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StrTrkker
10-31-2005, 11:44 AM
I was sent this via email thru Whitesox.com:

To all of Chicago,

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Friday's city-wide celebration of a World Series title so far surpassed our expectations that we were left speechless -- which is saying a lot for Ozzie Guillen.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Friday's city-wide celebration of a World Series title so far surpassed our expectations that we were left speechless -- which is saying a lot for Ozzie Guillen.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/cws/images/email/y2005/postseason/101105/275x170_parade2.jpg (http://click.mlb.com/ct/click?q=b5-50FcQ7UYvBudB_91P3I_5FKWPZPR)
http://mlb.mlb.com/images/trans.gifAll along the parade route, through several of Chicago's neighborhoods and up LaSalle Street, fans cheered our players for such a magical season. You showered our team with ticker tape, appreciation and love. But we should be thanking you. None of this would have been possible without the loyal support of our great Sox fans. You truly are World Champions.

Thanks, as well, to Mayor Daley and the city of Chicago for pulling off such a world class celebration of nearly 2 million people in a matter of hours. Chicago really can throw a party.

Enjoy this World Series Championship, Chicago. Celebrate. After 88 long years of waiting, you deserve it.

Jerry Reinsdorf

antitwins13
10-31-2005, 12:09 PM
:selljerry just kidding!

NonetheLoaiza
10-31-2005, 05:57 PM
Amazing how the mood and feelings towards one owner can change with a World Series win, and success. I was one who was not a Reinsdorf fan, but did not really hate him, and I'm not calling out anyone who hated him in the past. Sox fans just want results from their teams. When you go 88 years without a World Series win, you are going to be a little sour at anyone and everyone in the organization. I am glad Jerry is getting some love now, because he really does deserve it. Congrats Jerry.

SoxFanSince67
10-31-2005, 06:20 PM
My overall opinions of Jerry have changed. The post season spotlight showed him to be a man who truely loves the game of baseball, and the White Sox whereas, he had always been sterotyped, at least in my opinion, as just a cold hearted businessman. I saw something completely different.

DickAllen72
10-31-2005, 06:35 PM
You're welcome, Jerry!

Now how's about bumping up the payroll to about $100M so we can finally take over this town. :gulp:

zach074
10-31-2005, 07:26 PM
Thank you Jerry!:bandance:

FielderJones
10-31-2005, 07:38 PM
Now how's about bumping up the payroll to about $100M so we can finally take over this town.

Didn't KW just prove that it's not how much you spend, it's how smart you spend? Bumping up the payroll 25% isn't necessarily going to guarantee another championship.

And didn't this team just prove that you can win without marketable superstars? A team pulling for each other and in the same direction, without ego, was able to do what the $200MM Yankee$ could not.

DickAllen72
10-31-2005, 07:58 PM
Now's the time to add, not to subtract.

Didn't the 86 Bears prove that?

It will cost a big bump in salary just to bring everyone back. On top of that, getting that left handed bat KW has been after will push the payroll even higher.

DrCrawdad
10-31-2005, 10:17 PM
My overall opinions of Jerry have changed. The post season spotlight showed him to be a man who truely loves the game of baseball, and the White Sox whereas, he had always been sterotyped, at least in my opinion, as just a cold hearted businessman. I saw something completely different.

Me too.

MISoxfan
10-31-2005, 10:20 PM
Who says we can't intelligently spend that extra 25%?

antitwins13
10-31-2005, 10:24 PM
Who says we can't intelligently spend that extra 25%?

That's true, you can still spend intelligently with a high payroll.

gobears1987
11-01-2005, 12:02 AM
Who says we can't intelligently spend that extra 25%?I think it's good to raise payroll that much. That will pay for Frank, raises for Garland, Crede, Jenks, Konerko, AJ, and maybe another lefty

A.T. Money
11-01-2005, 12:04 AM
I'm still waiting for Lip to give Jerry some props.

cheeses_h_rice
11-01-2005, 12:07 AM
Memo to Jerry:

Want a surefire, guaranteed repeat in 2006?

Your answer:

:nandrolone

:wink:

FarWestChicago
11-01-2005, 12:17 AM
I'm still waiting for Lip to give Jerry some props.Don't hold your breath. There has been no Dark Cloud 'fessing or apologizing from him so far. :redneck

SOXintheBURGH
11-01-2005, 12:21 AM
:worship: :reinsy

34 Inch Stick
11-01-2005, 10:45 AM
I am very gratefull to the entire organization for the victory.

That being said, after 25 years it was getting to the point of statistical probability that JR would eventually win one. Let's not forget that close to a third of those 88 years of futility were spent under JR's watch.
I do believe he is a great businessman. He is fiscally conservative with the team and always seems to turn a profit for his coinvestors (and has on all of his ventures in and out of the sports world). He is looked to as a leader among millionaires. I don't know if that makes him a great owner from the fans perspective. Also, I don't think there is anything that I can point to in his ownership style that changed so as to set it apart from the other 24 years. That leads me to say he was along for the ride on this one.

DenverSock
11-01-2005, 12:34 PM
I am very gratefull to the entire organization for the victory.

That being said, after 25 years it was getting to the point of statistical probability that JR would eventually win one. Let's not forget that close to a third of those 88 years of futility were spent under JR's watch.
I do believe he is a great businessman. He is fiscally conservative with the team and always seems to turn a profit for his coinvestors (and has on all of his ventures in and out of the sports world). He is looked to as a leader among millionaires. I don't know if that makes him a great owner from the fans perspective. Also, I don't think there is anything that I can point to in his ownership style that changed so as to set it apart from the other 24 years. That leads me to say he was along for the ride on this one.

Here's hoping his business acumen helps pay for a second championship!

hawkjt
11-01-2005, 12:44 PM
Look, I have always felt like Jerry wanted to win, and when it was realistic he gave his GM's the ability to go get a player to get us over the top. I really do not think they have made much money off the sox. If you read the article on the other owners they have all said that they just want breakeven and do not look to the sox as an investment.

Sure a mark cuban would be cool - ie -unlimited willingness to absorb operating losses- but I would rather have a smart businessman than a dumb one running the sox. Not saying cuban is dumb but am saying that since he isnt buying the sox we are stuck with a choice of an astute limited resource owner or a not so astute limited resource owner- I take jerry in that case.

But I do hope they bring this team back pretty much intact and with Frank.

It is the one time you throw the budget out the window and give the fans another year to show their appreciation for this team. Then if we lose - break it up.

kevin57
11-01-2005, 03:36 PM
You're welcome, Jerry!

Now how's about bumping up the payroll to about $100M so we can finally take over this town. :gulp:

Yeah, we can see how a larger payroll has helped the other team in town's success.

livewir
11-01-2005, 04:24 PM
What has Jerry done to deserve all this love? Nothing.:angry: All the kudos should be going to Kenny Williams and Ozzie. They are the ones who put together the winning team with the limited budget. Lets not forget that Jerry was a large factor in 94 labor dispute among other blunders that have helped reduce attendance and fan loyalty to this team since he bought it.




LW

pudge
11-01-2005, 04:35 PM
Jayson Stark was still ripping on JR the morning after here on the local station. Oh well, whatever. I for one have always been in his corner - how can you blame the entire '94 strike on one person? There were a lot of villans in 1994, and not all of them were owners, either. The move to cable was dumb, but also proved to be ahead of its time, so maybe it wasn't so dumb.

Anyway, I couldn't care less now anyway, we got the ring.

NonetheLoaiza
11-01-2005, 04:35 PM
What has Jerry done to deserve all this love? Nothing.:angry: All the kudos should be going to Kenny Williams and Ozzie. They are the ones who put together the winning team with the limited budget. Lets not forget that Jerry was a large factor in 94 labor dispute among other blunders that have helped reduce attendance and fan loyalty to this team since he bought it.




LW

IIRC, Reinsdorf signs the checks, so to speak. And also, he was extremely influential in getting KW and Ozzie both in the management positions that they are in. He also increased the payroll this past year, if I'm not mistaken. So to summarize, he has done alot to deserve all the love.

DickAllen72
11-01-2005, 04:43 PM
Yeah, we can see how a larger payroll has helped the other team in town's success.

That's very clever.

If the Sox start losing players solely because the payroll is not increased, not only will they lose on the field but at the box office as well. The Sox have finally started to win over this town, and they shouldn't blow this opportunity.

Just keeping the current team intact is going to require a substantial increase in the payroll, and adding that LH bat they've been looking for is going to cost even more. Now's the time to add, not subtract. See the '86 Bears.

The Sox are going to see a jump in revenues due to the World Series Title. They can afford to reinvest in payroll. They can't afford not to.

Chisox003
11-01-2005, 04:48 PM
What has Jerry done to deserve all this love? Nothing.:angry: All the kudos should be going to Kenny Williams and Ozzie. They are the ones who put together the winning team with the limited budget. Lets not forget that Jerry was a large factor in 94 labor dispute among other blunders that have helped reduce attendance and fan loyalty to this team since he bought it.


Ya, no kidding. JR deserves absolutely zero credit here. I mean, afterall, he only hired those 2 guys to run his championship-less team. Setting a standard and hiring the only African-American GM in baseball, then following that by entrusting his own future with this team in the hands of the first Venezuelan born manager deserves absolutely no "kudos."

Please :rolleyes:

34 Inch Stick
11-01-2005, 06:08 PM
IIRC, Reinsdorf signs the checks, so to speak. And also, he was extremely influential in getting KW and Ozzie both in the management positions that they are in. He also increased the payroll this past year, if I'm not mistaken. So to summarize, he has done alot to deserve all the love.

Hiring KW as a GM at that time was the absolute wrong move. He did not have the experience/credentials for the job and it showed for at least 3 years. He could have gained that experience in a position similar to assistant GM without severely disabeling a division winning franchise.

Ozzie won a championship. I will not bash him right now. However, you will not convince me that he is a superior manager.

He raised payroll to an average level for an MLB team. Nothing magical in that move.

I think people need to be able to seperate relation from corelation. JR is the owner of a championship baseball team. JR is not the cause of that team being a champion.

34 Inch Stick
11-01-2005, 06:10 PM
I really do not think they have made much money off the sox. If you read the article on the other owners they have all said that they just want breakeven and do not look to the sox as an investment.
.

Please tell me you do not really believe this. Even being run at a loss it is a great tax right off, especially because they know the appreciation of the team is money in the bank.

Don't believe for a second that JR operates this team simply as a vanity position.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 06:26 PM
Please tell me you do not really believe this. Even being run at a loss it is a great tax right off, especially because they know the appreciation of the team is money in the bank.

Don't believe for a second that JR operates this team simply as a vanity position.You couldn't be further from the truth. A little economics:

This is the first year they've made any significant profits - mainly attributable to post-season revenues. Forbes analyses indicate profits for recent years in the neighborhood of $5M a year. For an investment valued at $300M, that's a pitiful 1.7% return. Any corporate CEO would be immediately fired for producing that poor of a return. You could do better buying a CD at your local bank.

Losses cannot be turned into gains by tax write-offs. They only reduce the loss, but it's still a loss.

The appreciation on the value is not "money in the bank". It's not money anywhere. It's an asset. They bought the team for $20M back in 1981. Given a value of $300M today, that's a 10%/year increase in value. It's exactly the same as the increase in the S&P500 over the same period. Hardly a whiz-bang investment.

Reinsdorf made his money in real estate. The other owners also did quite well for themselves before they became owners of the White Sox. It's certain that they made much larger returns on their investments in their other businesses. To think that they're in this for the money is ludicrous.

Daver
11-01-2005, 07:11 PM
Hiring KW as a GM at that time was the absolute wrong move. He did not have the experience/credentials for the job and it showed for at least 3 years. He could have gained that experience in a position similar to assistant GM without severely disabeling a division winning franchise.


I completely disagree.

In five years, he turned the mess he was left by Ron Schueler into a World Championship team, he was exactly the right choice for the job.

Vernam
11-01-2005, 08:42 PM
If you can judge a man by the company he keeps, consider the following people who seem to think quite highly of JR:

Ken Williams
Roland Hemond
Ozzie Guillen
Harold Baines
Greg Walker

I'd go into battle with any one of those guys. For that matter, look at the character of players they've surrounded themselves with, too.

Or judge him by his main antagonist, Moronoti, who represents all that's wrong with modern media and sports. I think JR is a principled person, and sometimes those principles have been unappreciated or easily caricatured. Maybe he realized a little belatedly that public perception of him matters, but I still don't think it matters to him anywhere near so much as running a solvent team and winning championships -- in that order. After so many Chicago owners who did neither, I'll take JR any day.

Vernam

Vernam
11-01-2005, 08:46 PM
In five years, he (KW) turned the mess he was left by Ron Schueler into a World Championship team, he was exactly the right choice for the job.Yeah, the hiring of Schueler was JR's biggest error, IMO. It prompted Torborg's departure, which squandered the best years of Frank, Ventura, and others. What happened in 2005 might have happened at least 10 years sooner if not for Schueler.

Vernam

NonetheLoaiza
11-01-2005, 10:19 PM
I think people need to be able to seperate relation from corelation. JR is the owner of a championship baseball team. JR is not the cause of that team being a champion.

Sole cause, no. Part of the cause, absolutely.

DenverSock
11-01-2005, 11:25 PM
You couldn't be further from the truth. A little economics:

This is the first year they've made any significant profits - mainly attributable to post-season revenues. Forbes analyses indicate profits for recent years in the neighborhood of $5M a year. For an investment valued at $300M, that's a pitiful 1.7% return. Any corporate CEO would be immediately fired for producing that poor of a return. You could do better buying a CD at your local bank.

Losses cannot be turned into gains by tax write-offs. They only reduce the loss, but it's still a loss.

The appreciation on the value is not "money in the bank". It's not money anywhere. It's an asset. They bought the team for $20M back in 1981. Given a value of $300M today, that's a 10%/year increase in value. It's exactly the same as the increase in the S&P500 over the same period. Hardly a whiz-bang investment.

Reinsdorf made his money in real estate. The other owners also did quite well for themselves before they became owners of the White Sox. It's certain that they made much larger returns on their investments in their other businesses. To think that they're in this for the money is ludicrous.

One tiny cavil from your post which I've quoted not only because I agree but because I think it's important; and that is that it's a lesson in
finance not economics. What is also important to state that the only way to realise the gain and profit from an asset like the White Sox is to sell the team or at least one owners stake. From a purely economic point of view the owner's profits are coming in non-financial forms, i.e. the right to good seats at all games including playoffs and World Series, inside information, a chance to influence business strategy, social status, and the like. For many people with money these things can be very important.

There have been many complaints that we could have won five or ten years ago. Maybe true, but so what. George Steinbrenner has wasted talent and oppurtunities. He has created dynasties with lots of money. The latest string of victories is due to the time that he was once again censured and not allowed to run his own team. Jeter, Petite, etc. came up during this time. Since he's been back he's ruined the Pitching staff, wasted Money on Randy Johnson, and basically gutted a storied franchise which could have won ten World Series in a row. My point in all of this is that this is hard work. You cannot just go out and buy championships and you can't just run off a string of them. With far less resources, but more wisdom, Jerry's guys, Ozzie and Kenny, have pulled off what may be the first of a couple. Give 'em a chance. It took him a few years to learn whom to pick and assemble the right personnel. It certainly is the wrong time to criticise him. I think that 34 inch stick has some "issues" which are not just baseball oriented in origin.

soxfanreggie
11-02-2005, 12:00 AM
Well, one thing the owners do get...a very nice box for the games, great food, nice trips, free gear. Plus, I'm sure Major League teams have a nice way of hiding money they make. Jerry didn't buy into the team for a money maker, and if I was a pro sports owner, neither would I...you are usually a better owner if you have a passion for baseball. As for George in NY...he made a lot of money forcing cable providers to buy YES and pay him $4 per subscriber I believe...or something like that. He made a killing off of that lawsuit.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 12:00 AM
One tiny cavil from your post which I've quoted not only because I agree but because I think it's important; and that is that it's a lesson in
finance not economics. What is also important to state that the only way to realise the gain and profit from an asset like the White Sox is to sell the team or at least one owners stake. From a purely economic point of view the owner's profits are coming in non-financial forms, i.e. the right to good seats at all games including playoffs and World Series, inside information, a chance to influence business strategy, social status, and the like. For many people with money these things can be very important.

There have been many complaints that we could have won five or ten years ago. Maybe true, but so what. George Steinbrenner has wasted talent and oppurtunities. He has created dynasties with lots of money. The latest string of victories is due to the time that he was once again censured and not allowed to run his own team. Jeter, Petite, etc. came up during this time. Since he's been back he's ruined the Pitching staff, wasted Money on Randy Johnson, and basically gutted a storied franchise which could have won ten World Series in a row. My point in all of this is that this is hard work. You cannot just go out and buy championships and you can't just run off a string of them. With far less resources, but more wisdom, Jerry's guys, Ozzie and Kenny, have pulled off what may be the first of a couple. Give 'em a chance. It took him a few years to learn whom to pick and assemble the right personnel. It certainly is the wrong time to criticise him. I think that 34 inch stick has some "issues" which are not just baseball oriented in origin.Good point. These guys all made their fortunes already and are pretty wealthy. They're hardly going to get excited about the meager profits the Sox make. They don't own a sports team for the profits. Every one of them could make a better return on their money elsewhere. They own sports teams for personal reasons, i.e. status, prestige, the chance to be a part of a winning team.

The best owners are the ones who hire good people to run the team and then stay the hell out of it. Steinbrenner is a textbook example of how NOT to do it. Reinsdorf, for all the criticism he's taken, has done a good job with what he's had to work with. They've made mistakes to be sure, but the only way to not make mistakes is to do nothing.

34 Inch Stick
11-02-2005, 09:40 AM
I completely disagree.

In five years, he turned the mess he was left by Ron Schueler into a World Championship team, he was exactly the right choice for the job.

He really only turned it around in the last 1.5-2 years. Prior to that the Sox were acting as the training ground for an inexperienced and underqualified GM. The lack of experience in critical areas of a GM's job was acknowledged by the team from the very beginning by bringing back Hemond to teach him in the areas of contract negotiation and business management. I don't think anyone can deny that KW was bad GM when he started here and Chicago should never be used as a training ground at its top positions.

As I said at the beginning of the season and have reiterated since, I give KW supreme credit for this championship. In my opinion this team was forged by the vision of KW. However, before he was hired he could have used more years of apprenticeship (with an understanding that he was the heir) and that is why it was not the correct choice.

34 Inch Stick
11-02-2005, 09:43 AM
I think that 34 inch stick has some "issues" which are not just baseball oriented in origin.

Please explain. I can take a critique of an opinion from people whose baseball knowledge I respect. You may fit that description. However this sentence leads me to believe you would like to go in a different direction.

34 Inch Stick
11-02-2005, 10:06 AM
Losses cannot be turned into gains by tax write-offs. They only reduce the loss, but it's still a loss.

The appreciation on the value is not "money in the bank". It's not money anywhere. It's an asset. They bought the team for $20M back in 1981. Given a value of $300M today, that's a 10%/year increase in value. It's exactly the same as the increase in the S&P500 over the same period. Hardly a whiz-bang investment.

.

I'm not in the field of financial analysis, tax code analysis or bookeeping so help me out if I am wrong.

A loss, if any, that they would receive would be used to offset income produced from other unrelated ventures. Since they know they are getting a nice low risk increase in the value of the team each year that will be realized at the time of sale, the loss is accepted for its value in decreasing each partners overall taxable income for the year without decreasing the actual income.

I do not know the equation for determining the future value of a current investment but is 300 million over 25 years on a 20 million investment really only a 10% return?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

However, I still stand by original post. I am grateful for this championship. However, after 25 years JR was a played a big role in the 88 years of futility that he is accountable for. There was not an identifiable change in his ownership style in this year from year's past, so I do not place a give a large amount of credit for the championship to JR (although I do give some).

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 10:22 AM
I'm not in the field of financial analysis, tax code analysis or bookeeping so help me out if I am wrong.

A loss, if any, that they would receive would be used to offset income produced from other unrelated ventures. Since they know they are getting a nice low risk increase in the value of the team each year that will be realized at the time of sale, the loss is accepted for its value in decreasing each partners overall taxable income for the year without decreasing the actual income.

I do not know the equation for determining the future value of a current investment but is 300 million over 25 years on a 20 million investment really only a 10% return?

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

However, I still stand by original post. I am grateful for this championship. However, after 25 years JR was a played a big role in the 88 years of futility that he is accountable for. There was not an identifiable change in his ownership style in this year from year's past, so I do not place a give a large amount of credit for the championship to JR (although I do give some).The White Sox are a corporation. Owners cannot take losses from the White Sox and apply them to offset profits from other businesses.

The 10% figure is correct. Compound interest is a wonderful thing. For comparison, the S&P500 index closed a little over 100 in early 1980. It stands at 1200 today. That appreciation is pretty close to the increase in value of the White Sox over the same period.

34 Inch Stick
11-02-2005, 10:37 AM
I'll stand corrected on this point although I do not believe for a second that the ownership group came together as an altruistic partnership.

hawkjt
11-02-2005, 04:42 PM
I disagree that KW was a bad GM his first few years. He inherited a 2000 team that had lost virtually every starter to injury late in 2000 and turned a damaged Mike Sirotka into David Wells who has really only had one horrible year in the last 7-8. It happened to be the year the sox got him and was cuz of a back injury.

Wells went down and then Frank also and that promising year was shot with no pitching left.

Frank has only been healthy for a cumaltive total of about 1.5 season since kenny took over and it has really hurt him in every season. KW has been agressive and has had the team in contention every year. He has been fine.

34 Inch Stick
11-02-2005, 05:35 PM
I could give you a list the opposite way combining several facets of a GM job description including but not limited to such things as the Kip Wells trade and the tipping of the table. This is not really about KW though because, as I have said, he has matured nicely and is a top man at his position NOW.

DenverSock
11-03-2005, 12:26 AM
Please explain. I can take a critique of an opinion from people whose baseball knowledge I respect. You may fit that description. However this sentence leads me to believe you would like to go in a different direction.

I'll be blunt. You react in manner way over the top in regards to Jerry Reinsdorf. I don't believe his management or mis-management of the team is the issue with you. Without getting too specific, because most of all I'm not a psychologist and I haven't interviewed you, you do seem to be angry in an unreasonable fashion and you express it inappropriately. In short I think you have a lot of anger for which you use your love of the Sox as an outlet and you fixate on JR. This is actually a healthy outlet ( it's one of the reasons people like sports, or Opera, or anything in the first place) but you let it cloud your judgment. Your judgements about baseball are not really germane here.

34 Inch Stick
11-03-2005, 08:46 AM
Go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here.

If you were going to be blunt, you would get into specifics. I would bet out of my thousands of posts you would probably find only a handfull directly addressing JR. I don't think any of those would fall into the definition of "inappropriate" or overly angry for that matter.

I would tell you to take your dime store psychology elsewhere but I have a feeling you were trying to get at something else with your post and are using this psychobable as a pretext.

34 Inch Stick
11-03-2005, 09:02 AM
I am very gratefull to the entire organization for the victory.

That being said, after 25 years it was getting to the point of statistical probability that JR would eventually win one. Let's not forget that close to a third of those 88 years of futility were spent under JR's watch.
I do believe he is a great businessman. He is fiscally conservative with the team and always seems to turn a profit for his coinvestors (and has on all of his ventures in and out of the sports world). He is looked to as a leader among millionaires. I don't know if that makes him a great owner from the fans perspective. Also, I don't think there is anything that I can point to in his ownership style that changed so as to set it apart from the other 24 years. That leads me to say he was along for the ride on this one.

I'm looking for the "unreasonable" and "inappropriate" anger towards JR here.

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 10:25 AM
I'll stand corrected on this point although I do not believe for a second that the ownership group came together as an altruistic partnership.Who said anything about altruistic? They have plenty of motivations, probably different for each one. Maybe being a part owner of a baseball team makes them feel important. Maybe they like guaranteed good seats for the game. Who knows? I just don't see making money as one of them. Every one of these guys were successful businessmen before they bought the team. They all could certainly be getting a better return on their investment elsewhere.