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stockonline2
10-08-2005, 04:22 PM
Anyone have a pic of the called third strike on Damon? This guy is trying to tell me that it wasn't even close to being a strike, I wonder then, why Damon just walked off the field without arguing. What a joke. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Madvora
10-08-2005, 04:27 PM
It's on this thread...
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=59333

stockonline2
10-08-2005, 04:31 PM
I was hoping, if possible, to see the actual picture of the swing, and show that he obviously went around.

Chips
10-08-2005, 04:32 PM
The pitch was a ball, but when you swing the bat and miss, it's strike.
http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/10.7_bdd_JD_get.jpg

stockonline2
10-08-2005, 04:35 PM
I'm sorry, to elaborate. This retard is telling me Damon didn't swing,not that it wasn't a strike.

Ol' No. 2
10-08-2005, 04:38 PM
I'm sorry, to elaborate. This retard is telling me Damon didn't swing,not that it wasn't a strike.It was close. He just barely broke the plane.
The pitch wasn't even close to being a strike. It took stones THIS BIG to throw that slider in that situation.

StockdaleForVeep
10-08-2005, 04:51 PM
Im amazed that he ump didnt ask to third base for confirmation, maybe it was a makeup call for the questionable ball marte threw

Cambridge
10-08-2005, 04:54 PM
This a very honest question, so please don't look at it as trolling. That is not my intention.

To preface, I have a deep fascination with the psychology and sociology of sports -- primarily baseball -- both as pertains to the players and the fans. Here is my question:

Since the beginning of the ALDS, and now continuing after it, I see posters continually looking for reasons to cast aspersions on the opposing team, their fans, and the media. This thread is yet another example. A player was called out on a check swing (yes, it appeared to be the right call), and one fan (out of hundreds of thousands) questioned it. That merits a thread asking for people to call him an idiot? Imagine if Damon had come out and question the call -- the length of this thread would be 20 pages and counting, all laughing at him for being a loser.

What I don't understand is why? What is in the DNA of some fans that makes them feel better if there are people they can label losers and *******s? Maybe I'm a loser and an ******* for asking, but...why not just enjoy the competition and the result?

FielderJones
10-08-2005, 04:55 PM
I'm sorry, to elaborate. This retard is telling me Damon didn't swing,not that it wasn't a strike.

He swung, but it was close. The real tale of the call was AJ vs Damon. The ball hit the dirt, AJ grabbed it, and tagged Damon out. In other words, he sold the umpire that Damon swung and that it was a dropped third strike. Damon just stood there. He could have started trotting toward first, trying to sell the umpire that he held up and that it was a ball. But he didn't. Advantage, AJ!

FARMEO
10-08-2005, 05:01 PM
Looks like a swing to me.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2005/10/08/1128781232_1996.jpg

Ol' No. 2
10-08-2005, 05:07 PM
This a very honest question, so please don't look at it as trolling. That is not my intention.

To preface, I have a deep fascination with the psychology and sociology of sports -- primarily baseball -- both as pertains to the players and the fans. Here is my question:

Since the beginning of the ALDS, and now continuing after it, I see posters continually looking for reasons to cast aspersions on the opposing team, their fans, and the media. This thread is yet another example. A player was called out on a check swing (yes, it appeared to be the right call), and one fan (out of hundreds of thousands) questioned it. That merits a thread asking for people to call him an idiot? Imagine if Damon had come out and question the call -- the length of this thread would be 20 pages and counting, all laughing at him for being a loser.

What I don't understand is why? What is in the DNA of some fans that makes them feel better if there are people they can label losers and *******s? Maybe I'm a loser and an ******* for asking, but...why not just enjoy the competition and the result?You're joking. How long have you been following baseball? How is it possible you never noticed the us vs. them psychology? There's a natural need to feel superior to your enemy to make yourself feel confident.

stockonline2
10-08-2005, 05:15 PM
This a very honest question, so please don't look at it as trolling. That is not my intention.

To preface, I have a deep fascination with the psychology and sociology of sports -- primarily baseball -- both as pertains to the players and the fans. Here is my question:

Since the beginning of the ALDS, and now continuing after it, I see posters continually looking for reasons to cast aspersions on the opposing team, their fans, and the media. This thread is yet another example. A player was called out on a check swing (yes, it appeared to be the right call), and one fan (out of hundreds of thousands) questioned it. That merits a thread asking for people to call him an idiot? Imagine if Damon had come out and question the call -- the length of this thread would be 20 pages and counting, all laughing at him for being a loser.

What I don't understand is why? What is in the DNA of some fans that makes them feel better if there are people they can label losers and *******s? Maybe I'm a loser and an ******* for asking, but...why not just enjoy the competition and the result?

I don't feel superior at all. I am not calling this guy a loser either, just a retard for being so whiney about it. This guy is telling me and other people something that is simply untrue and I want to dispute his erroneous claims. There is nothing more to it at all.

TornLabrum
10-08-2005, 05:43 PM
Im amazed that he ump didnt ask to third base for confirmation, maybe it was a makeup call for the questionable ball marte threw

The plate umpire indicated that he saw it and made the call himself. An appeal is only allowed if the plate umpire does not call a strike.

Chips
10-08-2005, 05:44 PM
Looks like a swing to me.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2005/10/08/1128781232_1996.jpg

That is without a doubt a strike.

TornLabrum
10-08-2005, 05:44 PM
He swung, but it was close. The real tale of the call was AJ vs Damon. The ball hit the dirt, AJ grabbed it, and tagged Damon out. In other words, he sold the umpire that Damon swung and that it was a dropped third strike. Damon just stood there. He could have started trotting toward first, trying to sell the umpire that he held up and that it was a ball. But he didn't. Advantage, AJ!

As I recall it, the umpire called the strike before A.J. made the tag.

ilsox7
10-08-2005, 05:46 PM
That is without a doubt a strike.

I completely agree. I don't think it was close at all. And when the batter doesn't think it's close, coupled with the home plate umpire, I feel pretty good that this was in no way a debatable call.

batmanZoSo
10-08-2005, 05:51 PM
That is without a doubt a strike.

That picture is misleading. It is either from an angle or it's from another swing. He didn't go nearly that far on the strikeout but he did break the plane, that's for absolutely certain. It was a call that often goes the batter's way, but rightfully goes to the pitcher.

SOXintheBURGH
10-08-2005, 05:58 PM
After many TiVo rewinds since, I must concur that it was a total ****ing strike.

FielderJones
10-08-2005, 06:09 PM
As I recall it, the umpire called the strike before A.J. made the tag.

You have better recall than me. I'd have to look at repeated Tivo replays to sequence it correctly. SoxintheBurgh??

voodoochile
10-08-2005, 06:26 PM
I remember that AJ was falling all over himself, trying to gesture to third, and simultaneously tag Damon. He succeeded in the latter, but of course with the bases loaded and two outs all he really had to do was tap home while holding the ball. The HP ump never looked to third, and called Damon out immediately when AJ tagged him.

I only saw it once live and thought it was a strike immediately, but I also admit that I am biased.

And the guy you are arguing with sounds like he has a bad case of sour grapes. Tell him it was not that play that cost his team the series and they had 3 more chances to put up runs thereafter and failed miserably. If Boston hadn't been blown out in game one, made a costly error followed by a 3-run bomb in game two, been shut out by the Sox bullpen in every game and managed to not lose by a combined score of 24-9, he MIGHT have a point. As it is, he's just whining.

You could also tell him it's a conspiracy and MLB hates the Red Sox and desperately wanted the White Sox in the ALCS. Look out Angels, you're the next team to get screwed by the Man so America's team - the White Sox - can finally get a chance at the big prize...:rolleyes:

mccoydp
10-08-2005, 06:50 PM
The replay on ESPN clearly showed that Damon just barely broke the plane for a swinging strike...Damon knew it, too.

Dick Allen
10-08-2005, 07:25 PM
The bat barely broke the plane. But the pitch that was called ball 3 should have been a strike also.

Chips
10-08-2005, 07:26 PM
That picture is misleading. It is either from an angle or it's from another swing. He didn't go nearly that far on the strikeout but he did break the plane, that's for absolutely certain. It was a call that often goes the batter's way, but rightfully goes to the pitcher.

But he broke the plane and therefore there is no doubt that it is strike. The TV replay showed that he went around as well. You go around and you're toast. Maybe next time Damon won't chase the slider. Too bad. He'll grab some bench.

BeefyD
10-08-2005, 11:09 PM
Here's a pic from the replay:

http://www.ontheflychicago.com/JOE/damon2.jpg

voodoochile
10-08-2005, 11:17 PM
^picture

That's a strike in any league.

BTW, they changed the rules. Breaking your wrists no longer has anything to do with it, it's whether it crosses the plane of the plate. Much simpler to call, less judgement required and it truly makes sense. I mean if the bat is past the plate, who cares if it goes all the way around. Once it's past the plate, you are past the point of contact for all intents and purposes.

TornLabrum
10-08-2005, 11:17 PM
Here's a pic from the replay:

http://www.ontheflychicago.com/JOE/damon2.jpg

And that looks like at least a 10-20 degree angle greater than the plane. The plate umpire had no difficulty calling it, and he did.

SOX ADDICT '73
10-08-2005, 11:39 PM
Here's a pic from the replay:

http://www.ontheflychicago.com/JOE/damon2.jpg
And after nearly two pages, we finally have an answer to the original post's request. Thanks, BeefyD!

I was all over Mark Wegner the entire game for squeezing Freddy into grooving a couple of pitches to Ortiz and Ramirez, and for calling any Wakefield pitch within 5 inches of the plate a strike. By the bottom of the sixth, I was nearly foaming at the mouth over some of the non-calls for Damaso and El Duque, particularly the ball 3 call on Damon (which ESPN suspiciously declined to show on "K-Zone").

I think perhaps he knew he'd blown it on that pitch. It's clear from the photo that he ruled correctly on Damon's swing two pitches later, but that was in no way an easy call to make. Watching it live, I was sure we had walked in the tying run. Wegner could have easily deferred to Iassogna at 3B to make the call, and how often have we seen swings called non-swings and vice versa? Making that call himself took pretty big stones.

You punked us for most of the game, Mark, but you stepped up when it mattered most. All is forgiven! :smile:

TornLabrum
10-08-2005, 11:47 PM
And after nearly two pages, we finally have an answer to the original post's request. Thanks, BeefyD!

I was all over Mark Wegner the entire game for squeezing Freddy into grooving a couple of pitches to Ortiz and Ramirez, and for calling any Wakefield pitch within 5 inches of the plate a strike. By the bottom of the sixth, I was nearly foaming at the mouth over some of the non-calls for Damaso and El Duque, particularly the ball 3 call on Damon (which ESPN suspiciously declined to show on "K-Zone").

I think perhaps he knew he'd blown it on that pitch. It's clear from the photo that he ruled correctly on Damon's swing two pitches later, but that was in no way an easy call to make. Watching it live, I was sure we had walked in the tying run. Wegner could have easily deferred to Iassogna at 3B to make the call, and how often have we seen swings called non-swings and vice versa? Making that call himself took pretty big stones.

You punked us for most of the game, Mark, but you stepped up when it mattered most. All is forgiven! :smile:

I've notice the plate umpire making the strike call on the check swing more this year, particularly in the past month or two, than in previous years. I think they've decided that if they're certain the batter went around, they won't defer the call to the base umpire.

Huisj
10-08-2005, 11:47 PM
Here's a pic from the replay:

http://www.ontheflychicago.com/JOE/damon2.jpg

The question that this picture really brings up is not about Damon's swing--it's clear that that is a swing, and thus a strike. No, the real question is, why is ESPN giving weather reports for college football games on their bottom line "scoreboard"?:tongue:

slobes
10-08-2005, 11:52 PM
He swung, but it was close. The real tale of the call was AJ vs Damon. The ball hit the dirt, AJ grabbed it, and tagged Damon out. In other words, he sold the umpire that Damon swung and that it was a dropped third strike. Damon just stood there. He could have started trotting toward first, trying to sell the umpire that he held up and that it was a ball. But he didn't. Advantage, AJ!

Not only did Aj help sell it, but El Duque immediately pumped his fist and started running off the field.
Nevertheless, he definitely went around

NWSox
10-08-2005, 11:55 PM
The bat barely broke the plane. But the pitch that was called ball 3 should have been a strike also.

Throughout the course of the game, the ump makes a lot of judgment calls and fans don't agree with many of them. Certainly plenty of calls went against the Sox prior to this pitch. This is baseball. You can't look back at one call without unraveling the entire game. I've heard very few complaints about this call.

SOX ADDICT '73
10-09-2005, 12:16 AM
Throughout the course of the game, the ump makes a lot of judgment calls and fans don't agree with many of them. Certainly plenty of calls went against the Sox prior to this pitch. This is baseball. You can't look back at one call without unraveling the entire game. I've heard very few complaints about this call.
Do you think that might have something to do with the eventual outcome? Believe me, if the Damon at-bat goes a different way after that blown call, there'd be a 300-post thread about it.

I know umps are human and make mistakes, and like snowflakes, it often seems that no two have the exact same strike zone. Some are very generous, some are stingy; some like 'em high, some low; and let's face it, some are very good, and some are very bad. If a team has a sense of what will be called a strike and what will not, then the pitcher can throw it where he needs to, and the hitters can lay off or swing accordingly.

What we should be able to expect, if we're to believe in the integrity of the game and impartiality of its umpires, is consistency for both dugouts. In my opinion, we did not have that for much of yesterday's game. Garcia had to throw it through a teacup, and the Red Sox sluggers knew it (fortunately only Ortiz and Ramirez were able to do anything about it). Wakefield was not held to that same standard, and our hitters knew it (prompting them to swing at pitches outside the zone, knowing they'd be called strikes regardless).

Thank God yesterday was the exception, but it's eerie how often something bad happens after an ump blows a call like that one.

BeefyD
10-09-2005, 01:43 PM
Here's a nice little animated gif file for everyone... Had to dramatically drop the frame rate to get it under 200k. And it's a demo of a program, so that little "reel" is stuck there. If I shrink the resolution, it covers part of the bat.

http://www.ontheflychicago.com/JOE/damon.gif

Hmmm..seems not to loop.. that blows...

Hangar18
10-09-2005, 04:11 PM
Im amazed that he ump didnt ask to third base for confirmation, maybe it was a makeup call for the questionable ball marte threw


We can thank Media troll/Cub Lover Ron Rapoport for this. The ball was away away, and Damons swing BARELY DID breakthe plane. IT was a Good Call ....barely. However, the ump Wegner made 2 very terrible, nearly-game-changing "ball" calls earlier in the inning that couldve cost the SOX the game. I took that as a Make-Up call (anything close, hed give to us) Rooney and Farmer commented on had bad the calls were earlier (where was that? I dont know, that pitch was RIGHT down the Middle! said an exasperated Rooney) That said, it evened out, and kudos to Wegner for righting himself and not letting Ozz get to him and pull a Wendlestedt Revenge call.

Rapoport has TWICE now commented on 1: The sox were lucky that call when their way and why hasnt Damon complained about it 2: In a very Mike Kiley-esqe tone, said OK, since Damon isnt complaining, than he wont talk or comment on it anymore (despite the fact that by him commenting on it is indeed bringing it up again) All that was was future ammunition for dimwitted fans of the Blue Corporation to rub in our faces. Sorry Ron, Im not buying it

DenverSock
10-09-2005, 05:27 PM
As I recall it, the umpire called the strike before A.J. made the tag.My memory is exactly the same. As other posters have noted it's up to the home plate umpire if he chooses to make the call. As long as he makes the call that's it. There is no right of appeal and in the end there is no arguing balls and strikes. All so called rules such as breaking the plane of the plate with the head of the bat or breaking the wrists are rulesn of thumb. The final say is the umpire's judgement. I'd have called it a strike, and yes, Damon clearly broke the plane of the plate with the head of the bat, no matter how slightly. Not that it matters, the Ump made his call and the game is over. Any whining about it now is just babyish.

Dick Allen
10-09-2005, 10:07 PM
We can thank Media troll/Cub Lover Ron Rapoport for this. The ball was away away, and Damons swing BARELY DID breakthe plane. IT was a Good Call ....barely. However, the ump Wegner made 2 very terrible, nearly-game-changing "ball" calls earlier in the inning that couldve cost the SOX the game. I took that as a Make-Up call (anything close, hed give to us) Rooney and Farmer commented on had bad the calls were earlier (where was that? I dont know, that pitch was RIGHT down the Middle! said an exasperated Rooney) That said, it evened out, and kudos to Wegner for righting himself and not letting Ozz get to him and pull a Wendlestedt Revenge call.

Rapoport has TWICE now commented on 1: The sox were lucky that call when their way and why hasnt Damon complained about it 2: In a very Mike Kiley-esqe tone, said OK, since Damon isnt complaining, than he wont talk or comment on it anymore (despite the fact that by him commenting on it is indeed bringing it up again) All that was was future ammunition for dimwitted fans of the Blue Corporation to rub in our faces. Sorry Ron, Im not buying itRappaport is a douchebag, and I e-mailed him to advise him of such. His little comments get very annoying.

SweetnesSox
10-09-2005, 10:15 PM
This a very honest question, so please don't look at it as trolling. That is not my intention.

To preface, I have a deep fascination with the psychology and sociology of sports -- primarily baseball -- both as pertains to the players and the fans. Here is my question:

Since the beginning of the ALDS, and now continuing after it, I see posters continually looking for reasons to cast aspersions on the opposing team, their fans, and the media. This thread is yet another example. A player was called out on a check swing (yes, it appeared to be the right call), and one fan (out of hundreds of thousands) questioned it. That merits a thread asking for people to call him an idiot? Imagine if Damon had come out and question the call -- the length of this thread would be 20 pages and counting, all laughing at him for being a loser.

What I don't understand is why? What is in the DNA of some fans that makes them feel better if there are people they can label losers and *******s? Maybe I'm a loser and an ******* for asking, but...why not just enjoy the competition and the result?


the guy who started the thread just wanted a pic so he could show his friend the call was correct. I saw the replay on ESPN and he went around. no hard evidence for you though :/ also I'm a psych major, and false confidence is a way to show up your opponent. the biggest male is always the alpha. it's instinctual for humans to make themselves appear as big as possible to psych out the opposition. just like when you see a bear, you make yourself seem as big as possible and make a lot of noise. it's the psych-out.

voodoochile
10-09-2005, 10:17 PM
the guy who started the thread just wanted a pic so he could show his friend the call was correct. I saw the replay on ESPN and he went around. no hard evidence for you though :/ also I'm a psych major, and false confidence is a way to show up your opponent. the biggest male is always the alpha. it's instinctual for humans to make themselves appear as big as possible to psych out the opposition. just like when you see a bear, you make yourself seem as big as possible and make a lot of noise. it's the psych-out.

I like that explanation... it made me :D:

See, I can't help saying "bite me loser" to every fan of opposing teams I meat. It's instinctual...:tongue:

miker
10-10-2005, 03:15 PM
http://www.ontheflychicago.com/JOE/damon2.jpg
BTW, how often during the regular season would a batter get away with this swing. How 'bout some props to the ump for strappin' it down at the most important inning of the series?

thepaulbowski
10-10-2005, 03:19 PM
I completely agree. I don't think it was close at all. And when the batter doesn't think it's close, coupled with the home plate umpire, I feel pretty good that this was in no way a debatable call.

The bat was carried well over the plate, which necessitated a strike being called. It wasn't close.

ElevenUp
10-10-2005, 03:49 PM
I'll have to admit that when I saw that live I didn't think he went around, leading to much confusion in my pea-head when Duque went charging off the mound. Replays definitely show Damon swinging. I'll agree that I've seen games where that is not called a strike even with an appeal. But it was without a doubt a swing. Tha fact that Damon never made a move to first or argued the call also illustrates this fact.

Sxy Mofo
10-10-2005, 04:04 PM
Here's a pic from the replay:

http://www.ontheflychicago.com/JOE/damon2.jpg

Seeing that again, I realize that's not a check swing. Wow.










That's a swing...