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View Full Version : once and for all Dye can not play first base


Domeshot17
11-02-2005, 07:16 PM
This absolutely drives me nuts, the idea we can let Paulie go, move Dye to first base and get an OF to hit for paulie's production

IF WE LOSE PAULIE WE BRING IN A NEW 1b

Dye played 1 game at first this year, and only because Paulie had played a good 30+ straight there.

case closed.

The_Floridian
11-02-2005, 07:18 PM
This absolutely drives me nuts, the idea we can let Paulie go, move Dye to first base and get an OF to hit for paulie's production

IF WE LOSE PAULIE WE BRING IN A NEW 1b

Dye played 1 game at first this year, and only because Paulie had played a good 30+ straight there.

case closed.

Well that sounds fine.
But can Dye play first base?

MUsoxfan
11-02-2005, 07:29 PM
We're all putting the cart in front of the horse here. I hate pure speculation nonsense. Wait until SOMETHING happens until we start talking about crazy roster/managerial moves

RedPinStripes
11-02-2005, 07:34 PM
This absolutely drives me nuts, the idea we can let Paulie go, move Dye to first base and get an OF to hit for paulie's production

IF WE LOSE PAULIE WE BRING IN A NEW 1b

Dye played 1 game at first this year, and only because Paulie had played a good 30+ straight there.

case closed.

Why can't he play 1b? I wouldn't have a problem with it at all if Pauly wasnt here. It's a lot easier to find a good OF then a 1b. And if they plan on Keeping Dye, that would be the place for him , again if Pauly isnt here Ryan Sweeny and Brian Anderson can't stay in AAA for ever.

Why did I just fall for this? I don't care about next year right now. All I know is they will be raising a World series banner and having a ring ceromony opening day next year. I won't get into this argument. I'm just going to enjoy the winter. For once, Sox fan have NOTHING to bitch about. **** the gold gloves, we're the champs!

munchman33
11-02-2005, 07:43 PM
Why put Dye at first? Because the next best first basemen on the market if we don't resign Konerko is Kevin Millar. Because our system is stacked with outfielders. Because Dye has said himself he didn't have trouble playing first. Because Dye has more range than Konerko....miles more.

Tragg
11-02-2005, 07:45 PM
Why put Dye at first? Because the next best first basemen on the market if we don't resign Konerko is Kevin Millar. Because our system is stacked with outfielders. Because Dye has said himself he didn't have trouble playing first. Because Dye has more range than Konerko....miles more.
But he doesn't have the requisite offense for first base. So, if we want to play youngsters, which I agree we should (although not count on them - retain veteran depth), make a trade. That said, Dye's O is about as good in the key ingredient (power) as the names tossed around like Overbay or, ugh, Helton.

VivaOzzie
11-02-2005, 07:57 PM
Putting him at first would be wasting that arm, IMO. But I guess he'd be able to start one hell of a 3-6-1 DP! :rolleyes:

munchman33
11-02-2005, 08:01 PM
But he doesn't have the requisite offense for first base. So, if we want to play youngsters, which I agree we should (although not count on them - retain veteran depth), make a trade. That said, Dye's O is about as good in the key ingredient (power) as the names tossed around like Overbay or, ugh, Helton.

He hit 30 homers. That's plenty for first base.

cbrownson13
11-02-2005, 08:12 PM
Why can't he? He can and he has. I'm not saying that should be the answer for the White Sox, but it could certainly be a possibility. And a .274 AVG with 31HR's, and 86RBI's IS good enough numbers to play first base.

buehrle4cy05
11-02-2005, 08:45 PM
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not put JD at first. I said this in another thread, if he makes an error at first, there's a good chance he dwells on it. A hypothetical situation: We're playing Cleveland, up 1, and they have the bases loaded with 2 out. Screamer hit to Dye, he misplays it and 2 runs score. Bottom of the inning, Dye comes up with runners on second and third with 2 down. I think a few things could happen in this scenario:
A. Dye presses at the plate. Not good.
B. Dye starts to believe that he isn't a good first baseman and loses confidence. Once again, not good.
C. Dye starts to wonder why he was signed as a rightfielder and is now playing first base.

I know that JD would do what's best for the team, but it's basically impossible to not have these thoughts creep into your head.

Do not use JD as your first baseman. I agree with domeshot, case closed.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 08:50 PM
This absolutely drives me nuts, the idea we can let Paulie go, move Dye to first base and get an OF to hit for paulie's production

IF WE LOSE PAULIE WE BRING IN A NEW 1b

Dye played 1 game at first this year, and only because Paulie had played a good 30+ straight there.

case closed.I'm with you. I don't get it either.:dunno: It's not as simple as just standing there and waiting for someone to throw you the ball. The skill set is entirely different. You're 90 feet from home plate instead of 250. There's a premium on quick reflexes instead of speed. Scooping a ball thrown from 100' feet away out of the dirt is not anywhere close to any normal OF skills. It takes people years to learn to play the position properly. You don't just play a handfull of spring training games and expect to be proficient.

And why would you take someone with gold glove skills at one position and put him somewhere that he's going to be mediocre. Maybe in the future when his skills begin to erode, but not now.

antitwins13
11-02-2005, 09:16 PM
This absolutely drives me nuts, the idea we can let Paulie go, move Dye to first base and get an OF to hit for paulie's production

IF WE LOSE PAULIE WE BRING IN A NEW 1b

Dye played 1 game at first this year, and only because Paulie had played a good 30+ straight there.

case closed.


That's fine that you feel that way, but you should probably throw some names out of possible first baseman to get.

maurice
11-02-2005, 09:19 PM
once and for all Dye can not play first base. . . . case closed.

Once and for all, sure he can. Case closed.
:rolleyes:

Let me guess, those who think that 1B is "hard" played 1B in little league, right?

Actually, 1B is the easist position to play and requires the least skill. Dye can become a good 1B in one spring. Tons of MLB players with far less agility than Dye converted to 1B at the pro level, including Konerko. Many of them converted to reduce the risk of injury as they got older. (Dye absolutely is not a gold glove RF at this stage of his career.)

It's not written in stone. It's just an option, in case Konerko walks and the best available replacement is an OF who won't play 1B. It would be foolish for KW to limit his options based on the nonsensical notion that 1B is hard to play.

antitwins13
11-02-2005, 09:20 PM
Once and for all, sure he can. Case closed.
:rolleyes:

Let me guess, those who think that 1B is "hard" played 1B in little league, right?

Actually, 1B is the easist position to play and requires the least skill. Dye can become a good 1B in one spring. Tons of MLB players with far less agility than Dye converted to 1B at the pro level, including Konerko. Many of them converted to reduce the risk of injury as they got older.

It's not written in stone. It's just an option, in case Konerko walks and the best available replacement is an OF who won't play 1B. It would be foolish for KW to limit his options based on the nonsensical notion that 1B is hard to play.


I agree. It's hard to be a gold glove 1st baseman, but it is a position almost anybody can play. If you are a good enough athlete to make it to the majors, then you are a good enough athlete to play 1st. Case Closed!

Soxfanspcu11
11-02-2005, 09:33 PM
Because Dye has more range than Konerko....miles more.

Really? Dye obviously has a better arm, but you don't really need a gun playing first base. The only way I see Dye having more range then Paulie is in the fact that Dye is taller, and obviously has a longer wing-span that would allow him to get to more balls and that he is quicker than Paulie. But what Paulie lacks in speed, he more then makes up for in sheer skill. Aside from that foulball that was ruled fair in Minnesota, Paulie pretty much stabs anything hit at him. Line drives, choppers, grounds, hard-hit balls, balls that take funny bounces, anything.

I'm not saying JD wouldn't be a good first baseman, but I just don't have the confidence in him at first that I do in Paulie. JD should stay out in right, he has been VERY solid out there all year and personally, I don't like seeing anything change the make-up of the outfield.

I would take Pods, Rowand and Dye in the outfield over any other teams outfield. (The only thing I would "upgrade" if I could would be Pod's arm, if he had a gun like Row and JD, that outfield would be invincible, or darn near close).

hose
11-02-2005, 09:36 PM
If KW can't sign Paulie is Mancavitch in the works.....:o:

Banix12
11-02-2005, 10:32 PM
I'm not going to speak in absolutes on this. I think if given the work in spring training and given a little time he could become a good first baseman. I don't see it as a matter of he "can't" play first base.

The matter is do you want him to play first base. I think if you potentially have to replace Konerko and you can't find a suitable offensive substitute at 1b and can only find an OF, it's something to consider.

I hope it doesn't come to that, however I actually think Dye has had a few injuries, maybe he feels he is losing a step and a little versatility might help his career. Eventually it might be a move he wants to make. I don't think it's time for him yet but it's something he may think about.

I think he can play first base it's just in a perfect world it should never come to that. I can however envision a scenario where it can happen.

If Konerko leaves and KW can't work out a trade and the sox 1b options then become retreads like Travis Lee and JT Snow, bring on Dye.

Domeshot17
11-04-2005, 03:24 AM
Actually, 1B is the easist position to play and requires the least skill. Dye can become a good 1B in one spring. Tons of MLB players with far less agility than Dye converted to 1B at the pro level, including Konerko. Many of them converted to reduce the risk of injury as they got older

Case Point: Ask Mike Piazza how easy first base is. Moving to first base is easier for natural infielders, and a lot of outfielders because they are left handed and in college high school and in the minors split time between first and the OF.

First Base is one of the hardest positions to make a transition too, hardest being third. You are the same distance from third, you need to be able to stretch, scoop, adjust to throws, and be able to block wild throws. Its not as easy as stand on base, catch ball. The Reflexes it takes are diffeent from any position, and at Dyes age and all the work he has had in the OF, his reflexes are trained, and its hard to adjust. The same problem the reds had when they tried to move Austin KEarns, who like Dye(dye played half a dozen games at first in college) , had played a handful of games at third before being drafted. It was a disaster. Lance Berkamn is my key example. He filled in decently, but he missed about 20% of the balls in the dirt he got. thats almost 1 every 3 games. thas 10 extra errors a month, and a team that prides itself on defensive ability doesnt create that problem. Furthermore, Houston doesnt have the infield the Sox did, Crede makes diving plays, but Paulie scoops them out at the end. Uribe has a gun, but PK adjusts to the balls offline, same with Tadahito.

The Theory that Dye looked good for 1 game over there is also dumb. Dye also played an inning at short stop and didnt make any Errors, LETS MOVE HIM TO SHORT AND HAVE A TOP 3 OFFENSIVE SS. I would bet anything the idea of moving Dye to first for good, especially at how smart and sound of a defensive OF he is, has not crossed Kenny's or Ozzie's mind.

I know 1b are baseballs offensive lineman. You see defensive diving webgems, and think the scoop at the other end is easy, but its one of the toughest plays in baseball if you arent a natural firstbaseman. Its complete different to a normal short hop because you need to be able to hold your position and the base.

Offensively its even dumber of a move. PK to Dye = 10-12 less homers 30-40 less rbis. Anderson to dye= 5-10 less homers and even-20 less rbis(crapshoot). so at best you are looking at 12 less homers and 40 less rbis from 2 of the most offensive positions (and we kill 1 of the others for our lead off hitter), and at worst 22-60 rbis less. It doesnt work.

As to the question who would be available at first, Overbay is the fall back, a poor one, but hes there. Helton could be had, and probably under Paulie money because the rockies would eat 4-5 mil of it for 3-4 good prospects.

I know everyone wants these kids to come up and play, but it wont be until 2007, when Dye's contract is up, as well as Scottie's.

MrRoboto83
11-04-2005, 03:35 AM
If Paulie doesn't get signed I think Ross Gload should get his chance, I think Ross is capable of hitting .300 and 30HR if played all year, with Big Frank back healthy the lineup won't suffer for power.

maurice
11-04-2005, 02:43 PM
Case Point: Ask Mike Piazza how easy first base is.

Why did you completely ignore my example (Konerko)?

Lots of former catchers have switched to 1B at the pro level with no problem. Examples of current major-league 1B who converted from C at the pro level: Konerko, Delgado, Sweeney, LeCroy, and Hatteberg. (These are all IIRC, and off the top of my head.) There probably are more current examples, and there obviously are many more historical examples -- all righthanded. In other words, it happens all the time, but it doesn't help if the player is hostile to the change (Piazza).

Moving to first base is easier for natural infielders, and a lot of outfielders because they are left handed and in college high school and in the minors split time between first and the OF.

Yet, Dye is an OF who did play both 1B and OF in the minors and earlier, so your argument actually supports Dye to 1B. Besides, there is absolutely no evidence that an excellent athlete like Dye lacks the reflexes needed to adjust to offline throws. He's far more agile than Konerko (and the other former C), and certainly has the height to stretch.

The Theory that Dye looked good for 1 game over there is also dumb.

Who holds this "theory"?

its one of the toughest plays in baseball if you arent a natural firstbaseman.

Comparing scoops routinely made by lead-footed 1B to the toughest plays made by OF, SS, 3B, and 2B is ridiculous. Besides, there's no such thing as a "natural 1B." The position is manned entirely by people who aren't skilled enough to play more difficult positions. That's why players at skilled positions like C and SS are often switched to 1B, but a 1B never is switched to C or SS.

Offensively its even dumber of a move [to replace PK with Anderson].

Again, who holds this "theory"? Your calculus changes quite a bit if you substitue Anderson with, say, Brian Giles.

As to the question who would be available at first, Overbay is the fall back

If the choice is 1B Dye + RF Giles or RF Dye + 1B Overbay, I choose Giles. Obviously, Delgado or Helton would be lovely, but we don't know who's available yet. Again, it's stupid to limit your options to 1B, when you can easily expand them to include RF and even CF.

Banix12
11-04-2005, 03:11 PM
If Paulie doesn't get signed I think Ross Gload should get his chance, I think Ross is capable of hitting .300 and 30HR if played all year, with Big Frank back healthy the lineup won't suffer for power.

I think Gload hitting 30 HR would be a stretch, he's never shown that level of power at any time in the minors or majors. I think he could be a .300+ hitter but at the most given a full season of AB's I think he could possibly hit 20 HRs. Something in the 14-23 HR range seems in his capabilites.

If Frank could stay healthy all year I would agree with the no suffer for power statement, but that is a big question mark.

Randar68
11-04-2005, 03:28 PM
This absolutely drives me nuts, the idea we can let Paulie go, move Dye to first base and get an OF to hit for paulie's production

IF WE LOSE PAULIE WE BRING IN A NEW 1b

Dye played 1 game at first this year, and only because Paulie had played a good 30+ straight there.

case closed.

:whoflungpoo

So, an OF of Pods-Anderson-Giles with Dye at first and Frank at DH is not an acceptible solution in your mind if Konerko walks?

Dumbest post of the week by a longshot.

Randar68
11-04-2005, 03:31 PM
If the choice is 1B Dye + RF Giles or RF Dye + 1B Overbay, I choose Giles. Obviously, Delgado or Helton would be lovely, but we don't know who's available yet. Again, it's stupid to limit your options to 1B, when you can easily expand them to include RF and even CF.

Great post maurice.

Hangar18
11-04-2005, 03:33 PM
If Paulie doesn't get signed I think Ross Gload should get his chance, I think Ross is capable of hitting .300 and 30HR if played all year, with Big Frank back healthy the lineup won't suffer for power.

I would love that to be the case ..........

Tragg
11-04-2005, 03:35 PM
So, an OF of Pods-Anderson-Giles with Dye at first and Frank at DH is not an acceptible solution in your mind if Konerko walks?

Dumbest post of the week by a longshot.

That's an acceptable solution; it's a much better solution than giving up players for Helton. I wish we could trust Frank's health though.

Deuce
11-04-2005, 03:46 PM
Case Point: Ask Mike Piazza how easy first base is.

And you know what he will tell you? He'll say:

http://www.msbaseball.com/photogallery/NYM/mike_piazza/tn_It's%20obvious%20Mike%20Piazza%20plays%20baseba ll%20for%20the%20love%20of%20the%20game,%20just%20 like%20Kevin%20Costnar_jpg.jpg

"I'm not a first baseman, I'm a catcher."

But the truth is, he is neither. Piazza is a gloried DH, who remained a catcher only because he wanted the HR record (which he stole from Carlton Fisk in '04). Before he broke the record, the Mets wanted to turn him on to first base, but he refused. Now that he has the record, he could no longer refuse and the Mets forced him to play 1st on and off. Low and behold, he sucks at it. Its a bad example.

Deuce

JB98
11-04-2005, 09:38 PM
If Paulie doesn't get signed I think Ross Gload should get his chance, I think Ross is capable of hitting .300 and 30HR if played all year, with Big Frank back healthy the lineup won't suffer for power.

I think Ross is capable of hitting .260 with 10 HRs if he played all year. Maybe.

Dye is a good enough athlete to make the move to 1B if he has to. I just prefer that he not.

Mr. White Sox
11-04-2005, 09:46 PM
So, an OF of Pods-Anderson-Giles with Dye at first and Frank at DH is not an acceptible solution in your mind if Konerko walks?

Dumbest post of the week by a longshot.
Has Giles ever tried to play 1B? Who's better defensively in RF, Giles or Dye? Just wondering, I have no opinion on this matter yet.

Chips
11-04-2005, 10:17 PM
Putting him at first would be wasting that arm, IMO. But I guess he'd be able to start one hell of a 3-6-1 DP! :rolleyes:

His arm is great, the best in the outfield and I wouldn't want it at first base, but PK is going to resign so this is all unnecessary talk.

Vernam
11-04-2005, 10:17 PM
If Paulie doesn't get signed I think Ross Gload should get his chance, I think Ross is capable of hitting .300 and 30HR if played all year, with Big Frank back healthy the lineup won't suffer for power.That's an astounding statement, considering the most HRs Gload ever had in the minors was 18. :rolleyes:

Vernam

JB98
11-04-2005, 10:25 PM
That's an astounding statement, considering the most HRs Gload ever had in the minors was 18. :rolleyes:

Vernam

The FORG cannot be reasoned with. They ignore facts. They insist that Gload would be a stud if he played everyday on the grounds that he had a "strong September" in 2004.

Banix12
11-04-2005, 10:34 PM
Has Giles ever tried to play 1B? Who's better defensively in RF, Giles or Dye? Just wondering, I have no opinion on this matter yet.

Giles has never tried to play 1b. Both Giles and Dye have strong arms in the OF. No really glaring differences looking at the fielding stats. Giles had the better season in 2005 and looks like he historically has had slightly better range. He has also shown ability to play CF. Dye had 8 errors this season which was a career high.

Giles looks like he might have a slight edge defensively, but then again I haven't watched him in person enough to judge him completely.

JB98
11-04-2005, 10:35 PM
Giles has never tried to play 1b. Both Giles and Dye have strong arms in the OF. No really glaring differences looking at the fielding stats. Giles had the better season in 2005 and looks like he historically has had slightly better range. He has also shown ability to play CF. Dye had 8 errors this season which was a career high.

Giles looks like he might have a slight edge defensively, but then again I haven't watched him in person enough to judge him completely.

Regardless, I don't think Giles would sign with a team that intended to convert him to a 1B.

CLR01
11-04-2005, 11:18 PM
The FORG cannot be reasoned with. They ignore facts. They insist that Gload would be a stud if he played everyday on the grounds that he had a "strong September" in 2004.



Their RG love is only surpassed by their Tony G. love.

Vernam
11-05-2005, 02:32 AM
Their RG love is only surpassed by their Tony G. love.You're onto something . . . Let's trade Gload to Boston so he can make a key error that helps us win the 2006 ALDS. :redneck

Vernam

MrRoboto83
11-05-2005, 08:22 AM
You're onto something . . . Let's trade Gload to Boston so he can make a key error that helps us win the 2006 ALDS. :redneck

Vernam


Or sign Tony G to play first next year would solve all our problems:o:

JB98
11-05-2005, 01:16 PM
Their RG love is only surpassed by their Tony G. love.

I had no problem with Tony G. in the role of fifth infielder. When you put him in a starting role, that's when he becomes exposed. (See ALDS, Game 2) It's no different with RG. He's an OK left-handed stick off the bench. Put him in a starting role, and he'll struggle. It's truly laughable that some think he would post All-Star numbers "if the Sox would just give him a chance." I'll pass. I'd rather try to sign Konerko, thank you very much.

Fans just have a tendency to fall in love with backup players. It's no different in football. The backup QB is the most popular player on many teams.

Domeshot17
11-06-2005, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by maurice
If the choice is 1B Dye + RF Giles or RF Dye + 1B Overbay, I choose Giles. Obviously, Delgado or Helton would be lovely, but we don't know who's available yet. Again, it's stupid to limit your options to 1B, when you can easily expand them to include RF and even CF.


Im not opposed to adding an OF, but if you do, move pods to the DH spot. Giles Rowand Dye would be the best defensive OF in the game. There is just a lot more solutions than move Dye to first. I think its a last ditch move if any. Right now, the lineup has 2(maybe 3 holes depending on how Crede works out). Dh and 1b. If you move Pods to DH, just for the reason that if giles signed here, all 3 would be far superior defensively, and can land a solid 1b. I also think you might see Jermaine Dye oppose a full time move to first base. I know he is a whats best for the team guy, but coming into a contract year, His Agent is going to be in his ear telling him thewre is more of a market for a 30 home run gold glove RF than a 30 home run average defense 1b.

I respect the man a lot, If I didn't, I wouldn't be so opposed to moving him to first. He is one of the smartest outfielders in the game, I dont't remember if anyone remembers, but in game 4 WS, there was a ball hit off the wall, that it looked like he stood there waiting for it to be a homer at first, but he knew the carumn and almost nailed the runner at 2b.

I think, if the hands were tied, he could play it. But I think hes such a waste over there. Everytime I keep thinking of Dye at first 2 thoughts come to mind.

Crede dives for a ball, grabs it, fires it to first, balls in the dirt, and it handcuffs Dye.

up 1, bottom 8, Medium Fly ball hit to (random OF) in Right, and runner is safe. Dye has a top 5 arm in the OF.

Would we be having this talk about Crede, we know he can handle SS, he was one before moving to third in the minors, he has played there in pinches before, and handles those balls and throws when the shift is on. If Uribe was leaving, and the ratio of good 3rd to good SS was in the 3b favor, would we be willing to move Crede to short instead of leaving him where he is.

My thinking is bias I know, Ive been taught my entire life dont fix something that is not broke, and Dye is surely not Broke in the OF.

Domeshot17
11-06-2005, 01:11 AM
just a quick response to Maurice, counter point to his arguements

Lots of former catchers have switched to 1B at the pro level with no problem. Examples of current major-league 1B who converted from C at the pro level: Konerko, Delgado, Sweeney, LeCroy, and Hatteberg. (These are all IIRC, and off the top of my head.) There probably are more current examples, and there obviously are many more historical examples -- all righthanded. In other words, it happens all the time, but it doesn't help if the player is hostile to the change (Piazza).

Delgado=Butcher at first base, Sweeney is mostly a DH, LeCroy is a DH and another butcher, Hatterberg and Konerko worked out. Piazza was a bad example, because he wanted to be the best hitting C ever, not one of the better tier of hitting 1b. Catchers to First is much more commong, because of the fundementals. Taught to keep your body and your glove down, work the glove low and handle short hops. OF are taught to stay back and play a bigger hop, and keep the glove up when they dive, not down. the footwork for 1b is entirely different than OF, and all the examples where poor Catchers, when is the last time a very good OF has moved to first.(Berkman works, but he was never a great defender, and often was substitued late in the game defensively).

Yet, Dye is an OF who did play both 1B and OF in the minors and earlier, so your argument actually supports Dye to 1B. Besides, there is absolutely no evidence that an excellent athlete like Dye lacks the reflexes needed to adjust to offline throws. He's far more agile than Konerko (and the other former C), and certainly has the height to stretch.


Dye played a handful of games, my point was most OF/1b split time, play half and half, a lot because they have a future at one of the positions. I know Dye played some first base, but I just wonder how good was that 1b if he strictly became an OF. Its a position the man hasnt played in 10 years, it will not be pretty with him at first.

Comparing scoops routinely made by lead-footed 1B to the toughest plays made by OF, SS, 3B, and 2B is ridiculous. Besides, there's no such thing as a "natural 1B." The position is manned entirely by people who aren't skilled enough to play more difficult positions. That's why players at skilled positions like C and SS are often switched to 1B, but a 1B never is switched to C or SS.
Very Untrue all around. Comparing Scoops to Lead Footed is like apples and oranges. Speed and the softness and relexes of a players hands are different, Paulie key example. The Scoop an OF makes and a SS or 3b is different than one at first, because the feet cant move. The adjustment to the ball comes from the reflexes of the hands and eyes and bending of the knees. Much Different from OF because they are allowed to do whatever it takes to keep a ball infront of them, and bend at the waist more on a short hop when coming up and throwing. Dye probably hasnt had 100 balls hit to him at irst in 10 years of practice. A team priding itself on defense takes a hit with Dye at first.
Quote:
Offensively its even dumber of a move [to replace PK with Anderson].


Again, who holds this "theory"? Your calculus changes quite a bit if you substitue Anderson with, say, Brian Giles.


Quote:
As to the question who would be available at first, Overbay is the fall back


If the choice is 1B Dye + RF Giles or RF Dye + 1B Overbay, I choose Giles. Obviously, Delgado or Helton would be lovely, but we don't know who's available yet. Again, it's stupid to limit your options to 1B, when you can easily expand them to include RF and even CF

Good point, I looked at Giles and a few other OF as potential DH's, IF we got Giles, I move podsednik to the DH, because his arm is below average, and Giles is an amazing fielder. My comments on Anderson were more aimed at the arguements let the kids play. IMO, Anderson is the 4th OF this year, and becomes the RF in 2007.

I just don't think it's as easy as expanding options to look at CF and RF. Giles will get a ton, not as long term of a deal, but the Cardinals need OF, the Yankees need a CF, Boston Needs OF, and Giles is the premiere option. So if he gets 10 a year, why not pay the extra 2.5 a year for better D and more production. I agree, the 1b market is horribly slim, but with so many holes, why try and force something that you don't know will work. Unless its a clear upgrade over Dye.

I have 2 wild card guesses as who we get if Paulie Leaves, and keep in mind, IF we lose Paulie, we can afford to ship 3 prospects off for a good replacement because we will get compensation picks. I know its too early to speculate, but I just hate moving a great defender in the OF to first, especially when I think it could hurt Uribe and Crede.
2 guys that could be on Kennys Radar: Adam Dunn, who played a lot of first before moving the OF for the reds, and Jason Bay, who Pitt may move to get DEEPER in talent. 2 long shots, but probably no longer then Dye at first.

Banix12
11-06-2005, 02:50 AM
when is the last time a very good OF has moved to first.(Berkman works, but he was never a great defender, and often was substitued late in the game defensively).

Shawn Green.
Gold Glove OF 1999. played 111 games at 1st in 2004.
5 errors in 937 total chances, fielding percentage of .995

Domeshot17
11-06-2005, 04:08 AM
very good example Banix, another one I forgot was Darrin Erstad, I apologize for this, just had back surgery, kinda laid up, so its easy to vent all my anger on those who want Dye at first lol. Sorry for the last question, its been done before and worked, I just see Dye different as I do Green and Erstad.

Mr. White Sox
11-06-2005, 04:13 AM
very good example Banix, another one I forgot was Darrin Erstad, I apologize for this, just had back surgery, kinda laid up, so its easy to vent all my anger on those who want Dye at first lol. Sorry for the last question, its been done before and worked, I just see Dye different as I do Green and Erstad.

I'm just wondering...what do you see differently between Green and Dye? Both were GG-Caliber RF's at one point with strong arms and good range. Dye seems to have great coordination in the outfield, even if he's lost a few steps.
I still don't have a major opinion on Dye moving to 1B, but I'm sure it could be done if necessary.

Deuce
11-06-2005, 08:38 AM
Im not opposed to adding an OF, but if you do, move pods to the DH spot.
You're joking, right? I mean, why in the world would you give up on having a power-hitter in the DH spot for Pods? That would completely kill the formula KW has employed to win us a World Championship. Each player and position has a job. Pods' job is to get on base, and set himself up for the #3 or #4 batter to bring him in. We need a power-hitter in the #3 spot and a good clean up hitter in the #4 spot to get that done. We don't have any power-hitters for the #3 spot right now, and we may not have a #4 clean up guy if we lose Paulie. DH is our best option to fill the #3 spot, so just giving it away to Pods is not going to solve anything.

Deuce

Domeshot17
11-07-2005, 01:11 AM
Duece you missed the entire thing I said that if you get a power hitter like Giles and end up keeping paulie, move Pods to DH because he is the weakest fielder. Giles is superior defensively, and GILES-ROWAND-DYE OF is more defensively sound than one with Pods and Giles DH'ing. I agree DH's are normally power hitters, but if you have a superior defender and power hitter at pods position, not use pods as a DH as long as the LF can hit for power numbers

Banix12
11-07-2005, 01:32 AM
Duece you missed the entire thing I said that if you get a power hitter like Giles and end up keeping paulie, move Pods to DH because he is the weakest fielder. Giles is superior defensively, and GILES-ROWAND-DYE OF is more defensively sound than one with Pods and Giles DH'ing. I agree DH's are normally power hitters, but if you have a superior defender and power hitter at pods position, not use pods as a DH as long as the LF can hit for power numbers

Yeah, and it's not like it would be the first time a DH was the leadoff man, Chuck Knoblauch did it quite a bit after his arm troubles.

It's just not a common move because the stathead analysts come out and blast you for it. Just like how they blasted the sox this season for having Pods in left. "When you compare the sox to other teams they win even though they have a below average offensive left fielder, he has the worst OPS for a left fielder in all of baseball." Just change OF to DH and you'll have it. "DH is a power position and Pods just doesn't have it, he has the lowest OPS of any DH in all of Baseball"

maurice
11-07-2005, 02:41 PM
just a quick response to Maurice, counter point to his arguements

That word "quick" . . . I don't think it means what you think it means. :D:

Im not opposed to adding an OF, but if you do, move pods to the DH spot. Giles Rowand Dye would be the best defensive OF in the game. . . . If you move Pods to DH, just for the reason that if giles signed here, all 3 would be far superior defensively, and can land a solid 1b.

Again, you're handcuffing your options for no good reason. If you're open to the possibility of moving Dye to 1B and keeping Podsednik in LF, you can sign the best hitter at any position (or even no position) and stick the new guy at DH. It's stupid to limit yourself.

Crede dives for a ball, grabs it, fires it to first, balls in the dirt, and it handcuffs Dye.

Again, there's no reason to think he'd do any worse than any Konerko replacement that KW is likely to acquire.

up 1, bottom 8, Medium Fly ball hit to (random OF) in Right, and runner is safe. Dye has a top 5 arm in the OF.

How about fly ball down the line that Dye can't reach and allows to get past him because he's getting older. Remember, Dye committed 8 errors in RF last year. He's not the young Gold Glover he used to be. If arm were the only consideration, Timo Perez would be considered an elite defender. Besides, KW would not stick a noodle arm in RF. Worst case scenario would be somebody like Anderson or Rowand, who have strong arms and far more range. Giles is similar.

Would we be having this talk about Crede, we know he can handle SS . . . .

*** does this have to do with anything? Crede's not going to be moved to SS, because SS is harder than 3B. OTOH, SS are moved to 3B all of the time. Using only current Sox as an example, Uribe could (and has) played a good 3B. Similarly, Dye can move to 1B, because it's an easier position than OF.

Catchers to First is much more commong, because of the fundementals.

No, C to 1B is common, because many C are too slow to play a more demanding position than 1B. The relatively rare "toolsy" catcher gets moved to a more demanding position than 1B (Surhoff, Biggio, etc.).

the footwork for 1b is entirely different than OF

True, if "different" is code for "significantly less demanding."

all the examples where poor Catchers

Well, yeah. If they were good C they never would have been moved to a significantly less demanding position (1B). You're also arguing as if they'll just hand Dye a 1B glove on opening day and send him over there. He'd actually have the entire spring (and probably longer) to practice. By your own admission, poor athletes have made this transition successfully at the pro level. There's absolutely no reason to believe that a good athlete like Dye would struggle.

apples and oranges.

LMAO! You're the once who compared defensive plays by 1B to defensive plays at more demanding positions. Apples and oranges? More like pesos (1B plays) v. U.S. dollars (great plays at other positions).

Giles will get a ton, not as long term of a deal, but the Cardinals need OF, the Yankees need a CF, Boston Needs OF, and Giles is the premiere option.

It appears that Konerko will get more years and more money than Giles. That's my point of reference. Ideally, I'll take both of them and make this entire discussion moot.
:gulp:

So if [Giles] gets 10 a year, why not pay the extra 2.5 a year for better D and more production.

Pay "the extra 2.5 a year" to whom? Konerko?

First, I want both, but I'm not sure that either of them are going to be here in 2006. Konerko at $12.5 / year seems unlikely at this point. Obviously, Dye to 1B is a contingency plan that only applies if Konerko doesn't return and his replacement won't play 1B. Second, I'm obviously not convinced by your argument that there is a huge defensive dropoff. Heck, Giles / Dye is potentially better defensively than Dye / Konerko, but we'll probably never find out for sure. Third and most significantly, Giles is better offensively than Konerko, and he'll probably cost less money. That's extremely attractive. (Giles probably would be even better at the Cell, and Konerko probably will be worse outside of the Cell).

Bottom Line: Dye to 1B is not likely, but it's foolish to limit yourself by pretending that it's not even an option.

Deuce
11-07-2005, 03:38 PM
Duece you missed the entire thing I said that if you get a power hitter like Giles and end up keeping paulie, move Pods to DH because he is the weakest fielder. Giles is superior defensively, and GILES-ROWAND-DYE OF is more defensively sound than one with Pods and Giles DH'ing. I agree DH's are normally power hitters, but if you have a superior defender and power hitter at pods position, not use pods as a DH as long as the LF can hit for power numbers

You should deep pink your entire post then, because there is no way the Sox can afford resigning Paulie AND pick up Giles. And even if they did, the Sox would have to trade Rowand to free up the money it would take to get Giles, so your Giles-Rowand-Dye formula is even less likely. Either way, this possibility is too far out to even worry about.

Deuce

Randar68
11-07-2005, 04:09 PM
You should deep pink your entire post then, because there is no way the Sox can afford resigning Paulie AND pick up Giles. And even if they did, the Sox would have to trade Rowand to free up the money it would take to get Giles, so your Giles-Rowand-Dye formula is even less likely. Either way, this possibility is too far out to even worry about.

On what planet?

What do you project:
1) The Sox payroll to be in 2006?
2) Konerko's deal to be for 2006 salary?
3) Giles to command in FA?

We've been through this, Deuce. They could add 2 big salaries (including Konerko as one of them) and still be around 85 million without trading anyone.

You want to add a 3rd guy and we'll have to start talking about Rowand, El Duque, Marte, Uribe, etc.

Besides, if replacing Rowand with Anderson is what it will take to fit Giles into our payroll, you'd have to be high, drunk, and whacked to not do it.

Deuce
11-07-2005, 05:07 PM
We've been through this, Deuce. They could add 2 big salaries (including Konerko as one of them) and still be around 85 million without trading anyone.
Yeah, I saw the monster thread. Lots of people don't seem to agree with you on your numbers, Randar, though I admit I am not one to argue the math either way. Resembles work too much, and I don't get paid for this.

You are right though. My stating that there was "no way the Sox could afford" both players was definately an overstatement. What I should have said was that the prospect of adding Giles, who made over $8 mil this year (and will surely command more in a new contract), and resigning Konerko (who appears to be commanding anywhere between $12-15 mil) and resigning Frank (which I believe will happen given his relationship with Jerry) and keeping the team we have seems unlikely enough to warrant deep pink. It's possible, and preferable, but it's not likely. And when it does not happen, you can bet the old excuse of the budget will rear it's evil head.

We have to take into consideration that most big name contracts last more than one year. Its not enough to see if it will fit in today's budget, but how it will fit into next year's budget, and the year after, and so on. For 2006, we didn't have much to worry about except resigning Paulie. But thats not the case in 2007 and 2008, etc., which is something Jerry and KW do worry about. So, just because you can work out the math for one season doesn't mean its an economically viable deal.

Besides, if replacing Rowand with Anderson is what it will take to fit Giles into our payroll, you'd have to be high, drunk, and whacked to not do it.
I never said it would be a bad idea, just that we would not have Giles/Rowand/Dye out there. To get Giles, we would most definately get rid of either Rowand or Anderson. Given Rowand's salary, it would most likely be him, IMO. That would "free up" that "necessary" cash to get Giles.

Deuce

Domeshot17
11-08-2005, 02:27 AM
Since I started this BS thread, I will try to end the arguement now.

While I was wrong for saying Dye Can not play first base, I still believe it should be the last option visited, I have never liked playing players out of position, because I think it can hurt the entire team.

I think 1b is still not an easy position to adjust too, and that is why more washed up players move to DH and not 1b. It might not be as hard as I make it, but I know it takes an amazing amount of footwork to adjust, because of plays like 1 hop shots, when to go make your own hop, when to go to a knee, when to go inside and outside and how on a DP, ETC. that being said, dye is a professional, and he should be able to make the adjustment.

Dye did make 8 errors, though I believe 2 or 3 came in that horrid game in KC, I sitll think he defensively is in the top tier of RF.

I have heard Gammons and others say Reinsdorf is seriously considering pushing payroll near 90. He did it with the bulls during the championships, and I think his taste of victory in chicago will make him want another one.

(not sure if this warrents teal or pink, but you get the idea) IMHO, if payroll can hit 90, carl leaving takes 4.5 off the books, that is paulies raise to 13 if he wants it, its there. my thinking is that Garland-Crede-AJ raises push payroll combined about 9-10 mil. BUT, keep in mind players like ben davis, and atleast timos 2005 salary of 1 mil each come off the books. Timo may be back for 400K or so, but I would rather give gload the roll.

So after all the raises and salary taken off, I think you look at about 83 in payroll, maybe less depending on how KW decides to handle El Duque(expensive long reliever, or trade him). That leaves nearly 7 mil to go get a DH, someone like possibly Aubrey Huff, Glaus, maybe even Giles, and at worst someone like Reggie Sanders or even Carl coming back.

that being said if we got someone like Giles, and we have a 1b(Konerko Overbay Helton Sweeney whoever), I think the worst defensive OF ( in most cases Pods) becomes the DH. It will be an unpopular move by far with the critics, but so was our entire 2005 season.

Sorry to Maurice for getting into it with you, The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of our arguements, as is the case with most things.

Randar68
11-08-2005, 10:34 AM
We have to take into consideration that most big name contracts last more than one year. Its not enough to see if it will fit in today's budget, but how it will fit into next year's budget, and the year after, and so on. For 2006, we didn't have much to worry about except resigning Paulie. But thats not the case in 2007 and 2008, etc., which is something Jerry and KW do worry about. So, just because you can work out the math for one season doesn't mean its an economically viable deal.

Lots of people told me the numbers didn't work, but I put them on the table and everyone pretty much stopped talking about it.

In addition, the Sox have a considerable number of contracts expiring over the next 3 years. Some are big pitching related ocntracts, others are not. Dye, Iguchi, Hermanson, El Duque and Contreras have expiring contracts after 2006.

Yes, it depends on what you want to do, and we know Kenny has his big board of salaries and prospects and where they fit over the next 5+ years. Giles is a VERY feasible option IF they can convince him to leave the west coast. The contract he signed was based on hitting 30-40 HR's a year in Pittsburg. He may not command any more than his current salary given his age and numbers last year.

I think he'd be a 30-40 HR hitter with a .400+ OBP in USCF so I do think he's worth 8-12 million a year to the Sox if they chose to pursue him, but I don't think he'll make much more than about 9 million a year on any contract he signs. Other than Anaheim, the Sox offer him the best chance to win a World Series.

Domeshot17
11-08-2005, 11:22 AM
Agreed Randar, I did the same thing talking about ALL the money coming off the books in a different Konerko/off season thread and it turned out to be quite a bit.

I would say though, another team who does offer Gile serious chance to get to a world series is St.Louis, still one of the better all around teams in the NL. He will be coveted highly. Read Matsui was interested in the White Sox, I like him as a DH, I also have a feeling the Griffey talks may be revisited now that the reds have stabelized ownership.

Kenny though always seems to do the unexpected, and makes most of his big moves through trades, and I don't know why, but I just keep thinking you might see Jason Bay in a white sox uniform.