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WCCMIKE
10-29-2005, 06:17 PM
For some reason say we can't sign Konerko do you guys think Manny would play for us.I'm not the biggest Manny fan but anyone who can put up 40 bombs and 100 rbis every year is needed

MarySwiss
10-29-2005, 06:24 PM
For some reason say we can't sign Konerko do you guys think Manny would play for us.I'm not the biggest Manny fan but anyone who can put up 40 bombs and 100 rbis every year is needed

Uh, I hope not.

hose
10-29-2005, 06:29 PM
For some reason say we can't sign Konerko do you guys think Manny would play for us.I'm not the biggest Manny fan but anyone who can put up 40 bombs and 100 rbis every year is needed

Manny is a great hitter but he is not a grinder and is more suited for NYY/NYM

antitwins13
10-29-2005, 06:30 PM
Uh, I hope not.

Why not? He's good for 40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average. He would be a great fit if Konerko leaves, and like I have said before and will say again Manny is not a cancer!

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2005, 06:33 PM
Why not? He's good for 40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average. He would be a great fit if Konerko leaves, and like I have said before and will say again Manny is not a cancer!I didn't know Manny played 1B.:o:

Banix12
10-29-2005, 06:35 PM
The Red Sox don't seem willing to eat a large portion of that contract, some for sure, but not that much. that would be the only way he comes here.

He has stated he would like to play for Ozzie, I'm just not entirely sold that it's either possible or what the white sox should really invest in. Great Player, no doubt, but for a team based on trying to give it's all it would seem odd to bring in a $20 million dollar player who tends to take plays off.

I also can't imagine what the Red Sox would want in return but I think it would be pitching, since I don't see them wanting any of the white sox hitters. Right now the pitching is more valuable than manny.

If Manny is traded he is going to be a Met.

chaotic8512
10-29-2005, 06:37 PM
IF (and I hope not) Manny replaces Konerko, I heard from rotoworld.com (although it regarded a different situation) that Dye could possibly move to 1B, leaving Manny in right...

Like that would happen though... no matter how good he is offensively, I don't care for his attitude.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2005, 06:40 PM
IF (and I hope not) Manny replaces Konerko, I heard from rotoworld.com (although it regarded a different situation) that Dye could possibly move to 1B, leaving Manny in right...

Like that would happen though... no matter how good he is offensively, I don't care for his attitude.LF in Fenway park is the easiest OF job in all of MLB. And he butchers that. Right field? His first 50 RBI would just get them even.

MadetoOrta
10-29-2005, 06:45 PM
Not going to happen. Didn't KW comment during the ALCS about Manny taking off his batting gloves after hitting the 2d homer against the Sox in Game 3 of the ALDS. KW said something about "that doesn't fit on our ballclub."

SOX ADDICT '73
10-29-2005, 06:48 PM
Why not? He's good for He would be a great fit if Konerko leaves, and like I have said before and will say again Manny is not a cancer!
The 2006 White Sox will have no use for a whining, complaining, headline-seeking, spotlight-hogging, lazy-ass defensive outfielder, admiring his home runs and referring to himself in the third person. Imagine Dye, winning the World Series MVP, saying "That's just Jermaine being Jermaine."

We tried the "40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average" thing for a few years, and what did we have to show for it? A good look at the rear license plate on the Minnesota Twins bus as they headed off to the postseason. The 2005 Sox won as a team, not an assemblage of superstars. That's a big reason why they got no respect, why so few people tuned in to the most closely contested World Series sweep you'll ever see, but it's also the main reason they're champions. Ramirez can peddle his services elsewhere as far as I'm concerned. Let "Manny be Manny" for his buddy Pedro and the Mets.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2005, 06:52 PM
The 2006 White Sox will have no use for a whining, complaining, headline-seeking, spotlight-hogging, lazy-ass defensive outfielder, admiring his home runs and referring to himself in the third person. Imagine Dye, winning the World Series MVP, saying "That's just Jermaine being Jermaine."

We tried the "40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average" thing for a few years, and what did we have to show for it? A good look at the rear license plate on the Minnesota Twins bus as they headed off to the postseason. The 2005 Sox won as a team, not an assemblage of superstars. That's a big reason why they got no respect, why so few people tuned in to the most closely contested World Series sweep you'll ever see, but it's also the main reason they're champions. Ramirez can peddle his services elsewhere as far as I'm concerned. Let "Manny be Manny" for his buddy Pedro and the Mets.A-freakin-men.

MarySwiss
10-29-2005, 06:53 PM
Why not? He's good for 40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average. He would be a great fit if Konerko leaves, and like I have said before and will say again Manny is not a cancer!

Say it all you want; that doesn't make it a fact. Considering that AJ was labeled a "cancer" by some, I am loath to throw that label around, but it certainly seems to me that a guy who keeps whining to be traded is not what one would call a "team" player.

And as others have pointed out, he doesn't play first base. So he's good for 40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average. Whoopee-doo. This year, Konerko was good for 40 bombs, 100 RBI, and a 283 batting average. Factor in that Ramirez is 33 while Paulie is 29. And then look at the intangibles: good guy vs. chronic complainer.

I like the current configuration just fine. Of course, there will be changes. But they should be for the better. IMO, acquiring Manny would not be an upgrade.

antitwins13
10-29-2005, 06:54 PM
The 2006 White Sox will have no use for a whining, complaining, headline-seeking, spotlight-hogging, lazy-ass defensive outfielder, admiring his home runs and referring to himself in the third person. Imagine Dye, winning the World Series MVP, saying "That's just Jermaine being Jermaine."

We tried the "40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average" thing for a few years, and what did we have to show for it? A good look at the rear license plate on the Minnesota Twins bus as they headed off to the postseason. The 2005 Sox won as a team, not an assemblage of superstars. That's a big reason why they got no respect, why so few people tuned in to the most closely contested World Series sweep you'll ever see, but it's also the main reason they're champions. Ramirez can peddle his services elsewhere as far as I'm concerned. Let "Manny be Manny" for his buddy Pedro and the Mets.

I agree with you on one point. We need to keep our grinders and small ball players who play good team baseball, but if Konerko leaves and we move Dye to first what's wrong with replacing his power with one of the games' greatest hitters?

Banix12
10-29-2005, 07:02 PM
I agree with you on one point. We need to keep our grinders and small ball players who play good team baseball, but if Konerko leaves and we move Dye to first what's wrong with replacing his power with one of the games' greatest hitters?

That's not a bad point. Replacing Konerko with Ramirez is basically just a swap of a power hitter. Konerko doesn't do a lot of the little ball stuff anyway.

I still don't know if it is a good idea though. I personally get tired of watching "Manny being Manny" and I only watch him a couple times a year on TV. I can't imagine seeing it every day.

Though he says he wants to play for Ozzie, so maybe it would be different, however I'm not betting on it.

TomBradley72
10-29-2005, 07:03 PM
No way does he belong on our team....especially when we have a boatload of OF's and Frank ready to come back as DH...the $20MM we would pay him would go a long way to resigning/extending Garland, Konerko, Crede, AJ...and he's an overall tool...demanding to be traded AGAIN...

antitwins13
10-29-2005, 07:06 PM
That's not a bad point. Replacing Konerko with Ramirez is basically just a swap of a power hitter. Konerko doesn't do a lot of the little ball stuff anyway.

I still don't know if it is a good idea though. I personally get tired of watching "Manny being Manny" and I only watch him a couple times a year on TV. I can't imagine seeing it every day.

Though he says he wants to play for Ozzie, so maybe it would be different, however I'm not betting on it.


I seem to remember some people saying I don't want AJ Pierzynski because it will be "AJ being AJ" and Ozzie was able to control things. I think he could do the same with Ramirez.

Palehose13
10-29-2005, 07:22 PM
I seem to remember some people saying I don't want AJ Pierzynski because it will be "AJ being AJ" and Ozzie was able to control things. I think he could do the same with Ramirez.

AJ and Manny are two different animals. Aj got along just fine in Minnesota when the team make up personality-wise was very similar to the 2005 Sox. I don't think he did well in SF because that team was made up of prima-madonnas. Manny is a butcher in the OF and lazy as hell. I can't ever see him putting the team above himself and that type of attitude will break the chemistry that the 2005 Sox have. He can take his numbers and head elsewhere for all I care.

Besides, I can't see Boston tradin him to any team in the AL that may be competitive (notice, he was going to to go Texas for Arod).

MarySwiss
10-29-2005, 08:07 PM
No way does he belong on our team....especially when we have a boatload of OF's and Frank ready to come back as DH...the $20MM we would pay him would go a long way to resigning/extending Garland, Konerko, Crede, AJ...and he's an overall tool...demanding to be traded AGAIN...

EXACTLY! And I don't think we'd want him even if we didn't have a boatload of OFs and Frank. He'd still be a tool.

Banix12
10-29-2005, 08:33 PM
I seem to remember some people saying I don't want AJ Pierzynski because it will be "AJ being AJ" and Ozzie was able to control things. I think he could do the same with Ramirez.

AJ rubs people wrong because he's a maximum effort guy who plays the game too hard and ticks people off. However he is always a team guy.

Manny rubs people wrong because he's got all the talent in the world but he plays a sloppy OF, pulls stunts like halting a game by walking into the monster, and demands trades every 20 minutes. He has a reputation of being a selfish player.

It's a different matter than AJ. AJ came here with something to prove as he was getting a second chance. Manny just seems to be tired of the Boston fans and wants out.

peeonwrigley
10-29-2005, 09:23 PM
TomBradley -

Yikes! Your sig pic is creepy -- reminds me of something from like Lord of the Rings or Night of the Living Dead

MISoxfan
10-29-2005, 09:47 PM
The 2006 White Sox will have no use for a whining, complaining, headline-seeking, spotlight-hogging, lazy-ass defensive outfielder, admiring his home runs and referring to himself in the third person. Imagine Dye, winning the World Series MVP, saying "That's just Jermaine being Jermaine."

We tried the "40+ bombs, 125+ RBI, and a .300+ batting average" thing for a few years, and what did we have to show for it? A good look at the rear license plate on the Minnesota Twins bus as they headed off to the postseason. The 2005 Sox won as a team, not an assemblage of superstars. That's a big reason why they got no respect, why so few people tuned in to the most closely contested World Series sweep you'll ever see, but it's also the main reason they're champions. Ramirez can peddle his services elsewhere as far as I'm concerned. Let "Manny be Manny" for his buddy Pedro and the Mets.

Who were all of these 40+ HR 125+ RBI and .300+ BA guys we had? Big Frank's the only one to put up those numbers and not since 2000. He's only done it three times. Maggs came close once. I also don't want anything to do with Manny Ramirez, but he's a better hitter than any of our old power hitters with the exception of Frank.

Banix12
10-29-2005, 10:23 PM
Who were all of these 40+ HR 125+ RBI and .300+ BA guys we had? Big Frank's the only one to put up those numbers and not since 2000. He's only done it three times. Maggs came close once. I also don't want anything to do with Manny Ramirez, but he's a better hitter than any of our old power hitters with the exception of Frank.

how many people are really thinking about the irony of just winning a world series with a starless, no frills team and talking about fixing up the team with star players. We've got this Manny thread and a couple of Delgado threads. I just find this funny.

gf2020
10-29-2005, 10:34 PM
anyone who can put up 40 bombs and 100 rbis every year is needed

:hurt (misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=18#)
"Where do I sign?"

zach074
10-29-2005, 11:08 PM
Plain and simple, we don't need any egos.

Brewski
10-29-2005, 11:12 PM
Manny wants to play for Ozzie? What matters most is what does Ozzie think? I'm sure he will clue KW in on what his real opinion is if the situation comes up. To me, getting Manny would be a step backward to the concept of a team of designated hitters that we just broke out of.

Fredsox
10-29-2005, 11:16 PM
He's a malcontent.
He's overpaid.
He can't play defense.

Other than that, he's a perfect fit.

SOX ADDICT '73
10-30-2005, 12:11 AM
Who were all of these 40+ HR 125+ RBI and .300+ BA guys we had? Big Frank's the only one to put up those numbers and not since 2000. He's only done it three times. Maggs came close once. I also don't want anything to do with Manny Ramirez, but he's a better hitter than any of our old power hitters with the exception of Frank.
Don't forget about Carlos Lee (not those exact stats, but close) and Jose Valentin (whose avg. and strikeout totals were abysmal, but who always put up good power numbers). In both cases, we were sacrificing defense for the sake of offense, which is what we'd be doing by taking on Ramirez. Add in the reports that CLee was a bit of a jerk in the clubhouse, and the comparison is even more apt.

Surely you noticed the difference between this year's White Sox and the teams of the last few years, who couldn't win a game unless three guys homered (or one guy hit a three-run jack). Lots of fireworks, but no hardware to show for it. "Defense and pitching wins championships" always seemed like a cliche to me before this year. I am now a believer!

itsnotrequired
10-30-2005, 01:05 AM
He's a malcontent.
He's overpaid.
He can't play defense.

Other than that, he's a perfect fit.

This is the correct analysis. Do the Sox need to pay $18 million a year for his type of numbers? Damn no. I'd rather have two $9 million a year players.

Banix12
10-30-2005, 01:08 AM
"Defense and pitching wins championships" always seemed like a cliche to me before this year. I am now a believer!

It's one of those things, maybe it was a fluke like all the pundits say but the pitching and defense method worked so well this year why would we even think about switching? Keep a similar makeup to the team next year and if it fails maybe the sox can pick up Manny after his next trade demand.

1951Campbell
10-30-2005, 01:44 AM
He's a malcontent.
He's overpaid.
He can't play defense.

Other than that, he's a perfect fit.

Allow me to play devil's advocate. What have we heard from the media this year:

"AJ is a clubhouse cancer."

"Frank is a clubhouse cancer, a prima donna, we gotta dump his salary type of guy. He hates Ozzie. Malcontent."

"Carl is an umpire-head-butting, dinosaur non-believing homophobe."

"Pods was a waste. Overrated"

"Bobby Jenks tried to set his hand on fire and hates Jews."

"Buehrle doesn't care about the team and wants to get on the Cards ASAP."

"Ozzie is one 13-game losing streak away from a shooting spree on Daley Plaza."

Now, after picking up or having kept all these fellows, do you really think Ramirez' 40+ HRs and 125+ RBIs is something you can turn away? Could he not be a grinder? I know, I know, he wants a ton of money and he is somewhat of a space cadet, but jeez, could we at least think about it if the money is reasonable? Is his outfield defense worse than watching Paulie go from first to second on a triple?

LuvSox
10-30-2005, 01:01 AM
Manny Ramirez = attention whore. And a ****ty left fielder. The ESPN markets of NY and Boston can keep him.

We have a TEAM. We don't need an attention whore.

itsnotrequired
10-30-2005, 01:04 AM
Now, after picking up or having kept all these fellows, do you really think Ramirez' 40+ HRs and 125+ RBIs is something you can turn away? Could he not be a grinder? I know, I know, he wants a ton of money and he is somewhat of a space cadet, but jeez, could we at least think about it if the money is reasonable? Is his outfield defense worse than watching Paulie go from first to second on a triple?

I don't think anyone is saying that Manny shouldn't be considered based upon numbers alone but dude is making $22 million this year. Two $11 million players are worth WAY more.

Manny may take a pay cut but I doubt it. Ozzie could possibly whip him into shape but why would KW go after a 33 year old outfielder when so much young outfield talent waits in the wing?

Banix12
10-30-2005, 02:33 AM
Allow me to play devil's advocate. What have we heard from the media this year:

"AJ is a clubhouse cancer."

"Frank is a clubhouse cancer, a prima donna, we gotta dump his salary type of guy. He hates Ozzie. Malcontent."

"Carl is an umpire-head-butting, dinosaur non-believing homophobe."

"Pods was a waste. Overrated"

"Bobby Jenks tried to set his hand on fire and hates Jews."

"Buehrle doesn't care about the team and wants to get on the Cards ASAP."

"Ozzie is one 13-game losing streak away from a shooting spree on Daley Plaza."

Now, after picking up or having kept all these fellows, do you really think Ramirez' 40+ HRs and 125+ RBIs is something you can turn away? Could he not be a grinder? I know, I know, he wants a ton of money and he is somewhat of a space cadet, but jeez, could we at least think about it if the money is reasonable? Is his outfield defense worse than watching Paulie go from first to second on a triple?


To be fair, when the media says those things about the white sox, they never actually seem to talk to them or watch white sox games. The national media pays really close attention to Red Sox games.

I also agree with itsnotrequired, the sox have solid prospects in the OF right now and Ramirez has a gargantuan contract which probably makes it impossible for the white sox to acquire him.

The Red Sox would probably have to eat at least 8 million dollars for the deal to work and judging from the Red Sox current roster holes right now I have to assume the asking price is going to be Brandon McCarthy or some other front line white sox starter. I can't imagine one hitter on the sox that the Red Sox would want other than maybe one of the OF prospects like Young.

Logistically I can't imagine any trade for Ramirez working.

Fredsox
10-30-2005, 09:51 AM
Allow me to play devil's advocate. What have we heard from the media this year:

"AJ is a clubhouse cancer."

"Frank is a clubhouse cancer, a prima donna, we gotta dump his salary type of guy. He hates Ozzie. Malcontent."

"Carl is an umpire-head-butting, dinosaur non-believing homophobe."

"Pods was a waste. Overrated"

"Bobby Jenks tried to set his hand on fire and hates Jews."

"Buehrle doesn't care about the team and wants to get on the Cards ASAP."

"Ozzie is one 13-game losing streak away from a shooting spree on Daley Plaza."

Now, after picking up or having kept all these fellows, do you really think Ramirez' 40+ HRs and 125+ RBIs is something you can turn away? Could he not be a grinder? I know, I know, he wants a ton of money and he is somewhat of a space cadet, but jeez, could we at least think about it if the money is reasonable? Is his outfield defense worse than watching Paulie go from first to second on a triple?

It is a known fact that Ramirez has requested trades from the Red Sox on several occasions, despite being one of the highest-paid players and worshiped by his fans. It is also a known fact that he is a below-average defender, not something that someone made up. It is also a known fact that he makes $18 million a year.

None of this is opinion or speculation. C'mon, didn't we learn anything this year? Yeah, he's a great hitter, but that does NOT mean he's a good fit for our team.

I did some fast calculations on our payroll next year. In addition to our current commitments for 2006, if we hand out some nice raises and pay:

Konerko - $12,000,000 (current 8.75)
Thomas - $ 5,000,000 (3.5 buyout + 1.5)
Garland - $6,000,000 (current 3.5)
Pierzynski -$4,000,000 (current 2.25)
Crede -$2,000,000 (current 0.4)

This would bring us in at about $88-90 million.

Why on earth would we want to spend that money on Ramirez and go cheap on everyone else after we've proved that we can win with these guys?

jabrch
10-30-2005, 10:11 AM
I want both...I want Konerko back, and Manny DHing.


Say whatever you want about Manny's personality, but the guy is one of the best hitters in the game. He's not a clubhouse problem - teammates seem to like him.

I want PK back at 1B - and then I want to see KW swing a deal to strengthen this team for next year by adding Manny.

Call me greedy - but one Championship, great as it is, is not enough.

Fredsox
10-30-2005, 10:22 AM
I want both...I want Konerko back, and Manny DHing.


Say whatever you want about Manny's personality, but the guy is one of the best hitters in the game. He's not a clubhouse problem - teammates seem to like him.

I want PK back at 1B - and then I want to see KW swing a deal to strengthen this team for next year by adding Manny.

Call me greedy - but one Championship, great as it is, is not enough.

It's not about greedy, I think we all want another championship. But here's a point: If you believe that the White Sox can afford a $100 million dollar payroll and are prepared to spend it, then we should try to bring in a hitter of Ramirez's caliber.

If you believe that the cap is around $90 million who are you prepared to give up or screw to bring in Manny? Garland and Pierzynski are headed to arbitration, do we just let them go? What about Crede, doesn't he deserve a bump in pay?

I'll give you that he's a special hitter, I just don't see a scenario in which the White Sox can afford to pay him without decimating the rest of the team and becoming the Boston Red Sox.

gobears1987
10-30-2005, 10:40 AM
Manny Ramirez = attention whore. And a ****ty left fielder. The ESPN markets of NY and Boston can keep him.

We have a TEAM. We don't need an attention whore.THe money he gets can more than pay for Pauly. The BlowSawx are stuck with Manny IMO.

eastchicagosoxfan
10-30-2005, 10:52 AM
Will Manny hit behind the runner? If Ozzie and KW believe he will benefit the team, that's fine. But I don't think he will. The 2005 White Sox did pretty well without him. Bottom Line: Is Manny Ramirez a Grinder? He's a great RBI guy, but I don't think he's a grinder.

jabrch
10-30-2005, 11:03 AM
I'll give you that he's a special hitter, I just don't see a scenario in which the White Sox can afford to pay him without decimating the rest of the team and becoming the Boston Red Sox.

OK - agreed

Here's how it works - in my eyes...

1) Boston has to be willing to pay part of the money to rid themselves of Manny to bring his salary down to a reasonable number.

2) The Sox have to be willing to give a similar package to Boston as what they were willing to give to Cinci for Griffey Jr.

3) Reinsdorf has to be willing to raise the payroll

4) Manny would have to pass Ozzie and KW's sniff test - to see if he'd fit

5) We'd need some comprimise from some of the players to make it work - PK can't want 15mm and Manny in the lineup with him - but if he wants 12mm and Manny, that could happen.

I may be being unrealistic. But if we had a deal in place to get Ken Griffey Jr, I don't see why we can't get Manny, certainly given that Manny (again) is demanding a trade, and this time threatening to not show up to camp.

I'm thrilled we won a WS. I'm still enjoying it - and I will for a long time to come. But now is the time KW can go out and improve this team. It couldn't consistently put runs on the board for long stretches of the season. I think having a guy like Manny in the 3 spot would go a long way to fixing this.

jabrch
10-30-2005, 11:07 AM
Will Manny hit behind the runner? If Ozzie and KW believe he will benefit the team, that's fine. But I don't think he will. The 2005 White Sox did pretty well without him. Bottom Line: Is Manny Ramirez a Grinder? He's a great RBI guy, but I don't think he's a grinder.

Let's not go overboard on this whole grinder thing...Manny doesn't have to hit behind a runner to be effective. He is highly likely to hit over 40 HRs, drive in over 125 runs, hit over .300, have an obp around .400, a slg around .600, and play defensively as good as any player in the game at the DH spot.

This "grinder" thing is nice. It's a nice sloagan. It sounds good. But if we can upgrade from Carl to Manny Ramirez, that's a major upgrade.

munchman33
10-30-2005, 11:17 AM
Despite his problems, Manny carried that Red Sox team all year. Including the playoffs, where without him the sweep wouldn't have even been close in the last two games.

He makes hitters around him better. Look at David Ortiz. The man was released from the Twins, a team perenially in need of power, and suddenly becomes an MVP candadite hitting in front of Manny. Can you imagine the numbers Jermaine Dye would put up in front of Manny? Or even Aaron Rowand, considering he's a good fastball hitter?

jabrch
10-30-2005, 11:23 AM
Despite his problems, Manny carried that Red Sox team all year. Including the playoffs, where without him the sweep wouldn't have even been close in the last two games.

He makes hitters around him better. Look at David Ortiz. The man was released from the Twins, a team perenially in need of power, and suddenly becomes an MVP candadite hitting in front of Manny. Can you imagine the numbers Jermaine Dye would put up in front of Manny? Or even Aaron Rowand, considering he's a good fastball hitter?

Manny can hit 3rd or 4th - depends. But picture having him in our lineup, hitting 3rd, with PK at 4. Imagine what Iguchi would see - pure fastballs? I imagine Pods would see lots of fastballs and lots of strikes. Then PK would have men on base more often. Dye, Row, AJ, etc...

If we could add Manny, and not lose PK, we'd have an offense that would be competitive with the best offenses in the league. Manny is that good.

veeter
10-30-2005, 11:27 AM
The Sox proved this year, you can win with quality players that are quality people. Manny doesn't fit in.

Mohoney
10-30-2005, 11:37 AM
If Konerko walks, I would much rather trade for Carlos Delgado than Manny Ramirez. He would definitely cost less in a trade.

Then you could sign somebody like Tony Clark to DH.

Or we could re-sign Konerko AND trade for Delgado.:o:

TomBradley72
10-30-2005, 11:58 AM
TomBradley -

Yikes! Your sig pic is creepy -- reminds me of something from like Lord of the Rings or Night of the Living Dead

Special White Sox World Champion/Halloween signature :cool:

jabrch
10-30-2005, 12:00 PM
The Sox proved this year, you can win with quality players that are quality people. Manny doesn't fit in.


What am I missing? Does Manny have character issues that I don't know about? I never heard him beat his wife. I never heard his name tied to drugs. I never heard his name tied to steroids. I never heard his name tied to clubhouse fights. Where is this "quality people" thing dinging Manny?

The only thing you can say about him is he is a terrible defensive LF, but if he were on this team he wouldn't be playing LF. He doesn't like Boston - Boston is a tough place for a non-caucasian player to play. That's a statement you hear all the time. Carl hated that place too - for the same reasons.

Put Manny under Ozzie's environment - you may find that Manny isn't all that bad a guy after all. Oh, and did I mention he likely hits something like .300/.400/.600/40/125/125 on the season?

I wouldn't say we should go after Sheffield or Bonds. I wouldn't say we should chase Milton Bradley. But why wouldn't we want Manny, if the price was right?

Ol' No. 2
10-30-2005, 12:48 PM
What am I missing? Does Manny have character issues that I don't know about? I never heard him beat his wife. I never heard his name tied to drugs. I never heard his name tied to steroids. I never heard his name tied to clubhouse fights. Where is this "quality people" thing dinging Manny?

The only thing you can say about him is he is a terrible defensive LF, but if he were on this team he wouldn't be playing LF. He doesn't like Boston - Boston is a tough place for a non-caucasian player to play. That's a statement you hear all the time. Carl hated that place too - for the same reasons.

Put Manny under Ozzie's environment - you may find that Manny isn't all that bad a guy after all. Oh, and did I mention he likely hits something like .300/.400/.600/40/125/125 on the season?

I wouldn't say we should go after Sheffield or Bonds. I wouldn't say we should chase Milton Bradley. But why wouldn't we want Manny, if the price was right?Why in the world is everyone convinced that Manny would agree to DH when he's consistently refused to do so his entire career?

jabrch
10-30-2005, 12:59 PM
Why in the world is everyone convinced that Manny would agree to DH when he's consistently refused to do so his entire career?

Depends on how much he want to get traded from Boston...

If he doesn't want to DH - we have no place for him. I don't want that butcher playing LF for us no matter how well he hits. But if he wants to DH, he's top of my list of pseudo-available guys.

SOXSINCE'70
10-30-2005, 01:23 PM
Manny?? No thanks.

Ol' No. 2
10-30-2005, 01:44 PM
Depends on how much he want to get traded from Boston...

If he doesn't want to DH - we have no place for him. I don't want that butcher playing LF for us no matter how well he hits. But if he wants to DH, he's top of my list of pseudo-available guys.Until he starts whining halfway through the season that he doesn't want to DH anymore. Pass.

The_Floridian
10-30-2005, 01:54 PM
Okay.

Let's just assume that all the best is true. Manny would DH. Manny would be a grinder. Manny would come here without us having to give up too much in the way of prospects. Manny would be a peach.

Here's my problem:

I think every supporter of getting Manny (of which I am definitely not one) agrees that Boston has to eat some of the contract. Fine.

Please answer the following questions:

1. How much is some?
2. Would Boston do that?
3. Why (as in, who would they be getting that would suddenly make them so generous?)
4. How much of his contract does that mean we have to take on?
5. Would we still be able to afford our raises to everyone who deserves them and re-sign Paulie?
6. And if not, who gets the shaft?
7. Can you give me, after answering all of these questions, an estimate of next year's payroll with Manny?

To me, all the other arguments (chemistry, DH, numbers, age) are meaningless. Until these questions are answered, all other discussion is moot.

Can any of you Manny supporters answer these questions? Not being snarky here. I'd honestly like to know.

Ol' No. 2
10-30-2005, 02:12 PM
Okay.

Let's just assume that all the best is true. Manny would DH. Manny would be a grinder. Manny would come here without us having to give up too much in the way of prospects. Manny would be a peach.

Here's my problem:

I think every supporter of getting Manny (of which I am definitely not one) agrees that Boston has to eat some of the contract. Fine.

Please answer the following questions:

1. How much is some?
2. Would Boston do that?
3. Why (as in, who would they be getting that would suddenly make them so generous?)
4. How much of his contract does that mean we have to take on?
5. Would we still be able to afford our raises to everyone who deserves them and re-sign Paulie?
6. And if not, who gets the shaft?
7. Can you give me, after answering all of these questions, an estimate of next year's payroll with Manny?

To me, all the other arguments (chemistry, DH, numbers, age) are meaningless. Until these questions are answered, all other discussion is moot.

Can any of you Manny supporters answer these questions? Not being snarky here. I'd honestly like to know.You left out a key one:

8. Who would we have to send to Boston in trade? If they're eating a lot of $$$, it's going to have to be somebody good. Likely pitching.

Stroker Ace
10-30-2005, 03:30 PM
I don't care how much he produces, I wouldn't want him on the Sox. On a team built on speed and defense, Manny would suck. Just imagine him trying to bunt or do something else that isn't selfish.

Banix12
10-30-2005, 03:34 PM
You left out a key one:

8. Who would we have to send to Boston in trade? If they're eating a lot of $$$, it's going to have to be somebody good. Likely pitching.

This is the biggest one. Boston has no need for any of our hitters, even if they don't have Manny. They need pitching. If it's a matter of acquiring Manny and keeping the pitching. I keep the pitching.

The only way this works out is probably as a three team trade, those are pretty tough to work out.

SouthSide_HitMen
10-30-2005, 04:09 PM
Based on the fact Manny is due over $22 million for a few more years there is a 0.0001% chance a deal to Chicago would get done. Boston is not desperate like the Cubs when they gave Sosa and over $10 mil for a few fill ins. It makes no sense for the White Sox to take on that type of salary nor would it make sense to give up the pitchers (Garland and or Beuhrle or one of the two and McCarthy and possibly some bullpen pitchers).

Players like A Rod and Manny have signed themselves into a great financial deal but YOU BETTER WANT TO STAY ON THAT TEAM because only four or five teams (Boston both New York teams and now Anaheim) are going to have the financial budget to pay them. Even the Yankees required financial concessions in the trade with Texas. Manny earns more per year than what Jerry Reinsdorf and partners paid for the club (inflation adjusted it would take Manny's 2004 & 2005 salaries to have bought the White Sox in 1981 assuming he didn't pay income tax). That is how out of whack these deals are and why for the past few years Boston has been unable to meet Manny's desire to be traded.

This is one of the most bizarre White Sox trade rumors ever. To give up the top shelf pitchers who won you a World Series to get a Konerko with a better average but terrible in the field and in the clubhouse who is three years older to boot. This sounds like something Levine pulled out of his ass.

antitwins13
10-30-2005, 04:21 PM
Allow me to play devil's advocate. What have we heard from the media this year:

"AJ is a clubhouse cancer."

"Frank is a clubhouse cancer, a prima donna, we gotta dump his salary type of guy. He hates Ozzie. Malcontent."

"Carl is an umpire-head-butting, dinosaur non-believing homophobe."

"Pods was a waste. Overrated"

"Bobby Jenks tried to set his hand on fire and hates Jews."

"Buehrle doesn't care about the team and wants to get on the Cards ASAP."


"Ozzie is one 13-game losing streak away from a shooting spree on Daley Plaza."

Now, after picking up or having kept all these fellows, do you really think Ramirez' 40+ HRs and 125+ RBIs is something you can turn away? Could he not be a grinder? I know, I know, he wants a ton of money and he is somewhat of a space cadet, but jeez, could we at least think about it if the money is reasonable? Is his outfield defense worse than watching Paulie go from first to second on a triple?


Correct analysis.

The_Floridian
10-30-2005, 04:30 PM
You left out a key one:

8. Who would we have to send to Boston in trade? If they're eating a lot of $$$, it's going to have to be somebody good. Likely pitching.

No I remembered, I just don't think I worded it well.

3. Why (as in, who would they be getting that would make them so generous?)

I agree, it would probably have to be good pitchers. But nobody has given me a realistic scenario for the trade yet based on those seven questions I asked. If they can do that, I'm willing to listen to a proposal. Like I said, I'm willing to assume the best about Manny as a person and as a player, but until someone can explain a financial plan to me based on the questions I asked, I think the idea of a trade for him is ludicrous.

TomBradley72
10-30-2005, 04:36 PM
Allow me to play devil's advocate. What have we heard from the media this year:

"AJ is a clubhouse cancer."

"Frank is a clubhouse cancer, a prima donna, we gotta dump his salary type of guy. He hates Ozzie. Malcontent."

"Carl is an umpire-head-butting, dinosaur non-believing homophobe."

"Pods was a waste. Overrated"

"Bobby Jenks tried to set his hand on fire and hates Jews."

"Buehrle doesn't care about the team and wants to get on the Cards ASAP."

"Ozzie is one 13-game losing streak away from a shooting spree on Daley Plaza."

Now, after picking up or having kept all these fellows, do you really think Ramirez' 40+ HRs and 125+ RBIs is something you can turn away? Could he not be a grinder? I know, I know, he wants a ton of money and he is somewhat of a space cadet, but jeez, could we at least think about it if the money is reasonable? Is his outfield defense worse than watching Paulie go from first to second on a triple?

In terms of the players you mention....and the chemistry/salary trade off...none of those players represent a huge salary in 2006...so are relatively "low risk" acquisitions. I've never heard that Buehrle was anything but a great teammate....and seems to earn his salary while with the White Sox...even if he eventually wants to play for his home town team. Even Ozzie is a bargain salary wise as far as managers go. Ramirez represents a pretty big chemistry risk along with a HUGE price tag = $20MM. As far as defense goes....with the number of fielding chances an LF faces over the course of a season...that has a much bigger potential impact on the team than the relatively fewer times when Konerko's lack of speed actually impacts the outcome of a game.

jabrch
10-30-2005, 06:01 PM
I don't care how much he produces, I wouldn't want him on the Sox. On a team built on speed and defense, Manny would suck. Just imagine him trying to bunt or do something else that isn't selfish.

Here's where I think "group-think" goes a little too far.

There is nowhere that Manny Ramirez would "suck". Why would you EVER ask Manny Ramirez to bunt? Same reason you'd never ask Frank Thomas to bunt. And if you do, I tell you the two would try and lay down a bunt. Manny is one of the best hitters in our generation.

I love what this team did this year - but lets not go overboard on the Grinderball thing. Let's not overlook the fact that it would be great to have a true #3 hitter who could go .300/.400/.600/40/125/125.

The only place Manny "sucks" is in the opposing dugout. When he is in your dugout, he is one of the best hitters in baseball.

jabrch
10-30-2005, 06:05 PM
To give up the top shelf pitchers who won you a World Series to get a Konerko with a better average but terrible in the field and in the clubhouse who is three years older to boot. This sounds like something Levine pulled out of his ass.

1) I don't see everyone talking about giving up our top of the rotation. In fact, I hardly see ANYONE EXECPT YOU saying that.

2) Nobody is saying we should get him to play the field - we are talking about a DH.

3) I have yet to see any evidence that he is terrible in the clubhouse. No more than Paulie, Frank, AJ, etc. In fact, I don't give a damn what the media thinks about him in the clubhouse. .300/.400/.600/40/125/125 would look great in the lineup.

California Sox
10-30-2005, 06:22 PM
Manny is certainly a great hitter, a hall of fame talent. But just as certainly he's a strange person. Who's to say if he got here he wouldn't demand a trade a month later? He has demanded and then rescinded demands to be traded EVERY YEAR he has been in Boston. Plus, he makes $20 mil a year. There's no way he can play right anymore and is barely adequate in left. Certainly if the Red Sox wanted to pay half his salary and take very little in return, we'd have to consider it, but I don't think Manny's in our future.

My prediction? If we are not able to resign Konerko, Kenny targets Aubrey Huff as his replacement. Huff's a player who has killed us in his career and I think Kenny's had his eye on him at the last couple trade deadlines.

The_Floridian
10-30-2005, 06:27 PM
jabrch,

You seem to be one of the largest supporters of bringing Manny, so I'm curious if you have any take on the questions I asked earlier in this thread (the seven money related ones).

Again, please remember that I am not saying anything about his ability, his willingness to be a grinder, his personality, or whether he would be a DH. I'm asking, assuming the best case scenario on all of those fronts, how you intend to pay for him, a question that renders all other questions moot until answered.

If you could please answer the questions I asked I'd be very interested. So far, no one has been willing/able to do this for me. I am, at the moment, opposed to having Manny, but I would be willing to have my mind changed.

If you (or anyone else who supports bringing Manny) could please break down those questions I asked, I would appreciate it.

BTW--It's post #51 on this thread.

antitwins13
10-30-2005, 06:38 PM
Has anyone considered the fact that maybe the reason Manny acts so weird is due to all the pressure being a Red Sox player intails? Playing on the east coast as a superstar is more pressure than any of us will realize in our lifetimes. I think that Manny will be able to relate to Ozzie and will find that Sox fans are great and would support him one hundred percent. I would just hope Manny wouldn't run into the outfield moat in between innings.

SouthSide_HitMen
10-30-2005, 07:23 PM
1) I don't see everyone talking about giving up our top of the rotation. In fact, I hardly see ANYONE EXECPT YOU saying that.

2) Nobody is saying we should get him to play the field - we are talking about a DH.

3) I have yet to see any evidence that he is terrible in the clubhouse. No more than Paulie, Frank, AJ, etc. In fact, I don't give a damn what the media thinks about him in the clubhouse. .300/.400/.600/40/125/125 would look great in the lineup.

$22 Million per season is close to 1/4th of the expected payroll next year. Do you think Boston is going to want Marte and Willie for him? What the hell are they going to want for their best / second best hitter? Widger and a prospect.

Lets get serious. Quote my whole post - the is more asinine than anything Levine ever came up with. Teams don't give away players for Ramirez for second tier players plus pay tens of millions of dollars to fit into our salary structure. More importantly teams like the Chicago White Sox with an $80 - $90 million payroll budget do not commit a fourth of it to any player unless he can start 30 games and hit 714 HRers - aka Babe Ruth - nor should they if they want to remain competitive.

I'd like to own the state of Florida. I'd like $100 billion dollars. People can concoct any ridiculous scheme or demand. I am dealing with reality. The White Sox will never obtain Ramirez and that is a great thing as the money and players required to obtain him are so outrageous and unnecessary as to barely warrant comment. I usually ignore threads like these as they are the equivalent of the idiots on sports talk radio giving us such nuggets as "The White Sox should trade Marte & Anderson for Santana and $40 million" or words of "wisdom" offered daily by Moronotti.

I guess I can expect ridiculous threads like this in the offseason and will probably ignore them in the future but I hope posters on this board retain a grasp of reality and common sense when discussing White Sox baseball this offseason.

The three key issues Kenny Williams will address in order are:

1. Paul Konerko
2. Jon Garland
3. Frank Thomas

After those three issues are resolved he will know what money he has left or what players he may trade. Until then speculation is nonsense and rumors such as Ramirez to Chicago are Cub like in their naivete.

The_Floridian
10-30-2005, 07:28 PM
$22 Million per season is close to 1/4th of the expected payroll next year. Do you think Boston is going to want Marte and Willie for him? What the hell are they going to want for their best / second best hitter? Widger and a prospect.

Lets get serious. Quote my whole post - the is more asinine than anything Levine ever came up with. Teams don't give away players for Ramirez for second tier players plus pay tens of millions of dollars to fit into our salary structure. More importantly teams like the Chicago White Sox with an $80 - $90 million payroll budget do not commit a fourth of it to any player unless he can start 30 games and hit 714 HRers - aka Babe Ruth - nor should they if they want to remain competitive.

I'd like to own the state of Florida. I'd like $100 billion dollars. People can concoct any ridiculous scheme or demand. I am dealing with reality. The White Sox will never obtain Ramirez and that is a great thing as the money and players required to obtain him are so outrageous and unnecessary as to barely warrant comment. I usually ignore threads like these as they are the equivalent of the idiots on sports talk radio giving us such nuggets as "The White Sox should trade Marte & Anderson for Santana and $40 million" or words of "wisdom" offered daily by Moronotti.

I guess I can expect ridiculous threads like this in the offseason and will probably ignore them in the future but I hope posters on this board retain a grasp of reality and common sense when discussing White Sox baseball this offseason.

The three key issues Kenny Williams will address in order are:

1. Paul Konerko
2. Jon Garland
3. Frank Thomas

After those three issues are resolved he will know what money he has left or what players he may trade. Until then speculation is nonsense and rumors such as Ramirez to Chicago are Cub like in their naivete.

Thank you for that. I've been trying to get someone to explain how this would work in a realistic model and nobody's taking the bait. I have a pretty good guess why.

Ol' No. 2
10-30-2005, 08:30 PM
$22 Million per season is close to 1/4th of the expected payroll next year. Do you think Boston is going to want Marte and Willie for him? What the hell are they going to want for their best / second best hitter? Widger and a prospect.

Lets get serious. Quote my whole post - the is more asinine than anything Levine ever came up with. Teams don't give away players for Ramirez for second tier players plus pay tens of millions of dollars to fit into our salary structure. More importantly teams like the Chicago White Sox with an $80 - $90 million payroll budget do not commit a fourth of it to any player unless he can start 30 games and hit 714 HRers - aka Babe Ruth - nor should they if they want to remain competitive.

I'd like to own the state of Florida. I'd like $100 billion dollars. People can concoct any ridiculous scheme or demand. I am dealing with reality. The White Sox will never obtain Ramirez and that is a great thing as the money and players required to obtain him are so outrageous and unnecessary as to barely warrant comment. I usually ignore threads like these as they are the equivalent of the idiots on sports talk radio giving us such nuggets as "The White Sox should trade Marte & Anderson for Santana and $40 million" or words of "wisdom" offered daily by Moronotti.

I guess I can expect ridiculous threads like this in the offseason and will probably ignore them in the future but I hope posters on this board retain a grasp of reality and common sense when discussing White Sox baseball this offseason.

The three key issues Kenny Williams will address in order are:

1. Paul Konerko
2. Jon Garland
3. Frank Thomas

After those three issues are resolved he will know what money he has left or what players he may trade. Until then speculation is nonsense and rumors such as Ramirez to Chicago are Cub like in their naivete.Not to mention that there's no reason in the world to believe he would change his long-standing insistance on playing the OF.

MadetoOrta
10-30-2005, 09:23 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Johan Santana ends up on the Sox when it's his turn for free agency. The people of Caracas would pressure him into it. Viva Venezuela!

samram
10-30-2005, 09:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Johan Santana ends up on the Sox when it's his turn for free agency. The people of Caracas would pressure him into it. Viva Venezuela!

I think he just signed a four year extension last season. He won't be a free agent until 2009.

As for Manny, I'll take him, but the deal has to work on a lot of levels. The money and talent has to work correctly. I would say Boston has to eat $4-$5 million a year, at least. As for what the Sox would give up, I can't even begin to think of what it would take, especially if Boston is picking up salary.

I wouldn't worry about his personality. This is already a team of diverse personalities. Furthermore, it's not as if Manny's quirks have precluded his teams from being successful. I think his teams only missed the playoffs from 2000-2002 and they've been to the World Series 3 times. Not to mention he's a teriffic clutch hitter.

Banix12
10-31-2005, 01:13 AM
$22 Million per season is close to 1/4th of the expected payroll next year. Do you think Boston is going to want Marte and Willie for him? What the hell are they going to want for their best / second best hitter? Widger and a prospect.

Lets get serious. Quote my whole post - the is more asinine than anything Levine ever came up with. Teams don't give away players for Ramirez for second tier players plus pay tens of millions of dollars to fit into our salary structure. More importantly teams like the Chicago White Sox with an $80 - $90 million payroll budget do not commit a fourth of it to any player unless he can start 30 games and hit 714 HRers - aka Babe Ruth - nor should they if they want to remain competitive.

I'd like to own the state of Florida. I'd like $100 billion dollars. People can concoct any ridiculous scheme or demand. I am dealing with reality. The White Sox will never obtain Ramirez and that is a great thing as the money and players required to obtain him are so outrageous and unnecessary as to barely warrant comment. I usually ignore threads like these as they are the equivalent of the idiots on sports talk radio giving us such nuggets as "The White Sox should trade Marte & Anderson for Santana and $40 million" or words of "wisdom" offered daily by Moronotti.

I guess I can expect ridiculous threads like this in the offseason and will probably ignore them in the future but I hope posters on this board retain a grasp of reality and common sense when discussing White Sox baseball this offseason.

The three key issues Kenny Williams will address in order are:

1. Paul Konerko
2. Jon Garland
3. Frank Thomas

After those three issues are resolved he will know what money he has left or what players he may trade. Until then speculation is nonsense and rumors such as Ramirez to Chicago are Cub like in their naivete.


Just beautiful, I couldn't have said it better.

This situation isn't like the Cubs ditching Sosa where they were happy to take back essentially a bag of balls and the player's whole salary in exchange just to get rid of Sosa (Orioles still got ripped off). The Red Sox will keep him if they have to.

Just guessing from what the rumors have been about past Manny trades, the trade the Red Sox would ask for might be something similar to this...

Jermaine Dye
Brandon McCarthy
Low level Minor leaguers

In Exchange for

Manny Ramirez
Cash
a throw in minor leaguer

That's just my feeling on what would be the level of talent they would be asking for judging from past attempts where they seem to want at least a decent replacement OF and the best young pitching prospect in the system.

If Manny is coming to Chicago I for some reason think it would be far more likely that he end up on the other side of town. The Cubs have the money and are probably willing to trade just about anybody other than Prior, Zambrano, and Lee.

I don't forsee the white sox making any big flashy trades this offseason, most of the moves are going to be of the Aaron Miles for Juan Uribe style or Bobby Jenks off waivers style.

BRDSR
10-31-2005, 10:23 AM
Manny is not a cancer!

Maybe not, but thinking about him on the White Sox kind of makes me wish I had cancer.

He's bush league. I don't want any player on the White Sox who takes off his batting gloves while watching a home run. Not to mention, if the Sox can't pony up the money for Konerko, where are they going to come up with Manny money? And he's not a free agent. He wants to be traded. Who do we trade for him?

gobears1987
10-31-2005, 10:34 AM
Just beautiful, I couldn't have said it better.

This situation isn't like the Cubs ditching Sosa where they were happy to take back essentially a bag of balls and the player's whole salary in exchange just to get rid of Sosa (Orioles still got ripped off). The Red Sox will keep him if they have to.

Just guessing from what the rumors have been about past Manny trades, the trade the Red Sox would ask for might be something similar to this...

Jermaine Dye
Brandon McCarthy
Low level Minor leaguers

In Exchange for

Manny Ramirez
Cash
a throw in minor leaguer
No way KW pulls the trigger on that. He wants this team to be pitching and defense. Manny is against everything KW and Ozzie want in this team.

itsnotrequired
10-31-2005, 10:52 AM
I can't believe this "idea" is still being discussed. Core elements of this year's team will have to be blown up to get Manny in a Sox uniform. And for what? Not worth the money. KW needs to lock up Konerko, give raises through arbitration to Cotts, Crede, Garland and maybe AJ and pick up the CO for Politte. Get some more bullpen help and another lefty bat. Biggest issue will be the whole Thomas/Everett situation.

I see no need for big, flashy trades/aquisitions this off-season.

VenturaSoxFan23
10-31-2005, 01:10 PM
Tell Manny he has to DH and get his hair done like Geoff Blum, then we'll see if he wants to come on down.

kkappelk
11-01-2005, 10:25 AM
I realize this entire thread is a stupid fantasyland discussion (don't ask me why I read the entire thing and am now posting). But people....please stop making comments like "why would you pay Manny a ton of money but not Konerko?"

Comparing Manny to Konerko should in no way be part of this discussion. I love PK just a much as everyone else, but he isn't EVEN CLOSE to Manny in terms of talent at the plate. Manny is going to go down in history as one of the best hitters EVER. You over pay for his kind of talent, not Konkero.

Fire away...

PaulDrake
11-01-2005, 11:39 AM
Uh, I hope not. Me too. What a first class jerk. I was hoping that the 2005 White Sox would point the way to a new day in professional sports. You know, team play and egos on the back burner.

Tekijawa
11-01-2005, 12:20 PM
I think he just signed a four year extension last season. He won't be a free agent until 2009.

Perfect that's when Manny team options will kick in, all we do is set him free and go after Santana! This couldn't work out any better!