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View Full Version : It's a decent trade


Soxboyrob
12-13-2001, 12:41 PM
There is nothing wrong w/ the trade the Sox just made. It seems pretty clear to me that KW was pursuing a starting pitcher that would eat innings. That said, it's reasonable to expect that he'd have to give up a little more than he's getting in order to get the Pirates to accept the deal. We were likely the pursuers and thus, have to make them an offer that they'll jump at.

We gave up a journeyman reliever/spot starter, an inconsistent and often infuriating starter/prospect, and a prospect in Fogg. Yes, Lowe was often excellent in relief and gave us several quality spot starts. But you've got to give up some talent to get some talent. Ritchie is the kind of pitcher the Sox needed. He chews up innings and gives the bullpen a break. He's not a world beater, but he's a guy that can go 7 or 8 innings and give up only 4 runs. Think about how many games he might win w/ the Sox doing just that. If the guy can pitch 200+ innings again this season, the need for a guy like Lowe is somewhat reduced. Lowe did a good job as a starter, but how many times did the guy go 4-5 innings and get blown to hell in the 5th or 6th? I'll miss Lowe but we're getting a guy that can put up stats similar to Lowe and for twice as many innings. I'm not gonna miss Wells and never really knew Fogg.

This staff NEEDED a consistent full time starter badly and Ritchie fills that role. Did any of you really think Lowe could handle the role of full time starter? I didn't. He hadn't shown that. In comparing last years stats for the two guys, their WHIPs, H/9inning, HR/9innings, BB/9inning and K's/9inning are almost identical. I mean IDENTICAL. The only thing different between the two guys was their ERA's. I can't think of how to explain the difference except to possibly the timeliness of the hits against Ritchie as opposed to Lowe. As far as I'm concerned, we just got a Sean Lowe that can go 200 innings a year. All of this is not even to mention that Ritchie has OUTSTANDING stuff and might be able to be coached into being more consistent w/ that stuff. Hell, the guy went 15-9 in '99 w/ a 3.something ERA. We got a talented guy in this deal.

WinningUgly!
12-13-2001, 12:50 PM
It's not that bad of a deal. I'm just a little upset at the way Kenny Williams comes out & says that Kipper was the guy that the Pittsburgh GM wanted all along. If this was the case & he was so hot after Kip, I just think we may have given up a bit much. Maybe Ritchie will be the innings-eating workhorse that he's supposed to be. I just think that Wells, Lowe & Fogg are too much for a maybe.

Soxboyrob
12-13-2001, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by WinningUgly!
I just think that Wells, Lowe & Fogg are too much for a maybe.

I don't think Ritchie is all that much of a maybe. He's averaged about 188 innings pitched per year over the last 3 seasons and has pitched an increasing number of innings each year over that span, having thrown 207+ in '01. The only maybe I see is that maybe he's due for an injury. If he brings his '99 stuff, he wins 20 games w/ our club.

WinningUgly!
12-13-2001, 01:04 PM
Ritchie has been pretty solid. I'm also pissed because now I have to change my favorite current Sox player in my profile.

irish rover
12-13-2001, 01:29 PM
I agree about richie, he maybe very similar to Leiber, Jon only had 1 winning record with the bucks and of the 5 yrs he had an era over 4 three times, he doesn't have that good of record with the cubs either, lot of the stats can be scewed based on the team, Jon has played for some crappy cub and buck teams so has richie, with some "D" and a good "O" he should be alright

Randar68
12-13-2001, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by irish rover
, with some "D"

You do remember how the Sox defense is, don't you?

moochpuppy
12-13-2001, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


You do remember how the Sox defense is, don't you?

Why'd ya hafta go and remind me. :(:

KempersRS
12-13-2001, 02:42 PM
I think going after Ritchie was a decent move, but once again I think Kenny undervalued his players and gave up too much. Fogg and Wells for Ritchie, or Lowe for Ritchie would have made more sense, much more. Lowe and Ritchie are worth the same. Ritchie has the ability throw more innings than Lowe I believe, but Lowe has proven to be very effective, go by the numbers and you would have to say much more effective than Ritchie. Good idea, but I must say once again, poorly executed by Kenny.

Soxboyrob
12-13-2001, 03:01 PM
It's very common for fans of a team to think their team gave up too much value for the guy coming in to replace those traded players. I am willing to bet that Pirate fans are crying about the bunch of junk the Sox gave them for their future hall of fame pitcher. It's just like that. I promise you that the Angel fans would have been crying about the Erstad trade, had it occured, as would the Sox fans have been crying about giving up so much for Erstad. We like our guys and place a lot of emotional/sentimental value on their heads. Unless Kip Wells and Josh Fogg come out gangbusters and blow the league away this season, this trade makes the Sox better. I'll bet that Cards fans were pissed when they gave up Broglio for Brock.

CerberusWG
12-13-2001, 03:07 PM
At first I didn't understand this trade. Then when I looked at it, this isn't a bad trade at all. I know Fogg is good, but we have Barcelo and Osuna coming back, Howry is suuposed to be good, we resigned Foulke, so we have the righties in the pen. Now we trade Kip who never delevoped, and Sean who couldn't pitch too many pitches for a decent Starter.

Not that bad if i say so myself.

KempersRS
12-13-2001, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
It's very common for fans of a team to think their team gave up too much value for the guy coming in to replace those traded players. I am willing to bet that Pirate fans are crying about the bunch of junk the Sox gave them for their future hall of fame pitcher. It's just like that. I promise you that the Angel fans would have been crying about the Erstad trade, had it occured, as would the Sox fans have been crying about giving up so much for Erstad. We like our guys and place a lot of emotional/sentimental value on their heads. Unless Kip Wells and Josh Fogg come out gangbusters and blow the league away this season, this trade makes the Sox better. I'll bet that Cards fans were pissed when they gave up Broglio for Brock.

It's a pretty bad policy to say "Let's get fleeced since we have so much depth". I haven't found an angry Pirate fan anywhere. We paid too much. I may have a biased view as being a Sox fan, but I can understand we are getting the short end of the stick.

KempersRS
12-13-2001, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by CerberusWG
we have Barcelo and Osuna coming back, Howry is suuposed to be good


Surgery, surgery, gascan.

idseer
12-13-2001, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
It's very common for fans of a team to think their team gave up too much value for the guy coming in to replace those traded players. I am willing to bet that Pirate fans are crying about the bunch of junk the Sox gave them for their future hall of fame pitcher. It's just like that. I promise you that the Angel fans would have been crying about the Erstad trade, had it occured, as would the Sox fans have been crying about giving up so much for Erstad. We like our guys and place a lot of emotional/sentimental value on their heads. Unless Kip Wells and Josh Fogg come out gangbusters and blow the league away this season, this trade makes the Sox better. I'll bet that Cards fans were pissed when they gave up Broglio for Brock.

actually on the espn boards most pirate fans think they got a steal!
personally i'm very happy with this trade. and if you saw some of the articles about the catcher, evans, we got also this could turn out to be a great trade! pirates are catching heavy in their system and this guy is highly thought of. and our catching prospects haven't looked all that hot!
i don't like KW, but i think he did good here.

Soxboyrob
12-13-2001, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


It's a pretty bad policy to say "Let's get fleeced since we have so much depth". I haven't found an angry Pirate fan anywhere. We paid too much. I may have a biased view as being a Sox fan, but I can understand we are getting the short end of the stick.

Didn't mean to infer that I subscribe to the "getting fleeced" policy. My only thinking is that if you pursue the trade, you might have to offer a little something extra to get it done. Fogg was probably that "something extra." It's sorta like the premium paid on stocks when a corporation buys another. I'd bet there are plenty of Pitt fans that don't like this trade. The more I think about this trade, the more I like it. I'll miss Lowe. We all will. Mr. Bluecollargetthejobdone never got the respect he deserved from KW. Maybe he'll get better treatment from the Pirates.

KempersRS
12-13-2001, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob


Didn't mean to infer that I subscribe to the "getting fleeced" policy. My only thinking is that if you pursue the trade, you might have to offer a little something extra to get it done. Fogg was probably that "something extra." It's sorta like the premium paid on stocks when a corporation buys another. I'd bet there are plenty of Pitt fans that don't like this trade. The more I think about this trade, the more I like it. I'll miss Lowe. We all will. Mr. Bluecollargetthejobdone never got the respect he deserved from KW. Maybe he'll get better treatment from the Pirates.

I can see your point, though I'm still not a fan of the trade. It seems natural to just have lingering thoughts that the guys we dealt will play over their own heads for the Bucs. I'm sure the Bucs fans could think that it is possible for their new young guns to flop. They seem to be pretty optimistic about the deal actually, from the boards I have checked anyway. As like anything else, we will have to see how it plays out.

Soxboyrob
12-13-2001, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS


I can see your point, though I'm still not a fan of the trade. It seems natural to just have lingering thoughts that the guys we dealt will play over their own heads for the Bucs. I'm sure the Bucs fans could think that it is possible for their new young guns to flop. They seem to be pretty optimistic about the deal actually, from the boards I have checked anyway. As like anything else, we will have to see how it plays out.

Indeed some of them are optimistic about the prospects of this trade...and for good reason. Ritchie wasn't going to help them do anything this next couple years except to possibly keep them from losing 100 games. The fans of the Bucs right now are looking at the longer range. Honestly, we probably got killed on this trade if you're going to examine it from a long range perspective. Most of them are talking as if maybe they'll be a formidable team in a couple of years if some of these young guys they're getting pan out. We had the pitching to burn and needed a guy to help us get to the postseason. You can probably make a good case to show that the Giants got burned in the White flag trade, but nobody ever discusses that.

stefaninsane
12-13-2001, 04:21 PM
Mistakes lead to mistakes. Why bother trading for Ritchie in the first place when you can sign somebody like Valdes or Astacio? Ritchie and Lowe are both reclamation projects and probably about equal in value. I'm sure Lowe's numbers, if he had pitched an entire season in the same role as Ritchie, would be very similar. Basically, we gave away Kip Wells and Fogg for nothing. At the very least, they've both pitched well out of the bullpen and at least have the potential to get better, while Ritchie and Lowe have maxed out. I think as long as KW is in charge of this team, you might as well forget about it.

bringbackrobin
12-13-2001, 04:28 PM
Ritchie can't do anything Lowe couldn't do if given the opportunity. We got fleeced once again. Remember, Ritchie used to be a minor league free agent, anybody could have had him for free.

Huisj
12-13-2001, 06:08 PM
I think maybe we did give up a bit much in this trade, but at the same time, you gotta keep in mind that Sean Lowe is not a super pitcher. He got hot in the middle of the summer right when he needed to step up, and he just kind of rode that streak right till the end of the year. He didn't pitch all that good towards the end of the year really. Also, keep in mind that last April he as actually sent down to AAA for a few weeks. Remember a week or to before that when he game into a game in a crucial spot and he threw 8 straight balls to walk the only two men he faced? And in 2000, he struggled with his control terribly for most of the year (I guess he had some ribcage muscle pull or something, but still). It's not like the sox are giving up an all-star or anything in Sean Lowe. However, I can see Wells being the one we regret giving up.

FarWestChicago
12-13-2001, 06:13 PM
Welcome to WSI, Huisj!! :gulp: