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kykygruber
10-30-2005, 08:30 PM
I just have a feeling that they might trade Garland. Who do u think they will re sign or get rid off?


KyKyGruber

MRKARNO
10-30-2005, 08:31 PM
I think Kenny Williams and Ozzie are both going to resign.

FedEx227
10-30-2005, 08:49 PM
OMG WHEN I WUZ AT DA PARADE KANERKO SAID LETZ DU IT AGAIN NEX YER SO HE HAZ TO BE RESIGNING

Who cares? Honestly right now, the number one priority is get Konerko back on board, after that its really just little things. I don't believe Garland will be traded theres no reason to do that at this point, if the Sox are really smart they'd locked him up now because he goes into free-agency next season.

Daver
10-30-2005, 09:09 PM
I heard Brian Cashman is willing to give up quite a bit for the Sox batboy.

































:)

chisox2005
10-30-2005, 09:55 PM
If something becomes available I wouldn't be surprised to see Contreras be traded. The guy definitely shot up his value over the second half of the year. Now would the White Sox be willing to move him? I think they would if they could clear his 8 million or around there to help re-sign Paul Konerko and bring something back. No one knows the age of Contreras either, its hard for me to think of us trading him with the performances he finished with but you never know.

Chips
10-30-2005, 09:59 PM
Lets resign Paulie and then make decisions. If Konerko signs with us, I don't see a lot of moves being made. If he signs elsewhere, then KW might make a trade to bring in a power hitter. But I think PK signs here and this team basically stays intact next season.

Fuller_Schettman
10-30-2005, 10:09 PM
Garland has the potential to be the greatest starting pitcher in the history of the franchise. I could see him getting 15-20 wins per season for the next 15 years. Lock him in!!

Crede_Fan
10-30-2005, 10:10 PM
Since they did it with pitching and defense, I don't see them doing any moving of the Four Horsemen!

I think PK resigns, as does Hurt. Not sure on Carl. Only changes I see being made are maybe a little tweeking of the bullpen. (I also think El Duque stays in the pen)

Chips
10-30-2005, 10:11 PM
Garland has the potential to be the greatest starting pitcher in the history of the franchise. I could see him getting 15-20 wins per season for the next 15 years. Lock him in!!

The next 300 game winner, that would kick ass. Yes lock him in, he has much more confidence with Ozzie managing than Manual, lock Garland up.

DVsoxfan
10-30-2005, 10:12 PM
If something becomes available I wouldn't be surprised to see Contreras be traded. The guy definitely shot up his value over the second half of the year. Now would the White Sox be willing to move him? I think they would if they could clear his 8 million or around there to help re-sign Paul Konerko and bring something back. No one knows the age of Contreras either, its hard for me to think of us trading him with the performances he finished with but you never know.

Contreras turned the corner this year. He's finally pitching as we all heard he could from day 1. A full season of Contreras pitching in such a fashion could make for another great season. Not to mention the fact that hes not making too much money considering the production, and the fact that we got him for basically nothing. I would say Contreras is about as untouchable as they come.

CWsox45
10-30-2005, 10:12 PM
I think the only guy that will be gone this year will be Damaso Marte. I think we might see Scott Eyre back with the Sox this year considering he is a free agent.

MadetoOrta
10-30-2005, 11:32 PM
I think the only guy that will be gone this year will be Damaso Marte. I think we might see Scott Eyre back with the Sox this year considering he is a free agent.

I agree with you that Marte will be gone. And if you're only as good as your last appearance, Marte actually has some value. He was terrific in Game 3 with his heater clocked at 95 mph. There's value.

Canadian_SoxFan
10-30-2005, 11:52 PM
I think the only guy that will be gone this year will be Damaso Marte. I think we might see Scott Eyre back with the Sox this year considering he is a free agent. why would they get rid of Marte and sign Eyre? IMO Marte is far better than Eyre, and with his new found confidence he should return to his old form next year. Why would the Sox trade a guy away and sign someone who is basically the same pitcher.

rjdmichjr
10-31-2005, 12:07 AM
Hope Kenny does some tinkering, which is OK....

MUsoxfan
10-31-2005, 12:33 AM
I hope Wayne Huizenga has called KW to promote his post-World Series business model that was so successful for the '98 Marlins.

HotelWhiteSox
10-31-2005, 12:41 AM
At the All Star Break this year, I would've said that Contreras would've been gone (I liked him when he was inconsistent, but that contract that the stupid Yanks signed him too...), but now he's basically the ace. I'd say the rotation is set at (not in order) Contreras, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, McCarthy, leaving El Duque as odd man out, though I don't know if anyone would trade for him.

I have this feeling that Aaron might be gone, there's a nice replacement in Anderson. I hope both PK and Frank could stay, but I'd guess it's one or the other, if one at all? Other than that, I think the rest of the OF and infield will stay the same. No clue on Everett.

No comment on the bullpen since I don't know contract situations, but I'm not sure if they want to give Damaso another chance, and other teams love lefties. His numbers aren't as bad to the point where he's revealed as a headcase. No clue on Dustin. I'm guessing Cotts, Politte, Vizcaino, and Jenks are all in again.

Even if the guys suggested leave, there's the assumption of a capable replacement, and this team will be damn good again. The pitching will be there, good pen, you still have a leadoff man, you still have a closer, you have good defense. It might not be as easy, but it should be a fun battle with Cleveland

My first thought when reading the title was 'just wait and see', since there's no control over it anyhow. Plus, we just won it all, we're supposed to savor this time. These type of discussions are the only thing to talk about for teams who fell short

Note: The whole post is pure speculation :D:

Banix12
10-31-2005, 12:48 AM
I think the team largely remains in tact. I expect them to resign Konerko.

Thomas is on the bubble, it can go either way but I expect him to come back at a very reduced rate with incentives. I'm sure Frank doesn't see it this way but after years of cashing a paycheck and sitting on the DL, the Sox should probably get a year on the cheap.

I think they'll give Marte another shot, even though I wouldn't. One of the extra right handers will probably be gone. Viz or El Duque. I don't expect any pitchers to be traded until late in spring training.

Carl is probably gone as is Blum and Timo. I don't know about the contract status of Willie and Gload but I think they want to go someplace where they can earn more regular playing time.

I have no idea who Kenny is targeting but I would like to see if he could convince Brian Giles to come to the southside if only to DH but I don't see it as likely.

Nyls Nyman
10-31-2005, 08:16 AM
I think that:

- They will resign Konerko;
- They will resign Frank to a one-year deal based on playing time, using that $3.5M from the buyout plus maybe another $2M. The understanding will be that if they sign Frank, he'll announce simultaneoulsy that he's retiring at the end of the season;
- Therefore, Everett is gone;
- Anderson takes Timo's spot on the roster and gets groomed to replace either Podsednik or Rowand depending on who has the lesser 2006;
- They shop Rowand around in case somebody will overpay, but they don't find a sucker and therefore don't trade him;
- Harris and one of the relievers (probably Vizcaino) will be traded, and Blum will not be resigned.

WestSox
10-31-2005, 08:29 AM
I just have a feeling that they might trade Garland.

You can't be serious. Why would they want to get rid of a (relatively) young pitcher who won 18 games this year and was money in the playoffs?

El Duque would be the first person I'd shop (not worth $4.5 mil), but I'm not sure if anyone's going to be buying. Contreras would be next in line, but mostly because of his age and price tag. He may revert back to '04 form this year, but I think he's worth keeping around for at least one more season after what he did in the second half of this year.

CWsox45
10-31-2005, 08:39 AM
why would they get rid of Marte and sign Eyre? IMO Marte is far better than Eyre, and with his new found confidence he should return to his old form next year. Why would the Sox trade a guy away and sign someone who is basically the same pitcher.

Marte has been in Guillen's doghouse a couple times this season, when this happens we all know the result. *see Carlos Lee

CWSOX45

WestSox
10-31-2005, 08:40 AM
Isn't Crede represented by Boras? If so, that might be problematic down the road. I'd hate to lose his glove.

veeter
10-31-2005, 08:46 AM
I will never understand the 'trade Garland ' stuff as long as I live. Two or three years ago, maybe. But now?!!! What is the thinking behind this?!

munchman33
10-31-2005, 08:49 AM
My predictions:

Gone via free agency: Konerko, Everett

Trades: Rowand to Milwaukee for Lyle Overbay

Anderson gets CF nod

Resign Frank to split DH time with Joe Borchard

El Duque pitches out of the pen

munchman33
10-31-2005, 08:49 AM
I will never understand the 'trade Garland ' stuff as long as I live. Two or three years ago, maybe. But now?!!! What is the thinking behind this?!

I heard the Angels might be willing to part with Darrin Erstad....

Kittle'sNeighbor
10-31-2005, 08:52 AM
Word is here in Scottsdale that Paulie won't be back.

Flight #24
10-31-2005, 09:01 AM
Word is here in Scottsdale that Paulie won't be back.

Source?

Jenks4Pres
10-31-2005, 09:08 AM
Paulie for Manny??

MadetoOrta
10-31-2005, 09:22 AM
When Garland arrived on the south side, the comparison was Kevin Brown. [tall, 90+ mph, hard sinker]. He's developed into a young Kevin Brown. I can't think of a dumber thing to do than to trade him. He's 26/27, prime of his career and if we learned anything this past post-season, pitching and defense always beats good hitting. If Paulie's money goes to locking up Garland and Burls for many years, great.

WestSox
10-31-2005, 09:27 AM
Paulie for Manny??

We don't need a 33-year-old whiny, selfish, defensively-challenged, financial albatross whose best days are likely behind him.

Tragg
10-31-2005, 09:35 AM
My predictions:

Gone via free agency: Konerko, Everett

Trades: Rowand to Milwaukee for Lyle Overbay

Anderson gets CF nod

Resign Frank to split DH time with Joe Borchard

El Duque pitches out of the pen

That's about how I see it, but somehow we need to find a clean-up hitter. A 1B without power is a luxury, one I'm not sure we can afford.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 09:52 AM
Garland has the potential to be the greatest starting pitcher in the history of the franchise. I could see him getting 15-20 wins per season for the next 15 years. Lock him in!!

You mean you could see him approaching the consistency and success that Mark Buehrle has already shown for several years?

Buehrle is the kind of pitcher that could actually approach 300 wins. Very few out there right now who could have the longevity to do so.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 09:57 AM
I just have a feeling that they might trade Garland. Who do u think they will re sign or get rid off?

Who will they sign/trade or "should"???

It will really depend on where they see the payroll being set. I can see an easy 10 million dollar increase in payroll that would allow them to resign Pauly and still have money to chase after another TOP bat, which they know they need. Dye is not a #3 hitter.

1) Resign Pauly
2) Trade Rowand and Marte.
3) Let Carl walk.

Anderson starts in CF. Pauly at 1st base.

They need a legit #3 hitter, and there are a few who are/might be available.

They are: Helton, Thome, Delgado. Nobody is available on the FA market that could be a #3 hitter. Furcal could be a GREAT #2 hitter behind Pods. Would make for a freightening 2-some at the top of the order.

Frater Perdurabo
10-31-2005, 09:57 AM
Source?

ChiSoxTony.....

:)

Randar68
10-31-2005, 10:08 AM
My predictions:

Gone via free agency: Konerko, Everett

Trades: Rowand to Milwaukee for Lyle Overbay

Anderson gets CF nod

Resign Frank to split DH time with Joe Borchard

El Duque pitches out of the pen

Couple points:

If they don't sign Pauly, they'll be looking to add BOTH a #3 and a #4 hitter. Overbay is NEITHER of those things.

We know KW loves to trade, wooing free agents may not be his strongest suit, but let's consider several options out there.

I would not be surprised to see them make a serious run at Matsui if he hits the market and George does not lock him up. You'd be able to DH Matsui and Dye and play them in RF alternatingly.

Other options for #3/#4 hitter out there would be Helton, Delgado, Thome, perhaps Dunn or Griffey if they come on the market, who else? I just don't see many options.

The problem with resigning Frank is that you know you can't depend on him to stay healthy. It hamstings you because you need to have a viable alternative ready to go or splitting time with him.



I am sticking to my guns on what I would do:

I would make a run at Furcal and resign Pauly. Signing Furcal would allow you to have a top-4 in the order of Pods-Furcal-Iguchi-Konerko. Now we can still attempt to address DH in the market via Carl/Frank, other options (depending on Payroll), etc.

Uribe has considerable value, IMO. He becomes a powerful trading chip along with Rowand and you'd have a lineup along the lines of:

Pods-Furcal-Iguchi-Konerko-DH-Dye-AJ-Anderson-Crede.

If Furcal fall through, I focus on Matsui, then onto trades for the likes of Helton/Delgado(not a fan of his attitude)/Thome.

Some new names always pop up at the winter meetings, and KW really needs to look at getting a run-producer with a good OBP to hit in-front or behind Konerko.

Mickster
10-31-2005, 10:12 AM
1) Resign Pauly
2) Trade Rowand and Marte.
3) Let Carl walk.

Anderson starts in CF. Pauly at 1st base.


These are exactly what I feel should be done unless PK wants huge-insane cash. If he does, then work out a trade for Helton, Overbay etc....

soxfanatlanta
10-31-2005, 10:15 AM
When Garland arrived on the south side, the comparison was Kevin Brown. [tall, 90+ mph, hard sinker]. He's developed into a young Kevin Brown.

No doubt about it, JG had one very good year, he finally put it all together to give the Sox some great quality starts, and he was money throughout the playoffs. But let's not put him in the hall just yet :-) His strikeouts were less than stellar, and he did tail off a bit towards the end of the season.

Don't get me wrong: signing him would be a good thing, and I'm sure KW would like to keep the same formula of good pitching + defense = winning baseball. However, one season does not a pitcher make. My guess, and I mean guess, is that KW will not decide on him until sometime before the all star break next year. That will pretty much give him some leverage in one of two ways:

1. He can trade him for whatever is ailing the Sox at the time (bats, bullpen, whatever) if his price is too much

2. If he does come back to earth, then KW can still exdend him for 3 years, and you still have a solid #3,4,or 5 starter who will munch on innings.

Just a thought, I could be full of basura.

(My guess is that I am)

munchman33
10-31-2005, 10:15 AM
That's about how I see it, but somehow we need to find a clean-up hitter. A 1B without power is a luxury, one I'm not sure we can afford.

A healthy Frank is our cleanup hitter. Its a big question mark, but its probably how things will play out. If they don't work out, there's always midseason aquisitions.

Frater Perdurabo
10-31-2005, 10:19 AM
Who will they sign/trade or "should"???

It will really depend on where they see the payroll being set. I can see an easy 10 million dollar increase in payroll that would allow them to resign Pauly and still have money to chase after another TOP bat, which they know they need. Dye is not a #3 hitter.

1) Resign Pauly
2) Trade Rowand and Marte.
3) Let Carl walk.

Anderson starts in CF. Pauly at 1st base.

They need a legit #3 hitter, and there are a few who are/might be available.

They are: Helton, Thome, Delgado. Nobody is available on the FA market that could be a #3 hitter. Furcal could be a GREAT #2 hitter behind Pods. Would make for a freightening 2-some at the top of the order.

Randar, do you think Giles could do well batting third behind Pods and Furcal? (Might Giles re-think his opposition to coming to the Sox now that we are the World Champions?)

I respect your analysis, insights and opinions, Randar, but with all due respect the Sox won the World Series with Dye batting third and earning the Series MVP. I agree he's not the prototypical #3 hitter, but it seems to me he's plenty capable considering they went 11-1 in the playoffs and won 16 of their last 17 against quality opponents with Dye getting most of those ABs as the #3 hitter. His 2005 .512 SLG was good, and in the postseason he showed an ability to be very patient at the plate, working the pitcher, fouling off marginal pitches with two strikes and coaxing lots of walks. Seems to me that he'd do exceptionally well hitting third behind a hypothetical 1-2 dynamo of Pods and Furcal, with Giles, Thomas, Thome, Delgado or Konerko protecting him.

Hangar18
10-31-2005, 10:22 AM
Im not even worried about this, at this point. All we have to do is look at how the SOX have done business in the past. If we go strictly with that, you can rest assured that the players who are Sought after Free Agents will be GONE.

You can also safely assume that anyone due a Big Raise in their contracts, or anyone coming off a Great Year and Arbitration Eligible will also be GONE.

That said, say goodbye to Paul Konerko, John Garland for sure. Joe Crede whom I also believe to be arbitration eligible, will end up signing a short term deal because we simply do not have anyone to play 3rd right now. And then we start all over, needing a proven RBI/BAT, another RBI/Bat to bat in the 3rd spot, and hope that BMcCarthy can fill the role of Jon Garland

soxfanatlanta
10-31-2005, 10:27 AM
A healthy Frank is our cleanup hitter. Its a big question mark, but its probably how things will play out. If they don't work out, there's always midseason aquisitions.

I hope Frank can come back and play 100+ games, because free agent clean up hitters are slim pickings right now. If Paulie is not resigned, and Thomas gets hurt, then Williams will probably be forced to trade some of his bullpen to get a decent bat. A sin by most standards, but you still have to score some runs, especially at US Cellular Field where the ball loves to fly.

gf2020
10-31-2005, 10:29 AM
We know KW loves to trade, wooing free agents may not be his strongest suit

:dye: (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)

I am sticking to my guns on what I would do:

I would make a run at Furcal and resign Pauly. Signing Furcal would allow you to have a top-4 in the order of Pods-Furcal-Iguchi-Konerko. Now we can still attempt to address DH in the market via Carl/Frank, other options (depending on Payroll), etc.

[snipped]

If Furcal fall through, I focus on Matsui, then onto trades for the likes of Helton/Delgado(not a fan of his attitude)/Thome.

Oh really, you are sticking to your guns on a plan that pushes our payroll to nearly a 100 million? We barely have enough money to resign Paulie. Where would we get the funds to pursue Furcal who fills a position that we already have well covered or Matsui who we could not possibly outbid the Yankees for? The hotstove is fun, but let's not set our sights way too high when we already have many of our own like AJ and Garland to take care of.

voodoochile
10-31-2005, 10:44 AM
Marte has been in Guillen's doghouse a couple times this season, when this happens we all know the result. *see Carlos Lee

CWSOX45

Yeah... that's why they traded Lee...:rolleyes:

Randar68
10-31-2005, 10:46 AM
:dye: (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=5#)



Oh really, you are sticking to your guns on a plan that pushes our payroll to nearly a 100 million? We barely have enough money to resign Paulie. Where would we get the funds to pursue Furcal who fills a position that we already have well covered or Matsui who we could not possibly outbid the Yankees for? The hotstove is fun, but let's not set our sights way too high when we already have many of our own like AJ and Garland to take care of.


Hey Jr, I've doen the math and shown how this could be done for around 85 million dollars several times on this board. If you want to throw out hypothetical "how much it costs" numbers without doing any real math, then don't bother.

The Sox could resign Pauly, sign Furcal, AND sign Giles or trade for one of Helton/Thome/Delgado and still be around 85 million dollars by trading Uribe, Rowand, El Duque and Marte and letting Carl and Frank walk.

I've done the math several times and would be happy to do it again if it would shut you up on feasibility issues you clearly have no freaking clue about.

WestSox
10-31-2005, 10:50 AM
All we have to do is look at how the SOX have done business in the past. If we go strictly with that, you can rest assured that the players who are Sought after Free Agents will be GONE.

You can also safely assume that anyone due a Big Raise in their contracts, or anyone coming off a Great Year and Arbitration Eligible will also be GONE.

Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but weren't Frank and Robin sought-after free agents at some point back in the early/mid-'90s? That didn't stop the Sox from re-signing them. But your logic certainly does apply to the way that the Sox have dealt with players who were near the end of their primes (mostly pitchers... Blackjack, Fernandez, Alvarez, Hernandez). Unfortunately, Paulie falls into that category. But I don't think that Garland does. And isn't he arbitration-eligible now? I think he's around for at least one more season before KW/JR decide that he's going to be too expensive to sign to a long-term deal. If they don't sign Garland to a long-term deal before the end of next season, he's definintely gone. Now's the time to do it, as his value will most likely continue to increase.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 10:52 AM
Randar, do you think Giles could do well batting third behind Pods and Furcal? (Might Giles re-think his opposition to coming to the Sox now that we are the World Champions?)

Now, here is someone I forgot to mention. I love Giles. He could play any OF spot at US Cellular and DH as well, while he would also benefit greatly from the dimensions. He would be an ideal #3 hitter for us if we also made a run at Furcal. It would also allow you to move Iguchi into a run-producing role in the #5 or #6 spot in the order. WOuld he re-think coming to Chicago? That is the primary question on the board, IMO. He'd like to win a championship, we know that, but he's also got ties to the west coast and would be hard to get away from LA, Arizona, San Diego or Anaheim if any of those teams are interested, IMO.

I respect your analysis, insights and opinions, Randar, but with all due respect the Sox won the World Series with Dye batting third and earning the Series MVP. I agree he's not the prototypical #3 hitter, but it seems to me he's plenty capable considering they went 11-1 in the playoffs and won 16 of their last 17 against quality opponents with Dye getting most of those ABs as the #3 hitter. His 2005 .512 SLG was good, and in the postseason he showed an ability to be very patient at the plate, working the pitcher, fouling off marginal pitches with two strikes and coaxing lots of walks. Seems to me that he'd do exceptionally well hitting third behind a hypothetical 1-2 dynamo of Pods and Furcal, with Giles, Thomas, Thome, Delgado or Konerko protecting him.

Dye is a pretty good hitter, but I just don't like him in the #3 role. #5 or #6 is about right for him at this point in his career. He's a streaky hitter and I like his experience...

Giles+Furcal+Pauly would be an ideal offseason IMO. Again, you'd have to trade Rowand, Uribe, El Duque and Marte, but it would be well worth it, IMO.

Pods-Furcal-Giles-Pauly-Dye-Iguchi-AJ-Crede-Anderson. Pretty damn good lineup, IMO. Also allows you to DH or rest any of Dye/Pods/Giles on a regular basis and still leaves you with a great rotation of:

Contreras/Buehrle/Garcia/Garland/McCarthy that is a better rotation than we had this year. It also develops the need for an additional lefty specialist, but everyone else in the bullpen would be back.

voodoochile
10-31-2005, 10:54 AM
Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but weren't Frank and Robin sought-after free agents at some point back in the early/mid-'90s? That didn't stop the Sox from re-signing them. But your logic certainly does apply to the way that the Sox have dealt with players who were near the end of their primes (mostly pitchers... Blackjack, Fernandez, Alvarez, Hernandez). Unfortunately, Paulie falls into that category. But I don't think that Garland does. And isn't he arbitration-eligible now? I think he's around for at least one more season before KW/JR decide that he's going to be too expensive to sign to a long-term deal. If they don't sign Garland to a long-term deal before the end of next season, he's definintely gone. Now's the time to do it, as his value will most likely continue to increase.

Actually, Frank never finished his arbitration years before signing the long term deal that led to the Diminished Skills Clause that was invoked after the 2003 season.

Robin was allowed to walk the very first time he was an unrestricted FA. Of course that was after coming back from the horrific ankle injury which greatly reduced his mobility and led to the final years of his career being played at DH/1B though he did play 3B for a few more years after coming back.

I agree about Garland, I don't see them trading him until at least mid-season if they are out of the pennant race. They will get more for him then anyway. I doubt that happens because the Sox should be pennant contenders again next year if they merely resign PK and get Frank to sign an incentive laden contract - which I think Frank will if there is a decent buyout involved in the end of it.

Frater Perdurabo
10-31-2005, 10:56 AM
Im not even worried about this, at this point. All we have to do is look at how the SOX have done business in the past. If we go strictly with that, you can rest assured that the players who are Sought after Free Agents will be GONE.

You can also safely assume that anyone due a Big Raise in their contracts, or anyone coming off a Great Year and Arbitration Eligible will also be GONE.

That said, say goodbye to Paul Konerko, John Garland for sure. Joe Crede whom I also believe to be arbitration eligible, will end up signing a short term deal because we simply do not have anyone to play 3rd right now. And then we start all over, needing a proven RBI/BAT, another RBI/Bat to bat in the 3rd spot, and hope that BMcCarthy can fill the role of Jon Garland

Come on, Hangar. They just won the World Series for crying out loud!

Even if they did make those moves to drive away all those key players (and I'll bey my left nut they don't drive them all away), doesn't KW at least deserves the benefit of the doubt on how best to spend his payroll; that he would be able to upgrade other positions?
:?:

Your personal "cheap, timid and stupid" (teal because we ought to relegate that phrase to the trash heap of history) whipping boy, Jermaine Dye, just won the World Series MVP.

You may hate Jerry Reinsdorf with all your heart, but for goodness sake, he presided over your favorite team achieving World Series glory. It may have taken 25 years to do so, but he delivered on his promise to make the White Sox a truly first class organization.

They are the World Champs and no one can take that away from you, (except your own illogical and pathological hatred).

Come on, Henry, smile! :D:

WestSox
10-31-2005, 11:14 AM
Actually, Frank never finished his arbitration years before signing the long term deal that led to the Diminished Skills Clause that was invoked after the 2003 season.

Robin was allowed to walk the very first time he was an unrestricted FA. Of course that was after coming back from the horrific ankle injury which greatly reduced his mobility and led to the final years of his career being played at DH/1B though he did play 3B for a few more years after coming back.

...get Frank to sign an incentive laden contract - which I think Frank will if there is a decent buyout involved in the end of it.


I didn't realize that neither Frank nor Robin were UFAs before the end of the '97 season.

I hope you're right about Frank. As he showed briefly this summer, he's still a dominant hitter when healthy. I think he was sincere about wanting to come back for significantly less money. The $3.5 mil buyout plus another million or two of base salary with incentives up to $8 million would be fair, IMO.

Paulwny
10-31-2005, 11:14 AM
I look for Rowand to be traded. Everyone including the sox expected 20+ hr's from him. They won't go with 2 of's under 20 hr's.

nodiggity59
10-31-2005, 11:18 AM
Pods-Furcal-Giles-Pauly-Dye-Iguchi-AJ-Crede-Anderson. Pretty damn good lineup, IMO. Also allows you to DH or rest any of Dye/Pods/Giles on a regular basis and still leaves you with a great rotation of:


A lot has to go right in FA for this to work out. Unlike last year, the guys you mentioned are desired by other teams and there will be stiff competition to acquire these types. Simply put, even if we match everybody's offer I don't see us ever signing 3 impact free agents in the same offseason. Only the Yankees do that and there's a reason why.

Matsui, Furcal, Giles, Paulie, Delgado, Thome are some of the best names out there. They're not AJ, Dye, Iguchi, etc. I can't believe KW could bag 3 of those even if he wanted to. Even though the idea makes sense financially, IMO this lineup is a little Playstation - ish.

soxfanatlanta
10-31-2005, 11:24 AM
Giles+Furcal+Pauly would be an ideal offseason IMO. Again, you'd have to trade Rowand, Uribe, El Duque and Marte, but it would be well worth it, IMO.

Pods-Furcal-Giles-Pauly-Dye-Iguchi-AJ-Crede-Anderson. Pretty damn good lineup, IMO. Also allows you to DH or rest any of Dye/Pods/Giles on a regular basis and still leaves you with a great rotation of...

Help me understand why you like Furcal so much? Compared to Uribe, he is an upgrade, I must admit that. But I have seen him play here for years, and I have to say that I am underwhelmed at best. I cannot see him as a valuable #2 hitter; this guy has leadoff written all over him. How would you fit him in with Pods?

Just wondering

Hagan
10-31-2005, 11:25 AM
I see the white sox if not this year then next year trading away aaron rowand. We have so much outfield talent coming up through our system and he is the weakest outfielder overall that we have. Yes his outfield work is amazing but having his ops slip by almost 200 has to be a concern to the white sox.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 11:44 AM
Help me understand why you like Furcal so much? Compared to Uribe, he is an upgrade, I must admit that. But I have seen him play here for years, and I have to say that I am underwhelmed at best. I cannot see him as a valuable #2 hitter; this guy has leadoff written all over him. How would you fit him in with Pods?

Just wondering

Furcal as the #2 hitter behind Pods. On a team that likes to run, Pods could steal 80 bags with Furcal stealing on the order of 60. That's 140 steals out of your top 2 hitters, not to mention both with OBP around .350 and Furcal providing some pop out of the 2-hole, similar to Iguchi.

Is Furcal as good a situational hitter as Iguchi? Probably not, but he is equal, defensively, IMO, to Uribe (Ozzie has stated previously that Furcal is a better defensive SS than Uribe, in his opinion) and provides you a second leadoff hitter, in essense, and he really fits in with the speed and defense that Ozzie likes. Allows you to better-utilize Iguchi as well, IMO.

I understand that acquiring 3 primo FA's is a bit over the top, but one would be resigned. I know several teams are after the good free agents, that is always the case.

However, could you see a team resigning a star, adding one primo FA and trading for another? That may be a bit more realistic.

itsnotrequired
10-31-2005, 11:48 AM
Furcal as the #2 hitter behind Pods. On a team that likes to run, Pods could steal 80 bags with Furcal stealing on the order of 60. That's 140 steals out of your top 2 hitters, not to mention both with OBP around .350 and Furcal providing some pop out of the 2-hole, similar to Iguchi.

Is Furcal as good a situational hitter as Iguchi? Probably not, but he is equal, defensively, IMO, to Uribe (Ozzie has stated previously that Furcal is a better defensive SS than Uribe, in his opinion) and provides you a second leadoff hitter, in essense, and he really fits in with the speed and defense that Ozzie likes. Allows you to better-utilize Iguchi as well, IMO.

I understand that acquiring 3 primo FA's is a bit over the top, but one would be resigned. I know several teams are after the good free agents, that is always the case.

However, could you see a team resigning a star, adding one primo FA and trading for another? That may be a bit more realistic.

Well put. Plus, the extra $3 million/yr the Sox would pay for "The Furcal Upgrade" is peanuts and seems well worth it.

SouthSoxFan
10-31-2005, 11:54 AM
Well put. Plus, the extra $3 million/yr the Sox would pay for "The Furcal Upgrade" is peanuts and seems well worth it.
How did you calculate that? Furcal is going to command a hefty salary. Uribe cost us $2.15mm this year, and is locked up at 3.15mm next year, 4.15mm in 2007, and a 5mm team option for 2008.

Uribe is 26 years old, so his peak is still ahead of him. I really don't see the Sox pursuing a new shortstop this off season.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 11:57 AM
How did you calculate that? Furcal is going to command a hefty salary. Uribe cost us $2.15mm this year, and is locked up at 3.15mm next year, and 4.15mm in 2007.

I really don't see the Sox pursuing a new shortstop this off season.

It'll likely be more like a 5-6 million dollar difference, but Uribe has a nice chunk of change coming to him over the next 3 years and has legit trade value.

You're trading a #9 hitter for a legit top of the order hitter with equivalent VERY good defense. That's a nice upgrade, IMO, at a reasonable cost.

gobears1987
10-31-2005, 12:00 PM
Who will they sign/trade or "should"???

It will really depend on where they see the payroll being set. I can see an easy 10 million dollar increase in payroll that would allow them to resign Pauly and still have money to chase after another TOP bat, which they know they need. Dye is not a #3 hitter.

1) Resign Pauly
2) Trade Rowand and Marte.
3) Let Carl walk.

Anderson starts in CF. Pauly at 1st base.

They need a legit #3 hitter, and there are a few who are/might be available.

They are: Helton, Thome, Delgado. Nobody is available on the FA market that could be a #3 hitter. Furcal could be a GREAT #2 hitter behind Pods. Would make for a freightening 2-some at the top of the order.We have the best #3 hitter in the game already. You know, the guy who has been here for 15 years, .307 lifetime AVE, about 450 HRs. You know, the Big Hurt.

gobears1987
10-31-2005, 12:01 PM
Help me understand why you like Furcal so much? Compared to Uribe, he is an upgrade, I must admit that. But I have seen him play here for years, and I have to say that I am underwhelmed at best. I cannot see him as a valuable #2 hitter; this guy has leadoff written all over him. How would you fit him in with Pods?

Just wonderingIguchi is a perfect #2 hitter, he is a contact guy who can sacrafice himself as Nellie used to do for Little Louie.

SouthSoxFan
10-31-2005, 12:08 PM
It'll likely be more like a 5-6 million dollar difference, but Uribe has a nice chunk of change coming to him over the next 3 years and has legit trade value.

You're trading a #9 hitter for a legit top of the order hitter with equivalent VERY good defense. That's a nice upgrade, IMO, at a reasonable cost.

You could upgrade just about any position for $5 to $6 million. Is shortstop really the right one? The first priority should be a left-handed #3-4-5 hitter.

gf2020
10-31-2005, 12:15 PM
Hey Jr, I've doen the math and shown how this could be done for around 85 million dollars several times on this board. If you want to throw out hypothetical "how much it costs" numbers without doing any real math, then don't bother.

The Sox could resign Pauly, sign Furcal, AND sign Giles or trade for one of Helton/Thome/Delgado and still be around 85 million dollars by trading Uribe, Rowand, El Duque and Marte and letting Carl and Frank walk.

I've done the math several times and would be happy to do it again if it would shut you up on feasibility issues you clearly have no freaking clue about.

I've searched your posts for the past month and haven't seen anything with the hard numbers. So yes, I would appreciate if you could indulge me or at least point me to a post with your math. Does your model include someone taking El Duque's entire $4.5 million salary? How plausible do you honestly believe that is? How much are you projecting Furcal to cost? $7 or 8 million? How much of the salary do you anticipate we would have to pick up on Helton/Thome/Delgado to make it worth the other team's while? How big of raises are you anticipating for Garland and AJ? Are you including the 4 million in buyouts in your figuring? Who takes Marte's spot in the pen and how much do you project them to cost? If Brian Anderson is your starting CF, are you keeping Timo as the fourth outfielder or don't you almost have to upgrade that role in case Anderson doesn't work out and how much does that person cost? . Thome? Are we really going to take that risk with his back history? Delgado? He already once used a no-trade clause to block a trade here. I just don't see a way for all your maneuvering to have the payroll be around the 85 million figure. Nor am I a fan of hampering our long term flexibility by giving someone like Furcal a contract that would be at least four years and probably five.

I like to think that I have a "freaking clue," but would welcome you proving me wrong.

santo=dorf
10-31-2005, 12:23 PM
Couple points:
I would not be surprised to see them make a serious run at Matsui if he hits the market and George does not lock him up. You'd be able to DH Matsui and Dye and play them in RF alternatingly.

That's not happening

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/mlb/players/5/7042.jpgHideki Matsui: 3-Year worth 21M- will make in 6M in 2003, 7M in 2004 and 8M in 2005- + he can earn 500K each year in bonuses- + has a complete NO-TRADE clause- + if he does not sign a contract extension or a new contract by Nov. 15, 2005, then the NYY must place him on waivers for the purpose of granting him his release- + if he were to clear waivers he would become a free agent Agent: Arn Tellem/John Kim Service Time: 2.000

JB98
10-31-2005, 12:27 PM
If anyone wants to join me, I'm starting an "Enemies of Lyle Overbay" club. You cannot replace a player like Paul Konerko with a mediocre dope like Overbay. If Paulie walks, we better swing a deal for Helton or Delgado.

Since I've been a member at WSI, I've seen posters lust after the likes of Frank Catalanotto, Jason Kendall and Rob Mackowiak. None of these players are difference-makers. Add Overbay to this group. Anyone who thinks he is an adequate replacement for Konerko is insane. Check the numbers if you don't believe me.

I don't think we need to go after Furcal. I'm satisfied with Uribe. Is Furcal the better player? Yes, but Uribe is more than serviceable. We don't need a shortstop, nor do we need a leadoff hitter. Furcal doesn't fill any of our holes.

I consider the middle of the lineup to be the one weakness of the 2005 Sox. Fortunately, we overcame that because, for one, we have great pitching, and two, PK and Dye were both swinging well at the right time. Personally, I think Jermaine Dye would look great batting sixth instead of third. I'd like to see us get another good RBI guy for 2006, even if we keep PK.

StockdaleForVeep
10-31-2005, 12:30 PM
I hope thomas would stay but only way he is i feel is if they make him take a major pay cut, which is a shame cuz he showed on 1 leg he still had it

AJ will be gone if he asks for a great deal more money and i think one of the minor bench guys like gload or ozuna\perez will be gone. Konerko i see will stay. Ozzie will force ownership to keep the latin pitchers in hernandez and contreras, if this is true, we could see a garland trade

This is all dependant on what happens with konerko, if he bolts, Its gonna force KW to fire a trade to replace that bat, meaning a garland or even garcia trade. I think this team wont make any major move till after PK's decision

daveeym
10-31-2005, 12:31 PM
My Crystal Ball says none of you are gonna be right. :cool:

seahawk037
10-31-2005, 12:44 PM
I was told by a friend that his Dad's mistress' uncle's brother's neighbor's Mom's grandmother's stepbrother's brother overheard Kenny on his cell phone at Midway last Thursday discussing a deal involving Jon Garland & Aaron Rowand for the almighty Sammy Sosa.

I like it!!! :D:

...sorry, but I couldn't resist...

Flight #24
10-31-2005, 12:45 PM
Couple a points:

- Not that it'll make a difference to Hangar, but there aren't any examples I can think of of the Sox trading a guy because he'd be too expensive in arbitration. Maggs doesn't count because of the mysterious knee that no one could look at. There are examples of them getting outbid for guys, but those generally coincided with a fairly hard payroll budget, and coming off of a title and with surging popularity, there's no evidence that there won't be a significant payroll increase in '06

- Not sure what you do with Uribe if you sign Furcal, and defensively there's no comparison. I don't see it happening, and despite the drool over the offensive potential, I'm not sure I would want to give up Uribe's glove.

- Pitching is what got this team a title, so there's little to no chance that KW doesn't continue to focus his resources on maintaining the staff. That means the only way in which he trades Garland/Contreras is if he doesn't think they can maintain their performance from 2005. If it's money, he'll cut elsewhere to keep them.

- Raises to guys under contract total $10M. Savings from Carl, Frank, Timo, etc total a few mil more ($15M). That means that you need a $10M raise just to keep most of the roster together. Going out and getting another stud hitter will require $10-15M on top of that (or trading top minor leaguers like McCarthy, Anderson, Young to get cash back in a trade), i.e. a payroll in the mid-high 90s. While it's not 100% out of the realm of possibility, it's a pretty big stretch.

itsnotrequired
10-31-2005, 12:59 PM
How did you calculate that? Furcal is going to command a hefty salary. Uribe cost us $2.15mm this year, and is locked up at 3.15mm next year, 4.15mm in 2007, and a 5mm team option for 2008.

Uribe is 26 years old, so his peak is still ahead of him. I really don't see the Sox pursuing a new shortstop this off season.

Eh, I just threw a number out there. I was commenting more on someone actually putting some thought into an aquisition rather than throwing out total pipe-dreams like getting Teixeira.

MadetoOrta
10-31-2005, 01:01 PM
Randar, I have a few questions [by the way, I've done the same $s analysis and agree that we can upgrade significantly and still only hit $85 in payroll]:

1. How long will it take to see Josh Fields at 3d base? He's supposedly doing very well in the AFL.
2. Is it conceivable that in '06 Gio Gonzalez can become a lefty relief pitcher much like Buehrle was when he came up?
3. What nationality is Furcal? If he's Venezuelan, he wouldn't be able to go home if he doesn't sign with the Sox [assuming they make a play for him].

Thanks

Canadian_SoxFan
10-31-2005, 01:01 PM
Here's who I think will be gone from this year's playoff roster:
Orlando Hernandez- replaced by Brandon McCarthy
Dustin Hermanson- deserves to go to a place where he can close
Willie Harris- He wants to start, and he can't with Iguschi ahead of him
Geoff Blum
Timo Perez
Carl Everett: replaced by Frank Thomas

I do not see any major changes. We should probably get another righty in the pen for long relief. Other than that, we will need to acquire some bench players who can fit into certain roles (pinch runner, Defensive replacement, pinch hitter)

voodoochile
10-31-2005, 01:12 PM
Here's who I think will be gone from this year's playoff roster:
Orlando Hernandez- replaced by Brandon McCarthy
Dustin Hermanson- deserves to go to a place where he can close
Willie Harris- He wants to start, and he can't with Iguschi ahead of him
Geoff Blum
Timo Perez
Carl Everett: replaced by Frank Thomas

I do not see any major changes. We should probably get another righty in the pen for long relief. Other than that, we will need to acquire some bench players who can fit into certain roles (pinch runner, Defensive replacement, pinch hitter)

The offer for Hernandez would have to knock my socks off because he is a huge safety net in case of injury to another starter or if one of the others regresses to the norm and doesn't duplicate 2005. In addition, he can take over for Hermanson or one of the other relievers. Nice to have a guy in the bullpen who does well against hitters from either side of the plate and can go 2-3 innings a couple of times a week and be brought in to pressure packed situations and expected to minimize damage.

The rest of them aren't worth much. I wouldn't be surprised to see Blum back. I doubt he gets starter money from another team and the Sox will definitely want to keep around one of the heros of the post season for marketing reasons, plus he plays addequate defense at a few positions.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox move Rowand and a package of him and Hernandez could bring a LOT in return. If the Sox can land a stud CF for that combo they would be foolish not to try.

The Sox cannot afford to count on Frank staying healthy for an entire season and desperately need a genuine #3 hitter. The only question is where do you get one and where do they play?

MadetoOrta
10-31-2005, 01:20 PM
I'd be stunned [happily so] if Big Frank ever takes another at-bat in the major leagues. I heard JR on the radio mention that it wasn't that he "re-broke the same bone in his foot. He broke a separate bone in the same foot." The fact that it's his left foot - the one he pushes off on when he hits - makes it even more unlikely you'll see him back. If the Sox sign him to an incentive-laden contract based on games/at-bats, great. I've resigned myself to not seeing Frank play another major league game. :whiner: But, with his stats and a World Series ring, here's hoping the Hurt will make it to the HOF.:bandance:

SoxSpeed22
10-31-2005, 01:28 PM
The way I see it...
Paulie>>>Overbay. Anderson will be the 4th outfielder for 2006, he still has to learn. Harris may make some trade bait and I won't be surprised if Marte goes with. El Duque will retire after 2006. McCarthy should be the 5th starter and El Duque will make an insurance starter. With the raised revenue, we should be able to resign most of our guys and maybe one or two good free agents. Carl will walk, a healthy Frank may get 1/2 the playing time. We might also need another good left-handed bat. It may be quiet though.

WestSox
10-31-2005, 01:39 PM
Am I the only one who has the sinking feeling that Contreras might morph back to his '04 form next season? Trading his ~$9 million salary for prospects and the financial freedom to re-sign Palie and be able to afford Garland's arbitration might be the best way to go. Then again, it'd be hard to part ways with the guy who was so freaking amazing this post-season.

voodoochile
10-31-2005, 01:52 PM
Am I the only one who has the sinking feeling that Contreras might morph back to his '04 form next season? Trading his ~$9 million salary for prospects and the financial freedom to re-sign Palie and be able to afford Garland's arbitration might be the best way to go. Then again, it'd be hard to part ways with the guy who was so freaking amazing this post-season.

I don't want to see them mess with the starting pitching at all. I think they should keep all 6 of them unless a deal knocks their socks off and then only El Duque should be available. The other 5 should remain Sox property unless they fall out of contention around the trade deadline.

At worst, Contreras and McCarthy give the Sox the best 4-5 combo in baseball. At best, they upgrade the offense, have 3 guys take a run at 20 wins and stomp their way into the playoffs and go undefeated this time around...

WestSox
10-31-2005, 01:59 PM
I don't want to see them mess with the starting pitching at all. I think they should keep all 6 of them unless a deal knocks their socks off and then only El Duque should be available. The other 5 should remain Sox property unless they fall out of contention around the trade deadline.

At worst, Contreras and McCarthy give the Sox the best 4-5 combo in baseball. At best, they upgrade the offense, have 3 guys take a run at 20 wins and stomp their way into the playoffs and go undefeated this time around...

After seeing what happened with the horribly unbalanced Astros this year, I'm fearful that the same might happen to the Sox next season.

But you're probably right that it's not a good idea to mess with the starting pitching. As the saying goes, you can NEVER have enough pitching...

soxfanatlanta
10-31-2005, 01:59 PM
3. What nationality is Furcal? If he's Venezuelan, he wouldn't be able to go home if he doesn't sign with the Sox [assuming they make a play for him].

Thanks

I like the idea of him not being able to show his face in Caracas because he snubbed El Ozzie, but alas, Furcal is from the Dominican Republic.

CWsox45
10-31-2005, 02:00 PM
Yeah... that's why they traded Lee...:rolleyes:

I'm just speculating. I heard that Guillen didn't like the way Lee played, something about how he didn't slide hard to break up a double play one time? Am I way off here? Sure the White Sox wanted more speed at the top of the line-up, but wasn't this a factor?

Taliesinrk
10-31-2005, 02:26 PM
I'd be stunned [happily so] if Big Frank ever takes another at-bat in the major leagues. I heard JR on the radio mention that it wasn't that he "re-broke the same bone in his foot. He broke a separate bone in the same foot." The fact that it's his left foot - the one he pushes off on when he hits - makes it even more unlikely you'll see him back. If the Sox sign him to an incentive-laden contract based on games/at-bats, great. I've resigned myself to not seeing Frank play another major league game. :whiner: But, with his stats and a World Series ring, here's hoping the Hurt will make it to the HOF.:bandance:

What??? Frank pushes off his right foot.. he's a right-handed hitter. Furthermore, you've got to be out of your mind if you think that he won't ever get another major league AB. His cast comes off this week, and he really only needs one leg. Let's be realistic, even if he's not back with the White Sox, another terrible team would be willing to pick him up strictly for the purpose of boosting attendance a bit. He averaged something ridiculous like a HR/ 7 AB's in over a month this season. He's still got a fair amount left; even if its in between trips to the DL.

Banix12
10-31-2005, 02:30 PM
My predictions:

Gone via free agency: Konerko, Everett

Trades: Rowand to Milwaukee for Lyle Overbay

Anderson gets CF nod

Resign Frank to split DH time with Joe Borchard

El Duque pitches out of the pen

Brewers OF, Carlos Lee, Brady Clark and Geoff Jenkins, and they have some guys they like in the minors like Dave Krynzel why on earth do they need Rowand. Milwaukee needs middle relief and maybe a 3b, possibly a back of the rotation starter so they might have interest in El Duque, if anybody on the sox.

Borchard isn't making the team and will get picked up on waivers by some team. LTP would look great in a Rockies uni.

I don't see Rowand being traded for the people all of you are suggesting, you all are WAY overrating his trade value. I say the same about El Duque and Marte. I think Rowand sticks around because he is a quality OF at a low price and depth is always a good thing to have.

The only changes I see are going to be minor.

Banix12
10-31-2005, 02:34 PM
If anyone wants to join me, I'm starting an "Enemies of Lyle Overbay" club. You cannot replace a player like Paul Konerko with a mediocre dope like Overbay. If Paulie walks, we better swing a deal for Helton or Delgado.

Since I've been a member at WSI, I've seen posters lust after the likes of Frank Catalanotto, Jason Kendall and Rob Mackowiak. None of these players are difference-makers. Add Overbay to this group. Anyone who thinks he is an adequate replacement for Konerko is insane. Check the numbers if you don't believe me.

I don't think we need to go after Furcal. I'm satisfied with Uribe. Is Furcal the better player? Yes, but Uribe is more than serviceable. We don't need a shortstop, nor do we need a leadoff hitter. Furcal doesn't fill any of our holes.

I consider the middle of the lineup to be the one weakness of the 2005 Sox. Fortunately, we overcame that because, for one, we have great pitching, and two, PK and Dye were both swinging well at the right time. Personally, I think Jermaine Dye would look great batting sixth instead of third. I'd like to see us get another good RBI guy for 2006, even if we keep PK.


I like Macowiak and Catallanoto as backups but other than that I'm pretty much in total agreement.

The key word for this offseason is consistancy. The sox became a bit more consistant offense last season when they brought in guys who could score without the homerun. Now I think they need to pursue less streaky hitters. While losing PK would be a hit to the sox, I don't see it as the end of the world if they can bring in a more consistant bat like a Brian Giles to take his place in the lineup.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 02:41 PM
We have the best #3 hitter in the game already. You know, the guy who has been here for 15 years, .307 lifetime AVE, about 450 HRs. You know, the Big Hurt.

And 275 pounds with bad ankles and feet. You can NOT depend on Frank Thomas ot ever stay healthy again.

Could you sign him again? Sure. But you'll have to have a built-in contingency plan and someone willing to DH prolly 2 games a week even if Frank IS healthy.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 02:42 PM
I like to think that I have a "freaking clue," but would welcome you proving me wrong.

Don't have time to do it today. Will try to get back to it later. Why would we have talked baout this during the playoffs? You've gotta go back farther than a month.

SouthSoxFan
10-31-2005, 02:43 PM
If Konerko goes, don't expect them to turn around a sign another top line free agent. We're going to be in the market for the 2nd or 3rd tier players, so think in terms of Doug Mientkiewicz, JT Snow, Travis Lee, or possibly a Jacque Jones w/ Dye moving to 1st.

MadetoOrta
10-31-2005, 02:44 PM
What??? Frank pushes off his right foot.. he's a right-handed hitter. Furthermore, you've got to be out of your mind if you think that he won't ever get another major league AB. His cast comes off this week, and he really only needs one leg. Let's be realistic, even if he's not back with the White Sox, another terrible team would be willing to pick him up strictly for the purpose of boosting attendance a bit. He averaged something ridiculous like a HR/ 7 AB's in over a month this season. He's still got a fair amount left; even if its in between trips to the DL.

If I'm wrong, Randar, let me know. Frank Thomas, for a righthanded hitter, transfers his weight to the leftside more so than other power hitters. I guess in the end what matters is it's the same foot - different bone. Ask Sam Bowie and Bill Walton what happens with a persistent foot injury. With Frank's size and strength landing on that same left foot, there's real cause for concern. KW should operate under the assumption, Frank's not coming back.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 02:48 PM
- Not sure what you do with Uribe if you sign Furcal, and defensively there's no comparison. I don't see it happening, and despite the drool over the offensive potential, I'm not sure I would want to give up Uribe's glove.

Ozzie considers Furcal a better defensive player. I consider them about equal. Furcal has better range and they both have VERY good arm, Uribe prolly getting a slight nod there. Error numbers about equivalent.

- Raises to guys under contract total $10M. Savings from Carl, Frank, Timo, etc total a few mil more ($15M). That means that you need a $10M raise just to keep most of the roster together. Going out and getting another stud hitter will require $10-15M on top of that (or trading top minor leaguers like McCarthy, Anderson, Young to get cash back in a trade), i.e. a payroll in the mid-high 90s. While it's not 100% out of the realm of possibility, it's a pretty big stretch.

And Marte, El Duque, Rowand and Uribe being traded would free up enough money to add a legit #3 or #4 hitter alone. Hell, Uribe and Rowand have deals that could make them attractive in GETTING that #3 or #4 hitter via tarde.

Those four are replaced by ???, McCarthy, Anderson adn Furcal.

I have BEFORE shown how this was feasible on an 85 million dollar payroll. You could add Giles and Furcal and resign Pauly and be around 85 million.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 02:49 PM
If Konerko goes, don't expect them to turn around a sign another top line free agent. We're going to be in the market for the 2nd or 3rd tier players, so think in terms of Doug Mientkiewicz, JT Snow, Travis Lee, or possibly a Jacque Jones w/ Dye moving to 1st.

:chickenlittle

Randar68
10-31-2005, 02:50 PM
If I'm wrong, Randar, let me know. Frank Thomas, for a righthanded hitter, transfers his weight to the leftside more so than other power hitters. I guess in the end what matters is it's the same foot - different bone. Ask Sam Bowie and Bill Walton what happens with a persistent foot injury. With Frank's size and strength landing on that same left foot, there's real cause for concern. KW should operate under the assumption, Frank's not coming back.

His swing does cause more torque and stress to his left foot than most all other RH'ed hitters. With his weight and the position he is in at contact, it's a lot of stress on that left ankle and foot.

Foot injuries take a LONG time to heal... you can resign him, but you cannot count on him being healthy, it's just the way it is now.

chisoxmike
10-31-2005, 02:52 PM
I think everything is dependent on if Konerko comes back or not.

If he doesn't, you now need a first basemen, (I don't think Gload is either going to be back or a full time player.) that can be a power hitter becuase I highly doubt the Everett love fest will continue. Frank is either back with the Sox or retired. I don't think he'll go to another team. If he's healthy, the Sox will work something out with him.

But whatever, I'm just enjoying this World Series championship, you all should too for a while.

Randar68
10-31-2005, 02:54 PM
The offer for Hernandez would have to knock my socks off because he is a huge safety net in case of injury to another starter or if one of the others regresses to the norm and doesn't duplicate 2005. In addition, he can take over for Hermanson or one of the other relievers. Nice to have a guy in the bullpen who does well against hitters from either side of the plate and can go 2-3 innings a couple of times a week and be brought in to pressure packed situations and expected to minimize damage.

The rest of them aren't worth much. I wouldn't be surprised to see Blum back. I doubt he gets starter money from another team and the Sox will definitely want to keep around one of the heros of the post season for marketing reasons, plus he plays addequate defense at a few positions.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Sox move Rowand and a package of him and Hernandez could bring a LOT in return. If the Sox can land a stud CF for that combo they would be foolish not to try.

The Sox cannot afford to count on Frank staying healthy for an entire season and desperately need a genuine #3 hitter. The only question is where do you get one and where do they play?

Is El Duque worth the $$$$ you're paying him to be a safety net? He makes fat coin. Why not try to dump as much of that salary to make some of these other moves more feasible...

"other moves" meaning picking up $$$ in trades for guys like Thome/Helton/etc or signing a guy like Giles, Furcal, etc?

Randar68
10-31-2005, 02:56 PM
Randar, I have a few questions [by the way, I've done the same $s analysis and agree that we can upgrade significantly and still only hit $85 in payroll]:

1. How long will it take to see Josh Fields at 3d base? He's supposedly doing very well in the AFL.
2. Is it conceivable that in '06 Gio Gonzalez can become a lefty relief pitcher much like Buehrle was when he came up?
3. What nationality is Furcal? If he's Venezuelan, he wouldn't be able to go home if he doesn't sign with the Sox [assuming they make a play for him].

Thanks

Fields is a couple years away from being anybody worth replacing Crede with. Start of 2007 at the earliest if he makes some giant leaps in the upcoming year.

Gio in '06? No, that's moving him WAY too quickly. Using him out of the pen is an intriguing idea, but they are being careful with him, trying not to overwork him and keep him healthy.

Furcal is Dominican, although Ozzie really, really likes him.

MadetoOrta
10-31-2005, 03:03 PM
Thanks for the info Randar.

Ol' No. 2
10-31-2005, 03:03 PM
Is El Duque worth the $$$$ you're paying him to be a safety net? He makes fat coin. Why not try to dump as much of that salary to make some of these other moves more feasible...

"other moves" meaning picking up $$$ in trades for guys like Thome/Helton/etc or signing a guy like Giles, Furcal, etc?Hernandez just has too many miles on that arm to start 25+ games. For anybody. If we don't think he can start and he's too expensive to be in the bullpen, why would anyone else have a different opinion? And if he's too expensive to be a middle reliever, how does trading him and eating half his salary solve that problem? All you're doing is paying the money and not getting his services, meanwhile providing someone else a good middle reliever.

If someone else wants him and is willing to pay his salary, make a deal. But I don't see the point in eating half his salary to make the trade.

asindc
10-31-2005, 03:25 PM
Hernandez just has too many miles on that arm to start 25+ games. For anybody. If we don't think he can start and he's too expensive to be in the bullpen, why would anyone else have a different opinion? And if he's too expensive to be a middle reliever, how does trading him and eating half his salary solve that problem? All you're doing is paying the money and not getting his services, meanwhile providing someone else a good middle reliever.

If someone else wants him and is willing to pay his salary, make a deal. But I don't see the point in eating half his salary to make the trade.

Agree 100% percent. And don't underestimate the team-oriented vibe Ozzie has established as being a factor in some players' decisions.

soxfanreggie
10-31-2005, 03:44 PM
We should have Paulie say what he thinks he should get, write it on a business card, and work from there. Hopefully he's willing to give us a little discount. We have stuck with him through his bad years and good...

ChiSoxlukes
10-31-2005, 03:53 PM
Anybody know where to look at a full list of free agents??

Banix12
10-31-2005, 04:21 PM
Anybody know where to look at a full list of free agents??

http://www.mlb4u.com

The site looks like it was designed by a third grader but don't let that fool you, it has a lot of good free agent and contract information and it seems to updated quite often.

Theanticub
10-31-2005, 05:02 PM
At the All Star Break this year, I would've said that Contreras would've been gone (I liked him when he was inconsistent, but that contract that the stupid Yanks signed him too...), but now he's basically the ace. I'd say the rotation is set at (not in order) Contreras, Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, McCarthy, leaving El Duque as odd man out, though I don't know if anyone would trade for him.

I have this feeling that Aaron might be gone, there's a nice replacement in Anderson. I hope both PK and Frank could stay, but I'd guess it's one or the other, if one at all? Other than that, I think the rest of the OF and infield will stay the same. No clue on Everett.

No comment on the bullpen since I don't know contract situations, but I'm not sure if they want to give Damaso another chance, and other teams love lefties. His numbers aren't as bad to the point where he's revealed as a headcase. No clue on Dustin. I'm guessing Cotts, Politte, Vizcaino, and Jenks are all in again.

Even if the guys suggested leave, there's the assumption of a capable replacement, and this team will be damn good again. The pitching will be there, good pen, you still have a leadoff man, you still have a closer, you have good defense. It might not be as easy, but it should be a fun battle with Cleveland

My first thought when reading the title was 'just wait and see', since there's no control over it anyhow. Plus, we just won it all, we're supposed to savor this time. These type of discussions are the only thing to talk about for teams who fell short

Note: The whole post is pure speculation :D:

Why does everyone see Rowand leaving? If he is gone next season I will be incredibly pissed off at this organization.

Rikirk
10-31-2005, 05:27 PM
My opinions on the matter..
please take with a grain of salt:rolleyes:


Keep/resign:

Paul Konerko
Frank Thomas
Everyone else


Trade:

Carl Everett
Damaso Marte
Pablo Ozuna

The team should try its best to inprove its offensive power, im not sure what power players are out ther who we can aqquire...im sure some other poster will adress that here.

I think our infield defense is solid...maybe we could tweek the outfield a bit.

The pitching rotation is perfect...dont mess with it!

But I really want to see Frank and Pauly return to the team above all else.

My 2 cents:redneck

:churrosarmy:

ilsox7
10-31-2005, 05:30 PM
Why does everyone see Rowand leaving? If he is gone next season I will be incredibly pissed off at this organization.

Because Brian Anderson is probably just as good defensively and has the potential to be better that Aaron offensively. Not to mention Aaron's value is pretty high right now. Might be the time to move him given our large number of outfield prospects on the brink of being major leaguers somewhere.

nodiggity59
10-31-2005, 05:41 PM
Because Brian Anderson is probably just as good defensively and has the potential to be better that Aaron offensively. Not to mention Aaron's value is pretty high right now. Might be the time to move him given our large number of outfield prospects on the brink of being major leaguers somewhere.

Thing is, I agree Anderson will be an upgrade over Rowand at some point, but probably not in 06. If we resign Paulie, excatly what can Rowand bring in a trade that we don't already have? Acquiring prospects is no good b/c they might lose value by the time the deadline rolls around.

If we lose Paulie, THEN I say deal Aaron at a momen'ts notice as part of, say, a Delgado deal.

Altough one name I just thought of is Ryan Howard. Not a bad guy to have around even if we keep Paulie. But overall, the chances that trading Aaron will help us this year, if we keep Paulie, are slim IMO.

ilsox7
10-31-2005, 05:43 PM
Thing is, I agree Anderson will be an upgrade over Rowand at some point, but probably not in 06. If we resign Paulie, excatly what can Rowand bring in a trade that we don't already have? Acquiring prospects is no good b/c they might lose value by the time the deadline rolls around.

If we lose Paulie, THEN I say deal Aaron at a momen'ts notice as part of, say, a Delgado deal.

Altough one name I just thought of is Ryan Howard. Not a bad guy to have around even if we keep Paulie. But overall, the chances that trading Aaron will help us this year, if we keep Paulie, are slim IMO.

He could be packaged with a Marte or Hernandez to bring in a left-handed DH. There are a ton of options, so who really knows. I think most people are just saying trading Rowand is a possibility...and seeing as though most of our guys aren't under consideration for trades and he is, you'll hear his name thrown around quite a bit.

Banix12
10-31-2005, 05:56 PM
I hate to keep harping on this, but why do most of you keep talking about Rowand's trade value being high right now? His trade value was probably higher BEFORE this last season. Now he has a bit of a name, I get that, but I think you are all fooling yourselves thinking GM's are out there salivating over getting Aaron Rowand.

If you are talking about bringing in a big name player like a Delgado or a Manny, then just forget about Rowand being a key player in that trade. The OF on the White Sox with the highest trade value IS Brian Anderson because he is cheaper than Rowand, has a higher ceiling than rowand, and the team would own Anderson's rights longer than they would own Rowand's.

I say the same thing about Marte, and the same about El Duque. You are all freakin' insane thinking GM's are gonna give up more than mid-level prospects for these guys. Now maybe that can work out and the sox pick up another diamond in the rough like Juan Uribe, but even if you package these guys together it's not going to equal a big time player.

nodiggity59
10-31-2005, 06:01 PM
I hate to keep harping on this, but why do most of you keep talking about Rowand's trade value being high right now? His trade value was probably higher BEFORE this last season. Now he has a bit of a name, I get that, but I think you are all fooling yourselves thinking GM's are out there salivating over getting Aaron Rowand.

If you are talking about bringing in a big name player like a Delgado or a Manny, then just forget about Rowand being a key player in that trade. The OF on the White Sox with the highest trade value IS Brian Anderson because he is cheaper than Rowand, has a higher ceiling than rowand, and the team would own Anderson's rights longer than they would own Rowand's.

I say the same thing about Marte, and the same about El Duque. You are all freakin' insane thinking GM's are gonna give up more than mid-level prospects for these guys. Now maybe that can work out and the sox pick up another diamond in the rough like Juan Uribe, but even if you package these guys together it's not going to equal a big time player.

True. Though I have become enamored by a Rowand-Marte-mid prospect for Ryan Howard deal. Thome isn't going anywhere w/ that deal and Phils need a center fielder and insurance if Wagner leaves. Howard would be perfect for us b/c he gives us Paulie insurance and wouldn't mind DH'ing if it meant a start every day. Plus he's cheap.

Ah, the Hot Stove

WestSox
10-31-2005, 06:03 PM
Thing is, I agree Anderson will be an upgrade over Rowand at some point

And hopefully he'll be able to run the bases more intelligently than Rowand did this post-season.

flo-B-flo
10-31-2005, 07:46 PM
I'm to busy enjoying this triumph to put much thought into this ****. Good reading tho'.

Banix12
10-31-2005, 08:00 PM
True. Though I have become enamored by a Rowand-Marte-mid prospect for Ryan Howard deal. Thome isn't going anywhere w/ that deal and Phils need a center fielder and insurance if Wagner leaves. Howard would be perfect for us b/c he gives us Paulie insurance and wouldn't mind DH'ing if it meant a start every day. Plus he's cheap.

Ah, the Hot Stove

Thank god for Pink and that you use it. So many others here need to start.

Again this is another one of those suggestions where people are throwing out suggestions just assuming the other general managers are total morons. Certainly some are, but not all. Howard would be perfect for the white sox but Howard also is a stud prospect and the Phillies top trading chip. I could see Howard coming but I only see it as possible as a swap of top prospects. Say Howard for Anderson.

Closers are also readily available this offseason, Philly trading for one is likely unnecessary. Hell, the white sox and brewers each got their closer by robbing the Angels on the waiver wire so there are closers everywhere.

nodiggity59
10-31-2005, 09:24 PM
Thank god for Pink and that you use it. So many others here need to start.

Again this is another one of those suggestions where people are throwing out suggestions just assuming the other general managers are total morons. Certainly some are, but not all. Howard would be perfect for the white sox but Howard also is a stud prospect and the Phillies top trading chip. I could see Howard coming but I only see it as possible as a swap of top prospects. Say Howard for Anderson.

Closers are also readily available this offseason, Philly trading for one is likely unnecessary. Hell, the white sox and brewers each got their closer by robbing the Angels on the waiver wire so there are closers everywhere.

Lol I knew I was going off the deep end. But seriously, Ryan Howard for 2006. Offer any prospect besides BMac, even Young. The guy would kill for PT, even at DH, and would be a huge upgrade over Crazy. Plus he'd play for 400K.

Deadguy
10-31-2005, 10:00 PM
I'd be stunned [happily so] if Big Frank ever takes another at-bat in the major leagues. I heard JR on the radio mention that it wasn't that he "re-broke the same bone in his foot. He broke a separate bone in the same foot." The fact that it's his left foot - the one he pushes off on when he hits - makes it even more unlikely you'll see him back. If the Sox sign him to an incentive-laden contract based on games/at-bats, great. I've resigned myself to not seeing Frank play another major league game. :whiner: But, with his stats and a World Series ring, here's hoping the Hurt will make it to the HOF.:bandance:

You might be right, but some reason for optimism is that Thomas won't need surgery, so he could be out of his cast by December.

I thought his career was over after July, but I think he will make at least one more attempt to play.

Just some things from some recent articles to take into account as far as the chances of him returning next year are concerned:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051027&content_id=1260909&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051014&content_id=1249952&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws

Thomas not only reported that the examination found bone growth in the most recently damaged area, but also explained that his cast will be replaced by a walking boot in two weeks. Thomas was hoping for that move to take place Thursday, but Dr. Ferkel operated on the side of caution and protection with another possible celebration on the horizon.


The most significant piece of news delivered by Thomas was surgery looks to be anything but a necessity at this point.

"Yesterday was very encouraging," said Thomas of his latest examination. "It doesn't look like surgery, and that's a good thing. I don't want surgery. I'll stay in a cast until December if I have to because I don't want to get back to surgery. "I feel fine and stood on it with no pain," added Thomas with a smile. "But [Dr. Ferkel] wasn't happy because I wanted to test it right away."


As for worries about the ankle problems becoming chronic, interrupting his plan to play three more solid years and pick up 52 home runs for 500, Thomas wouldn't entertain that thought. Not after the latest round of news was so encouraging.

"The first fracture wasn't all the way healed when I came back, and then I got back there with all this weight," Thomas said. "I'm not a small guy. Eight months wasn't long enough. I probably should have been out 10 or 10 1/2 months. "I just have to get this thing healthy. This is the key. If it's healthy, I'm ready to play for a while."



Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf stands as possibly the only figure within the White Sox organization as misunderstood as Thomas. Maybe the reason for that sort of judgment is people really don't know either one of the men who helped make the franchise what it is today. But Reinsdorf appreciates his slugger, and Thomas feels the same way about the man in charge.

As Reinsdorf was talking to a group of eight or nine media members after the clinching victory, trapped against the wall outside the clubhouse, Thomas pushed his way through to rescue the chairman.

"Let the man breathe," said Thomas, before hugging Reinsdorf. "Don't forget this guy here," Reinsdorf added, pointing to Thomas. "He didn't play all year, but when he did play, he won a lot of games for us."

Frank also mentioned in an audio interview that he wants to play for three more years. These are all things and proper propaganda any player in their right mind would say and perpetrate to the public when there are potentionally millions of dollars left on the table in the near future, but if Thomas can be healthy, he can still be one of the better hitters in the league with his power and ability to get on base. Quickness, agility, and bat speed all leave players who are Thomas' age and aren't on 'roids, but power is the last thing to leave an athlete. Thomas also still has a great batter's eye that he couldn't use much to his advantage last year because he couldn't run the bases and had to be more aggressive, and quickness and agility were never with him even in his prime.

KRS1
10-31-2005, 11:44 PM
Here's our 06' situation in a nutshell....
LOCKED UP (13)
=========
HITTERS
Iguchi- 2.4 .
Rowand- 3.25 .
Uribe- 3.15 .
Dye- 5 .
Thomas- 10 .
Podsednik-2 .
25.8
=================
PITCHERS
Marte- 2.25 .
Garcia- 9 .
Hermanson-3 .
Buehrle- 7.75 .
Contreras-8 .
Hernandez-4.5 .
Politte- 1.2 .
35.7
----------------
61.5mil

PROTECTED(11)
=========
Garland
Vizcaino
Crede
Harris
Cotts
Jenks
Gload
McCarthy
Anderson
Borchard
Perez

FA(4)
==
Ozuna
Konerko
Widger
Blum

With our other 3 pitchers salaries one can assume that Jon will make about 8 mil. and with the contracts we gave to our bench guys You might also believe that Harris, Gload, and Borchard will each make about 1 mil. I think we will bring back Viz for about 1.2 and Cotts for 2-3 in a long term deal. Anderson, and McCarthy will make the minumum(400k). I dont know about Bobby, but he should get a nice contract even though he's protected. This leaves Crede as our big arb. guy. Paul will garner a big contract and Pablo will most likely get 1mil+ as the #1 guy off our bench. These are strictly estimates on my behalf allbeit good or not.

Let me know what u think.

Banix12
11-01-2005, 12:12 AM
With our other 3 pitchers salaries one can assume that Jon will make about 8 mil. and with the contracts we gave to our bench guys You might also believe that Harris, Gload, and Borchard will each make about 1 mil. I think we will bring back Viz for about 1.2 and Cotts for 2-3 in a long term deal. Anderson, and McCarthy will make the minumum(400k). I dont know about Bobby, but he should get a nice contract even though he's protected. This leaves Crede as our big arb. guy. Paul will garner a big contract and Pablo will most likely get 1mil+ as the #1 guy off our bench. These are strictly estimates on my behalf allbeit good or not.

Let me know what u think.

Your contract estimates are probably way off, cut them in half and you'll get a little closer but you are probably still high. No way on earth do Harris, Gload, or Borchard make as much as you say they would be released before they make a million dollars in 2006, they are easily replaceable parts who barely played this year. Also I doubt Borchard even makes the squad. The sox don't owe Ozuna any extra money either and he probably will get a slight raise but not 1 mil. Jenks will continue on his current deal because he hasn't yet earned a raise.

Man I wish you were my boss because you throw around $1 million dollar contracts like candy.

voodoochile
11-01-2005, 12:23 AM
Is El Duque worth the $$$$ you're paying him to be a safety net? He makes fat coin. Why not try to dump as much of that salary to make some of these other moves more feasible...

"other moves" meaning picking up $$$ in trades for guys like Thome/Helton/etc or signing a guy like Giles, Furcal, etc?

It's a possibility for sure, but who is going to take on that salary with his history of injury problems? I think the Sox would be better off packaging him and trying to get a lot in return by offering a fair package. They probably have some pitchers in AAA who they can part with right now. What about Honel? Last I heard he was injured, but he used to have a huge upside? Heck, throw in Fields and make a run at signing Crede long term. I can't think of anyone now who seriously wants to go through this stuff again. Fields has the pedigree but not the experience. Crede is a proven commodity and is just entering his prime.

The other possibility is to move Crede to first when Fields is ready, but that means dumping PK and Crede WON'T replace those power numbers ever in his career, IMO.

KRS1
11-01-2005, 12:30 AM
Your contract estimates are probably way off, cut them in half and you'll get a little closer but you are probably still high. No way on earth do Harris, Gload, or Borchard make as much as you say they would be released before they make a million dollars in 2006, they are easily replaceable parts who barely played next year. Also I doubt Borchard even makes the squad. The sox don't owe Ozuna any extra money either and he probably will get a slight raise but not 1 mil. Jenks will continue on his current deal because he hasn't yet earned a raise.

Man I wish you were my boss because you throw around $1 million dollar contracts like candy.

Dude Perez made 1 mil last year, we paid Ben Davis 1 mil to sit in AAA and get hurt. I personally would rather pay Harris and Gload 1mil then either of those pudwhacks. My locked up contracts are accurate if that what u were talking about as ure first statement. I was merely going on precident of paying our bench guys. Also,I hope we give Borch the 25th spot on our team as an extra outfielder and DH since Timo's all but gone. I think Ozuna will get around the million dollar marker. Yes these guys will sit on the bench, but theybetter than most other bench players in the A.L.

Also I would like to add that Duque might not give us anything of reasonable value in return for a trade, so 4.5 for a bullpen guy is just ludicrous and we need to either restructure or trade him for low-level prospects. Aaron might get us a quality reliever or minor league arm if we throw in another player(Marte). That being said our salary could be much lower than project in my graph.

knocko94
11-01-2005, 12:43 AM
Dude Perez made 1 mil last year, we paid Ben Davis 1 mil to sit in AAA and get hurt. I personally would rather pay Harris and Gload 1mil then either of those pudwhacks. My locked up contracts are accurate if that what u were talking about as ure first statement. I was merely going on precident of paying our bench guys. Also,I hope we give Borch the 25th spot on our team as an extra outfielder and DH since Timo's all but gone. I think Ozuna will get around the million dollar marker. Yes these guys will sit on the bench, but theybetter than most other bench players in the A.L.

Also I would like to add that Duque might not give us anything of reasonable value in return for a trade, so 4.5 for a bullpen guy is just ludicrous and we need to either restructure or trade him for low-level prospects. Aaron might get us a quality reliever or minor league arm if we throw in another player(Marte). That being said our salary could be much lower than project in my graph.

DUDE, Davis and Timo made a million because they have been in the majors for a few years. Davis was a high first round pick (2nd?) so his contract is lucrative. Timo is what, 30 years old, and has picked up some pay raises along the way.

Ozuna, Harris, Gload, Jenks, Cotts all have very little service time. You know what that means? It means they don't get paid crap. The White Sox can pay them whatever they want. Buehrle had a good season, maybe 3 years ago, and couldn't come to terms on a long term deal with the Sox. And the Sox actually decreased his salary for the following season because he had no leverage. I think he made 350k. Just like all these guys.

voodoochile
11-01-2005, 12:56 AM
Don't be a...
:dumbass:

In general, that tag is reserved for people who are rude, sexist, racist or trolling. Since the poster in question really wasn't doing any of those things, you went out of your way to start a fight.

I for one don't appreciate it. We try to run a fairly clean forum here and ripping on people just because they don't know or because they are misguided or becuase you disagree with them is really not allowed and completely uncalled for. In short, if there is a dumbass in the past few posts, I think it's you.

Of course that's just MY opinion. What you do with it is completely up to you...:smile:

soxfanreggie
11-01-2005, 01:23 AM
I know this could be a taboo subject, but there are certain people that need to see this quote from Voodoo

"I for one don't appreciate it. We try to run a fairly clean forum here and ripping on people just because they don't know or because they are misguided or becuase you disagree with them is really not allowed and completely uncalled for. In short, if there is a dumbass in the past few posts, I think it's you."

Unfortunately there are people out there who do not like when people have differing opinions than their own. I definitely agree with you Voodoo that everyone should be entitled to their own opinion.

Banix12
11-01-2005, 01:42 AM
Dude Perez made 1 mil last year, we paid Ben Davis 1 mil to sit in AAA and get hurt. I personally would rather pay Harris and Gload 1mil then either of those pudwhacks. My locked up contracts are accurate if that what u were talking about as ure first statement. I was merely going on precident of paying our bench guys. Also,I hope we give Borch the 25th spot on our team as an extra outfielder and DH since Timo's all but gone. I think Ozuna will get around the million dollar marker. Yes these guys will sit on the bench, but theybetter than most other bench players in the A.L.

Also I would like to add that Duque might not give us anything of reasonable value in return for a trade, so 4.5 for a bullpen guy is just ludicrous and we need to either restructure or trade him for low-level prospects. Aaron might get us a quality reliever or minor league arm if we throw in another player(Marte). That being said our salary could be much lower than project in my graph.

Knocko is right about the service time being the driving factor for Davis and Timo, probably should have mentioned that in my post. Also when those contracts were given to Timo and Davis, Timo had earned a spot on the next year's roster (no matter what some of us said) and they felt Davis might have to be their starting catcher (we were just fortunate AJ came on the market).

None of the guys you mentioned other than cotts and jenks I believe have earned a guaranteed spot on the roster next season. Harris, Gload, Borchard, Ozuna and even Blum, Timo and Widger do not have job security with the white sox and will have to earn roster spots next spring training.

And they are not among the better bench players in the AL, I'd say the white sox bench was actually pretty poor last season outside of Widger and Ozuna and to a lesser extent Harris.

TheOldRoman
11-01-2005, 02:55 AM
Im not even worried about this, at this point. All we have to do is look at how the SOX have done business in the past. If we go strictly with that, you can rest assured that the players who are Sought after Free Agents will be GONE.

You can also safely assume that anyone due a Big Raise in their contracts, or anyone coming off a Great Year and Arbitration Eligible will also be GONE.

That said, say goodbye to Paul Konerko, John Garland for sure. Joe Crede whom I also believe to be arbitration eligible, will end up signing a short term deal because we simply do not have anyone to play 3rd right now. And then we start all over, needing a proven RBI/BAT, another RBI/Bat to bat in the 3rd spot, and hope that BMcCarthy can fill the role of Jon Garland
Hangar, I feel bad for you. I really do. You aren't right. You need to seek professional help. They will make you all better. They will put you in a room where you can't hurt yourself. You sanity is GONE.
This tripe (without evidence - the Hangar specialty) was run of the mill for the entire season. However, WE JUST WON THE WORLD ****ING SERIES. I know you hate KW and you stab away at your Reinsdorf Voodoo doll every day, but this is low. Even for you. KW is a good GM. He will get the job done. Payroll will go up substantially this year. Just like it did the last few years, but even moreso. That's ok, if it doesn't fit into one of your crazy conspiracy theories, you dont believe it. Like I said before, you are the Dale Gribble of WSI.


http://boards.marihemp.com/boards/marketplace/media/127/tn_127644.jpg
[Hangar] "The Sox won't raise payroll. That is what they want you to think. Jerry Reinsdorf has formed an evil alliance with the Tribune. Both are intent on taking me out. Jerry will tell the press that he is spending in the area of $95mil this year. He will actually slash payroll down to $35mil. He is currently importing portuguese dopplegangers to imitate our entire rotation, so the fans dont realize they have all been traded. He will not only let Konerko go, he will trade Garland, Crede, and Rowand. He won't sign any good free agents. In fact, he wont sign ANY. During secretive meetings, he has already received permission from Bud Selig to take the field next year with only 6 players. Podsednik will move to CF, Uribe will move to first, and they will play "left side out". JR will funnel his savings through the Tribune Company to the Andes Mountains, where they are working on a weather machine. Reinsdorf is intent on taking over the world and providing Chicago with mediocre baseball. I know too much."

[Hank] *Sigh* Shut up, Hangar.

TheOldRoman
11-01-2005, 02:58 AM
Thank god for Pink and that you use it. So many others here need to start.

Again this is another one of those suggestions where people are throwing out suggestions just assuming the other general managers are total morons. Certainly some are, but not all. Howard would be perfect for the white sox but Howard also is a stud prospect and the Phillies top trading chip. I could see Howard coming but I only see it as possible as a swap of top prospects. Say Howard for Anderson.

Closers are also readily available this offseason, Philly trading for one is likely unnecessary. Hell, the white sox and brewers each got their closer by robbing the Angels on the waiver wire so there are closers everywhere.
This Ryan Howard talk needs to stop. There is no way in hell the Phillies are moving Howard. They will eat 1/2 of Thome's salary if they have to inorder to get rid of him. Thome will likely get moved in the offseason. Even if they can't trade him, there is no way they even think about moving Howard. He is a damn good player. They are moving Thome to get playing time for Howard, not the other way around.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 09:42 AM
I hate to keep harping on this, but why do most of you keep talking about Rowand's trade value being high right now? His trade value was probably higher BEFORE this last season. Now he has a bit of a name, I get that, but I think you are all fooling yourselves thinking GM's are out there salivating over getting Aaron Rowand.

If you are talking about bringing in a big name player like a Delgado or a Manny, then just forget about Rowand being a key player in that trade. The OF on the White Sox with the highest trade value IS Brian Anderson because he is cheaper than Rowand, has a higher ceiling than rowand, and the team would own Anderson's rights longer than they would own Rowand's.

I say the same thing about Marte, and the same about El Duque. You are all freakin' insane thinking GM's are gonna give up more than mid-level prospects for these guys. Now maybe that can work out and the sox pick up another diamond in the rough like Juan Uribe, but even if you package these guys together it's not going to equal a big time player.

These things are all true, IMO. However, El Duque, Rowand and Marte make something along the lines of a combined 11 million dollars that can be VERY valuable used elsewhere. Pauly, a #3 hitter, etc. You've got Anderson to play CF, etc.

In addition, Rowand is in the last year of his 2-year contract with a team option for 5 million dollars for 2007. It would be silly to trade the cheaper option and risk Young not being ready in 2007 and having to pay that 5 million for Rowand. You trade Rowand for whatever you can get, hopefully you can get a lefty specialist to replace Marte (allowing you to dump his $2.25 million salary).

This is all a matter of trade-offs. You may not get the prospects back for Rowand, and he won't be the centerpiece in any big deal, although he could be a valuable piece to a big deal for a 1B/DH/#3 hitter.

El Duque is an interesting case. You may end up paying part of his 5 million dollar deal in 2006 if you want to trade him unless you make him a part of a deal for a long-term contract. In that scenario, you're trading contract dollars for contract dollars. He only has one year remaining, so it's not a big commitment for a team like Florida, Philly, Colorado, etc in any deal that is bringing you a big contract in return.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 09:49 AM
This Ryan Howard talk needs to stop. There is no way in hell the Phillies are moving Howard. They will eat 1/2 of Thome's salary if they have to inorder to get rid of him. Thome will likely get moved in the offseason. Even if they can't trade him, there is no way they even think about moving Howard. He is a damn good player. They are moving Thome to get playing time for Howard, not the other way around.

Bingo.

zmz723
11-01-2005, 10:26 AM
http://www.mlb4u.com (http://www.mlb4u.com/)

The site looks like it was designed by a third grader but don't let that fool you, it has a lot of good free agent and contract information and it seems to updated quite often.

we offered mccarthy, marte, and crede for billy wagner????

SouthSoxFan
11-01-2005, 12:53 PM
Interesting that there has been very little talk of finding a proven closer in 2006. It won't be Hermanson. So is everyone counting on Jenks for a full season of closing? I think there's a lot of risk there. I'd rate that our #2 priority, behind a left-handed middle of the lineup hitter.

Chicken Dinner
11-01-2005, 01:00 PM
we offered mccarthy, marte, and crede for billy wagner????

Wow, that's expensive.

Flight #24
11-01-2005, 01:55 PM
These things are all true, IMO. However, El Duque, Rowand and Marte make something along the lines of a combined 11 million dollars that can be VERY valuable used elsewhere. Pauly, a #3 hitter, etc. You've got Anderson to play CF, etc.

In addition, Rowand is in the last year of his 2-year contract with a team option for 5 million dollars for 2007. It would be silly to trade the cheaper option and risk Young not being ready in 2007 and having to pay that 5 million for Rowand. You trade Rowand for whatever you can get, hopefully you can get a lefty specialist to replace Marte (allowing you to dump his $2.25 million salary).

This is all a matter of trade-offs. You may not get the prospects back for Rowand, and he won't be the centerpiece in any big deal, although he could be a valuable piece to a big deal for a 1B/DH/#3 hitter.

El Duque is an interesting case. You may end up paying part of his 5 million dollar deal in 2006 if you want to trade him unless you make him a part of a deal for a long-term contract. In that scenario, you're trading contract dollars for contract dollars. He only has one year remaining, so it's not a big commitment for a team like Florida, Philly, Colorado, etc in any deal that is bringing you a big contract in return.

Per MLB4U, the salaries line up as: Duque (4.5), Rowand (3.25), Marte (2.25) = $10M. Add in Uribe (3.15) and it's about $13M. So you could do that and get enough cash back to get your #3 hitter, but I don't think there's enough to say do that AND sign Furcal and keep Paulie. Unless you cut elsewhere i.e. Garland/AJ, or get a fairly decent pay bump.

Raises to guys under contract are $10. Savings from Frank, Carl, Timo, Shingo are $13. Garland, AJ, Paulie will all get sizeable raises, which will eat up the $3M net savings and probably take an additional $10M or so, so you're already working with that increase in payroll to $85M. While it's not out of the question, it is a bit of a stretch to expect a payroll closer to $95M, which is what it would require to either sign an impact guy on top of keeping everyone or make a trade like you suggest and sign an impact guy on top of that.

Paulwny
11-01-2005, 02:06 PM
Per MLB4U, the salaries line up as: Duque (4.5), Rowand (3.25), Marte (2.25) = $10M. Add in Uribe (3.15) and it's about $13M. So you could do that and get enough cash back to get your #3 hitter, but I don't think there's enough to say do that AND sign Furcal and keep Paulie. Unless you cut elsewhere i.e. Garland/AJ, or get a fairly decent pay bump.

Raises to guys under contract are $10. Savings from Frank, Carl, Timo, Shingo are $13. Garland, AJ, Paulie will all get sizeable raises, which will eat up the $3M net savings and probably take an additional $10M or so, so you're already working with that increase in payroll to $85M. While it's not out of the question, it is a bit of a stretch to expect a payroll closer to $95M, which is what it would require to either sign an impact guy on top of keeping everyone or make a trade like you suggest and sign an impact guy on top of that.


Good call, rumor has it, Furcal is looking for Renteria $$$, 4yrs, > $8 mil per.

Procol Harum
11-01-2005, 02:20 PM
Good call, rumor has it, Furcal is looking for Renteria $$$, 4yrs, > $8 mil per.

Too 'spensive; Furcal good, but me likie what I've seen from Uribe this year--I'd rather spend moolah on a closer or on an upgrade on Rowand.

P.S. Paul: As a fellow certified WSI gaffer, let me extend belated, but heartfelt old-timer huzzahs on the 2005 World Champeen Chicago White Sox. You should get extra credit for keeping the flame lit in the Buffalo area among all those Skankee fans.

Paulwny
11-01-2005, 02:39 PM
P.S. Paul: As a fellow certified WSI gaffer, let me extend belated, but heartfelt old-timer huzzahs on the 2005 World Champeen Chicago White Sox. You should get extra credit for keeping the flame lit in the Buffalo area among all those Skankee fans.

Thanks.
A few days ago I was wearing my sox hat and jacket, I passed a yank fan wearing yank gear. He said, "Sox fan huh ?" "Yep" I replied
He then said , "Congrats, wear the colors proudly."

The long wait is over for us "old gaffers".

Randar68
11-01-2005, 02:48 PM
Per MLB4U, the salaries line up as: Duque (4.5), Rowand (3.25), Marte (2.25) = $10M. Add in Uribe (3.15) and it's about $13M. So you could do that and get enough cash back to get your #3 hitter, but I don't think there's enough to say do that AND sign Furcal and keep Paulie. Unless you cut elsewhere i.e. Garland/AJ, or get a fairly decent pay bump.

Raises to guys under contract are $10. Savings from Frank, Carl, Timo, Shingo are $13. Garland, AJ, Paulie will all get sizeable raises, which will eat up the $3M net savings and probably take an additional $10M or so, so you're already working with that increase in payroll to $85M. While it's not out of the question, it is a bit of a stretch to expect a payroll closer to $95M, which is what it would require to either sign an impact guy on top of keeping everyone or make a trade like you suggest and sign an impact guy on top of that.

WE'VE GONE OVER THIS BEFORE...

With raises and losses included, resigning Pauly for 10-12 million would put us about where we were at the start of this season. Please also consider the effect of the 5 million dollar option/contracts that Uribe and Rowand have for 2007 in your reasoning as well.

85 million dollars can get you Furcal and a #3 hitter in addition to Paul Konerko. BTW, El Duque received bonuses to his contract for innings pitched that IIRC also escalate his 2006 salary (not 100%).

Frank and Carl are gone, Timo and Shingo and Ben Davis... GONE. No more of this half-ass partial analysis, guys. You want to prove me wrong, go all out. It can be done for 85 million if you're willing to make some trades and dump some salary in certain areas. Uribe, Rowand, El Duque and Marte all gone.

So, if we're able to operate under this assumption:

"due to expiring contracts and writing off the buy-out clauses on Frank and Carl, resigning Pauly and giving appropriate raises puts us at approximately 2005 payroll"

then good luck convincing me that we can't get a #3 hitter and Furcal and be at 85 million dollar payroll.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 02:58 PM
Too 'spensive; Furcal good, but me likie what I've seen from Uribe this year--I'd rather spend moolah on a closer or on an upgrade on Rowand.

P.S. Paul: As a fellow certified WSI gaffer, let me extend belated, but heartfelt old-timer huzzahs on the 2005 World Champeen Chicago White Sox. You should get extra credit for keeping the flame lit in the Buffalo area among all those Skankee fans.

Closer = Jenks. Back-up = Hermanson
Rowand replacement = Brian Anderson at $350k...

Use that money wisely. Rowand and Uribe both set to make 5 million or more in 2007.

Furcal would be a GREAT signing at 8 million, but I suspect he'll command closer to 10. Would also really like to see them pursue Giles to at least explore if he'll leave the west coast. Then it's on to the trading market for a #3 hitter...

Deuce
11-01-2005, 03:21 PM
Frank and Carl are gone.

Frank isn't gone. Not yet, at least.

Deuce

Randar68
11-01-2005, 03:25 PM
Ok, let's just go over some of the numbers:

Salaries coming off the books:

Shingo's salary (2.5 million)
Carl's salary ( 4 million) - 500k buyout
Frank's salary (8 million) - 3.5M buyout
Timo + Blum = ~ (1.55 million)
Ben Davis something like (1+ million)
Konerko's (8.75 million)

now, taking those losses of approximately 25.8 million dollars subtracted from the 2005 payroll that now will be redirected toward raises and FA's.

25.8 million dollars to spend before even factoring in a payroll bump. If you accept my proposed payroll bump of 10 million dollars based on playoff, attendance increases, season tickets, and the fact that JR had money allocated that KW left on the table this year because none of the big names were moved at the deadline... here is what we have...

~36 million dollars to spend.

- So, hypothetically speaking, we resign Pauly to a 4/50 million dollar deal.

- Now we're at 23.5 million to spend.

- Sign Furcal for 5/50 million.

- Now we're at 13.5 million left.

- Say we use all that remaining cash on raises and long-term deals to Crede, AJ, Garland, Frank a short-term incentive-laden deal, etc...

-----So, we've resigned Pauly, signed Furcal and we've also kept everyone else not listed above.

Now we have the option of trading Marte, Rowand, Uribe, and El Duque to free up additional approximate 13 million dollars of cash to acquire that #3 hitter. Say we can structure a deal where we end up owing 10 million a year for a player we acquire, be it Giles in FA, Delgado, Thome or Helton via trade, etc...

Rowand is replaced by Anderson, Uribe by Furcal, trading Marte requires you find a lefty specialst on the market or via trade, and El Duque is replaced in the rotation by McCarthy.

Your lineup is:
Pods
Furcal
Giles/Helton/Thome/Delgado
Konerko
Dye
Iguchi
AJ
Crede
Anderson

You have on the bench:
Ozuna, Borch, Frank, need a couple other low-cost utility players... Gload maybe. Blum?

Bullpen:
Lefty-Specialist TBD
Politte
Hermanson
Cotts
Vizcaino
Jenks

Rotation:
Contreras
Buehrle
Garcia
Garland
McCarthy

And your payroll is right around 85 million dollars. Show me where I've miscalculated or estimated so poorly.

Flight #24
11-01-2005, 03:28 PM
then good luck convincing me that we can't get a #3 hitter and Furcal and be at 85 million dollar payroll.

Konerko's not going to be staying at 10-12M - more like $14M, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't think that'll make the difference.

Here's the roster with raises:
Infield: Iguchi (.075), Uribe (1), Crede (arb award less .4), AJ (arb award less 2.25)-->TOTAL RAISE = $1.75 plus raises to Crede & AJ
Outfield: Podsednik (1.2), Rowand (1.25), Dye (1)-->TOTAL RAISE = $3.5M
Rotation: Buehrle(1.75), Garcia(1), Contreras (0), Garland (arb award - 3.5), Duque(1)-->TOTAL RAISE = $3.75 plus Garland's raise
Bullpen: Marte (1), Hermanson(1), Politte ($.3), Jenks (0), Vizacino (0), Cotts (0)-->TOTAL RAISE = $2.3

Total raises to guys listed above = $11.3 plus raises to Garland, AJ, Crede
Salaries cut: Carl (4.5), Shingo (2.5), Timo (1), Ben Davis (1), Frank (4.5) = $13.5

Thus before considering raises to Paulie, Garland, AJ, Crede you have about $2-3M in savings. If Paulie gets $14 ($5M raise), Garland gets $7 ($3.5M raise), AJ gets $5($2.5M raise), and Crede $2(1.5M raise) - that totals $12.5M in raises.

$2.5 in raises offset by $2-3M in net savings means an increase of $10M in payroll just to keep everyone.

Now you want to cut Rowand(3.25), Duque(4.5), Uribe(3.15), Marte(2.25) salaries, which saves you about $13M. That gets you a #3 hitter in trade. You still need $8-10M in 2006 savings/payroll bump over $10M/cash back in trade to sign Furcal. As for 2007, Rowand & Uribe are due a combined $2.75M in raises from '06 to '07, not insignificant, but not a large long-term savings. You also haven't addressed replacing Marte, which will probably cost a couple mil.

Not impossible, but IMO unlikely. I'd wager payroll will be around $90M and will include resigning some guys to buy out arb years but not signing a major FA.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 03:28 PM
Frank isn't gone. Not yet, at least.

Deuce

His contract is. they ain't picking up that 10 million dollar option, DUH.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 03:29 PM
Not impossible, but IMO unlikely. I'd wager payroll will be around $90M and will include resigning some guys to buy out arb years but not signing a major FA.

If we end up around 90 million then my plan is EXTREMELY feasible.

gf2020
11-01-2005, 03:32 PM
due to expiring contracts and writing off the buy-out clauses on Frank and Carl, resigning Pauly and giving appropriate raises puts us at approximately 2005 payroll.

That assumption is just plain wrong. First off, no team "writes off" buy-outs. They are part of the payroll whether you like it or not. With Frank and Carl, that's 4 million that's on the books no matter what you do.

No more of this half-ass partial analysis, guys.

You seemingly have cornered the market on that all by yourself. I am still waiting for you to show me the math you've "done several times before." I am talking specific figures instead of saying. Please show me your payroll where the Sox, as constituted, will have a 76 million dollar payroll after signing Konerko. You said you would be happy too. It would also be nice if you could show how we could add Furcal (8 mil most likely) and Delgado (13.5 mil. Forget about Giles. He's vetoed trades here before and has been reported to be signing with the Cardinals.) after removing Uribe, Marte, Rowand and El Duque, without taking on any additional payroll from our trade partners other than Delgado (which is completely implausible, but let's assume that KW could work miracles) and still end up at around 85 million, which you said could be done. The difference between 85 and 90 million is not insignificant afterall, especiall when we are already increasing payroll by 10 mil to get to 85.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 03:35 PM
That assumption is just plain wrong. First off, no team "writes off" buy-outs. They are part of the payroll whether you like it or not. With Frank and Carl, that's 4 million that's on the books no matter what you do.


LOL, ok... JR had approximately 5 million dollars allocated to KW to acquire someone at the deadline. You convince him to redirect that toward buyouts of Carl and Frank (totalling 4 million) and there you have it. Your statement that teams don't write off buyouts when forcasting their payroll the following season is a moronic blanket-statement.


You seemingly have cornered the market on that all by yourself. I am still waiting for you to show me the math you've "done several times before." I am talking specific figures instead of saying. Please show me your payroll where the Sox, as constituted, will have a 76 million dollar payroll after signing Konerko. You said you would be happy too. It would also be nice if you could show how we could add Furcal (8 mil most likely) and Delgado (13.5 mil. Forget about Giles. He's vetoed trades here before and has been reported to be signing with the Cardinals.) after removing Uribe, Marte, Rowand and El Duque, without taking on any additional payroll from our trade partners other than Delgado (which is completely implausible, but let's assume that KW could work miracles) and still end up at around 85 million.

Might wanna try "reading"

Flight #24
11-01-2005, 03:38 PM
Ok, let's just go over some of the numbers:

Salaries coming off the books:

Shingo's salary (2.5 million)
Carl's salary ( 4 million) - 500k buyout
Frank's salary (8 million) - 3.5M buyout
Timo + Blum = ~ (1.55 million)
Ben Davis something like (1+ million)
Konerko's (8.75 million)
now, taking those losses of approximately 25.8 million dollars subtracted from the 2005 payroll that now will be redirected toward raises and FA's.
2.5+4-.5+8-3.5+1+8.75 = 21.8, not 25.8.




- So, hypothetically speaking, we resign Pauly to a 4/50 million dollar deal.
I think that's about 2 mil too low.


- Now we're at 13.5 million left.

- Say we use all that remaining cash on raises and long-term deals to Crede, AJ, Garland, Frank a short-term incentive-laden deal, etc...

As noted, raises to guys under contract total $11M before resigning Frank, Crede, Garland, AJ. $13.5 is way low.

Payroll needs to be 90+ to do your plan. Not saying it's impossible, but I doubt it happens.

maurice
11-01-2005, 03:40 PM
I know that this is implied, but I'm going to keep all references to Furcal and Giles in deeppink.

IMO, it is extremely likely that the 2006 lineup will include 7 of the following 8 players:
Pierzynski, Iguchi, Uribe, Crede, Podsednik, Rowand, Anderson, and Dye.

The other 2 slots will be filled by the 2 best sluggers KW can afford through trade or FA. One of them may or may not be Konerko. Giles would be lovely, but Furcal is extremely, EXTREMELY unlikely.

Deuce
11-01-2005, 03:42 PM
His contract is. they ain't picking up that 10 million dollar option, DUH.
Yeah, but that doesn't mean that he isn't going to get a new contract. No one expected the Sox to pick up his option, including Frank. DUH.

Deuce

gf2020
11-01-2005, 03:43 PM
LOL, ok... JR had approximately 5 million dollars allocated to KW to acquire someone at the deadline. You convince him to redirect that toward buyouts of Carl and Frank (totalling 4 million) and there you have it. Your statement that teams don't write off buyouts when forcasting their payroll the following season is a moronic blanket-statement.
Um because it's the truth? Are you saying teams don't figure buyouts into their payroll? Show me one team, short of the Yankees, that doesn't. And that The 5 mil would have brought our payroll to 81 this season. If we bring our payroll to 85 or 90, it's highly doubtful that there will be an additional 5 laying around at the deadline.

Might wanna try "reading"
I did. Again, the difference between 85 and 90 million is not insignifcant and you were the one quoting the 85 figure as feasible. And, as Flight just noted, you were wrong about the raises and maybe even with your math. I didn't even know you were figuring Frank in. If he hits the incentives, that's even more money to add on top of this 90 million dollar payroll you've put together, while assuming we take on no additional salary when we trade Rowand, Uribe, Marte and the Duke, which is very unlikely, especially in Hernandez's case.

whitesoxfan1986
11-01-2005, 03:54 PM
I say do what you can to get Howard from Philly w/o selling the farm.
this guy is gonna be great. this solves the lh bat problem. Would you trade Anderson/Sweeney for him? It makes me think.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 04:09 PM
2.5+4-.5+8-3.5+1+8.75 = 21.8, not 25.8.

No, writing off that 4 million dollars puts you exactly at my 25.8 number. Not out of the question for a one-time charge considering the money JR had allocated to KW that he didn't use at the deadline.

I've said that several times now as part of my plan. Charge it to the 2005 season, not the 2006 payroll.

Flight #24
11-01-2005, 04:38 PM
No, writing off that 4 million dollars puts you exactly at my 25.8 number. Not out of the question for a one-time charge considering the money JR had allocated to KW that he didn't use at the deadline.

I've said that several times now as part of my plan. Charge it to the 2005 season, not the 2006 payroll.

Aha, that was not clear to me before. OK, so then the only differences are that IMO you're coming in low on raises & arb awards/new contracts.

Still, I don't see them trying to replace Uribe with Furcal. Much more likely to just focus on getting a guy like Giles or trading for a big bat, adding a better relief arm, and resigning some of the SPs(Contreras is FA after '06, Garcia/Buehrle after '07, etc.)

Procol Harum
11-01-2005, 04:39 PM
Closer = Jenks. Back-up = Hermanson
Rowand replacement = Brian Anderson at $350k...

Use that money wisely. Rowand and Uribe both set to make 5 million or more in 2007.



While I love what Jenks has shown us in 2005, the vagaries of baseball history make me a little shaky in annointing him the closer for the long haul in '06. Hermanson as back-up, yes--but I still hafta wonder about how his back is gonna respond and heal. I think this is one area where a little overkill would make good sense.

gf2020
11-01-2005, 04:46 PM
No, writing off that 4 million dollars puts you exactly at my 25.8 number. Not out of the question for a one-time charge considering the money JR had allocated to KW that he didn't use at the deadline.

I've said that several times now as part of my plan. Charge it to the 2005 season, not the 2006 payroll.
See, that's not FEASIBLE as you keep mentioning. That's not what the team is doing. And still, you are spending the same amount of money this year no matter how you classify it.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 04:51 PM
See, that's not FEASIBLE as you keep mentioning. That's not what the team is doing or what any teams do in buyout situations. And still, you are spending the same amount of money this year no matter how you classify it.There is good logic behind it. A one-time buyout is just that - one time. There's no future committment. You don't have to worry about how it's going to affect your team's ability to sign players in future years. OTOH, $2M a year on a 5 year contract is a $10M committment, and it has an effect on payroll decisions in each of those 5 years.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 04:54 PM
See, that's not FEASIBLE as you keep mentioning. That's not what the team is doing. And still, you are spending the same amount of money this year no matter how you classify it.

Does that buyout not occur in 2005?

Yes it does. Move on, that money does not effect payroll in 2006 or beyond. Corporations, businesses, etc take one-time write-offs everyday. This is not some alien concept.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 04:54 PM
Aha, that was not clear to me before. OK, so then the only differences are that IMO you're coming in low on raises & arb awards/new contracts.

Also consider that NY picked up half of Contreras' contract in the deal, meaning the Sox actually paid him 3.5 million this year and 4.0 next.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 05:01 PM
Also consider that NY picked up half of Contreras' contract in the deal, meaning the Sox actually paid him 3.5 million this year and 4.0 next.The Sox are paying $6M per year of Contreras' contract. NY is paying everything over that.

gf2020
11-01-2005, 05:04 PM
Does that buyout not occur in 2005?

Yes it does. Move on, that money does not effect payroll in 2006 or beyond. Corporations, businesses, etc take one-time write-offs everyday. This is not some alien concept.
It is to baseball. Show me one team that has done it in baseball. Show me a team that doesn't count buyouts as payroll.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 05:06 PM
Here are the 20 key players and their 2006 salaries the Sox are responsible for (Contreras' deal was half paid by the Yanks). We've got 12 arms and short a few bench players (most make less than 1M, closer to the minimum), but once you fill in the salaries of Garland, Crede, Konerko and AJ, you'll have the majority of the 2006 payroll. (salaries in Millions)

Starters
Contreras 5.000 - Yankees paid 3M/year of his deal (7M and 8M in overall salary in 05 and 06
Buehrle 7.750
Garcia 9.000
Garland ???? - Arb eligible (made 3.14 in 2005)
McCarthy 0.330

Bullpen
Jenks 0.330
Hermanson 3.000
Politte 1.200
Vizcaino 1.300 - 2006 salary unknown, estimated about the same, 1.3M
Marte 2.250
Cotts 0.335
El Duque 5.000 - Based on incentives escalating his contract

IF
Crede ???? - Arb eligible (made 400k in 2005)
Uribe 3.150
Iguchi 2.400
Konerko ????
AJ ???? - Arb eligible (made 2.5M including bonuses in 2005)

OF
Pods 1.975
Rowand 3.250
Dye 5.000

TOTALS 51.270

You add structured deals that slowly escalate and you're looking at 2006 salaries I'll guestimate as follows:

Konerko = 12M in 2006 (maybe 13-13.5-14 in years 2-3-4?)
Garland = 5M in 2006 (not all that dissimilar from Buehrle's contract)
Crede = 1.25M in 2006 (about standard when bumping from a minimum salary)
AJ = 4.25M in 2006

that puts us at about 22.5 for those 4 players and 73.77M overall not including 5 bench players such as Anderson, Ozuna, Blum, Widger, and another OF'er, which should total around 4 million for all of them together, putting us at 77.77M for the same team we had this year, in essense (minus Carl/Frank/Timo)...


Therefore, IMO, you can add Furcal and a #3 hitter assuming they make an effective salary of ~10 million/year each, by trading Marte-El Duque-Rowand-Uribe (around 13 million total savings, although you're short a lefty specialist now assuming Cotts is a set-up man)

That puts us smack-dab around 85-87 million in payroll yet gives us an All-Star lineup as I've shown before in addition to our pitching.

Canadian_SoxFan
11-01-2005, 05:22 PM
If the White Sox do get rid of Rowand, it will be a big mistake. IMO, NEXT YEAR Anderson will be a HUGE downgrade from Rowand. It was only a year ago he hit over .300 and led the team in that category. He will work on his swing in the winter and he wil revert back to his old form and will be an All-Starnext year. Also, Uribe has shown us a lot this season, we do not need Furcal who IMO is a downgrade from Uribe in the field.

knocko94
11-01-2005, 05:22 PM
I think the Yanks included $6 million total in the deal, 3 per year. So Jose's listed salary needs a bump up to $5 mil for nest year.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 05:30 PM
If the White Sox do get rid of Rowand, it will be a big mistake. IMO, NEXT YEAR Anderson will be a HUGE downgrade from Rowand. It was only a year ago he hit over .300 and led the team in that category. He will work on his swing in the winter and he wil revert back to his old form and will be an All-Starnext year. Also, Uribe has shown us a lot this season, we do not need Furcal who IMO is a downgrade from Uribe in the field.

:cleo

What else is gonna happen... read the stars for me...

Rowand's career numbers indicate an expected .750-.800 OPS. 2004 was a SEVERE outlier from the reast of his career performance. Expecting him to return to anything close to that is fool's gold to say the least.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 05:33 PM
I think the Yanks included $6 million total in the deal, 3 per year. So Jose's listed salary needs a bump up to $5 mil for nest year.

That appears to be correct, I'll go back and edit it to reflect that.

Canadian_SoxFan
11-01-2005, 05:34 PM
:cleo

What else is gonna happen... read the stars for me...

Rowand's career numbers indicate an expected .750-.800 OPS. 2004 was a SEVERE outlier from the reast of his career performance. Expecting him to return to anything close to that is fool's gold to say the least. Yes, so pretty much what you are saying is that if a YOUNG player, Rowand isonly 28 has a great year followed by a sub-par year, that it MUST be a fluke. He tried to put to much pressure on himself. And if you remember for most of the season he hit 5th. He tried to hit for power, which is not his game. He is a .300 hitter that will hit 20 home runs a year batting 6th.

hold2dibber
11-01-2005, 05:40 PM
Yes, so pretty much what you are saying is that if a YOUNG player, Rowand isonly 28 has a great year followed by a sub-par year, that it MUST be a fluke. He tried to put to much pressure on himself. And if you remember for most of the season he hit 5th. He tried to hit for power, which is not his game. He is a .300 hitter that will hit 20 home runs a year batting 6th.

I believe he's had one .300 plus year in his entire professional career. Of course it's possible that he could return to .300 in the future, but it seems much more likely, in light of what he's done throughout his minor league and major league career, that he won't return to the .300 range.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 05:46 PM
Here are the 20 key players and their 2006 salaries the Sox are responsible for (Contreras' deal was half paid by the Yanks). We've got 12 arms and short a few bench players (most make less than 1M, closer to the minimum), but once you fill in the salaries of Garland, Crede, Konerko and AJ, you'll have the majority of the 2006 payroll. (salaries in Millions)

Starters
Contreras 5.000 - Yankees paid 3M/year of his deal (7M and 8M in overall salary in 05 and 06
Buehrle 7.750
Garcia 9.000
Garland ???? - Arb eligible (made 3.14 in 2005)
McCarthy 0.330

Bullpen
Jenks 0.330
Hermanson 3.000
Politte 1.200
Vizcaino 1.300 - 2006 salary unknown, estimated about the same, 1.3M
Marte 2.250
Cotts 0.335
El Duque 5.000 - Based on incentives escalating his contract

IF
Crede ???? - Arb eligible (made 400k in 2005)
Uribe 3.150
Iguchi 2.400
Konerko ????
AJ ???? - Arb eligible (made 2.5M including bonuses in 2005)

OF
Pods 1.975
Rowand 3.250
Dye 5.000

TOTALS 51.270

You add structured deals that slowly escalate and you're looking at 2006 salaries I'll guestimate as follows:

Konerko = 12M in 2006 (maybe 13-13.5-14 in years 2-3-4?)
Garland = 5M in 2006 (not all that dissimilar from Buehrle's contract)
Crede = 1.25M in 2006 (about standard when bumping from a minimum salary)
AJ = 4.25M in 2006

that puts us at about 22.5 for those 4 players and 73.77M overall not including 5 bench players such as Anderson, Ozuna, Blum, Widger, and another OF'er, which should total around 4 million for all of them together, putting us at 77.77M for the same team we had this year, in essense (minus Carl/Frank/Timo)...


Therefore, IMO, you can add Furcal and a #3 hitter assuming they make an effective salary of ~10 million/year each, by trading Marte-El Duque-Rowand-Uribe (around 13 million total savings, although you're short a lefty specialist now assuming Cotts is a set-up man)

That puts us smack-dab around 85-87 million in payroll yet gives us an All-Star lineup as I've shown before in addition to our pitching.Looking at these numbers, I think you're a little short here and a little there, but it adds up. The Sox are paying Contreras $6M, not $4M. I also think you're being too conservative on raises for Konerko, Crede, Garland and Pierzynski. I'd estimate another $1-2M. Also, you've only got 20 players. Even if the other 5 all make the minumum, that's $1.5M more, and I don't think you want a bench where everybody is making the minimum. Realistically, it's probably going to be more like $3M for those bench players. Altogether, I'd add $5-7M to your figures, putting you in the low- to mid-80's for sure. Also, you're trading 4 players to get 2, so you need 2 more bench players. The lineup you've proposed is going to come in over $90M. I just don't see that big of an increase.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Yes, so pretty much what you are saying is that if a YOUNG player, Rowand isonly 28 has a great year followed by a sub-par year, that it MUST be a fluke. He tried to put to much pressure on himself. And if you remember for most of the season he hit 5th. He tried to hit for power, which is not his game. He is a .300 hitter that will hit 20 home runs a year batting 6th.

http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/aaron-rowand.shtml

Which of those years is the outlier? It helps to know what you're talking about before making blind predictions about player performances.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 05:49 PM
I believe he's had one .300 plus year in his entire professional career. Of course it's possible that he could return to .300 in the future, but it seems much more likely, in light of what he's done throughout his minor league and major league career, that he won't return to the .300 range.At the same time, 2005 was his worst BA year since 2002 (his first full year), and is below his career average. I'd project him at least .290 into the future, with an occasional .300+ year.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 05:53 PM
Looking at these numbers, I think you're a little short here and a little there, but it adds up. The Sox are paying Contreras $6M, not $4M. I also think you're being too conservative on raises for Konerko, Crede, Garland and Pierzynski. I'd estimate another $1-2M. Also, you've only got 20 players. Even if the other 5 all make the minumum, that's $1.5M more, and I don't think you want a bench where everybody is making the minimum. Realistically, it's probably going to be more like $3M for those bench players. Altogether, I'd add $5-7M to your figures, putting you in the low- to mid-80's for sure. Also, you're trading 4 players to get 2, so you need 2 more bench players. The lineup you've proposed is going to come in over $90M. I just don't see that big of an increase.

I included 4 million for bench players. I adjusted it to 5 million for Contreras unless you have a link, because everything I can find now indicates the Yanks picked up 3M per year on his deal.

Where am I short a little here and there? I've taken these numbers straight from their contracts. The only ones I've estimates is on Vizcaino, Cotts, Jenks, and McCarthy, the latter 3 all making the minimum based on performance time and Vizcaino not earning a heftier salary based on performance and not being arbitration eligible.

On Konerko, Crede, Garland and AJ it is all based on a slightly escalating salary. You're going to tell me that Garland and AJ will more than double their 2005 salary and Crede is going to more than triple it? Crede was great in the playoffs and clutch, but he still hit around only .250. I thought I was being relatively conservative overestimating on those yet still being realistic.

Actually, in the bottom part of my post, which you apparently chose not to read, I basically addressed all of your criticisms in detail.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 05:55 PM
At the same time, 2005 was his worst BA year since 2002 (his first full year), and is below his career average. I'd project him at least .290 into the future, with an occasional .300+ year.

And he basically was a .750-.800 OPS player in every year but 2004. He strikes out a lot yet rarely walks. He isn't a #1 or #2 hitter, and he's not a middle-of-the-order hitter.

He is grossly overvalued by most Sox fans and those expecting him to hit "at least .290 into the future" are partaking in the Sox Kool-Aid.

Canadian_SoxFan
11-01-2005, 05:57 PM
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/R/aaron-rowand.shtml

Which of those years is the outlier? It helps to know what you're talking about before making blind predictions about player performances. His first few years should not count againast him seeing as he was getting his feet wet in the MLB. His 2004 numbers were not a fluke, and only time will tell, but don't be suprised when I was right.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 06:04 PM
And he basically was a .750-.800 OPS player in every year but 2004. He strikes out a lot yet rarely walks. He isn't a #1 or #2 hitter, and he's not a middle-of-the-order hitter.

He is grossly overvalued by most Sox fans and those expecting him to hit "at least .290 into the future" are partaking in the Sox Kool-Aid.His average over the last three years is .288. Unless you want to quibble over 2 pts, he's already doing it.

Canadian_SoxFan
11-01-2005, 06:10 PM
His average over the last three years is .288. Unless you want to quibble over 2 pts, he's already doing it. Finally another Rowand supporter. His problem this year was he had too many at-bats and got tired. If they bring in Anderson who can take around 75 at-bats away from Rowand, which will give Rowand around 500 on the year, he will hit close to .300, hit at least 20 home runs, and drive in 75.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 06:23 PM
I included 4 million for bench players. I adjusted it to 5 million for Contreras unless you have a link, because everything I can find now indicates the Yanks picked up 3M per year on his deal.

Where am I short a little here and there? I've taken these numbers straight from their contracts. The only ones I've estimates is on Vizcaino, Cotts, Jenks, and McCarthy, the latter 3 all making the minimum based on performance time and Vizcaino not earning a heftier salary based on performance and not being arbitration eligible.

On Konerko, Crede, Garland and AJ it is all based on a slightly escalating salary. You're going to tell me that Garland and AJ will more than double their 2005 salary and Crede is going to more than triple it? Crede was great in the playoffs and clutch, but he still hit around only .250. I thought I was being relatively conservative overestimating on those yet still being realistic.

Actually, in the bottom part of my post, which you apparently chose not to read, I basically addressed all of your criticisms in detail.Here's the best link (http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/paper410/news/2004/08/02/Sports/Kim-Breaking.Down.The.Best.And.Worst.Of.The.Deadline.T rades-696984.shtml) I could find in a short time. IIRC, Contreras was due $7M in 2005 and $9M in 2006. The $4M was to make both years $6M.
For Chicago, the concept of this trade was simple: get something for Loaiza. With the Mexican native to become a free agent at the end of the season, the White Sox wanted something to show for the 20-game winner come November. They got erratic starter Jose Contreras along with $4 million.
As for the others, I think you're too low for Konerko. I expect closer to $13M. I guess it could be $12M if they back-loaded the contract. AJ and Crede may also be a bit low - maybe a million between them.

Ol' No. 2
11-01-2005, 06:29 PM
Finally another Rowand supporter. His problem this year was he had too many at-bats and got tired. If they bring in Anderson who can take around 75 at-bats away from Rowand, which will give Rowand around 500 on the year, he will hit close to .300, hit at least 20 home runs, and drive in 75.He had more AB in 2004. I don't think being tired had anything to do with it. Hitting at the top of the order in 2004 he just got better pitches to hit. In a good year he may hit over .300, but .290 or so is probably his level. Not All-Star numbers, but not chopped liver, either when you factor in above-average defense.

Optipessimism
11-01-2005, 07:14 PM
While it would be great to see the entire team come back, I doubt it will happen. A couple of things I wanted to post about other comments in this thread:

Blum: A switch hitter who provides average to above average defense at four infield positions and two outfield positions. Why not resign this guy? He won't make much, and if he doesn't mind playing in Chicago get it done.

Frank/Everett: I feel sorry for KW here because he is going to have to do a couple of things I don't think he wants to do here. First, he is probably going to buyout Frank's contract and negotiate a smaller deal laced with incentives. Then he is going to have to try and renogiate a smaller contract with Carl without being able to tell him with confidence that he will receive regular playing time. IMO, this makes Carl's return unlikely, almost as unlikely as a full season of a healthy Frank Thomas. Personally I think KW would rather let both Frank and Carl go and pick up someone else via FA or trade just so he can feel confident about the situation, but I think he is going to be handcuffed by the possibility of a negative fan reaction to Frank's departure as well as JR's willingness to watch his 500th HR in a Sox uniform. I hope for the sake of the team KW goes whatever he thinks is best and doesn't let anything else bother him.

Garland/Contreras/Pierzynski/Iguchi: lock these guys up now. Contreras and to a lesser extent Garland may be cheaper now than they would be after a 2006 season because there are still questions surrounding their legitimacy, however I think both have turned the corner for good. Iguchi has a year left but he will demand mega bucks if we let him go to FA afterwards, so let's get him locked up now too. Same goes for AJ. Even if it means perhaps letting Paulie walk and weakening the offense for the 2006 season, I'd rather have those four through 2007-2008 than Paulie.

Banix12
11-01-2005, 07:32 PM
While it would be great to see the entire team come back, I doubt it will happen. A couple of things I wanted to post about other comments in this thread:

Blum: A switch hitter who provides average to above average defense at four infield positions and two outfield positions. Why not resign this guy? He won't make much, and if he doesn't mind playing in Chicago get it done.

Frank/Everett: I feel sorry for KW here because he is going to have to do a couple of things I don't think he wants to do here. First, he is probably going to buyout Frank's contract and negotiate a smaller deal laced with incentives. Then he is going to have to try and renogiate a smaller contract with Carl without being able to tell him with confidence that he will receive regular playing time. IMO, this makes Carl's return unlikely, almost as unlikely as a full season of a healthy Frank Thomas. Personally I think KW would rather let both Frank and Carl go and pick up someone else via FA or trade just so he can feel confident about the situation, but I think he is going to be handcuffed by the possibility of a negative fan reaction to Frank's departure as well as JR's willingness to watch his 500th HR in a Sox uniform. I hope for the sake of the team KW goes whatever he thinks is best and doesn't let anything else bother him.

Garland/Contreras/Pierzynski/Iguchi: lock these guys up now. Contreras and to a lesser extent Garland may be cheaper now than they would be after a 2006 season because there are still questions surrounding their legitimacy, however I think both have turned the corner for good. Iguchi has a year left but he will demand mega bucks if we let him go to FA afterwards, so let's get him locked up now too. Same goes for AJ. Even if it means perhaps letting Paulie walk and weakening the offense for the 2006 season, I'd rather have those four through 2007-2008 than Paulie.

I'm fairly sure Blum's first choice is to try to land on one of the southern california teams, preferably San Diego again. If he gets blown off by them then he might consider coming back here.

I agree with you on Frank and Carl. Can't trust Frank to stay healthy. Carl probably doesn't want to sign for a reduced rate or for a 1 year deal and would rather go to some losing team, just like he did the first time the sox acquired him. Weak free agent market though might force the sox to sign Frank to an incentive deal if only because of the weak crop of hitters on the market. Brian Giles looks to be the lone #3 hitter on the market, though I haven't really checked out the list thoroughly.

Lock up as many players early as possible. Not worried about contreras and to a lesser extent Iguchi but AJ and Garland are key

kevin57
11-01-2005, 08:20 PM
Yes, so pretty much what you are saying is that if a YOUNG player, Rowand isonly 28 has a great year followed by a sub-par year, that it MUST be a fluke. He tried to put to much pressure on himself. And if you remember for most of the season he hit 5th. He tried to hit for power, which is not his game. He is a .300 hitter that will hit 20 home runs a year batting 6th.

I think, I hope Rowand will have a better year at the plate next year, but he has GOT to work on what he swings at. Pitchers really figured out what pitch(es) he just can't lay off on and he'll get a steady diet of the same until he handles those better.

I would normally say, "Trade him." but that ol' chemistry can't be forgotten. AJ, Crede, and Rowand bonded tremendously, and without knowing all the dynamics, I think they had their ways of motivating and smoothing each other out. I'd be a little hesitant to mess with that.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 11:41 PM
Finally another Rowand supporter. His problem this year was he had too many at-bats and got tired. If they bring in Anderson who can take around 75 at-bats away from Rowand, which will give Rowand around 500 on the year, he will hit close to .300, hit at least 20 home runs, and drive in 75.

:bong:

Come on, it doesn't work like that. Rowand is always in great shape... he wasn't worn down, he didn't adjust to the way pitchers threw him all year. He doesn't take walks, he doesn't work counts...

This isn't rocket science. You want to discount all the bad years and count one good year, yet then again throw out the most recent sample that is a bad year... This is the most idiotic thing I may have ever read in terms of arguing performance statistically.

Randar68
11-01-2005, 11:43 PM
I'm fairly sure Blum's first choice is to try to land on one of the southern california teams, preferably San Diego again. If he gets blown off by them then he might consider coming back here.

Brian Giles looks to be the lone #3 hitter on the market, though I haven't really checked out the list thoroughly.

Blum has recently stated his preference is to stay with the Sox.

Giles is the only #3 hitter on the FA market but several are expected to be available in the trade market for little more than salary relief.

RowanDye
11-02-2005, 12:08 AM
I think we need some tweaking, but a large-scale overhaul to a championship team?? We could make a few upgrades, but Rowand and (to a somewhat lesser extent) Uribe are core players that KW will be very reluctant to trade.


Have some of you been talking with Rob Neyer:
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=neyer_rob&id=2206841


Rowand had a down year offensively. I'm not sure if he'll ever be "clutch", but with Anderson platooning next year he will be more rested and hopefully regain some power at the plate. We need to figure out what the deal is with Marte, probably a trade. Then we'd need a lefty replacement. I'd resign Konerko almost at all costs and just hope Frank Thomas returns to glory or some other bat becomes available.

voodoochile
11-02-2005, 12:40 AM
Here's the best link (http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/paper410/news/2004/08/02/Sports/Kim-Breaking.Down.The.Best.And.Worst.Of.The.Deadline.T rades-696984.shtml) I could find in a short time. IIRC, Contreras was due $7M in 2005 and $9M in 2006. The $4M was to make both years $6M.

As for the others, I think you're too low for Konerko. I expect closer to $13M. I guess it could be $12M if they back-loaded the contract. AJ and Crede may also be a bit low - maybe a million between them.

This is an excellent point. It will depend on how the Sox look at it. Like it or not, they owe Contreras 9M this coming season. Now if that $4M is already spent (like the $5M buyout that is being discussed for Frank and Carl) then the Sox will have Contreras on the books at $9M and nothing will change that fact. The $4M came as a lump sum to the Sox, not as installments to Contreras after all.

You can't have it both ways. Write off Frank's money for 2005 and yet claim money paid in 2004 for Contreras is still available, IMO. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul and it doesn't work like that.

Now I don't know how the Sox will view those payments. I also don't know how much the payroll will increase. That will depend a LOT on how many Season Tickets they sell these next few weeks and on how much extra revenue they garnered from the extra .5M fans they drew this season over last and the additional playoff revenue.

JR has regularly taken the profit from the previous season and plowed it back into payroll the following season for the past several years. If the profit this year is $15M (and I expect it is MUCH higer) the Sox could easily be in the $90M payroll range next season and still have money to spend.

It's actually a pretty decent system. This year I make money and next year I expect to make that much again, so I build the team based on expected revenue. JR and his boyz make money this year and make more next year IF the team repeats its success or at least makes a solid run at it

I don't know how the Sox will view these questions about payroll. I also don't know how much they will plow into the team or how hard they will fight to keep PK when the bidding gets going and trust me, the Yankees are going to make a big push for PK this off-season. Will the Sox go to $15M? I can see the Yankees going there no problem. I also can see the Yankees ponying up a 5 year offer and I sincerly doubt the Sox will.

Time will tell...

Deuce
11-02-2005, 07:04 AM
This isn't rocket science. You want to discount all the bad years and count one good year...

*cough*Crede*cough*

*cough*GIDPK*cough*

Sorry, I had to clear my throught.

Deuce

balke
11-02-2005, 08:12 AM
I wanna see a season of


Buehrle
Contreras
Garland
Garcia
Mccarthy

I think the Sox will have enough revenue to pay Paulie whatever he wants, and even keep Marte if they want. It just will probably come down to who the Sox have faith in next year. I like having Everett on the team for the postseason, but during the year it would be nice to see what Anderson can do for the team. It'll be an exciting year, maybe the Sox can afford to splurge for another big free agent after Paulie. I doubt it, but we'll see.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 08:56 AM
This is an excellent point. It will depend on how the Sox look at it. Like it or not, they owe Contreras 9M this coming season. Now if that $4M is already spent (like the $5M buyout that is being discussed for Frank and Carl) then the Sox will have Contreras on the books at $9M and nothing will change that fact. The $4M came as a lump sum to the Sox, not as installments to Contreras after all.

You can't have it both ways. Write off Frank's money for 2005 and yet claim money paid in 2004 for Contreras is still available, IMO. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul and it doesn't work like that.

Now I don't know how the Sox will view those payments. I also don't know how much the payroll will increase. That will depend a LOT on how many Season Tickets they sell these next few weeks and on how much extra revenue they garnered from the extra .5M fans they drew this season over last and the additional playoff revenue.

JR has regularly taken the profit from the previous season and plowed it back into payroll the following season for the past several years. If the profit this year is $15M (and I expect it is MUCH higer) the Sox could easily be in the $90M payroll range next season and still have money to spend.

It's actually a pretty decent system. This year I make money and next year I expect to make that much again, so I build the team based on expected revenue. JR and his boyz make money this year and make more next year IF the team repeats its success or at least makes a solid run at it


I've seen nothing that says it was lump-sum. Many times teams don't do lump-sum payments, they defer the payments and they actually write the check to said player from their payroll. If the contract is for more than the current year, it often times works like this.


I don't know how the Sox will view these questions about payroll. I also don't know how much they will plow into the team or how hard they will fight to keep PK when the bidding gets going and trust me, the Yankees are going to make a big push for PK this off-season. Will the Sox go to $15M? I can see the Yankees going there no problem. I also can see the Yankees ponying up a 5 year offer and I sincerly doubt the Sox will.

Time will tell...

If the Sox go past about 13 or 14 million average per/season they're making a big mistake. Konerko's home/road splits are pretty bad, have been since they reconfigured the Cell. He plays 1st base, etc etc etc...

Would you rather have Konerko or would you rather have Giles AND Furcal???

I don't know which of the FA's are feasible targets at this point, although I do know Ozzie loves Furcal (remember he spent some time with Atlanta). Giles would be ideal at # in the order, but they'd still be looking for 1B/DH should they make those moves, and 1B/DH are the most impact AND available commodities in this year's high-stakes trade market.

Again, like you said, there's no telling how they plan to distribute increased payroll, but I also likes someone else's point about wanting to see a full year of:

2nd half Contreras
Buehrle
Garcia
Garland
McCarthy

We should still win the division next year on the backs of those 5, but I still would REALLY like to see us improve our middle-of-the-order.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 09:30 AM
This is an excellent point. It will depend on how the Sox look at it. Like it or not, they owe Contreras 9M this coming season. Now if that $4M is already spent (like the $5M buyout that is being discussed for Frank and Carl) then the Sox will have Contreras on the books at $9M and nothing will change that fact. The $4M came as a lump sum to the Sox, not as installments to Contreras after all.

You can't have it both ways. Write off Frank's money for 2005 and yet claim money paid in 2004 for Contreras is still available, IMO. It's robbing Peter to pay Paul and it doesn't work like that.

Now I don't know how the Sox will view those payments. I also don't know how much the payroll will increase. That will depend a LOT on how many Season Tickets they sell these next few weeks and on how much extra revenue they garnered from the extra .5M fans they drew this season over last and the additional playoff revenue.

JR has regularly taken the profit from the previous season and plowed it back into payroll the following season for the past several years. If the profit this year is $15M (and I expect it is MUCH higer) the Sox could easily be in the $90M payroll range next season and still have money to spend.

It's actually a pretty decent system. This year I make money and next year I expect to make that much again, so I build the team based on expected revenue. JR and his boyz make money this year and make more next year IF the team repeats its success or at least makes a solid run at it

I don't know how the Sox will view these questions about payroll. I also don't know how much they will plow into the team or how hard they will fight to keep PK when the bidding gets going and trust me, the Yankees are going to make a big push for PK this off-season. Will the Sox go to $15M? I can see the Yankees going there no problem. I also can see the Yankees ponying up a 5 year offer and I sincerly doubt the Sox will.

Time will tell...One thing to consider, though. 2005 was an exceptional year in terms of profits. Ploughing them into the team for next year is fine. But player contracts are multi-year deals, and you can't necessarily count on those same revenues in coming years. Of course we all hope it's going to be a recurring thing, but to count on those in budgeting would be unwise.

TomBradley72
11-02-2005, 09:35 AM
I think the #1 priority to holding on to all of the major league talent from this year to provide maximum depth/reinforcements from Charlotte (AAA) and Birmingham (AA) either for call ups or trade bait. Why? We stayed relatively healthy this year (like most championship teams)....but how many times do you get two consecutive years of few injuries? Not often.

Assuming the odds catch up with us I could see: Frank Thomas (foot), Joe Crede (back), El Duque (shoulder), Hermanson (back), Dye (age/history) all having significant DL time in 2006....we'll need the depth and reinforcements to weather the storm. This will be the key to repeating.

voodoochile
11-02-2005, 09:39 AM
I've seen nothing that says it was lump-sum. Many times teams don't do lump-sum payments, they defer the payments and they actually write the check to said player from their payroll. If the contract is for more than the current year, it often times works like this.




If the Sox go past about 13 or 14 million average per/season they're making a big mistake. Konerko's home/road splits are pretty bad, have been since they reconfigured the Cell. He plays 1st base, etc etc etc...

Would you rather have Konerko or would you rather have Giles AND Furcal???

I don't know which of the FA's are feasible targets at this point, although I do know Ozzie loves Furcal (remember he spent some time with Atlanta). Giles would be ideal at # in the order, but they'd still be looking for 1B/DH should they make those moves, and 1B/DH are the most impact AND available commodities in this year's high-stakes trade market.

Again, like you said, there's no telling how they plan to distribute increased payroll, but I also likes someone else's point about wanting to see a full year of:

2nd half Contreras
Buehrle
Garcia
Garland
McCarthy

We should still win the division next year on the backs of those 5, but I still would REALLY like to see us improve our middle-of-the-order.

Oh I agree, about PK and the starting pitching. I've been saying since a while back that before we worry about PK we need to worry about finding a genuine #3 hitter. Because we cannot count on Frank coming back full strength or staying healthy if he does. (side question: If the Sox buy out Frank does that preclude them from negotiating with him? That may factor into their decision depending on how badly JR wants to keep the big guy around.)

I did think I read somewhere sometime that the payment for Contreras was done as a lump sum, but I cannot recall where that was nor if the source I got it from was a reliable one.

To reply to Ol No. 2 who posted while I was replying, I also agree with your statement, but I firmly believe a $15M bump in profit can be maintained. I would be the profit level probably approached $30M this season when you factor in the merchandise sold for World Series gear. Heck, WSI spent nearly that much by itself based on some of the posts I've seen.

The Sox are going to be a hot draw for at least the next few years and this coming season like Randar said, they will be pennant contenders strictly based on their starting pitching. The sole part of this team that needs to be upgraded is the center of the order. Where those guys play will depend on who they sign or trade for. Thus they should do fine from a revenue perspective this coming season and trust me. The skyboxes will be much fuller next year too because clients are going to want to see the World Champion White Sox and businesses will respond. In addition, I think 2.7-2.9M fans is a reasonable expectation next year because ST packages are going to jump like crazy. Thus the revenue is going to be there to support a $90M payroll even before they factor in additional playoff revenue again.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 09:41 AM
Come on, it doesn't work like that. Rowand is always in great shape... he wasn't worn down, he didn't adjust to the way pitchers threw him all year. He doesn't take walks, he doesn't work counts...

This isn't rocket science. You want to discount all the bad years and count one good year, yet then again throw out the most recent sample that is a bad year... This is the most idiotic thing I may have ever read in terms of arguing performance statistically.But you're doing essentially the same thing, Randar. You want to throw out 2004 as an outlier and assume 2005 is the norm. Taking the most recent 3 years, he's a .288 hitter with an OPS around .800. I haven't heard anyone claim he's going to be a career .300+ hitter. But with solid defense, those numbers are not exactly chopped liver, and with normal variations, he'll probably have a few .300+ years.

I agree with you on his weaknesses. He's not very good at working the count in his favor and winds up getting himself out most of the time. But that's not inbred - it's a skill that can be learned. He's still just 28. He's got time.

Flight #24
11-02-2005, 10:09 AM
One thing to consider, though. 2005 was an exceptional year in terms of profits. Ploughing them into the team for next year is fine. But player contracts are multi-year deals, and you can't necessarily count on those same revenues in coming years. Of course we all hope it's going to be a recurring thing, but to count on those in budgeting would be unwise.

IMO you count the attendance bump from '04-05 and the anticipated one for '06 as fairly repeatable. You don't count the playoff revenues, but you figure that if you can keep things together or add to it (and one or both is 100% possible), then you can maintain the attendance.

1.9 in 2004 goes to 2.3 in 2005 goes to 2.7 in 2006? That doesn't seem like a stretch to me, and pushing 750k-1M in total attendance increase, should mean a lot more than $10M in revenues. I'd guess it's more like $20M. And being conservative, I'd guess that means a $15M payroll bump in '06 to give them some room to make further additions or to cover raises beyond '06.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 10:20 AM
But you're doing essentially the same thing, Randar. You want to throw out 2004 as an outlier and assume 2005 is the norm. Taking the most recent 3 years, he's a .288 hitter with an OPS around .800. I haven't heard anyone claim he's going to be a career .300+ hitter. But with solid defense, those numbers are not exactly chopped liver, and with normal variations, he'll probably have a few .300+ years.

I agree with you on his weaknesses. He's not very good at working the count in his favor and winds up getting himself out most of the time. But that's not inbred - it's a skill that can be learned. He's still just 28. He's got time.

People in this very thread have posted expectations of him to return to 2004 production. It is a moronic assessment. Period.

.290? Sure, he could realistically do that again, but it will be without the power he showed in 2004. He plays in one the the VERY best hitters parks in baseball yet he had a <.750 OPS season.

The best you could realistically project IMO, is a .280-15-80 year with an OPS around between .750 and .800. Now, unless you're talking about a leadoff hitter or #2 hitter that steals 30-40 bags a year, those average and OPS numbers are extremely common and easily replaced. Rowand is neither of those things. Anderson may not be much better, but he is also the future. You can afford to break one guy like Anderson in and still be a contender. You want to wait until 2007 and be breaking in 2 or 3 new guys all at once?

Rowand made a name for himself with his defense in NY this year, he was on a WS team, he has SOME value, trade him now. You have 2 CF'ers in the wings and 2 other OF'ers 12-18 months away. You have critical mass. Make a move to better the team elsewhere while trading little, if anything, at that position for 2006.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 10:20 AM
IMO you count the attendance bump from '04-05 and the anticipated one for '06 as fairly repeatable. You don't count the playoff revenues, but you figure that if you can keep things together or add to it (and one or both is 100% possible), then you can maintain the attendance.

1.9 in 2004 goes to 2.3 in 2005 goes to 2.7 in 2006? That doesn't seem like a stretch to me, and pushing 750k-1M in total attendance increase, should mean a lot more than $10M in revenues. I'd guess it's more like $20M. And being conservative, I'd guess that means a $15M payroll bump in '06 to give them some room to make further additions or to cover raises beyond '06.I think there's a middle ground here. You could utilize playoff revenues if you're anticipating trading for someone with one year left on his contract. That's essentially what they did acquiring David Wells in 2001. What you don't want to do is sign someone to a multi-year deal counting on those revenues to pay for it. Historically, what the Sox have done is count on the previous year's attendance for the coming year's budget. If they get an increase, they use that extra revenue for mid-season acquisitions. KW got excoriated for saying that a year ago in his famous "if the fans come out we'll increase payroll" speech, but it's a perfectly reasonable approach.

Also, increased revenues don't all go to payroll. There are lots of other costs associated with running a team. Over the last couple of years I believe a bit more than half of the increased revenues have gone to player payroll. As attendance increases, they also have to pay the ISFA more, and they're getting significantly less in radio broadcast rights with the new deal with WSCR. I'd anticipate maybe at most a $10M bump from 2005, putting them in the low 80's. More than that I think is definately deep pink territory.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 10:22 AM
(side question: If the Sox buy out Frank does that preclude them from negotiating with him? That may factor into their decision depending on how badly JR wants to keep the big guy around.)


Good post and no, it doesn't preclude the Sox from negotiating a new contract if they decline the team option on him. He wants to stay and the Sox brass wants him back, if he's reasonably healthy, they'll find a way to do it in an incentive-laden deal, IMO.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 10:23 AM
I think there's a middle ground here. You could utilize playoff revenues if you're anticipating trading for someone with one year left on his contract. That's essentially what they did acquiring David Wells in 2001. What you don't want to do is sign someone to a multi-year deal counting on those revenues to pay for it. Historically, what the Sox have done is count on the previous year's attendance for the coming year's budget. If they get an increase, they use that extra revenue for mid-season acquisitions. KW got excoriated for saying that a year ago in his famous "if the fans come out we'll increase payroll" speech, but it's a perfectly reasonable approach.

Also, increased revenues don't all go to payroll. There are lots of other costs associated with running a team. Over the last couple of years I believe a bit more than half of the increased revenues have gone to player payroll. As attendance increases, they also have to pay the ISFA more, and they're getting significantly less in radio broadcast rights with the new deal with WSCR. I'd anticipate maybe at most a $10M bump from 2005, putting them in the low 80's. More than that I think is definately deep pink territory.

There is no problem signing guys to big multi-year deals as long as you have other significant multiyear deals expiring over the next 2-3 seasons as the Sox do.

Everyone likes to tout the radio deal, but the Sox got a HUGE bump in TV revenue from being a partnet with Comcast Sports Net. You might want to mention that, although it is counter to your point of tempering expectations of revenue increase.

Flight #24
11-02-2005, 10:29 AM
Good post and no, it doesn't preclude the Sox from negotiating a new contract if they decline the team option on him. He wants to stay and the Sox brass wants him back, if he's reasonably healthy, they'll find a way to do it in an incentive-laden deal, IMO.

IIRC, the key deadline for them is the Dec 7(?) arb deadline. If they offer him arb, he'd be a fool not to take it and guarantee him no less than IIRC 80% of his $8M in 2005, or $6.5M. If they don't offer it, then they can't negotiate with him until May.

Or it could be the ultimate in good faith on his part to commit to them that he'll decline arb, which will IIRC let them keep negotiating. But hopefully they get a deal done before then. There's an article in the ST on that, which is notable mostly because it's one of the few times that local media has been supportive of Frank, and any public pressure to keep him will only be a positive thing.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 10:49 AM
There is no problem signing guys to big multi-year deals as long as you have other significant multiyear deals expiring over the next 2-3 seasons as the Sox do.

Everyone likes to tout the radio deal, but the Sox got a HUGE bump in TV revenue from being a partnet with Comcast Sports Net. You might want to mention that, although it is counter to your point of tempering expectations of revenue increase.That's a very good point. You have to consider the total payroll, who you're adding and whose contracts are expiring. But an expiring contract really only helps you if it's someone you're not planning to re-sign. Given the number of OF prospects waiting in the wings, Dye might fall into that category. Contreras' contract expires after 2006, but assuming he continues to pitch the way he did in 2005, I'd think they'd want to re-sign him. Hernandez' contract expires after 2006. Those are the only big ones I can think of.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 10:51 AM
That's a very good point. You have to consider the total payroll, who you're adding and whose contracts are expiring. But an expiring contract really only helps you if it's someone you're not planning to re-sign. Given the number of OF prospects waiting in the wings, Dye might fall into that category. Contreras' contract expires after 2006, but assuming he continues to pitch the way he did in 2005, I'd think they'd want to re-sign him. Hernandez' contract expires after 2006. Those are the only big ones I can think of.

Contreras, El Duque, Dye (2007 option near current salary), and Iguchi after next year. Buehrle, Uribe and Garcia the following year, IIRC.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 11:13 AM
Contreras, El Duque, Dye (2007 option near current salary), and Iguchi after next year. Buehrle, Uribe and Garcia the following year, IIRC.Assuming no sudden fall-off in production, Contreras, Iguchi and Buehrle aren't really coming off the books since they're probably going to want to re-sign them. If anything, they're going to get increases over what they're paying them now. Hernandez and Dye are probably the most significant, since both have much cheaper replacements already identified. So you could have $10M freed up after 2006. You could justifiably factor that in to justify spending a bit more money in 2006.

MisterB
11-02-2005, 11:20 AM
IIRC, the key deadline for them is the Dec 7(?) arb deadline. If they offer him arb, he'd be a fool not to take it and guarantee him no less than IIRC 80% of his $8M in 2005, or $6.5M. If they don't offer it, then they can't negotiate with him until May.


If they buy out his contract, they will not offer arbitration.

$3.5M buyout + $6.4M minimum salary from arbitration = $9.9M salary

Why go through all that trouble to save $100K? :?:

Randar68
11-02-2005, 11:22 AM
Assuming no sudden fall-off in production, Contreras, Iguchi and Buehrle aren't really coming off the books since they're probably going to want to re-sign them. If anything, they're going to get increases over what they're paying them now. Hernandez and Dye are probably the most significant, since both have much cheaper replacements already identified. So you could have $10M freed up after 2006. You could justifiably factor that in to justify spending a bit more money in 2006.

Sure, but that is where the flexibility is if you don't reach your revenue projections. Those contracts are not signed today and probably won't be until the year before they hit FA at the earliest.

Flexibility and money coming off the books in relation to if you can sign any guys to big long-term deals... Isn't that what we're talking about here?

jdm2662
11-02-2005, 12:03 PM
I don't think signing Konerko will be an issue. I think it will be done. The Frank/Carl situation sucks for Williams. Having a highly touted prospect ready in Brian Anderson might be a good back up plan, but he is an unproven rookie. I became a big fan of Anderson this season and looking forward to him getting a shot, but he is still an unproven. The real issue coming up will be the starting pitching, not this year but in the next couple of years. Let's face it, it is going to be very hard to keep the entire staff together if they continue to perform at a high level. Having McCarthy at the min or low end for a couple of seasons will help. However, if he continues to pitch well, he will warrant a higher salary. I believe MB is on the books for $9 million next season, and an option for 2007 for that amount. He is going to command even higher afterwards. In my view, what to do with Garland is a big step. Do you give him a one year deal and make him prove his worth? If he has a good year, you are risking losing him. It will get interesting on how that will pan out. However, we should be solid for at least the next two years. We will only need five more titles for the minimum eight peat.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 12:39 PM
Sure, but that is where the flexibility is if you don't reach your revenue projections. Those contracts are not signed today and probably won't be until the year before they hit FA at the earliest.

Flexibility and money coming off the books in relation to if you can sign any guys to big long-term deals... Isn't that what we're talking about here?I assume by "those contracts" you're talking about Iguchi, Buehrle and Contreras. I think you want to try not to put yourself in a position where you can't afford to re-sign these guys in the future. Taking on too much long-term contract now could put you in that situation. All teams are subject to bad breaks. The Sox were lucky this year in that their pitching staff was relatively injury-free. They might not be so lucky next year. IMO, it's better to be a little conservative. Rather than embark on a wholescale restructuring of the team, I'd opt for a few selected improvements. Hold back a little money for mid-season acquisitions or to replace someone who gets hurt.

nevr say dye sox
11-02-2005, 01:26 PM
I would to resign Paulie, but make sure we don't over pay. I feel that if he decides not to stay, Thome would be our best option. He is a better athlete than Konerko, he is a left handed bat that we need and probably if healthy could put up as good of numbers as Paulie at a discount of a price. Philles will pay a lot of the contract, give the money to Burhle and Garland lock them up. Also I would rather see them get Thome and Wagner then give Paulie big money.

asindc
11-02-2005, 02:03 PM
Contreras, El Duque, Dye (2007 option near current salary), and Iguchi after next year. Buehrle, Uribe and Garcia the following year, IIRC.

Is that Dye's or the team's option?

WestSox
11-02-2005, 02:08 PM
I assume by "those contracts" you're talking about Iguchi, Buehrle and Contreras. I think you want to try not to put yourself in a position where you can't afford to re-sign these guys in the future.

I wouldn't even think about re-signing Contreras. IIRC, he'll be 34 next year (assuming that his birth records are accurate). Not a good inventment, IMO, especially considering the depth of this rotation. I wouldn't break the bank for Tad, either. On the other hand, Buehrle is almost certainly worth the investment.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 03:05 PM
I assume by "those contracts" you're talking about Iguchi, Buehrle and Contreras. I think you want to try not to put yourself in a position where you can't afford to re-sign these guys in the future. Taking on too much long-term contract now could put you in that situation. All teams are subject to bad breaks. The Sox were lucky this year in that their pitching staff was relatively injury-free. They might not be so lucky next year. IMO, it's better to be a little conservative. Rather than embark on a wholescale restructuring of the team, I'd opt for a few selected improvements. Hold back a little money for mid-season acquisitions or to replace someone who gets hurt.

Earlier you were saying you can't afford to sign big long-term deals because if your payroll projections fall short, you're screwed.

In retort, I'm saying that you have a significant chunk of money coming off the books over the next 2 offseasons that COULD be used to alleviate those shortfalls in projected revenue SHOULD that occur.

Where are YOU trying to go with this? I'm not arguing we should put ourself in a position to not afford guys in the future, but Hell if I don't want to repeat and sitting on your laurels is a sure way to fail at that.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 03:06 PM
Is that Dye's or the team's option?

Team option.

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 03:20 PM
Earlier you were saying you can't afford to sign big long-term deals because if your payroll projections fall short, you're screwed.

In retort, I'm saying that you have a significant chunk of money coming off the books over the next 2 offseasons that COULD be used to alleviate those shortfalls in projected revenue SHOULD that occur.

Where are YOU trying to go with this? I'm not arguing we should put ourself in a position to not afford guys in the future, but Hell if I don't want to repeat and sitting on your laurels is a sure way to fail at that.Where I'm going is that if you commit so much money in long term contracts that you risk not being able to re-sign guys like Buehrle and Iguchi, that's the same thing as being screwed. If you want to sign Furcal and another big bat, that could put them in that position if revenues fall short of projections.

You seem to be advocating wholescale changes in a team that just won the World Series. I'm certainly not advocating standing pat, but I'd be a lot more conservative. I can live with Uribe at SS and Rowand in CF. They're not All-Stars, but they're good enough. Get the big bat. Add another LH in the bullpen instead of Marte. Upgrade the bench. I don't think they need more changes than that.

nodiggity59
11-02-2005, 04:31 PM
My plan:

1. Re sign Paulie.

2. Get a LH DH: Giles, Matsui, Thome (1/2 his deal), Howard. Possibly a RH but someone with good OBP and pop. Offer Rowand, Marte and top prospects as your main trading chips. Keep McCarthy and Jenks at all costs.

3. Start Anderson in center.

4. Consider dumping Hermie and/or El Duque. It may be a luxury to have these guys sitting around. Of course, the only reason to get rid of them is $ so if other teams won't pick up the tab then keep'em.

Randar68
11-02-2005, 05:16 PM
Where I'm going is that if you commit so much money in long term contracts that you risk not being able to re-sign guys like Buehrle and Iguchi, that's the same thing as being screwed. If you want to sign Furcal and another big bat, that could put them in that position if revenues fall short of projections.

You seem to be advocating wholescale changes in a team that just won the World Series. I'm certainly not advocating standing pat, but I'd be a lot more conservative. I can live with Uribe at SS and Rowand in CF. They're not All-Stars, but they're good enough. Get the big bat. Add another LH in the bullpen instead of Marte. Upgrade the bench. I don't think they need more changes than that.

Wholesale changes? I want to add a legit #3 hitter and DH to replace an aging Carl Everett. I want to add an All-Star SS. And I want to start one of our better and most MLB-ready prospects in CF. Oh yeah, and resign Konerko.

That's "wholesale changes?" *****! Yeah, keep the rotation (with McCarthy instead of El Duque that is a formality) that got us a World Series and keep almost the entire bullpen. Then, keep 6 of the 8 regulars position players, replacing them with a very good prospect and an All-Star #2 hitter...

Sorry, man, but I want to improve the offense BECAUSE we have great pitching. I haven't touched the pitching that basically carried us to a championship...

"wholesale changes?" Good lord, are you reading what you're writing? Replace our #7 and #9 hitters with equivalent defensive players add a legit #3 bat to replace a mediocre DH...

You're worried about 3 years down the road? Hell, let's win this thing again in 2006 and worry about the rest later! You're not making things impossible down the road. The only reason I mention the expiring contracts is that you then have flexibility in how you adjust payroll should expectations of revenue not be met and we have to dial back.

Your alternate plan seems to be "don't improve the team or add payroll because lord knows in 2 years we might get stuck with a bad contract"... You don't play this game scared, guys. Play to win or go home now.

Flight #24
11-02-2005, 05:16 PM
If they buy out his contract, they will not offer arbitration.

$3.5M buyout + $6.4M minimum salary from arbitration = $9.9M salary

Why go through all that trouble to save $100K? :?:

Which was exactly my point: that the deadline to resign Frank is 12/7. The only way he's back after then is if he wants to stay so bad that he either waits until May or commits to them that if offered arb he'll decline it so that they can continue negotiating. Neither is likely to happen, IMO. So 12/7 is the deadline.

mcfish
11-02-2005, 05:25 PM
I wouldn't even think about re-signing Contreras. IIRC, he'll be 34 next year (assuming that his birth records are accurate). Not a good inventment, IMO, especially considering the depth of this rotation. I wouldn't break the bank for Tad, either. On the other hand, Buehrle is almost certainly worth the investment.Also to consider is that we aren't actually paying Contreras his full salary. I can't imagine him wanting to sign for less money than he currently makes - he'll probably want a raise if he has another great season. So that's what? 9 million or so minimum to resign the guy (an increase of 4 million or so from what we pay him now)? Is it going to be feasible to sign a 35? year old pitcher to a 3 year $26-30M contract next year?

Taliesinrk
11-02-2005, 06:22 PM
I don't think people appreciate the fact that we have Aaron Rowand. I honestly think that if we trade him away, people will begin to realize he wasn't just an average CF who made an occasional good play on defense. I also am not so sure that he can't hit like he did in 2004 again.

WestSox
11-02-2005, 06:38 PM
Also to consider is that we aren't actually paying Contreras his full salary. I can't imagine him wanting to sign for less money than he currently makes - he'll probably want a raise if he has another great season. So that's what? 9 million or so minimum to resign the guy (an increase of 4 million or so from what we pay him now)? Is it going to be feasible to sign a 35? year old pitcher to a 3 year $26-30M contract next year?

Nope. Two words: Mike Mussina

"He gawnne!"

Ol' No. 2
11-02-2005, 07:47 PM
Wholesale changes? I want to add a legit #3 hitter and DH to replace an aging Carl Everett. I want to add an All-Star SS. And I want to start one of our better and most MLB-ready prospects in CF. Oh yeah, and resign Konerko.

That's "wholesale changes?" *****! Yeah, keep the rotation (with McCarthy instead of El Duque that is a formality) that got us a World Series and keep almost the entire bullpen. Then, keep 6 of the 8 regulars position players, replacing them with a very good prospect and an All-Star #2 hitter...

Sorry, man, but I want to improve the offense BECAUSE we have great pitching. I haven't touched the pitching that basically carried us to a championship...

"wholesale changes?" Good lord, are you reading what you're writing? Replace our #7 and #9 hitters with equivalent defensive players add a legit #3 bat to replace a mediocre DH...

You're worried about 3 years down the road? Hell, let's win this thing again in 2006 and worry about the rest later! You're not making things impossible down the road. The only reason I mention the expiring contracts is that you then have flexibility in how you adjust payroll should expectations of revenue not be met and we have to dial back.

Your alternate plan seems to be "don't improve the team or add payroll because lord knows in 2 years we might get stuck with a bad contract"... You don't play this game scared, guys. Play to win or go home now.Nowhere did I say anything remotely close to "don't improve the team or add payroll because lord knows in 2 years we might get stuck with a bad contract". In fact, what I said was the OPPOSITE.
I'm certainly not advocating standing pat,...Anderson is a very promising rookie. But he's also untested. We've had lots of promising rookies that struggled in their first year, and I'm not ready to turn the keys to the Caddy over to him just yet. If he does struggle, you have no backup plan.

There's simply no way they are going to add enough payroll to accomodate what you want to do. And even that depends on the $13M savings from unloading Hernandez, Uribe, Rowand and Marte. There's probably a market only for Uribe and Rowand. Hernandez and Marte you'll have a hard time giving away unless you pay almost their whole salary. Those one-time write-offs go only so far. And you're still short a lefty in the bullpen, which IMO is a higher priority than replacing Uribe and Rowand.

FWIW, I agree that adding a solid bat is a top priority. But I'd put improving the bullpen at the second priority. Marte was held together by tape and baling wire toward the end of the season. Hermanson is very iffy. Vizcaino is strictly a last resort. The only reliable relievers are Jenks, Cotts and Politte. Are you really telling me that replacing Rowand is more urgent than reinforcing that bullpen? If so, you're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree.

SouthSoxFan
11-02-2005, 08:09 PM
Y'all have been spending too much time managing your fantasy leagues, and have forgotten the way this franchise operates. Furcal??? Giles??? The last tier 1 free agent we signed was Albert Belle. And remember how that worked out? Well the front office still does, because its apparent in our subsequent dealings that we don't want to get into bidding wars for the top guys. We're much more comfortable in the 2nd tier finding bargains, like Pierzynski, Dye, and Hermanson. Given the success we've had doing just that, I don't see why we would change and start acting like the Red Sox, Orioles, Angels, etc.

maurice
11-02-2005, 09:58 PM
Hernandez and Marte you'll have a hard time giving away unless you pay almost their whole salary.

I wouldn't pay a dime.

Somebody will want Hernandez, especially now that he's essentially on a one-year deal. If you can't find any takers during the offseason, stick him in long relief and ship him to the Yanks at mid-season when half of their pitching staff is on the DL.

Marte doesn't get paid much and plenty of teams would love to add a lefty reliever with a 3.20 career ERA. Even if they look at this year alone, he kept his ERA under 4 and had a 10.72 K/9.

If I were a MLB GM, I wouldn't want either of them, but it only takes one other GM to do a deal.

maurice
11-02-2005, 10:00 PM
we don't want to get into bidding wars for the top guys.

It's true that Konerko and Giles probably will go elsewhere if they just take the highest offer. Perhaps, the WS rings will make them think twice.

voodoochile
11-02-2005, 10:48 PM
Nowhere did I say anything remotely close to "don't improve the team or add payroll because lord knows in 2 years we might get stuck with a bad contract". In fact, what I said was the OPPOSITE.
Anderson is a very promising rookie. But he's also untested. We've had lots of promising rookies that struggled in their first year, and I'm not ready to turn the keys to the Caddy over to him just yet. If he does struggle, you have no backup plan.

There's simply no way they are going to add enough payroll to accomodate what you want to do. And even that depends on the $13M savings from unloading Hernandez, Uribe, Rowand and Marte. There's probably a market only for Uribe and Rowand. Hernandez and Marte you'll have a hard time giving away unless you pay almost their whole salary. Those one-time write-offs go only so far. And you're still short a lefty in the bullpen, which IMO is a higher priority than replacing Uribe and Rowand.

FWIW, I agree that adding a solid bat is a top priority. But I'd put improving the bullpen at the second priority. Marte was held together by tape and baling wire toward the end of the season. Hermanson is very iffy. Vizcaino is strictly a last resort. The only reliable relievers are Jenks, Cotts and Politte. Are you really telling me that replacing Rowand is more urgent than reinforcing that bullpen? If so, you're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree.

I got a backup plan...

Make Manny the guy you get to fill that big bat role and if Anderson struggles, bump Pods to CF, put Manny back in LF and hope Frank is healthy enough by then to DH (Pods, Iguchi, Manny, PK, Frank... who cares...:drool: )

Now this thread is sure to reach 500 posts because I will get replies from the Manny haters and from Randar asking if I've lost my mind for even considering Pods for CF...

Tragg
11-02-2005, 11:02 PM
Rowand made a name for himself with his defense in NY this year, he was on a WS team, he has SOME value, trade him now. You have 2 CF'ers in the wings and 2 other OF'ers 12-18 months away. You have critical mass. Make a move to better the team elsewhere while trading little, if anything, at that position for 2006.
I agree. And both NY and Boston will be looking hard for CFs; those teams have enough pop in the lineup to be able to absorb mediocre offensive production. Those 2 will probably do better but, then, other teams need CFs. Consdering the depth of the minors, he's at his peak, I'd trade him.

Tragg
11-02-2005, 11:08 PM
Nowhere did I say anything remotely close to "don't improve the team or add payroll because lord knows in 2 years we might get stuck with a bad contract". In fact, what I said was the OPPOSITE.
Anderson is a very promising rookie. But he's also untested. We've had lots of promising rookies that struggled in their first year, and I'm not ready to turn the keys to the Caddy over to him just yet. If he does struggle, you have no backup plan.

There's simply no way they are going to add enough payroll to accomodate what you want to do. And even that depends on the $13M savings from unloading Hernandez, Uribe, Rowand and Marte. There's probably a market only for Uribe and Rowand. Hernandez and Marte you'll have a hard time giving away unless you pay almost their whole salary. Those one-time write-offs go only so far. And you're still short a lefty in the bullpen, which IMO is a higher priority than replacing Uribe and Rowand.

FWIW, I agree that adding a solid bat is a top priority. But I'd put improving the bullpen at the second priority. Marte was held together by tape and baling wire toward the end of the season. Hermanson is very iffy. Vizcaino is strictly a last resort. The only reliable relievers are Jenks, Cotts and Politte. Are you really telling me that replacing Rowand is more urgent than reinforcing that bullpen? If so, you're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree.
I think Marte has value; he's cheap, he's a lefty - a good throw in on a trade. Further, his real problem was that he walked people; fix that, he may be okay. But it's time for a change.
Hermanson - agree, his health makes him iffy.
Viz - he's fine, more than acceptable, for the last man in your pen.
El D - he can fill a spot and perhaps starter insurance.
Then maybe a youngster is ready to get some bullpen work in.
We probably should find another arm, but I don't see a real problem.
It would really be nice to keep Konerko AND get a really good number 3 hitter. I'm worried we'll lose Konerko and get a number 3, but be without a number 4.
Also, don't we have a bunch of starters' contracts coming up the next year? Better save some bullets to handle that situation.

Deuce
11-03-2005, 07:12 AM
Now this thread is sure to reach 500 posts because I will get replies from the Manny haters and from Randar asking if I've lost my mind for even considering Pods for CF...

Recipe for Bad Team Chemistry

Step 1: Take team and place into locker room.

Step 2: Add Manny Ramirez.

Step 3: Wait ten minutes for good team chemistry to completely dissolve.

Step 4: After an hour, bad team chemistry will have risen to its fullest. Bake and wait another 88 years before another World Championship.

:redneck

Deuce

mjmcend
11-03-2005, 09:28 AM
About PK:

Agent Craig Landis said Paul Konerko is seeking a deal of six or seven years, possibly including a strict no-trade clause.
"Paul wants a long deal. He wants to spend the second half of his career with a team for the entire time," Landis said. "He doesn't want to be moving around. He wants to settle into a community and buy a house." Landis revealed that the Angels, who are expected to be among Konerko's biggest suitors, have already made contact with him. "They contacted me a couple of days ago to say they are interested," he said. "That's all they said, to officially let us know. They are interested and will be talking to us at a more appropriate time." Nov. 3 - 4:24 am et
Source: Riverside Press-Enterprise (http://www.pe.com/sports/baseball/angels/stories/PE_Sports_Local_D_angels_notes_03.21e60816.html)


Six or seven years? That is a little scary, but I am sure it is just a jumping off point.

asindc
11-03-2005, 09:32 AM
About PK:

Agent Craig Landis said Paul Konerko is seeking a deal of six or seven years, possibly including a strict no-trade clause.
"Paul wants a long deal. He wants to spend the second half of his career with a team for the entire time," Landis said. "He doesn't want to be moving around. He wants to settle into a community and buy a house." Landis revealed that the Angels, who are expected to be among Konerko's biggest suitors, have already made contact with him. "They contacted me a couple of days ago to say they are interested," he said. "That's all they said, to officially let us know. They are interested and will be talking to us at a more appropriate time." Nov. 3 - 4:24 am et
Source: Riverside Press-Enterprise (http://www.pe.com/sports/baseball/angels/stories/PE_Sports_Local_D_angels_notes_03.21e60816.html)


Six or seven years? That is a little scary, but I am sure it is just a jumping off point.

I thought other teams were not allowed to contact PK until after Nov. 10?

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 09:48 AM
I thought other teams were not allowed to contact PK until after Nov. 10?They can talk to him, but can't talk contracts. Here's the actual language in the CBA:
(b) During the period beginning on the day the Player becomes a free agent and ending on the expiration of the free agency election period as defined above in subparagraph (a), any Club representative and any free agent or his representative may talk with each other and discuss the merits of the free agent contracting, when eligible therefor, with the Club, provided, however, that the Club and the free agent shall not negotiate terms or contract with each other. The following subjects are among those which may properly be discussed between any Club and such Player:
(i) the Player’s interest in playing for the Club, and the Club’s interest in having the Player play for it;
(ii) the Club’s plans about how it intends to utilize the Player’s services (as a starting pitcher or reliever, as a designated hitter or not, platooning, etc.);
(iii) the advantages and disadvantages of playing for the Club including the nature of the organization, the climate of the city, availability of suitable housing, etc.;
(iv) length of contract;
(v) guarantee provisions;
(vi) no-trade or limited no-trade provisions.

asindc
11-03-2005, 09:56 AM
They can talk to him, but can't talk contracts. Here's the actual language in the CBA:

That makes sense.

Deuce
11-03-2005, 10:00 AM
Six or seven years? That is a little scary, but I am sure it is just a jumping off point.

Yeah. Jump off the White Sox and onto another team.

SouthSoxFan
11-03-2005, 10:05 AM
"Paul wants a long deal. He wants to spend the second half of his career with a team for the entire time," Landis said.
Time to pull out the "diminished skills" clause...

voodoochile
11-03-2005, 10:28 AM
If PK is indeed seeking a 6-7 year contract, people had better get used to the idea of him leaving. I don't think there is any way in Hell that the Sox sign a contract of that length given the current status of the CBA and the changes to insurance coverage since 9/11.

Pk fits with the Angels very well, I expect them to make him a lengthy offer and if they are indeed seriously making a run at PK the bidding is going to go way up, because the Yankees need a 1B too...

So how do the Sox land Delgado?

Paulwny
11-03-2005, 10:30 AM
All future moves by KW will be determined by Konerko. Until his status is finalized the final $$$ amount for players (fa or trade) is undetermined.

TomBradley72
11-03-2005, 12:31 PM
If PK is indeed seeking a 6-7 year contract, people had better get used to the idea of him leaving. I don't think there is any way in Hell that the Sox sign a contract of that length given the current status of the CBA and the changes to insurance coverage since 9/11.

Pk fits with the Angels very well, I expect them to make him a lengthy offer and if they are indeed seriously making a run at PK the bidding is going to go way up, because the Yankees need a 1B too...

So how do the Sox land Delgado?

It's all positioning to make sure Paulie makes the most of having a great year/post season in his free agent year...the Angels have several top prospects behind Erstad at 1B so there may not be the leverage there that you would first think....I still believe PK wants to come back to the WSox.

SouthSoxFan
11-03-2005, 12:38 PM
because the Yankees need a 1B too...
In the last 30 years, IIRC, Bob Watson was the only RH hitting Yankee first baseman, and that was just for a couple of seasons. I doubt Konerko is on their radar.

maurice
11-03-2005, 02:03 PM
6 or 7 years at $13+ mil. per year?

Thanks for the memories, Paulie. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 02:06 PM
6 or 7 years at $13+ mil. per year?

Thanks for the memories, Paulie. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.That was my first reaction, too, but let's not be hasty. Perhaps they could make those last two years option years that would vest if he met certain targets. Where there's a will there's a way.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 02:39 PM
6 or 7 years at $13+ mil. per year?

Thanks for the memories, Paulie. Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

I'd rather give up prospects for Delgado, Thome, Helton, etc than to commit that kind of money to such a one-dimensional #4 hitter.

soxfanreggie
11-03-2005, 02:54 PM
And if we want to look at this...move Dye to first with Gload as a backup...then get a power hitting RF.

6-7 years is too long a contract though, for someone like Paulie. I'm looking 4 years, 5 years most with the 5th being a vested/team option.

mcfish
11-03-2005, 03:21 PM
And if we want to look at this...move Dye to first with Gload as a backup...then get a power hitting RF.

6-7 years is too long a contract though, for someone like Paulie. I'm looking 4 years, 5 years most with the 5th being a vested/team option.:?: Why do so many people want Dye at 1B????????

Deuce
11-03-2005, 03:34 PM
:?: Why do so many people want Dye at 1B????????

Would you prefer Gload? Given the team me have, Dye makes the most sense. It is a position he could play, and one he may want to play, given his age. If Paulie is gone (which looks more and more likely every day) and if we cannot pick up a first baseman, Dye is our best option. That leaves Dye's outfield spot open for Anderson. It's not the best situation, but its better than Gload full time.

Deuce

Randar68
11-03-2005, 03:35 PM
:?: Why do so many people want Dye at 1B????????

This might have been the first mention of it in this thread.

Why do people want to generalize so simplistically?

Add a few more question marks. Someone might have missed the first 12 of them.

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 04:02 PM
Sweaty Freddy for Lyle Overbay and a minor leaguer. Frees extra $ to sign Pauly, AJ, Crede, & Garland to new deals and avoid arb. Rumor has Garcia on blocks, Sox like Overbay, he makes under $500,000, Sox-Brewers have good relations, Brewers have 1B controversy with Fielder, & Brewers need proven starter.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 04:14 PM
Sweaty Freddy for Lyle Overbay and a minor leaguer. Frees extra $ to sign Pauly, AJ, Crede, & Garland to new deals and avoid arb. Rumor has Garcia on blocks, Sox like Overbay, he makes under $500,000, Sox-Brewers have good relations, Brewers have 1B controversy with Fielder, & Brewers need proven starter.

We'd better be getting Prince Fielder for Freddie Garcia if we trade him to the Brewers.

Why would the Brewers take on a deal with something like 18 million remaining over 2 seasons? That's crazy-talk!

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 04:20 PM
We'd better be getting Prince Fielder for Freddie Garcia if we trade him to the Brewers.

Why would the Brewers take on a deal with something like 18 million remaining over 2 seasons? That's crazy-talk!

New owner is rumored to okay expanded salary in order to win. Garcia will win! He would make them a legit contender.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 04:21 PM
New owner is rumored to okay expanded salary in order to win. Garcia will win! He would make them a legit contender.

And why would we trade a starter that valuable for a first-baseman with a dozen clones running around in FA?

That trade makes as much sense as a bullet in the head.

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 04:29 PM
And why would we trade a starter that valuable for a first-baseman with a dozen clones running around in FA?

That trade makes as much sense as a bullet in the head.

I didn't put him on the trading block, I just heard he was from talk radio. If he is then he's going somewhere. Name the dozen clones in FA. The Sox like Overbay and his salary. Its the only reason I mention him. I'd take Fielder, too, but the Brewers will hang on to him.

voodoochile
11-03-2005, 04:35 PM
I didn't put him on the trading block, I just heard he was from talk radio. If he is then he's going somewhere. Name the dozen clones in FA. The Sox like Overbay and his salary. Its the only reason I mention him. I'd take Fielder, too, but the Brewers will hang on to him.

Everything you have posted is strictly a rumor to date. If you are going to base your answers on rumors, you are going to get hammered around these parts.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 04:36 PM
The Sox like Overbay and his salary.

Since when? A bunch of boobs on a message board like Overbay because he fits some kind of Billy Beanean theory...

Might as well play Ross Gload and save Freddie Garcia.

salty99
11-03-2005, 04:38 PM
Not sure if anyone posted this yet but Jaime Burke got picked up by the Rangers.

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 04:44 PM
Since when? A bunch of boobs on a message board like Overbay because he fits some kind of Billy Beanean theory...

Might as well play Ross Gload and save Freddie Garcia.

I didn't say I would like that trade. I'm just saying it would make sense based on Reinsdorf logic. They've had interest in him all year because he's a decent player for $500k and would give them the cash to sign our favorite players. If anyone thinks he's going to increase the payroll in the amount it would take to bring everyone back AND add a decent DH, you're all living in dreamland. There's going to be sacrifices.

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 04:48 PM
I didn't say I would like that trade. I'm just saying it would make sense based on Reinsdorf logic. They've had interest in him all year because he's a decent player for $500k and would give them the cash to sign our favorite players. If anyone thinks he's going to increase the payroll in the amount it would take to bring everyone back AND add a decent DH, you're all living in dreamland. There's going to be sacrifices.We've already got a Lyle Overbay. His name is Ross Gload.

You've really got to stop believing every dumb-ass rumor that's floating around. 99.99% of them are pure fiction.

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 04:53 PM
And why would we trade a starter that valuable for a first-baseman with a dozen clones running around in FA?

That trade makes as much sense as a bullet in the head.

Randar, still waiting for your dozen FA Overbay clone list.....tick...tock..tick...tock.....

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 04:58 PM
Randar, still waiting for your dozen FA Overbay clone list.....tick...tock..tick...tock.....Joe Randa. No, wait...Joe Randa plays a more difficult defensive position.:rolleyes:

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 05:03 PM
We've already got a Lyle Overbay. His name is Ross Gload.

You've really got to stop believing every dumb-ass rumor that's floating around. 99.99% of them are pure fiction.

Well, someone (or more) is not coming back. Who's it going to be? An expensive pitcher makes the most sense to me with McCarthy waiting in the wings. Its the only spot we have a legitimate replacement. We have two expensive experienced pitchers in Garcia & Contreras. I want everyone back but its not going to happen. We're not going to have a $90m+ payroll next year unless Reinsdorf goes against everything he's been in the past.

Ol' No. 2
11-03-2005, 05:04 PM
Well, someone (or more) is not coming back. Who's it going to be? An expensive pitcher makes the most sense to me with McCarthy waiting in the wings. Its the only spot we have a legitimate replacement. We have two expensive experienced pitchers in Garcia & Contreras. I want everyone back but its not going to happen. We're not going to have a $90m+ payroll next year unless Reinsdorf goes against everything he's been in the past.8 days removed from the World Series and we have our first "cheap and stupid". I knew it was too good to last.:rolleyes:

Randar68
11-03-2005, 05:04 PM
Randar, still waiting for your dozen FA Overbay clone list.....tick...tock..tick...tock.....

Kevin Millar
Erubiel Durazo
Doug Mientkiewicz
Scott Hatteberg
Tino Martinez
Ross Gload



Here are 6. Me exhaggerating on the number of equivalent B-level 1B in FA does nothing to validate your asinine assertions that:


1) Freddie for Overbay would be a good deal (dumbest trade proposal I've heard in a long time)
2) The Sox are even interested in Lyle Overbay


If it helps you sleep better after looking like a fool, good for you.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 05:06 PM
Well, someone (or more) is not coming back. Who's it going to be? An expensive pitcher makes the most sense to me with McCarthy waiting in the wings. Its the only spot we have a legitimate replacement. We have two expensive experienced pitchers in Garcia & Contreras. I want everyone back but its not going to happen. We're not going to have a $90m+ payroll next year unless Reinsdorf goes against everything he's been in the past.

:bong:

Give me a call when you sober up.

Randar68
11-03-2005, 05:07 PM
Well, someone (or more) is not coming back. Who's it going to be? An expensive pitcher makes the most sense to me with McCarthy waiting in the wings. Its the only spot we have a legitimate replacement. We have two expensive experienced pitchers in Garcia & Contreras. I want everyone back but its not going to happen. We're not going to have a $90m+ payroll next year unless Reinsdorf goes against everything he's been in the past.

Yeah, amd we're going to send 9 million dollars in salary to the BREWERS! BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

:dtroll:

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 05:31 PM
Kevin Millar
Erubiel Durazo
Doug Mientkiewicz
Scott Hatteberg
Tino Martinez
Ross Gload



Here are 6. Me exhaggerating on the number of equivalent B-level 1B in FA does nothing to validate your asinine assertions that:


1) Freddie for Overbay would be a good deal (dumbest trade proposal I've heard in a long time)
2) The Sox are even interested in Lyle Overbay


If it helps you sleep better after looking like a fool, good for you.





That's funny. I don't see where I said it was a good trade but if you did, more power to you. I'm not proposing it as a trade I'd want. This thread is about what we think will happen. Based on Reinsdorf's tight budget, a trade like this will happen or we will lose Konerko or more than 1 of the arbitration signings. My trade also said a minor leaguer and my mistake was that I didn't say top prospect.

That's quite a list. Millar is a righty bat, Durazo was hurt most of the year, Mientkiewicz hit .240 in only 88 games, Hatteberg hit .256, & Matinez hit .241. Gload is fine backup but not the consistent power for an everyday DH. Yeah, I can see how each one of these is an Overbay clone. Whodafool?

Rounding_Third
11-03-2005, 05:55 PM
Maybe it's better to ask this question. What will be the payroll for next year and how will it break down? When I do the math to return everyone, I see an unrealisitic payroll on a Reinsdorf owned team.

Current payroll: $75m
-Frank & Carl 63m
+salary increases 68m
+AJ,Joe, Jon 78m
+Pauly increase 84m
+good DH 90m

If Reinsdorf comes in at over $85m, I'd be in shock. It'll probably be closer to $80m. This doesn't include the $4m already spent on Frank & Carl.