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View Full Version : Kenny Williams: One of the greatest Chicago sports GM ever


ChiSox14305635
10-17-2005, 12:55 AM
Nothing more needs to be said.


KW, this one's for you. :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

jabrch
10-17-2005, 12:57 AM
While I agree with you, we have had so few even marginally decent GMs in this town...
Krause
Hemmond
Pax (too soon given that he hasn't won anything)
Hendry (yet to achieve anything real, even with 100mm+ payroll

It may be the tallest midget in the midget colony, but I do agree with your point. I have always been a FOKW. I like the way he runs the team.

Dub25
10-17-2005, 12:58 AM
Best ever? I don't know but he has done a great job for the 2005 White Sox.

Nyls Nyman
10-17-2005, 02:10 AM
I really like Kenny Williams. But Jim Finks is pretty tough to top.

Realist
10-17-2005, 07:17 AM
Kenny Williams is pure genius. I've been a huge fan of Kenny's for a long time. There was a time when the FOBB's used to rip on KW on this forum at length, I pretty much just ignored them and I haven't seen them around for a long awhile. I wonder sometimes, but not too often, what ever happened to those propeller heads and I really miss them too.

I figure they're probably somewhere beating the hell out of their Texas Instruments calculators and screaming, "What the hell is the matter with you! I just fed you fresh batteries!" Well... I sure hope those "fresh batteries" can tell the FOBB's which club to use on the golf course, because that's they have to look forward to to finish out this incredibly gorgeous month of October that we're having.

soxjim
10-17-2005, 07:22 AM
What I respect Kenny for he is aggressive. Sure some moves left me scratching my head. He was all-ways trying to get the right team to do the job. It appears now that we have it. GO SOX

ChiSox14305635
10-18-2005, 12:01 AM
For the record, I said one of the greatest ever...:redface:

Chips
10-18-2005, 12:08 AM
Hello? Jerry Angelo is by far and away the greatest GM in the history of mankind.

Kenny Williams has done a great job, one of the best.

Lisa
10-18-2005, 12:19 AM
I'm one of the people who used to rip on him at length, and I still defend my position. I don't think he's a particularly good GM, but I think he summed it up when he was being interviewed last night: "I ask for advice from everyone around me." That tells me that this season isn't necessarily the doing of KW, it's all Ozzie. You know that Ozzie is constantly telling KW exactly what he needs for this team. He's been the only major influencing factor between the losing teams and this team. Before, KW was listening to Manuel - not such a good move. So basically, KW is weak, and has a good manager to listen to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing or trying to be a downer - I'm celebrating too. I like to place credit where credit is due, and IMO, I just don't think that anything I've seen is KW.

wxkid23
10-18-2005, 12:20 AM
What I respect Kenny for he is aggressive. Sure some moves left me scratching my head. He was all-ways trying to get the right team to do the job. It appears now that we have it. GO SOX


And remember back at the trading deadline this year? Everyone was upset at the fact he did NOT do anything... which turned out to be the best move! The team is in the WS and we still have BC and BJ who may have been traded had some of the deals people were screaming for been made.

You can rip KW for a few of the trades he has made... but what GM is perfect?

Props to KW on a job well done

NWSox
10-18-2005, 12:33 AM
I think KW has had one of greatest seasons by a GM of any team in any sport. His legacy as a GM is stil being determined, but a WS win would put him up there with a guy like Finks (and Krause - six championships are hard to overlook).

SoxSpeed22
10-18-2005, 12:42 AM
Ain't no Rod Thorn. He could build a team, Kenny did the best he could with Ron Scheuler's team, but that wasn't very good. The Todd Ritchie trade set us back for 3 years but this year, everything fell into place when it could've very easily blew up and we would be callin' for his head. I approve of him as a GM.:thumbsup:

antitwins13
10-18-2005, 01:02 AM
I agree that K-Dub is one of the greatest. Hemmond was a great guy and die hard Sox fan, but he didn't really accomplish anything spectacular.

fox2
10-18-2005, 02:03 AM
As good as everything has worked out this year, the thing I admire most about KW is his class. The articulate, low-keyed press conference he gave yesterday was a thing of beauty. His acknowledgement that, in this business, success and failure are only a hairline apart, and that failure would have been squarely on his shoulders while success is a team effort, was perfect. What a contrast to the egotistical rantings of a lot of baseball people we see these days.

jabrch
10-18-2005, 06:39 AM
I like to place credit where credit is due, and IMO, I just don't think that anything I've seen is KW.

You think OZZIE is the brains behind the operation? You think Ozzie worked out the deal for Lee? You think Ozzie signed Iguchi? You think Ozzie took the shot on AJ? You think Ozzie didn't go out and get Randa when people were bitching about Crede? You think Ozzie did all that?

That's ridiculous.

jabrch
10-18-2005, 06:41 AM
we still have BC

WHO?

Tragg
10-18-2005, 07:55 AM
You think OZZIE is the brains behind the operation? You think Ozzie worked out the deal for Lee? You think Ozzie signed Iguchi? You think Ozzie took the shot on AJ? You think Ozzie didn't go out and get Randa when people were bitching about Crede? You think Ozzie did all that?

That's ridiculous.
Ozzie deserves credit for making these parts a functioning unit (to understate it).
Kenny certainly deserves a lot of credit for making trades; I particularly applaud those that consider and juggle all 3 aspects: money, contract length and talent. The first one backfired (Koch deal) but he got it right with Contreras and Lee (which I didn't understand, until the subsequent signings). I complained about him "overpaying" but when you have a chance to get a big-time major league starter, you may have to throw in that extra prospect - and I'm damn glad he did.
There's always some luck involved. And in this case perhaps Marlins insistence on sticking us with Lowell, prevented us from making a disaster of a trade for AJ Burnett and losing Contreras and McCarthy in the process.
Everybody gets some right and some wrong.
At the confessional, I confess that I wanted to sign Clement (yikes! can you imagine?), and didn't like the AJ and Dye Signings (wrong and wrong). ON the other hand, I supported Crede since inception and didn't want RAnda anywhere near this club, and was probably the most boisterous opponent of the AJ Burnett trade and of keeping McCarthy on this board.

Kenny gets a lot more right than any of us could. And under any measurement, he's so much better than Scheuler (who's one good skill was self-promotion through the likes of Gammons) it's ridiculous and that's been true since he took over.

daveeym
10-18-2005, 08:07 AM
I'm one of the people who used to rip on him at length, and I still defend my position. I don't think he's a particularly good GM, but I think he summed it up when he was being interviewed last night: "I ask for advice from everyone around me." That tells me that this season isn't necessarily the doing of KW, it's all Ozzie. You know that Ozzie is constantly telling KW exactly what he needs for this team. He's been the only major influencing factor between the losing teams and this team. Before, KW was listening to Manuel - not such a good move. So basically, KW is weak, and has a good manager to listen to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing or trying to be a downer - I'm celebrating too. I like to place credit where credit is due, and IMO, I just don't think that anything I've seen is KW. I'll save bandwith and just say "Puke".

Lisa
10-18-2005, 08:45 AM
I'm not saying that Ozzie is doing everything behind the scenes. You're overstating my position. What I'm saying is that (to use one of your examples) if Crede is struggling, KW - by his own admission, I'm quoting him here - is going to ask his coaches and even players for advice. Ozzie has repeatedly said during most of the season that he wants the guys he has. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that KW would take Ozzie's advice. At that point, whose good decision is it - KW's or Ozzie's? And KW DID try to make some moves at the deadline - they didn't work out. Ozzie was relieved, because he wanted to stay put with the team.

It's just common sense to look at a situation that has changed drastically and try to identify what the factors were that changed. One major factor changed - Ozzie. Am I saying that KW hasn't made good financial deals? No. What I'm saying is that if you have a managerial style which, by KW's own admission, involves heavy input from those around you, then why would you get all or even most of the credit for the good things that come from that input? At least I'm consistent - I excoriated Manuel for his poor decisions and influence on KW at the time.

On a side note, I've been away from the board for awhile for various time-consuming committments, and I apparently was unaware that the real discussion I used to appreciate has been replaced by one-word snotty answers and disdain for posters. That would be an unfortunate loss.

swanson24
10-18-2005, 09:13 AM
Kenny took a lot, I repeat a lot of heat from White Sox fans and the Chicago Sports Media for decisions made as the general manger. Now I believe that no matter how talented or strong you are as the general manager criticism will always come with the position. I have always hoped fro the best out of Kenny because he represents our best interests but I was skeptical at first when I heard all the moves being made. I applaud Kenny Williams for having enough conviction to do what he knew was best for our ball club he built this team around pitching and defense with a dash of timely hitting. His coaching staff is first rate and the players in the clubhouse are unselfish. Mr. Williams I am sorry that I ever doubted you.

Randar68
10-18-2005, 10:03 AM
I'm one of the people who used to rip on him at length, and I still defend my position. I don't think he's a particularly good GM, but I think he summed it up when he was being interviewed last night: "I ask for advice from everyone around me." That tells me that this season isn't necessarily the doing of KW, it's all Ozzie. You know that Ozzie is constantly telling KW exactly what he needs for this team. He's been the only major influencing factor between the losing teams and this team. Before, KW was listening to Manuel - not such a good move. So basically, KW is weak, and has a good manager to listen to.


Dumbest...
Post...
Ever...


So, it's his fault if things go wrong, but Ozzie gets the credit when things go well... right? Who hired Ozzie? Who traded Carlos Lee? Who let Maggs walk (ok, well, I wanted him traded for Nick Johnson or Andruw Jones as those were the rumors before he got hurt last year, so not making those moves does hurt a little, but)...

You can't have it both ways, that's simple ignorance or deflection to keep you from having to admit you were a moron. cowardly...

beckett21
10-18-2005, 10:05 AM
I'm one of the people who used to rip on him at length, and I still defend my position. I don't think he's a particularly good GM, but I think he summed it up when he was being interviewed last night: "I ask for advice from everyone around me." That tells me that this season isn't necessarily the doing of KW, it's all Ozzie. You know that Ozzie is constantly telling KW exactly what he needs for this team. He's been the only major influencing factor between the losing teams and this team. Before, KW was listening to Manuel - not such a good move. So basically, KW is weak, and has a good manager to listen to.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing or trying to be a downer - I'm celebrating too. I like to place credit where credit is due, and IMO, I just don't think that anything I've seen is KW.

I think that KW bashers are now protected under the Endangered Species Act.

We need to handle this one carefully folks. :redneck


Oh yeah.....:puking:

nasox
10-18-2005, 10:05 AM
Dumbest...
Post...
Ever...


So, it's his fault if things go wrong, but Ozzie gets the credit when things go well... right? Who hired Ozzie? Who traded Carlos Lee? Who let Maggs walk (ok, well, I wanted him traded for Nick Johnson or Andruw Jones as those were the rumors before he got hurt last year, so not making those moves does hurt a little, but)...

You can't have it both ways, that's simple ignorance or deflection to keep you from having to admit you were a moron. cowardly...


Sounds like a FOBB to me.

Ozzie said KW, we stink, get me a NL style team, and I need pitching.

KW said, OK Ozzie, lets get Podsednik, AJ, El Duque, trade for Contreras.

And KW shouldn't be commended for his job as GM?

Weak Sauce. :rolleyes:

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 10:08 AM
I'm not saying that Ozzie is doing everything behind the scenes. You're overstating my position. What I'm saying is that (to use one of your examples) if Crede is struggling, KW - by his own admission, I'm quoting him here - is going to ask his coaches and even players for advice. Ozzie has repeatedly said during most of the season that he wants the guys he has. So I don't think it's a stretch to say that KW would take Ozzie's advice. At that point, whose good decision is it - KW's or Ozzie's? And KW DID try to make some moves at the deadline - they didn't work out. Ozzie was relieved, because he wanted to stay put with the team.

It's just common sense to look at a situation that has changed drastically and try to identify what the factors were that changed. One major factor changed - Ozzie. Am I saying that KW hasn't made good financial deals? No. What I'm saying is that if you have a managerial style which, by KW's own admission, involves heavy input from those around you, then why would you get all or even most of the credit for the good things that come from that input? At least I'm consistent - I excoriated Manuel for his poor decisions and influence on KW at the time.


Any good manager of any organization is good significantly because he surrounds himself with qualified people and solicits and accepts input from them. That by no means detracts from KW's performance, to the contrary - it validates it and makes it repeatable because 3 smart people will almost always beat out 1 brilliant person. You really think John Schuerholz isn't soliciting and incorporating input from Bobby Cox & Leo Mazzone?

Bottom line: the final decision rests with Kenny, not Ozzie. That it's not a 1-man show is to his credit, and that he deflects credit to the group rather than taking it on himself is moreso to his credit.

santo=dorf
10-18-2005, 10:15 AM
"I ask for advice from everyone around me." That tells me that this season isn't necessarily the doing of KW, it's all Ozzie. You know that Ozzie is constantly telling KW exactly what he needs for this team. He's been the only major influencing factor between the losing teams and this team. Before, KW was listening to Manuel - not such a good move. So basically, KW is weak, and has a good manager to listen to.

:rolleyes:

so apparently in your world "Everyone" = 1 person?

What did you want him to say, "I take full credit for this team and nobody else helped me with some of my decisions?"

How do you know KW wasn't referring to Dave Wilder, Jim Snyder, Brian Porter, Rick Hahn, Roland Hemond or even Jerry Reinsdorf? :?:

beckett21
10-18-2005, 10:15 AM
On a side note, I've been away from the board for awhile for various time-consuming committments, and I apparently was unaware that the real discussion I used to appreciate has been replaced by one-word snotty answers and disdain for posters. That would be an unfortunate loss.

Such things happen when, on the eve of the World Series, one decides to rip the person primarily responsible for assembling an American League Championship team heading for their first World Series appearance in 46 years.

Don't act suprised. :rolleyes:

The White Sox are going to the World Series. Does anything else really need to be said to refute your argument?

Good to see someone stand blindly behind their convictions though, no matter how wrong they may be. :wink:

Chicken Dinner
10-18-2005, 10:20 AM
Ahhh we forget so fast at some of the bonehead things he's done.


Billy Koch
Scott Schoenweiss and Danny Wright as our starters
The huge Blum aquesition
Carl Everett Twice
Robby Alomar twice
Timo
And the list goes on

He did put together a great bunch of starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a good starting 9 players that has brought us to where we're at. But the greatest GM ever...........don't think so.

Bucky F. Dent
10-18-2005, 10:23 AM
Hello? Jerry Angelo is by far and away the greatest GM in the history of mankind.

He's no better than Bob Pulford "..somebody get Basil McRae's agent on the line!":D:

Truthfully though, before he let his paranoia get the best of him, Krause was the best the City had ever seen.

tstrike2000
10-18-2005, 10:23 AM
I used to be critical of KW because of getting guys I'd never heard of like Todd Richie, going after Indian retreads, so on and so forth. However, when we traded to get Garcia last year, the Cubans this year, traded C Lee for Podsednik and Vizcaino, landed Pierzynski, Iguchi and Dye, it was an offseason we've never seen before. I always liked KW's willingness to be aggressive, but this season it was a combo of aggressiveness, addressing some key needs, and willingness to shake up the makeup of this team for a more balanced approach. It was so interesting the moves that were made, the sense going into Spring Training was so different. My hat's off to Kenny for putting his focus on pitching, defense, speed, and upgrades at key positions. My hat is also off to how he handled the Maggs situation, with a great deal of poise and class. He didn't waver and quickly landed Dye to take his place. Now we're poised to be World Series Champions.

soxfan26
10-18-2005, 10:24 AM
I'm not saying that Ozzie is doing everything behind the scenes. You're overstating my position.

I think you overstaed your own position Lisa

That tells me that this season isn't necessarily the doing of KW, it's all Ozzie. You know that Ozzie is constantly telling KW exactly what he needs for this team. He's been the only major influencing factor between the losing teams and this team. Before, KW was listening to Manuel - not such a good move. So basically, KW is weak, and has a good manager to listen to.

To me that pretty clearly says you think that KW is the hand puppet of his manager.

What I'm saying is that if you have a managerial style which, by KW's own admission, involves heavy input from those around you, then why would you get all or even most of the credit for the good things that come from that input?

IMO every good manager relies heavily on input from those around him. KW has managers & coaches at the major and minor league levels, scouts and an entire staff responsible for player development. KW's job is to find the right people on the field and off of it. KW hired Ozzie. A manager or GM that "calls all the shots" simply doesn't exist.

I'm not ready to call KW one of the best GMs in baseball or the city's history, but the team that he built will be playing in the World Series on Saturday. That speaks volumes for him and this entire organization, the man deserves some credit.

Maybe in your absence from WSI you fell out of practice for forming an argument of your own. You might re-read the post you wrote before taking shots at other posters.

beckett21
10-18-2005, 10:24 AM
Ahhh we forget so fast at some of the bonehead things he's done.


Billy Koch
Scott Schoenweiss and Danny Wright as our starters
The huge Blum aquesition
Carl Everett Twice
Robby Alomar twice
Timo
And the list goes on

He did put together a great bunch of starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a good starting 9 players that has brought us to where we're at. But the greatest GM ever...........don't think so.

Going to the World Series will do that to your memory.

If nothing else, you have to admit the man has obviously learned from his earlier mistakes. As for the *huge Blum acquisition*--nobody else was dealing. It takes two to tango.

I'm not saying he is the best ever, but he is damn good and deserves a lot of the credit for this team if not all of it. What more do you people want?

:fobbgod:

"I'd be happy just to advance past the ALDS once!"

Randar68
10-18-2005, 10:30 AM
The huge Blum aquesition
Carl Everett Twice
Timo


LOL! You mean our utility IF'er for defensive purposes, our current DH who we'd be utterly SCREWED without, and a player acquired (like Blum) for NOTHING to act as a veteran bench player, oh, almost forgot, has had amny clutch late-inning pinch hits????

You just listed 3 players of 25 on the current AL Champ roster, one of whom is the starting DH...

Wow, that was GREAT evidence...

Every GM makes bad moves, and the more moves you make, and the more aggressive you are, the more likely you are to have a couple blow up in your face. He also got Bartolo Colon for NOTHING, was universally lauded for his acquisition of David Wells (even though he ate himself out of town), and got Willie Harris, Marte, Tom Gordon, Cliff Politte, Bobby Jenks FOR NOTHING!...

Good God. No GM is perfect, nobody is saying that. Nobody said the Ritchie and Koch trades were good moves. But KW has gotten progressively better over his tenure as GM, and that's what you hope to happen when you hire a guy with no experience into a job as broad-reaching and high-profile as GM...

In sports history, Kenny isn't in the top 25 or 50 GM's. But in the City of Chicago, who hasn't seen a World Series on the south side since 1959, on the North side since 1945, and has had one NFL Championship in the Super Bowl era and the longest NHL Stanley Cup drought, it's hard to find many comparable GM's... Krause is hated, but he put the pieces around 6 NBA championships including hiring Phil Jackson. After that, it's a tallest midget contest, no?

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 10:32 AM
Ahhh we forget so fast at some of the bonehead things he's done.


Billy Koch
Scott Schoenweiss and Danny Wright as our starters
The huge Blum aquesition
Carl Everett Twice
Robby Alomar twice
Timo
And the list goes on

He did put together a great bunch of starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a good starting 9 players that has brought us to where we're at. But the greatest GM ever...........don't think so.

You can't be a GM, good or bad without making your share of calls that don't work out (and for the record, that Carl Everett acquisition isn't turning out so bad the 2d time around, is it?).

Bottom line, KW took over and 5 years later, he's in the WS and has a team and farm system that look like the Sox are poised for more playoff runs. That sounds like a pretty successful start to me.

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 10:38 AM
Krause had michael jordan. A blind monkey as GM could win six championships with michael jordan.

Kenny is the only one to show true passion for winning. That alone gives him the "one of the best chicago gm's" title

Randar68
10-18-2005, 10:40 AM
Krause had michael jordan. A blind monkey as GM could win six championships with michael jordan.

Kenny is the only one to show true passion for winning. That alone gives him the "one of the best chicago gm's" title

How many pre-Krause championships did Jordan win? How about post-Krause championships?

Krause put EVERY piece around Jordan... Pippen, Cartwright, Horace Grant, Paxson, Rodman, etc etc etc...

He knew how to put the pieces together to make a championship team built around a couple of great players, one, of course, he inherited...

Hell, do you guys forget how good that team was the year Pippen carried them and they got screwed on that call in NY? They were a championship caliber team WITHOUT Jordan that year...

The way some of you minimize Krause is perhaps even worse than the way the FOBB minimize KW...

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 10:49 AM
How many pre-Krause championships did Jordan win? How about post-Krause championships?

Krause put EVERY piece around Jordan... Pippen, Cartwright, Horace Grant, Paxson, Rodman, etc etc etc...

He knew how to put the pieces together to make a championship team built around a couple of great players, one, of course, he inherited...

Hell, do you guys forget how good that team was the year Pippen carried them and they got screwed on that call in NY? They were a championship caliber team WITHOUT Jordan that year...

The way some of you minimize Krause is perhaps even worse than the way the FOBB minimize KW...


Minimizing krause... or maximizing jordan. If there's no jordan, there's no championships. Bottom line.

How many post-jordan championships did krause win? How many post-jordan winning seasons did krause have? How many post-jordan not-finishing-in-last-place seasons did krause have?

I do think the bulls are well with paxson.

kevingrt
10-18-2005, 11:36 AM
KW is pretty damn amazing and one of the most aggressive GM's in Chicago history. But when you draft one of the greatest sports figures in the history of the world and keep him for most of his career, Jerry Krause could be the best GM in Chicago history, let alone sports history.

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 11:40 AM
Minimizing krause... or maximizing jordan. If there's no jordan, there's no championships. Bottom line.

How many post-jordan championships did krause win? How many post-jordan winning seasons did krause have? How many post-jordan not-finishing-in-last-place seasons did krause have?

I do think the bulls are well with paxson.

How many championships did MJ win without Krause? Works both ways. Yes, Krause wouldn't have won without MJ, but there's little chance MJ wins without the team Krause put around him. Yes, Krause was a flop in the post-lockout NBA, but to argue he wasn'y ridiculously successful as a GM in the pre-lockout NBA is just ludicrous.

Lisa
10-18-2005, 11:45 AM
Ahhh we forget so fast at some of the bonehead things he's done.


Billy Koch
Scott Schoenweiss and Danny Wright as our starters
The huge Blum aquesition
Carl Everett Twice
Robby Alomar twice
Timo
And the list goes on

He did put together a great bunch of starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a good starting 9 players that has brought us to where we're at. But the greatest GM ever...........don't think so.

Thank you - that's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, I applauded his decision to hire Ozzie - even BEFORE it was popular.
No, I am not saying the credit should go to one person only. I am merely saying that as manager, Ozzie would have a tremendous influence over KW. I give credit to KW for listening to Ozzie. However, he listened just as much to Manuel, and we all know how well that turned out. Inability to distinguish who is giving good advice and who is giving poor advice does not make one the "greatest ever."

Additionally, I don't think any of us, myself included, can say how much or little Ozzie has been involved in the details of building this team. But I've seen a whole lot of Bad Kenny over the years, and as euphoric as I am over the current success, I'm not about to be blinded by that success and see the past with rose-colored glasses.

Again, it's unfortunate that some of you are incapable of making this a discussion and simply feel the need to bash others who have a differing opinion.

daveeym
10-18-2005, 11:51 AM
Thank you - that's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, I applauded his decision to hire Ozzie - even BEFORE it was popular.
No, I am not saying the credit should go to one person only. I am merely saying that as manager, Ozzie would have a tremendous influence over KW. I give credit to KW for listening to Ozzie. However, he listened just as much to Manuel, and we all know how well that turned out. Inability to distinguish who is giving good advice and who is giving poor advice does not make one the "greatest ever."

Additionally, I don't think any of us, myself included, can say how much or little Ozzie has been involved in the details of building this team. But I've seen a whole lot of Bad Kenny over the years, and as euphoric as I am over the current success, I'm not about to be blinded by that success and see the past with rose-colored glasses.

Again, it's unfortunate that some of you are incapable of making this a discussion and simply feel the need to bash others who have a differing opinion.:dtroll: Unfortunately you have reading comprehension problems and think by politely saying Kenny didn't do anything, and ignoring any post contrary to that, you're actually making an argument rather than trolling.

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 11:56 AM
Thank you - that's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, I applauded his decision to hire Ozzie - even BEFORE it was popular.
No, I am not saying the credit should go to one person only. I am merely saying that as manager, Ozzie would have a tremendous influence over KW. I give credit to KW for listening to Ozzie. However, he listened just as much to Manuel, and we all know how well that turned out. Inability to distinguish who is giving good advice and who is giving poor advice does not make one the "greatest ever."

Additionally, I don't think any of us, myself included, can say how much or little Ozzie has been involved in the details of building this team. But I've seen a whole lot of Bad Kenny over the years, and as euphoric as I am over the current success, I'm not about to be blinded by that success and see the past with rose-colored glasses.


what you said - I don't think he's a particularly good GM,
....
IMO, I just don't think that anything I've seen is KW.

A) you have no support/evidence that he was "listening to Manuel" in the past or at least none that he was acting on what Manuel was saying. In fact, given the widely reported points that he wanted to get rid of JM a year or 2 prior to his actual release, it seems unlikely that he was structuring his strategy around JM's thoughts beyond the usual tinkering on the edges so that the roster fits the style of play of your manager.

B) If KW listens to Ozzie, Coop, etc - that's part of what makes him a good GM! I for one would much rather have a GM that listens to anyone and everyone and then makes decisions than one that thinks he and only he has the right idea. If you think KW is Ozzie's puppet, well, I think you're making that assumption with little to no evidence. I'm sure Ozzie said "get me better pitching", but that qualifies as "DUH" type of strategy. I'm almost ccertain that Ozzie didn't say "I think Jose Contreras would be good", or "Hey - the Angels released Bobby Jenks, let's get him".

C) I wonder what (if any) GMs you think do a good job, and/or what criteria you have for a GM to do a good job. Because it seems like your criteria center on the GM having all the ideas, which is IMO not existent in any successful organization.

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 12:02 PM
KW is pretty damn amazing and one of the most aggressive GM's in Chicago history. But when you draft one of the greatest sports figures in the history of the world and keep him for most of his career, Jerry Krause could be the best GM in Chicago history, let alone sports history.

Krause didn't draft jordan. And it can't be that hard a decision to keep the greatest basketball player ever on your team.

FarWestChicago
10-18-2005, 12:05 PM
What did you want him to say, "I take full credit for this team and nobody else helped me with some of my decisions?":fobbgod:

That's what I always do and all sorts of people think I'm a genius!

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 12:06 PM
How many championships did MJ win without Krause? Works both ways. Yes, Krause wouldn't have won without MJ, but there's little chance MJ wins without the team Krause put around him. Yes, Krause was a flop in the post-lockout NBA, but to argue he wasn'y ridiculously successful as a GM in the pre-lockout NBA is just ludicrous.


Basically ask yourself this question:

Would the best basketball player ever to grace the court won championships without krause? The answer is most definitely yes.

Would krause have won anything without jordan? That's a little more foggy, and i haven't seen anything to indicate he would've.

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 12:24 PM
Basically ask yourself this question:

Would the best basketball player ever to grace the court won championships without krause? The answer is most definitely yes.

Would krause have won anything without jordan? That's a little more foggy, and i haven't seen anything to indicate he would've.

Let's see. Jordan won exactly how many titles pre and post-Krause? Your "most definitely yes" seems to translate into "I think so despite a complete lack of evidence to the contrary" and smacks of the "MJ would have won with 4 chumps around him" philosophy, which again - is contrary to any and all available evidence.

Krause put the team around him including Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Kukoc, etc. Krause picked the style of play by hiring Tex Winter, John Bach, & Phil Jackson.

But none of those things really factored into their winning the titles....

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 12:33 PM
Let's see. Jordan won exactly how many titles pre and post-Krause? Your "most definitely yes" seems to translate into "I think so despite a complete lack of evidence to the contrary" and smacks of the "MJ would have won with 4 chumps around him" philosophy, which again - is contrary to any and all available evidence.

Krause put the team around him including Pippen, Rodman, Grant, Kukoc, etc. Krause picked the style of play by hiring Tex Winter, John Bach, & Phil Jackson.

But none of those things really factored into their winning the titles....

And some other GM couldn't have put similar pieces around jordan when he was entering his prime? Obviously every team needs one or two stars, and a bunch of role players (or in some cases, like detroit, a bunch of good players and no super-superstars). Any GM can see that and get it done.

It's a LOT easier to win an NBA championship with Michael Jordan than with any other player in NBA history, would you agree?

Lip Man 1
10-18-2005, 12:34 PM
The next interview at WSI (which has already been completed and sent in to George) will look at this question of who is the 'All Time Best Sox GM.'

I list the reasons for my selection and then you hear from that selection himself.

Just something that some who are debating this point may want to remember for future reading.

Lip

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 12:42 PM
The next interview at WSI (which has already been completed and sent in to George) will look at this question of who is the 'All Time Best Sox GM.'

I list the reasons for my selection and then you hear from that selection himself.

Just something that some who are debating this point may want to remember for future reading.

Lip

Lip - missed you around here through this wonderful ride! Hope all is well with you.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2005, 12:48 PM
Flight:

Thank you. I kept trying to get in but according to George, there was a computer recognition problem. He suggested that I retype in my registration information to see if that would work yesterday and it did.

I agree it has been an incredible experience better then I even dreamed because of the advances in technology. Sunday night I was taping Fox Sports, while in another room I taped WGN and in still another room I taped Comcast Sports Chicago.

What's amazing to me is that by the time this all ends, I'll have highlights from every single game that the Sox won this entire season plus about twenty complete games taped from different times of the year. That's far more material then I have from either 1983, 1993 or 2000.

Lip

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 12:49 PM
And some other GM couldn't have put similar pieces around jordan when he was entering his prime? Obviously every team needs one or two stars, and a bunch of role players (or in some cases, like detroit, a bunch of good players and no super-superstars). Any GM can see that and get it done.

It's a LOT easier to win an NBA championship with Michael Jordan than with any other player in NBA history, would you agree?

It's never that easy to win a title. Which is why numerous NBA superstars have never won one, including Barkley, Malone, Stockton. Despite it being so easy that all they needed to do was add "a bunch of role players".

There is no way that MJ wins a title without the guys Krause put around him and without the coaching staff/system Krause put around him. Hell - it took Krause's handpicked coaching staff to get Michael to sacrifice to the betterment of the team. You think that magically happens in any other circumstance? :whatever:

34 Inch Stick
10-18-2005, 12:53 PM
I really like Kenny Williams. But Jim Finks is pretty tough to top.

I always couple Finks and the HIGHLY underated Jerry Vanisi together. It is unfathomable that he is back in the business world rather than a GM in the league.

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 01:09 PM
It's never that easy to win a title. Which is why numerous NBA superstars have never won one, including Barkley, Malone, Stockton. Despite it being so easy that all they needed to do was add "a bunch of role players".

There is no way that MJ wins a title without the guys Krause put around him and without the coaching staff/system Krause put around him. Hell - it took Krause's handpicked coaching staff to get Michael to sacrifice to the betterment of the team. You think that magically happens in any other circumstance? :whatever:

Ok, GM, flight #24, I'll give you a choice... you get barkley or Jordan. You get malone and stockton or jordan. You get shaq or jordan. You get duncan or jordan. You get kobe or jordan. Who do you choose?


Obviously Jordan needs some talent around him.

We could go in circles for days around this topic, it's a discussion without end. One final question though in the vein of my first question:

If you can have Krause or Jordan on your favorite team... krause running it or jordan playing on it, who do you choose?

Flight #24
10-18-2005, 01:12 PM
Ok, GM, flight #24, I'll give you a choice... you get barkley or Jordan. You get malone and stockton or jordan. You get shaq or jordan. You get duncan or jordan. You get kobe or jordan. Who do you choose?


Obviously Jordan needs some talent around him.

We could go in circles for days around this topic, it's a discussion without end. One final question though in the vein of my first question:

If you can have Krause or Jordan on your favorite team... krause running it or jordan playing on it, who do you choose?

Neither wins it without the other. As a fan I'd choose MJ because if my team isn't going to win, I'd rather watch a team with him than watch a team without him.

But that doesn't change the fact that neither wins without the other. That's the point.

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 01:34 PM
Neither wins it without the other. As a fan I'd choose MJ because if my team isn't going to win, I'd rather watch a team with him than watch a team without him.

But that doesn't change the fact that neither wins without the other. That's the point.


That's not the point... that's your opinion. I believe jordan could've won without krause (you bring up jordan pre-krause - i point out that krause had jordan in his prime, both physically and mentally). You believe they needed each other, I believe Krause needed jordan tons more than jordan needed krause. Again, this is an argument without end.




So anyway, when does this world series thingy start?

Hitmen77
10-18-2005, 01:47 PM
Ahhh we forget so fast at some of the bonehead things he's done.


Billy Koch
Scott Schoenweiss and Danny Wright as our starters
The huge Blum aquesition
Carl Everett Twice
Robby Alomar twice
Timo
And the list goes on

He did put together a great bunch of starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a good starting 9 players that has brought us to where we're at. But the greatest GM ever...........don't think so.

Don't forget that we got Neal Cotts in that Billy Koch trade.

Sxy Mofo
10-18-2005, 01:56 PM
Don't forget that we got Neal Cotts in that Billy Koch trade.

Exactly, no GM is perfect. But kenny has told me not only through his words... but much bigger.. his actions... that he wants to win.

That's all i want in my GM. I don't get that from some of the other guys, angelo, etc. I don't care whether a guy's perfect or not. Just that he shows he'll do anything to win. Including tear a part a team and put it back together more neatly than it's ever been.

Lip Man 1
10-18-2005, 02:19 PM
I'm not saying (yet) if Kenny is the 'best' Sox G.M. (you'll just have to read the next interview...) but I will admit that I took notice of his comments about having generations of Sox fans, many of whom are no longer with us around to enjoy this. And that he feels the weight of those obligations.

That was an impressive statement.

Lip

Bucky F. Dent
10-18-2005, 03:33 PM
Minimizing krause... or maximizing jordan. If there's no jordan, there's no championships. Bottom line.

How many post-jordan championships did krause win? How many post-jordan winning seasons did krause have? How many post-jordan not-finishing-in-last-place seasons did krause have?

I do think the bulls are well with paxson.

Certainly, if there's no Jordan, there's no championship. But if there is ONLY Jordan, there's no championship either.

Randar68
10-18-2005, 03:58 PM
It's a LOT easier to win an NBA championship with Michael Jordan than with any other player in NBA history, would you agree?

I disagree. Shaq is a one-man wrecking crew at the most dificult position to fill. Wilt in his prime?

Jordan played alongside one of the 50 greatest players of all time in Scotty Pippen, a guy who did EVERYTHING on a basketball court, including playing the toughest perimiter player on the opposition.

Who acquired him? Who acquired Rodman, a key to the second batch of titles? Who hired Phil Jackson?

If hiring coaches to fit your talent and filling role players around your stars was so easy, everyone would be able to do it. Phil Jackson is still making mega-money over the runs he had with the Bulls and the Bulls fired a relatively successful coach to hire Phil from essentially nowhere.

But hey, you can't give him credit because he's not personable and he didn't have success in the post-title years when all his talent evaporated for essentially nothing in return.

At least you're fair about it...

:whatever:

fquaye149
10-18-2005, 10:08 PM
Ahhh we forget so fast at some of the bonehead things he's done.


Billy Koch
Scott Schoenweiss and Danny Wright as our starters
The huge Blum aquesition
Carl Everett Twice
Robby Alomar twice
Timo
And the list goes on

He did put together a great bunch of starting pitching, a solid bullpen, and a good starting 9 players that has brought us to where we're at. But the greatest GM ever...........don't think so.

It's not so cut and dry.

Billy Koch killed us in 03, but where would we be without Neal Cotts? Who's to say that wasn't Kenny just trying to get something (Neal) for a relief pitcher who had worn out his welcome in Chicago, would be commanding huge $$$ and wouldn't even be pitching in 3 years? I don't say that was the case, but I'll tell you what - in 03 I was pissed he made that deal but I'm sure glad he did now.

Our fifth starter debacle is well chronicled, but the fact is, there wasn't a lot out there. Who's to know Wright, who had 15 wins in 02, would never recover? He did pick up E-Lo, which maybe he gets too much credit for...but the point is, most pitchers (like Rogers) didn't want to come here, and Kenny didn't have a whole lot to work with despite what looked like a stacked farm system (Rauch, Honel, Wright, Diaz, etc.)

You can rip the Blum and Everett acquisitions, but they are members of an AL championship team. Everett when we acquired him in 2003 was HUGE at the time, and even though he wasn't the goose with the golden egg, he still had a very good year. Like I said, he wasn't the greatest acquisition last year, but that was desperation with Frank and Maggs going down and he sure was a lifesaver this year.

Likewise with Alomar - in 03, it was trying to make a playoff team out of a maybe-playoff team. We gave up nothing for him then and we gave up nothing for him in 04 when he was the same desperation move as Everett.

Timo might suck but he's the member of the AL championship team and Ozzie seems to love him.

Say what you will, but even the BAD deals KW makes (and EVERY GM MAKES BAD DEALS) aren't that horrible if you THINK ABOUT THEM.