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Soxmissy
10-09-2005, 06:07 PM
Just heard on the score that Ozzie says nothing will change for the ALCS!
Marte in! McCarthy out!:o: :angry:

soxfanreggie
10-09-2005, 06:10 PM
Why Ozzie, Why?

DenverSock
10-09-2005, 06:12 PM
Just heard on the score that Ozzie says nothing will change for the ALCS!
Marte in! McCarthy out!:o: :angry:
Why, in the name of all things sacred, why? So he can walk out to the mound again and say: 'I've seen enough of you tonight.'

ilsox7
10-09-2005, 06:14 PM
Doesn't surprise me. I don't agree with it, but it's not a big surprise. I just hope he either never sees the mound or, if he does, the game is way out of hand either way. If he is actually in the game in a tight spot, he should be on a pitch-by-pitch leash.

JRIG
10-09-2005, 06:15 PM
At this point of the season, if Marte or McCarthy or Vizcaino ever pitch something is seriously wrong. This is supposed to be the best of the best. If we can't get it done with Jenks, Hermanson, Cotts, Politte, and El Duque, then there's a big problem.

Now somebody just needs to tell Ozzie the news so Marte doesn't pitch again.

Chips
10-09-2005, 06:16 PM
I'm not going to question any of Ozzie's decisions anymore. Maybe Marte will turn in the performance of a lifetime in the ALCS, if he pitches, which I hope he doesn't.

ilsox7
10-09-2005, 06:16 PM
At this point of the season, if Marte or McCarthy or Vizcaino ever pitch something is seriously wrong. This is supposed to be the best of the best. If we can't get it done with Jenks, Hermanson, Cotts, Politte, and El Duque, then there's a big problem.

Now somebody just needs to tell Ozzie the news so Marte doesn't pitch again.

Exactly. There is no reason to use Marte ahead of Cotts, El Duque, Cliff, Hermy, or Jenks. That's 5 guys.

Madvora
10-09-2005, 06:17 PM
At this point of the season, if Marte or McCarthy or Vizcaino ever pitch something is seriously wrong. This is supposed to be the best of the best. If we can't get it done with Jenks, Hermanson, Cotts, Politte, and El Duque, then there's a big problem.

Now somebody just needs to tell Ozzie the news so Marte doesn't pitch again.
I agree with what you are saying, but I don't see why Marte pitched at all in that last game. He's obviously our last choice out of that pen and Cotts was still available. We won the game, but Ozzie's decision there was ridiculous.

HotelWhiteSox
10-09-2005, 06:17 PM
:thud: :tsk: :kukoo: :mg: :duck: :dunno: :cower: :bs: :drunken:

gf2020
10-09-2005, 06:18 PM
I'm gonna be in the minority here, but I have to agree with this decision. I love McCarthy, but we do not need six starting pitchers on the post-season roster. Hopefully, the 11th man in the bulpen doesn't see the field in this series and will only be used in an emergency, which is more conducive to someone who can get ready quickly. He makes the other manager think about things at the very least.

Ozzie has pushed the right buttons nearly the entire season, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

TheArmyOfNeems
10-09-2005, 06:22 PM
:thud: :tsk: :kukoo: :mg: :duck: :dunno: :cower: :bs: :drunken:

well said

chisoxmike
10-09-2005, 06:23 PM
For some reason, it doesnt surprise me. I can't beileve how many chances and opportunities Marte has been given this season, its amazing really. But, when you think about it, you need two lefties in the bullpen, that is, what I think is the only reason why Marte is on the roster.

McCarthy will have his day. I think he is a lock on the opening day roster in 2006.

cheeses_h_rice
10-09-2005, 06:24 PM
Put me on the record as saying:

WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TRYING TO DO, OZZIE?!?

Hangar18
10-09-2005, 06:25 PM
I agree with what you are saying, but I don't see why Marte pitched at all in that last game. He's obviously our last choice out of that pen and Cotts was still available. We won the game, but Ozzie's decision there was ridiculous.

When Ozz brought in Damaso Marte, I pulled my car over and SCREAMED. LOUD. Why he brought in a pitcher who has been terrible down the stretch, into one of the biggest games of the year, with only a one-run lead, knowing he had other options in his bullpen .............was beyond me. Imagine my anger when the first batter immediately Singled. Then couldnt find the plate and walked a batter. Then Farmer and Rooney saying he looked clueless out there ......and walked yet another batter. We deserved to lose that game because of that momentary lapse of judgement. Hate to say this, but we won that game In spite of Ozzie.

Chisox003
10-09-2005, 06:27 PM
Exactly. There is no reason to use Marte ahead of Cotts, El Duque, Cliff, Hermy, or Jenks. That's 5 guys.
The Astros/Braves game is in the 17th inning, and Roger Clemens is in...

Ozzie has a tendency to bring in a guy like Cotts or Politte for 1/3 or 2/3 of an inning, and pull him quickly...If the Sox get into a game that goes 14, 15, 16 innings, we could be in trouble...

I agreed with the decision last week to leave off B Mac for Marte (El Duque/Viz should have made it without question), but this one I just don't get...:?:

ilsox7
10-09-2005, 06:28 PM
When Ozz brought in Damaso Marte, I pulled my car over and SCREAMED. LOUD. Why he brought in a pitcher who has been terrible down the stretch, into one of the biggest games of the year, with only a one-run lead, knowing he had other options in his bullpen .............was beyond me. Imagine my anger when the first batter immediately Singled. Then couldnt find the plate and walked a batter. Then Farmer and Rooney saying he looked clueless out there ......and walked yet another batter. We deserved to lose that game because of that momentary lapse of judgement. Hate to say this, but we won that game In spite of Ozzie.

I wasn't surprised Ozzie brought him in (and I surely was not happy). I was more surprised he left him in after the 1st walk. Marte actually had the first hitter down to a 1-2 count, but then he hung some lazy-ass curve up there that was roped into right for a hit.

Again, Marte should see ZERO meaningful hitters, but if he sees one, it's one bad hitter and you're out. Maybe even less than that.

BainesHOF
10-09-2005, 06:29 PM
Marte has no business being on the ALCS roster. It's Ozzie being stubborn, just as he was in Game 3 in Boston. There's no defense of this whatsoever.

ilsox7
10-09-2005, 06:31 PM
The bottom line is he is on the roster. There is no need for another long, drawn out debate about this. What I am more curious about is how Sox fans will react at Sox Park if he is brought in. Even though I cannot stand him, I really hope Sox fans cheer him. Marte obviously has a very, very fragile psyche. So much so that getting booed by 40,000 people in your home park may just remove any chance of his being effective. So, if you're at a game when he is brought in, give him some applause.

DenverSock
10-09-2005, 08:46 PM
The bottom line is he is on the roster. There is no need for another long, drawn out debate about this. What I am more curious about is how Sox fans will react at Sox Park if he is brought in. Even though I cannot stand him, I really hope Sox fans cheer him. Marte obviously has a very, very fragile psyche. So much so that getting booed by 40,000 people in your home park may just remove any chance of his being effective. So, if you're at a game when he is brought in, give him some applause.

So why can't BMac come out off the bullpen for an inning or two. They moved El Duque into the bullpen with good effect.

ilsox7
10-09-2005, 08:52 PM
So why can't BMac come out off the bullpen for an inning or two. They moved El Duque into the bullpen with good effect.

As I said, this has been debated to no end here. Nothing we say or do will change it. I am more concerned now about the reaction Marte will get if he is brought in a game, but maybe no one else cares about that.

LongLiveFisk
10-09-2005, 08:56 PM
Maybe Ozzie lost a bet to Marte. Or maybe Marte saved one of Ozzie's kids' lives with the heimlich manuever. I am also annoyed by this decision. :angry:

At any rate, though, hopefully the outcome is the same....SOX WIN!!

LongLiveFisk
10-09-2005, 08:57 PM
The bottom line is he is on the roster. There is no need for another long, drawn out debate about this. What I am more curious about is how Sox fans will react at Sox Park if he is brought in. Even though I cannot stand him, I really hope Sox fans cheer him. Marte obviously has a very, very fragile psyche. So much so that getting booed by 40,000 people in your home park may just remove any chance of his being effective. So, if you're at a game when he is brought in, give him some applause.

This much I do agree with. Definitely do not boo the man as he's jogging in from the bullpen. I can't see how that will help whatsoever.

BeviBall!
10-09-2005, 08:59 PM
Oz has until Tuesday to submit his final roster... this better not be true.

Domeshot17
10-09-2005, 08:59 PM
My guess is this is Ozzies thinking, not mine, but ozzies.


The advantage of having 2 lefties in the pen versus one is this: Both Anaheim and New York have heavy left handed lineups, talking, depending on the day, 4-6 left handed bats in the line up. I know some people are, IF we go into a game like the stros and braves, wont happen, 13 innings maybbbbeeee, not 18.

While I don't agree with it, Ozzie has been preparing for this all year long, and maybe, JUST MAYBE, Marte comes in versus Giambi and Tino, maybe Bernie, doesnt get squeezed, and works a few outs.

Lefties hitters ( or switch) in tonights lineup for both teams = 10 Anaheim ( Figgins Switch, Anderson lefty, Erstad lefty, Rivera Lefty, Kennedy Lefty). New York ( Giambi Lefty, Cano LEfty, Williams Switch, Posada Switch, Crosby Lefty)
The way Ozzie loves to burn relievers, especially Cotts, the need for another Left Handed Reliever is there, although I wish we had a 2nd one who could get someone out.

Soxboyrob
10-09-2005, 09:08 PM
I'm gonna be in the minority here, but I have to agree with this decision. I love McCarthy, but we do not need six starting pitchers on the post-season roster. Hopefully, the 11th man in the bulpen doesn't see the field in this series and will only be used in an emergency, which is more conducive to someone who can get ready quickly. He makes the other manager think about things at the very least.

Ozzie has pushed the right buttons nearly the entire season, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

We won in spite of Ozzie and his choice to use Marte. You can never have too many good pitchers on a playoff roster, be it starters or relievers. What if we go 12, 15 or 18 innings in a crucial game? Who do you prefer to have on your roster? A guy that puts almost two men on base per inning, or McCarthy....a guy who's shown he can basically shut down any team in baseball for an entire game?

PaulDrake
10-09-2005, 09:12 PM
When Ozz brought in Damaso Marte, I pulled my car over and SCREAMED. LOUD. Why he brought in a pitcher who has been terrible down the stretch, into one of the biggest games of the year, with only a one-run lead, knowing he had other options in his bullpen .............was beyond me. Imagine my anger when the first batter immediately Singled. Then couldnt find the plate and walked a batter. Then Farmer and Rooney saying he looked clueless out there ......and walked yet another batter. We deserved to lose that game because of that momentary lapse of judgement. Hate to say this, but we won that game In spite of Ozzie. I screamed "No!" at the top of my lungs and was quickly hushed by my wife. We live in an apartment complex and we're supposed to be "that quiet middle aged couple." Yes I agreee. We won in spite of Ozzie. Hey I hope we go all the way so Ozzie can thumb his nose at all the critics and naysayers. In the meantime I've found myself saying many times this year "Ozzie why are you doing this?" Something similar to that anyway.

Soxboyrob
10-09-2005, 09:15 PM
My guess is this is Ozzies thinking, not mine, but ozzies.
While I don't agree with it, Ozzie has been preparing for this all year long, and maybe, JUST MAYBE, Marte comes in versus Giambi and Tino, maybe Bernie, doesnt get squeezed, and works a few outs.

Lefties hitters ( or switch) in tonights lineup for both teams = 10 Anaheim ( Figgins Switch, Anderson lefty, Erstad lefty, Rivera Lefty, Kennedy Lefty). New York ( Giambi Lefty, Cano LEfty, Williams Switch, Posada Switch, Crosby Lefty)
The way Ozzie loves to burn relievers, especially Cotts, the need for another Left Handed Reliever is there, although I wish we had a 2nd one who could get someone out.

Marte vs. lefties.....389 OBP
McCarthy vs. lefties.....258 OBP

Pretend McCarthy's a lefty and bring him in against lefties. Anything is better than Marte. This lefty/righty thing is a bull**** excuse to bring Marte and not have to answer at to WHY? Marte is not major league material, regardless of which arm throws the damn ball.

RowanDye
10-09-2005, 09:26 PM
If Ozzie will only be using Marte against lefties it makes some sense, Marte has done well against all of the lefties on the Angels and Yankees except for Garrett Anderson (4 RBI ...but no HR) Apparently Ozzie still has some faith in Dumbaso. With the emergence of El Duque's relief efforts B-Mac doesn't really have a spot on this team right now. Jenks, Cotts, Politte, Duque, Hermanson can all go 2+ innings and Garland hasn't even made a start yet. I just hope Ozzie doesn't let Marte load the bases again....

doublem23
10-09-2005, 09:27 PM
Bla bla bla... All the geniuses on this site couldn't fathom how Ozzie would take El Duque over McCarthy a few weeks ago, and basically, had Hernandez not been on the roster, um, we would have played a game yesterday, at very least.

mike squires
10-09-2005, 09:31 PM
I screamed "No!" at the top of my lungs and was quickly hushed by my wife. We live in an apartment complex and we're supposed to be "that quiet middle aged couple." Yes I agreee. We won in spite of Ozzie. Hey I hope we go all the way so Ozzie can thumb his nose at all the critics and naysayers. In the meantime I've found myself saying many times this year "Ozzie why are you doing this?" Something similar to that anyway.

So, what did she do to get you to "hush up" when El Duque got Damon?:D:

Soxboyrob
10-09-2005, 09:32 PM
Bla bla bla... All the geniuses on this site couldn't fathom how Ozzie would take El Duque over McCarthy a few weeks ago, and basically, had Hernandez not been on the roster, um, we would have played a game yesterday, at very least.

Perhaps if Marte isn't on the roster, Duque wouldn't have even been needed. Don't we have Cotts, Hermie and Politte down in the pen? Or did they miss the plane to Boston? I've heard a lot of analysis about the choice of rosterees, but rarely has that analysis included criticism of Ozzie's having brought Duque to the playoffs. 99% of it has been anti-Dumbasso/pro-McCarthy.

mike squires
10-09-2005, 09:32 PM
For some reason, it doesnt surprise me. I can't beileve how many chances and opportunities Marte has been given this season, its amazing really. But, when you think about it, you need two lefties in the bullpen, that is, what I think is the only reason why Marte is on the roster.

McCarthy will have his day. I think he is a lock on the opening day roster in 2006.

You said it Mike. We need two lefties in that bullpen. Mare has the abilityt o go out there and have a good inning. They'll be watching him closely however...one walk and he's got to beout of there.

FarWestChicago
10-09-2005, 09:48 PM
Perhaps if Marte isn't on the roster, Duque wouldn't have even been needed.Yes, and if Ozzie's grandmother hadn't met his grandfather, Ozzie's mother would never have been born and Ozzie wouldn't have been born and wouldn't be our manager and some smart guy like you would be and the Sox would have swept Boston instead of losing zero games. :redneck

LongLiveFisk
10-09-2005, 09:52 PM
Yes, and if Ozzie's grandmother hadn't met his grandfather, Ozzie's mother would never have been born and Ozzie wouldn't have been born and wouldn't be our manager and some smart guy like you would be and the Sox would have swept Boston instead of losing zero games. :redneck

LOL...how does that saying go..."If if's and but's were candy and nuts..." :tongue:

PaulDrake
10-09-2005, 09:56 PM
Bla bla bla... All the geniuses on this site couldn't fathom how Ozzie would take El Duque over McCarthy a few weeks ago, and basically, had Hernandez not been on the roster, um, we would have played a game yesterday, at very least. I had absolutely no problem with El Duque being on the playoff roster. Marte is another story.

Revolution29
10-09-2005, 09:59 PM
I know that some (in the vast minority) are using the reasoning that, because McCarthy is a starter, it is wise to have one extra reliever, even if it is Marte. But, after seeing Houston and Atlanta go 18 innings, someone tell me what is wrong with having an extra starter, especially one who can get leftys out better than the lefty.

Soxboyrob
10-09-2005, 10:02 PM
I know that some (in the vast minority) are using the reasoning that, because McCarthy is a starter, it is wise to have one extra reliever, even if it is Marte. But, after seeing Houston and Atlanta go 18 innings, someone tell me what is wrong with having an extra starter, especially one who can get leftys out better than the lefty.

That's really my only point. It's not as if Marte was good all season and now he's just going through a rough patch. He was bad all year, in both pressure and non-pressure situations. His WHIP is close to 2, and that's been amassed while facing an inordinate amount of lefties. I've not yet seen a solid reason for keeping him over Brandon on the playoff roster. Oh wait, I think Damaso just walked another guy....

chisoxmike
10-09-2005, 10:06 PM
You said it Mike. We need two lefties in that bullpen. Mare has the abilityt o go out there and have a good inning. They'll be watching him closely however...one walk and he's got to beout of there.

Yeah, I wonder if Marte is going to have a short leash in the ALCS. We'll soon find out.

Banix12
10-09-2005, 10:09 PM
Personally I didn't really care a whole bunch if McCarthy made it on, I just wanted Marte off. They could have replaced him with a baseball playing chicken for all I cared.

Looking forward to game 3 when Marte enters the game, because unless there is a blowout there is no way he comes into games 1 or 2

antitwins13
10-09-2005, 10:09 PM
This Thread SUCKS!!!

We're in the ALCS have some faith in Ozzie.

LuvSox
10-09-2005, 10:32 PM
Somebody else already said it: One southpaw in the bullpen is not enough. I don't like Marte either folks, but it's Ozzie's decision.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-09-2005, 10:41 PM
Somebody else already said it: One southpaw in the bullpen is not enough. I don't like Marte either folks, but it's Ozzie's decision.

Marte is strictly a decoy. If Ozzie could fit three guys warming up simultaneously in the bullpen, he would do it.

:cool:

:hawk
"There's movement in the Sox 'pen... it's Politte the righthander, Marte the lefthander... and *** Cotts the second righthander up in Ozzie's bullpen?"
:?:

LuvSox
10-09-2005, 10:44 PM
Marte is strictly a decoy. If Ozzie could fit three guys warming up simultaneously in the bullpen, he would do it.

:cool:

:hawk
"There's movement in the Sox 'pen... it's Politte the righthander, Marte the lefthander... and *** Cotts the second righthander up in Ozzie's bullpen?"
:?:

You think like Ozzie does. Do you have one of those girl-watching-benches on your porch? :bandance:

dlee120
10-09-2005, 10:56 PM
Marte = Million dollar arm and a 10 cent brain. What is the use of getting a lefty lefty matchup if he is just going to walk em anyhow? bring somebody that can throw a strike or 3.

Dick Allen
10-09-2005, 11:16 PM
I don't understand the reasoning that we need another lefty out of the bullpen. MARTE CAN"T GET LEFTIES OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

PaleHoseGeorge
10-09-2005, 11:22 PM
I don't understand the reasoning that we need another lefty out of the bullpen. MARTE CAN"T GET LEFTIES OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!

He's a decoy. Ozzie has another lefty in the 'pen for the opposing manager to consider when making his moves.

It's the playoffs and the Sox have at most 14 games left to play. We don't need 25 guys to handle such a small workload. Guys like Marte, Vizcaino, Ozuna, and Blum are strictly window dressing at this point. Ozzie would be an idiot to use ANY of them from here on out.

DenverSock
10-09-2005, 11:23 PM
I don't understand the reasoning that we need another lefty out of the bullpen. MARTE CAN"T GET LEFTIES OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!


He can, however, walk them.
:rolleyes:

jehosaphat
10-09-2005, 11:23 PM
My guess is this is Ozzies thinking, not mine, but ozzies.


The advantage of having 2 lefties in the pen versus one is this: Both Anaheim and New York have heavy left handed lineups, talking, depending on the day, 4-6 left handed bats in the line up. ...... The way Ozzie loves to burn relievers, especially Cotts, the need for another Left Handed Reliever is there

You captured it well. Ozzie must also think that Marte can come out of the pen and throw strikes. I don't, but Ozzie must. Ozzie and Coop have not lost confidence in him.

Obviously, fans at the Cell should not boo Marte - he lacks confidence and booing him won't help in this regard. But I think it is a sad commentary that he's so mentally fragile that the manager is afraid to use him at home, presumably because if he gets booed his feelings will get hurt and he won't be able to concentrate, and so on. This is a big stage and it calls for players who are mentally tough.

I've decided to be optimistic. I've decided to go with the notion that if Ozzie and Coop think Marte can be productive, they know the players the best and there is a reasonable expectation he can come on and challenge hitters like he use to be able to do.

With all that said, if I were managing the Yanks or the Angels, I'd sure have my players taking the first couple of pitches Marte throws.

flo-B-flo
10-09-2005, 11:38 PM
Bla bla bla... All the geniuses on this site couldn't fathom how Ozzie would take El Duque over McCarthy a few weeks ago, and basically, had Hernandez not been on the roster, um, we would have played a game yesterday, at very least. There is a rhyme and reason to OZ thinking. I just don't know what it is. It's all on him. He'll take the heat like a leader should. He got the Sox this far. It's only fair that we let him make this call cause he's the manager. Than rip him to shreds if it comes up wrong. I look forward to reading it. Unless it works.

Banix12
10-09-2005, 11:51 PM
He's a decoy. Ozzie has another lefty in the 'pen for the opposing manager to consider when making his moves.

It's the playoffs and the Sox have at most 14 games left to play. We don't need 25 guys to handle such a small workload. Guys like Marte, Vizcaino, Ozuna, and Blum are strictly window dressing at this point. Ozzie would be an idiot to use ANY of them from here on out.

I agree with you on using a limited bench and bullpen however I'm a bit fuzzy on the idea of using Marte as a decoy. What good is he as a decoy if he has already been nationally exposed as worthless at doing the job he is supposed to do, getting tough lefties out?

kevin57
10-09-2005, 11:56 PM
I can understand the reasoning why not McCarthy, but Marte should not see action again, period. I've said it many times before, Ozzie has some illogical, and God help us, I hope not fatal thing for Marte.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-10-2005, 12:04 AM
I agree with you on using a limited bench and bullpen however I'm a bit fuzzy on the idea of using Marte as a decoy. What good is he as a decoy if he has already been nationally exposed as worthless at doing the job he is supposed to do, getting tough lefties out?

The presumption in every baseball expert's mind is that at least half the advantage a lefty pitcher has over a lefty hitter is not with the pitcher's ability but with the hitter's inability to hit lefty pitching.

Marte throws with his left arm. There are plenty of other lefties with jobs in the major leagues for no other reason than Marte's. And some of them hang around the Show for years with absolutely NOTHING on their resume besides "throws left."

See McElroy, Chuck.

:cool:

VA_GoGoSox
10-10-2005, 12:07 AM
I've listened to this discussion on the score and read it here, but I think we're having the wrong debate. Shouldn't the choice be between McCarthy and Vizcaino instead of McCarthy and Marte? I understand that Ozzie wants Marte because he is a lefty, but I sure as heck can't figure out why he would want Vizcaino over McCarthy.

We're having the wrong debate here...

and...

I'm gonna do it...

:threadblows:

OH YEAH!!!

Jerome
10-10-2005, 12:08 AM
This is mind-bending. And not the good kind of mind bending. Brandon McCarthy is a damn good pitcher. The Yankees and Angels have not seen a whole lot of him. It would be foolish to bring in Marte in a game where you are not up or down by minimum five runs anyways. In case a starter falters early in a game, McCarthy would be right there to eat up the innings. With BMac and El Duque, the Sox have the luxury of two starting pitchers per game. How many other teams can say that? I guess the LH hitters on the angels and yankees scare Ozzie more than the thought of his starters faltering, which is understandable.

I agree though, that BMac would be better than Vizcaino as well, we may be having the wrong debate here.

But whatever Ozzie, I can't fault you for the team's 99 win season. Even though BMac was a much bigger part of those 99 wins than Marte. I just hope that the starters continue their dominance. Boston was after all, the best offense in the game and they were held to 2, 4, 3 runs.

Banix12
10-10-2005, 12:21 AM
The presumption in every baseball expert's mind is that at least half the advantage a lefty pitcher has over a lefty hitter is not with the pitcher's ability but with the hitter's inability to hit lefty pitching.

Marte throws with his left arm. There are plenty of other lefties with jobs in the major leagues for no other reason than Marte's. And some of them hang around the Show for years with absolutely NOTHING on their resume besides "throws left."

See McElroy, Chuck.

:cool:

Or Fossas, Tony.

Ok I get it. Hopefully though Ozzie won't be an idiot and play the reserves and the back the the pen. Though I can just picture Marte getting in game 3.

elrod
10-10-2005, 12:37 AM
I'm on the record opposed to this move. Damaso against the Angels this year:

3.00 ERA with 1 ER in 3 innings. But his WHIP was 2.00 so he got lucky.

Against the Yankees, Damaso has a 0.00 ERA in 3 innings with a WHIP of 1.00.
The only explanation I can see for keeping Marte is his dominance against the Yankee left handers like Giambi and Matsui.

LuvSox
10-10-2005, 12:40 AM
The only explanation I can see for keeping Marte is his dominance against the Yankee left handers like Giambi and Matsui.

I'm not sure I would call three innings dominance. Marte? How about lucky. :D:

StillMissOzzie
10-10-2005, 12:42 AM
The presumption in every baseball expert's mind is that at least half the advantage a lefty pitcher has over a lefty hitter is not with the pitcher's ability but with the hitter's inability to hit lefty pitching.

Marte throws with his left arm. There are plenty of other lefties with jobs in the major leagues for no other reason than Marte's. And some of them hang around the Show for years with absolutely NOTHING on their resume besides "throws left."

See McElroy, Chuck.

:cool:

Yes, they can see a lefty warming up in the bullpen, but assuming the opposition scouts have not been sleeping during the last 3 weeks' Sox gmes, they'd know that:
1) Marte can't throw strikes-wait for a walk, or
2) Marte will just drill you instead of throwing 4 pitches.

IMHO, part of the reason that lefties have jobs just because they are lefties presumes that they can throw strikes.

As well-rested as the starting rotation will be, I don't think that they'll miss McCarthy, but I do think the question of "Why, Ozzie, why?" WILL come up again.

SMO
:gulp:

JorgeFabregas
10-10-2005, 12:51 AM
Saying Marte is great against anyone is akin to the Boston fans who were bragging about how well their team did against Contreras before the playoffs started. You're talking about a different pitcher. Marte is bad, bad, bad now.

FielderJones
10-10-2005, 12:59 AM
With all that said, if I were managing the Yanks or the Angels, I'd sure have my players taking the first couple of pitches Marte throws.

The first couple of pitches?? The bat stays on your shoulder unless there are two strikes. And try to take one for the team.

I would love to be proven wrong, but I fear that Marte will not get his head straight in the most pressure packed games of the season.

chisoxmike
10-10-2005, 01:18 AM
Wow, this thread is going to go until Tuesday isn't it?


I don't think the plan is to ever have McCarthy come out of the bullpen, I think he was used in that role only once this season. So don't expect that in the playoffs. GOD WILLING this team goes to the World Series, unless Marte has some total meltdown in the ALCS ,I highly doubt McCarthy is on the roster.

sox230
10-10-2005, 03:20 AM
I think if someone should get cut to bring McCarthy aboard, it should be Viscaino. He cannot get an out.

Soxboyrob
10-10-2005, 09:18 AM
I don't think the plan is to ever have McCarthy come out of the bullpen, I think he was used in that role only once this season. So don't expect that in the playoffs. .

He came out of the bullpen twice over the last month, and did just fine each time. Even if he'd never come out of the pen, I'd take him over stiff Marte, who's basically worthless.

wdelaney72
10-10-2005, 09:22 AM
I've listened to this discussion on the score and read it here, but I think we're having the wrong debate. Shouldn't the choice be between McCarthy and Vizcaino instead of McCarthy and Marte? I understand that Ozzie wants Marte because he is a lefty, but I sure as heck can't figure out why he would want Vizcaino over McCarthy.

We're having the wrong debate here...

and...

I'm gonna do it...

:threadblows:

OH YEAH!!!

Absolutely. McCarthy is a starter? Ask Jack McKeon how it worked out for him bringing in SP late in a playoff game. McCarthy should be pitching before Viz.

ode to veeck
10-10-2005, 10:04 AM
I think beyond "he's just a decoy" here, there's a bona fide confidence in Damaso from Ozzie the rest of us don't understand. Personally, I would easily pick McCarthy for the ALCS roster over Marte, just based on my expectation of who is more likely to be effective, whether its either short or long relief in Branden's case. Branden has been fine in his two recent stints out of the pen, so I don't buy the "he's a starter not a fireman" argument.

I've watched the Tivo of the 6th inning of game 3 about three times already (it's just sooooo darn good to see again, much better than the Bears game I missed yesterday). Yeah, the net result was Damaso loaded up the bases, including a couble of BB, but his breaking stuff was not that far off (compared to times when we've seen him totally unable to find the plate). In fact Ozzie may have had some basis for his bitching about the balls/strikes calls.

Underneath it all, I think Ozzie believes Marte can be effective, but I think he'll be careful about how and when he uses him. When he's on, Damaso can be very effective. We just haven't really seen it from him with any consistency in quite a while.

ode to veeck
10-10-2005, 10:10 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=885336#post885336

Reading through the Cubune's Gonzales' article on this, I really think Ozzie believes its a mental / confidence thing with Damaso, not a question of physical capability, but it's gonna make the rest of us damn nervous if he's gonna try and work him through it during any critical moments in the ALCS.

The other driving factor here is that the Angels' and Yankees' are heavily laden with left handed hitters

mcfish
10-10-2005, 10:13 AM
I'm gonna be in the minority here, but I have to agree with this decision. I love McCarthy, but we do not need six starting pitchers on the post-season roster. Hopefully, the 11th man in the bulpen doesn't see the field in this series and will only be used in an emergency, which is more conducive to someone who can get ready quickly. He makes the other manager think about things at the very least.

Ozzie has pushed the right buttons nearly the entire season, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.That would be a valid point if Marte really was the 11th man in the bullpen, but Ozzie doesn't see him as the 11th man. Ozzie sees him as his go to guy. In reality, Marte should be the 11th man (shouldn't be on there at all actually - you shouldn't put a guy on the roster that you have no intention of playing when you keep off a better option simply because he started all year), but OZZIE DOESN'T KNOW THAT. He has bought into the Baker-Hawkins school of management and refuses to look at the mountain of evidence in front of him

mcfish
10-10-2005, 10:15 AM
Underneath it all, I think Ozzie believes Marte can be effective, but I think he'll be careful about how and when he uses him. When he's on, Damaso can be very effective. We just haven't really seen it from him with any consistency in quite a while.Careful is NOT letting him put 3 men in a row on base in a row in a 1 run game in the playoffs. That's reckless abandonment of your team.

bigdommer
10-10-2005, 10:19 AM
I'm gonna be in the minority here, but I have to agree with this decision. I love McCarthy, but we do not need six starting pitchers on the post-season roster. Hopefully, the 11th man in the bulpen doesn't see the field in this series and will only be used in an emergency, which is more conducive to someone who can get ready quickly. He makes the other manager think about things at the very least.

Ozzie has pushed the right buttons nearly the entire season, let's give him the benefit of the doubt.

I don't know. If we play the Yankees, there is a very good chance that there will be at least one game where a ton of runs are scored. I could see a Mussina/Garcia matchup where both SPs are gone before the 5th inning. In that case, we would need a guy to go 3-4 innings out of the pen. I know, El Duque can do that, but as we saw Friday, El Duque can be used in about any situation. This is a rare situation, but better than any situation in which Vizcaino is pitching.

chaerulez
10-10-2005, 10:25 AM
I Just don't see what Marte and Vizcano can do that McCarthy can't do either, and do a better job of it at that. I used to be a big Marte supporter saying a left handed reliever is very valuable. But if your a lefty reliever sent in to face lefties and can't get them out, there is no reason for you to play anymore. Not to mention Marte's WHIP is like 1.65. Vizcano, I believe isn't as bad as everyone is making out to be, but I classify him as an average pitcher. McCarthy is an above average pitcher and I know he's a starter but he can still come out and pitch an effective inning or two.

Sxy Mofo
10-10-2005, 10:25 AM
With the second most regular season wins in sox history, the first postseason win (sweep no less) in a long time, how can anyone question ozzie right now?

Do i like the marte move? Not especially. Do I question Ozzie about it? After watching this season? Absolutely not.

daveeym
10-10-2005, 10:25 AM
We won in spite of Ozzie and his choice to use Marte. You can never have too many good pitchers on a playoff roster, be it starters or relievers. What if we go 12, 15 or 18 innings in a crucial game? Who do you prefer to have on your roster? A guy that puts almost two men on base per inning, or McCarthy....a guy who's shown he can basically shut down any team in baseball for an entire game? What if What if What if, What if a meteorite wipes out 2/3 of the pen in game one and we're stuck with Marte? OMG.

Seriously, you can't go into this series against a left handed hitting team with one lefty in the pen (as others have already said). Unfortunately he's our only other lefty option after Cotts. Remember this is a 7 game series and should be a bit more "competitive" so the pen is going to be used a lot more.

As far as bringing in Marte on Friday, ***** people, yeah everyone knows he's an implosion waiting to happen BUT the only reason Marte shouldn't have been in there was because we had a rested pen and everyone was available. Other than that, Marte definitely gets the call there, why waste Cotts in the sixth, save him for more important innings later. (and face it BEFORE Marte loaded the bases it wasn't that dire of a position) Bitching and managing in hindsight is BS, at the time all the right moves were made and they are continuing to be made.

If Bmac was lefty he'd be on the roster, fact is he isn't. Life's a bitch.

Sxy Mofo
10-10-2005, 10:28 AM
I say marte gets a big cheer at the cell in game one.


Without him, we wouldn't have ripped out boston's heart and danced on it in the 6th.

PaulDrake
10-10-2005, 10:47 AM
Careful is NOT letting him put 3 men in a row on base in a row in a 1 run game in the playoffs. That's reckless abandonment of your team. Thank you very much. I know Ozzie is Ozzie but I just couldn't believe he did that. This is our best chance in 88 years. Don't let blind loyalty get in the way please.

PaulDrake
10-10-2005, 10:53 AM
So, what did she do to get you to "hush up" when El Duque got Damon?:D: Get me to hush up? At that point she was yelling just as loud as I was. She's a good gal. A die hard Pirate fan until I converted her. :D:

Domeshot17
10-10-2005, 10:59 AM
What if What if What if, What if a meteorite wipes out 2/3 of the pen in game one and we're stuck with Marte? OMG.

Whats the MLB ruling on Injuries do to Meteorite's striking? Would we have to wait for the world series to add replacements, or, because of Natural Disaster, would they let us call up Bmac, Baj, Adkins to help the cause?

I guess if it really doesnt matter, if a Meteor whiped out the pen, and only left Damaso, this wasnt accident, this was the big guy above showing he is a cubs fan, and he would be laughing his butt off

34 Inch Stick
10-10-2005, 11:56 AM
I don't know about anyone else but I think Ozzie is an absolute genius and I will henceforth unquestioningly defer to him on all matters of baseball. Should the Sox reach the world series I will move that all questions, regardless of topic be answered by Ozzie.

However, since genius is fleeting, I will be calling for his head in three years for having the same modus operandi for which he is so heavily praised today (but roundly criticized for just over a month ago).

kevingrt
10-10-2005, 12:03 PM
I second that 100%

DenverSock
10-10-2005, 12:42 PM
Wow, this thread is going to go until Tuesday isn't it?I hope so!:rolleyes:

shoota II
10-10-2005, 03:39 PM
Other than that, Marte definitely gets the call there, why waste Cotts in the sixth, save him for more important innings later. (and face it BEFORE Marte loaded the bases it wasn't that dire of a position) Bitching and managing in hindsight is BS, at the time all the right moves were made and they are continuing to be made.

If Bmac was lefty he'd be on the roster, fact is he isn't. Life's a bitch.

You use Cotts in the sixth because he's a better pitcher than Marte. You use Cotts because he's more likely to record an out and preserve a one run lead.

If that happens, Marte is still used as a decoy, and a chance that he may not be used. Ozzie shouldn't use Marte first and use Cotts, the better pitcher as the decoy.



Before the ALDS, I thought El Duque and McCarthy should be on the roster. Both men can help their team win playoff games; I don't think Marte can. Damaso Marte can't handle pressure situations.

Remember this situation? Bottom of the 9th inning, tie game, with Marte on to face the lefty, Todd Walker, vs. a crosstown rival in front of a packed house on July 4th, 2004. Todd could've brought a thunderstick up to the plate with him, because he didn't need to get a hit to win the game, just allow Damaso Marte to give him a walk-off walk.

daveeym
10-10-2005, 04:34 PM
You use Cotts in the sixth because he's a better pitcher than Marte. You use Cotts because he's more likely to record an out and preserve a one run lead.

If that happens, Marte is still used as a decoy, and a chance that he may not be used. Ozzie shouldn't use Marte first and use Cotts, the better pitcher as the decoy.



Before the ALDS, I thought El Duque and McCarthy should be on the roster. Both men can help their team win playoff games; I don't think Marte can. Damaso Marte can't handle pressure situations.

Remember this situation? Bottom of the 9th inning, tie game, with Marte on to face the lefty, Todd Walker, vs. a crosstown rival in front of a packed house on July 4th, 2004. Todd could've brought a thunderstick up to the plate with him, because he didn't need to get a hit to win the game, just allow Damaso Marte to give him a walk-off walk. I don't know why ozzie let him throw to 3 batters there and I guarentee you he wasn't planning on letting El Duque pitch 3 innings when he brought him in. That's how it panned out and bitching about it in hindsight is bs. I'm sure he didn't want to burn Cotts that early in the game. That's not using Cotts as a decoy, it's just how the game turned.

TaylorStSox
10-10-2005, 04:39 PM
I can sum up this thread in 3 words...

blah, blah, blah

34 Inch Stick
10-10-2005, 04:45 PM
If you think that is true then you could probably sum up the entire message board just as succinctly.

nlentz88
10-10-2005, 05:05 PM
First off, I must admit that Ozzie Guillen knows more about managing a baseball team than I do. Shocking, I know. So what right do I have as a cubicle-dweller to question a baseball manager? Well, I hear there's something in the bill of rights about having the right to speak your mind. So here's my $0.02:

Yeah, it seems to me that there probably is some legit reason to keep Marte on the roster, be it as a decoy or a legitimate lefty out of the pen. But it seems to me that there's more to the story here. Ozzie seems to have a personal relationship with Marte, protecting him and deflecting criticism. I know that's true of all of Ozzie's players, but usually Ozzie has a tough-love approach. When his players don't perform, he makes changes. Don't believe me? Ask Crazy Carl why he's been demoted in the lineup. Or try and find Shingo on the ALCS roster. But it seems like Ozzie has been more lenient and forgiving with Marte. Sure, it could be because Marte is only one of two lefties in the bullpen. But it seems to me as if Ozzie's loyalty to Marte goes beyond baseball strategy.

When Marte came in on Friday, I thought "Here we go again." A single. "Ozzie, get him out of there!" A walk. "Ozzie's going to pull him. He's just gotta!" Another walk. "Finally! Take a seat, Damaso."

I used to really like Marte and counted him as a strength in the bullpen as the Sox broke camp. But he has just failed for some reason this season. Lack of confidence? A nagging, unreported injury? Who knows? But as a fan, I do know one thing: even the option of Marte makes me nervous.

I hope Ozzie knows something that we don't know. I hope his faith in Marte will lead to another feel-good October Sox story. I hope Marte can help the Sox reach the World Series. But the guy makes me nervous. I just hope that Ozzie's personal relationship with Marte isn't going to cost the Sox a chance to validate the suffering of generations of Sox fans.

Sxy Mofo
10-10-2005, 05:22 PM
On one hand the logical reason is that we don't have many lefties in the pen... and damaso has good stuff if he'd throw strikes. Much like Contreras or Garland. I wonder if that's what ozzies banking on.

On the other hand, now is not the time to learn how to throw strikes.

On the made up hand... I don't see how anyone can second guess ozzie after his first year rebuilt team put up 99 wins and an LDS sweep.

34 Inch Stick
10-10-2005, 05:45 PM
I think we should no longer post any opinions on this board. We should merely have questions with either Ozzie's response if known or Ozzie's anticipated response. That would save bandwith and reduce all threads to 2-3 posts, unless of course, Ozzie changes his mind on a subject.

That could be problematic though as it would be presumptuous of people like us to anticipate Ozzie's response. So I guess we should just leave all threads open until Ozzie addresses the matter directly.

Sxy Mofo
10-10-2005, 05:54 PM
I think we should no longer post any opinions on this board. We should merely have questions with either Ozzie's response if known or Ozzie's anticipated response. That would save bandwith and reduce all threads to 2-3 posts, unless of course, Ozzie changes his mind on a subject.

That could be problematic though as it would be presumptuous of people like us to anticipate Ozzie's response. So I guess we should just leave all threads open until Ozzie addresses the matter directly.


Maybe. I'll tell you i trust anonymous internet message board poster's opinion much more than ozzies. Seeing as how anonymous message board poster won 99 games and got the Sox to the ALCS for the first time ever.

soxfanreggie
10-10-2005, 06:54 PM
I don't know why some posters don't want to see BMac in the game. The reason I want to see him is how well he's pitched recently. Contreras has pitched the best of the starters lately, which is why he's ahead of Buehrle. I think BMac has pitched a lot better recently than a lot of other Sox pitchers. I don't see why Viz or Marte are on the roster ahead of him. McCarthy has actually pitched better recently than a vast majority of the Sox starters. He won a game against a tough Cleveland that was trying to get into the post season. He went into Boston and won at Fenway. The only game he's lost since June was a game he gave up 3 runs to Detroit in 6 1/3 when the Sox lost 3-2. That was his worst game since a no decision vs TB on Independence Day.

shoota II
10-11-2005, 12:15 AM
I don't know why ozzie let him throw to 3 batters there and I guarentee you he wasn't planning on letting El Duque pitch 3 innings when he brought him in. That's how it panned out and bitching about it in hindsight is bs. I'm sure he didn't want to burn Cotts that early in the game. That's not using Cotts as a decoy, it's just how the game turned.

Let me ask you this: If you have two lefties in the bullpen, one much better than the other, and you manage a game where one lefty will definately be used and one might be used, which one will you use first?

Answer: Obviously the better of the two should be used first since he is guaranteed to pitch. Why choose the inferior lefty first when you might only need one lefty to pitch in the game? :kukoo:

The only way you can disagree with me is if you believe Marte is the superior lefty to Cotts, arguing that the superior lefty was used first in game 3 vs. Boston.

34 Inch Stick
10-11-2005, 08:40 AM
Maybe. I'll tell you i trust anonymous internet message board poster's opinion much more than ozzies. Seeing as how anonymous message board poster won 99 games and got the Sox to the ALCS for the first time ever.

Of course, the internet posters have no affect on the game. However, talking/writing about it does enhance the enjoyment of baseball. So you are stuck with simply listening to post game interviews and accepting everything that is said as bible or coming on the internet and seeing if there are other angles that baseball lifers might not have seen. Either way, to the players, coaches etc. it means nothing. I would hope for posters it is a form of entertainment.

If I were to take what any manager says and simply accept it there would be no reason for this site other than to spend several posts discussing whether the game is being moved from tuesday to wednesday.

the gooch
10-11-2005, 10:31 AM
Let me ask you this: If you have two lefties in the bullpen, one much better than the other, and you manage a game where one lefty will definately be used and one might be used, which one will you use first?

Answer: Obviously the better of the two should be used first since he is guaranteed to pitch. Why choose the inferior lefty first when you might only need one lefty to pitch in the game? :kukoo:

The only way you can disagree with me is if you believe Marte is the superior lefty to Cotts, arguing that the superior lefty was used first in game 3 vs. Boston.
then why are closers only used in the 9th?
face it, there are different philosophies on how to use pitchers.
remember the 'closer-by-committee' experiment in boston?
how about the 'bullpen days' we were subjected to last year?

i believe the conventional managerial wisdom is that the sixth or seventh is the time to bring in the weakest guy you plan to use, and bring in the better guys in the later innings. that way, if we give up a run or two, we know how many we need to get back, and we have our good guys for an even tighter spot coming up. if the guy is dealing, or if we drop a five-spot and it becomes garbage time, keep him in and save our key guys which you typically use more often. this of course only helps during the regular season.

with our whole bullpen rested and available i didnt want to see marte in there. this was a confidence builder that backfired, and i thought damaso pitched himself off the playoff roster. i also thought that about the last week of the season, looked at his season numbers month by month, and realized he has gotten lefties out ok, just not the righties he is left in to face. i think marte should only face one batter at a time and give cotts the whole inning assignment, but my first choice is mccarthy regardless of whos roster spot he takes.