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View Full Version : Horrible Crede Pick-Off Call


scooter300
10-13-2005, 09:09 AM
In my mind the AJ play just makes up for the horrible call that said Crede was doubled off of second. I am surprised no one is mentioning the Crede call as one that robbed the Sox earlier in the game.

Konerkoholic
10-13-2005, 09:11 AM
Looked like it could've gone either way to me. They're not focusing on that play because it's not as unusual.

iwcup
10-13-2005, 09:12 AM
In my mind the AJ play just makes up for the horrible call that said Crede was doubled off of second. I am surprised no one is mentioning the Crede call as one that robbed the Sox earlier in the game.

Not sure what you saw, but while it was close, IMO he was out....

Crede getting double off second, and Cora sending Rowand home are two HUGE baserunning gaffes that would have made the last out in the TOP of the ninth, the last out of the game....

CubKilla
10-13-2005, 09:15 AM
Not sure what you saw, but while it was close, IMO he was out....

Crede getting double off second, and Cora sending Rowand home are two HUGE baserunning gaffes that would have made the last out in the TOP of the ninth, the last out of the game....

Crede was definitely out. It was close, but the umps made the right call on the close calls all night. Even on the questionable dropped third strike, it was the right call. The ball clearly changes directions on replays.

That dropped third strike call made up for the gigantic strike zone Washburn had all night. Buehrle obviously didn't get the calls Washburn got all night.

bobj4400
10-13-2005, 09:15 AM
In my mind the AJ play just makes up for the horrible call that said Crede was doubled off of second. I am surprised no one is mentioning the Crede call as one that robbed the Sox earlier in the game.


He was out. close, but out.

Realist
10-13-2005, 09:16 AM
He looked out to me too. It was super close, but out.

Brace yourselves, folks. There's plenty more close calls coming up with these two teams.

Paulwny
10-13-2005, 09:16 AM
Not sure what you saw, but while it was close, IMO he was out....

Crede getting double off second, and Cora sending Rowand home are two HUGE baserunning gaffes that would have made the last out in the TOP of the ninth, the last out of the game....

Agree, Cora should know better, a runner at 3rd with no outs or a bang, bang play at the plate. That's a no brainer.

cheeses_h_rice
10-13-2005, 09:17 AM
From the stands on the first base side, Crede looked safe by half a second, but when I watched the replay in slo-mo, he was out.

Between that and Rowand getting nailed at home (and Uribe almost getting doubled off second base in Game 1 by the right fielder), I really, really hope Ozzie and Joey Cora can re-emphasize solid baserunning to our guys. We have looked pretty damn awful out there.

RKMeibalane
10-13-2005, 09:17 AM
In my mind the AJ play just makes up for the horrible call that said Crede was doubled off of second. I am surprised no one is mentioning the Crede call as one that robbed the Sox earlier in the game.

It hasn't a horrible call. He was out. And, even if he had been called safe, that wasn't even the point. Crede should never have strayed that far from the bag with the play happening right in front of him.

CubKilla
10-13-2005, 09:18 AM
Agree, Cora should know better, a runner at 3rd with no outs or a bang, bang play at the plate. That's a no brainer.

Cora needs to go.

BeviBall!
10-13-2005, 09:18 AM
Not sure what you saw, but while it was close, IMO he was out....

Crede getting double off second, and Cora sending Rowand home are two HUGE baserunning gaffes that would have made the last out in the TOP of the ninth, the last out of the game....

Yep, yep and more yep. Crede had no idea where Anderson was set up and that was all on him. But, I think he made up for it.

Ol' No. 2
10-13-2005, 09:19 AM
Not sure what you saw, but while it was close, IMO he was out....

Crede getting double off second, and Cora sending Rowand home are two HUGE baserunning gaffes that would have made the last out in the TOP of the ninth, the last out of the game....Crede was out. No question. Dumb play to get that far away from the bag. If Anderson didn't make the catch, he could have scored easily if he was only halfway.

As for Cora sending Rowand, it's a tough call that you have to make in a split second. On the one hand, with no outs you have to play it conservatively. OTOH, even with no outs, given the Sox clutch-hitting woes, scoring from 3rd is no sure thing. He probably thought the ball would roll farther than it did, but the grass is slower than in mid-summer. Another foot or two farther and Rowand's safe.

Orta 4-6-3
10-13-2005, 09:20 AM
To me, it looked like Crede was out, but Rowand was safe.

Konerkoholic
10-13-2005, 09:22 AM
The main problem I had with the Rowand play was that Aaron slid into third. If he goes into third standing, he scores. I couldn't tell if Joey gave Aaron the sign to slide or come in standing, or neither.

RKMeibalane
10-13-2005, 09:24 AM
To me, it looked like Crede was out, but Rowand was safe.

No, he was out, too. It was closer than the Crede play, but Molina got the tag down in time. I don't see why people are arguing about this. Both players (and Joey Cora) are guilty of stupid base-running mistakes that could have cost the Sox the game. If I'm Ozzie Guillen, I make sure that both Rowand and Crede spend additional time doing drills before Game 3.

Procol Harum
10-13-2005, 09:25 AM
Crede was out at 2nd--he strayed too far and his slide turned into too much of a belly flop. It was a close play, but they got him.

Cora cost us big on the Rowand play--the AJ drama in the 9th need never have happened. Not only did it cost us a 2nd run but who knows how psychologically getting that run in might have loosened our tight sphincters at the bat thereafter.

So far, our baserunning has to be a major cause for concern--suddenly it's looking like 2004 out there again. McGrath in the Cubune phrased it rather nicely likening the Sox on the basepaths looking like "confused tourists." Better get our heads together because we're playing a good team here.

CubKilla
10-13-2005, 09:26 AM
To me, it looked like Crede was out, but Rowand was safe.

Rowand was out too

Realist
10-13-2005, 09:28 AM
Cora needs to go.

There were at least two roaming bands of angry villagers at the game that were ready to make that happen at a moments notice for at least 7 innings last nite.

I was so disgusted that I refused to speak, cheer or clap until we got another run. It took awhile.

oeo
10-13-2005, 09:33 AM
I think Rowand's play at the plate was closer than Crede's. Rowand was close and it almost looks like he got his hand on the plate before Molina put the tag on him. But the Crede play, the umpire was right there, in the perfect spot...he made the right call. I'm not saying there was a bad call at the plate, but it was REAL close.

Jurr
10-13-2005, 09:34 AM
Crede was out. No question. Dumb play to get that far away from the bag. If Anderson didn't make the catch, he could have scored easily if he was only halfway.

As for Cora sending Rowand, it's a tough call that you have to make in a split second. On the one hand, with no outs you have to play it conservatively. OTOH, even with no outs, given the Sox clutch-hitting woes, scoring from 3rd is no sure thing. He probably thought the ball would roll farther than it did, but the grass is slower than in mid-summer. Another foot or two farther and Rowand's safe.
The deal with Rowand was that he was too gassed. He was stumbling to the plate. The guy just ran from home to third. Let him stop and he'll score the run in a moment. Jeez. That play killed the Sox momentum and could've cost us dearly.

Crede was out by a comfortable margin on that call. Just a gaffe by Joe. Boy...I threw the hell out of some shoes last night.

Good job by AJ, and it just shows that we've got some smarter players on this team than in previous years. Would Miguel Olivo have had the heads-up to make that play? Hell no.

The only officiating gripe I really had all night with Eddings was his allowance of drastic framing by Jose Molina. Damn...the ball was 6 inches low, and he'd allow Molina to pull them up (framing) into the strike zone! That to me was extremely frustrating, very one sided in its use, and in my mind a little vindication for the AJ play at the end.

:bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance: 4 NANERS DOWN, 7 TO GO!

cheeses_h_rice
10-13-2005, 09:35 AM
There were at least two roaming bands of angry villagers at the game that were ready to make that happen at a moments notice for at least 7 innings last nite.

I was so disgusted that I refused to speak, cheer or clap until we got another run. It took awhile.

If you need any backup, give me a holla.

:cool:

ChicagoHoosier
10-13-2005, 09:35 AM
Crede was out at 2nd--he strayed too far and his slide turned into too much of a belly flop. It was a close play, but they got him.

Cora cost us big on the Rowand play--the AJ drama in the 9th need never have happened. Not only did it cost us a 2nd run but who knows how psychologically getting that run in might have loosened our tight sphincters at the bat thereafter.

So far, our baserunning has to be a major cause for concern--suddenly it's looking like 2004 out there again. McGrath in the Cubune phrased it rather nicely likening the Sox on the basepaths looking like "confused tourists." Better get our heads together because we're playing a good team here.

We can't make baserunning mistakes or give up opportunities and still win many games. We got lucky tonight, but we need to start playing/running mistake free if we want to advance. Every game is going to be close like the last two.

ajtokarz
10-13-2005, 09:36 AM
No, he was out, too. It was closer than the Crede play, but Molina got the tag down in time. I don't see why people are arguing about this. Both players (and Joey Cora) are guilty of stupid base-running mistakes that could have cost the Sox the game. If I'm Ozzie Guillen, I make sure that both Rowand and Crede spend additional time doing drills before Game 3.

Hold up. You can't put the blame on a baserunner (Rowand) That is doing nothing but following orders by his 3rd base coach. Joey clearly waved him home. Crede's was fully his fault, but to place blame on Rowand whos responsibility is not watch the ball, watch your coach (I think that was day......two of baseball fundamentals during little league) he was not wrong. You don't wave a runner home when there is no outs and a runner on 3rd base. Joey was being too ambitious. Although I respect that, but not so early in a game. Regardless, you can't blame Rowand for following orders.

asindc
10-13-2005, 09:38 AM
The only officiating gripe I really had all night with Eddings was his allowance of drastic framing by Jose Molina. Damn...the ball was 6 inches low, and he'd allow Molina to pull them up (framing) into the strike zone! That to me was extremely frustrating, very one sided in its use, and in my mind a little vindication for the AJ play at the end.

I agree here. Not surprising to me that the home plate ump would be involved in a controversial call because he called a bad game all game on balls and strikes. I think it was consistent though. It only looked one-sided for Washburn because Buehrle was in the strike zone 90% of the time anyway, so he had fewer borderline pitches to call.

mcfish
10-13-2005, 09:39 AM
No, he was out, too. It was closer than the Crede play, but Molina got the tag down in time. I don't see why people are arguing about this. Both players (and Joey Cora) are guilty of stupid base-running mistakes that could have cost the Sox the game. If I'm Ozzie Guillen, I make sure that both Rowand and Crede spend additional time doing drills before Game 3.Rowand did nothing wrong. All he did was look at Joey Cora and run when told to do so. He then kept his head down and tried his best to score. Now Cora sending him, on the other hand, was a mistake.

chaerulez
10-13-2005, 09:40 AM
Hold up. You can't put the blame on a baserunner (Rowand) That is doing nothing but following orders by his 3rd base coach. Joey clearly waved him home. Crede's was fully his fault, but to place blame on Rowand whos responsibility is not watch the ball, watch your coach (I think that was day......two of baseball fundamentals during little league) he was not wrong. You don't wave a runner home when there is no outs and a runner on 3rd base. Joey was being too ambitious. Although I respect that, but not so early in a game. Regardless, you can't blame Rowand for following orders.

Also as a coach you'd think Cora would realize with 0 outs there was no reason take that chance. If you can't get a run home with a runner on third and no outs, that's just bad baseball.

Ol' No. 2
10-13-2005, 09:40 AM
The deal with Rowand was that he was too gassed. He was stumbling to the plate. The guy just ran from home to third. Let him stop and he'll score the run in a moment. Jeez. That play killed the Sox momentum and could've cost us dearly. Yeah. Rowand looked like Spanky LaValliere (remember him?) chugging toward home. But you can't pin that on Rowand. He couldn't see the ball and just did what Cora told him. At first I was pretty PO'ed at Cora, but on reflection, it's not that cut-and-dried. It's no sure thing that Rowand would have scored if he'd stopped at third, even with no outs. It's not as if they haven't stranded runners there before. Cora had to gauge how far the ball was going to roll, and he just overestimated that distance. Another foot or two and Rowand's safe. Maybe the grass was a little long. Maybe it was just a little wet. Tough call to make in a split second.

Iwritecode
10-13-2005, 09:42 AM
Rowand was out by a fingernail. It was that close. They had to make a perfect play to get him and they did. I can't really blame Cora for taking the chance.

The next two batters struck out and popped out to right field so Rowand might not have even scored had he held up.

Jurr
10-13-2005, 09:47 AM
Hold up. You can't put the blame on a baserunner (Rowand) That is doing nothing but following orders by his 3rd base coach. Joey clearly waved him home. Crede's was fully his fault, but to place blame on Rowand whos responsibility is not watch the ball, watch your coach (I think that was day......two of baseball fundamentals during little league) he was not wrong. You don't wave a runner home when there is no outs and a runner on 3rd base. Joey was being too ambitious. Although I respect that, but not so early in a game. Regardless, you can't blame Rowand for following orders.
Yeah..exactly. Read Rowand's diary on MLB.com. He says that he was absolutely gassed and had no idea what was going on. He just got up and ran home when Cora told him to. Period.

bigdommer
10-13-2005, 09:47 AM
In real time, it looked like Rowand was out by a mile, Paul caught it cleanly, and Crede was clearly safe. In slow motion, it looked like Rowand was tagged up on his elbow while his hand was on the plate, it looked like the ball entered the glove a split second before Crede slid into the bag, and it looked like the ball changed directions upward (from the ground?) into Paul's glove. My point, those were 3 bang-bang plays, all of which could have been argued, and we got one to go our way.

I blame Cora for the Rowand and Uribe (Tuesday) incidents. Crede made a bad play, but it is a freak play. He initially did the right thing: go as far as you can where you can get back if it is caught. However, because the ball was an absolute rope, the ball was caught before Crede had time to react. Crede was slow and hesitant to react, and that is cost him. I am not absolving Crede (although I should, as he got the game winner), but it is not an error in judgement or read, it was just a slow reaction.

oeo
10-13-2005, 09:49 AM
On Tuesday it didn't seem like they were aggressive enough, maybe Ozzie got them aggressive, but a little too aggressive. Hopefully Friday will be just right...

EastCoastSoxFan
10-13-2005, 09:51 AM
That dropped third strike call made up for the gigantic strike zone Washburn had all night. Buehrle obviously didn't get the calls Washburn got all night.
The home plate umpire gave both pitchers a large zone. Basically, every borderline pitch was a strike for both pitchers. Which, incidentally, makes the dropped third strike call all the more believable because the home plate umpire was CLEARLY a pitchers' ump...

tdh11
10-13-2005, 09:52 AM
In real time, it looked like Rowand was out by a mile, Paul caught it cleanly,

Actually it was the other molina brother, not the one named for a dog, and it was very close as was the crede call

ajtokarz
10-13-2005, 10:01 AM
Actually it was the other molina brother, not the one named for a dog, and it was very close as was the crede call

So it wasn't Old Yeller Molina...thank you for clairfying.

Law11
10-13-2005, 10:08 AM
Crede was out.

RKMeibalane
10-13-2005, 10:36 AM
Hold up. You can't put the blame on a baserunner (Rowand) That is doing nothing but following orders by his 3rd base coach. Joey clearly waved him home. Crede's was fully his fault, but to place blame on Rowand whos responsibility is not watch the ball, watch your coach (I think that was day......two of baseball fundamentals during little league) he was not wrong. You don't wave a runner home when there is no outs and a runner on 3rd base. Joey was being too ambitious. Although I respect that, but not so early in a game. Regardless, you can't blame Rowand for following orders.

I understand what you're saying, but this isn't the military. Rowand had the play in front of him once the ball ended up behind third base. I don't think he would have been in any trouble had he stopped at third, because just about everybody I've talked with agrees that the ball did not roll far enough into foul territory for him to advance. Besides, if Rowand stops at third, there's a good chance he scores on a grounder or fly ball.

Again, I understand that Rowand should obey the third-base coach, but at the same time, baseball players are encourage to think and react to situations on their own. From third base, Rowand could see where the ball was after the throw was made from right field.

And, for the record, if you read my post again, you'll see that Cora's name was mentioned. I think he's lucky to still have a job with the Sox after all the terrible decisions he's made this season, and what happened last night is no exception to the rule.

daveeym
10-13-2005, 10:44 AM
I understand what you're saying, but this isn't the military. Rowand had the play in front of him once the ball ended up behind third base. I don't think he would have been in any trouble had he stopped at third, because just about everybody I've talked with agrees that the ball did not roll far enough into foul territory for him to advance. Besides, if Rowand stops at third, there's a good chance he scores on a grounder or fly ball.

Again, I understand that Rowand should obey the third-base coach, but at the same time, baseball players are encourage to think and react to situations on their own. From third base, Rowand could see where the ball was after the throw was made from right field.

And, for the record, if you read my post again, you'll see that Cora's name was mentioned. I think he's lucky to still have a job with the Sox after all the terrible decisions he's made this season, and what happened last night is no exception to the rule. Rowand had the play in front of him???? *** are you talking about? He's digging for third on the best arm in the game, has no idea what's going on in the corner any more or where the ball is going other than up the line. Cora sends him home. Cora's to blame solely. End of story. The only possible way you can blame Rowand is to say he was never told to slide at third and he missed Cora waving him home from the get go.

Chicken Dinner
10-13-2005, 11:05 AM
Arow just ran 90 yards and then tries to sprint for another 30......just plain stupid. In peewee baseball they tell you to NEVER make the first out at third, let alone at home.

bigdommer
10-13-2005, 11:27 AM
Actually it was the other molina brother, not the one named for a dog, and it was very close as was the crede call

No, it was Paul. I am talking about three separate incidents that were close plays that could have gone either way: Crede, AJ, and Rowand. We got one.

skobabe8
10-13-2005, 11:32 AM
Both Crede and Rowand looked safe originally. Both replays show they were out. 2 great calls by the umps.

Randar68
10-13-2005, 12:00 PM
Not sure what you saw, but while it was close, IMO he was out....

Crede getting double off second, and Cora sending Rowand home are two HUGE baserunning gaffes that would have made the last out in the TOP of the ninth, the last out of the game....

Yep. Crede was out by 6 inches... IMO, it was patently obvious from replay that was the right call, as was Rowand...

Both stupid baserunning gaffs that likely cost us a chance to put all that bottom of the 9th garbage out of the picture...

GoGoGoGo
10-13-2005, 12:01 PM
Based on replays, it appeared to me that every call was correct last night.

Now, if we want to talk about that zone...yikes was it way too big.

miker
10-13-2005, 12:23 PM
Cora needs to go.
Wendell Kim is available!

TomParrish79
10-13-2005, 12:28 PM
Crede was out, they slowed it down on replay and he was clearly out.

wassagstdu
10-13-2005, 08:25 PM
The main problem I had with the Rowand play was that Aaron slid into third. If he goes into third standing, he scores. I couldn't tell if Joey gave Aaron the sign to slide or come in standing, or neither.

And it looked to me like Rowand took a little too long to get up, checked where the ball was before he took off. Maybe Cora should have anticipated that Rowand wouldn't get a real fast start, but I think in that case it has to be the runner's responsibility to realize that he has missed the opportunity and override the coach's call and go back.

.

SOXSINCE'70
10-13-2005, 08:31 PM
Crede looked out to me.I could see how you'd get fooled by Uribe's
line drive to left that Garret (one "t") Anderson caught,but he appeared
to roam too far from second to get back in time.

But hey,that's just me.

SOXSINCE'70
10-13-2005, 08:32 PM
Actually it was the other molina brother, not the one named for a dog, and it was very close as was the crede call

That would be Jose Molina,FYI.

HotelWhiteSox
10-13-2005, 08:32 PM
Both Crede and Rowand were out, and one of the Ozzie kids needs to punch Joey Cora in the face


It was, however, payback for that BS strikeout on Konerko earlier in the game where he clearly checked his swing. I'm sure Yankee fans didn't mind cracking a smile as well, as the Angels were greatly benefited on a BS call of Robinson Cano 'out of the baseline' in their past series.

Tragg
10-13-2005, 08:54 PM
To me, it looked like Crede was out, but Rowand was safe.
Rowand was safe; he shouldn't have gone home, but he was safe. Ball beat him, but tag did not.
Paul probably didn't drop that ball, but he may have. Can't tell exactly. McCarver's "proof" that Paul never would have tossed the ball to the mound had he dropped it is less than compelling, after watching his action here for years.

CLR01
10-13-2005, 09:14 PM
Rowand was safe; he shouldn't have gone home, but he was safe. Ball beat him, but tag did not.
Paul probably didn't drop that ball, but he may have. Can't tell exactly. McCarver's "proof" that Paul never would have tossed the ball to the mound had he dropped it is less than compelling, after watching his action here for years.


Thanks Jjav

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejjav829/rowandout.JPG

RKMeibalane
10-13-2005, 09:21 PM
Thanks Jjav

http://home.comcast.net/%7Ejjav829/rowandout.JPG

Nice. As one can see, Rowand is out. His hand is not on the plate, but the tag is being applied.

Tragg
10-13-2005, 09:23 PM
Nice. As one can see, Rowand is out. His hand is not on the plate, but the tag is being applied.
Maybe - but It's fuzzy at the catcher's glove. Dirt on plate.

slobes
10-13-2005, 09:51 PM
To me, when the Crede play actually happened, I couldn't believe the ump called him out.

In slow motion, though, I think it shows that he was out and that the ump made a great call.

flo-B-flo
10-13-2005, 10:35 PM
Someone mentioned horrible base running. This can not be allowed to happen. A little over excitement by Cora too. Uribe almost , AJ steal?!?! Everyone has to play within himself. Not try to hard and hurt the team. Jermaine Dye bunting in a close game late, or getting late. A little settling down and letting the game come to them is in order for the Sox.

GO-GO SOX.!.!.!

StockdaleForVeep
10-13-2005, 11:52 PM
In my mind the AJ play just makes up for the horrible call that said Crede was doubled off of second. I am surprised no one is mentioning the Crede call as one that robbed the Sox earlier in the game.

Crede was out

stop trying to justify why the sox "stole" away a win, the ball hit the dirt\was trapped, catchers are trained to tag any batter when a call could be questionable. It was a legit play and crede over ran the fly ball