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View Full Version : Does logic dictate rooting for the Astros...or Cards?


Eric Bartman, today's top dope
10-15-2005, 09:27 PM
Astros in 5 so they have 4 days off and are rusty like we were in Game 1?

Or...

Cards in 7 so their bullpen and rotation, inferior to the Astros anyway, are both in tatters when the WS starts next Sat?

JBJas42
10-15-2005, 09:52 PM
I'd imagine there wouldn't be as many Astros fans in Chicago for the WS as there would be Cardinals fans if they make it, so that's one reason to root for the Astros. Still, the Astros starting pitching is awfully good.

I just don't know... thankfully they'll make the decision for us :D:

Now let's finish off the Angels! :supernana:

C-Dawg
10-15-2005, 10:15 PM
With the injuries, St. Louis is vulnerable.

Also, if Houston is eliminated, we won't have to hear about how "the wild card team has won it all for the last so-many years" ever again. Which would be a good thing in my book.

scottjanssens
10-15-2005, 10:16 PM
Doesn't matter, Sox can take either team.

Daver
10-15-2005, 10:16 PM
From a scouting perspective, you want the Sox to face the Astros, the Sox lineup at the plate and on the mound gives them the edge.

LuvSox
10-15-2005, 10:19 PM
I'd love for the Sox to pound Garner and his boyfriend Mansolino into submission.

dividedsk717
10-15-2005, 10:20 PM
Let's just hope for 7 games in the NLCS regardless of who wins. But if I had to chose, I'm chosing Astros b/c they seem to match up better with Sox pitching.

Reni
10-15-2005, 10:21 PM
as a lifelong Cardinals fan, I want to see the Cardinals in the World Series.....but the potential of a Cards/Sox series has plagued me for some time. If this happens? I am not sure how I will handle it. I have watched 100+ Sox games this year and have a lot of emotion and time invested in watching this team and have grown to love them intensely.

So, right now....I just want to see where the fates take us..... *gulp* :D:

LongLiveFisk
10-15-2005, 10:27 PM
as a lifelong Cardinals fan, I want to see the Cardinals in the World Series.....but the potential of a Cards/Sox series has plagued me for some time. If this happens? I am not sure how I will handle it. I have watched 100+ Sox games this year and have a lot of emotion and time invested in watching this team and have grown to love them intensely.

So, right now....I just want to see where the fates take us..... *gulp* :D:

Yes, that's tough for you, but either way, you basically win. As White Sox fans we would not take any solace in St Louis winning. Nothing against the Cards but it's been so long for us, we have to take it all NOW!!

Reni
10-15-2005, 10:50 PM
:D: go Sox!

Don't get me wrong, I want the Sox to get to the World Series.....and a small part of me would like to see the Astros go, so I don't have to be conflicted. This might actually happen. I remember winning the World Series in St Louis in 1982. It was a defining moment of my life. I would like for my husband to have this same experience.....so I am tipping Sox on this.....again, we'll just have to wait and see what happens.....

elrod
10-15-2005, 10:51 PM
Astros. Easily. Their pitching staff is great but so is the Cardinals'. The difference is that Houston doesn't have the lineup of St. Louis.

Reni
10-15-2005, 10:54 PM
however, Cardinals lost Reggie Sanders and now it looks like Nunez couple be out too......their bullpen is hurtin too.

Reni
10-15-2005, 10:57 PM
....and I might add that I think Ozzie and the White Sox have a spirit and character that the Cardinals are seriously lacking. While LaRussa is a great manager, their technical style and lack of humor make them not as easy to love.....

One thing I love about the Sox is they seem to be having fun. The Cardinals just seem to be going to work. Granted, they do their job extremely well, but it is not nearly as fun to watch.

dropkick371
10-15-2005, 11:09 PM
It doesn't make sense to root for the Astros in 5, as there's no guarantee they'd be rusty when it came to Game 1, and even if they were, there's no reason to presume that's at all relevant.

I'd say root for the Cards in seven, considering their pitching and the injuries and whatnot.

SOX ADDICT '73
10-15-2005, 11:39 PM
David Eckstein is a pain in the butt, Pujols and Edmonds can mash, Mulder and Carpenter have looked unhittable, and if I ever see another Molina behind the plate it'll be too soon.

As much fun as it would be to watch Cubs fans squirm at the thought of a Sox/Cards World Series, I want no part of St. Louis this year, injured or not. Go Astros!

That said, when's the last time the top team in each league (regular season) met in the World Series? With all of the recent Wild Cards going on to win it all, I imagine it's been a while...

Banix12
10-15-2005, 11:43 PM
Whatever happens will happen. I'm actually not too worried about either since frankly I consider the three teams the white sox have had to face to get this far (CLE, BOS, LAA) tougher teams than either Houston or St. Louis.

Not that I think they are bad teams, but I just never considered the National League as being strong this year. These two teams were definitely the cream of the crop in the NL this year but every other team either just looked incredibly average or just plain awful. As a result I kinda think they are a bit overrated, though still very worthy opponents.

Palehose13
10-15-2005, 11:58 PM
I don't care who it is, but I would like to see them go 7 games.

StillMissOzzie
10-16-2005, 12:30 AM
I don't care who it is, but I would like to see them go 7 games.

Yep, and a few extra inning games wouldn't hurt either. Wear out those bullpens. Don't let them set up their starting rotation.

Part of me would like to see the Cardinals win, as sort of a validation of the season: the best record in the NL vs. the best record in the AL. However, the Redbirds have some injuries to overcome. Plus, it would be extra fun to watch the ScRub fans squirm a little-who do you root for, the Cardinals or the Sox?

OTOH, part of me thinks that the Sox could beat the Astros a bit easier.

SMO
:gulp: :bandance:

Banix12
10-16-2005, 01:05 AM
Yep, and a few extra inning games wouldn't hurt either. Wear out those bullpens. Don't let them set up their starting rotation.

Part of me would like to see the Cardinals win, as sort of a validation of the season: the best record in the NL vs. the best record in the AL. However, the Redbirds have some injuries to overcome. Plus, it would be extra fun to watch the ScRub fans squirm a little-who do you root for, the Cardinals or the Sox?

OTOH, part of me thinks that the Sox could beat the Astros a bit easier.

SMO
:gulp: :bandance:

The advantage of it going seven games likely only really exists if the Cardinals pull this one out. If the Astros pull out a win I don't think they are too worried about which guy is going to pitch first, though it would probably be nice to see their bullpen log some innings.

DSpivack
10-16-2005, 03:24 AM
Sorry, I pick St. Louis. I don't want to see Clemens, Pettite, and Oswalt.

chitownhawkfan
10-16-2005, 05:52 AM
We already won the pennant?

Eric Bartman, today's top dope
10-17-2005, 04:14 AM
We already won the pennant?

Yeah, we did.

Another reason you should be rooting for the Cards (if you want the easier opponent): When they close that roof in Houston, it's a buzzsaw. If the 'Stros get a lead with those fans in there, it could be tough on our heroes.

PeteWard
10-17-2005, 04:40 AM
Sox should handle either team. But as a guy who likes the old franchises, I would like to see a Sox/Cards series. Also, I just love that two-birds-on- the- bat logo. Finally, it's a Cubs' fan's worst nightmare. :D:

shoota II
10-17-2005, 09:38 AM
Sorry, I pick St. Louis. I don't want to see Clemens, Pettite, and Oswalt.

I guess we're the only ones. I don't want to face those three.

Our team strength is dominating pitching which is why STL's hitters don't scare me.

As far as STL's pitching, Carpenter's good, but Marquis doesn't scare me, Mulder won't have the heart to pitch well against us, and Morris is just bad.

The Astros offense is horrible--remember all those 1-0, 2-1 losses Clemens has had this year?--and our pitching will have no problem containing them. I worry about not scoring off of Houston's Big 3 (especially in Texas where our DH is replaced by a pitcher), though our offense has been better than I thought throughout the postseason.

Either way, if we lose to a team from the inferior league, Hangar is going to have some explaining to do.

harwar
10-17-2005, 10:45 AM
I want the best pitching matchups that there can be as i feel that that is baseball at its best.
Also,not that i'm listening to fox anymore but joe buck would blow a gasket doing another cardinals series.

mjmcend
10-17-2005, 11:27 AM
Here is a good explination of why it would be better to face the Astros.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/4998758

TDog
10-17-2005, 12:03 PM
Harry Caray, when he was announcing Sox games, said he would love to see a Sox-Cards World Series. He added, more than once, that if that happened, he wouldn't care who won.

I care. Deeply. But I don't care who the Sox get in the Series. This Sox team with all of its West Coast problems went into Anaheim and won three games. Go figure. While it enjoys the home field advantage throughout the postseason, it is 4-0 on the road and 3-1 at home.

But if the Astros do win, they will be the first team with fewer than 90 regular season wins -- fewer than 93 wins, actually -- to play the Sox since the team clinched in Detroit. Talk about the tough part of a schedule.

As for the Cards, dark clouds might note that the Sox haven't beaten a team with a better record in more than a calendar year. The Sox haven't yet had the chance.

JB98
10-17-2005, 12:55 PM
Sorry, I pick St. Louis. I don't want to see Clemens, Pettite, and Oswalt.

I agree with you. I'd rather play St. Louis. The Cardinals entire starting outfield is nursing various injuries. They are down to their third-string 3B. Their 2B is in a horrible slump. Their bullpen has been completely ineffective. Of course, all of these things are reasons the Astros are kicking some ass and likely to advance to the World Series.

The Astros don't have four great starting pitchers like we do, but they do have three. They also have the best closer in the game. They can't match our pitching, but they can come close. We have a stronger lineup than the Astros. On the whole, our offense is mediocre. Houston's offense is below mediocre, IMO. Everything I've seen in the playoffs this year supports the thesis that pitching wins.

Jjav829
10-17-2005, 01:13 PM
I don't suppose it really matters who we want to face because I can't see the Astros not winning one of the next three games with Pettitte, Oswalt and Clemens pitching.

IMO, St. Louis is the most well-rounded team in baseball. They have the offense to get into slugfests. They have the pitching to go head-to-head in pitchers duels. Their starting rotation is about as good as ours (though obviously they haven't shown it as much in the NLCS). Their bullpen is very good and they play good defense. But I don't think they can overcome this 3-1 deficit.

The Astros are scary. Once you get past their 1-4 of Biggio, Taveras, Berkman and Ensberg their offense tails off. They have the best closer still in the playoffs, though their pen isn't very deep. What scares me is that 1-2-3 of Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte (in whatever order they pitch). Unless this series goes 7 games, and maybe even if it does, we're looking at facing Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte a combined 6 times in a possible 7 games. That worries me.

Make no mistake, we can beat them, but it won't be easy. I think this will be a really fun series to watch if you are a baseball fan who likes low scoring, close games. Neither team really has the offense to beatdown the other team and both teams have pitching that can shut down the other team.

Now watch the Cards go reel off three straight...:D:

beckett21
10-17-2005, 01:48 PM
Logic dictates rooting for the White Sox.

Doesn't matter who comes out of the NL; Sox are going to plow right through them. Trust me. :cool:

:moonwalk:

Flight #24
10-17-2005, 01:50 PM
The Astros are scary. Once you get past their 1-4 of Biggio, Taveras, Berkman and Ensberg their offense tails off. They have the best closer still in the playoffs, though their pen isn't very deep. What scares me is that 1-2-3 of Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte (in whatever order they pitch). Unless this series goes 7 games, and maybe even if it does, we're looking at facing Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte a combined 6 times in a possible 7 games. That worries me.



Obviously the Astros pitchers are extremely good. But they've racked up their #s in the NL, where you really only worry about 7 hitters and pitch around the 8th. Thinking of the Sox aces facing that lineup in Houston makes me go :drool:.

On the contrary, facing the extra hitter will be much tougher on even guys as good as Clemens/Oswalt/Pettitte. Carl Everett is going to be much harder for them to handle than Eric Brunlett or a gimpy Bagwell.

This team is on a mission, and I don't think they let anyone get in their way. But I think the bats of Pujols, Edmonds, make me pause more than the arms of Clemens, Pettitte, & Oswalt.

beckett21
10-17-2005, 01:52 PM
This team is on a mission, and I don't think they let anyone get in their way. But I think the bats of Pujols, Edmonds, make me pause more than the arms of Clemens, Pettitte, & Oswalt.

The Sox have proved good pitching beats good hitting. Our pitchers just have to keep the intensity up.

Vlad Guerrero scared the hell out of me. We all know how that turned out. :cool:

Jjav829
10-17-2005, 02:06 PM
Obviously the Astros pitchers are extremely good. But they've racked up their #s in the NL, where you really only worry about 7 hitters and pitch around the 8th. Thinking of the Sox aces facing that lineup in Houston makes me go :drool:.

On the contrary, facing the extra hitter will be much tougher on even guys as good as Clemens/Oswalt/Pettitte. Carl Everett is going to be much harder for them to handle than Eric Brunlett or a gimpy Bagwell.


See, I don't buy that "NL is the weaker league" argument in this case. Sure, not having to face a DH might help a guy like Aaron Harang. But Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and Roy Oswalt? Nah. Keep in mind that the first two are no stranger to the AL. Clemens and Pettitte built their reputation by shutting down AL hitters. Facing a DH rather than the opposing pitcher is nothing they haven't done before.

tebman
10-17-2005, 04:45 PM
See, I don't buy that "NL is the weaker league" argument in this case. Sure, not having to face a DH might help a guy like Aaron Harang. But Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte and Roy Oswalt? Nah. Keep in mind that the first two are no stranger to the AL. Clemens and Pettitte built their reputation by shutting down AL hitters. Facing a DH rather than the opposing pitcher is nothing they haven't done before.
Regardless of the league they're in, those three starters are tough. But then so are the Sox' starters. I could see the games being 1-0 or 2-1 pitchers' duels, like a well-matched arm-wrestling tournament; one flinch, and wham, it's over.

Now after I've said that, the Sox will probably go on an offensive rampage and score 6 - 9 runs per game. :D:

D. TODD
10-17-2005, 04:52 PM
I don't care which team is the Sox opponent. I am rooting for the series to go 7 games, with lets say a 20 inning classic in the final game. Taxing the winning teams pitching staff as much as possible.

soxfan26
10-17-2005, 05:24 PM
The Astros are scary. Once you get past their 1-4 of Biggio, Taveras, Berkman and Ensberg their offense tails off. They have the best closer still in the playoffs, though their pen isn't very deep. What scares me is that 1-2-3 of Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte (in whatever order they pitch). Unless this series goes 7 games, and maybe even if it does, we're looking at facing Clemens, Oswalt and Pettitte a combined 6 times in a possible 7 games. That worries me.


I was discussing all the possible matchups with my Dad at lunch today. I think the Astros win it tonight. A few things I've noted watching the NLCS:

1)The Astros bullpen has pitched very well, but like you said lack depth.
2) Lidge has actually shown signs of being human, but I feel like his last 2 outings will only give him more confidence going forward.
3) The Astros have been great defensively and made only 89 errors during the regular season.

Obviously you're not going to find many weaknesses on a team that makes it to the World Series and I'm not selling our Sox short; but the harder I look at the Astros the more they remind me of the Sox. This could wind up being a great 7 game series showcasing two great baseball teams.

gogosox675
10-17-2005, 05:55 PM
Pitching or no pitching, I would rather play the Astros. They have trouble scoring runs all season and in the playoffs. If the White Sox pitching is as good as it was in the ALCS, we will be fine.

brewcrew/chisox
10-17-2005, 06:31 PM
I remember winning the World Series in St Louis in 1982.

:angry:


I would like to play St. Louis, but the chances of them beating the Astros 3 straight with that pitching line up is slim to none.

The Astros have a great pitching staff, much like the Sox. I'm just hoping the Sox hitting can keep it up and that they can take advantage of opportunities when they get them.

The Racehorse
10-17-2005, 07:42 PM
As of Right NOW, I'm rooting for these two teams to beat the Holy Crap out of each other.

tifosiv122
10-17-2005, 11:54 PM
As of Right NOW, I'm rooting for these two teams to beat the Holy Crap out of each other.

LOL, couldn't agree more. Tonight I was screaming when P hit the three run shot...extra games are good for us.

Erik

NWSox
10-18-2005, 12:16 AM
Either team will be a good matchup, but you can't ignore the obvious superiority of the AL over the NL. The AL was clearly better than the NL in interleague games. Plus, guys like Clemens and Pettite struggled in their last years in the AL, and now dominate the NL. You can see the same difference with a pitcher like Pedro. This isn't just the DH; it's just a coincidental shift in the distribution of talent. This may not be true a few years from now.

JB98
10-18-2005, 12:23 AM
LOL, couldn't agree more. Tonight I was screaming when P hit the three run shot...extra games are good for us.

Erik

There's no question we want the series to continue all seven games. Even if Houston wins Wednesday, they'll have to burn up Oswalt. Thanks to Pujols, we won't be seeing Oswalt until at least Game 3 of the WS, assuming the Astros make it.

If Houston wins in seven, they'll have to pitch Clemens on Thursday. That would take him out of the mix until at least Game 3 as well. You'd have Pettitte starting the opener, Backe in Game 2, Garner's choice of Clemens/Oswalt in Game 3 and whomever doesn't pitch Game 3 in Game 4. Later in the series, they'd be forced to use Backe in Game 6, or throw Clemens/Oswalt on short rest. That favors the Sox.

WSoxFanForever
10-18-2005, 07:33 AM
I'm posting this after the Cards won last night on the Puljois homerun. I would still rather face the Cards. They have some injuries and nobody is really hitting well, although the bats can explode at any time. You pitch around Puljois. The Sox don't have great offense and the Astros have such deep pitching and a lot of heart. The Cards don't seem as pumped. Whoever wins the series, I hope they are tired out.


That having been said, let's win it all no matter who we play.

It's our year!!!

GOOOOOOOO SOXXXXXXXX!!!

elrod
10-18-2005, 08:40 AM
I'm really interested in how the Cardinal bats respond today. Through yesterday, their LCS numbers are atrocious outside of Pujols and Molina.

Grudzielanek .211 avg
Edmonds .250, with only 1 extra base hit (a double)
Eckstein .235
Walker .133
Sanders .200
Molina .333
Pujols .368
Luna .000

Molina has 0 RBI so his average doesn't mean much. Pujols is the only guy who's hit the ball well.

Compare this to the Astro lineup so far:

Biggio .316 avg
Burke .313
Berkman .353
Ensberg .235
Lamb .188
Ausmus .222
Lane .235
Everett .300

Ensberg is the biggest disappointment for Houston. He hit 35 home runs this year and has done nothing in the LCS. Lamb's average is low but he had a big HR against Morris. Lane has had some big hits too.

The guy who is really suffering is Lidge. Garner should give Lidge a few days to clear his head, and hand the closer job to Wheeler for now. He can use Gallo and Qualls to set up. And if he needs a long man, he can bring in Wandy Rodriguez. Lidge is damaged goods.

JB98
10-18-2005, 02:19 PM
I'm really interested in how the Cardinal bats respond today. Through yesterday, their LCS numbers are atrocious outside of Pujols and Molina.

Grudzielanek .211 avg
Edmonds .250, with only 1 extra base hit (a double)
Eckstein .235
Walker .133
Sanders .200
Molina .333
Pujols .368
Luna .000

Molina has 0 RBI so his average doesn't mean much. Pujols is the only guy who's hit the ball well.

Compare this to the Astro lineup so far:

Biggio .316 avg
Burke .313
Berkman .353
Ensberg .235
Lamb .188
Ausmus .222
Lane .235
Everett .300

Ensberg is the biggest disappointment for Houston. He hit 35 home runs this year and has done nothing in the LCS. Lamb's average is low but he had a big HR against Morris. Lane has had some big hits too.

The guy who is really suffering is Lidge. Garner should give Lidge a few days to clear his head, and hand the closer job to Wheeler for now. He can use Gallo and Qualls to set up. And if he needs a long man, he can bring in Wandy Rodriguez. Lidge is damaged goods.

I disagree. The Astros were 77-1 when leading after eight innings this year. The reason for that is Brad Lidge. He choked big time last night, but he's still the best closer in the NL. If I were Garner, I'd give him the ball and not think twice about it.

Jjav829
10-18-2005, 10:50 PM
A lot of people seem to want the Cards instead of the Astros. Hawk was on ESPN1000 today and he made a very good point that he didn't intend to make. Hawk was talking about how he feels the Sox are the best team in baseball but the best team doesn't always win. Hawk supported this by saying that he felt the Cardinals were the best team in baseball last year, but they lost to the Red Sox because the Red Sox had the momentum. That's actually a valid point. If you look at the last two World Series champions, they both have something in common besides being a Wild Card team. Both the 2003 Marlins and the 2004 Red Sox overcame at least a 3-1 deficit in the LCS before winning the World Series. Each team rode that momentum into the World Series and won it all.

Does that mean anything for the 2005 Cardinals? I don't know. But if the Cards do take this thing in 7, they certainly enter the Series with momentum on their side. So while I know some people would rather face the Cardinals than the Astros, it's not necessarily the worst thing if the Astros do win the series.

SouthSide_HitMen
10-19-2005, 02:24 PM
I am an Astros fan since the 1970s so I have always rooted for them (except 1986 when they played my Mets).

If you want World Series tickets and do not have them you should root for Houston as they will not invade Comiskey Park like Cardinal fans will. The scalpers want the Cardinals in so they can pit Sox fans against Cardinal fans and drive ticket prices higher.

Go Astros!!!

Palehose13
10-19-2005, 03:55 PM
I think everyone is missing the biggest unanswered question:

Would Mark Buerhle be able to pitch against the Cardinals? :tongue:

MRKARNO
10-19-2005, 04:28 PM
A lot of people seem to want the Cards instead of the Astros. Hawk was on ESPN1000 today and he made a very good point that he didn't intend to make. Hawk was talking about how he feels the Sox are the best team in baseball but the best team doesn't always win. Hawk supported this by saying that he felt the Cardinals were the best team in baseball last year, but they lost to the Red Sox because the Red Sox had the momentum. That's actually a valid point. If you look at the last two World Series champions, they both have something in common besides being a Wild Card team. Both the 2003 Marlins and the 2004 Red Sox overcame at least a 3-1 deficit in the LCS before winning the World Series. Each team rode that momentum into the World Series and won it all.

Does that mean anything for the 2005 Cardinals? I don't know. But if the Cards do take this thing in 7, they certainly enter the Series with momentum on their side. So while I know some people would rather face the Cardinals than the Astros, it's not necessarily the worst thing if the Astros do win the series.

"Momentum is only as good as your next day's starting pitcher." -Earl Weaver

Regardless, isn't there something to be said about having won 4 in a row against a superior team? I would think so. Especially when you consider how the starters pitched in the final four games. Despite the layoff, we have a lot of momentum. The day off didn't prevent us from sweeping the Red Sox. The weekend off didn't prevent the White Sox from taking 4 of 5 against Anaheim, including a sweep in the Big A.

Coming back from down 3-1 didnt help the 1996 Braves. They lost in 6 to the Yankees in spite of Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz. The 1986 Red Sox had all the momentum in the world after an analogous situation, Dave Henderson's HR against the Angels. But we all know what happened to them.

You can find plenty of examples either way, but it comes down to execution. The Angels played games 3 and 4 demoralized. By game 5, they didn't know what had hit them. On the contrary, the White Sox executed at the highest level the entire series. That made a huge difference.