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Stoky44
11-04-2005, 11:46 AM
according to ESPN 11:40 update, Sox looking to have a starting offer of $50mil over 4 years. This is a starting offer, I have a feeling they're going to have to at least give 5 years at $13 mil, but this is a good start.

WestSox
11-04-2005, 11:50 AM
That's not exactly low-balling him, but he'll definitely want 5 years.

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 11:56 AM
That is essentially Richie Sexson´s deal, right? I can´t help but think it will reach the $13-14 million range, but it seems like we will make a fair offer (hopefully with the money not deferred over a decade)...and Paulie will choose $2 million more per season with a team like the Angels, Red Sox, Mets, Yankees, Dodgers, DBacks, Padres, Orioles....well, then it will be on him for leaving. He needs to consider that the endorsement possibilities and adoration won´t be the same....more pressure, think Edgar Renteria for Boston this season. And he doesn´t do well when he puts too much pressure on himself...in Chicago, he has a ¨free ride¨ for a year or two because of this postseason.

Also, the Angels have Kendry Morales for 1B, along with Kotchmann and McPherson they have to fit into the line-up. Will they move Erstad back to CF and ditch Finley? If they get Manny Ramirez, then all bets are off with Konerko and the White Sox would definitely be the favorite to sign him.

Unregistered
11-04-2005, 12:02 PM
in Chicago, he has a ¨free ride¨ for a year or two because of this postseason.
I'm not sure how much of a "free ride" he's gonna have with the team or the fans if he's making $14 million a year and has 1 or 2 crappy years in a row.

alohafri
11-04-2005, 12:04 PM
He needs to consider that the endorsement possibilities and adoration won´t be the same.....

Paulie isn't exactly a marquee name who would hit home runs with ARod and Vlad for Pepsi, but I could definitely see him doing a bunch of regional/local ads which could add up.

DenverSock
11-04-2005, 12:07 PM
Paulie isn't exactly a marquee name who would hit home runs with ARod and Vlad for Pepsi, but I could definitely see him doing a bunch of regional/local ads which could add up.

I hate to say it but local ads pay a lot more in SoCal.

UofCSoxFan
11-04-2005, 12:11 PM
And why exactly would he get those adds? In SoCal he is second fiddle to VLAD no matter what happens.....I would imagine Colon would be in front of him too.

Here who does he have in front of him? MAYBE Ozzie. Konerko has done nothing in LAA and definitely does not have the same marketability there as he does here.

steff
11-04-2005, 12:17 PM
Paulie isn't exactly a marquee name who would hit home runs with ARod and Vlad for Pepsi, but I could definitely see him doing a bunch of regional/local ads which could add up.


The Hair Club for Men baaabee.. :wink:

Brian26
11-04-2005, 12:18 PM
according to ESPN 11:40 update, Sox looking to have a starting offer of $50mil over 4 years. This is a starting offer, I have a feeling they're going to have to at least give 5 years at $13 mil, but this is a good start.

I just hope the Angels don't win this bidding war like they did with Colon two years ago.

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 12:20 PM
In Anaheim, Francisco Rodriguez, Vladimir, G.Anderson and Colon are definitely big names. Then you have Kendry Morales, who is the most hyped prospect in that system in a decade, the Cuban defector. Lots of competition...here in Chicago, he could be like Mike Sweeney or Jeter. There, just another name on the line-up chart, like Boston or New York.

Hangar18
11-04-2005, 12:28 PM
according to ESPN 11:40 update, Sox looking to have a starting offer of $50mil over 4 years. This is a starting offer, I have a feeling they're going to have to at least give 5 years at $13 mil, but this is a good start.


This is a start. This is a very decent offer. Had it come last year. I hope the SOX arent throwing this out there, knowing he wont call Jerrys bluff, just so that they can say "well, we tried". They should never have entered the season without an offer to him. I really really really hope that Paul is serious about staying, and isnt looking for his big payday. If he leaves, I actually wont be mad, because the SOX gambled (like they always do) that he would have a bad year and could let him walk. its the difference from $48 Million (then) and $60 Million (now) .........

A healthy and cheaper #3 hitter Frank Thomas, combined with #4 Paul Konerko will make us the team to beat in the division. Putting Dye in the #6 hole will only make him much more comfortable .....and is a very good lineup.
Call the Bluff Paulie and Stay, we need you

34 Inch Stick
11-04-2005, 12:30 PM
When this is all over I'd like to hear KW thought on how the Maggs negotiations last year influenced the way these negotiations worked. It would be interesting to hear the lessons that were learned and how they were implemented.

Coolpapa
11-04-2005, 12:32 PM
If he doesn't re-sign we move on like so many times before...............

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 12:39 PM
You cannot really blame KW. It would have put the organization in a terrible hole to take that risk in a long-term deal. The odds were 75-25 (based on his previous three inconsistent years) that he would have a season like this one, especially the postseason. Most Sox fans would have thought a deal like this was insane based on the fact many of us complained about the lack of flexibility his last deal gave the Sox.

If Konerko tanked, we would have been stuck with a huge contract, a ¨slow¨ player who didn´t seem to fit with Ozzie ball, a lack of payroll flexibility...we would have locked cheaper ¨next generation¨ players like Rogowski, Gload, Sweeney and Fields out of potential playing time on a potential rebuilding team if KW´s strategy did not work and he was fired.

WestSox
11-04-2005, 12:42 PM
I hate to say it but local ads pay a lot more in SoCal.

Paulie's a local hero in Chicago right now. He didn't help any SoCal teams win the WS, so I don't see how he'd get more money there.

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 12:43 PM
See...

McDowell
Ventura
Durham
Foulke
Ordonez
Lee
Valentin
Baldwin (although he was injured already)
Roberto Hernandez
Wilson Alvarez

richb2
11-04-2005, 12:44 PM
Out here in san jose california paulies agent was in the newspaper today saying that the angels had called him and they were strongly interested but made no offers-was just a friendly call right lol. He did say that paulie was looking for 55-60 million -no trade options and that it had to be a five year deal. If it stays in that range then I think the sox could get him-no more than 65 million however-wonder if the 5 year thing will be a sticking point with the sox?

Randar68
11-04-2005, 12:44 PM
See...

McDowell
Ventura
Durham
Foulke
Ordonez
Lee
Valentin
Baldwin (although he was injured already)
Roberto Hernandez
Wilson Alvarez

You might want to try quoting someone instead of replying willy-nilly. I have no clue who the hell you're trying to respond to, but about half of your list left for reasons different than the other half.

Palehose13
11-04-2005, 12:45 PM
This is a start. This is a very decent offer. Had it come last year. I hope the SOX arent throwing this out there, knowing he wont call Jerrys bluff, just so that they can say "well, we tried". They should never have entered the season without an offer to him. I really really really hope that Paul is serious about staying, and isnt looking for his big payday. If he leaves, I actually wont be mad, because the SOX gambled (like they always do) that he would have a bad year and could let him walk. its the difference from $48 Million (then) and $60 Million (now) .........

A healthy and cheaper #3 hitter Frank Thomas, combined with #4 Paul Konerko will make us the team to beat in the division. Putting Dye in the #6 hole will only make him much more comfortable .....and is a very good lineup.
Call the Bluff Paulie and Stay, we need you

Henry,

Paul has been consistently inconsistent his whole career and I don't blame the front office for waiting to see how he would perform this year before making an offer. Were they gambling? Absolutely. That's the way it goes sometimes. Now they are going to have to pay up if they want to keep him.

Before anyone starts the "going cheap" bit, remember that the Sox had a 75 million dollar payroll whihc was 13th in baseball. Imagine being a fan of Tampa, KC, Pitt, or Milwaukee: their payrolls were under 40 mil :o:

Randar68
11-04-2005, 12:46 PM
Out here in san jose california paulies agent was in the newspaper today saying that the angels had called him and they were strongly interested but made no offers-was just a friendly call right lol. He did say that paulie was looking for 55-60 million -no trade options and that it had to be a five year deal. If it stays in that range then I think the sox could get him-no more than 65 million however-wonder if the 5 year thing will be a sticking point with the sox?

5/60 would be decent. I personally wouldn't go much higher than that, MAYBE 5/65. I think Konerko is far more replaceable than some others do, but you'd have to have your ducks in a row to not get caught with your pants down.

Hokiesox
11-04-2005, 12:47 PM
This is a start. This is a very decent offer. Had it come last year. I hope the SOX arent throwing this out there, knowing he wont call Jerrys bluff, just so that they can say "well, we tried". They should never have entered the season without an offer to him. I really really really hope that Paul is serious about staying, and isnt looking for his big payday. If he leaves, I actually wont be mad, because the SOX gambled (like they always do) that he would have a bad year and could let him walk. its the difference from $48 Million (then) and $60 Million (now) .........

A healthy and cheaper #3 hitter Frank Thomas, combined with #4 Paul Konerko will make us the team to beat in the division. Putting Dye in the #6 hole will only make him much more comfortable .....and is a very good lineup.
Call the Bluff Paulie and Stay, we need you

Even if he had a deal before the season, he may have held out before next season anyway. I know it's a different sport, but see: Owens, Terrell.

nevr say dye sox
11-04-2005, 12:47 PM
Let me ask a question! With all things being realatively equal maybe a million dollar a year difference, don't you think Paulie would feel more comfortable in Chicago. I mean say he goes to Anaheim, don't you think it would be wierd for him, not seeing A ROW, Joe C, guys he's been with for years. I can't see him being buddies with many guys on the Angels? But I guess you can be friends with anybody for the right money!

TomBradley72
11-04-2005, 12:48 PM
Paulie's a local hero in Chicago right now. He didn't help any SoCal teams win the WS, so I don't see how he'd get more money there.

He'll make $50-60MM over the course of any contract he signs....the side money might be a factor...but he'll be set for life either way. The money will be there...I think it depends on which he values more: stay with WSox his whole career...build off what he's accomplished so far OR sign with a team closer to home w/warmer weather and close Phase 1 of his career. It will come down to where he wants to live/raise his kids more than the money...cause the money will be there either way.

nodiggity59
11-04-2005, 12:52 PM
5/60 would be decent. I personally wouldn't go much higher than that, MAYBE 5/65. I think Konerko is far more replaceable than some others do, but you'd have to have your ducks in a row to not get caught with your pants down.

I agree. There aren't 2 worthwhile FAs to sign to bat 3 and 4 for us. A trade might bring us a better player but that is risky. PK for $65 mil or less is our best bet.

Stoky44
11-04-2005, 12:53 PM
Even if he had a deal before the season, he may have held out before next season anyway. I know it's a different sport, but see: Owens, Terrell.

Get serious. That could be one of the worst insults I have ever heard about PK. :angry: :angry: :angry: PK is far from that type of guy.

Ol' No. 2
11-04-2005, 12:55 PM
Let me ask a question! With all things being realatively equal maybe a million dollar a year difference, don't you think Paulie would feel more comfortable in Chicago. I mean say he goes to Anaheim, don't you think it would be wierd for him, not seeing A ROW, Joe C, guys he's been with for years. I can't see him being buddies with many guys on the Angels? But I guess you can be friends with anybody for the right money!I don't think he's going to make a decision strictly on the basis of dollars unless he gets an offer that absolutely blows the others away. There are lots of other factors, and only he knows how he's going to weigh them all. But he seems to like the team and his overall situation in Chicago. We're just going to have to wait and see.

Ol' No. 2
11-04-2005, 12:56 PM
5/60 would be decent. I personally wouldn't go much higher than that, MAYBE 5/65. I think Konerko is far more replaceable than some others do, but you'd have to have your ducks in a row to not get caught with your pants down.:rolling::rolling::rolling:

maurice
11-04-2005, 03:56 PM
I hope the SOX arent throwing this out there, knowing he wont call Jerrys bluff, just so that they can say "well, we tried"

I think this is pretty close to what will happen, and it won't bother me one bit if KW invests the $12+ mil./year wisely. At this point, KW deserves the benefit of the doubt. I thank my lucky stars every day that Ordonez didn't "call Jerry's bluff."

Tragg
11-04-2005, 04:09 PM
I think this is pretty close to what will happen, and it won't bother me one bit if KW invests the $12+ mil./year wisely. At this point, KW deserves the benefit of the doubt. I thank my lucky stars every day that Ordonez didn't "call Jerry's bluff."

Last year, that made sense because we had several holes to fill. This year our needs are #3 and #4 hitters. Maybe we can find a pair for $12-$15 million, but I don't know who. #4 is really weak either F/A wise or trade wise.
Next year, if I remember correctly, we're going to need a lot of cash for the pitchers.

soxfanreggie
11-04-2005, 04:13 PM
I know TO has a big ego, but he isn't two people Stoky...he just listed TO as it would be in the dictionary.

As for PK...I hope we can land him for 4 years...$48. I think they were talking about an offer like that on the radio.

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 04:13 PM
Last year, that made sense because we had several holes to fill. This year our needs are #3 and #4 hitters. Maybe we can find a pair for $12-$15 million, but I don't know who. #4 is really weak either F/A wise or trade wise.
Next year, if I remember correctly, we're going to need a lot of cash for the pitchers.

Crede is the best in-house option for 4, but not yet.

We have Buehrle through 2007, Garcia through 2007, Contreras through 2006 and Garland is up in the air with arbitration for one year or a 3 year contract extending past his six year organizational rights are up. Somewhere in vicinity of Buehrle´s about $1-2 million behind each year, and lagging one year behind Buehrle´s deal, as he has proved himself for five years, and not just one, like Jon.

Deuce
11-04-2005, 04:14 PM
Crede is the best in-house option for 4, but not yet.
:?:

maurice
11-04-2005, 04:16 PM
Last year, that made sense because we had several holes to fill. Maybe we can find a pair for $12-$15 million, but I don't know who.

I understand, but if it comes down to Konerko for 5+ years / $13+ mil. each or the remainder of Delgado's deal, then I want Delgado.
Spend whatever is left over on the best DH you can afford.

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 04:19 PM
Who is the best option to hit in the clean-up spot in our entire system?

Joe Borchard?
Aaron Rowand?
AJ Pierzynski?
Ryan Sweeney?
Brian Anderson?
Ross Gload?
Casey Rogowski?

It probably is Chris Young, and, of course, Frank Thomas.

But if you have any answers, I would love to hear who you think should hit number four that the White Sox curently have under contract, or are negotiating with, excepting Konerko.

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 04:23 PM
I understand, but if it comes down to Konerko for 5+ years / $13+ mil. each or the remainder of Delgado's deal, then I want Delgado.
Spend whatever is left over on the best DH you can afford.

$13.5 million in 2006, $14.5 million in 2007 and $16 million in 2008, according to terms obtained by the AP. The agreement includes a $16 million option for 2009 that would become guaranteed based on how Delgado does in MVP voting and whether he earns postseason MVP awards.

That´s a lot of money to gamble on a 33 year old hitter, when Konerko would make less or the same amount of money and is only 29 and is the heart and soul of this organization. The only big advantage he brings is being LH.

But I would rather have someone like Cliff Floyd who has identified with the White Sox his entire life...

SOXSINCE'70
11-04-2005, 04:26 PM
Konerko might sign a 3 year deal with multiple option years.
Then again,the sun may rise in the West and set in the East.:D:

jabrch
11-04-2005, 04:41 PM
I'm not sure how much of a "free ride" he's gonna have with the team or the fans if he's making $14 million a year and has 1 or 2 crappy years in a row.

1 or 2 YEARS? How about 1 or 2 crappy weeks in a row...someone will start bitching - that's just nature.

DickAllen72
11-04-2005, 04:47 PM
-

Hey, Caulfield12, I'm glad to see you over here now. The whitesox.com board sucks. I usually read your posts there, but I don't bother to post there anymore.

Welcome! :cheers:

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 04:54 PM
There are too many trolls and bandwagoners over there...too much Cubs talk.

I am in Colombia, South America, right now...having a ball and really enjoying this World Series win. Ironic that I had to leave the country for it to happen.

maurice
11-04-2005, 04:55 PM
$13.5 million in 2006, $14.5 million in 2007 and $16 million in 2008, according to terms obtained by the AP. The agreement includes a $16 million option for 2009 that would become guaranteed based on how Delgado does in MVP voting and whether he earns postseason MVP awards.

And worth every dime if he puts up MVP numbers, something Konerko has never done. Signficantly, the deal pays $0 in 2009, $0 in 2010, and $0 in 2011 if he doesn't put up MVP numbers. Can't say that about the deal Konerko's gonna get.

That´s a lot of money to gamble on a 33 year old hitter, when Konerko would make less or the same amount of money and is only 29 and is the heart and soul of this organization. The only big advantage he brings is being LH.

On opening day 2006, Konerko will be 30 and Delgado will be 33. The age difference is offset by the relative contract length. The "less or same" money is offset by the fact that Delgado is a better hitter than Konerko and also bats lefthanded. The "heart and soul" thing is horse ****.

I would rather have someone like Cliff Floyd who has identified with the White Sox his entire life...
:tealpolice:

doctorlecter
11-04-2005, 05:00 PM
For any of you that think that Paulie's endorsement deals would be better ANYWHERE else, think about this: 1985 Bears. Those guys are STILL making a really good living from endorsement deals.

Mr. White Sox
11-04-2005, 05:02 PM
And worth every dime if he puts up MVP numbers, something Konerko has never done. Signficantly, the deal pays $0 in 2009, $0 in 2010, and $0 in 2011 if he doesn't put up MVP numbers. Can't say that about the deal Konerko's gonna get.



On opening day 2006, Konerko will be 30 and Delgado will be 33. The age difference is offset by the relative contract length. The "less or same" money is offset by the fact that Delgado is a better hitter than Konerko and also bats lefthanded. The "heart and soul" thing is horse ****.


Wow, I couldn't agree more. Konerko's deal would scare me a bit at five years, but unfortunately it looks like that will be the standard. Something like 4/$50 is far more manageable, but it looks like PK wants the years and the no-trade clause, making this a difficult process. Delgado's contract is better than PK's for the reasons you stated above.

QUESTION: I don't really remember the Bartolo Colon "bidding war" with Anaheim. What did we offer? What did they offer?

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 05:03 PM
And worth every dime if he puts up MVP numbers, something Konerko has never done. Signficantly, the deal pays $0 in 2009, $0 in 2010, and $0 in 2011 if he doesn't put up MVP numbers. Can't say that about the deal Konerko's gonna get.



On opening day 2006, Konerko will be 30 and Delgado will be 33. The age difference is offset by the relative contract length. The "less or same" money is offset by the fact that Delgado is a better hitter than Konerko and also bats lefthanded. The "heart and soul" thing is horse ****.


:tealpolice:



Besides Barry Bonds and those others accused of using steroids in the last decade, how many major league hitters have improved between the ages of 33 and 37?

Unregistered
11-04-2005, 05:05 PM
1 or 2 YEARS? How about 1 or 2 crappy weeks in a row...someone will start bitching - that's just nature.Right, but I'm talking about how long it will take before he officially becomes a "bust." (Griffey Jr., Darren Daulten, Pat Burrell) If PK hits .240 with 30 HR and 89RBI next year for $15 mil/year, no one's gonna say "Well, he did help win a World Series last year," whether he's in Chicago, LA or Tokyo....

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 05:14 PM
However, he reportedly is not counting Boston out of the hunt just yet. "Paul lives in Arizona and probably would prefer something near there but he wants to play on a good, contending team, for a manager he likes and in a city he likes, plus he wants a deal for as much length as possible, like five, six or seven years," agent Craig Landis told the Boston Herald recently. "So the Red Sox are not out of it at all, in my opinion." However, the Daily Southtown reported last week that according to one White Sox player, Konerko has told several teammates he has no desire to play for Boston.

Apparently, the Twins are really going after Jim Thome and Bill Mueller, hard. Guess they weren´t happy with Matt LeCroy, Lew Ford and Michael Cuddyer, lol.

maurice
11-04-2005, 05:16 PM
Besides Barry Bonds and those others accused of using steroids in the last decade, how many major league hitters have improved between the ages of 33 and 37?

Delgado doesn't have to improve. He's already better than Konerko and has been for a long time. Imagine what he could do playing half of his games at Coors East.

Tragg
11-04-2005, 05:21 PM
I understand, but if it comes down to Konerko for 5+ years / $13+ mil. each or the remainder of Delgado's deal, then I want Delgado.
Spend whatever is left over on the best DH you can afford.

We have to give up players for Delgado, too.
I remember I was in sharp minority on this board when I cautioned against giving up our top minor leaguers to fill a position that wasn't a weakness and with a dubious player- AJ Burnett, last July. Delgado isn't dubious and we need the position, but we'll have to give up talent.
I agree with you - it's the 5 years that bothers me the most.
I don't get the love affair with Helton either - his power numbers have been consistently dropping, he's getting up in age, he makes a ton of money and his numbers have been earned in Colorado.
Speaking of Burnett, I wonder what he'll command on the market.

gogochisox1917
11-04-2005, 05:27 PM
The Hair Club for Men baaabee.. :wink:
:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 05:28 PM
We have to give up players for Delgado, too.
I remember I was in sharp minority on this board when I cautioned against giving up our top minor leaguers to fill a position that wasn't a weakness and with a dubious player- AJ Burnett, last July. Delgado isn't dubious and we need the position, but we'll have to give up talent.
I agree with you - it's the 5 years that bothers me the most.
I don't get the love affair with Helton either - his power numbers have been consistently dropping, he's getting up in age, he makes a ton of money and his numbers have been earned in Colorado.
Speaking of Burnett, I wonder what he'll command on the market.

Some dumb team that doesn´t look at his career win-loss percentage, injury history, personality issues (think Jeff Weaver, only flakier) and falls in loves with radar gun readings and scouting reports will give him $10-12 million per season for 3-5 years. It never fails. We just know it won´t be the White Sox falling for the bait.

RoundingThird
11-04-2005, 05:28 PM
I'm having similar thoughts about Konerko that I was having about Eddy Curry. Paulie is a good #4 hitter and his production is needed, but I hate the idea of giving him a 5-year contract. Granted, Paulie has a much better work ethic than Curry, but the long-term, expensive contract could burn the Sox.

It's a shame there's no other player available who would produce similar numbers but cost much less. Being a GM is tough.

I'd like a safe, 4-year, $48 million deal for Paulie, or for an MLB-ready 1B prospect to blossom overnight, but neither looks likely.

Too bad our hitting coach isn't as talented and intelligent as our pitching coach, otherwise Casey Rogowski would be the answer.

knocko94
11-04-2005, 05:29 PM
Delgado's contract is going through the roof after this year. He signed a 4-52 with the marlins. He made 4.5 million last year. He's in for some huge raises (I believe he'll make nearly 14 million next year) and the Marlins are cheap as hell. The quality of the players needed to get him is related to the amount of cash the Marlins need to send in the deal.

hold2dibber
11-04-2005, 05:30 PM
Apparently, the Twins are really going after Jim Thome and Bill Mueller, hard. Guess they weren´t happy with Matt LeCroy, Lew Ford and Michael Cuddyer, lol.

If Konerko leaves, Thome would be an interesting target to replace him. I'm sure Philadelphia is highly motivated to move him - the question is, are they motivated enough to eat the lion's share of that contract.

Unregistered
11-04-2005, 05:33 PM
Some dumb team that doesn´t look at his career win-loss percentage, injury history, personality issues (think Jeff Weaver, only flakier) and falls in loves with radar gun readings and scouting reports will give him $10-12 million per season for 3-5 years.http://espn-att.starwave.com/i/magazine/new/041122_steinbrenner.jpg
"Sold!!"

RoundingThird
11-04-2005, 05:34 PM
If Konerko leaves, Thome would be an interesting target to replace him. I'm sure Philadelphia is highly motivated to move him - the question is, are they motivated enough to eat the lion's share of that contract.

If Konerko were to leave, give me Thome before Delgado.

caulfield12
11-04-2005, 05:34 PM
To cancel out the the money, we would need to give up Marte or Vizcaino, El Duque and maybe Willie Harris.

If you start asking for something in return of significance (which would be them eating much of the contract with no equivalent add ons to their payroll like El Duque and Marte), then you have to give up up Rowand or Brian Anderson undoubtedly.

They really need to decide between Sweeney, Chris Young and Anderson, which one they can most afford to give up to get something of quality back in return.

maurice
11-04-2005, 05:35 PM
We have to give up players for Delgado, too.

Yes, but any major-league players we give up could clear additional salary space to sign an even better DH and maybe a LOOGY. Knowing KW, he's going to trade most of his prospects for veterans anyway. We might as well get an MVP candidate in return.

Speaking of Burnett, I wonder what he'll command on the market.

Good question, especially after several years of teams getting burned by giving big deals to disappointing pitchers. It should be an interesting offseason.

maurice
11-04-2005, 05:37 PM
If you start asking for something in return of significance (which would be them eating much of the contract with no equivalent add ons to their payroll like El Duque and Marte), then you have to give up up Rowand or Brian Anderson undoubtedly.

We've been discussing this possibility for some time now.

Many posters think it's unlikely that KW will keep both of them.

Unregistered
11-04-2005, 05:39 PM
If Konerko were to leave, give me Thome before Delgado.Makes perfect sense! Yeah, give me the guy who hit .207 with 7HR in 200 ABs because of a lingering injury over the guy who hit .301 with 33HR and 115RBIs and even 3 TRIPLES (better numbers than Konerko if you factor in the fact that he didn't play 81 games at the Cell...) :rolleyes:

This isn't 1998, RoundingThird - Thome isn't what he used to be. Getting Delgado would arguably be an upgrade over Konerko.

A. Cavatica
11-04-2005, 07:15 PM
Wow, already offering $12.5M/per for PK. I may be in the minority, but I think that may be more than he's worth. Factor in the "World Series hero" thing and I suppose you can overpay a little, but considering Paul's whole career, I don't see him as a $12.5M/year player.

Let's hope he takes it or that the teams willing to pay more find other options.

If the price will be $13M, or $14M, or (heaven forbid) $15M a year then he's just as expensive as Helton or Delgado, who are better hitters, and lefthanded to boot.

THE_HOOTER
11-04-2005, 07:53 PM
I believe the WhiteSox need to watch the sentimental value of PK and make sure they remember that pitching and defense is our key.

I wouldnt give him more than 4 years---they dont have the funds to support it.

Deadguy
11-04-2005, 09:06 PM
The Hair Club for Men baaabee.. :wink:

As the "Before" actor? :tongue:

MadetoOrta
11-04-2005, 11:06 PM
Delgado's contract is going through the roof after this year. He signed a 4-52 with the marlins. He made 4.5 million last year. He's in for some huge raises (I believe he'll make nearly 14 million next year) and the Marlins are cheap as hell. The quality of the players needed to get him is related to the amount of cash the Marlins need to send in the deal.

The Marlins want to dump his contract and I'll take Delgado at $14 million over Konerko. I don't see it costing us Chris Young and Ryan Sweeney.

Realist
11-05-2005, 08:19 AM
The Sox opening offer is a huge statement and a beautiful opening salvo. Those numbers are nothing to sneeze at and Konerko and his agent are going to feel the respect and probably get a little warm and tingly.

This drama is far from over, but you gotta love how the Sox came out of the gate.

giddyup.

MrRoboto83
11-05-2005, 08:35 AM
The Sox opening offer is a huge statement and a beautiful opening salvo. Those numbers are nothing to sneeze at and Konerko and his agent are going to feel the respect and probably get a little warm and tingly.

This drama is far from over, but you gotta love how the Sox came out of the gate.

giddyup.

I agree, this makes me think that PK will be back in a Sox uni next season.

rmusacch
11-05-2005, 10:46 AM
This is a start. This is a very decent offer. Had it come last year. I hope the SOX arent throwing this out there, knowing he wont call Jerrys bluff, just so that they can say "well, we tried". They should never have entered the season without an offer to him. I really really really hope that Paul is serious about staying, and isnt looking for his big payday. If he leaves, I actually wont be mad, because the SOX gambled (like they always do) that he would have a bad year and could let him walk. its the difference from $48 Million (then) and $60 Million (now) .........

A healthy and cheaper #3 hitter Frank Thomas, combined with #4 Paul Konerko will make us the team to beat in the division. Putting Dye in the #6 hole will only make him much more comfortable .....and is a very good lineup.
Call the Bluff Paulie and Stay, we need you

Henry, while I hope your scenario is right, I don't think Frank will be healthy all next season. I hate to say it but I think he is done for his career.

JimH
11-05-2005, 10:52 AM
Too bad our hitting coach isn't as talented and intelligent as our pitching coach, otherwise Casey Rogowski would be the answer.

Say what?

If Rogowski had the talent, he'd be in the majors already.

nccwsfan
11-05-2005, 11:08 AM
Wow, already offering $12.5M/per for PK. I may be in the minority, but I think that may be more than he's worth. Factor in the "World Series hero" thing and I suppose you can overpay a little, but considering Paul's whole career, I don't see him as a $12.5M/year player.

A great argument, unfortunately you just know that there will be a team out there throwing money at PK. LAA, Boston, NYY, maybe even us, but Konerko will be making more than $12.5mil per year. It's going to come down to who gives him the most years...

flo-B-flo
11-05-2005, 02:12 PM
The Sox opening offer is a huge statement and a beautiful opening salvo. Those numbers are nothing to sneeze at and Konerko and his agent are going to feel the respect and probably get a little warm and tingly.

This drama is far from over, but you gotta love how the Sox came out of the gate.

giddyup. I love posts like these. They give me hope. Konerko gotta know he won't be WORSHIPED like he is now. Good move by Riensy and KW.

DSpivack
11-06-2005, 03:52 AM
The American Ideal is not something that is for a select group, but rather for all citizens of the world.

Let's agree to disagree, however, so this isn't a politcal hijack.

I don't want Delgado for baseball reasons.

Politics aside, what are the baseball reasons?

SOXSINCE'70
11-06-2005, 11:12 AM
The Sox opening offer is a huge statement and a beautiful opening salvo. Those numbers are nothing to sneeze at and Konerko and his agent are going to feel the respect and probably get a little warm and tingly.

This drama is far from over, but you gotta love how the Sox came out of the gate.


I just hope people realise that Crede and Garland are FA's
after 2006.I want Konerko signed as much as anyone,but if
this becomes a pissing match,move on,KW.Take the money and
keep the core of this team intact.

Flight #24
11-06-2005, 11:24 AM
I just hope people realise that Crede and Garland are FA's
after 2006.I want Konerko signed as much as anyone,but if
this becomes a pissing match,move on,KW.Take the money and
keep the core of this team intact.

Garland, yes. Crede, no. Crede has IIRC 3 years of service time, he's still got a few years of arbitration during which it's pretty unlikely he's going to REALLY break the bank. In fact, even though his agent's Borass, I'd bet the Sox can sign him to a deal similar to Rowand's or less. His pffensive stats aren't really all that impressive overall - he just had a great run at the end of the year & the postseason.

And because it's arbitration and not FA negotiation, Borass loses the ability to lie, etc.

MadetoOrta
11-06-2005, 11:47 AM
I just hope people realise that Crede and Garland are FA's
after 2006.I want Konerko signed as much as anyone,but if
this becomes a pissing match,move on,KW.Take the money and
keep the core of this team intact.

Extending Garland is huge. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING. Crede? I expect a giant "contract" year from Joe and then ....... HE GONE!!

WestSox
11-06-2005, 11:50 AM
Extending Garland is huge. PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING. Crede? I expect a giant "contract" year from Joe and then ....... HE GONE!!

Agreed. After Contreras' contract is up, the money should be spent on Garland (assuming he doesn't regress). And as long as Boras represents Crede, he won't get a long-term deal with the ChiSox.

CHEESESOXER
11-06-2005, 07:11 PM
I just hope people realise that Crede and Garland are FA's
after 2006.I want Konerko signed as much as anyone,but if
this becomes a pissing match,move on,KW.Take the money and
keep the core of this team intact.


PK is a major part of the "core of the team".

TomBradley72
11-06-2005, 09:35 PM
PK is a major part of the "core of the team".

PK is the "core of the core"....where does the leadership come from if he leaves? AJ offers some. Dye as well in a "Harold Baines" kind of way, I don't see any other position players filling the void. Ozzie said PK was "his leader" all year.

soxfanreggie
11-06-2005, 09:36 PM
If he's looking for $55-60 mil over 50 years and we're willing to start at 4 years $50 million, just say "you want $55 mil...we'll give you $55 million for 5 years" That would mean we're paying $5 million for the 5th year over what we would pay him for 4. However, the Sox could say...5 years $57.5 million with some incentives. Say $100,000 for an All-Star appearance, $100,000 for an ALDS MVP, $150,000 for an ALCS MVP, and $250,000 for WS MVP. Still likely under $60 mil for 5 years...

Also, you could throw in a buyout of the 5th year like Thomas had. Say 5 years $60 million with a 5th year buyout of $5 million. If he has a bad 4th year, we wouldn't have to keep him for a 5th year, but he'd still get around $55 million and be able to sign for less like Frank will hopeuflly do or be free to sign with another team.

If 5 years $55-60 million is what he's looking for and the Sox are offering a pretty good start, I'm pretty positive we'll get this done.

DenverSock
11-06-2005, 09:42 PM
PK is the "core of the core"....where does the leadership come from if he leaves? AJ offers some. Dye as well in a "Harold Baines" kind of way, I don't see any other position players filling the void. Ozzie said PK was "his leader" all year.

I also remember Hawk and DJ talking during one of Paulie's at-bats discussing at first Jason Varitek's captaincy of the Commie Sox and saying he wears the "C" emblem on his uniform, Derek Jeter is captain of the Yankees, doesn't wear a "C" on his shirt and that the Sox don't have a official captain but the man who serves is right here, meaning PK. I think that this is true. No, he's not a first ballot hall-of-famer at present but I do think he's the Heart and Soul of this team, at least the offense. I think if we lose him we lose a least part of a commitee, including AJ, who are the clubhouse leaders.

DenverSock
11-06-2005, 09:46 PM
:offtopic:

Other than what I wrote in my previous post I think the next thing for KW to settle is that status of any pitcher who either could,would or should leave.

Hitmen77
11-07-2005, 08:22 AM
I think the Sox are in a position now where bringing back Paulie is the best business decision for them even if they have to pay him more than he's worth. The reason is that the Sox don't want to risk losing any bounce in season ticket and individual ticket sales that they'll see from the World Series win.

Of course, they'll get a nice bounce no matter what happens with Konerko, but I have to think that losing him is going to cost them some of that ticket sales momentum and they have to factor that in when they are deciding how much they are willing to offer him. In other words, do they refuse to offer him the extra million needed to keep him only to lose about a million dollars in lost revenue by having some of the steam taken out of their surging fan interest?

Now, that's not to say that there isn't a limit to the amount that the Sox should pay PK. If he and his agent come up with some ridiculously high offer from another team, then there is a point where it doesn't make sense to break the bank for him.

DenverSock
11-07-2005, 08:31 AM
I think the Sox are in a position now where bringing back Paulie is the best business decision for them even if they have to pay him more than he's worth. The reason is that the Sox don't want to risk losing any bounce in season ticket and individual ticket sales that they'll see from the World Series win.

Of course, they'll get a nice bounce no matter what happens with Konerko, but I have to think that losing him is going to cost them some of that ticket sales momentum and they have to factor that in when they are deciding how much they are willing to offer him. In other words, do they refuse to offer him the extra million needed to keep him only to lose about a million dollars in lost revenue by having some of the steam taken out of their surging fan interest?

Now, that's not to say that there isn't a limit to the amount that the Sox should pay PK. If he and his agent come up with some ridiculously high offer from another team, then there is a point where it doesn't make sense to break the bank for him.


We have reached a point where everybody is just running around in circles saying the same things over again. This is an unspectacular class of FAs. PK is the clear gem of this class and he isn't A-Rod. Far more importantly there is no way to replace him easily. It's supply and demand. Paulie is the only supply and he can command a premium.

hawkjt
11-07-2005, 03:15 PM
I just wish they would screw the negoiating start low slowly move up approach and give him their best offer right out of the box at 5 yr for 65 million and get it done.

If it goes to the bidding war - sox will lose.

He is continuity,leadership,clutch, and a legacy from the greatest season. YOU do pay him cuz this is a unique off-season.

maurice
11-07-2005, 04:10 PM
Screw "continuity." Konerko is not the "core" or the "heart" of anything. His "leadership" means jack. Pierzynski, Buehrle, and Ozzie will continue to lead this team. Konerko is not particularly "clutch." The season tix are already sold. If they continue to win, the individual-game tix will follow.

You offer him a reasonable contract. If he turns it down, you spend the money elsewhere.

Offering 5 yrs / $65 million today will not get it done. They already said they're going to accept offers from other teams no matter what the Sox do.

DenverSock
11-07-2005, 05:05 PM
Screw "continuity." Konerko is not the "core" or the "heart" of anything. His "leadership" means jack. Pierzynski, Buehrle, and Ozzie will continue to lead this team. Konerko is not particularly "clutch." The season tix are already sold. If they continue to win, the individual-game tix will follow.
I disagree, I think continuity matters a lot. Look at the Yankees and what happenned to them after 2000. Derek Jeter said it best when he said, over and over again, in interviews to the press: "This is not the same team it once was, too many players have changed." I also think that yes, clubhouse leadership matters. I've seen teams held together or torn apart by one player. McGinnins ruined the Nuggets that way, and the Red Sox were better off getting rid of Nomar Garciaparra. I hope keeping the core together means that the Sox could, at least, contend next year. Witness what PK did on the stand at the celebration by giving the ball to JR. Don't forget he said the only way this White Sox could truly get respect was to "do it again." He clearly would like to be back, and be back to a team that is this year's White Sox team. He was willing to say that before negotiations in a public venue. That's leadership. :nod: :nod:

MarySwiss
11-07-2005, 05:30 PM
I disagree, I think continuity matters a lot. Look at the Yankees and what happenned to them after 2000. Derek Jeter said it best when he said, over and over again, in interviews to the press: "This is not the same team it once was, too many players have changed." I also think that yes, clubhouse leadership matters. I've seen teams held together or torn apart by one player. McGinnins ruined the Nuggets that way, and the Red Sox were better off getting rid of Nomar Garciaparra. I hope keeping the core together means that the Sox could, at least, contend next year. Witness what PK did on the stand at the celebration by giving the ball to JR. Don't forget he said the only way this White Sox could truly get respect was to "do it again." He clearly would like to be back, and be back to a team that is this year's White Sox team. He was willing to say that before negotiations in a public venue. That's leadership. :nod: :nod:

Yep. I think you're right, for the reasons you list and for others that have been listed previously. But I also think you were right when you said we're just saying the same things over and over.

I am firmly in the "try your level damndest to keep Paulie" camp. There may be some who are in the "who cares? Let him go" camp, but I would think those are definitely in the minority. And at risk of getting slammed, I'd ask anyone who thinks we should let Paulie walk for anything less than a ridiculous offer just exactly where the hell they were during the season--and especially during the playoffs. IMO, anyone who thinks that Paulie should not be KW's top priority just flat out has not been paying attention to current events.

All this is making me crazy. Paulie has indicated he wants to come back. The Sox have indicated they want him back. GET IT DONE, KENNY! PLEASE!

Deuce
11-07-2005, 06:01 PM
Screw "continuity." Konerko is not the "core" or the "heart" of anything. His "leadership" means jack. Pierzynski, Buehrle, and Ozzie will continue to lead this team. Konerko is not particularly "clutch." The season tix are already sold. If they continue to win, the individual-game tix will follow.

You offer him a reasonable contract. If he turns it down, you spend the money elsewhere.

Offering 5 yrs / $65 million today will not get it done. They already said they're going to accept offers from other teams no matter what the Sox do.

Whatever. This was the same argument you made about Maggs, and look where that got us. :redneck

Deuce

SoxFan64
11-07-2005, 06:04 PM
If Konerko leaves, Thome would be an interesting target to replace him. I'm sure Philadelphia is highly motivated to move him - the question is, are they motivated enough to eat the lion's share of that contract.

I thought the same thing. I want to keep PK but if the price gets too high then KW ans JR need to find better options.

And if Philly is offering $$$ to take Thome, then I say consider it.

The negatives on Thome are he is coming off an injury, he is 3-4 years older than PK and his numbers seem to be declining.

The positives on thome are he could come cheap, he's a lefty, and if he is healthy the acquiring team could be getting a steal.

soxwon
11-07-2005, 07:03 PM
Paulie isn't exactly a marquee name who would hit home runs with ARod and Vlad for Pepsi, but I could definitely see him doing a bunch of regional/local ads which could add up.


Is Steve Dahl a WSI member?

nevr say dye sox
11-08-2005, 12:11 PM
This is only something I was pondering but how about this sceniro. We send McCarthy or Garland and Sweeny to Seattle for Ichiro. Move Dye to first and sign Matsui. For could have the Japanese Connection. It would never happen, but what do you think?:cool: They should send me to Palm Spring for the GM meetings!

Tekijawa
11-08-2005, 12:14 PM
This is only something I was pondering but how about this sceniro. We send McCarthy or Garland and Sweeny to Seattle for Ichiro. Move Dye to first and sign Matsui. For could have the Japanese Connection. It would never happen, but what do you think?:cool: They should send me to Palm Spring for the GM meetings!

I say the keep you in Oakbrook!

hawkjt
11-08-2005, 12:19 PM
I highly doubt that Thome will ever be the same with season ending back injury. Could be a bigger risk than Frank.

The problem with not signing Paul is that it will mean others will need to be traded and it will have the ripple effect of losing additional pitchers from a WS team.

I heard Levine say the sox will only go 4 years so I know he is gone. That sucks.

Hitmen77
11-08-2005, 12:43 PM
I heard Levine say the sox will only go 4 years so I know he is gone. That sucks.

But that is assuming Levine is right.

Rocky Soprano
11-08-2005, 12:44 PM
I heard Levine say the sox will only go 4 years so I know he is gone. That sucks.

And you trust everything that Cub fan says?

I don't remember him EVER being right about anything.

nccwsfan
11-08-2005, 01:58 PM
I've got a question for anyone in the know....would it be possible to defer some of PK's salary? I don't know the WSO's history when it comes to deferred salaries, but if it's minimal couldn't they defer some $$ for this contract? Just a thought...

Stoky44
11-08-2005, 02:25 PM
But that is assuming Levine is right.


And that is a BIG assusmtion! :D:

CPditka
11-08-2005, 02:55 PM
I hope and pray that the White Sox realize that keeping Paulie is not only a baseball decision. There is most definetly a marketing aspect they need to factor in. I understand the people who say we win, and that is our marketing. Well to turn casual Joe into a full fledge Sox fan they need to be able to identify with players in a sport where fans pick their team based more on the picture on the scoreboard than the batting avg below it sadly. People relate to Paulie, he represents the city of Chicago, with his mentality. I know that it has been said that Ozzie is the face of the franchise, well that is good for now, but if a season takes a turn for the worse people are going to look at Oz like Alan Trammel in Detroit. Tigers fans loved A. Trammel, but he was not enough as a loveable ex-player. Fans dont watch what is happening in the dugout, rather who's on first. From a marketing perspective, and the need to grow a fan base to have an actual consistent attendence figure/payroll, we MUST SIGN PAULIE, at the best price possible.

Tragg
11-08-2005, 03:12 PM
I've got a question for anyone in the know....would it be possible to defer some of PK's salary? I don't know the WSO's history when it comes to deferred salaries, but if it's minimal couldn't they defer some $$ for this contract? Just a thought...
I think deferring is the worst choice. We have the available funds now.
The PK risk is that his contract constrains us in the future; deferral worsens that risk.

eriqjaffe
11-08-2005, 03:28 PM
http://www.dallasnews.com/img/photo/08-02/Cruzflip.JPG
"I flip for deferred salaries!"

maurice
11-08-2005, 04:47 PM
I disagree, I think continuity matters a lot. Look at the Yankees and what happenned to them after 2000.

The Yankees suffered from bad management, not lack of continuity. A better example is the 2004-05 White Sox. KW used 50% turnover to turn a mediocre team into WS champs. I trust him to do it again on a much smaller scale. Besides, even if Konerko leaves, you'll still have about 20 returning players. To the extent that continuity, leadership, and the other mushy stuff is relevant, the Sox will have plenty with or without Konerko.

the Red Sox were better off getting rid of Nomar Garciaparra.

And the Sox were better getting rid of Ordonez. There are tons of examples of teams improving by dropping their marquis player. Bill Simmons has an "award" for it.

Don't forget he said the only way this White Sox could truly get respect was to "do it again." He clearly would like to be back, and be back to a team that is this year's White Sox team. He was willing to say that before negotiations in a public venue. That's leadership.

No, that's rhetoric. We'll see what happens if KW offers 4 years / $52 mil. and the Angels offer 5 years / $70 mil. When it comes to true leadership, actions speak louder than words.

maurice
11-08-2005, 04:49 PM
From a marketing perspective, and the need to grow a fan base to have an actual consistent attendence figure/payroll, we MUST SIGN PAULIE, at the best price possible.

Given JR's history, he obviously doesn't agree. If the Sox continue to win the division, the fan base will take care of itself. Besides, anybody who jumps off the championship bandwagon because their favorite player left the team for more money isn't really a Sox fan anyway. We went through the same crap last year with the biggest Ordonez fans. Near as I can tell, all of those folks returned for the playoffs.

MRKARNO
11-08-2005, 04:58 PM
I heard Levine say the sox will only go 4 years so I know he is gone. That sucks.

I really think giving Konerko more than 4 years is a serious mistake, unless there is a club option that does not automatically vest for reaching some goal. If we're going to increase money per year or years, I'd rather increase money per year, but even 12 million is already a lot. Giving him a Sexson-like contract is pushing it, but something that I think would be reasonable, but Konerko in a good year cannot match a lot of the other players who have received these large contracts in the past. The extra year does not seem like a lot now, but it really is a big deal. If Konerko starts to decline in 2008, we'd only be on the hook for one more year instead of two.

DenverSock
11-08-2005, 05:17 PM
The Yankees suffered from bad management, not lack of continuity. A better example is the 2004-05 White Sox. KW used 50% turnover to turn a mediocre team into WS champs. I trust him to do it again on a much smaller scale. Besides, even if Konerko leaves, you'll still have about 20 returning players. To the extent that continuity, leadership, and the other mushy stuff is relevant, the Sox will have plenty with or without Konerko.



And the Sox were better getting rid of Ordonez. There are tons of examples of teams improving by dropping their marquis player. Bill Simmons has an "award" for it.



No, that's rhetoric. We'll see what happens if KW offers 4 years / $52 mil. and the Angels offer 5 years / $70 mil. When it comes to true leadership, actions speak louder than words.


There are several fallacies in your arguments. To wit:

You're just wrong about the Yankees. Bad management was the cause of the lack of continuity.

Yes, the Sox will have about 20 or so returning players but the question remains which ones and what roles do they play? Konerko returning has more of an impact than say Geoff Blum. I've made my thoughts about Konerko's role with the team quite clear. As for what Kenny Williams did with turnover, I don't think you realise that this dovetails with my argument not yours. By getting rid of the dead wood, and replacing it with good people he turned the team around. In other words every piece is important and removing any important piece, especially one with leadership, camaraderie, etc. all that you call "that mushy stuff" is fraught with danger. Getting rid of Ordonez and/or Garciaparra shows what happens when you remove a 'bad apple'. Don't forget both these guys were cancers in the clubhouse. Removing the 'tentpole' should have the opposite effect. It'll be worse for the Sox since they're a finely balanced team. This is even more true with marquee players. (BTW, marquee is a type of sign, Marquis is a British nobleman.)

Since when is rhetoric not part, in fact a major part of leadership?



The two examples of contracts you offer are very different and yes, we would lose Konerko. Is it really worth $2 million/year? This doesn't include ancilliary income available In SoCal which isn't available in Chicago. See my earlier posts. Then add in proximity to family in AZ as well as continuing Spring training there etc. Were I PK I'd take that offer if it came from the Angels. :wink::wink:

longshot7
11-08-2005, 05:39 PM
Getting rid of Ordonez and/or Garciaparra shows what happens when you remove a 'bad apple'. Don't forget both these guys were cancers in the clubhouse.

I'm not part of this argument, but I'd like to point out that Ordonez WAS NOT a cancer in the Sox clubhouse when he was here. It wasn't until afterward that his relationship with them (and us) disintegrated. He was actually, from 97-04, a pretty good teammate.

doublem23
11-08-2005, 05:44 PM
Maybe I don't remember 2004 the same way, but I really don't remember Ordonez's contract talks ever really seeming like a big distraction. They were ongoing, yes, but Magglio was playing fine and the team was winning up until he got hurt. The Sox fell apart in 2004 because of injuries and the fact that every 5th game we were trotting out either Scott Shoeneweis, Felix Diaz, Dan Wright, etc. The **** really hit the fan with Maggs once he signed Satan to be his agent and Williams wouldn't give into his ludicrous demands. If anything, Maggs was more a clubhouse concern in '05 than '04 because some of the animosity that existed during the off-season carried over into this year.

I think the Sox don't win the World Series in '05 with Maggs, not because of him, but because Williams would not have brought in Jermaine Dye, but also because Ordonez's contract probably would have strained the payroll so KW wouldn't have been able to bring in both A.J. Pierzynski and Tadahito Iguchi.

Ordonez was always a solid teammate as far as I remember. He only turned into a douchebag when he started dealing with Boras. What a shock. :rolleyes:

maurice
11-08-2005, 06:11 PM
There are several fallacies in your arguments. To wit: . . . fraught with danger. . . . Marquis is a British nobleman.

*****. You're not impressing anybody with this crap, though it shows why you prefer rhetoric to substance. Your posts are all heat and no light.

You're just wrong about the Yankees. Bad management was the cause of the lack of continuity.

No, bad management is the reason that the Yankees have continuously added expensive players who don't perform. Continuity is irrelevant. Heck, at some point on the time-line, continuity actually will cause a team to lose.

BTW, any given WS champ is unlikely to repeat. In light of this fact, the Yankees actually did very well for themselves.

Yes, the Sox will have about 20 or so returning players but the question remains which ones and what roles do they play? Konerko returning has more of an impact than say Geoff Blum.

Blum probably will be gone also. The players who are staying probably include virtually the entire pitching staff, Pierzynski, Iguchi, Uribe, Podsednik, Dye (the WS MVP), etc. That's plenty of continuity.

As for what Kenny Williams did with turnover, I don't think you realise that this dovetails with my argument not yours.

I don't think you realize what your argument is. You say "continuity is key." I say, "continuity is irrelevant and, in any event, we'll have plenty." I have evidence; you have none.

getting rid of the dead wood . . . . shows what happens when you remove a 'bad apple'.

Carlos Lee is not "dead wood." He's a big bat analogous to Konerko. Ordonez was no more "cancerous" than Konerko. All three are replaceable by a competent GM like KW.

Removing the 'tentpole' should have the opposite effect. It'll be worse for the Sox since they're a finely balanced team.

This is untrue and self-contradictory. First, Konerko is not a "tentpole." Second, a "balanced team" doesn't rely on a tentpole. That's what makes it "balanced." Third, losing Konerko frees up salary to obtain a replacement. Absolutely nothing about Konerko makes him uniquely valuable and irreplaceable. In fact, there are many better players in MLB. Some of them probably will be available this offseason.

Since when is rhetoric not part, in fact a major part of leadership?

Rhetoric has nothing to do with leadership. Rhetoric = bull****. We're talking about a MLB 1B, not Winston Churchill. One of the greatest leaders in NFL history never used rhetoric. He'd tell his team: "Talk is cheap. Let's go win." Professionals lead through example and by refusing to badmouth their teammates.

The two examples of contracts you offer are very different and yes, we would lose Konerko. Is it really worth $2 million/year?

The question is whether it's worth it to him. He's already a millionaire and set for life. You think he talks a great game about coming back, but talk is cheap. Soon it will be time to put his money where his mouth is.

doctorlecter
11-08-2005, 06:21 PM
Is this a guy you back up the Brinks truck to?
Seasonal Averages (6.93 years, based on 162 games/year):
.279 Avg, .349 OBP, 30 HR, 100 RBI, .488 SLG, .837 OPS, 88 K

Or, do you trade for this guy?
Seasonal Averages (9.67 years, based on 162 games/year):
.284 Avg, .393 OBP, 38 HR, 121 RBI, .559 SLG, .952 OPS, 141 K

Or, this guy?
Seasonal Averages (10.73 years, based on 162 games/year):
.281 Avg, .408 OBP, 40 HR, 111 RBI, .562 SLG, .970 OPS, 164 K

These are the stats for Paulie, Delgado, and Thome, in that order. Looking at it objectively, Paulie really isn't in their class. I'm glad that KW and JR made a serious offer to him, but, let's face it, it's not the end of the world if we don't get him signed. Those other guys will cost us money too (maybe not as much if we send them more prospects in return), but on paper, they look like upgrades to me. I know the age factor is there (Paulie - 29, Delgado - 33, Thome - 35), but Thome only has 3 years left on his deal at 46 mil, Delgado, 3 years at 44 mil. Paulie will be wanting five years, but I think that the other two choices give us a better chance to repeat, and offer flexibility in the long run. And just imagine those guys' numbers in the Cell, where, by the way, Paulie has hit 62% of his dingers over the last three years.

Lip Man 1
11-08-2005, 07:27 PM
Thome has had a series of serious injuries the past few years and is no longer reliable.

Lip

Flight #24
11-08-2005, 07:36 PM
And the Sox were better getting rid of Ordonez. There are tons of examples of teams improving by dropping their marquis player. Bill Simmons has an "award" for it.


The Sox didn't improve because they got rid of Maggs & Carlos, they improved because they were able to upgrade from Harris/Davis/Grilli/Borchard to Iguchi/AJ/Duque/Dye.

Losing Konerko isn't going to gain you anything unless you can show that you're going to get some serious improvments in other areas. And that's a lot harder when you're starting with the higher talent base that the Sox are now.

The question is: Delgado and $1-2M/yr or Konerko and McCarthy/Young/Anderson/Rowand? Because I'm not convinced that the Marlins are going to give Carlos away for nothing. As noted by the fact that people are comparing trading for Carlos favorably with resigning Konerko, his contract isn't that onerous. This isn't a Manny Ramirez $20M deal or a Mike Hampton ultra-long for no performance deal. Were Carlos on the market, this is about what he'd get, only for a shorter time.

UofCSoxFan
11-08-2005, 08:02 PM
And just imagine those guys' numbers in the Cell, where, by the way, Paulie has hit 62% of his dingers over the last three years.

So I guess the fact that Paulie is entering his prime the past 3 years is a bad thing? Isn't this all the more reason to sign him? Let's see the stats of those guys over the past 2 or 3 seasons....Thome is a broken down shell of his former self. You could put Hank Aaron's numbers up there and argue over the course of his career he is better than Konerko....we should sign him......and it would be just as crazy as thinking we could get Thome to produce his career averages.

JohnBasedowYoda
11-08-2005, 08:34 PM
The Hair Club for Men baaabee.. :wink:

he's definitely using something on his shiny head. Last year and the year before it was pretty bad, now there's some growth up there

Deuce
11-08-2005, 08:50 PM
The Sox didn't improve because they got rid of Maggs & Carlos, they improved because they were able to upgrade from Harris/Davis/Grilli/Borchard to Iguchi/AJ/Duque/Dye.

And how do you think they were able to make the upgrade? You can't possibly think that these trades and pickups would have occured but for losing Maggs and trading Carlos.

Deuce

Flight #24
11-08-2005, 10:07 PM
And how do you think they were able to make the upgrade? You can't possibly think that these trades and pickups would have occured but for losing Maggs and trading Carlos.

Deuce

You missed my point. Obviously it was the savings from Maggs/Carlos that enabled the upgrades. The point is that it's a lot harder & more expensive to upgrade from Iguchi/AJ/etc, which makes it harder to do while still plugging Paulie's spot with a comparable player.

At some point, you can't upgrade that much by swapping a high salaried guy for a couple of mid-range guys.

koch44
11-08-2005, 10:09 PM
On Sports Nite they said that Kenny told them a deal with Konerko is likely to happen, since Konerko would like to stay in Chicago.

Tragg
11-08-2005, 10:16 PM
You missed my point. Obviously it was the savings from Maggs/Carlos that enabled the upgrades. The point is that it's a lot harder & more expensive to upgrade from Iguchi/AJ/etc, which makes it harder to do while still plugging Paulie's spot with a comparable player.

At some point, you can't upgrade that much by swapping a high salaried guy for a couple of mid-range guys.

Exactly - it's like the NFL draft; you can trade a #1 for 2 #2s; and then trade those 2s for 5 #3s; each trade is a "value" deal, but you end up with 20 fifth round draft choices and a bad team.
Last year we took on the mid-range guys. At pretty much every position, we are no worse than a bit above average. This year we need to upgrade with a stud.
As you said, the problem with Delgado is that he isn't a FA. We have to give up players for him. I have no interest in essentially trading Konerko and Young/McCarthy and Rowand for Delgado.

There are no other 4 hole hitters as free agents other than Konerko. I'm okay trading, say, Rowand for something, but to get a 4 hitter, it will be a lot more than Rowand.
Plus, if we are expanding our payroll, we should be able to sign Konerko AND a 3 like Giles, n'est pas?
The other thing that strikes me is that all of our big 4 pitchers will be FAs soon, I think. That makes mccarthy untouchable in any trade, imo.

Stoky44
11-09-2005, 12:03 AM
This is my first :tomatoaward



:cheers: :bandance: :dtroll: :gulp:

Flight #24
11-09-2005, 12:24 AM
There are no other 4 hole hitters as free agents other than Konerko. I'm okay trading, say, Rowand for something, but to get a 4 hitter, it will be a lot more than Rowand.
Plus, if we are expanding our payroll, we should be able to sign Konerko AND a 3 like Giles, n'est pas?
The other thing that strikes me is that all of our big 4 pitchers will be FAs soon, I think. That makes mccarthy untouchable in any trade, imo.

IMO, the best bet's Thome. He had pretty much the whole year off, which should mean his back's in good shape. His injury was TJ surgery, which has a solid recovery prospect for pitchers and I'd have to assume it's even better for hitters. And he'll come cheap in trade and probably get some cash thrown in. Yes he's a risk, but if it costs anything more than Rowand to get a Delgado (and I think it will), then IMO that's not a great move.

Helton's the other guy, but I'm not sure because unlike Delgado/Thome, that is one massive and long deal. Arguably worse than Manny's.

soxfanreggie
11-09-2005, 01:54 AM
Which is why I spent my last class today thinking up contracts for PK, Frank, Buehrle and Garland. My deal for MB was pretty sweet...either a 4 year extension worth around $10 mil per year with some pretty sweet bonuses for him or a 6 year deal worth about the same per year with the bonuses tacking on to the future year salaries. MB will be 27 next season, why not lock him up for quite a long time :cool: . I know the Sox aren't the biggest on more than 4 year deals, but I think MB is different.

As for Garland...I was figuring somewhere in the neighborhood of a 4 year $30 million deal with some nice incentives for him as well that could make it even more sweet. We have Freddy locked up for another year or two, so it's something to start pondering. JC will show us next season if he can pitch like he did in the second half, which would warrant a nice extension. As for BMAC, we have him locked up for a while, so no need to fret now about a new contract.

Deuce
11-09-2005, 06:43 AM
You missed my point. Obviously it was the savings from Maggs/Carlos that enabled the upgrades. The point is that it's a lot harder & more expensive to upgrade from Iguchi/AJ/etc, which makes it harder to do while still plugging Paulie's spot with a comparable player.

At some point, you can't upgrade that much by swapping a high salaried guy for a couple of mid-range guys.True, and that's why I'm not suggesting that. Instead, if we lose Konerko, we can go about filling the gaping holes in the #3 and #4 spots. The reason we acquired "mid-range" guys in 2004/2005 was that we had a lot of gaps to fill with the Maggs/Carlos money. Thats not the case this year. The Sox can take the Konerko/Everett money, get two big bats (one of which can play first) and they're done.

Deuce

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 06:55 AM
Every other position is fine as is, though the Sox could use a utility player as well.

Deuce

Not sure about that. Yes, our bench, overall, was in the bottom one-third of MLB benches probably. Of course, NL benches simply have to be stronger for obvious reasons.

With Ozuna, you have a lot of versatility and speed on the basepaths, as well as aggressiveness. He can bunt and hits to the opposite field.

Blum and Harris are essentially utility players as well. So, if anything, we need to lose Blum and probably trade Harris so he can have the opportunity to start elsewhere, as Iguchi´s deal probably will run for two more years.

Now an argument can be made we need to get a Todd Hollandsworth type, but we had that in Timo and did not utilize him last year....partly because he was not as good as 2004. Of course, playing time affects performance. It is hard to be successful when you only get 4 at-bats once every 10-12 days.

Getting a veteran like, I don´t know, Jose Valentin, gives you more power off the bench, but those players are not convinced they are utility or bench players...sometimes causing clubhouse problems. I am thinking of Royce Clayton and Kenny Lofton, specifically. There is upside, but the downside of chemistry and higher salary allocation.

Deuce
11-09-2005, 07:43 AM
Blum and Harris are essentially utility players as well. So, if anything, we need to lose Blum and probably trade Harris so he can have the opportunity to start elsewhere, as Iguchi´s deal probably will run for two more years.Blum is already gone (free agency), and that is the reason I said the Sox could you another utility player.

Getting a veteran like, I don´t know, Jose Valentin, gives you more power off the bench, but those players are not convinced they are utility or bench players...sometimes causing clubhouse problems. I am thinking of Royce Clayton and Kenny Lofton, specifically. There is upside, but the downside of chemistry and higher salary allocation.

:hitless,:manos or :lofton?!?!?!?

:chunks

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 07:53 AM
Blum is already gone (free agency), and that is the reason I said the Sox could you another utility player.



:hitless,:manos or :lofton?!?!?!?

:chunks


The point I was trying to make is that you DON´T want someone as a bench player that wants, or thinks, they are still a starting player and will obviously make their discontent apparent with pine time.

Lofton and Clayton were famous for their clubhouse issues...not quite to the same extent as Jimenez...but not good. I think they also influenced Carlos Lee in a negative fashion.

We still could bring Blum back if we wanted...but we will not pay him ¨starter¨ money to be a role player off the bench, and I think he wants one more shot at a starting position.

Flight #24
11-09-2005, 09:17 AM
True, and that's why I'm not suggesting that. Instead, if we lose Konerko, we can go about filling the gaping holes in the #3 and #4 spots. The reason we acquired "mid-range" guys in 2004/2005 was that we had a lot of gaps to fill with the Maggs/Carlos money. Thats not the case this year. The Sox can take the Konerko/Everett money, get two big bats (one of which can play first) and they're done.

Deuce

Not sure what 2 big bats you're going to get for Konerko's $$$. Even if they have $15M/yr allocated to Paulie, redirecting that is 2 guys making $8M or less. For example, the Delgado talk involves a $14M/yr contract. Helton's at $16-19. There's no way you get a guy like that AND another hitter.

Now if you're talking about a guy like Overbay, then there's 2 issues: 1)He's nowhere near the hitter Paulie is with a lot less power (and he's not young enough that you'd expect him to start "turning doubles into HRs"), and 2)He'll require a pretty solid chip in trade.

All of that doesn't mean that they should go over the $$ they value Paulie at. But there's a lot of "well, we can just spread his $$$ around and improve like we did last year" talk, and the situations are different enough that that's not IMO a realistic strategy this year.

maurice
11-09-2005, 01:15 PM
The Sox didn't improve because they got rid of Maggs & Carlos

My argument obviously is not that the Sox will improve solely by getting rid of Konerko. My argument is that the Sox will improve by replacing Konerko with Delgado (a better player), or by replacing Konerko / Everett with 2 players who combine to be better than the guys they're replacing. It's perfectly analogous to last offseason.

The question is: Delgado and $1-2M/yr or Konerko and McCarthy/Young/Anderson/Rowand?

If they demand McCarthy or Young, I'd turn them down and look elsewhere. IMO, KW can get him without giving up either of tose guys. What did the Cubs give the Fish for Lee?

caulfield12
11-09-2005, 07:03 PM
My argument obviously is not that the Sox will improve solely by getting rid of Konerko. My argument is that the Sox will improve by replacing Konerko with Delgado (a better player), or by replacing Konerko / Everett with 2 players who combine to be better than the guys they're replacing. It's perfectly analogous to last offseason.



If they demand McCarthy or Young, I'd turn them down and look elsewhere. IMO, KW can get him without giving up either of tose guys. What did the Cubs give the Fish for Lee?

Rowand is the only one I would give up, unless the Sox have some strong feelings about Anderson or Sweeney not being successful at the big league level...IMO Sweeney would be better to hold onto, since his value is down a little right now.

I would not mind giving up something like Rowand and Sean Tracey (just pulling a name out of the hat of our minor league starters) for Delgado. But I still am not convinced that the Sox want to take on that length of contract and at Delgado´s relatively advanced age. It will be interesting, to say the least.

Flight #24
11-09-2005, 08:30 PM
My argument obviously is not that the Sox will improve solely by getting rid of Konerko. My argument is that the Sox will improve by replacing Konerko with Delgado (a better player), or by replacing Konerko / Everett with 2 players who combine to be better than the guys they're replacing. It's perfectly analogous to last offseason.

If they demand McCarthy or Young, I'd turn them down and look elsewhere. IMO, KW can get him without giving up either of tose guys. What did the Cubs give the Fish for Lee?

Please ID 2. Like I said, IMO it's easy to say, not that easy to do. Delgado's making the same $$$. FAs aren't that plentiful this year.

As for Delgado v. Lee, very different scenario now than then.

Deuce
11-09-2005, 11:30 PM
Not sure what 2 big bats you're going to get for Konerko's $$$.It's not just Konerko money, but Everett money as well. And given that we have Aaron Rowand and a few prospects available for trades, we have a decent shot of picking up a quality player like Brian Giles and still have enough headway to trade for a decent first baseman. In fact, if we traded Aaron, we'd have another $3 mil to play with.

There is a lot that can be done to make the numbers work, but until the winter meeting, we aren't going to know what teams are trying to unload quality players (like Thome and Delgado) and whether they will eat up some of their salaries to get rid of them. And thats in addition to seeing what free agents are going to have to lower their asking price due to lack of interest.

Lastly, I have faith in KW that he will do the best with what he has. Who knew we were going to get so much with so little last year. Just think what KW can do with more money and less spots to fill.

Deuce

Lip Man 1
11-09-2005, 11:34 PM
Speculation is Brian Giles winds up with the St. Louis Cardinals and replaces Larry Walker.

Lip

Randar68
11-10-2005, 08:58 AM
Not sure what 2 big bats you're going to get for Konerko's $$$. Even if they have $15M/yr allocated to Paulie, redirecting that is 2 guys making $8M or less. For example, the Delgado talk involves a $14M/yr contract. Helton's at $16-19. There's no way you get a guy like that AND another hitter.


And there's no way you trade for either of those guys while assuming ALL of their salary either.

If you think McCarthy or Young would be involved in a Delgado deal, you really haven't been paying attention to the trade market the last few years... Money over prospects...

Randar68
11-10-2005, 08:59 AM
Speculation is Brian Giles winds up with the St. Louis Cardinals and replaces Larry Walker.

Lip

Been a rumor for 3 weeks. Just like Furcal to the Cubs. We'll see.

rmusacch
11-10-2005, 09:11 AM
Speculation is Brian Giles winds up with the St. Louis Cardinals and replaces Larry Walker.

Lip

I thought Brian and Marcus Giles wanted to play together?

Randar68
11-10-2005, 10:00 AM
I thought Brian and Marcus Giles wanted to play together?

Atlanta has a plethora of young OF'ers in addition to having Andruw Jones tied up... They have nowhere to play him and will not be in the market for Giles due to $$$ as well.

Flight #24
11-10-2005, 10:07 AM
And there's no way you trade for either of those guys while assuming ALL of their salary either.

If you think McCarthy or Young would be involved in a Delgado deal, you really haven't been paying attention to the trade market the last few years... Money over prospects...

I don't see why a team would get cash back from Florida without sending a solid talent back in return. Delgado comes effectively on a 3yr/$13.5M-per deal. Considering that Konerko, a guy that's generally considered as a similar or even inferior player, is supposedly expecting offers in the 5yr/$14M-per deal, Delgado's coming in at or below market (from a contract length perspective). The trade market the past few years has generally involved guys on much larger/longer contracts and coincides with those turning into way above market deals. That's not the case here.

Helton does have that type of deal. Thome's got the injury factor. Those 2 are more comparable to the "salary dump" trades we've seen in the past.

Flight #24
11-10-2005, 10:13 AM
It's not just Konerko money, but Everett money as well. And given that we have Aaron Rowand and a few prospects available for trades, we have a decent shot of picking up a quality player like Brian Giles and still have enough headway to trade for a decent first baseman. In fact, if we traded Aaron, we'd have another $3 mil to play with.



What you're talking about is the impact of the savings from Konerko. The Everett money's already there. The possibility of a Rowand deal is already there. The question is whether you can realistically save enough while getting a comparable replacement for Konerko to make the difference between and add another big bat. I just don't see that being the driver.

Again, last offseason, it was a question of going from minimum salaried chumps to solid players making $2-3M/yr. If you take $2M savings on Konerko, are you really going to get a guy that much better? Nope. You need another $5-6M to make that happen, and I just dont' see that kind of savings coming from Konerko without a corresponding decrease in the caliber of player you have at 1B (and that's without considering who you'd give up in trade to get that 1B).

russ99
11-10-2005, 10:19 AM
Speculation is Brian Giles winds up with the St. Louis Cardinals and replaces Larry Walker.

Lip

...and I get physically sick. Man, I hate how the Cards seem to always get those great players.

SouthSoxFan
11-10-2005, 10:30 AM
...and I get physically sick. Man, I hate how the Cards seem to always get those great players.
They are the premier organization to play for in the National League. And it makes sense that Giles would not want to switch leagues this late in his career. The rumor makes sense.