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Stoky44
11-03-2005, 04:46 PM
No big surprise here. Per Bruce @ ESPN1000, the White Sox will but out Thomas for $3.5mil by the end of buisness tomorrow.

This does not mean he is gone, I mean there was no way they were going to pay $10mil

Deuce
11-03-2005, 04:48 PM
So far, everything is going as expected. Given past negotiations, Jerry and Frank will get together and try to work out a deal. The sooner, the better.

Deuce

Chisox003
11-03-2005, 04:50 PM
Not shocking in the least....

Now we wait....

1. Will Hurt be signed?
2. Will PK be re-signed?
3. Will Duque be moved?
4. How will the bench be strengthened?
5. What (if any) lefty will be added to the pen?

Those are the 5 biggest questions right now .... You could definitely add "Will Rowand be traded?" or "Will we find a #3 hitter?"

But right now I think those 5 are the most important questions .... Get 'er done Kenny!

Stoky44
11-03-2005, 04:51 PM
So far, everything is going as expected. Given past negotiations, Jerry and Frank will get together and try to work out a deal. The sooner, the better.

Deuce


I hope this happens, but to me I would rather have PK as the #1 priority. I really hope jerry has talked to PK already. I mean it sounds like PK wants back, but the more I hear free agent talk about PK, the more nervous I get.

Stoky44
11-03-2005, 04:53 PM
Not shocking in the least....

Now we wait....

1. Will Hurt be signed?
2. Will PK be re-signed?
3. Will Duque be moved?
4. How will the bench be strengthened?
5. What (if any) lefty will be added to the pen?

Those are the 5 biggest questions right now .... You could definitely add "Will Rowand be traded?" or "Will we find a #3 hitter?"

But right now I think those 5 are the most important questions .... Get 'er done Kenny!

That's not listed in order of importance, is it? PK should be #1. I think we could use a left handed stick and probably a back up plan for DH, even if we sign the Big hurt, in case the injury does not work out the right way (like this year).

Madvora
11-03-2005, 04:56 PM
I hope this happens, but to me I would rather have PK as the #1 priority. I really hope jerry has talked to PK already. I mean it sounds like PK wants back, but the more I hear free agent talk about PK, the more nervous I get.
The Sox have exclusive rights to him for a few days before anyone else can get to him. I think the Sox will have their mind made up about Konerko before any other teams get a shot at him. I'm still confident that he will return. If he doesn't, then ehh... I have enough faith now that KW can put something together. It's way too early to worry about stuff.
As for Frank, I think he'll be back too.

Stoky44
11-03-2005, 05:02 PM
The Sox have exclusive rights to him for a few days before anyone else can get to him. I think the Sox will have their mind made up about Konerko before any other teams get a shot at him. I'm still confident that he will return. If he doesn't, then ehh... I have enough faith now that KW can put something together. It's way too early to worry about stuff.
As for Frank, I think he'll be back too.

You think Paul will sign before really testing the free agent market? That's not really testing the market. I hope you are right though. The longer we wait the more monney he will demand and the greater chance we lose him.

Baby Fisk
11-03-2005, 05:13 PM
So far, everything is going as expected. Given past negotiations, Jerry and Frank will get together and try to work out a deal. The sooner, the better.

Deuce

There is no try, there is only do. :cool:

gowhitesox
11-03-2005, 05:20 PM
I am sure the Sox will resign Frank Thomas to a lesser contract. This guy can still hit.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 05:23 PM
I am sure the Sox will resign Frank Thomas to a lesser contract. This guy can still hit.

He may be able to hit, but you're not allowed to use an electric wheelchair when "running" the bases.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 05:25 PM
Not shocking in the least....

Now we wait....

1. Will Hurt be signed?
2. Will PK be re-signed?
3. Will Duque be moved?
4. How will the bench be strengthened?
5. What (if any) lefty will be added to the pen?

Those are the 5 biggest questions right now .... You could definitely add "Will Rowand be traded?" or "Will we find a #3 hitter?"

But right now I think those 5 are the most important questions .... Get 'er done Kenny!

1. Will PK be re-signed?
2. Will we find a #3 hitter?

The other questions are all incidental at this point. Until you know the answers to these 2 questions, everything else is irrelevant.

Madvora
11-03-2005, 05:25 PM
You think Paul will sign before really testing the free agent market? That's not really testing the market. I hope you are right though. The longer we wait the more monney he will demand and the greater chance we lose him.
Well, I think they'll (KW and JR) have their mind made up at least. They will do some talking to him and find out what he wants. I don't think Paulie will sign before he looks around, but I think that KW and JR will already know what they're goign to do. PK will eventually come back to that offer. He doesn't seem like the type of guy that will be holding out for months and month. Compared to others, I think PK will make a relatively quick decision.

Deuce
11-03-2005, 05:32 PM
There is no try, there is only do. :cool:

Unfortunately, there is also a "do not." Can't imagine the Sox won't offer him something, though. It's Frank, after all.

Deuce

IlliniSox
11-03-2005, 05:34 PM
With Frank's buyout, you have to consider the $3.5M as sunk and lost in this negotiation. You can't say: "Frank we'll offer you an additional 1M plus incentives, that's 4.5 for this year guaranteed!" Because, another team can take a chance and offer him 2.5M.

Frank already has the 3.5 in his pocket; the Sox will have compete $ for $ with the open market, unless last Friday truly moved Frank enough to ignore his would-be suitors.

Baby Fisk
11-03-2005, 05:40 PM
Unfortunately, there is also a "do not." Can't imagine the Sox won't offer him something, though. It's Frank, after all.

Deuce
Suspect Uncle Jerry will be in a very generous/accomodating mood this off-season.

Deuce
11-03-2005, 05:53 PM
1. Will PK be re-signed?
2. Will we find a #3 hitter?

:cleo

"The answers is 'no' an 'we have already found Big Frank.'"

All jokes aside, you are right on the money.

Deuce

DickAllen72
11-03-2005, 06:01 PM
The Sox have exclusive rights to him for a few days before anyone else can get to him. I think the Sox will have their mind made up about Konerko before any other teams get a shot at him.

That's supposed to be the case, but according to news reports today Konerko's agent says that the Angels have already contacted him informing them of their interest. Shouldn't that be tampering??? :?:

steff
11-03-2005, 06:02 PM
That's supposed to be the case, but according to news reports today Konerko's agent says that the Angels have already contacted him informing them of their interest. Shouldn't that be tampering??? :?:

Yep. We have exclusive rights until 11/11.

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 06:03 PM
That's supposed to be the case, but according to news reports today Konerko's agent says that the Angels have already contacted him informing them of their interest. Shouldn't that be tampering??? :?:They can talk to him about just about everything except $$$.

Daver
11-03-2005, 06:27 PM
Someone should check the current CBA to see if a buy out is the same as declining an option, under the old CBA declining an option on a player was considered non-tendering him, which meant you could not negotiate till May 1st.

rm0824
11-03-2005, 06:30 PM
I see an agreement being made. I mean, it wasn't a surprise that this buyout was happening.

1 of 2 things will happen:

-Frank comes back
-Paulie comes back

It would be ideal if both happened, but the Sox need some insurance in case one or the other doesn't happen.

Paulwny
11-03-2005, 06:59 PM
I see an agreement being made. I mean, it wasn't a surprise that this buyout was happening.

1 of 2 things will happen:

-Frank comes back
-Paulie comes back

It would be ideal if both happened, but the Sox need some insurance in case one or the other doesn't happen.

If I were Frank, I'd sit back and wait for Konerko to make his decision. If PK leaves then Frank, knowing the sox need his bat, will ask for more $$$ then the sox originally offered.
Everything is up in the air until PK makes a decision.

soxfanreggie
11-03-2005, 07:11 PM
I think Frank will take his $3.5 million buy out and a 2 year $4 mil incentive baseed contract that could reach up to about $5 mil a year. While it's not $10 mil, it does give him $7.5 mil over two years with the potential of $13.5 mil over 2 years. I belive that is a very fair deal.

RallyBowl
11-03-2005, 07:16 PM
I see an agreement being made. I mean, it wasn't a surprise that this buyout was happening.

1 of 2 things will happen:

-Frank comes back
-Paulie comes back

It would be ideal if both happened, but the Sox need some insurance in case one or the other doesn't happen.

Is it possible that neither will happen?

jabrch
11-03-2005, 07:20 PM
I am sure the Sox will resign Frank Thomas to a lesser contract. This guy can still hit.

That would depend on his foot. Right now, he can't hit. He has to be able to a) run and b) put pressure on his foot before he can hit.

Lip Man 1
11-03-2005, 08:28 PM
I'm guessing the Sox do buy out Frank then negotiate an incentive based salary structure for next season.

As for Konerko, he's already stated publicly he is going to test the market. That doesn't mean however the Sox won't sign him, all things considered, I'd be very surprised if he left.

Lip

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 08:52 PM
Someone should check the current CBA to see if a buy out is the same as declining an option, under the old CBA declining an option on a player was considered non-tendering him, which meant you could not negotiate till May 1st.There's nothing I could find in the current CBA that says declining or buying out an option is equivalent to non-tendering him. And I'm getting that "deja vu all over again" feeling like we had this same discussion last year over somebody.

Kittle'sNeighbor
11-03-2005, 11:35 PM
You think Paul will sign before really testing the free agent market? That's not really testing the market. I hope you are right though. The longer we wait the more monney he will demand and the greater chance we lose him.

PK's agent already knows what he can get for his services.
PK lives around here and I've heard from a local that he won't be back. Hope it's not true. KW lives here also so maybe they will get something done at a Chaparral game.

.

gobears1987
11-03-2005, 11:38 PM
"Will we find a #3 hitter?"
I'm sick and tired of that question!!!! We have a #3 hitter, you know he hit 12 homers in 32 games last year in that spot. He is Frank. He is the best #3 hitter out there and he is ours. SHEESH!!! WE DON'T NEED ANYONE BUT FRANK THERE.

FarWestChicago
11-04-2005, 12:02 AM
PK lives around here and I've heard from a local that he won't be back. Did he overhear Wheels talking to his agent on a cell phone at the Phoenix airport? :redneck

SoxFan64
11-04-2005, 12:22 AM
He may be able to hit, but you're not allowed to use an electric wheelchair when "running" the bases.

when did that rule come into place? :redneck

OEO Magglio
11-04-2005, 12:24 AM
I'm sick and tired of that question!!!! We have a #3 hitter, you know he hit 12 homers in 32 games last year in that spot. He is Frank. He is the best #3 hitter out there and he is ours. SHEESH!!! WE DON'T NEED ANYONE BUT FRANK THERE.
Can you guarantee me that Frank will stay healthy over the course of an entire season?? I love Frank but this is a tough situation for Kenny, the smart move probably is to let Big Frank go but if he can stay healthy all year I believe that he can still hit. We'll see how Kenny handles this but it's definitely one of the harder decisions he has faced.

Deuce
11-04-2005, 08:03 AM
I'm sick and tired of that question!!!! We have a #3 hitter, you know he hit 12 homers in 32 games last year in that spot.Sure, but unfortunately, there are 162 regular games in a season, plus the playoffs. If Frank can't play next year, or at least play the entire year, who hits 3rd? Trust me, everyone here is irritated that this is a question that has to be asked. Everyone here would love to have a heathy Big Frank back for a full season. However, that may not be the case, and the Sox need to shore up not only the holes they have, but those they can foresee having.

The #3 spot was a huge issue this year, after Frank went down. Paulie can't do it, Dye never really settled into it, it only worsened Rowand's hitting, and Everett wasn't consistent at it either. Lets not leave it alone and act like its not a problem. Its a problem.

Deuce

MadetoOrta
11-04-2005, 08:19 AM
Don't expect anything definitive on Konerko until mid-December. If you have the Angels, Yankees and Boston negotiating against one another, he gone. 6-7 years? No thanks. I'll miss Paulie. We will survive. Frank? I hope JR guarantees as little $ as possible. It's just too risky.

Jjav829
11-04-2005, 08:51 AM
He may be able to hit, but you're not allowed to use an electric wheelchair when "running" the bases.

Is Willie Harris considered an electric wheelchair? :redneck

eriqjaffe
11-04-2005, 09:54 AM
The #3 spot was a huge issue this year, after Frank went down. Paulie can't do it, Dye never really settled into it, it only worsened Rowand's hitting, and Everett wasn't consistent at it either. Lets not leave it alone and act like its not a problem. Its a problem.Assuming Frank and Paulie are both gone next year, how does this sound:

1. Podsednik
2. Rowand
3. Iguchi
4. Dye/Everett/Some FA
5. Dye/Everett/Some FA
6. Dye/Everett/Some FA
7. Crede
8. Pierzynski
9. Uribe

Rowand had a banner year in 2004 hitting in the #2 spot, and Iguchi was a middle-of-the-lineup hitter in Japan, he should be able to adjust to the more power-oriented #3 spot fairly easily.

WestSox
11-04-2005, 10:01 AM
I love Frank but this is a tough situation for Kenny, the smart move probably is to let Big Frank go

No way. As long as he can be re-signed at a reasonable amount (maybe $5 million + incentives), he's worth the risk. His value is at an all-time low right now and he really wants to play for the Sox. KW needs to take advantage of that situation.

The Sox didn't score a tremendous amount of runs last season. And now they've lost Everett. As long as the price is reasonable, they need to roll the dice on Frank.

CaptainBallz
11-04-2005, 10:04 AM
Assuming Frank and Paulie are both gone next year, how does this sound:

1. Podsednik
2. Rowand
3. Iguchi
4. Dye/Everett/Some FA
5. Dye/Everett/Some FA
6. Dye/Everett/Some FA
7. Crede
8. Pierzynski
9. Uribe

Rowand had a banner year in 2004 hitting in the #2 spot, and Iguchi was a middle-of-the-lineup hitter in Japan, he should be able to adjust to the more power-oriented #3 spot fairly easily.

Do you really want to mess with the Pods/Gooch 1 & 2?

OEO Magglio
11-04-2005, 10:29 AM
No way. As long as he can be re-signed at a reasonable amount (maybe $5 million + incentives), he's worth the risk. His value is at an all-time low right now and he really wants to play for the Sox. KW needs to take advantage of that situation.

The Sox didn't score a tremendous amount of runs last season. And now they've lost Everett. As long as the price is reasonable, they need to roll the dice on Frank.
I'm not arguing that I want Frank gone but if he comes back we're going to need some kind of backup plan in place that is for sure. I mean think of it this way, if Paul doesn't come back and then you have Frank come back as the dh, he goes down again then all the sudden AJP is hitting cleanup...yikes.

D. TODD
11-04-2005, 10:36 AM
Frank will have to accept the majority of his money being in incentives. I do not see any team giving him over 1-3 million guaranteed with his very questionable health. I hope he recovers and is with us, but not by overpaying for a guy that is 50/50 at best to play.

WestSox
11-04-2005, 10:38 AM
I'm not arguing that I want Frank gone but if he comes back we're going to need some kind of backup plan in place that is for sure. I mean think of it this way, if Paul doesn't come back and then you have Frank come back as the dh, he goes down again then all the sudden AJP is hitting cleanup...yikes.

OK. I agree that if Paulie doesn't re-sign, we definitely need a backup plan. No Paulie + no Frank + no Carl = no offense.

eriqjaffe
11-04-2005, 10:39 AM
Do you really want to mess with the Pods/Gooch 1 & 2?Ideally, no. Iguchi is a far superior situational hitter - Rowand isn't nearly as good at moving the runners along through going to the right side or bunting, but he seemed much more capable at getting on base out of the #2 spot than he did hitting in the bottom of the order.

Just considering options is all.

Deuce
11-04-2005, 10:39 AM
Assuming Frank and Paulie are both gone next year, how does this sound:

1. Podsednik
2. Rowand
3. Iguchi
4. Dye/Everett/Some FA
5. Dye/Everett/Some FA
6. Dye/Everett/Some FA
7. Crede
8. Pierzynski
9. Uribe

Rowand had a banner year in 2004 hitting in the #2 spot, and Iguchi was a middle-of-the-lineup hitter in Japan, he should be able to adjust to the more power-oriented #3 spot fairly easily.

I don't like it. Given this teams knack for 1 run games, moving Pods over is crucial. I don't think Rowand is best set up for that, and could easily see him hitting into DPs left and right. In addition, Iguchi can hit for power, but is not a power hitter. We need someone who can go 30/100 in the #3 spot, and Gooch doesn't fit the bill. And why move AJ down and Joe up? They have been doing so well where they are. Also, Everett is gone and I doubt he will be back.

If we lose Paulie, we need some outside help. Moving what we have around isn't going to cut it.

Deuce

Randar68
11-04-2005, 10:49 AM
I'm sick and tired of that question!!!! We have a #3 hitter, you know he hit 12 homers in 32 games last year in that spot. He is Frank. He is the best #3 hitter out there and he is ours. SHEESH!!! WE DON'T NEED ANYONE BUT FRANK THERE.

And why did he play just 32 games, Mr. Smarty Pants? You want to depend on that guy to play 150 games as DH for you?

That's about as foolish and irresponsible as it gets.

I would love for Frank to be back, but it has to be in the form of a non-critical role where if he get's hurt again there isn't a giant gaping hole in the middle of the order.

Out of 810 regular season games the last 5 years, Frank has played in just 429, and a majority of those games were played in 2 of the 5 years. The other 3 years were basically lost seasons...

Randar68
11-04-2005, 10:50 AM
Do you really want to mess with the Pods/Gooch 1 & 2?

Only if it's Pods/Furcal/Iguchi! :-)

Or better yet... Pods/Furcal/Giles/PK/Dye/Iguchi!

Ol' No. 2
11-04-2005, 10:58 AM
Assuming Frank and Paulie are both gone next year, how does this sound:

1. Podsednik
2. Rowand
3. Iguchi
4. Dye/Everett/Some FA
5. Dye/Everett/Some FA
6. Dye/Everett/Some FA
7. Crede
8. Pierzynski
9. Uribe

Rowand had a banner year in 2004 hitting in the #2 spot, and Iguchi was a middle-of-the-lineup hitter in Japan, he should be able to adjust to the more power-oriented #3 spot fairly easily.It sounds like second place. Or worse.

bigdommer
11-04-2005, 11:04 AM
If the Sox can't re-sign PK, it leaves them in a bind, regardless of Frank returning. With no viable options on the FA market, the Sox would likely be forced to move Dye to 1st, let BA roam RF, and have Frank as the DH (with no backup plan if he can't play). This would make our OF pretty powerless. This would pretty much force KW to make a trade, all with some scary consequences.

First option: get Overbay from the Brewers. The good: he's a LH hitter, he's cheap, and the Brewers need to move him. The bad: Brewers would command a young SP (likely Garland or BMac), and Overbay is a step down from PK. This would allow Dye to stay in right, and Frank DH, and BA is now insurance instead of a 1st option.

Second option: get a pricey 1B like Delgado or Thome. The good: both are lefty, both hit to all parts of the park, and could be had (with money thrown in/contract traded) for the same price as PK with the same production. The bad: both would have to DH mostly, Florida/Philly would want an OF (Rowand) with some bullpen arms, and both guys are injury prone (esp Thome). This move would put BA in center, hurt our defense at 1st, possibly crowd our DH situation (if Frank is kept), and would cost us Rowand. However, with money thrown in, and Rowand shaved off the payroll, the costs wouldn't be that much and the upside is higher.

Thoughts? I'm insane.

nlentz88
11-04-2005, 11:11 AM
If KW goes with Frank at DH, he already has a ready-made contingency plan. If Frank goes down during the season, KW can always trade for Everett again! :tongue:

Ol' No. 2
11-04-2005, 11:12 AM
If the Sox can't re-sign PK, it leaves them in a bind, regardless of Frank returning. With no viable options on the FA market, the Sox would likely be forced to move Dye to 1st, let BA roam RF, and have Frank as the DH (with no backup plan if he can't play). This would make our OF pretty powerless. This would pretty much force KW to make a trade, all with some scary consequences.

First option: get Overbay from the Brewers. The good: he's a LH hitter, he's cheap, and the Brewers need to move him. The bad: Brewers would command a young SP (likely Garland or BMac), and Overbay is a step down from PK. This would allow Dye to stay in right, and Frank DH, and BA is now insurance instead of a 1st option.

Second option: get a pricey 1B like Delgado or Thome. The good: both are lefty, both hit to all parts of the park, and could be had (with money thrown in/contract traded) for the same price as PK with the same production. The bad: both would have to DH mostly, Florida/Philly would want an OF (Rowand) with some bullpen arms, and both guys are injury prone (esp Thome). This move would put BA in center, hurt our defense at 1st, possibly crowd our DH situation (if Frank is kept), and would cost us Rowand. However, with money thrown in, and Rowand shaved off the payroll, the costs wouldn't be that much and the upside is higher.

Thoughts? I'm insane.I do not see the big attraction in Overbay. I've heard all the arguments, I've looked at his numbers, and I just don't see it.

If they can't re-sign Konerko, I'd try to swing a trade for Thome. It wouldn't take much if they took on his whole contract, and with PK gone, they could easily afford it. Let Gload play 1B and Thome DH most of the time. Even if you had to trade Rowand and put Anderson in CF, I think that's a much better situation overall than anything else I've heard.

Randar68
11-04-2005, 11:15 AM
If the Sox can't re-sign PK, it leaves them in a bind, regardless of Frank returning. With no viable options on the FA market, the Sox would likely be forced to move Dye to 1st, let BA roam RF, and have Frank as the DH (with no backup plan if he can't play). This would make our OF pretty powerless. This would pretty much force KW to make a trade, all with some scary consequences.

First option: get Overbay from the Brewers. The good: he's a LH hitter, he's cheap, and the Brewers need to move him. The bad: Brewers would command a young SP (likely Garland or BMac), and Overbay is a step down from PK. This would allow Dye to stay in right, and Frank DH, and BA is now insurance instead of a 1st option.

Second option: get a pricey 1B like Delgado or Thome. The good: both are lefty, both hit to all parts of the park, and could be had (with money thrown in/contract traded) for the same price as PK with the same production. The bad: both would have to DH mostly, Florida/Philly would want an OF (Rowand) with some bullpen arms, and both guys are injury prone (esp Thome). This move would put BA in center, hurt our defense at 1st, possibly crowd our DH situation (if Frank is kept), and would cost us Rowand. However, with money thrown in, and Rowand shaved off the payroll, the costs wouldn't be that much and the upside is higher.

Thoughts? I'm insane.

Why the HELL is Overbay a better option than Thome/Delgado/Helton? If PK leaves this team will have closer to 25 million to spend without trading anyone, yet trading for Lyle Overbay is our best option?

How about Giles and Furcal?

Lyle Overbay? Good lord people. We need a #3 and a #4 hitter if PK leaves, and we're talking about Lyle Freakin' Overbay?

Randar68
11-04-2005, 11:18 AM
I do not see the big attraction in Overbay. I've heard all the arguments, I've looked at his numbers, and I just don't see it.

If they can't re-sign Konerko, I'd try to swing a trade for Thome. It wouldn't take much if they took on his whole contract, and with PK gone, they could easily afford it. Let Gload play 1B and Thome DH most of the time. Even if you had to trade Rowand and put Anderson in CF, I think that's a much better situation overall than anything else I've heard.

Yep. IMO, you make competing offers for Helton/Thome/Delgado and see who will pick up the most salary in the deal and move on from there. Take it or leave it. I would prefer Thome or Helton to Delgado for clubhouse reasons, but we'd be pretty desperate for a #3 and #4 hitter if PK leaves.

I still prefer making a SERIOUS run at Giles or Matsui if they hit the open market. Getting one of those bats in the OF leaves you a lot more options at 1B and with Frank at DH.

Ol' No. 2
11-04-2005, 11:26 AM
Yep. IMO, you make competing offers for Helton/Thome/Delgado and see who will pick up the most salary in the deal and move on from there. Take it or leave it. I would prefer Thome or Helton to Delgado for clubhouse reasons, but we'd be pretty desperate for a #3 and #4 hitter if PK leaves.

I still prefer making a SERIOUS run at Giles or Matsui if they hit the open market. Getting one of those bats in the OF leaves you a lot more options at 1B and with Frank at DH.I mentioned Thome because I think he's the most likely and I like him better than Helton. If Frank comes back he's probably not going to be able to play every day anyway. You can keep Thome's bat in the lineup by playing him at 1B some of the time, and playing Gload the rest.

Obviously Giles or Matsui would be great, but both are longshots IMO. I also like all these scenarios better than moving Dye to 1B. It just seems like a waste of talent to take a gold glove RF and move him to 1B.

Randar68
11-04-2005, 11:46 AM
I mentioned Thome because I think he's the most likely and I like him better than Helton. If Frank comes back he's probably not going to be able to play every day anyway. You can keep Thome's bat in the lineup by playing him at 1B some of the time, and playing Gload the rest.

Obviously Giles or Matsui would be great, but both are longshots IMO. I also like all these scenarios better than moving Dye to 1B. It just seems like a waste of talent to take a gold glove RF and move him to 1B.

What are your feelings on Delgado? His deal is VERY back-loaded and the Marlins are going to have to eat a bunch of the back-end money to deal him. He's the most-likely to be traded out of the 3, Thome next, Helton last. Delgado is also a better first-baseman at this point than Thome.

Anyone in FA you think we should look at? Kevin Millar?

antitwins13
11-04-2005, 11:50 AM
1. Will PK be re-signed?
2. Will we find a #3 hitter?

The other questions are all incidental at this point. Until you know the answers to these 2 questions, everything else is irrelevant.

We have a #3 hitter..... #35 Fraaaaaaaaaaank Thomas!
:putitontheboard

IlliniSox
11-04-2005, 12:02 PM
We have a #3 hitter..... #35 Fraaaaaaaaaaank Thomas!
:putitontheboard

Ugh. What happened to this place? See Randar's post above. He's played in olnly 429 out of the last 820 possible games. And he's aged 5+ years in the process!

Randar68
11-04-2005, 12:03 PM
We have a #3 hitter..... #35 Fraaaaaaaaaaank Thomas!


A #3 hitter who has played 108 games in 2 years, is 275 pounds and has chronic foot problems. Sounds like someone we should build the team around... :rolleyes:

bigdommer
11-04-2005, 12:04 PM
Why the HELL is Overbay a better option than Thome/Delgado/Helton? If PK leaves this team will have closer to 25 million to spend without trading anyone, yet trading for Lyle Overbay is our best option?

How about Giles and Furcal?

Lyle Overbay? Good lord people. We need a #3 and a #4 hitter if PK leaves, and we're talking about Lyle Freakin' Overbay?

I would rather see Thome/Helton/Delgado than Overbay, but giving KW's history, that just seems like a logical scenario.

I don't think Helton will be available. Delgado would be the best fit, but I can't see the Marlins picking up much salary. (However, if we packaged Rowand, Marte, and Viz, we could save some salary.) And although I don't mind the rist of Thome, the Phillies are talking about waiting until spring training to deal him, and KW can't wait that long. (Personally, I don't understand why they would wait. Howard can't play the outfield. And if Thome proves he's healthy, that doesn't increase his value as much as his non-health would diminish it.)

bigdommer
11-04-2005, 12:05 PM
What are your feelings on Delgado? His deal is VERY back-loaded and the Marlins are going to have to eat a bunch of the back-end money to deal him. He's the most-likely to be traded out of the 3, Thome next, Helton last. Delgado is also a better first-baseman at this point than Thome.

Anyone in FA you think we should look at? Kevin Millar?

I would rather go through the season with Gload at 1B than Millar.

Flight #24
11-04-2005, 12:06 PM
What are your feelings on Delgado? His deal is VERY back-loaded and the Marlins are going to have to eat a bunch of the back-end money to deal him. He's the most-likely to be traded out of the 3, Thome next, Helton last. Delgado is also a better first-baseman at this point than Thome.

Anyone in FA you think we should look at? Kevin Millar?

The interesting thing will be to see what the trade market for high salaried players is like this offseason. When the FA alternative is Paul Konerko at $12-$14M for 4-6 years, trading for Carlos Delgado at $14M isn't that onerous of a move if you want that kind of stick. This isn't a Manny Ramirez deal, or a Mike Hampton where the guy sucks but has a high salary. You'd effectively be trading for a guy at the price which you would sign him for in FA. Which will require more chips in trade and less cash coming back.

The FA market for 1Bs sucks outside of Konerko. Millar? Piazza? Olerud? :o:

It's not the first choice, but Dye begins to look pretty attractive as a 1B when compared to that list. And it would let you put the Paulie $ towards say overpaying Brian Giles to get him to come here.

mdep524
11-04-2005, 12:06 PM
I do not see the big attraction in Overbay. I've heard all the arguments, I've looked at his numbers, and I just don't see it.

If they can't re-sign Konerko, I'd try to swing a trade for Thome. It wouldn't take much if they took on his whole contract, and with PK gone, they could easily afford it. Let Gload play 1B and Thome DH most of the time. Even if you had to trade Rowand and put Anderson in CF, I think that's a much better situation overall than anything else I've heard. Thome's left handed, has a high OBP (though a mediocre average) and hits for a ton of power. He's also 35, a big injury risk and is owed a ridiculous $43.5 million over the next 3 years. That's an average of 14.5 mil/year. The Sox would be very foolish to pick up all of that contract.

The burden should be on Phily here- they can't let the Thome/Howard thing remain unsettled going into '06. If the Phillies are willing to pick up a significant chunk of that contract, I wouldn't mind seeing Thome DHing. Unfortunately, there will be competetion for him- the Star Tribune is reporting the Twins are interested: http://www.startribune.com/stories/507/5707550-2.html

Yep. IMO, you make competing offers for Helton/Thome/Delgado and see who will pick up the most salary in the deal and move on from there. Take it or leave it. I would prefer Thome or Helton to Delgado for clubhouse reasons, but we'd be pretty desperate for a #3 and #4 hitter if PK leaves. Yeah, I like Randar's thinking here. Helton is the best option of the bunch, but he's the least likely to be traded. What is the clubhouse reason you always cite when talking about Delgado? The national anthem thing? I didn't know he was a clubhouse cancer.

Randar68
11-04-2005, 12:07 PM
I would rather see Thome/Helton/Delgado than Overbay, but giving KW's history, that just seems like a logical scenario.

I don't think Helton will be available. Delgado would be the best fit, but I can't see the Marlins picking up much salary. (However, if we packaged Rowand, Marte, and Viz, we could save some salary.) And although I don't mind the rist of Thome, the Phillies are talking about waiting until spring training to deal him, and KW can't wait that long. (Personally, I don't understand why they would wait. Howard can't play the outfield. And if Thome proves he's healthy, that doesn't increase his value as much as his non-health would diminish it.)

KW's history? A history that includes acquiring expensive pitchers like Contreras and Garcia? Or trading for David Wells and Bartolo Colon? Or offering Maggs 5 years 60 million prior to injury? Or something similar to Konerko?

What history are you referring to? If KW needs a #3 and #4 hitter, he's not going to do it "on the cheap", not with a payroll increase and losing one of your most popular players...

Randar68
11-04-2005, 12:10 PM
Yeah, I like Randar's thinking here. Helton is the best option of the bunch, but he's the least likely to be traded. What is the clubhouse reason you always cite when talking about Delgado? The national anthem thing? I didn't know he was a clubhouse cancer.

He's got a pretty big ego and has been a malcontent at times in the past. Not as bad as calling out teammates or anything like that, but he's never really been a AJ/Konerko/Buehrle type of guy in the clubhouse. It's nto a big deal, but Thome and Helton are GREAT guys in the clubhouse, so there is some difference there that KW may or may not be concerned with.

Jjav829
11-04-2005, 12:47 PM
Assuming Frank and Paulie are both gone next year, how does this sound:

1. Podsednik
2. Rowand
3. Iguchi
4. Dye/Everett/Some FA
5. Dye/Everett/Some FA
6. Dye/Everett/Some FA
7. Crede
8. Pierzynski
9. Uribe

Rowand had a banner year in 2004 hitting in the #2 spot, and Iguchi was a middle-of-the-lineup hitter in Japan, he should be able to adjust to the more power-oriented #3 spot fairly easily.

:puking:

Iguchi is not a #3 hitter! If we go into next season relying on Iguchi to drive in 100+ runs we are in trouble. We need to find two good hitters for the 1B/DH spots that can bat #3 and #4. It's up to Kenny to make that happen. If Konerko is one then Kenny's job is a bit easier. Otherwise he's going to have to go into the trade market to find these hitters and guess what, that means we're going to have to give up something. Any combination of Aaron Rowand, El Duque, Damaso Marte, and whatever other mediocre players you want to add into the mix will not land us a #3/#4 hitter. It's that simple. That means considering trading a guy like Garcia or Garland. Garland is going to get a big raise. Garcia, Buehrle and Contreras already have high salaries for next year. We're talking about having $30 million of our payroll invested in 4 starters, not including the $4.5 million El Duque will make. It's not out of the realm of possibility that KW would look to trade someone like Garcia for a bat and then replace Garcia in free agency. There are a lot more good pitchers in the free agent market than hitters.

I know no one wants to move anyone on the pitching staff, but that might be what Kenny has to do for the good of the team if Konerko does leave. The free agent market for hitters is very thin. The market for 1B is horrible after Konerko. That means the only other solution for acquiring a 1B outside of the organization is a trade.

DenverSock
11-04-2005, 12:55 PM
Looking over eriqjaffe's post, I started wondering, didn't the give up on Carl Everret?

90blackcrx
11-04-2005, 01:09 PM
Just heard they bought his contract and will not resign him.

Madvora
11-04-2005, 01:09 PM
You've got a lot of catching up to do. He'll be back.

nodiggity59
11-04-2005, 01:10 PM
Seriously, where is your ****ing source? If you heard this from a friend you're on my ignore list.

Where? When?

90blackcrx
11-04-2005, 01:11 PM
ESPN radio, they said they will not buy him back or offer him anything else

voodoochile
11-04-2005, 01:12 PM
Just heard they bought his contract and will not resign him.

Well, it's well known that they bought him out, but where did you hear they won't make him an incentive laden deal?

Stoky44
11-04-2005, 01:13 PM
ESPN radio, they said they will not buy him back or offer him anything else

AS of the 11:40 ESPN update, like all the other updates for the past 36 hours, they are buying out thomas for 3.5 mil, but they said nothing about not offering him anything.

90blackcrx
11-04-2005, 01:13 PM
Well, it's well known that they bought him out, but where did you hear they won't make him an incentive laden deal?

ESPN radio, they said he is not coming back to Chicago. Thats what I heard from a friend.

Randar68
11-04-2005, 01:14 PM
ESPN radio, they said he is not coming back to Chicago. Thats what I heard from a friend.

:dtroll:

moron.

steff
11-04-2005, 01:14 PM
ESPN radio, they said they will not buy him back or offer him anything else


That is not what they said.


:dtroll:

voodoochile
11-04-2005, 01:15 PM
ESPN radio, they said he is not coming back to Chicago

Well, that and $0.50 will get you a Tribune where you can probably read the same thing tomorrow based on that report.

Of course ESPN has never been wrong before, right? :rolleyes:

voodoochile
11-04-2005, 01:16 PM
ESPN radio, they said he is not coming back to Chicago. Thats what I heard from a friend.

Okay, now the post has changed... You trolling? You look like your trolling...

Got my eye on you, blackcrx...

Stoky44
11-04-2005, 01:16 PM
Just heard they bought his contract and will not resign him.

And Konerko just signed with the LAA = imaginary radio

90blackcrx
11-04-2005, 01:17 PM
Okay, now the post has changed... You trolling? You look like your trolling...

Got my eye on you, blackcrx...

haha keep that eye on me, why the hell would I troll a white sox forum.

:dtroll:

steff
11-04-2005, 01:17 PM
haha keep that eye on me, why the hell would I troll a white sox forum.

:dtroll:


Good grief.. VD.. pull the trigger.

voodoochile
11-04-2005, 01:18 PM
haha keep that eye on me, why the hell would I troll a white sox forum.

:dtroll:

The reasons are mysterious as they are numerous... Tell you what. I'll make sure you aren't trolling... Now everything you type, I have to approve first. Have a good day...

bigdommer
11-04-2005, 01:28 PM
KW's history? A history that includes acquiring expensive pitchers like Contreras and Garcia? Or trading for David Wells and Bartolo Colon? Or offering Maggs 5 years 60 million prior to injury? Or something similar to Konerko?

What history are you referring to? If KW needs a #3 and #4 hitter, he's not going to do it "on the cheap", not with a payroll increase and losing one of your most popular players...

KW DOES NOT have a history of picking up other teams' bad contracts.

Garcia - midseason pickup, cheap, FA to be
Wells - gave up nothing of value, got a full season of Wells' in a contract year
Colon - same as Wells
Contreras - picked up his 2.5 years on his contract, but got the Yanks to pay for a quarter of it
Maggs - he was offering a FMV contract to a proven commodity

I never said that KW is cheap. He has a history of picking up guys in a contract year (Wells, Colon), taking castoffs (AJ, Dye, Loiaza), and replacing one player with multiple players (the Lee/Pods deal). Ozzie has said that he would rather have 9 20 HR hitters that two 40 HR hitters (or something to that effect). I hope the Sox resign Konerko, and I believe that KW will offer him FMV, but I don't think KW will give him 75 mill for 5 years. And I don't see KW crippling the future of the franchise by picking up a guy who makes 19 mill in the year 2011.

Do you think KW was "on the cheap" when he replaced Maggs and Carlos with Dye, Pods, and Co??????

eriqjaffe
11-04-2005, 01:33 PM
Looking over eriqjaffe's post, I started wondering, didn't the give up on Carl Everret?You're right, I forgot that the Sox declined Everett's option. Shame on me.

Not that my idea was apparently any good to begin with, but that really screws it up. :D:

Randar68
11-04-2005, 01:34 PM
KW DOES NOT have a history of picking up other teams' bad contracts.

You logic makes no sense. He was short a #3 hitter all year. Konerko, his #4 hitter, hypothetically walks away after this year. Where is he going to find those guys? He knows he needs to address those spots. Those guys ain't cheap and guess what else? There are only 1 or 2 of them out there on the FA market.

Hell, Thome and even Delgado's deals aren't all that dissimilar from what they're offering Konerko, especially if those teams pick up a little of the contract...

We're not talking about A-Rod, Manny, etc money.

But hey, I guess if Konerko walks, KW is going to go into 2006 with a #3 and 4 hitter like Millar and Durazo, right? *****.

Flight #24
11-04-2005, 01:37 PM
I never said that KW is cheap. He has a history of picking up guys in a contract year (Wells, Colon), taking castoffs (AJ, Dye, Loiaza), and replacing one player with multiple players (the Lee/Pods deal). Ozzie has said that he would rather have 9 20 HR hitters that two 40 HR hitters (or something to that effect). I hope the Sox resign Konerko, and I believe that KW will offer him FMV, but I don't think KW will give him 75 mill for 5 years. And I don't see KW crippling the future of the franchise by picking up a guy who makes 19 mill in the year 2011.



NONONONONONO!!!!

For crying out loud, the strategy the Sox employed was NOT "We won't pay for 1 bigtime bat", it was "We won't pay that if it means we have 3 chumps at other spots in the order".

There are no chumps in the order now, so unless signing Paulie means you have to cut someone and replace them with a chump, the same logic doesn't apply. The only other feasible alternative is to say you can spread that $$$ around and get the same type of improvement at a number of other positions. But guess what - it's a lot harder and more expensive to upgrade from Iguchi/Dye/AJ than it was from Harris/Borchard/Ben Davis.

Ol' No. 2
11-04-2005, 01:41 PM
Good grief. Is it just me or has this **** gotten sillier earlier than in years past?

How much longer until opening day?:(:

bigdommer
11-04-2005, 01:43 PM
You logic makes no sense. He was short a #3 hitter all year. Konerko, his #4 hitter, hypothetically walks away after this year. Where is he going to find those guys? He knows he needs to address those spots. Those guys ain't cheap and guess what else? There are only 1 or 2 of them out there on the FA market.

Hell, Thome and even Delgado's deals aren't all that dissimilar from what they're offering Konerko, especially if those teams pick up a little of the contract...

We're not talking about A-Rod, Manny, etc money.

But hey, I guess if Konerko walks, KW is going to go into 2006 with a #3 and 4 hitter like Millar and Durazo, right? *****.

Easy there. I never said that KW wouldn't do it, or that I don't want him to do it, but it's just not in his past to take on someone elses financial burden (say what you want about Contreras, but with the cash the Yanks threw in, he was the cost of any inning-eating, bottom of the rotation guy).

Thome's deal is very different when you consider his age and recent injury history, and if I am not mistaken, he makes 16.5 in 07 and 08. If KW can't get a deal done with PK, I highly doubt he decides to take all of PK's money and give it to Thome.

If KW can get creative, bring another team in or get some cash, as well as keep the core of the team, it would make sense for him to do it. But we all know that KW isn't going to make an impulse decision because he has money or he cares what the team thinks.

bigdommer
11-04-2005, 01:48 PM
NONONONONONO!!!!

For crying out loud, the strategy the Sox employed was NOT "We won't pay for 1 bigtime bat", it was "We won't pay that if it means we have 3 chumps at other spots in the order".

There are no chumps in the order now, so unless signing Paulie means you have to cut someone and replace them with a chump, the same logic doesn't apply. The only other feasible alternative is to say you can spread that $$$ around and get the same type of improvement at a number of other positions. But guess what - it's a lot harder and more expensive to upgrade from Iguchi/Dye/AJ than it was from Harris/Borchard/Ben Davis.

Let's face it, there aren't many guys out there. He'll work hard to get PK signed. If he fails, he'll work on getting a Delgado, or maybe a Thome. If that fails, we might have to downgrade at 1B. (This doesn't mean the sky is falling) KW will try his butt off, but he won't cripple this franchise because the fans and ESPN say that you have to have a 40HR guy in the middle of the order.

Stoky44
11-04-2005, 01:55 PM
KW will try his butt off, but he won't cripple this franchise because the fans and ESPN say that you have to have a 40HR guy in the middle of the order.
We need a .300 hitter too

Randar68
11-04-2005, 02:16 PM
Good grief. Is it just me or has this **** gotten sillier earlier than in years past?

How much longer until opening day?:(:

Unreal. I've also seen about 3 or 4 newbies today alone just jump in with highly naive and just moronic rambling...

I think this is why I posted so much less frequently last offseason as in offseasons past. The greater number of posters, the greater number of clueless dimwits.

voodoochile
11-04-2005, 02:19 PM
Unreal. I've also seen about 3 or 4 newbies today alone just jump in with highly naive and just moronic rambling...

I think this is why I posted so much less frequently last offseason as in offseasons past. The greater number of posters, the greater number of clueless dimwits.

Oh be nice, how can they learn if everyone just bashes on them. Save the vitrol for genuine trolls, not people who just don't know as much as you do and have too much enthusiasm for their own good.

It's easier to educate people on the realities of baseball if you aren't constantly beating them on the head...

Sheesh... we all were newbies sometime in our life. If we got treated like some of the regulars treat people around here, we'd never have gotten smarter either...

Randar68
11-04-2005, 02:25 PM
Sheesh... we all were newbies sometime in our life. If we got treated like some of the regulars treat people around here, we'd never have gotten smarter either...

Well, that was what the ESPN boards were for, right? As I recall we all beat eachother over the head. In fact, that's all I recall ever happenning... :D:

bigdommer
11-04-2005, 02:26 PM
Unreal. I've also seen about 3 or 4 newbies today alone just jump in with highly naive and just moronic rambling...

I think this is why I posted so much less frequently last offseason as in offseasons past. The greater number of posters, the greater number of clueless dimwits.

Is there anywhere I can go to turn in my screen-name? Apparently, I am not worthy.

tstrike2000
11-04-2005, 03:18 PM
He may be able to hit, but you're not allowed to use an electric wheelchair when "running" the bases.

As long as he doesn't a secret operation on his ankle in Austria at least the Sox can continue to monitor his prognosis. The fact it's taken so long for both breaks to heal and the uncertainty of his future health are two things that are a huge problem.

RedHeadPaleHoser
11-04-2005, 03:23 PM
Unreal. I've also seen about 3 or 4 newbies today alone just jump in with highly naive and just moronic rambling...

I think this is why I posted so much less frequently last offseason as in offseasons past. The greater number of posters, the greater number of clueless dimwits.
Randar...I thought your reduction in posts had to do with Rowand not taking the right angle...all that trigonometry wasted.

kevin57
11-04-2005, 03:37 PM
Unreal. I've also seen about 3 or 4 newbies today alone just jump in with highly naive and just moronic rambling...

I think this is why I posted so much less frequently last offseason as in offseasons past. The greater number of posters, the greater number of clueless dimwits.

"Clueless" or "Insightful," it's all a matter of opinion...and that's what a message board is all about...arguing passionately. Careful about elitism.

Randar68
11-04-2005, 03:41 PM
Careful about elitism.

"Expressing an opinion" and "expressing an informed opinion" are 2 very different things. Neither has anything to do with elitism.

XplodingScorbord
11-04-2005, 04:32 PM
"Expressing an opinion" and "expressing an informed opinion" are 2 very different things. Neither has anything to do with elitism.

In your opinion.:tongue:

SOXSINCE'70
11-04-2005, 04:39 PM
I'm guessing the Sox do buy out Frank then negotiate an incentive based salary structure for next season.

As for Konerko, he's already stated publicly he is going to test the market. That doesn't mean however the Sox won't sign him, all things considered, I'd be very surprised if he left.

Lip

So would most of the so called "experts".Sports Illustrated,
which was kind enough:rolleyes: to contribute the upper right hand corner
of their newest front cover to the WORLD CHAMPION WHITE SOX,
seems to believe Konerko will sign a 3 yr deal around 40 mil or so.

voodoochile
11-04-2005, 05:38 PM
"Expressing an opinion" and "expressing an informed opinion" are 2 very different things. Neither has anything to do with elitism.

I get 95% of my Sox info right in these forums. That includes trades, FA acquisitions, Minor League development, wins and losses and injury info.

The rest is stats I go to ESPN or a similar site to look up. I'm not the most educated poster in the world, but I'm not an idiot either. My point is that maybe we need to be more tolerant of people's opinions and lead them in the direction they don't necessarily see before them.

Yes, just like the proverbial horse, not all posters will actually drink from the water once led there, but you will still catch WAY more flies with honey than with **** - and having an outsized mitt works best of all...:tongue:

Deadguy
11-04-2005, 08:08 PM
I hope something can be worked out. Frank has a great relationship with Ozzie and JR, and it seems like even he and KW are getting along well.

Frankly Missing
11-05-2005, 06:49 AM
What's the best way to send a blurp to the front office about bring Frank back?