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View Full Version : Dodgers could fire GM DePodesta


ChiSox14305635
10-29-2005, 02:12 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524

The FOBB must be thrilled.:D:

FarWestChicago
10-29-2005, 02:15 PM
DePodesta is a disaster area. He needs to be put out of his own misery.

Mohoney
10-29-2005, 02:49 PM
Just great. One team with BALANCE and TEAM-FIRST PLAYERS wins the World Series, and all hell breaks loose. Now the other 29 teams must try to come to grips with the fact that REAL baseball TEAMS, not collections of juiced-up stat-mongering individuals that happen to wear the same uniform, deserve to win.

RKMeibalane
10-29-2005, 02:52 PM
I'm waiting for jeremyb1 to come here and make excuses.

Mr. White Sox
10-29-2005, 03:53 PM
AWW. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524)

I don't think he did such an awful job, personally. Trading LoDuca wasn't a great idea, but if Odalis Perez, Gagne, JD Drew, Milton Bradley and others were healthy, they take the NL West without a problem. Injuries completely destroyed the team, which, I guess, is something a GM could be blamed for. His acquisitions, aside from the Manos pickup, were somewhat successful (Jeff Kent, Derek Lowe)
(http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524)

SoxSpeed22
10-29-2005, 04:07 PM
:fobbgod:
"I taught him better than this! You don't pay often injured players a ton of money and wait 3-4 years for them to deliver results. Baseball doesn't work by upside!"

RKMeibalane
10-29-2005, 04:10 PM
AWW. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524)

I don't think he did such an awful job, personally. Trading LoDuca wasn't a great idea, but if Odalis Perez, Gagne, JD Drew, Milton Bradley and others were healthy, they take the NL West without a problem. Injuries completely destroyed the team, which, I guess, is something a GM could be blamed for. His acquisitions, aside from the Manos pickup, were somewhat successful (Jeff Kent, Derek Lowe)


I agree. The real problem with the Dodgers is their ownership. McCourt is hackjob. Whomever replaces DePodesta is going to have his work cut out for him. Not only must the new GM overhaul the roster, but he must also find a new manager to replace Jim Tracy.

Tragg
10-29-2005, 04:19 PM
AWW. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524)

I don't think he did such an awful job, personally. Trading LoDuca wasn't a great idea, but if Odalis Perez, Gagne, JD Drew, Milton Bradley and others were healthy, they take the NL West without a problem. Injuries completely destroyed the team, which, I guess, is something a GM could be blamed for. His acquisitions, aside from the Manos pickup, were somewhat successful (Jeff Kent, Derek Lowe)

That was a strange trade in midseason 2004, although he got a starting pitcher.
JD Drew is a walking injury - I think the GM can be blamed for picking him up.
Paying Valentine $3.5 mill a year is dubious.
$9 million for the FOBBs' favorite pitcher, Jeff weaver, is more than dubious.
having bradley and, even worse, jeff kent, on your team, ensures no "chemistry".
Can't say he's anything special.

And I'm sure our victory has caused the chain around the necks of the non-performing moneyball GMs to shrink by a link or two.

Banix12
10-29-2005, 04:44 PM
I agree that the team should have been better this season than it showed and the owner seemed to cause part of the trouble. However it was troubling that he has alienated the fans with moves like trading Lo Duca. He so far hasn't looked any better than an average GM. It looks mostly like he just has shown a failure to be an effective administrator, he might be better suited in a supporting role. Though I bet he gets another opprotunity somewhere, maybe Tampa.

SABRSox
10-29-2005, 05:09 PM
The name being floated around out here in LA for replacement is Dennis Gilbert, Special Assistant to Jerry Reinsdorf.

It would be an invaluable loss to the White Sox organization if that happened, but it's a great opportunity for him if it happens. As I understand, he's a huge Dodger fan and a season ticket holder.

munchman33
10-29-2005, 05:28 PM
Depodesta offically fired now.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524

Jerome
10-29-2005, 06:33 PM
AWW. (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524)

I don't think he did such an awful job, personally. Trading LoDuca wasn't a great idea, but if Odalis Perez, Gagne, JD Drew, Milton Bradley and others were healthy, they take the NL West without a problem. Injuries completely destroyed the team, which, I guess, is something a GM could be blamed for. His acquisitions, aside from the Manos pickup, were somewhat successful (Jeff Kent, Derek Lowe)
(http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2207524)


I agree, I thought after his first year the Dodgers were headed for good times. Perez, Weaver, and Lowe were quite disappointing, he can be blamed for that. On paper, Penny, Lowe, Perez and Weaver look pretty solid but they got injured and underachieved. The Gagne injury hurt big time too, it severly hurt bullpen depth by making Brazoban or whatever his name is the closer.

If Milton Bradley doesn't get injured / go crazy he's a pretty good player, and JD Drew continues to perpetually disappoint. Lowe and Drew were hyped up in that article about signing good players in the steroid-free era, but whatever. If you can't stay healty it doesn't matter.

Banix12
10-29-2005, 06:49 PM
If Milton Bradley doesn't get injured / go crazy he's a pretty good player, and JD Drew continues to perpetually disappoint. Lowe and Drew were hyped up in that article about signing good players in the steroid-free era, but whatever. If you can't stay healty it doesn't matter.

I think part of the knock on DePodesta, whether it is fair or not, was that he really ignored the personalties of the people he was putting on the team and paid too much attention to stats. Sticking Milton Bradley and Jeff Kent together on the same team probably wasn't the smartest idea. JD Drew is another one of those guys who has that rep of being lazy and resting on his talent even though if he tried he could be a hall of famer.

That team was reportedly a bit out of control in the clubhouse last year and firing Tracy didn't help. I think they wanted to blame the architect.

The fact that this happened during the middle of the search for the manager though makes me think this may be a more recent development. If they wanted to blame him for last season he probably would have been fired before the manager search started. Instead I think he was involved in the interviews of the first few candidates. Maybe some candidates didn't want to work with him?

The_Floridian
10-29-2005, 08:41 PM
Maybe there was a mutiny afoot, but DePodesta brought this upon himself. He had a solid team at the halfway point last year that was poised to make a serious run in October. Then he deals LoDuca, the heart of the team IMO, and Mota, who helped Gagne turn every game into a seven inning affair, for Brad Penny, a starting pitcher--the LAST thing the Dodgers needed.

I've been kind of stunned at what DePodesta managed to get away with in the last 15 months. I see that trade as the beginning of the Dodgers downslide. Then he lets Beltre and Green walk and replaces them with Drew and Manos. Ouch.

Here were the Angels, muscling in on their territory, starting to take away their fan base. They manage to put tgoether a winner and DePodesta pulls the rug out from under them using Moneyball tactics to justify it. Tracy probably did get the players thinking the architect was to blame, as an earlier poster said. But what do you expect? DePodesta never wanted Tracy as his manager, but he was stuck with him because the guy actually had the nerve to win. Now, he's lost a solid manager and the core of a team that was a serious contender less than a year and a half ago. The Angels are starting to take over the town, and the Dodgers are still a few months of chaos away from even beginning a rebuilding process.

I don't think I've seen one person ruin a good ball club this fast since Wayne Huizenga. About time they fired him. The first step is admitting you have a problem.

FarWestChicago
10-29-2005, 10:10 PM
Maybe there was a mutiny afoot, but DePodesta brought this upon himself. He had a solid team at the halfway point last year that was poised to make a serious run in October. Then he deals LoDuca, the heart of the team IMO, and Mota, who helped Gagne turn every game into a seven inning affair, for Brad Penny, a starting pitcher--the LAST thing the Dodgers needed.

I've been kind of stunned at what DePodesta managed to get away with in the last 15 months. I see that trade as the beginning of the Dodgers downslide. Then he lets Beltre and Green walk and replaces them with Drew and Manos. Ouch.

Here were the Angels, muscling in on their territory, starting to take away their fan base. They manage to put tgoether a winner and DePodesta pulls the rug out from under them using Moneyball tactics to justify it. Tracy probably did get the players thinking the architect was to blame, as an earlier poster said. But what do you expect? DePodesta never wanted Tracy as his manager, but he was stuck with him because the guy actually had the nerve to win. Now, he's lost a solid manager and the core of a team that was a serious contender less than a year and a half ago. The Angels are starting to take over the town, and the Dodgers are still a few months of chaos away from even beginning a rebuilding process.

I don't think I've seen one person ruin a good ball club this fast since Wayne Huizenga. About time they fired him. The first step is admitting you have a problem.Well put. The FOBB's just can't see what really happened. They are too busy spinning things tyring to save the rapidly plunging reputation of "Moneyball".

:fobbgod:

My minions will go down with my ship!

Banix12
10-29-2005, 10:40 PM
Well put. The FOBB's just can't see what really happened. They are too busy spinning things tyring to save the rapidly plunging reputation of "Moneyball".

:fobbgod:

My minions will go down with my ship!

I've been kind of disturbed how the stat geeks have been taking this as a personal insult. As if any General Manager who followed Sabremetrics can't be a bad GM. The job is way more complex than just picking players off a computer. Maybe he just didn't do the job well, just accept it.

If you want a laugh, go to that sons of sam horn site, the BoSox fans are absolutely livid over this.

Also, a tad off subject, but this got me thinking about looking at that moneyball draft again and how it was supposed to be targeting undervalued players. Certainly it has been somewhat a success for them because they got Blanton and Swisher. However as I recall those two players were likely to be #1 draft picks anyway, even without the computer. Teahen seems so far to be the only undervalued find.

RKMeibalane
10-29-2005, 11:29 PM
Well put. The FOBB's just can't see what really happened. They are too busy spinning things tyring to save the rapidly plunging reputation of "Moneyball".

:fobbgod:

My minions will go down with my ship!

I wonder what jeremy thinks about all of this. As I mentioned earlier, I'm waiting for him to come here and make excuses.

Tragg
10-30-2005, 12:17 AM
If you want a laugh, go to that sons of sam horn site, the BoSox fans are absolutely livid over this.

I didn't realize that Boston was a money-ball team. Congrats to Theo - he represents the sum total of moneyball's playoff success (with a major assist from Duquette - we see what happened when moneyball had a year to work its magic in Boston).

That site's pretty funny - one poster confessed that he was only on page 240 of moneyball (geeze, there are more than 240 pages of that drivel) and wondered why only 2 of those great undervalued draft choices had developed into anything.

Another pointed out that if moneyball indeed becomes less popular, that will just increase the value of the moneyball approach, as more teams will want more players like Scott Podsenik instead of real beane style players like JD Drew: all stats, no heart.

Another poster pointed out that maybe there isn't just one winning approach and if the Dodgers hire Herschiser for GM that he may, indeed become the next billy beane - who knows?

Banix12
10-30-2005, 12:47 AM
Another poster pointed out that maybe there isn't just one winning approach and if the Dodgers hire Herschiser for GM that he may, indeed become the next billy beane - who knows?

You know, that could very well happen. Herschiser has shown as a pitching coach that he is really open to trying new things and researching the best methods to go about pitching and training. He would probably be the same way as a GM. Whether he follows the Sabremetric approach, traditional scouting, or a combo I think he would be open to all sorts of approaches just to find what works.

Daver
10-30-2005, 12:57 AM
I wonder what jeremy thinks about all of this. As I mentioned earlier, I'm waiting for him to come here and make excuses.

Don't hold your breath waiting.

Tragg
10-30-2005, 01:17 AM
My favorite was the guy who posted his disgust with the Sox for trading D'Angelo Jiminez for weeks after we dumped him.

TheOldRoman
10-30-2005, 01:45 AM
Then he lets Beltre and Green walk and replaces them with Drew and Manos. Ouch.

I agree with you on everything except letting Beltre walk. Beltre's 2004 was a huge fluke. Most people knew he wouldn't come close to that production in 05, and he didn't. He would be worth it for the right price, but he was asking for a ridiculous amount of money. It was a good move to let him walk.

Banix12
10-30-2005, 02:24 AM
My favorite was the guy who posted his disgust with the Sox for trading D'Angelo Jiminez for weeks after we dumped him.

I love guys like that, every team has that fan who goes looking around for "undervalued players" and inevitiably they stumble upon D'Angelo Jimenez. They get real confused. They look at his stats and just think, "How could they give up on a guy with that .OBP and that power potential at second base? Why can't we pick him up?"

Then inevitably some team picks him up and the fans of that team that were clamoring to get him suddenly figure it out. "Oh, That's why he's been on 4 teams in six years. He's the laziest player I've ever seen!"

Tragg
10-30-2005, 07:51 AM
The strangest thing about the Dodgers is that Darren Dreifort is making 13 Mill+ a year and he's been making at least 9Mill since 2001.
And I ask, who the hell is Darren Dreifort?
The Dodgers signed him to that contract after seasons of 13-13 and 12-9 with ERAs above 4.
Of course he's been hurt, but even if healthy, how is that man worth $6 mill much less 13M?
I think he had to let Beltre walk, Manos wasn't a good choice to replace, Drew was risky and Green was a pretty good player that stats geeks don't like. Choi is terrible for 1B unless you have some sluggers at other positions, which the Dodgers don't (It would be like us having a 15HR guy at 1B - big mistake). But what he didn't do was give enough support to his staff; his pen was weak and his rotation looked okay on paper, but thin, thin.

The_Floridian
10-30-2005, 09:27 AM
I agree with you on everything except letting Beltre walk. Beltre's 2004 was a huge fluke. Most people knew he wouldn't come close to that production in 05, and he didn't. He would be worth it for the right price, but he was asking for a ridiculous amount of money. It was a good move to let him walk.

You're probably right, but I think Beltre's year demonstrates that something was right with the system, and with the manager running it. DePodesta wanted a manager who thought like him, and he wanted a team that reflected his own ideas, even though he'd inherited a winner.

What the Moneyball geeks (and McCourt) didn't recognize last year was that the Dodgers were not DePodesta's team. They were Dan Evans's team, and DePodesta was lucky enough to inherit them. McCourt is taking some heat now for the decision to change GM's (as well he should), but DePodesta deserves most of the blame. He had a winner on his hands and he couldn't accept that, because they were winning in spite of violating a formula he believed in. He wanted this to be his team so bad that he was willing to ignore his manager and break up a winner for the sake of a blueprint that he was convinced would work, even though clear evidence that there might be a better way to do things was right in front of his face.

I remember reading about people's reactions to Gallileo's theory that all objects fall at the same rate of speed, which was in violation of the accepted theories of Aristotle. So, Gallileo dropped a grape and an orange from the same height and they landed at the same time, thus proving him right. The onlookers' reactions? One is reported to have said something to the effect of, "You make your point so effectively that if Aristotle had not said otherwise, I would believe you."

DePodesta's fatal flaw as an executive was that he believed the application of the theory was less important than the theory itself. That DePodesta recieved an economics degree should surprise no one. This is a numbers guy. And like many numbers guys, he doesn't undertand that while numbers can help make the decisions, they can only go so far when human beings are involved. This guy wrecked the first real winner the Dodgers have had in 15 years, and at the worst possible time, too. Hear that rumbling, Mr. McCourt? That's the LA Angels. And they aren't going away.

jabrch
10-30-2005, 11:32 AM
It is a sad day for Proellerhead Nation. To me, this just validates the need to have baseball people running baseball teams. Leave propellerheads to running propellers.

KW may not be able to tell you what a players DIPS/VORP - EQA * ass/armpits ratio is, but he has had more success than any Moneyball team has, with the exception of the one Moneyball team that spends 150mm per year, nearly twice what KW has, who he swept in three games this year.

There is very little Moneyball about the Red Sox. They just spend out their ass, same as the Yanks.

Brian26
10-30-2005, 11:38 AM
DePodesta is a disaster area. He needs to be put out of his own misery.

He should have been fired on the spot last year after making that LoDuca trade. That's one of the most lopsided trades in the past 10 years, even before the injury to Penny.

FarWestChicago
10-30-2005, 11:42 AM
He should have been fired on the spot last year after making that LoDuca trade. That's one of the most lopsided trades in the past 10 years, even before the injury to Penny.My Dodger fan employee will never forgive Beane Jr. for that. He's going to be a happy man at work tomorrow. :cool:

jabrch
10-30-2005, 11:53 AM
My Dodger fan employee will never forgive Beane Jr. for that. He's going to be a happy man at work tomorrow. :cool:

The funny thing is that even in hindsight, Propellerhead Nation still keeps saying that was a good trade. They should have never fired Dan Evans. Where is Evans these days?

FarWestChicago
10-30-2005, 12:16 PM
The funny thing is that even in hindsight, Propellerhead Nation still keeps saying that was a good trade.Well PN have never been ones to let facts get in the way of a crappy theory. :redneck

Tragg
10-30-2005, 01:05 PM
He should have been fired on the spot last year after making that LoDuca trade. That's one of the most lopsided trades in the past 10 years, even before the injury to Penny.

Penny is a legitimate ML starter. LoDuca is beloved by the media, but really isn't much. Choi isn't much either, but the only thing either team really got was the ML starter, Penny. That was one of the few moves I thought was good, although the timing may have not been the best.

We sent a catcher and 2 prospects for a legitimate ML starter ourselves that summer. You've got to pay for them.

johnny_mostil
10-30-2005, 02:17 PM
DePodesta wanted a manager who thought like him, and he wanted a team that reflected his own ideas, even though he'd inherited a winner.

Gerry Fraley in the Dallas News this morning writes (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/columnists/baseball/stories/103005dnspofraley.c1d9db7.html) that DePodesta ticked off Tommy Lasorda, which, in LA, is tugging on Superman's cape...
"The firing of general manager Paul DePodesta on Saturday indicates former manager Tom Lasorda has won a power struggle within the Los Angeles Dodgers' organization.

"Lasorda was frozen out by DePodesta, who is said to be great with numbers but hapless at dealing with people. Lasorda, listed as special advisor to the chairman, pushed back and won over owner Frank McCourt."

Banix12
10-30-2005, 03:37 PM
I think if you look at the contract for JD Drew you can find a legit reason for why he isn't a very good GM.

JD Drew was signed for 9 million in 2005, he receives 11 million a year from 2006-2009. All pretty normal for a contract, however DePodesta gave JD Drew an option to opt out of his contract after 2006 and apply for free agency.

That means that if JD Drew has a huge year next year and his value rises to the point that he might be worth more than 11 million a year, he can just dump the Dodgers and move on. Or conversely, if JD has a god awful year he can just stick around at 11 million a year. Why is that option in there if it can only hurt the Dodgers?

Seriously, how bad has Scott Boras robbed the Dodgers over the last few years. He got DePo to agree to this JD Drew Contract and got $9 million+ a year for Derrek Lowe.

The_Floridian
10-30-2005, 04:23 PM
Gerry Fraley in the Dallas News this morning writes (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/columnists/baseball/stories/103005dnspofraley.c1d9db7.html) that DePodesta ticked off Tommy Lasorda, which, in LA, is tugging on Superman's cape...

One could also argue it is like spitting into the wind, pulling the mask off the old Lone Ranger, or, in some circles, messing around with Jim.
:tongue:

MRKARNO
10-30-2005, 11:36 PM
DePo's methods may be questionable and some of his moves were as well, but he did not really get a chance. If you fire Kenny WIlliams in 2002 after the same amount of time that Depodesta got, his track record would look just as disasterous. I'm not saying that Depodesta would have necessarily done as well as Kenny Williams in five years, but this franchise desperately needs some stability and some direction and the firing of Depodesta causes only instability and it shows a lack of direction. If you're going to put a GM in place, you've got to give them 3-4 years at the absolute minimum. Change for change's sake is almost worse than sticking with a bad GM for 3-4 years at minimum. The Dodgers better be prepared to pick a GM that they are really committed to, before they become a laughingstock.

FarWestChicago
10-31-2005, 12:26 AM
DePo's methods may be questionable and some of his moves were as well, but he did not really get a chance. If you fire Kenny WIlliams in 2002 after the same amount of time that Depodesta got, his track record would look just as disasterous. I'm not saying that Depodesta would have necessarily done as well as Kenny Williams in five years, but this franchise desperately needs some stability and some direction and the firing of Depodesta causes only instability and it shows a lack of direction. If you're going to put a GM in place, you've got to give them 3-4 years at the absolute minimum. Change for change's sake is almost worse than sticking with a bad GM for 3-4 years at minimum. The Dodgers better be prepared to pick a GM that they are really committed to, before they become a laughingstock.Or you can realize you made a huge mistake hiring a FOBB and fire his ass so you can get your organization back on track sooner rather than later. :redneck

The_Floridian
11-02-2005, 08:34 PM
L.A. proved too much for the man.
(Too much for the man.)
He couldn't take it.
So he's leaving the life he's come to know.

He said he's leaving. (Leaving)
Going back to find (ooh ooh ooh) what's left of his world.
A world he left behind not so long ago.

He's leaving. (leaving) On a midnight train to Georgia. (Leaving on a midnight train)
Said he's going back to find...
To a simpler place in time.

And I'll be with him. (I know you will)
On that midnight train to Georgia.
(leaving on a midnight train to Georgia!)
(WOO WOO!!!)

:redneck