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View Full Version : Sox-Cubs Dynamic will Never be the Same


elrod
10-29-2005, 06:23 AM
For years and years, the two Chicago teams have appealed to their fanbases by referencing off-field phenomena. For us, it's our knowledgeable, committed, hard-core fans who actually watch the game, and who proudly defend the South Side of Chicago. For the Cubs, it's the Wrigley Experience and all that it entails. With the exception of a few mystical choke jobs, the on-field antics of either team have been almost irrelevant to the whole rivalry. Nobody could say, "Yeah, but we had so-and-so and you guys didn't", because it never brought a winner. Well, all that has changed. The White Sox have permanently changed the Sox-Cubs dynamic in this town by being the first team to bring home a World Series championship. The Cub fans can still go on about Wrigley, but now they have to compete with what went on ON the field: a White Sox championship. And if early indications are accurate, there is already a sea change in attitudes among the large casual fan base. Up here in Evanston, kids who wore Cubbie blue for years are now sporting Sox hats and jerseys. And these kids are at their prime team-choosing years, so there's a good chance the transformation is permanent. Cars are flying Sox flags, meaning the die-hard among us up here are no longer ashamed. The true Cub fans (not the Wrigley fans) are looking at this whole thing and thinking, "Now we HAVE to get ours, because if we don't, we deserve to be the second team in this city." All of this will sink in gradually, but suffice it to say that the old Sox-Cubs dynamic will never be the same.

Fredsox
10-29-2005, 07:36 AM
I think that the change in the fan base dynamic is largely true, part of that will be due to an actual shift in the fan base.

Firstly, let's be fair: there are many cub fans who are real baseball fans who follow the game and root for their team accordingly. Those people will stay with their team and defend it or apologize for it as best they can.

Many of those cub fans that we refer to as lemmings will begin to gravitate to the White Sox. They don't care about the game, they just think its easier to associate themselves with a winner than a loser. A lot of the negative stereotypes about Comiskey Park have been quashed (not safe, not comfortable, not easy to get to, etc.) during this season. I doubt we will turn into a sports bar, but we WILL see some of that next year.

I agree that this is a great time to be influencing young people. Wearing White Sox gear is no longer unusual. Gone (sadly) is the feeling that if you wear a White Sox shirt or hat that you are flipping off the rest of the baseball world. We have moved into the mainstream for all the good and bad that brings.

downstairs
10-29-2005, 09:47 AM
I honestly think (and I've said it for years) that we're going to have to be a winning, playoff team for a few years to really change anything.

If 2005 brings a World Series trophy, and 2006, 2007 at least bring playoffs... and the Flubs do nothing... this town is a Sox town.

If we pull a 1984 Sox or 1986-87 Bears... things will return to normal.

Sorry, its just what I believe.

Brewski
10-29-2005, 11:04 AM
When we went to the black/silver/white in the 80's our merchandise predominated. It's cyclical. The only Cubby stuf I've seen around here for a month was worn by some of the residents at a center for developmentally disabled adults nearby.

cheeses_h_rice
10-29-2005, 02:57 PM
I think things will start to change. It was just a beautiful thing seeing all those thousands of young kids proudly wearing their Sox stuff yesterday and watching a World Series parade and rally for an actual Chicago championship team.

I think you'll start to see a shift away from the glorification of losing in this city. And I think we all know what team that will hurt more.

MarySwiss
10-29-2005, 03:11 PM
I think things already had started to change a little bit as a result of that 2003 debacle. This is just my impression, but it seems to me that many Cub fans have become a little less patient, less content with losing all the time.

Now, with the Sox winning the whole thing, that may be the final straw for those fans. I agree that the diehard fans will stick with their team--I sure as hell would have if (God forbid!) the shoe was on the other foot--but I never really bought the theory that there were all that many of those around anyway.

The next few years should be really interesting!

Fenway
10-29-2005, 03:16 PM
I think this win will at least put the base in the city at 60-40 Flubs

The Flubbies will still get the downstate fans, Iowa and the tourists.

My Cubs friends are furious at the kool-aid the Tribune has been feeding the fans and are fed up.

But yes the fanbase 20 years from now may reflect how todays kids view what happened.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2005, 03:18 PM
I think things already had started to change a little bit as a result of that 2003 debacle. This is just my impression, but it seems to me that many Cub fans have become a little less patient, less content with losing all the time.

Now, with the Sox winning the whole thing, that may be the final straw for those fans. I agree that the diehard fans will stick with their team--I sure as hell would have if (God forbid!) the shoe was on the other foot--but I never really bought the theory that there were all that many of those around anyway.

The next few years should be really interesting!There are plenty of real, knowledgable Cubs fans around. They just get overwhelmed by the doofuses that go to Wrigley just to be seen. I'd expect the real fans to be first in line at Tribune tower with torches and pitchforks. The real Cubs fans know that the annual attendance trophy is their worst enemy. I actually feel bad for them. As long as the Tribune Co. can put garbage on the field and still fill the park, they have no hope.

DumpJerry
10-29-2005, 03:24 PM
My friends with kids on the North Shore where eveyone bled Cubbie Blue are reporting that all the schoolkids now swear allegiance with the Good Guys. I was with one friend's 12 year old yesterday (Wilmette-based) and she told me that the principle of her school is a Sox fan and said the Sox fans can watch "Harry Potter" while Cub fans had to watch "Monsters, Inc." "Monsters" is more age-appropriate for younger kids or adults, so "Potter" is clearly a reward.

Not only is it the winning that is bringing people to Forces of Light, but the personalities as well. The last few years have seen the Cub players and Baker present themselves as whiny, complaining self-centered goons while the Sox players seem to be very excited about playing Major League Baseball and could not care if they can play their boombox or get more interviews than the next guy, etc.....

I feel I no longer have to respond to the *manure* Cub fans are still giving me about attendance, the ballpark, World Series ratings, umpire calls, etc. by repeating the mantra "we won the World Series." Works every time.:D:

MadetoOrta
10-29-2005, 03:36 PM
I'm new to this incredible site so bear with me. I am sick and tired of this "Cubs town" "60/40 Cubs" crap being spewed. It's simply false. There is a huge Sox fandom that is now getting its due. That said, things will change. We are World Champs! It's that simple. We're the best team in the world and there's nothing the cubune can do about it. I suspect their fans will not be quite as obnoxious next summer at the Cell. We'll see. I wonder how those idiots who spent $ on Red Sox, Angels and finally Astros hats feel today? Who cares? We won.:bandance:

TomBradley72
10-29-2005, 03:38 PM
We'll start to pick up a bit of the tourist business now....people will want to see the ballpark they saw on TV during the post season...say they saw the scoreboard explode after a home run....sing the fight song, etc. We won't match the Wrigley dynamic....but we'll get some lift.

Hitmen77
10-29-2005, 03:45 PM
I think this is a great time for the Sox to grab a larger slice of the Chicago fanbase - and I mean more than just the bandwagoners who are only here for the World Series celebration.

In the past, the Sox have seen their market share plummet once they started having losing seasons again, but now we have a renovated ballpark that people like - with amenities popular with young fans who we need to recruit. Also, the neighborhood around the Cell is improving and will become less and less of an "issue" in terms of drawing fans in the coming years.

Now, if the Sox can stay away from the bonehead PR moves they have made in the past to chase away fans (white flag trade, alleged leaders in '94 strike, etc.), I think they can finally take a larger slice of the Chicago market away from the Losers.

Palehose13
10-29-2005, 03:46 PM
Things are starting to change and there are 2 different reasons why:
The World Championship, of course, will bring in the casual fan...the "I'm for Chicago fan." However, the most significant to me is the make up of both teams. The cubs are no longer "lovable losers". They are whiney, cry babies. I have had several die hard cub fans tell me that it is really hard to like their team this year. I don't see that changing. The alternative, of course, is the Sox who are the complete opposite and a selfless team.

Ol' No. 2
10-29-2005, 03:48 PM
I think this is a great time for the Sox to grab a larger slice of the Chicago fanbase - and I mean more than just the bandwagoners who are only here for the World Series celebration.

In the past, the Sox have seen their market share plummet once they started having losing seasons again, but now we have a renovated ballpark that people like - with amenities popular with young fans who we need to recruit. Also, the neighborhood around the Cell is improving and will become less and less of an "issue" in terms of drawing fans in the coming years.

Now, if the Sox can stay away from the bonehead PR moves they have made in the past to chase away fans (white flag trade, alleged leaders in '94 strike, etc.), I think they can finally take a larger slice of the Chicago market away from the Losers.:gallas If you need any marketing help, I'm available.

VenturaSoxFan23
10-29-2005, 04:01 PM
There are plenty of real, knowledgable Cubs fans around. They just get overwhelmed by the doofuses that go to Wrigley just to be seen. I'd expect the real fans to be first in line at Tribune tower with torches and pitchforks. The real Cubs fans know that the annual attendance trophy is their worst enemy. I actually feel bad for them. As long as the Tribune Co. can put garbage on the field and still fill the park, they have no hope.

This is the definitive quote of the thread. Long-time, honest-to-goodness Cub fans are disgusted by the product they put on the field year after year. Coach who does nothing but sit there when his pitchers are getting hammered; he's too worried about a pitch count than the score. You have a player who goes 4-for-4 in the previous evening's game, so you stick him on the bench for two weeks. The minor leagues are more for rehabbing the current major league roster than developing any up-and-coming players, so they have to resort to blockbuster trades for injury-prone stars to keep on the radar.

The only way things will change is if those tourists stay away and they're back to the 1982 Lee Elia years of drawing 3500 a game.

Hitmen77
10-29-2005, 04:16 PM
:gallas If you need any marketing help, I'm available.

Funny you should mention him because I was thinking the other day about how the "stars aligned" such that Brooks Boyer's first full year on the job replacing this bozo is also the year that they won it all.

Of course, I don't mean that Brooks is responsible for the product on the field, but it seems like great timing to have a great marketing guy in charge just as the Sox win it all. Wow, even Jerry Reinsdorf's image has done a dramatic 180 turn during this championship drive.

Way to go White Sox! :)

antitwins13
10-29-2005, 06:32 PM
I don't think anything is going to change. The Cubs will be the Cubs and the Sox will be the Sox. People have a short term memory in this town.

MarySwiss
10-29-2005, 07:14 PM
I don't think anything is going to change. The Cubs will be the Cubs and the Sox will be the Sox. People have a short term memory in this town.

Sox fans MOST ASSUREDLY do not have a short memory. I remember, for instance, watching Ron Kittle pull off a suicide squeeze back in 1983. I was sitting in the reserved seats along the third base line at Old Comiskey when I saw Kittle break for the plate. I even jumped up and yelled for him to "Go back!" because I didn't know what was happening. I can see it now as clearly as ever. And I hope you remember details from this magical season just as vividly 22 years from now. :smile:

Dan Mega
10-29-2005, 07:50 PM
Wrigley will always draw. Tons of surrounding bars and ivy will always draw the tourists and lemmings. Location is their biggest asset. After 97 years of losing the Cubs are still selling out every other game and I don't suspect that to change soon.

What I do suspect are the true baseball fans and diehards finally getting fed up with the team. Someone mentioned storming the Trib with pitchforks and torches, I'm sure there will be Sox fans willing to go in with them, most likely to find Eric Zorn and make the guy finally explain himself.

batmanZoSo
10-29-2005, 09:16 PM
Like others have said, the cubs certainly have a great deal of good, loyal diehard fans like we do, but that only constitutes a small percentage of game goers. Those people will never be Sox fans, but with this championship, the Sox will definitely win over some of the non-diehards. How many remains to be seen. We're surely not going to match the cubs in attendance, but I don't think 3 million is out of the question next year with another first place season. After all, we drew 2.4 with no championship. And don't forget 2.9 in the park's opening year.

Banix12
10-29-2005, 09:45 PM
I think things already had started to change a little bit as a result of that 2003 debacle. This is just my impression, but it seems to me that many Cub fans have become a little less patient, less content with losing all the time.

I think this is true. They got the taste of winning in their mouths and they liked it and don't want to go back. They are also in a weird place because the last few years there has been a lot of hype around the Cubs. That they had finally put the pieces together and were destined for a championship. When hype doesn't live up to it's billing it is really dissapointing.

I liken the 2003 cubs to the 2000 sox, a decent team that did way better than it was supposed to and fell to earth, and in both cases the following years were tough because winning was expected and you get nothing but failure. What makes the Cubs run worse though is they have yet to win 90 games in a season, even when they made the playoffs.

Cubs fans now even hate the makeup of the team seeing them as a bunch of whiners, they don't like the TV broadcasters that much, they don't have Sammy to fall back on. This team isn't loveable like it was when Harry was alive, when Sammy was hitting dingers, and when they actually won seasons. Remove the lovable tag and you just get losers.

The sox winning is only going to make this feeling worse. A few years ago having not won in so long wasn't so bad because the Red Sox and White Sox both had the same issues. Misery loves company but their company just left town and it ain't coming back.

RadioheadRocks
10-29-2005, 09:49 PM
I think this is true. They got the taste of winning in their mouths and they liked it and don't want to go back. They are also in a weird place because the last few years there has been a lot of hype around the Cubs. That they had finally put the pieces together and were destined for a championship. When hype doesn't live up to it's billing it is really dissapointing.

I liken the 2003 cubs to the 2000 sox, a decent team that did way better than it was supposed to and fell to earth, and in both cases the following years were tough because winning was expected and you get nothing but failure. What makes the Cubs run worse though is they have yet to win 90 games in a season, even when they made the playoffs.

Cubs fans now even hate the makeup of the team seeing them as a bunch of whiners, they don't like the TV broadcasters that much, they don't have Sammy to fall back on. This team isn't loveable like it was when Harry was alive, when Sammy was hitting dingers, and when they actually won seasons. Remove the lovable tag and you just get losers.

The sox winning is only going to make this feeling worse. A few years ago having not won in so long wasn't so bad because the Red Sox and White Sox both had the same issues. Misery loves company but their company just left town and it ain't coming back.

Methinks another Davey Rosello, Manny Trillo and Pete LaCock era may be in store for the team just to the North of us.

Fuller_Schettman
10-29-2005, 09:55 PM
If we pull a 1984 Sox or 1986-87 Bears... things will return to normal.

Sorry, its just what I believe.

There is NO way the White Sox lose to an inferior Washington team in the playoffs 2 years in a row!

:rolling:

I kill me!

TornLabrum
10-29-2005, 11:07 PM
This is the definitive quote of the thread. Long-time, honest-to-goodness Cub fans are disgusted by the product they put on the field year after year. Coach who does nothing but sit there when his pitchers are getting hammered; he's too worried about a pitch count than the score. You have a player who goes 4-for-4 in the previous evening's game, so you stick him on the bench for two weeks.

:jerry

"For a second there, I thought you were talking about me!"

Brewski
10-29-2005, 11:25 PM
I think things already had started to change a little bit as a result of that 2003 debacle. This is just my impression, but it seems to me that many Cub fans have become a little less patient, less content with losing all the time.

Now, with the Sox winning the whole thing, that may be the final straw for those fans. I agree that the diehard fans will stick with their team--I sure as hell would have if (God forbid!) the shoe was on the other foot--but I never really bought the theory that there were all that many of those around anyway.

The next few years should be really interesting!

I'm noticing the same thing. Depression, booing at games, resignation to defeat, loss of interest in the team and players. Plus, now there's a clearly superior alternative. Let's see how it plays out in pre-season ticket sales.

voodoochile
10-29-2005, 11:39 PM
I don't think anything is going to change. The Cubs will be the Cubs and the Sox will be the Sox. People have a short term memory in this town.

Yes, but some of the tourists will be more inclined to go south to get a baseball fix because winning is attractive. In addition some of the casual fans who went to Soxpark during the playoffs will return next year, maybe even buy a 27 game pack that they would have bought at Wrigley instead. The season ticket base is about to take a huge jump. I fully expect it to push 20K next season especially given the fact that if they resign PK, basically the whole team is back again, and with that starting pitching (McCarthy sliding into the 5 slot for El Duque) and a bullpen which is about to get deeper (if they keep El Duque, he goes to relief, IMO) and an offense which was good enough to win it all this year that means another run at the playoffs is in store.

I expect the flubbies to pull out all the stops this off season to put a winner on the field, but no matter what they do, the Sox are going to have a stronger fan base next season, period.

In short, a short term memory means "Hey they won it all last year, let's get on the bandwagon this year." Something similar happened after 2000 on a much smaller scale, but now the base they are building on is bigger and they have a much more marketable product.

voodoochile
10-29-2005, 11:43 PM
There is NO way the White Sox lose to an inferior Washington team in the playoffs 2 years in a row!

:rolling:

I kill me!

Not unless the Nationals sign the fastest cornerback/punt returner in baseball they don't. Of course I admit I would love to see the Sox play Washington in the playoffs the next few years and see what happens...:D:

RKMeibalane
10-30-2005, 12:12 AM
Not unless the Nationals sign the fastest cornerback/punt returner in baseball they don't. Of course I admit I would love to see the Sox play Washington in the playoffs the next few years and see what happens...:D:

I'd like to see the Sox play any team as long as it doesn't have a New York or California-based logo on it. The East-Coast/West-Coast Bias that the Sox had thrown at them during the playoffs was ridiculous.

voodoochile
10-30-2005, 12:13 AM
I'd like to see the Sox play any team as long as it doesn't have a New York or California-based logo on it. The East-Coast/West-Coast Bias that the Sox had thrown at them during the playoffs was ridiculous.

Me, I just figured if they were playing the team from Washington it meant they were back in the Series and that would totally rock...:cool:

SOXintheBURGH
10-30-2005, 12:47 AM
Me, I just figured if they were playing the team from Washington it meant they were back in the Series and that would totally rock...:cool:

That's what I was thinking too..

I'm pretty sure DC kinda counts as "East Coast" too, by the by.

elrod
10-30-2005, 01:03 AM
The 2003 Cubs at the end of the year were much like the 2000 White Sox in June. They scored early and kept on pouncing. And their starting pitching looked like the best in the world. For one and a half months, the 2003 Cubs were a great team. Lofton was an amazing leadoff hitter, Randall Simon got clutch hit after clutch hit, And Grudzielanek was solid all through September. Their record was unimpressive because they were only a game or so over .500 in late August. Coming out of a weak NL Central, they went 19-8 in September, and they were the hottest team going into the playoffs (actually, the only team that did better in September 2003 was the Twins). But then they hit a brick wall with Beckett and then the Bartman game. The 2003 were not a great team overall, but they were a hot team down the stretch, and they ran into a team that was a tad bit hotter.

The problem for the Cubs is that nobody remembers how poor that 2003 team was for most of the season. And it's not so easy to squeak into the playoffs out of the NL Central with 88 wins anymore. So the Cubs have to do something they couldn't even do in 2003 - field a team that's consistent enough to win at least 92 games. They have Prior and Zambrano, who when healthy are some of the best in the National League. But what else do they have? Will Derrek Lee have another amazing season? Not likely, considering how average his second half of 2005 was. Todd Walker and Aramis Ramirez will still hit around .290-.300, but will they hit in the clutch? Nomar might be solid, or he might be done. And who is going to lead off? Will Dusty Baker feel comfortable starting Matt Murton every day? Will he turn Felix Pie into Corey Patterson? On paper, the Cubs can look impressive. They had a bunch of .300 hitters. Their closing situation seemed to settle down with Dempster. But will any of this lead to a team that's much better than the 79-83 club of this year? Health would help, but other than Prior's freak line-drive injury, any of the problems they've had could come back very easily.

DSpivack
10-30-2005, 03:43 AM
The core of the two teams fans, i.e. the true knowledgable diehards, are probably equal in number to White Sox fans. The difference is the bandwagon/casual fan; in recent years for a number of reasons the Cubs have had a lot more. Winning the Series will cause the Sox to increase in the casual/bandwagon market, but I doubt the number for the Cubs will decrease. The Cubs will still have a near-sellout in the near future, but the Sox attendance will quite obviously go quite a bit up.

The interest/coffee table talk around the country for the Sox will continue to go up, again based on future performance. This, however, has pretty much zero effect on the Cubs. The Sox tie attendance and popularity to performance; the Cubs do not. As long as Wrigley is standing and the neighborhood is a popular night spot, they won't have any revenue issues.

These dynamics, despite what many think, are not a venn diagram. The market is plenty big enough to support two successful [be it revenue or performance] franchises.


P.S. Does anyone know the origin of the phrase bandwagon jumper or bandwagon fan?

Flight #24
10-30-2005, 08:04 AM
When we went to the black/silver/white in the 80's our merchandise predominated. It's cyclical. The only Cubby stuf I've seen around here for a month was worn by some of the residents at a center for developmentally disabled adults nearby.

3 pages an no obligatory comment about how that's been the case for ages?:redneck

Seriously - the USCF changes, adding Guillen & the makeup of the current team, the addition of Brooks and doing some actual marketing that speaks to fans, WINNING, and having the Cubs disappoint in a fairly large-scale manner all come together to put this team in excellent position. I think the 60-40 Cubs analogy is probably accurate, but with continued success on the S Side, barring similar on the N side it's going to shift even more towards even.

But if the Trib sells the team........look out!

WSoxFanForever
10-30-2005, 12:59 PM
I can see the kids deciding to cheer for the Sox, considering what they just accomplished, while the Cubs have basically accomplished little for 100 years. I was NEVER ashamed of wearing Sox gear, stickers on the cars, etc. I didn't care if it was "unfashionable" for a North side suburbanite to support the Sox. In the Cubs, I saw an organization that packs the park, makes money, and has no incentive to win. As long as Cubs fans AND their slews of uninformed so-called baseball fans, pack that park, nothing will change. I don't even think the Sox WS will motivate the Trib to cough up a good team. One thing I was told by my kids in Illinois is that the shelves in stores are FILLED with Sox stuff, whereas, when I came in last summer, even with the Sox in 1st, it was still hard to find one Sox shirt to take home to Wisconsin. I'm coming in Tuesday due to a family emergency, but in the midst of all the chaos, I do plan on sneaking to a store to stock up on Sox shirts, caps, etc. I think the Sox fanbase will keep growing. Winning a WS is no small chore.

SOXSINCE'70
10-30-2005, 01:36 PM
1986-87 Bears...

GOD FORBID!! :angry: :angry:

TomBradley72
10-30-2005, 02:17 PM
I'm sure this is a biased opinion...but I picture all those young baseball fans who received a big dose of southside baseball this year (high quality baseball, World Championship, fiery manager, diehard fans, exploding scoreboard after HR's, spine tingling pre-game videos/introductions, fans singing "Let's Go Go Go White Sox", "Na Na Hey Hey Goodbye", "Take Me Out to the Ballgame" (w/out a celebrity), "Sweet Home Chicago", by all accounts now one of the loudest ballparks in majors.....then they wander into Wrigley Field for that experience....which now will completely pale in comparison. We have a chance to go on a major run in this town.

Baby Fisk
10-30-2005, 05:02 PM
Brooks Boyer actually has a DOUBLE TRIUMPH to market next year:

2005, and the 100th anniversary of 1906. Meaning, the White Sox have OWNED the post season in Chicago for the past century (or something along those lines.)

Oh baby, that's the stuff, hoo yeah... :yup:

bigfoot
10-30-2005, 05:59 PM
The core of the two teams fans, i.e. the true knowledgable diehards, are probably equal in number to White Sox fans. The difference is the bandwagon/casual fan; in recent years for a number of reasons the Cubs have had a lot more. Winning the Series will cause the Sox to increase in the casual/bandwagon market, but I doubt the number for the Cubs will decrease. The Cubs will still have a near-sellout in the near future, but the Sox attendance will quite obviously go quite a bit up.

The interest/coffee table talk around the country for the Sox will continue to go up, again based on future performance. This, however, has pretty much zero effect on the Cubs. The Sox tie attendance and popularity to performance; the Cubs do not. As long as Wrigley is standing and the neighborhood is a popular night spot, they won't have any revenue issues.

These dynamics, despite what many think, are not a venn diagram. The market is plenty big enough to support two successful [be it revenue or performance] franchises.


P.S. Does anyone know the origin of the phrase bandwagon jumper or bandwagon fan?


Bandwagon

One of the more frequent questions to this site's discussion forum has been where the phrase jump on the bandwagon comes from. The confusion stems from the fact that the phrase survives into the 21st century while bandwagons are long gone.

In 19th and early 20th century America, a bandwagon was exactly what it sounds like, a wagon, usually horse-drawn, which carried a musical band. Bandwagons were used in circuses, to lead parades, and at political rallies. Hence to join or jump on the bandwagon was to follow the crowd, and in a political context with the connotation that one was there for the entertainment and excitement of the event, rather than from deep or firm conviction.

The first known use of the term bandwagon is from 1855 in P.T. Barnum's Life:

At Vicksburg we sold all our land conveyances excepting four horses and the "band wagon."Use of a bandwagon as a metaphor for a political campaign dates to at least 1884, when the magazine Puck published a cartoon depicting Chester A. Arthur driving a bandwagon full of presidential hopefuls.

The familiar phrase first appears in an 1899 letter by Theodore Roosevelt:

When I once became sure of one majority they rumbled over each other to get aboard the band wagon.(Updated: 20 June 2003; Sources: Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition and Safire's New Political Dictionary.

So........1899, about the time the Cubs last won a WS!!!!

Gavin
10-30-2005, 06:54 PM
I was with one friend's 12 year old yesterday (Wilmette-based) and she told me that the principle of her school is a Sox fan and said the Sox fans can watch "Harry Potter" while Cub fans had to watch "Monsters, Inc." "Monsters" is more age-appropriate for younger kids or adults, so "Potter" is clearly a reward.


That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. "Punish" kids because they are Cub fans? The principal should be fired.

jdm2662
10-30-2005, 07:56 PM
Well, this is something you need to know. Everyone loves a winner. My sister is in her second year at ISU. The Sox were non-existent down there. It was either Cubs or Cards. She said the roar for the Sox was much bigger than she expected. We will see what happens. People were still flocking to Wrigley in the early 90s when the Sox had those good teams. However, the balance in that town in terms of coverage, etc, I felt was pretty equal. We will see. Whatever happens to me doesn't matter. I'll be at Opening Day watching the flag being raise that says "2005 World Series Champions". How cool will that be?

StillMissOzzie
10-30-2005, 08:30 PM
I don't think anything is going to change. The Cubs will be the Cubs and the Sox will be the Sox. People have a short term memory in this town.

Only if you let it happen. While Cub fans may be quick to dismiss 2005 as "ancient history", Sox fans will not let this magical season fade from memory in their lifetimes.

SMO
:gulp:

Knoxville Sox
10-30-2005, 09:55 PM
Brooks Boyer actually has a DOUBLE TRIUMPH to market next year:

2005, and the 100th anniversary of 1906. Meaning, the White Sox have OWNED the post season in Chicago for the past century (or something along those lines.)

Oh baby, that's the stuff, hoo yeah... :yup:

Wonder if anyone has thought of outfitting the Sox in some version of the uniforms they wore in 1906? Talk about driving the point home in two different ways! The current world champs going retro in 2006 to remember the 1906 champs. Put 'em in those uniforms for the series in Wrigley. I'd be laughing my head off watching those clowns in the stands.

Daver
10-30-2005, 10:04 PM
Wonder if anyone has thought of outfitting the Sox in some version of the uniforms they wore in 1906? Talk about driving the point home in two different ways! The current world champs going retro in 2006 to remember the 1906 champs. Put 'em in those uniforms for the series in Wrigley. I'd be laughing my head off watching those clowns in the stands.


Brilliant!

Knoxville Sox
10-30-2005, 10:15 PM
Only thing is that 85-90% of those losers wouldn't know what the Sox were doing to them.

Still, it would be worth it knowing that we would have rubbed salt in the wounds of the 10-15% recognizing the mockery in the gesture.

1951Campbell
10-30-2005, 10:16 PM
There are plenty of real, knowledgable Cubs fans around. They just get overwhelmed by the doofuses that go to Wrigley just to be seen. I'd expect the real fans to be first in line at Tribune tower with torches and pitchforks. The real Cubs fans know that the annual attendance trophy is their worst enemy. I actually feel bad for them. As long as the Tribune Co. can put garbage on the field and still fill the park, they have no hope.

The above post appeared almost verbatim on northsidebaseball.com several times a day during the playoffs. That tells you something.

1951Campbell
10-30-2005, 10:20 PM
People have a short term memory in this town.

Bull****. You'd think the '85 Bears happened no later than two years ago.

Ol' No. 2
10-30-2005, 10:21 PM
The above post appeared almost verbatim on northsidebaseball.com several times a day during the playoffs. That tells you something.It wasn't me. Honest.:wink:

Daver
10-30-2005, 10:23 PM
Only thing is that 85-90% of those losers wouldn't know what the Sox were doing to them.

Still, it would be worth it knowing that we would have rubbed salt in the wounds of the 10-15% recognizing the mockery in the gesture.

It doesn't matter, the national media would take it and run with it.

1951Campbell
10-30-2005, 10:24 PM
It doesn't matter, the national media would take it and run with it.

You, sir, are an optimist, at least on that point.

Daver
10-30-2005, 10:29 PM
You, sir, are an optimist, at least on that point.

No, you still haven't grasped it, this will be the defending World Champion team, ESPN and Fox will fight over the rights to the crosstown classic games.

1951Campbell
10-30-2005, 10:59 PM
No, you still haven't grasped it, this will be the defending World Champion team, ESPN and Fox will fight over the rights to the crosstown classic games.

Well, maybe then I'm a pessimist. Put the shoe on the other foot: will Fox and ESPN be falling all over themselves to televise the Astros/Rangers series? After all, the 'Stros did make it to the World Series. And I sure don't remember the Marlins getting a lot of attention in 2004.

I think the dominant media meme is still that the 2005 season was an aberration, and 2006 will be "BoSox and Yankees: can they return to glory?" and "the Cubs: their turn to break their curse."

Daver
10-30-2005, 11:07 PM
Well, maybe then I'm a pessimist. Put the shoe on the other foot: will Fox and ESPN be falling all over themselves to televise the Astros/Rangers series? After all, the 'Stros did make it to the World Series. And I sure don't remember the Marlins getting a lot of attention in 2004.

I think the dominant media meme is still that the 2005 season was an aberration, and 2006 will be "BoSox and Yankees: can they return to glory?" and "the Cubs: their turn to break their curse."

You miss the point even further, the Astos/Rangers mean nothing, while the Sox/Cubs means everything, the team that just ended one of the longest runs without a championship against the team that still holds that record, the national media can create story lines left and right over that. The fact that they play in the same city makes it that much better.

Knoxville Sox
10-30-2005, 11:15 PM
It doesn't matter, the national media would take it and run with it.

...and so the entire poseur posse would know what was being done to them.

This needs to happen. In their own joint. In front of their own following locally and nationally. A two-fisted PR punch from the past and present combining to torture them.

FielderJones
10-30-2005, 11:39 PM
Wonder if anyone has thought of outfitting the Sox in some version of the uniforms they wore in 1906? Talk about driving the point home in two different ways! The current world champs going retro in 2006 to remember the 1906 champs. Put 'em in those uniforms for the series in Wrigley. I'd be laughing my head off watching those clowns in the stands.

One problem I see with this is that the casual fan is going to wonder why the Sox are bringing back Bill Veeck's uniforms.

1906 (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/exhibits/online%5Fexhibits/dressed%5Fto%5Fthe%5Fnines/images/al_1906_chicago.gif)

1976 (http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/exhibits/online%5Fexhibits/dressed%5Fto%5Fthe%5Fnines/images/al_1976_chicago.gif)

1951Campbell
10-30-2005, 11:53 PM
You miss the point even further, the Astos/Rangers mean nothing, while the Sox/Cubs means everything, the team that just ended one of the longest runs without a championship against the team that still holds that record, the national media can create story lines left and right over that. The fact that they play in the same city makes it that much better.

I've lived out East for 8 years now, and I've soaked up the media. I'd like to be wrong, and for you to be right, but unfortunately I think I'm right. There were ample storylines available this year, and they were tossed aside on favor of barely-concealed whining about how the Sox simply did not match up to the usual AL suspects from New York and Boston.

We shall see.

Realist
10-31-2005, 04:18 AM
Putting the Sox in retro 1906 uniforms for the games against the Cubs in 2006 is indeed a brilliant idea, but I don't think it's going to happen. Uncle Jerry has recently reached out an olive branch to Cubdom and I don't think he'd be at all too keen on ruffling their feathers or rubbing salt into their wounds. Brooks will have to do some really fast talking to convince him that wearing those uniforms would be a good idea.

Hitmen77
10-31-2005, 10:52 AM
I don't think anything is going to change. The Cubs will be the Cubs and the Sox will be the Sox. People have a short term memory in this town.

Nothing lasts forever. Remember that pre-1984, the Cubs routinely closed their upper deck for lack of fans at games. I'm not saying that the Cubs will go back to that in the next few years, but we could be in the process of shifting the balance in Chicago back towards at least a more balanced slice of the fanbase.

I think the coverage the Sox, the Cell, and Sox fans have gotten over the past month is invaluable. I really honestly believe that most non-Sox fan Chicagoans really thought that the Sox play in totally crime-ridden area that is something out of Robocop that you don't dare venture to (let alone, God forbid, you bring your family to), that Sox fans are mostly housing project residents or classless white trash, and that The Cell is just the most terrible place on Earth. People really believe this and it's been killing the Sox ability to compete.

The coverage especially since they won the pennant has been great - showing Bridgeport as a vibrant, family-oriented neighborhood. Countless reports of people flooding Grandstand (I thought all businesses were boarded up near the Cell! People are actually waiting in line outside Grandstand? Aren't they afraid of drive-by shootings?). Countless stories of people cheering on the Sox with their children and remembering departed love ones. Countless shots of passionate Sox fans singing our Sox fight songs. Almost no reports of Sox fans acting irresponsibly during the celebrations. The realization that there are actually plenty of Sox fans in places like Naperville and even (gasp) the North Side and NW suburbs..and so forth. I think people are finally seeing the Sox in a whole new light and when people finally go to the Cell, they'll realize how alive the place is and how it's really a great place to watch a game with features such as the Fan Deck and the Fundamentals area for kids.

The Sox have been handed a golden opportunity here.

TomBradley72
10-31-2005, 11:22 AM
Putting the Sox in retro 1906 uniforms for the games against the Cubs in 2006 is indeed a brilliant idea, but I don't think it's going to happen. Uncle Jerry has recently reached out an olive branch to Cubdom and I don't think he'd be at all too keen on ruffling their feathers or rubbing salt into their wounds. Brooks will have to do some really fast talking to convince him that wearing those uniforms would be a good idea.

I'm pretty sure they did this for the first interleague series back in the late '90's at the Cell....but they wore uniforms from a few years later:

From the Tribune Web Site story of the game:

"Teams wore vintage uniforms Monday. The Cubs chose their 1911 road look, with the Sox taking the outfit they wore in the 1917 Series."

mjharrison72
10-31-2005, 11:30 AM
A few people have hit on this earlier, but I really just want to emphasize the importance of what's going on with kids right now. Not the ones looking to not get carded by the beer guy, but the impressionable grade-schoolers. They LOVE this Sox team, whereas the cubs aren't even on the radar. I can see, just from this one season, an entire generation of kids growing up as Sox fans, and I love it. Not to mention next season, they will actually be able to get tickets to see games in our family-friendly ballpark. Run with it, Brooks!

Knoxville Sox
10-31-2005, 12:28 PM
A few people have hit on this earlier, but I really just want to emphasize the importance of what's going on with kids right now. Not the ones looking to not get carded by the beer guy, but the impressionable grade-schoolers. They LOVE this Sox team, whereas the cubs aren't even on the radar. I can see, just from this one season, an entire generation of kids growing up as Sox fans, and I love it. Not to mention next season, they will actually be able to get tickets to see games in our family-friendly ballpark. Run with it, Brooks!

Those kids are important. When the Yankees were the tenants of the Giants at the Polo Grounds, the Giants held the power. They had the fanbase. They had the talent. They had the legends in McGraw, Matthewson, and Terry. They were the winners in New York. Then Babe Ruth showed up. Soon after Gehrig emerged. Then came the new stadium. The impact of all this wasn't upon the adults pulling for the Giants, but rather upon the kids. Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, and even Willie Mays couldn't match the Yankee pantheon. Those kids grew up as Yankee fans right at the time the Giants started having attendance problems.

What we see here is not what existed in New York pre-Ruth. The Cubs have held the majority of people, but that hold has been based on the aesthetic "qualities" of the Urinal rather than any actual ability or quality of the franchise. Their legends are a stadium and a past-his-prime, neutered, and deceased broadcaster. This is not enough to capture and hold the kids, especially after the Sox have gotten it done in Chicago.

Character, tradition, and now championship form reside in the Southside. Heroes are being born at Comiskey, legends kids can latch on to as the lure of the White Sox takes hold upon their hearts.

I think the dynamic will be flipped as the new-born Sox kids become adults. You'll see the Sox attendances equalize and then surpass the Cubs crowd on a regular basis. The only thing that may save the Cubs are the tourists...and that only lasts as long as they can keep that slum of a baseball park structurally-sound.

If they are forced to head to new digs, then they will have to actually compete for championships like the Sox.

antitwins13
10-31-2005, 12:33 PM
Bull****. You'd think the '85 Bears happened no later than two years ago.

There is a difference between nostalgia and short-term memory. For example in 2000 Jerry Manuel was the next Al Lopez. Two years later it didn't matter because it is a "what have you done for me lately" philosophy.

cheeses_h_rice
10-31-2005, 12:37 PM
FYI, the White Sox WILL be wearing retro 1906 jerseys for some of their Sunday home games in 2006, just as they did for the 1917 and 1959 uniforms in past years.

SouthSoxFan
11-08-2005, 02:06 PM
It actually wasn't that long ago that this town supported the Sox more than the Cubs. And what drove that was the winning teams the Sox put on the field in the early 90's. The '94 Strike was a much tougher blow to the Sox fans, since we felt we were on the brink at that time. It was then ,after '95, that the Cubs started winning the recent attendance race.

You can also see that the gap closed a bit in 2005, with the Cubs dropping about 100k and the Sox up about 400k. Expect this gap to shrink much further in '06, espeically if the Sox keep a winner on the field and the Cubs continue to struggle. Sure Wrigley and Wrigleyville will still attract a crowd, but more and more people have "been there, done that" ; there's going to be a new attraction in Chicago namely seeing a Championship team on the field.

Attendance comparison over the last 30 seasons:
http://www.geocities.com/southwhitesoxfan/SoxCubsAtt.jpg

Hitmen77
11-08-2005, 02:39 PM
Attendance comparison over the last 30 seasons:
http://www.geocities.com/southwhitesoxfan/SoxCubsAtt.jpg

Note that the Cubs got 2 big boosts in the last 8 years. First was when Sham-Me was riding his corked bat and steriods to surpass Maris. That really turned Wrigley into a "let's go to watch Sammy and not the game" circus that didn't end until last year. The second big boost came when the Cubs went to the playoffs in 2003. At that point, the Trib got to the enviable point where scarcity of tickets were driving demand more than anything as ticket brokers and fans gobbled up tickets for fear of not being able to get them later.

Note that if you look before 1998 (which is NOT that long ago), the Cubs were below 2.5 million and the Cubs and Sox numbers were ALOT closer.

Vernam
11-08-2005, 02:44 PM
Nice chart, but did I miss something? Has the moratorium on talking about a********* been lifted?

Vernam
Note that the Cubs got 2 big boosts in the last 8 years. First was when Sham-Me was riding his corked bat and steriods to surpass Maris. That really turned Wrigley into a "let's go to watch Sammy and not the game" circus that didn't end until last year. The second big boost came when the Cubs went to the playoffs in 2003. At that point, the Trib got to the enviable point where scarcity of tickets were driving demand more than anything as ticket brokers and fans gobbled up tickets for fear of not being able to get them later.

Note that if you look before 1998 (which is NOT that long ago), the Cubs were rarely breaking 2.5 million and the Cubs and Sox numbers were ALOT closer.

Hitmen77
11-08-2005, 02:49 PM
Nice chart, but did I miss something? Has the moratorium on talking about a********* been lifted?

Vernam

:DJUh-oh.

voodoochile
11-08-2005, 02:50 PM
Nice chart, but did I miss something? Has the moratorium on talking about a********* been lifted?

Vernam

No. But for discussion about the Sox Cubs dynamic this is a valid discussion. It's strict discussions about how few of us Sox fans are supporting the team which gets people in trouble. So long as this conversation doesn't go there, it's all good.

I would like to add in that right when ShamME* went off on his homer binge, the Sox were just coming off the White Flag Trade. That crushed attendance figures on the SS right when the NS took off.

Now the NS is effectively sold out most of the time (will be interesting to see if that trend continues next year) and thus casual fans have to go SS to get their baseball fix. That has led to some of the increase the past few years, IMO. Now with the Sox being Champs, the trendline should go vertical this coming year until the Sox too are effectively sold out for the upcoming season.

Anyone got one for opening day? I'm flying in and simply HAVE to see the flag raising...

mantis1212
11-08-2005, 02:58 PM
That is an interesting graph- it really shows how significant 1997 - 1998 were (white flag and Sammy's homers)

EDIT: Also, the significance of the New Comiskey being built was HUGE - close to 1M to close to 3MM?? Wow

Johnny Mostil
11-08-2005, 03:36 PM
No. But for discussion about the Sox Cubs dynamic this is a valid discussion. It's strict discussions about how few of us Sox fans are supporting the team which gets people in trouble. So long as this conversation doesn't go there, it's all good.

I did (but did not post) something similar recently on persons at Cubs and Sox games and winning percentage for each team over past 20 years or so. One guess where the effect of winning was greater (or, conversely, where team performance had no effect). If relevant, and if I can figure out how to minimize the bytes, I'll post . . .

SouthSoxFan
11-08-2005, 03:41 PM
That is an interesting graph- it really shows how significant 1997 - 1998 were (white flag and Sammy's homers)

EDIT: Also, the significance of the New Comiskey being built was HUGE - close to 1M to close to 3MM?? Wow
Winning had a big impact too. The 1mm to 3mm jump occurred over a 3 year period:
1989 1.0mm,
1990 2.0mm (old park, 94-68 record, 2nd place)
1991 2.9mm (new park, 87-75 record, 2nd place)

SouthSoxFan
11-08-2005, 03:48 PM
Anyone got one for opening day? I'm flying in and simply HAVE to see the flag raising...
I've already marked the calendar and booked my flights for that one too. Hopefully I won't have to spend quite as much as I did on World Series tickets.

Dolly
11-08-2005, 04:39 PM
That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. "Punish" kids because they are Cub fans? The principal should be fired.


I agree that it was stupid, but that's pretty harsh to say that he should be fired. They still got to watch Monsters, Inc., and that's hardly a "punishment."


A few people have hit on this earlier, but I really just want to emphasize the importance of what's going on with kids right now. Not the ones looking to not get carded by the beer guy, but the impressionable grade-schoolers. They LOVE this Sox team, whereas the cubs aren't even on the radar. I can see, just from this one season, an entire generation of kids growing up as Sox fans, and I love it. Not to mention next season, they will actually be able to get tickets to see games in our family-friendly ballpark. Run with it, Brooks!

I teach 1st grade, and I always tell the kids on game days that their homework is to watch the Sox and cheer really loud (obviously, I don't grade them on it). Every year when the school year starts, I have a few kids tell me that their daddy told them to tell me that they are Cubs fans-- even a couple this year, before the playoffs. Now, they don't even mention the Cubs. It's like they don't even exist!!! I taught them the words to the Go-Go White Sox song, and they LOVE it. They beg me every day to let them sing it!!! Plus, we had "White Sox" day where the kids could dress in White Sox apparel and didn't have to wear their uniforms. So I am doing my best to increase the fan base with the kids!!! :D:

Vernam
11-08-2005, 05:28 PM
The removal of 6,600 UD seats will make it slightly tougher to reach the 3M mark in 2006 and beyond, World Series or not. It won't make a difference day-to-day, but for sure sellouts, it depresses the attendance total slightly. They had 18 sellouts in the 2005 regular season. That would be just under 120,000 more people, though I realize it's not safe to assume they'd have sold the additional 6,600 for each game. It is definitely safe to assume they'll have more than 18 sellouts in 2006, though.

Okay, I admit all the above was just an excuse to finally use the word "attendance." :redneck

Vernam
That is an interesting graph- it really shows how significant 1997 - 1998 were (white flag and Sammy's homers)

EDIT: Also, the significance of the New Comiskey being built was HUGE - close to 1M to close to 3MM?? Wow

Hitmen77
11-08-2005, 05:38 PM
Winning had a big impact too. The 1mm to 3mm jump occurred over a 3 year period:
1989 1.0mm,
1990 2.0mm (old park, 94-68 record, 2nd place)
1991 2.9mm (new park, 87-75 record, 2nd place)

There were 2 major factor that drove attendance down to the 1 million mark in the late 80s: 1) The teams lousy record and 2) the threatened move to Florida.

Likewise, there were 2 major factors that nearly tripled attendance over the next couple of years: 1) The team's suprising return to playoff contention 2) excitement over the farewell to Old Comiskey and the opening of new Comiskey.