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View Full Version : Cheating or Stealing the Series?


GoSoxGo
10-24-2005, 07:48 AM
If,and when,the Sox win the World Series, do you think our title will be tainted due to the scrutiny given by the media to every controversial umpiring call during the ALCS and Series? After every game in which a close call has been made the first words out of every commentator on Fox, CSC, Chicago news stations or elsewhere is about "the iffy call that won it for the Sox." Ok, I admit I am a simp, but the replay of all of those calls seemed to show, if not a correct call at least a 50-50 call made by the umpire. I am sure there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in calling for instant replay to be used next post-season. Anyway, the calls in our favor do not seem to have been the deciding factor in the victories. I just don't want a great Sox post-season and championship ruined by second-guessers and instigators. Any thoughts?

A. Cavatica
10-24-2005, 07:58 AM
If,and when,the Sox win the World Series, do you think our title will be tainted due to the scrutiny given by the media to every controversial umpiring call during the ALCS and Series? After every game in which a close call has been made the first words out of every commentator on Fox, CSC, Chicago news stations or elsewhere is about "the iffy call that won it for the Sox." Ok, I admit I am a simp, but the replay of all of those calls seemed to show, if not a correct call at least a 50-50 call made by the umpire. I am sure there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in calling for instant replay to be used next post-season. Anyway, the calls in our favor do not seem to have been the deciding factor in the victories. I just don't want a great Sox post-season and championship ruined by second-guessers and instigators. Any thoughts?

The Fox announcers are idiots. I don't care what they think.

jcw218
10-24-2005, 08:02 AM
If,and when,the Sox win the World Series, do you think our title will be tainted due to the scrutiny given by the media to every controversial umpiring call during the ALCS and Series? After every game in which a close call has been made the first words out of every commentator on Fox, CSC, Chicago news stations or elsewhere is about "the iffy call that won it for the Sox." Ok, I admit I am a simp, but the replay of all of those calls seemed to show, if not a correct call at least a 50-50 call made by the umpire. I am sure there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth in calling for instant replay to be used next post-season. Anyway, the calls in our favor do not seem to have been the deciding factor in the victories. I just don't want a great Sox post-season and championship ruined by second-guessers and instigators. Any thoughts?

The calls are a part of the game. They happen. Deal with it. Instant replay should not be a part of baseball - ever. I don't care what the situation is. The White Sox capitalized on an opportunity that they were given in the game. They got the job done plain and simple.

seventytwo
10-24-2005, 08:08 AM
F No

Maximo
10-24-2005, 08:25 AM
Let's see.......the Yankees have won what? Somewhere in the vicinity of 20-30 World Championships?

Must have gotten a lot of help from the "Baseball Gods".......but I don't think too many people can recall just one "break" that put them over the top.

If only General Custer had been better at arithmetic.

chaerulez
10-24-2005, 08:30 AM
The most obvious "cheating" happened in the Jeffery Maier incident in I believe what was the '96 postseason. I don't see the media crying about that... oh wait it's the Yankees.

house215
10-24-2005, 08:33 AM
You only remember bad calls when a team makes the most out of it. The Astros had call going their way in the NLCS and had got some iffy calls on hits batsman in game 1 as well.

oeo
10-24-2005, 08:50 AM
If you need to zoom in and analyze each play that closely, for every umpire mistake...then in my eyes the umpires are doing their job. If we can only tell by slowing down the play and zooming in, then watching it 20 times...the umpires are doing fine. Unless it is an obvious mistake (which I'm yet to see), how can the umpires see what we can hardly see with a slowed down, zoomed in replay.

wdelaney72
10-24-2005, 09:10 AM
Let's also not forget 2 other factors.

1) Iguchi pick off at 1B. This call could have gone both ways. Replays showed it to be a very difficult call.

2) Jenks got absolutely squeezed by the Home Plate umpire Sunday night. The tying run I don't think should have even been on base.

I didn't hear an outcry for justice in either of these situations.

Joe Buck and Tim McCarver absolutely blow.

mrwag
10-24-2005, 09:42 AM
Can't argue with destiny, people. It's just supposed to happen.

The umps are human, and humans sometimes make mistakes. It happens, and the Sox are good enough to capitalize. They SHOULD win.

MillerSoxFan
10-24-2005, 10:03 AM
It's all Fox trying to drum up viewers and all they can find is playing up this 'another bad call' angle. Too bad they just can't admit that no one in the national media saw the Sox for what they are - the best team in baseball. At least Mike Greenberg admitted it on ESPN this morning - the Sox are playing flawless baseball.

Baby Fisk
10-24-2005, 10:08 AM
Yeah, we're all going to feel really guilty wearing our WHITE SOX WORLD CHAMPIONS gear around town. Maybe we should sew some asterisks onto each item of clothing.

doublem23
10-24-2005, 10:09 AM
Let's all thank the real hero of last night, Jeff Nelson, by ruling Dye was HBP, it allowed the go-ahead run to score.

:rolleyes:

Red Barchetta
10-24-2005, 10:11 AM
...it would have been more fun if it was A.J. and not Dye batting! :tongue:

I think there have been other close plays that have not gone our way as well, i.e. the "neighborhood play" with Iguchi on the double play ball, Iguchi again at first base on the pick off and some other close, critical strikes.

It's about time we get a little luck on our side....

itsnotrequired
10-24-2005, 10:11 AM
Let's all thank the real hero of last night, Jeff Nelson, for letting Dye take first and giving the Sox back that lead.

:rolleyes:

...because we all know that of the pitch had been ruled a foul ball, Dye would have popped-up on the next toss and the inning would be over.

TommyJohn
10-24-2005, 10:17 AM
Didn't Berkman pull a little "gamesmanship" with the Cubs last year and pretend
to take a ball off the noggin when in fact it didn't happen? So Houston has
benefitted in the past.

Of course, that won't stop some media and fans from crying, because of course
these are the only blown calls that have ever happened in postseason history.
:rolleyes:

credefan24
10-24-2005, 10:19 AM
It is truely amazing how Buck and McCarver scrutinize every call that goes in favor of the Sox, but when Iguchi get picked off on a close tag, or the non-existent strike zone for Jenks, they are silent.

These guys don't respect the Sox, don't like to Sox, and wish it were Boston or NY in the Series. I say F 'Em. The true fans,those on this board, know about this team and have follwed these guys ever since that 1-0 Openind Day victory.
PLUS..... when you start blaming the umps for a win or a loss, you know you are in trouble.
An interesting difference between Garner and Scoica. When asked what he thought about AJ's dropped 3rd strike, Scioca said, "We didn't play good enough to absorb that mistake."
When Garner was asked about Dye's HBP, he said "I thought it hit the bat."
Just a different attitude between these two Coaches.

Iwritecode
10-24-2005, 10:20 AM
Let's all thank the real hero of last night, Jeff Nelson, by ruling Dye was HBP, it allowed the go-ahead run to score.

:rolleyes:

Nice non-use of teal. :D:

halfpricemonday
10-24-2005, 10:22 AM
I know some people hate the "Who Cares?" tag. I know some people think it's inappropriate, irreverent, and juvenile. So, with that in mind...

:whocares

And to those I've offended...

:shammy
"I just wanna a-paw-lo-gize..."

LongLiveFisk
10-24-2005, 10:39 AM
People have no right to call us cheaters because given the same circumstances in their team's favor, they'd do the same thing. Remember that blown call in Game 6 of the NLCS when the Astros got away with one (the slide by Mabry into 2nd)? I'm sure Astros fans didn't call that cheating and they didn't expect their infielder to say to the ump, "Oh, gee ump, I never tagged him! He's safe!!" *****.

Also, if our hitters aren't coming through after EVERY FRICKING "lucky break", this is a non-issue. If that's not a testament to how well the Sox are playing and people can't see that and give credit where credit is INCREDIBLY due, then screw them.

It's OUR year!! :bandance:

itsnotrequired
10-24-2005, 10:44 AM
People have no right to call us cheaters because given the same circumstances in their team's favor, they'd do the same thing. Remember that blown call in Game 6 of the NLCS when the Astros got away with one (the slide by Mabry into 2nd)? I'm sure Astros fans didn't call that cheating and they didn't expect their infielder to say to the ump, "Oh, gee ump, I never tagged him! He's safe!!" *****.

Also, if our hitters aren't coming through after EVERY FRICKING "lucky break", this is a non-issue. If that's not a testament to how well the Sox are playing and people can't see that and give credit where credit is INCREDIBLY due, then screw them.

It's OUR year!! :bandance:

People have no right to call us cheaters because there is in fact no cheating*. Taking advantage of a bad call or a lucky break is good baseball, not "cheating".

* I suppose I should say "proven" cheating. I'm sure there are all kinds of rumors floating around that the Sox are bribing the umps and other such nonsense. I don't buy into that crap.

brick1119
10-24-2005, 10:44 AM
If Dye doesn't lean in at all, that pitch is Ball Four anyhow. I'm guessing we won't hear about that either. Oh well.


DON'T STOP BELIEVIN!!!!!:bandance: :gulp: :bandance:

PennStater98r
10-24-2005, 11:02 AM
Last time I checked, wasn't stealing a legal/accepted part of the game of baseball?

Even if the Sox were stealing anything - they're capitalizing on breaks and that's what's most important.

PennStater98r
10-24-2005, 11:04 AM
If Dye doesn't lean in at all, that pitch is Ball Four anyhow. I'm guessing we won't hear about that either. Oh well.


DON'T STOP BELIEVIN!!!!!:bandance: :gulp: :bandance:

You know - and that's not to mention that when the pitch was done - if the ump did see that it had hit the bat, the count was still 3-2 and they were doing it over.

jamteh
10-24-2005, 11:14 AM
Memo to Joe Buck and Tim McCarver:

This is baseball and not professional wrestling. The White Sox are getting some calls in their favor, but not all the calls. And they are definitely not cheating. B&M would have you believe Dye hocked out some green spit in the umpire's eye (ala Tajiri) and he missed the call because of it. You can blow up the image all you want to get the "truth," but the fact of the matter is what truly happened doesn't matter. Baseball is a game where what the umpire sees is all that matters.

mjharrison72
10-24-2005, 11:17 AM
Let's also not forget 2 other factors.

1) Iguchi pick off at 1B. This call could have gone both ways. Replays showed it to be a very difficult call.

2) Jenks got absolutely squeezed by the Home Plate umpire Sunday night. The tying run I don't think should have even been on base.

I didn't hear an outcry for justice in either of these situations.

Joe Buck and Tim McCarver absolutely blow.

I completely agree on Jenks' strike zone. There were at least two strikes in the four "balls" when he game up the "walk" in the ninth. The hit batsman call was just as crucial as calling a close 3-0 pitch a ball.
And those guys are brutal calling the game.

ja1022
10-24-2005, 11:40 AM
With regards to last nights Dye situation, don't lose sight of the fact that should have been ball four. That pitch was out of the strike zone and it would have been a bad break for the Sox if it were called foul, and a good break for Houston. It's funny how things seem to work out the way they are supposed to.

Chicken Dinner
10-24-2005, 11:48 AM
Missed calls aren't hitting the ball over the wall......That would be White Sox batters!

TomBradley72
10-24-2005, 11:54 AM
The ONLY reason any of these calls are getting attention is due to the opposing team not doing their job and the White Sox completely CAPITALIZING on every opportunity.


If Josh Paul tags AJ out...the call is a non event. If Ozuna doesn't steal 2nd followed by Crede's game winner...it's a non event.
If Erstad stays on the bag for the throw in the "tag play" at Anaheim or the WSox don't immediately follow by driving in the run = non event.
Wheeler threw ball 4...it would have been a lucky break for Houston if Dye is called for fouling the ball off. If Qualls gets Konerko = non event.
Didn't the Astros get a break when a Cardinal player was called out trying to steal 2nd when he was actually safe? Didn't that change bases loaded and zero outs to 1st and 3rd w/one out?

These are almost all very minor calls by the umps (an extra strike,maybe an extra out)....but then the WSox make a huge play....and they are then magnified. Not because it was a huge missed call. But because we capitalize in such a huge way.

pssondacubs
10-24-2005, 11:56 AM
Didn't Berkman pull a little "gamesmanship" with the Cubs last year and pretend
to take a ball off the noggin when in fact it didn't happen? So Houston has
benefitted in the past.
:rolleyes:
Don't have to go back that far. Walking into a pitch as the batter did in game one for Houston. And if the next supposed hit batter for Houston after that was actually hit, it only hit a dangling thread on his jersey. But the sissy with the leather strap on his wrist neglected to make a large issue out of these instances. Ohhh, if I could only get Rooney and Farmer out here....

Dick Allen
10-24-2005, 12:03 PM
What bugs me is when the local station here this morning shows a replay of the HR's but shows Dye's HPB about 5 times. Idiots.

ChicagoHoosier
10-24-2005, 12:03 PM
...because we all know that of the pitch had been ruled a foul ball, Dye would have popped-up on the next toss and the inning would be over.
Cuz if i recall, of the 5 pitches in that AB, only one was a strike and the other four, including the HBP, were no where near the strike zone. So i'm sure he would have struck Dye out on the next pitch.

Palehose13
10-24-2005, 12:45 PM
Cuz if i recall, of the 5 pitches in that AB, only one was a strike and the other four, including the HBP, were no where near the strike zone. So i'm sure he would have struck Dye out on the next pitch.

That's what gets me the most about people who are making abig deal out of this. The pitcher was wild and it looked to me like Dye was going to get on with a walk eventually.

Sxy Mofo
10-24-2005, 12:51 PM
Close your eyes and listen to the "hbp" if you listen closely, I'm assuming because of the wet ball, the cold, the angle it hit off the bat, and all that good stuff, it sounds like ball on skin contact.

I believe a lot of times, because the game is so fast, umps go off sound and sight. Listen to the umpire about the AJ play, he says he believe he heard it hit the ground. And in the dye play, it's so close, but to me it sounds like a hbp.

I totally agree with the guy who said it's only a big deal if you capitalize on it. Like those bagwell "hbp"'s. You have to make an attempt to get out of the way, and he did not. And they only hit his jersey. But the stros did nothing because of them, therefore, aren't scrutized.


Just be happy our sox did things TO make these plays scrutinized.

Baby Fisk
10-24-2005, 01:01 PM
I'm sure there are all kinds of rumors floating around that the Sox are bribing the umps and other such nonsense. I don't buy into that crap.
Don't even START with this kind of ridiculous bull****.

It's Mayor Daley who's bribing the umps. :D:

Iwritecode
10-24-2005, 01:30 PM
I completely agree on Jenks' strike zone. There were at least two strikes in the four "balls" when he game up the "walk" in the ninth. The hit batsman call was just as crucial as calling a close 3-0 pitch a ball.
And those guys are brutal calling the game.

I think this was a big part of why Jenks blew the save last night.

The ump was calling a really LOW strike zone all game long and almost nothing above the belt. If Jenks can get the calls up, then he's nearly un-hittable.

DenverSock
10-24-2005, 01:32 PM
Yeah, we're all going to feel really guilty wearing our WHITE SOX WORLD CHAMPIONS gear around town. Maybe we should sew some asterisks onto each item of clothing.
That not only makes the point, it's funny!:cool:

Sxy Mofo
10-24-2005, 01:34 PM
I think this was a big part of why Jenks blew the save last night.

The ump was calling a really LOW strike zone all game long and almost nothing above the belt. If Jenks can get the calls up, then he's nearly un-hittable.


As soon as I saw the radar gun showing 95, 95, 97, 95, I thought we were in trouble. The rain and cold took miles off his fast ball.

95 is somewhat hittable. 100 is not. At least in houston it will be warm, and we'll see the 100 again.

Ol' No. 2
10-24-2005, 01:34 PM
That's what gets me the most about people who are making abig deal out of this. The pitcher was wild and it looked to me like Dye was going to get on with a walk eventually.Or if that pitch didn't nick the bat it was ball four and possibly a wild pitch. Where were the endless replays of the phantom HBP on Saturday night?

DenverSock
10-24-2005, 01:35 PM
I believe a lot of times, because the game is so fast, umps go off sound and sight. Listen to the umpire about the AJ play, he says he believe he heard it hit the ground. And in the dye play, it's so close, but to me it sounds like a hbp.

I once saw a documentary about Umpire's training. Yes they're taught to use sound. BTW, baseball umpires tend to be the best officials in any sport. Worst tend to be basketball referees. Same documentary.

Sxy Mofo
10-24-2005, 01:36 PM
Or if that pitch didn't nick the bat it was ball four and possibly a wild pitch. Where were the endless replays of the phantom HBP on Saturday night?


Like has been said. We MAKE these things an issue. That's what makes this team great.

Sxy Mofo
10-24-2005, 01:37 PM
I once saw a documentary about Umpire's training. Yes they're taught to use sound. BTW, baseball umpires tend to be the best officials in any sport. Worst tend to be basketball referees. Same documentary.


What traveling?

Lip Man 1
10-24-2005, 01:48 PM
"Luck is the residue of design..."--Branch Rickey.

Good teams take advantage of the breaks...bad teams blame the breaks.

If Sox hitters don't follow up with converting those breaks into runs, no one is making an issue of the calls are they?

Give the Sox credit, they are doing what the Yankee dynasty teams used to do...give them a break and they'll use it to beat your brains out.

Lip

spiffie
10-24-2005, 01:51 PM
Memo to Joe Buck and Tim McCarver:

This is baseball and not professional wrestling. The White Sox are getting some calls in their favor, but not all the calls. And they are definitely not cheating. B&M would have you believe Dye hocked out some green spit in the umpire's eye (ala Tajiri) and he missed the call because of it. You can blow up the image all you want to get the "truth," but the fact of the matter is what truly happened doesn't matter. Baseball is a game where what the umpire sees is all that matters.

If Iguchi would have given the green mist to the 1st base ump after being called out that would have been the greatest moment in baseball history ;)

ode to veeck
10-24-2005, 01:56 PM
the only thing tainted in these here playoffs is the bull**** coverage that can't seem to focus on the really big plays, like clutch hits and HRs off several of the best relievers in baseball, and instead keep replaying bull****ing**** like the dye hit bat and AJ dropped third strike ^$(&(*#*^$&%&%!(#*$#)#)!!!

CLR01
10-24-2005, 01:59 PM
Yes, the Sox should forfeit the series. Maybe baseball could set up a another WS that would include the Angels, the true champions of the AL.





TEAL

mark2olson
10-24-2005, 02:01 PM
Close your eyes and listen to the "hbp" if you listen closely, I'm assuming because of the wet ball, the cold, the angle it hit off the bat, and all that good stuff, it sounds like ball on skin contact.


A good point. An ump at first will watch the bag and listen for the ball hitting the glove. An ump behind the plate will listen for ball/bat or ball/skin contact.

Jermaine's HBP last night falls into the category "breaks of the game." Every team, no matter the level, has gotten a call at some point in time. Of course, the Astros could have pitched Paulie a little differently and perhaps the result would have been different. They didn't, we put in on the board, end of story.

As many have pointed out, where is the sanctimony for the calls the have gone against the Sox? Of course, if we slow the tape down, magnify and enhance every pixel, and, yes, there, we can see Jermaine blithly slipping the fifty into the ump's pocket before getting back into position and getting hit by the pitch. Why, it just wasn't visible to the naked eye.

Tainted? No!!!
Cheating? H**L NO!!!

FarWestChicago
10-24-2005, 02:04 PM
I'm sorry. This garbage doesn't belong in the Clubhouse.

peeonwrigley
10-24-2005, 02:12 PM
A friend of mine said it best last night:

"If they win this the rings won't have an asterisk on them - just a bunch of diamonds and (stuff)."

SoxSpeed22
10-24-2005, 02:18 PM
The Cub fans in my philosophy class got to hear this, the good teams take advantage of the breaks they get. That's what makes them so lucky. Every champion has luck. I want to see lots of depressed Cub fans on Friday.

cheeses_h_rice
10-24-2005, 02:41 PM
Sox fans really ought to avoid the "bait" of these types of arguments, as they tend to come from whiners, losers and crybabies (the Sox's opponents' fans, Cub fans who are *really* bitter about how this postseason has gone) who only want to take the luster off these wins.

LongLiveFisk
10-24-2005, 02:46 PM
If Sox hitters don't follow up with converting those breaks into runs, no one is making an issue of the calls are they?

That's exactly what I said. Intelligent people can figure this out.

maurice
10-24-2005, 05:34 PM
Where were the endless replays of the phantom HBP on Saturday night?

Thank you. There were 3 HBPs called on Saturday -- all in favor of Houston. None of them were straight shots to the ribs. At best, they nicked a thigh or a forearm or a jersey. Why not provide multiple slow-mo enhanced replays of each of those? Where were the 30 reverse angle enhanced slo-mo replays of the Iguchi "pick off" (and Pettitte's balk move)? How about the missing freeze frame shots of pitches that were called strikes all game long, except when the pitcher was named "Jenks"?

The calls in each series broke both ways. The problem is that Buck and McCarver are actively rooting againt the Sox, so that only breaks in favor of the Sox are considered "controversial." It also helps that the Sox capitalize on opportunities, while Sox opponents usually choke in the clutch.

In any event, "luck" and "cheating" did not cause the Sox to win 14 of 15 games. They're simply the better team and deserve to win. Don't believe me? Asked the vanquished opponents.

TDog
10-25-2005, 12:15 PM
Thank you. There were 3 HBPs called on Saturday -- all in favor of Houston. ...

I was listening to the game on ESPN Radio and Miller and Morgan said it didn't look like two of the batters were hit, and in fact, two of the hitters didn't seem to know they were hit. Miller said that was the first time he had seen two hitters in a game not seeming to know they were hit by pitches. There weren't a bunch of replays, apparently, because he didn't talk about them. If memory serves, a great play by Joe Crede prevented the tying run from scoring in an inning where two hit-by-pitch Astros were on base.

The Sox have taken advantage of opportunities. The Astros, like the Angels and Red Sox, have not. Even with Sunday's early baserunning mistake by the Sox, the Astros left the Sox off the hook with a misplayed pop up.

What irks me is that many of the people writing and talking about this don't know what they are writing and talking about -- perhaps common practice for "sports journalism," but irritating just the same. A Miami Herald column suggesting that instant replay will have to come to baseball umpiring began by recalling the AJ strikeout. The woman wrote that it appeared to be the last out of Game 2.

Revisionist current events.

maurice
10-25-2005, 02:19 PM
Even if NFL-style replay were applied to Josh Paul's bone-headed play, the ruling on the field would not have been overturned, because the replay was, at best, inconclusive. No matter what Joe Buck thinks, there was no "indisputable visual evidence" that the ball was caught.

The Sox total dominance in the playoffs makes all of these discussions a joke, anyway. Only an idiot would claim that the allegedly controversial calls caused the Sox to win 9 of 10 playoff games (in addition to the last 5 regular-season games).