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View Full Version : Our "break" in Game Two


elrod
10-13-2005, 02:08 PM
A lot of people in the Chicago and national media are talking about how we won that game because we caught a break. Well, they're right - at least insofar as it kept the inning alive for Pablo and Crede's heroics. Except it wasn't the break they're talking about. Whether or not the ball hit the bottom webbing of Paul's glove or he trapped it against the dirt is not really the issue, because the ump simply had no way to see it. Because the ump's view is completely blocked by the catcher, the onus is always on the catcher to tag the batter on a low-pitch strikeout, even if he knows he caught it cleanly. Why? Because there is no way for the ump to know definitively if the catcher caught it. But Josh Paul didn't do what every veteran catcher does. He didn't tag AJ. He rolled the ball back to the mound because he assumed the ump saw him catch the ball. And that's where we got our break. This play is more reminiscent of Graffy's error in Game Two of the ALDS than Game Six of the 1985 World Series. The break we caught was the mistake of an opposing player, not a bad umpiring call.

hold2dibber
10-13-2005, 02:24 PM
That's the most succinct and accurate description of what happened I've heard/read all day. Well put.

Fuller_Schettman
10-13-2005, 02:28 PM
Well sed, Fred! But anyone who is looking to pick nits will use this as an excuse. If not this play, they would find another. BUT WE DON'T CARE!

Of coors, after we sweep in Anaheim, all the naysayers will "look back on this play as the turning point in the series"

But all of us WSI'ers knew it was merely the start of another 8-game winning streak...

Soxfan35
10-13-2005, 02:38 PM
A lot of people in the Chicago and national media are talking about how we won that game because we caught a break. Well, they're right - at least insofar as it kept the inning alive for Pablo and Crede's heroics. Except it wasn't the break they're talking about. Whether or not the ball hit the bottom webbing of Paul's glove or he trapped it against the dirt is not really the issue, because the ump simply had no way to see it. Because the ump's view is completely blocked by the catcher, the onus is always on the catcher to tag the batter on a low-pitch strikeout, even if he knows he caught it cleanly. Why? Because there is no way for the ump to know definitively if the catcher caught it. But Josh Paul didn't do what every veteran catcher does. He didn't tag AJ. He rolled the ball back to the mound because he assumed the ump saw him catch the ball. And that's where we got our break. This play is more reminiscent of Graffy's error in Game Two of the ALDS than Game Six of the 1985 World Series. The break we caught was the mistake of an opposing player, not a bad umpiring call.

Best explanation/description of what went down that I've seen. Anyone whose played anysport at all growing up is told you keep playing until the whistle/call ends the play.

Jjav829
10-13-2005, 02:46 PM
You can argue that our biggest break didn't even come in the 9th inning. Perhaps our biggest break came in the first inning when Washburn fielded a routine ground ball and threw it into right field, allowing Pods not only to reach base but to advance to 2nd base. Pods later came around on a Jermaine Dye groundout. If Washburn makes that play cleanly we never score and we might go into the 9th trailing 1-0, thus meaning we face K-Rod. Jarrod Washburn's error was just as big as any other play that occurred last night. If our 2nd run came on a simple HR from Pierzynski or something without controversy, Washburn, not Doug Eddings, would be the one getting lit up today.

steveironcity
10-13-2005, 02:53 PM
First off, i'd like to say hello to all.

Am i the only one who think Rowand was safe at home?

Jjav829
10-13-2005, 02:54 PM
First off, i'd like to say hello to all.

Am i the only one who think Rowand was safe at home?

Hello and welcome aboard! :D:

That said, no, you are not the only one who thinks Rowand was safe even though he was out.

Banix12
10-13-2005, 02:58 PM
I like the synopsis. Anybody else find it odd that this is the second game 2 in a row in this playoff run where the sox took advantage of a goof by a former white sox player?

SOXSINCE'70
10-13-2005, 03:01 PM
As I said in an earlier post,if Josh Paul had tagged AJ or thrown
the ball to first base,the inning is over and it's onto extra innings.
So to all sCrUBS fans and Halo backers:QUIT YER BITCHIN' AND
ON WITH THE GAMES!!!!:angry: :angry:

DaleJRFan
10-13-2005, 03:03 PM
Anyone who thinks the Sox "stole" a victory or that the umpire(s) blew the call should watch the replays in slow motion. He clearly trapped the ball. From the front angle, the ball CLEARLY bounces off of the dirt and into the webbing. Hell, there is even a mark in the dirt from where the ball bounnced when he pulls his glove up as he walked off the field. From the side angle (behind AJ) it is clear as day that he trapped the ball.

This is simply an excuse for the national media to jump all over the Sox. But we finally caught a break after watching our pitchers deal with ridiculously small strike zones, bad calls on close plays, all year long. Suck it up, those of you out there who think it was a blown call. The Sox caught a break. Josh Paul made a bonehead play by not tagging AJ. The baseball Gods owed us one and we got it last night.

Fuller_Schettman
10-13-2005, 03:09 PM
Anyone who thinks the Sox "stole" a victory or that the umpire(s) blew the call should watch the replays in slow motion. He clearly trapped the ball. From the front angle, the ball CLEARLY bounces off of the dirt and into the webbing. Hell, there is even a mark in the dirt from where the ball bounnced when he pulls his glove up as he walked off the field. From the side angle (behind AJ) it is clear as day that he trapped the ball.

This is simply an excuse for the national media to jump all over the Sox. But we finally caught a break after watching our pitchers deal with ridiculously small strike zones, bad calls on close plays, all year long. Suck it up, those of you out there who think it was a blown call. The Sox caught a break. Josh Paul made a bonehead play by not tagging AJ. The baseball Gods owed us one and we got it last night.

Indeed! In the playoffs of the past, this kind of play burned us. But it goes both ways too. In Game 1, Cabrera should have been called out for taking Iguchi out on the non-double play that scored the Angels 3rd run. So you could argue Game 1 should have gone extra innings. You didn't hear the Sox whining about that non-call though. Rowand could have been called safe at home, but he wasn't. It was a close call and replays were inconclusive.

It is all part of the Magical Season that is the 2005 Chicago White Sox.

It is OUR season- they are just playing in it...

D. TODD
10-13-2005, 03:10 PM
I would be upset with the terrible waythe angels lost if it occurred to the Sox. But I would be totally pissed at A.J. or Widger for making a mistake that a 13 year old should know better then doing. Josh Paul screwed the pooch and that is it. Any Babe Ruth catcher worth anything knows to slap a tag on the hitter if the ball is ANYWHERE near the dirt. The only way to be sure that the batter is out is if he hears the umpire verbally call the batter out. This did not happen and Paul fell asleep and did not do his job. The Sox then capitalized on his mistake and won a big game. QUIT BLAMING THE UMP FOR THE PLAYERS GAFF AMERICA!!!!!!!

FarWestChicago
10-13-2005, 03:10 PM
That said, no, you are not the only one who thinks Rowand was safe even though he was out.:rolling:

Jjav829
10-13-2005, 03:17 PM
:rolling:

What do you think, West?

http://home.comcast.net/~jjav829/rowandout.JPG

Tough call! He looks safe to me! :smile:

DaleJRFan
10-13-2005, 03:21 PM
What do you think, West?

http://home.comcast.net/~jjav829/rowandout.JPG

Tough call! He looks safe to me! :smile:

I watched this about 500 times on the DVR in slow motion, frame by frame, etc... and he was out. Even if he was safe, they should have called him out just because it was such a ****ing stupid decision to send him.

FarWestChicago
10-13-2005, 03:22 PM
What do you think, West? I think he was out. But, even if he was safe, the ump has to apply the "dumbass penalty" on a bang-bang play like that. If it's that close, you gotta penalize the dumbass, in this case Cora via Rowand. Much like you had to penalize Crede on the "swim" back into second. And, I should add, Josh Paul. :redneck

batmanZoSo
10-13-2005, 03:23 PM
What do you think, West?

http://home.comcast.net/~jjav829/rowandout.JPG

Tough call! He looks safe to me! :smile:

Inconclusive. *runs out of room*

Fuller_Schettman
10-13-2005, 03:36 PM
Conventional wisdom says it was stupid to send Rowand.

I say bull****!

We got this far by playing aggressive baseball. We force the other team to make mistakes. It took all of the planets being in perfect alignment to nail Rowand at the plate. The Angels had to make a perfect recovery and to their credit they did. Big deal. Maybe next time they don't. But Rowand had ZERO chance to score by staying at third base. I have no regrets about this play. Kudos for being ballsy!!

ode to veeck
10-13-2005, 03:39 PM
He was clearly out when I looked real close at the Tivo replay in slo mo (of the Fox slo mo)

Was Cora doing his best imitation of "Waving Wally"?

steveironcity
10-13-2005, 03:46 PM
If he was safe, people would say that it was a brilliant move to send him

Ol' No. 2
10-13-2005, 03:52 PM
Conventional wisdom says it was stupid to send Rowand.

I say bull****!

We got this far by playing aggressive baseball. We force the other team to make mistakes. It took all of the planets being in perfect alignment to nail Rowand at the plate. The Angels had to make a perfect recovery and to their credit they did. Big deal. Maybe next time they don't. But Rowand had ZERO chance to score by staying at third base. I have no regrets about this play. Kudos for being ballsy!!If he'd have held him on third and the next three batters would have popped up and struck out, people would be screaming for Cora's head for NOT sending him. There is no right or wrong answer here. You have to play the percentages. How quickly can Rowand get up and get home? How far is the ball going to roll? How quickly can the 3B get to the ball and throw home? How good is his arm? What is the game situation? Who are the next three batters up? And you have to do all that in about half a second.

If it was me, I'd have held him up. But that doesn't make sending him stupid. And I'm not going to rip Cora for making a different judgement.

Chicken Dinner
10-13-2005, 03:55 PM
Conventional wisdom says it was stupid to send Rowand.

I say bull****!

We got this far by playing aggressive baseball. We force the other team to make mistakes. It took all of the planets being in perfect alignment to nail Rowand at the plate. The Angels had to make a perfect recovery and to their credit they did. Big deal. Maybe next time they don't. But Rowand had ZERO chance to score by staying at third base. I have no regrets about this play. Kudos for being ballsy!!

You NEVER make the 1st out at 3rd and NEVER NEVER make the 1st out at home!