THE OFFER and told them what he was going to do.
I dont know. I mean, Levineline is a "baseball EXPERT". I'm sure KW called him to run it by him.

:KW
"Hey Bruce, how does 4 years/ $52mil for Paulie sound?"

:Levine:
"You should trade Jon Garland to the Cubs for Todd Hollandsworth."

TheOldRoman
11-09-2005, 02:04 PM
what? Tampa wont trade Crawford whoz owed like 20% of their team salary? you would be nuts to not trade him now for 2 young pitchers...like a Garland and a minor leaguer. You know KW will pull the trigger if that is the price.
Umm, I think you are greatly overrating Crawford. He is a very good young player, and someone I would love to have, but he doesn't fill any gaping holes. Yes, the Rays would jump at Garland for Crawford if they are smart (new GM can't possibly be as dumb as Lamar), especially considering how much hitting talent TB has coming up through the ranks.

Great young pitcher are much harder to come by than great young hitters. You can't trade Garland unless you are getting a huge piece in return. I am talking about the great slugger that we need. Crawford could take over CF with his awesome range. He would bat .300 and steal 40-60 bases with 15-20 homers. That would definately help the Sox, but that isn't a need. We need a 1B and a DH. If Garland could bring us Thome plus lots of cash, Ryan Howard, or Todd Helton plus lots of cash, that is the only way you can trade him.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 05:51 PM
Man do you ask a lot of questions.

I do think the Sox and Paulie will reach a deal for something like $13 mill/yr and some sweetener. That means a raise of roughly $5 million a year to the mid-$70 million on the Sox budget. How you get to the inflated figure of $100 million is beyond me. I project their budget up about $10-12 million, roughly mid-eighties. The Sox have a DH in Frank and should he go down then I think the Sox will figure out an insurance policy like Carl Everett or rotate regulars thru DH to keep their bat in the lineup but the player fresh. I have little doubt Ozzie can work something like that out.

Soriano is a serious strikeout problem. Ozzie hates strikeout problems. When Iguchi had a spell of a lot of strikeouts, thats when Ozzie sat him down for a few days. The Yanks unloaded Soriano because he wasn't producing enough runs for them and the owner of the Rangers was dumb enough to think Soriano would get them into the playoffs. See how well that worked. Also Ozzie doesn't seem to like one dimensional players. Frank he can deal with, Soriano isn't coming to the Sox.

I don't care how many articles you see speculating that Matsui would like to come to the Sox. I don't see any of them here http://www.japanball.com/news_list.phtml None of them were written by people who know one thing about Japan or Japanese baseball. I used to live there and 'Crash Davis ed' in the Dragons organization for 3 years.
Matsui was a pampered baseball-brat from day one in Japan. He was signed by the Giants (equivalent to the Yankees) out of high-school as their "super-rookie" His nickname of 'Godzilla' is not complimentary. No team drafted Iguchi so he went to college to perfect his craft, where his underdog team won the national championship. He was drafted by the Japanese equivalent of the Montreal Expos, played two positions just to help out and turned himself into exactly what his team needed. He led them to the playoffs and won the series. If you want a bluer than blue collar guy, it's Iguchi. Matsui is the Deion Sanders of Japanese baseball. Think they'll get along?

Once again your gift of hyperbole is in full tilt. Everyone else believes Dye will happily move to 1B next season? Why move a near gold-glove RF to first (apart from emergencies) at all? Apart from this disrupting every aspect of Dye's game and causing a lot more infield errors there just isn't a reason for it. Please show me a source of anyone in the Sox organization talking about this seriously.

I have nothing against Williams but he's too old and too slow. If the Yankees are giving up on a guy that's done the world for them, why should the Sox pick him up? I agree Everett can't hit LHP, but Williams is not the answer. Neither Ozzie nor KW has shown a habit of picking up guys 'just in case they have a big season left in them' If you think that's how they operate at all then you just don't know that much about baseball.

I also have nothing against Overbay, but I seriously doubt the Sox can pry him away from the Brewers. The Brewers finally made .500 this season and they have an exciting team, which I see a few times a year (my young nephews reside in Milwaukee.) Overbay is good, not great, but needed in Milwaukee's lineup. He's not a problem child and the Sox would have to cough up full value for him.

Konerko is already at the $13 million mark and he hasn´t even hit free agency yet. It will end up between $14-15 mil now from all appearances.

I can´t see Everett being back. After all the problems in the 2nd half with his spot in the batting order despite lack of production, do you really think he would come back knowing that Thomas is being given the first shot at the position and he might possibly sit on the bench for the entire season if Thomas turned out to be healthy. Do you really want Everett back, even at $3.5 million (considering we are already paying him $500,000, and an incentives-based deal won´t work unless we don´t bring Thomas back).

How many seasons has Dye been healthy? He is not the same defensive player since he broke his leg...he just doesn´t get the jumps and doesn´t run as well as he used to. His health would be protected more at 1B. He´s athletic, he can jump much better than Paulie...it´s not a done deal, but I think they should give him a full-offseason to prepare and see how comfortable he feels. He could play in the Winter Leagues...not sure if it will come to that though. Dye won the Gold Glove mostly based on his arm.

We have lots of strikeout problems on this team, foremost among them being Aaron Rowand, who you cannot even compare to Rowand in terms of OPS, slugging and any measure of offensive production.

Williams would be on the team strictly as a DH, not an outfielder.

Examples of KW taking a flyer on one more ¨big season¨ left in them veterans....

David Wells
Todd Ritchie (although more of a case of hoping he would step it up, he was mediocre before and certainly not a star in any stretch of the imagination)
Everett
Roberto Alomar
Kenny Lofton
Billy Koch (he thought he was going to get his fastball back, obviously wrong)
Cal Eldred
Alan Embree
Sandy Alomar
Herb Perry
Harold Baines
Jose Canseco
Tom Gordon
Esteban Loaiza
Scott Sullivan
Brian Daubach
Armando Rios

Most of these players were thought to be at the end of their careers when they joined the White Sox. Some were more established and previously stars...but all were calculated risks in attempts to sign talent at lower prices than other teams were paying for big-name players.

After Karkovice, seemingly every year, we brought in a reclamation project catcher just for one or two seasons...hoping to eke out some decent offensive stats because our minor league system couldn´t produce a stud catcher. Mark Johnson was the closest, but he couldn´t hit his way out of a paper bag.

DaleJRFan
11-09-2005, 05:54 PM
Seriously. How did Rafael Palmeiro get left off the list? :rolleyes:

LOL. Wally Joyner, too.

DickAllen72
11-09-2005, 06:19 PM
Sammy Sosa...not as crazy as it sounds, because you could probably give him a contract almost entirely based on incentives....of course, there are many obvious downsides, but it is something every GM is at least pondering, because if it doesn´t work, they could simply release him without much of a downside, a decision for Ozzie to ponder most of all...but between Sosa and Thomas, I would think that ONE of them would end up doing the job

While I don't want Sosa anywhere near this team, I always liked your willingness to consider all options and also your ability to think outside the box. So let me bounce this option off of you:

Sox sign Rafael Furcal, move Uribe to 2B and Iguchi to DH.

Ozzie has stated he wants more speed next year. He has also repeatedly stated that he would like to bat Iguchi in the middle of the lineup. Iguchi seems to want this also.

Furcal allows Ozzie to accomplish these things while losing little if any defense at SS plus improving the defense at 2B while saving Iguchi's legs. Also it gives the Sox depth in the event Crede's back goes out, Uribe gets hurt, or if Pods goes down they still have a legitimate leadoff hitter.

The lineup:
Pods LF
Furcal SS
Iguchi DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B
Uribe 2B

Again, this is only suggested as an option. I got skewered by someone on another thread for even suggesting this as a possibility, but I'm interested in your take on it, as well as anyone else who can discuss it rationally.

Edit: Out of the options you suggested, I'd love Abreu, but he's got a no-trade clause. So my choices would be either Matsui or Giles to DH for the Sox next year.

rbeze09
11-09-2005, 06:35 PM
While I don't want Sosa anywhere near this team, I always liked your willingness to consider all options and also your ability to think outside the box. So let me bounce this option off of you:

Sox sign Rafael Furcal, move Uribe to SS and Iguchi to DH.

Ozzie has stated he wants more speed next year. He has also repeatedly stated that he would like to bat Iguchi in the middle of the lineup. Iguchi seems to want this also.

Furcal allows Ozzie to accomplish these things while losing little if any defense at SS plus improving the defense at 2B while saving Iguchi's legs. Also it gives the Sox depth in the event Crede's back goes out, Uribe gets hurt, or if Pods goes down they still have a legitimate leadoff hitter.

The lineup:
Pods LF
Furcal SS
Iguchi DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B
Uribe SS

Again, this is only suggested as an option. I got skewered by someone on another thread for even suggesting this as a possibility, but I'm interested in your take on it, as well as anyone else who can discuss it rationally.

Edit: Out of the options you suggested, I'd love Abreu, but he's got a no-trade clause. So my choices would be either Matsui or Giles to DH for the Sox next year.

You have 2 shortstops and no 2nd baseman..how do u plan on doing this...does uribe just stand in short leftcenter in case the ball goes through his legs...lol jk...i still dont understand who u would put at 2nd..uribe has proved himself as a pretty damn good shortstop...i think the sox should keep the infield together and possibly just go after another bat or utility man..i love the team they have...if i was gonna unload one of the outfielders id probably get rid of rowand...not that i think hes a bad player (even tho he took the gas in the playoffs) but i think hes got tremendous potential and i think teams are willing to give up good players to acquire him...i also think he'll be tough to sing in the future

Canadian_SoxFan
11-09-2005, 06:43 PM
I also have nothing against Overbay, but I seriously doubt the Sox can pry him away from the Brewers. The Brewers finally made .500 this season and they have an exciting team, which I see a few times a year (my young nephews reside in Milwaukee.) Overbay is good, not great, but needed in Milwaukee's lineup. He's not a problem child and the Sox would have to cough up full value for him. The Brewers have Prince Fielder coming up, so they will most likely be looking to trade Overbay.

gr8mexico
11-09-2005, 07:34 PM
The Sox should try to get the Phillies to trade them Bobby Abreu (L) and let Paulie go.Move Dye to 1st base .Bringing in Abreu would bring in alot more speed and Ozzie would love to have his good friend here.Then sign Thomas to DH and see what else he has left if not let Brian Anderson DH.

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 07:52 PM
While I don't want Sosa anywhere near this team, I always liked your willingness to consider all options and also your ability to think outside the box. So let me bounce this option off of you:

Sox sign Rafael Furcal, move Uribe to 2B and Iguchi to DH.

Ozzie has stated he wants more speed next year. He has also repeatedly stated that he would like to bat Iguchi in the middle of the lineup. Iguchi seems to want this also.

Furcal allows Ozzie to accomplish these things while losing little if any defense at SS plus improving the defense at 2B while saving Iguchi's legs. Also it gives the Sox depth in the event Crede's back goes out, Uribe gets hurt, or if Pods goes down they still have a legitimate leadoff hitter.

The lineup:
Pods LF
Furcal SS
Iguchi DH
Konerko 1B
Dye RF
Rowand CF
Pierzynski C
Crede 3B
Uribe 2B

Again, this is only suggested as an option. I got skewered by someone on another thread for even suggesting this as a possibility, but I'm interested in your take on it, as well as anyone else who can discuss it rationally.

Edit: Out of the options you suggested, I'd love Abreu, but he's got a no-trade clause. So my choices would be either Matsui or Giles to DH for the Sox next year.

Yeah, lol. It looks like it can get a little rougher here, but at least the conversations are more baseball oriented and have some interesting and different takes on the Sox.

My thought with Furcal is that the Sox already have Uribe for two years, he´s much cheaper and younger and will hit for more power. I do not see Furcal as the right addition at this time...and Uribe is probably better defensively to boot.

I think Uribe and Iguchi are a very sound, fundamental combination up the middle. Both Uribe and Furcal have among the strongest arms in the game, but I do not see the need to break up what already worked (see the deal for Clayton to take over SS in 2001) okay for the Sox and change things, especially when Furcal would prevent us from getting the 2-3 hitter we need.

I am not sure if I am more sold on Iguchi as a 3 hitter or a 5. Theoretically, this should be your best hitter...although that obviously was not always the case this year with the Sox and that spot. I also am not so sure that Iguchi won´t be able to increase his stamina to play more games this season...and he might have to, with Harris probably traded.

Rowand of 2004 COULD be that 3 hitter too...but he strikes out way too much for a 3, and so did Iguchi down the stretch. How much was tiring out and how much was adjustments from scouting reports, we will have to see this year.

If we were to go with the speed outfield, Juan Pierre would be a better fit IMIO. You would have to deal Rowand. We also have the potential 30-30 players in Chris Young and Anderson (probably more like 20 homers and 15 SB´s).

Like you said, you always have to think of new and creative solutions when you are the Sox GM. KW definitely thought outside the box last year and was skewered in the preseason predictions. While I doubt we will see a Sosa, Bernie Williams or Tino Martinez in Chicago, crazier things have happened....like acquiring Cory Snyder and Steve Alto Sax, lol.

DickAllen72
11-09-2005, 08:34 PM
I think Uribe and Iguchi are a very sound, fundamental combination up the middle. Both Uribe and Furcal have among the strongest arms in the game, but I do not see the need to break up what already worked (see the deal for Clayton to take over SS in 2001) okay for the Sox and change things, especially when Furcal would prevent us from getting the 2-3 hitter we need.



My only concern about Iguchi is his ability (or lack thereof) to protect himself when turning a double play. He doesn't seem to get out of the way and I'm concerned that one day he's going to sustain a bad leg/knee injury. But on the whole the Uribe/Iguchi combo has been very solid.

If the Sox can't find a reasonable improvement for the DH position, I would be happy if they signed Carl back at say, $2.5M.

gr8mexico
11-09-2005, 08:38 PM
NO CARL!!!. I think Brian Anderson might be able to do a better job My only concern about Iguchi is his ability (or lack thereof) to protect himself when turning a double play. He doesn't seem to get out of the way and I'm concerned that one day he's going to sustain a bad leg/knee injury. But on the whole the Uribe/Iguchi combo has been very solid.

If the Sox can't find a reasonable improvement for the DH position, I would be happy if they signed Carl back at say, $2.5M.

bobowhite
11-10-2005, 09:22 AM
Examples of KW taking a flyer on one more ¨big season¨ left in them veterans....

David Wells
Todd Ritchie (although more of a case of hoping he would step it up, he was mediocre before and certainly not a star in any stretch of the imagination)
Everett
Roberto Alomar
Kenny Lofton
Billy Koch (he thought he was going to get his fastball back, obviously wrong)
Cal Eldred
Alan Embree
Sandy Alomar
Herb Perry
Harold Baines
Jose Canseco
Tom Gordon
Esteban Loaiza
Scott Sullivan
Brian Daubach
Armando Rios


All of these were before Ozzie came. As for these being 'flyers' I wouldn't call any of these that. Possibly Baines, but that'd be a special case. Possibly Canseco, but the Sox got exactly what they wanted out of Canseco. Look, if you just didn't do much in baseball give it up. KW and especially Ozzie are not gamblers. They both know what can be fixed and what they can use. Everybody knew that Uribe had great talent, just that he had trouble adapting. Getting Vizcaino and Perez were the two biggest factors in settling him down IIRC one is his neighbor and they all come from Dani, DR.

The Sox seem to specialize in miss-used and maladjusted players. Fitting into that category are:
Roberto Alomar
Gordon
Lofton
Everett
Loaiza
Ritchie (Cooper thought he could teach him a better change-up and get Ritchie changing speeds better. It didn't work.)
Perry

David Wells was a prime-time guy when he was picked up. So was Billy Koch.
Neither worked out for the Sox.

Seriously, if you think there is this much 'chance' involved in baseball then I'd love to play poker against you. But bring your money cause I'd be going home with all of it.

caulfield12
11-10-2005, 09:42 AM
All of these were before Ozzie came. As for these being 'flyers' I wouldn't call any of these that. Possibly Baines, but that'd be a special case. Possibly Canseco, but the Sox got exactly what they wanted out of Canseco. Look, if you just didn't do much in baseball give it up. KW and especially Ozzie are not gamblers. They both know what can be fixed and what they can use. Everybody knew that Uribe had great talent, just that he had trouble adapting. Getting Vizcaino and Perez were the two biggest factors in settling him down IIRC one is his neighbor and they all come from Dani, DR.

The Sox seem to specialize in miss-used and maladjusted players. Fitting into that category are:
Roberto Alomar...
Gordon
Lofton...
Everett...
Loaiza
Ritchie (Cooper thought he could teach him a better change-up and get Ritchie changing speeds better. It didn't work.)
Perry

David Wells was a prime-time guy when he was picked up. So was Billy Koch.
Neither worked out for the Sox.

Seriously, if you think there is this much 'chance' involved in baseball then I'd love to play poker against you. But bring your money cause I'd be going home with all of it.

For Alomar, Lofton, Everett, Loaiza, Perry and Wells, it looked to many in baseball as if it would be their last so-called chance when they signed with he White Sox. We can debate Wells, because he was given a $8.5 or $9.5 million dollar contract, so he was expected to produce, but he was getting up there in years and they obviously did not have great faith in his future or they would have given him more than a one year deal.

Billy Koch had been a stud, but everyone in baseball was concerned about his diminished velocity and overuse in Oakland, especially his playoff disaster. KW rolled the dice that he would get it back, and turned out to be wrong. This mistake, moreso than anything else with the exception of not signing Kenny Rogers for the 5th starter´s role at $2-3 million, KILLED the White Sox in 2003, along with Manuel.

Chance is relying on DAngelo Jimenez or Julio Ramirez as a starter. They are calculated risks based more on potential than reality. The White Sox GM has had to make a ton of them, because of the limited budget situation.

You cannot tell me that Iguchi, who KW never saw in person and who received no other offers....AJ....Everett....Hermanson....Dye...El Duque...and Pods were all sure things coming out of the 2004 season? Each one of them had major question marks that allowed the White Sox to sign or deal for them on the cheap. And if you think that KW knew each move would work like a charm, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

2005 was the confluence of every possible break going our way with health and players performing, with the exception of the Frank Thomas injury.