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Fenway
10-14-2005, 11:12 AM
I do not understand what the Red Sox are doing with Theo and I am afraid it might backfire.

But I wonder...... Larry Lucchino maybe waiting to see what Steinbrenner does with Cashman. Cashman did a fabulous job in the second half getting the right people in to finish the job. Theo did not. Could Cashman wind up in Boston?

This could get dicey

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/10/14/sides_apart_on_deal/
But that success is not translating anywhere close to the $2.5 million annually the Sox reportedly were willing to pay Beane over five years. While a pragmatic Epstein is believed to be asking for considerably less, in both salary and years, the offer the team has made Epstein is not far removed from what Chuck LaMar, who was just fired after seven last-place finishes in the eight seasons he ran the Devil Rays, made in Tampa Bay.

LaMar was being paid $750,000 a year, which isn't much less than the figure the Sox are offering Epstein, according to an industry source with knowledge of the talks each of the last three days between Epstein and CEO Larry Lucchino

The_Floridian
10-14-2005, 11:39 AM
Bad idea. Epstein really seems to fit there. I wonder if the fact that he wants to start using that farm system in order to rebuild makes the Red Sox nervous, since it might mean they miss they playoffs for a year in order to make it for the next five.

Most likely, though, this has to do with control and not money. Epstein wants free reign, and Lucchino probably is nervous about that. If the Red Sox are smart, they'll let him have it for this contract and see what he does with it. They owe him that much.

nasox
10-14-2005, 12:03 PM
Bad idea. Epstein really seems to fit there. I wonder if the fact that he wants to start using that farm system in order to rebuild makes the Red Sox nervous, since it might mean they miss they playoffs for a year in order to make it for the next five.

Most likely, though, this has to do with control and not money. Epstein wants free reign, and Lucchino probably is nervous about that. If the Red Sox are smart, they'll let him have it for this contract and see what he does with it. They owe him that much.


In this day and age, nobody owes anybody anything, especially in baseball.

34 Inch Stick
10-14-2005, 12:29 PM
I don't consider Epstein one of the top general managers in the game. He is certainly not someone I would get in a bidding war for.

Palehose13
10-14-2005, 12:46 PM
I don't consider Epstein one of the top general managers in the game. He is certainly not someone I would get in a bidding war for.

Agreed. Imagine what Kenny Williams would have done with the budget that Epstein and Cashman have.

mdep524
10-14-2005, 01:01 PM
Agreed. Imagine what Kenny Williams would have done with the budget that Epstein and Cashman have. Well, just because Epstein and Cashman have a huge budget doesn't mean they are necessarily bad GMs, it just means they haven't proven they are great ones. It's like the "If Frank Thomas played in Coors Field" argument to me.

Fenway
10-14-2005, 01:12 PM
It took some guts to trade Nomar in 2004 and at the time it could have backfired badly (Cubs making playoffs and Red Sox not)

One thing Theo did is set up a system where he runs things by an old school baseball guy (Bill Lajoie) and the stathead people led by Bill James.

Yes he did get David Ortiz off the scrap heap but at the time Ortiz was behind JEREMY Giambi on the depthchart.

But the PR fallout on letting Epstein get away would be huge and if the team falls out of contention suddenly $85 box seats will be a little harder to fill.

In any event 750K is pretty low for a high profile job like Boston.




http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/trans.gifhttp://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/trans.gifhttp://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/trans.gifhttp://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/trans.gifhttp://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/trans.gifhttp://boston.redsox.mlb.com/images/trans.gif

peeonwrigley
10-14-2005, 01:44 PM
Are GM salaries widely available somewhere? I'm curious as what guys like Walk Jocketty, Kenny, Hendry, etc make in a year compared to the Cashman and Epstein.

Cambridge
10-14-2005, 01:56 PM
Are GM salaries widely available somewhere? I'm curious as what guys like Walk Jocketty, Kenny, Hendry, etc make in a year compared to the Cashman and Epstein.

Reportedly, Jocketty and Sabean are around the $1 million level, DePodesta is around $800,000, Schuerholz is around $1.5 million, and Cashman $1.1 million.

Fenway
10-14-2005, 01:57 PM
Are GM salaries widely available somewhere? I'm curious as what guys like Walk Jocketty, Kenny, Hendry, etc make in a year compared to the Cashman and Epstein.

the Globe article says the following


This past April, new owner Lewis Wolff extended Beane through the 2012 season and gave him slightly less than a 5 percent ownership stake in the club.

Texas Rangers GM John Hart, who just stepped aside and was replaced by 28-year-old Jon Daniels, was the highest-paid GM in the game at $2 million.

Atlanta's John Schuerholz, whose team has won 14 consecutive division titles (excluding the strike-shortened '94 season), is around $1.5 million, and the Yankee's Brian Cashman, the only GM in history whose teams won World Series in each of his first three seasons, was reportedly making $1.1 million a season.

Cashman, like Epstein, is at the end of his contract, and unconfirmed speculation in baseball circles is that he will stay only if the Yankees give him a huge raise to the $2 million range. Veteran successful GMs such as Walt Jocketty in St. Louis and Brian Sabean in San Francisco are both around the $1 million level, but neither has a World Series title.

And the Dodgers are believed to have given first-year GM Paul DePodesta $800,000 a year, much higher than the $350,000-$450,000 range customary for new GMs.



Dirt Dogs owned by the Boston Globe hits Theo hard this morning

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/Theo_Corleone_05_BDD.jpg

Foulke You
10-16-2005, 03:44 AM
the Globe article says the following



Dirt Dogs owned by the Boston Globe hits Theo hard this morning

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/Theo_Corleone_05_BDD.jpg
Holy crap is the media tough in Boston! That pic is brutal. I mean, this is a guy one year removed from assembling a Red Sox team that won it all for the first time since 1918! Unreal. Any GM in Chicago that wins a World Series would probably have at least a 5 year buffer before stuff like that pic above would surface.

As far as Cashman replacing Epstein goes, I think that would be a mistake on Boston's part. Cashman did do a good job plugging some holes in the pitching but they were holes that he created with his signings: Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano, Jaret Wright, Tony Womack, all received tons of money and all did not live up to expectations. My critique of Epstein is that he relied way too heavily on Schilling being healthy and took a gamble on the "unproven in the AL" Matt Clement to replace Pedro Martinez which was a significant step down the pitching ladder.

The_Floridian
10-16-2005, 03:56 AM
the Globe article says the following



Dirt Dogs owned by the Boston Globe hits Theo hard this morning

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/Theo_Corleone_05_BDD.jpg

Ouch! That's brutal! What does a guy have to do in Boston to get a little credit? Did this guy not deliver the one thing every Boston fan has said they've waited their whole lives for? LAST YEAR???

Man. I figured the guy would have an unlimited line of credit for at least a couple of years. I guess I overestimated how happy Red Sox fans would be about taking the prize.

Is it really that awful, after an 86 year wait, that you don't repeat? I mean, really?

Yikes.

MUsoxfan
10-16-2005, 04:40 AM
IF the White Sox win the WS there will be statues of both KW and Ozzie on the concourse. They would have at least a 5 year buffer as far as I'm concerned

chitownhawkfan
10-16-2005, 06:51 AM
give me 150 million and I'll assemble a playoff team. This guy rubs, and so does John Henry.

Palehose13
10-16-2005, 02:03 PM
IF the White Sox win the WS there will be statues of both KW and Ozzie on the concourse. They would have at least a 5 year buffer as far as I'm concerned

Ozzie will probably be second in town to this guy:

:iron
"Need advice on how to open a restaurant?"

Fenway
10-16-2005, 02:21 PM
There is a part of this story we don't know yet.

Larry Lucchino has always been a big supporter of Dirt Dog and no doubt helped him in being bought by the Globe.

That said we as fans ( and the media as well ) wonder why Theo wanted no part of Cabrerra and made no effort to try to get David Eckstein back.

I do know that Theo hates being in a fishbowl and finding it impossible to have a social life. Anybody connected with the Red Sox here is a "gawd" and I remember what Ozzie said the day before Game 3. He said he told his players to stay near the hotel and to remember
"this isn't Chicago, these people KNOW who you are"

Ouch! That's brutal! What does a guy have to do in Boston to get a little credit? Did this guy not deliver the one thing every Boston fan has said they've waited their whole lives for? LAST YEAR???

Man. I figured the guy would have an unlimited line of credit for at least a couple of years. I guess I overestimated how happy Red Sox fans would be about taking the prize.

Is it really that awful, after an 86 year wait, that you don't repeat? I mean, really?

Yikes.

Brian26
10-16-2005, 02:53 PM
"this isn't Chicago, these people KNOW who you are"

Was the bold really necessary?:?:

Fenway
10-16-2005, 02:58 PM
Was the bold really necessary?:?:

That wasn't meant as a knock on Chicago or White Sox fans. Chicago it is easier for players to hide, Boston it is impossible. Ozzie was terrified that some Boston fans would cause trouble similar to what happened to Tim Hudson in 2003

The_Floridian
10-16-2005, 05:07 PM
That wasn't meant as a knock on Chicago or White Sox fans. Chicago it is easier for players to hide, Boston it is impossible. Ozzie was terrified that some Boston fans would cause trouble similar to what happened to Tim Hudson in 2003

What happened to Hudson? I missed this.

Shafe72
10-16-2005, 05:43 PM
If I recall correctly, Hudson and Zito got in a fight with a Red Sox fan in a Faneuil Hall night club (I think it was Club Q...anyone? Fenway? Cambridge?).

That was my first year living in Boston, and it surprised me that the fans had that much gumption to talk trash when they were trailing in the series...

My brother and I saw ARow, AJ, and Crede at Daisy Buchanan's on Newbury Street on a busy Saturday night (the Real Sox had dropped the first two of the August series at Fenway)...not too many people knew who they were, and there didn't seem to be any trash talking (except by us, which was met with laughter. Glad we were the ones with the last laugh.)
:gulp: :gulp: :gulp: 1 pint for each post-season win vs. BOS!!

Fenway
10-16-2005, 05:50 PM
good memory

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2003/news/story?id=1631986

OAKLAND, Calif. -- Tim Hudson was involved in a minor confrontation at a Boston bar on Friday night, but the Oakland Athletics said it didn't cause the injury that limited him to one inning in his start two days later.

A's manager Ken Macha told ESPN on Monday that Hudson and left-hander Barry Zito were signing autographs at the bar on the night before Game 3 of Oakland's Division Series against the Red Sox.

The players and Hudson's brother had to be separated from several Red Sox fans after a confrontation, but Hudson told Macha no punches were thrown. Hudson wasn't on the field before Game 5 on Monday night, and players usually aren't available to reporters before playoff games.

"I think it's a non-issue," Macha said earlier Monday. "He's sitting there, and he's amazed at what this thing has been blown out to. It's a non-issue."

The San Francisco Chronicle quoted unidentified sources Monday describing a wild brawl at Q, a Faneuil Hall-area bar/dance club, between Hudson and several patrons. The bar's manager, Noel Gentelles, denied the reports to The Associated Press.

"That's all blown out," Gentelles said. "Tim Hudson was here, but there was no fight. There wasn't a fight at all."

However, a Q security guard, who spoke to the Chronicle on the condition his name not be used, called the incident "a big melee" and said Hudson "was throwing haymakers."