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View Full Version : Marte out, McCarthy in - please?


elrod
10-07-2005, 09:27 PM
OK, we got through one round with Marte and no McCarthy. We did not need McCarthy. Nor did we need Politte or Hermanson or Vizcaino for that matter. But when we turned to Marte, he failed miserably. Only El Duque's legendary performance bailed him out. Ozzie kept Marte because he's a lefty. But he can't get lefties out, so what use is he? It's time to put McCarthy on the ALCS roster and remove Damaso Marte. Hopefully, we will never see Marte in a White Sox uniform again.

Law11
10-07-2005, 09:32 PM
OK, we got through one round with Marte and no McCarthy. We did not need McCarthy. Nor did we need Politte or Hermanson or Vizcaino for that matter. But when we turned to Marte, he failed miserably. Only El Duque's legendary performance bailed him out. Ozzie kept Marte because he's a lefty. But he can't get lefties out, so what use is he? It's time to put McCarthy on the ALCS roster and remove Damaso Marte. Hopefully, we will never see Marte in a White Sox uniform again.


He has no business on this roster.

SoxFan64
10-07-2005, 09:38 PM
I read somewhere on this list that BMac was pitching (starting I think) in the Arizona Fall League (AFL) on Monday. If he is on a pitch count, which I am assuming he will be, BMac could be ready for us by Thursday or Friday -- depending on how the ALCS is scheduled.

I think it is down to Marte, Vizcaino and BMac for the 11th spot. Maybe Hermanson is included in this list (if his back is too bulky).

Optipessimism
10-07-2005, 09:39 PM
I'd like to come up with some dumb argument centered around keeping Marte as a lefty solely for the purpose of trying to force an opposing manager to remove a tough LH pinch hitter, but I won't. Bring in McCarthy if for no other reason than to at least experience what it's like to warm up in the bullpen or pitch in a blowout during the playoffs. Marte is gone next year and he has shown already that he can not handle the pressure in the playoffs. If he couldn't do it in the ALDS, he sure isn't going to be able to do it in the ALCS or WS. Bring up McCarthy and let the kid share the experience with his teammates.

pczarapa
10-07-2005, 09:40 PM
OK, we got through one round with Marte and no McCarthy. We did not need McCarthy. Nor did we need Politte or Hermanson or Vizcaino for that matter. But when we turned to Marte, he failed miserably. Only El Duque's legendary performance bailed him out. Ozzie kept Marte because he's a lefty. But he can't get lefties out, so what use is he? It's time to put McCarthy on the ALCS roster and remove Damaso Marte. Hopefully, we will never see Marte in a White Sox uniform again.

I'd like to see that as well.

Banix12
10-07-2005, 09:44 PM
When you are a lefty specialist and every other pitcher in the bullpen gets lefties out better than you, you have no business being on a playoff roster.

JohnBasedowYoda
10-07-2005, 09:45 PM
please

Banix12
10-07-2005, 09:48 PM
And as I recall, Guillen is afraid to play him at home because sox fans boo him (I wonder why). So that's potentially 4 games in the ALCS where you have a pitcher on the roster who you can't use.

And as tonight showed, the he doesn't pitch much better on the road, though the fans on the road certainly cheer for him when he comes in the game.

Chips
10-07-2005, 09:48 PM
If we're going to keep Marte off the ALCS roster, which is almost inevitable, I would rather bring up another bat like Gload, Anderson, or Borchard. Ten pitchers is enought to carry us through the next series, especially with El Duque in the pen.

RadioheadRocks
10-07-2005, 09:48 PM
I second that emotion! :D: :bandance: :bandance: :bandance:

mccoydp
10-07-2005, 09:49 PM
Marte gets paid to pitch in high-pressure situations; he hasn't done that well in those situations this season. Get him out of the 'pen!

Banix12
10-07-2005, 09:52 PM
If we're going to keep Marte off the ALCS roster, which is almost inevitable, I would rather bring up another bat like Gload, Anderson, or Borchard. Ten pitchers is enought to carry us through the next series, especially with El Duque in the pen.

No, you need an extra pitcher more than a hitter, just in case a game goes south and you need a sacrificial lamb to save the pen. Or in case of injury

I can't imagine any situation in the ALCS where a hitter comes to the plate and I think to myself, "Oh Man, if only Gload, Anderson, or Borchard could hit for _____". Those guys won't supplant a regular and are very unlikely to get in a game. At least there might be some use for an extra pitcher.

wdelaney72
10-07-2005, 09:56 PM
I really hope that will be Marte's last appearanace but (using John Rooney voice) "I got the sick feeling in my stomach" he'll be coming in at some point in the ALCS.

Shammy Hater
10-07-2005, 09:57 PM
if ozzie wanted a LHP, why didn't he just go with cotts instead of marte in that situation? i thought marte stopped getting appearances for a reason.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-07-2005, 09:57 PM
I was barking at the television during and after Marte's performance. He simply has no business on the playing field anymore.

Ozzie needs to shorten his bench and bullpen for the remainder of the playoffs. I could see maybe leaving Marte on the roster if only to make the opposing manager wonder what Ozzie might do. However I would not use him in anything but a blowout loss. The same goes for guys like Vizcaino.

The Sox have at most 14 more games left to play. We don't need 25 guys anymore. Play your best guys and your hottest pitchers. Forget about the rest of them.

Foulke You
10-07-2005, 10:01 PM
Agreed. Marte has been far too volatile in tough pressure cooker situations in the last couple years. It seems a full ballpark + important game = Marte control issues.

To Marte's defense, there were a few pitches where I thought the ump squeezed him, but El Duque was pitching with that same tea cup strike zone and managed to pitch out of an incredible jam.

I had read that most in the Sox organizaation wanted McCarthy on the roster over Marte but Ozzie really pushed hard for Marte. Ozzie needs to lose his Marte love in the next round and give Brandon his shot. I don't want Marte anywhere near Yankee Stadium or Angels Stadium.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-07-2005, 10:04 PM
....

To Marte's defense, there were a few pitches where I thought the ump squeezed him, but El Duque was pitching with that same tea cup strike zone and managed to pitch out of an incredible jam.

That's what makes El Duque's sixth inning the most clutch I have ever witnessed in any sport. The umpire's strike zone was hardly bigger than a grapefruit. And yet somehow El Duque left all three baserunners stranded. It was simply amazing to watch.

:gulp:

cheeses_h_rice
10-07-2005, 10:09 PM
OK, we got through one round with Marte and no McCarthy. We did not need McCarthy. Nor did we need Politte or Hermanson or Vizcaino for that matter. But when we turned to Marte, he failed miserably. Only El Duque's legendary performance bailed him out. Ozzie kept Marte because he's a lefty. But he can't get lefties out, so what use is he? It's time to put McCarthy on the ALCS roster and remove Damaso Marte. Hopefully, we will never see Marte in a White Sox uniform again.

Marte is just worthless, and he proved that in spades tonight.

Dump him and keep McCarthy on the ALCS roster. No more of this lefty-righty horse**** that might possibly blow postseason games as almost happened tonight, were it not for El Duque's masterful performance.

antitwins13
10-07-2005, 10:11 PM
When you are a lefty specialist and every other pitcher in the bullpen gets lefties out better than you, you have no business being on a playoff roster.

Nice Point!:smile:

PaleHoseGeorge
10-07-2005, 10:19 PM
The only good reason for keeping Marte around is to serve as a decoy in the bullpen, making the opposing manager guess what Ozzie might do. As far as Marte being allowed to actually pitch some meaningful outs? Fergetaboutit.

8-14 games is all the Sox have left. We don't need 25 guys anymore. Marte, Vizcaino, Blum and Ozuna shouldn't matter at all. From now on they're only here to serve as decoys and mop-up after a blowout loss.

mbwhitesox
10-07-2005, 10:22 PM
I agree with all of the above posts. Marte sucks and has sucked for a while now and Ozzie seems to be the only one who doesn't see it.

Nothing would make me happier than Marte being left off the roster for the ALCS and never seeing him pitch in a White Sox uniform again.

Was anyone else wondering why El Duque didn't just start the 6th? Freddy was over 100 pitches and Manny was up to bat.

Vernam
10-07-2005, 10:23 PM
And as I recall, Guillen is afraid to play him at home because sox fans boo him (I wonder why). So that's potentially 4 games in the ALCS where you have a pitcher on the roster who you can't use.

And as tonight showed, the he doesn't pitch much better on the road, though the fans on the road certainly cheer for him when he comes in the game.And those of us in Chicago were wailing so loud, Marte probably heard it all the way in Boston.

The guy is clueless, gutless. I wonder how he felt about celebrating with all the teammates he did his best to let down.

Vernam

beckett21
10-07-2005, 10:23 PM
I was barking at the television during and after Marte's performance. He simply has no business on the playing field anymore.


Barking?

I don't even want to say what I was doing. Suffice it to say, my wife left the house. :redface:

soxfanreggie
10-07-2005, 10:27 PM
I think you need to put McCarthy on the roster...reason being he can get lefties out better than Marte and he can also give you some very long relief like El Duque. We get into an extra inning game like we did during the regular season, we can throw him 4-5 innings (or heck, even 6 or 7). That way we aren't trotting out Politte for 2, Cotts for 2, Hermie for an inning, etc. Cotts, Politte, and Jenks seem to be getting it done, so do we really need Viz especially if we also have Hermie in the pen? Viz should really only be used in mop up situations, so why not bring the extra bat. Dump Viz and Marte...put on Brandon. Even if you leave Marte or Viz on, you still get McCarthy on the roster.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-07-2005, 10:28 PM
Barking?

I don't even want to say what I was doing. Suffice it to say, my wife left the house. :redface:

Farmer was pissing me off, too. He went on and on about "a walk not being a bad thing here."

FARMER, YOU ****ING LOSER!!! EL DUQUE WAS PITCHING HIS HEART OUT!!!!

And this ******* is talking about conceding the tying ****ing run.

Jeeezus... what the hell am I going to do when Rooney leaves?
:angry:

:farmer
"You know why the Phillies never won ****? Ballplayers like me."

Hokiesox
10-07-2005, 10:30 PM
I'd like to come up with some dumb argument centered around keeping Marte as a lefty solely for the purpose of trying to force an opposing manager to remove a tough LH pinch hitter, but I won't. Bring in McCarthy if for no other reason than to at least experience what it's like to warm up in the bullpen or pitch in a blowout during the playoffs. Marte is gone next year and he has shown already that he can not handle the pressure in the playoffs. If he couldn't do it in the ALDS, he sure isn't going to be able to do it in the ALCS or WS. Bring up McCarthy and let the kid share the experience with his teammates.

That would work, except that the rules require a relief pitcher to pitch to one batter, unless he becomes injured during that at-bat.

FloridaSox
10-07-2005, 10:36 PM
On the roster Gload and McCarthy

Off the roster, Vizcaino and Marte.

With 2 SP-RP in El Duque and McCathy, we have arms that can pitch 4-5 quality innings in relief leaving Cotts, Politte, Hermanson and Jenks for short work.

HotelWhiteSox
10-07-2005, 10:40 PM
I hope Ozzie comes to his senses with Marte as well. The ESPN crew said that he admitted during the pregame meetings that he's not going to use Damaso at home, and a road crowd/pressure situation can get to him as well. This pen is deep, Neal is enough to get lefties, and he's damn good against righties as well. McCarthy has got to make it. At this point, I would trust Bajerneu over Marte


The umpire blew, my family was screaming, I'm lucky I didn't break the computer after throwing some objects around to relieve my anger, especially after the first 5 innings when anything near the strike zone for Wakefield was called a strike while even Freddy was squeezed.

beckett21
10-07-2005, 10:40 PM
Farmer was pissing me off, too. He went on and on about "a walk not being a bad thing here."

FARMER, YOU ****ING LOSER!!! EL DUQUE WAS PITCHING HIS HEART OUT!!!!

And this ******* is talking about conceding the tying ****ing run.

Jeeezus... what the hell am I going to do when Rooney leaves?
:angry:

:farmer
"You know why the Phillies never won ****? Ballplayers like me."

Sure glad he wasn't the one on the mound. What a defeatist attitude.

Pansy. :rolleyes:

Brian26
10-07-2005, 10:46 PM
When you are a lefty specialist and every other pitcher in the bullpen gets lefties out better than you, you have no business being on a playoff roster.

Anyone else hear the radio broadcast?

I have NEVER heard Ed Farmer so adamant about not wanting someone on the team. Farmer was all over Marte. Even in the postseason celebration, Farmer was interviewing Cooper, and both guys basically said Marte didn't do his job and disappointed the hell out of them. Before that, though, Farmer said (not an exact quote) that Marte shouldn't be on the team if he can't do his job.

A. Cavatica
10-07-2005, 10:47 PM
Oh please. Only 10 of us wanted Marte off the roster (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1769)before the series.

Congratulations to BarbG (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3338), CarolinaSoxFan (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5360), Frater Perdurabo (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2347), HawkDJ (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=449), MarySwiss (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5532), SoxSideIrish (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6117), Suburbanbuddha (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2942), tifosiv122 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6169), Viva Medias B's (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4118) who like me are knowledgeable baseball fans. :cool:

Brian26
10-07-2005, 10:48 PM
That's what makes El Duque's sixth inning the most clutch I have ever witnessed in any sport. The umpire's strike zone was hardly bigger than a grapefruit. And yet somehow El Duque left all three baserunners stranded. It was simply amazing to watch.

:gulp:

It may go down as one of the most memorable pitching performances of our lifetime. It was epic. One inning, three outs. Did you see AJ's reaction after the second out (Graf's popup)? El Duque ran in to cover behind the plate, and AJ was knocking knuckles with him. I love the interplay between AJ and Duque. After Varitek's popup for the first out, AJ looked over to the Carmine dugout and pumped his fist. Great stuff. Duque was incredible and had great energy.

Brian26
10-07-2005, 10:50 PM
Oh please. Only 10 of us wanted Marte off the roster (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1769)before the series.

Congratulations to BarbG (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3338), CarolinaSoxFan (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5360), Frater Perdurabo (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2347), HawkDJ (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=449), MarySwiss (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5532), SoxSideIrish (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6117), Suburbanbuddha (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2942), tifosiv122 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6169), Viva Medias B's (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4118) who like me are knowledgeable baseball fans. :cool:

I don't remember seeing that poll, but I, on several occassions, voted to keep BOTH Marte and Viz off the roster in favor of Duque and BMac. I still believe that.

JorgeFabregas
10-07-2005, 10:51 PM
The only thing to be said for Marte is that at least he got the hit out the way first. If he had reversed the order of hit-walk-walk (usually it seems he walks the lefty he was brought in to face and then gives up a hit to the next batter or two), then it would've been much worse.

In other words, he's completely useless. Get rid of him.

Banix12
10-07-2005, 10:59 PM
Was anyone else wondering why El Duque didn't just start the 6th? Freddy was over 100 pitches and Manny was up to bat.

I don't claim to speak for Ozzie but after watching him all season I bet this was what was going through his mind. He wanted to bring in Marte against the upcoming lefties after Manny but didn't want Marte facing Manny himself, due to the lefty-righty mismatch.

So in Ozzie's mind I think he thought...
Righty Garcia vs Righty manny... out
Lefty Marte vs Lefty Nixon and switch hitter Mueller... outs

Out of inning

But of course it didn't work that way. So basically it was Ozzie trying to get 3 outs by going lefty-righty situations but they failed to get anybody out and El Duque had to bail out the team.

A. Cavatica
10-07-2005, 11:03 PM
It may go down as one of the most memorable pitching performances of our lifetime. It was epic. One inning, three outs. Did you see AJ's reaction after the second out (Graf's popup)? El Duque ran in to cover behind the plate, and AJ was knocking knuckles with him. I love the interplay between AJ and Duque. After Varitek's popup for the first out, AJ looked over to the Carmine dugout and pumped his fist. Great stuff. Duque was incredible and had great energy.

Absolutely.

Schilling in last year's ALCS might have set the standard for clutch, but that was a different kind of clutch.

If you just arrived on Earth, Schilling went deep into the game against the Yankees, shutting them down on pure guts, the whole time wondering if he was doing irreparable damage to his ankle.

Hernandez came in with no margin for error, after having scarcely pitched in two months. The World Champions, with the best offense in the league, at home in a game-deciding situation. No outs. Bases loaded. Ozzie willing to concede a run. An umpire with a tight strike zone. Full counts against at least two patient hitters. And he just dominated! Then he went a couple more innings for good measure.

He didn't pitch as long as Schilling, and his socks were white, but in my opinion his performance was just as clutch.

Frater Perdurabo
10-07-2005, 11:05 PM
Oh please. Only 10 of us wanted Marte off the roster (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1769)before the series.

Congratulations to BarbG (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3338), CarolinaSoxFan (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5360), Frater Perdurabo (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2347), HawkDJ (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=449), MarySwiss (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5532), SoxSideIrish (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6117), Suburbanbuddha (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2942), tifosiv122 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6169), Viva Medias B's (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4118) who like me are knowledgeable baseball fans. :cool:

:supernana:

I want him off again. Even my wife, who, bless her heart, isn't a huge baseball fan, knows Marte doesn't have it anymore.

There is no reason to keep anyone on the roster who simply can't - or refuses to - throw strikes. Anyone who gives up a hit and two walks without recording one single out doesn't deserve to be on any major league team.

I'm not sure Marte could pitch for the Cubs.

Put McCarthy in the pen. Having El Duque was huge tonight. Putting McCarthy in the pen would make the bullpen doubly formidable, because each of them could pitch three-plus scoreless innings in relief in as many as two games in a seven-game series.

McCarthy and El Duque in the pen have the potential to throw 12 scoreless relief innings in a long series.

By comparison, who here thinks Marte could throw twelve STRIKES in a seven-game series?

:kukoo:

scottjanssens
10-07-2005, 11:06 PM
Oh please. Only 10 of us wanted Marte off the roster (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1769)before the series.

I wanted Marte off the roster before the season.

Optipessimism
10-07-2005, 11:19 PM
That would work, except that the rules require a relief pitcher to pitch to one batter, unless he becomes injured during that at-bat.

Can he be injured by a player on his own team? I'd love to see AJ go out to the mound and stick a knee in Damaso's groin.

BTW, did you guys hear when Berman was saying how Ozzie didn't want Marte to pitch at home because the fans get all over him? Jesus man, the fans get all over him because he sucks, and it is for that simple reason that he shouldn't have been on the field in Fenway.

pearso66
10-07-2005, 11:44 PM
Oh please. Only 10 of us wanted Marte off the roster (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1769)before the series.

Congratulations to BarbG (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3338), CarolinaSoxFan (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5360), Frater Perdurabo (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2347), HawkDJ (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=449), MarySwiss (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5532), SoxSideIrish (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6117), Suburbanbuddha (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2942), tifosiv122 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6169), Viva Medias B's (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4118) who like me are knowledgeable baseball fans. :cool:

I have to say, I never saw that poll, and I wanted Marte off the team before the trade deadline. When I heard he was going to be suspended, I was excited, and then of course, it never happened.

beckett21
10-07-2005, 11:49 PM
Oh please. Only 10 of us wanted Marte off the roster (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1769)before the series.

I can assure you it was much more than 10.

elrod
10-07-2005, 11:58 PM
Oh please. Only 10 of us wanted Marte off the roster (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=1769)before the series.

Congratulations to BarbG (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=3338), CarolinaSoxFan (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5360), Frater Perdurabo (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2347), HawkDJ (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=449), MarySwiss (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=5532), SoxSideIrish (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6117), Suburbanbuddha (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=2942), tifosiv122 (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=6169), Viva Medias B's (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/member.php?u=4118) who like me are knowledgeable baseball fans. :cool:

I don't have any gripe with Ozzie for putting Marte on the team for this round. McCarthy was unavailable until Game Three anyway. And I really thought Marte might redeem himself, especially on the road. He pitched great in Minnesota down the stretch, after all. But because he failed this time, he doesn't get another chance. McCarthy is rested and can bail out anybody who struggles. Marte is done.

MRKARNO
10-08-2005, 12:00 AM
Absolutely.

Schilling in last year's ALCS might have set the standard for clutch, but that was a different kind of clutch.

If you just arrived on Earth, Schilling went deep into the game against the Yankees, shutting them down on pure guts, the whole time wondering if he was doing irreparable damage to his ankle.

Hernandez came in with no margin for error, after having scarcely pitched in two months. The World Champions, with the best offense in the league, at home in a game-deciding situation. No outs. Bases loaded. Ozzie willing to concede a run. An umpire with a tight strike zone. Full counts against at least two patient hitters. And he just dominated! Then he went a couple more innings for good measure.

He didn't pitch as long as Schilling, and his socks were white, but in my opinion his performance was just as clutch.

And don't forget that he got Ortiz, who had hit a HR earlier and nearly hit a 3-run shot earlier on strikes. Then he also got Manny to ground out to first after Manny had hit 2 HRs already.

Even though we were up 2 games to none, losing a game like that would have had an impact. It wasn't so much the overall importance as the importance within the context of the game. I don't think it will go down in history as being up there with some of the best performances of all time, simply because of it being game 3 in a 2-0 situation. However, all things considered, it was truly incredible. His performance needs to be looked at as being great in a Kirk Gibson type of way: the symbolism and the drama of the moment was more important than whether or not the game was game 5 or game 7.

mike squires
10-08-2005, 12:04 AM
I agree with everyone here. I was thinking El Duque was coming in. I called my brother immediatly and said how do you like this move. I told him Duque should have been the one called in. Little did I know he eventually would and pull off one of the greatest magic tricks I ever saw!

In defense of Marte, there was a reason Guillen was barking at the home plate umpire at least 3 or 4 pitches. Marte was getting squeezed...

SoxFan78
10-08-2005, 12:07 AM
Marte has no spot on the ALCS roster. He had one chance to solidify his spot on the post season roster, he failed miserably. How many times do we have to see Damaso walk guys and let up runs?

Hopefully no more times this year.

CaptainBallz
10-08-2005, 12:43 AM
I didn't have much audio for the game at the bar we were at, but did Boston fans cheer when Marte came in?

Banix12
10-08-2005, 12:50 AM
I get this sinking feeling that Marte stays on the roster, mostly because I think Ozzie is going to use the tight strikezone by the umpire as a rationalization and say that he really didn't pitch as bad as the walks tell us.

Marte has great stuff but has completely lost control of it. We've been sitting around all season waiting for this guy to figure it all out and go back to his 03 form and it hasn't happened. This is not the time to try and rely on a guy who is "figuring it out". Before this I would have demoted Viz off the roster but while Viz lacks the stuff he at least throws strikes.

chidonez
10-08-2005, 12:52 AM
Not where I was..., in Boston... They didn't have a clue who he was. Side note: I though Viz came in after Marte. It took me a moment to realize I was seeing El Duce. I was nervous, but things turned out well. (Have you ever seen Ozzie yell at Marte like that? Where was Ozzie earlier in the season to expect that things would have been different?)

Brian26
10-08-2005, 12:54 AM
And I really thought Marte might redeem himself, especially on the road. He pitched great in Minnesota down the stretch, after all.

Yeah, but how long ago was that? We are talking weeks. Rooney brought this up today. When you need to start going back weeks to remember the last time a guy had a good *inning*, then there's a major problem. Marte's season should be now officially over. BMac and Duque on the postseason roster. No questions asked.

SoxFan64
10-08-2005, 12:55 AM
I don't have any gripe with Ozzie for putting Marte on the team for this round. McCarthy was unavailable until Game Three anyway. And I really thought Marte might redeem himself, especially on the road. He pitched great in Minnesota down the stretch, after all. But because he failed this time, he doesn't get another chance. McCarthy is rested and can bail out anybody who struggles. Marte is done.

That's how I see it. I was still a Marte fan. Not any more. I would like another lefty but I don't see one better than BMac.

So Brandon come on downnnnnn and play

chaerulez
10-08-2005, 12:59 AM
Marte after today has no business pitching anymore this season. McCarthy really deserves to be out there again, after what he did for this team his last 4-5 appearances.

slobes
10-08-2005, 01:08 AM
I thought I saw Hermanson warming up in the bullpen. But if he is too hurt to pitch in games, I would much rather have Mccarthy on the roster than Hermanson. However, I'd still probably rather have an injured Hermanson than a healthy Marte.

iamkoza
10-08-2005, 01:11 AM
I was bashing marte this year when it wasnt popular... but even I kinda felt bad because he really got squeezed by the ump on 3-4 pitches.


But he may still be on the roster say if the yankees end up being our opponent since they have plenty of lefties (Tino, Giambi, Matsui) If we play the angels, the only lefties the y have are G Anderson and Erstad, and Finley... Anderson and finley have been awful this year. You might get away with only one lefty in the pen v. angels

PaleHoseGeorge
10-08-2005, 01:13 AM
I'm sorry, but Marte HAS to adjust to the umpire's zone. Instead he just gave up. Compare his performance to El Duque's. It's no comparison at all.

Men vs. boys.

:butter
"Where have I heard that before?"

Banix12
10-08-2005, 01:18 AM
I was bashing marte this year when it wasnt popular... but even I kinda felt bad because he really got squeezed by the ump on 3-4 pitches.


But he may still be on the roster say if the yankees end up being our opponent since they have plenty of lefties (Tino, Giambi, Matsui) If we play the angels, the only lefties the y have are G Anderson and Erstad, and Finley... Anderson and finley have been awful this year. You might get away with only one lefty in the pen v. angels

Another good excuse for Ozzie to use, however I still stand by my assessment that a left hander who struggles more than your right handed relievers at getting lefties out is completely useless.

However Ozzie likes playing these lefty-righty matchups so I doubt he agrees with me. Again, I have that sick feeling that Marte stays on the roster and Ozzie will use him

ilsox7
10-08-2005, 01:19 AM
This should be easy. Can't we just get a Mod to give Marte a lifetime rip?

Jerome
10-08-2005, 01:30 AM
if ozzie wanted a LHP, why didn't he just go with cotts instead of marte in that situation? i thought marte stopped getting appearances for a reason.

Ozzie knew that Cotts would most likely get the job done. But he was banking on El Duque coming in and performing a miracle. Thus his offseason value will see a Beltran-like increse, thus netting top prospects from a team like Boston, New York, or the Cubs seeking the final piece to the playoff puzzle in 2006.

I was hoping for Cotts in that situation as well. He's the #1 lefty. Marte is worthless. Thankfully El Duque bailed him and Ozzie out.

I just can't understand what it is about this guy that makes him so good in postseason. Does he have more movement? Does he reach back to give it a couple extra mph? Does he focus more on control? Whatever it is, I know that we have the luxury of basically two quality starting pitchers per game with him AND BMac in the pen.

jehosaphat
10-08-2005, 01:36 AM
Marte is a head case. He has great difficulty throwing strikes, which is the kiss of death for a relief pitcher. This game did nothing to help his confidence. He's not going to do better the next time. I feel sorry for him, but, his stuff is not that good right now and he is inclined to walk people in clutch situations, and ........., well, it has all been said. I just don't understand how Ozzie can perceive that Marte will help the team over the next 8-14 games. So, count me in on the chorus - Dump Marte, bring on BMac.

John Barrett
10-08-2005, 01:37 AM
:pee:kmarte


ditch this dude .... no place in MLB ....He Gone!

StockdaleForVeep
10-08-2005, 03:05 AM
:pee:kmarte


ditch this dude .... no place in MLB ....He Gone!

Christ guys have bad\off times, where were yer comments when he had a 1.89 era last season?

Are you also someone who wants vizcaino off the team because all you know if the rough first few weeks he had? Yes marte didnt pitch good today but neither did hernandez the last month of the season, why wasnt anyone screaming when Ozzie called in for the duke, regardless of post season era, his era for THIS SEASON is over 5

edit- i misread my stats, my era number for marte was for his 03 season

Fred Manrique
10-08-2005, 03:35 AM
Christ guys have bad\off times, where were yer comments when he had a 1.89 era last season?

Are you also someone who wants vizcaino off the team because all you know if the rough first few weeks he had? Yes marte didnt pitch good today but neither did hernandez the last month of the season, why wasnt anyone screaming when Ozzie called in for the duke, regardless of post season era, his era for THIS SEASON is over 5

Marte's ERA was 3.42 last year, I'm not sure where your stats come from.

To further negate your point, the main problem with Marte is that he allows so many inherited runners to score, or puts us in positions where we have to have another pitcher bail us out (like El Duque thankfully did today). His ERA looks far better than he actually is...

Stroker Ace
10-08-2005, 03:39 AM
Yeah, Marte's composure is worse than a rookie's. BRING IN B-MAC!!!!

StockdaleForVeep
10-08-2005, 03:58 AM
Marte's ERA was 3.42 last year, I'm not sure where your stats come from.

To further negate your point, the main problem with Marte is that he allows so many inherited runners to score, or puts us in positions where we have to have another pitcher bail us out (like El Duque thankfully did today). His ERA looks far better than he actually is...

My appology, i was looking to his 03 stats

Banix12
10-08-2005, 04:00 AM
Marte's ERA was 3.42 last year, I'm not sure where your stats come from.

To further negate your point, the main problem with Marte is that he allows so many inherited runners to score, or puts us in positions where we have to have another pitcher bail us out (like El Duque thankfully did today). His ERA looks far better than he actually is...

Yup, the fact that his ERA is under 4 is a testament to how good guys like Politte, Cotts, and Hermanson have been all season in cleaning up his messes.

I wasn't totally sure about Hernandez before all this but man his arm looks fresh and fantastic.

I was thinking and this is all very, very premature, but since El Duque's overall, season long, stamina seems so bad now and it looks like he'll have a hard time ever pitching a full season of games as a starter anymore, how about trying to move him full time to the bullpen next season? Certainly that would be the only way to keep him on the roster next season and of course he would have to accept the assignment (if he wants to be a starter so be it) but I'd love to find a way to keep him because of situations like these and primarily because he seems to have made a positive influence on Contreras.

doctorlecter
10-08-2005, 04:37 AM
I hope Ozzie comes to his senses with Marte as well. The ESPN crew said that he admitted during the pregame meetings that he's not going to use Damaso at home, and a road crowd/pressure situation can get to him as well. This pen is deep, Neal is enough to get lefties, and he's damn good against righties as well. McCarthy has got to make it. At this point, I would trust Bajerneu over Marte


The umpire blew, my family was screaming, I'm lucky I didn't break the computer after throwing some objects around to relieve my anger, especially after the first 5 innings when anything near the strike zone for Wakefield was called a strike while even Freddy was squeezed.

In the regular season, Marte had a .267 BAA lefties, with a .389 OBP, and a OPS of .767!
Here is a short list of hitters who had less than a .767 OPS this year: Carlos Beltran, Ivan Rodriguez, Hank Blalock, Garrett Anderson, and Aaron Rowand.
For a guy who is a left-handed "specialist," this guy gets lit up like a Christmas tree. Basically, everyone's numbers in the pen are better against lefties (with the notable exception of Vizcaino).
It's time to take this pooch to the pound!!!!!!!

ode to veeck
10-08-2005, 08:18 AM
Marte has been a very effective pitcher for us at times in the past couple of years, but he clearly is not on a hot streak, and has had some really bad outings in recent weeks. I think it's a no brainer here to go with who's hot and who's not and bring in Branden MacCarthy as a replacement on the ALCS roster, who has been coming along very well. Branden would be great for long relief, whereas Marte's effectiveness as a lefty out of the pen hasn't even been as good as the rest of the righties in the pen (in the same situations).

jerry myers
10-08-2005, 11:49 AM
if marte has hidden talent, let him try to find it somewhere else. last night was not new, the only thing that was new was he didnt hit anyone. can we trade him after season? we could probably get a good trade off him.

jerry myers
10-08-2005, 11:53 AM
Marte's ERA was 3.42 last year, I'm not sure where your stats come from.

To further negate your point, the main problem with Marte is that he allows so many inherited runners to score, or puts us in positions where we have to have another pitcher bail us out (like El Duque thankfully did today). His ERA looks far betbter than he actually is...but this is same ol same ol for marte.

kevin57
10-08-2005, 12:01 PM
:pee:kmarte


ditch this dude .... no place in MLB ....He Gone!

LMAO!

We Sox fans can diverge on a lot of topics, but on Marte, it's nearly 100% "GET HIM OUTTA HERE!"

I tip my hat to Ozzie on 95% of his managing, but he is completely, totally blind to this guy's incompetence.

If he puts Marte in during the second round, I think Ozzie may get lynched by the fans. (Joke!)

Cotts is ten times the reliever Marte is.

hawkjt
10-08-2005, 12:11 PM
Look, I too was in Ozzies corner on Damaso's value against these lefty heavy hitting playoff teams. Obviously Damaso is still struggling with his release point. I was concerned with bringing in a sidewinder when Wegner had a narrow zone that extended high only. But in Damaso's defense if he gets at least two clear strike calls in his stint it could have been a totally differant story. It killed me that they showed the K zone only once and the ball was not even touching the square inside the zone and Wegner called a ball. Not a comment from the berman crew on that call. Then they stopped showing the K zone due to embarrassment for the ump. At least 1-2 other marte pitches were strikes and duques first pitch was right down the middle.

I look at alternatives to Damaso- Sanders- no way. Bajenau- no way.

Sorry but I still will support Oz when he decides to keep Marte on the roster. He knows the teams ahead and it can click in at any time just as it did for JOse. Marte is still the key to our bullpen. With him going well we will be untouchable. Without him we are limited in flexibiltiy. I beg sox fans not to boo him like the Bosox fans did not boo TonyG.

johnny bench
10-08-2005, 01:02 PM
Please explain the game situation under which Ozzie will put McCarthy into a game in either the ALCS or WS. If you think it's other than mop-up duty in a blowout game then you are kidding yourself.

JB

BeviBall!
10-08-2005, 01:10 PM
Blum out... 12 pitchers including Marte and McCarthy is the most likely scenario.

mdep524
10-08-2005, 01:14 PM
Please explain the game situation under which Ozzie will put McCarthy into a game in either the ALCS or WS. If you think it's other than mop-up duty in a blowout game then you are kidding yourself.

JB If we face the Angels in the ALCS I could easily see an extra inning game, especially considering their awesome bullpen. Who would you rather trot out there in the 12th inning: Brandon McCarthy or Luis Vizcaino?

McCarthy gives you the ability to go SEVERAL strong innings. And he's been lights out. Leaving him off the roster for a one inning, inconsistent pitcher like Vizcaino (or Marte, but that's a different story entirely) would be a mistake.

white sox bill
10-08-2005, 02:01 PM
Elrod you beat me to this thread--Marte must NEVER throw a pitch again for the Sox. Peroid.

johnny bench
10-08-2005, 03:01 PM
If we face the Angels in the ALCS I could easily see an extra inning game, especially considering their awesome bullpen. Who would you rather trot out there in the 12th inning: Brandon McCarthy or Luis Vizcaino?


This is why Garland is on the roster. I cannot imagine that Garland gets to start a game in the playoffs. If Garland doesn't start, and he shouldn't IMO, then McCarthy has no role.

ilsox7
10-08-2005, 03:08 PM
This is why Garland is on the roster. I cannot imagine that Garland gets to start a game in the playoffs. If Garland doesn't start, and he shouldn't IMO, then McCarthy has no role.

Garland is either starting Game 1 or 2 in the ALCS. That's pretty much been established by Ozzie, if I am not mistaken.

johnny bench
10-08-2005, 03:14 PM
Garland is either starting Game 1 or 2 in the ALCS. That's pretty much been established by Ozzie, if I am not mistaken.

OK.

Even under that circumstance, I still find it hard to believe that McCarthy gets meaningful innings.

ilsox7
10-08-2005, 03:15 PM
OK.

Even under that circumstance, I still find it hard to believe that McCarthy gets meaningful innings.

Having McCarthy on the roster, whether or not he ever warms up in the bullpen, is the definition of addition by subtraction.

Eric Bartman, today's top dope
10-08-2005, 03:28 PM
GREAT THREAD

The decision should have been B-Mac vs. Marte the whole time.

Banix12
10-08-2005, 04:03 PM
Please explain the game situation under which Ozzie will put McCarthy into a game in either the ALCS or WS. If you think it's other than mop-up duty in a blowout game then you are kidding yourself.

JB

I assume it's just going to be mop-up duty with a slight possibility of an extra inning game.

Right now Marte doesn't deserve to pitch in anything other than mop-up duty so it's not like it would be a huge change.

We already have five pitchers in the pen that are pretty much trustworthy, Politte, Cotts, Jenks, Hermanson (even with the back) and El Duque. Vizzy had a decent second half and deserves to be in there before Marte. Marte is now the low man on the totem pole and it's just a matter of which guy do you want for your last man out of the pen. I see more potential use for an extra long man now that it seems Hernandez is going to see a bit more action than originally planned.

JorgeFabregas
10-08-2005, 04:18 PM
but this is same ol same ol for marte.
No, he's gotten consistently worse.
WHIP for the last four years (approximately, as I didn't figure the partial inning remainders correctly on a couple of them)
1.72-2005
1.22-2004
1.04-2003
.91-2002
He's had the benefit of a good bullpen picking him up this year...his ERA would be higher on other teams. For instance, last night his ERA was 0.0. Furthermore, because he needs other pitchers to bail him out, his innings per appearance have gone way down. It used to be automatic that he'd pitch a full inning.

JorgeFabregas
10-08-2005, 04:21 PM
Please explain the game situation under which Ozzie will put McCarthy into a game in either the ALCS or WS. If you think it's other than mop-up duty in a blowout game then you are kidding yourself.

JB

If a starting pitcher clearly doesn't have it and gives up 5-6 runs in the first inning or two, McCarthy can come in to hold down the fort. The Sox may come back in such a situation, or it may be end up being mop-up duty. You dismiss mop-up duty as if it's unimportant because the game's likely lost, but someone like McCarthy can keep the rest of your bullpen fresh for subsequent games.

tstrike2000
10-08-2005, 04:24 PM
The only reasons I saw Ozzie wanting to use him are because he's from Venezuela (Ozzie's personal reason) and a leftie out of the pen. BMac is a righty, but it doesn't matter if your lefty is walking everyone. Gotta go with the hot hand!

ilsox7
10-08-2005, 04:26 PM
The only reasons I saw Ozzie wanting to use him are because he's from Venezuela (Ozzie's personal reason) and a leftie out of the pen. BMac is a righty, but it doesn't matter if your lefty is walking everyone. Gotta go with the hot hand!

Marte is not from Venezuela.

JorgeFabregas
10-08-2005, 04:30 PM
I'm not sure where this idea that Ozzie sticks with Venezuelan players too long comes from. Sure, he may have left Freddy Garcia in games for too long, but he has the same policy for all his starting pitchers.

Chisox003
10-08-2005, 04:32 PM
I'm not sure where this idea that Ozzie sticks with Venezuelan players too long comes from. Sure, he may have left Freddy Garcia in games for too long, but he has the same policy for all his starting pitchers.
I don't know where it comes from either, but it's dumb. I've only read it from a couple posters here on WSI, other than that I sure don't notice it. Judging from how well this team has done, and how the players rave about Ozzie, I don't think we have much to worry about. :rolleyes:

harwar
10-08-2005, 04:34 PM
Ozzie just plays the game by different rules than some.He leads these guys like the captain of a pirate ship.

tstrike2000
10-08-2005, 04:35 PM
Marte is not from Venezuela.

You're right, I stand corrected. I was thinking of Freddy Garcia. My bad, sorry bout that. The rest holds true.

CYGarland20
10-08-2005, 05:56 PM
Viz out, McCarthy in. That's all

CYGarland20
10-08-2005, 06:02 PM
This is why Garland is on the roster. I cannot imagine that Garland gets to start a game in the playoffs. If Garland doesn't start, and he shouldn't IMO, then McCarthy has no role. So your saying we shouldn't start a pitcher w/ 18 wins and a 3.50 era? Your :nuts: ...........If anything, McCarthy should take Garcia's spot in the rotation, but there's know way in hell that will happen............ McCarthy will be used in Long relief if one of the starter's stumble, and that's it.

elrod
10-08-2005, 06:07 PM
Marte is from the Dominican Republic, not Venezuela. Ozzie has no "personal" interest in playing Marte. He thought he could be a reliable lefty. That's all.

HotelWhiteSox
10-08-2005, 06:16 PM
Grrr, Stone and Coop have both been on the Score pushing for Marte today, basically with the same points:

The two possible teams we will face have very good LH hitters. They gave examples of Anderson from Anaheim and Matsui and Giambi for the Yanks. Cooper seemed to get mad that the hosts would imply leaving off Marte (probably sick of the question), and set he's a lefty, emotions have nothing to do with it.

Grr again. First off, in the case of Anderson, he hits lefties just as well/if not better than righties. Now to the point in general, what is the point if the LHP if all he will do is walk people? He obviously looks fragile against a left handed hitter. Many have already brought up that he has bad stats against LH hitting this year.

I think we all agree that we don't give a **** about having a certain number of lefties, we want the best pitchers, some of the situational stuff is crap, and I would be real surprised if they are that ignorant to put him on the roster again!

CYGarland20
10-08-2005, 06:23 PM
Grrr, Stone and Coop have both been on the Score pushing for Marte today, basically with the same points:

The two possible teams we will face have very good LH hitters. They gave examples of Anderson from Anaheim and Matsui and Giambi for the Yanks. Cooper seemed to get mad that the hosts would imply leaving off Marte (probably sick of the question), and set he's a lefty, emotions have nothing to do with it.

Grr again. First off, in the case of Anderson, he hits lefties just as well/if not better than righties. Now to the point in general, what is the point if the LHP if all he will do is walk people? He obviously looks fragile against a left handed hitter. Many have already brought up that he has bad stats against LH hitting this year.

I think we all agree that we don't give a **** about having a certain number of lefties, we want the best pitchers, some of the situational stuff is crap, and I would be real surprised if they are that ignorant to put him on the roster again! Marte's #'s vs Lh's this year are......23 ip, 24 hits, ONLY 1 Hr, 15 bb, 32 K's.......Now those are not THAT bad. I agree they should be better, but I think we can all agree that Marte has the stuff to get out a tough LH, and could still come through if we need him. I still don't understand why we need Vizcaino, he's completely useless.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-08-2005, 06:30 PM
....
I think we all agree that we don't give a **** about having a certain number of lefties, we want the best pitchers, some of the situational stuff is crap, and I would be real surprised if they are that ignorant to put him on the roster again!

News Flash. The 2005 Sox are down to their last 8-14 games. We do not need 25 guys to handle the load between here and there. Ozzie needs to shorten his bench and his bullpen. Except for mop up duty in a blowout loss, only the best guys should EVER be on the playing field from here on out. They have all winter to rest up again.
:cool:

Thus the two weakest pitchers (probably Marte and Vizcaino) and the two weakest position players (probably Blum and Ozuna) are strictly there as decoys and window dressing. It would be complete idiocy to let any of these four get playing time at the expense of the other 21 players clearly superior to these four.
:o:

Marte in the bullpen gives the opposing manager something to worry about, something no right hander (not even McCarthy) can replace. Now if Ozzie was just smart enough to NEVER actually signal for Marte from the bullpen, we would be all set.
:?:

ilsox7
10-08-2005, 06:41 PM
Marte's #'s vs Lh's this year are......23 ip, 24 hits, ONLY 1 Hr, 15 bb, 32 K's.......Now those are not THAT bad. I agree they should be better, but I think we can all agree that Marte has the stuff to get out a tough LH, and could still come through if we need him. I still don't understand why we need Vizcaino, he's completely useless.

Those numbers are pretty bad. If we factor in 3 HBP versus LH, Marte has faced 108 LH this year. Of those 108, 24 have reached by hit, 15 by walk, and 3 by HBP. That's 42 of 108 left-handed hitters who got on base versus Marte. That is a .389 OBP versus Marte when the batter is left-handed. Plain and simple, that is AWFUL.

MRKARNO
10-08-2005, 06:43 PM
White Sox potential playoff relievers vs lefties, ranked by OPS against:

1. Jenks .414
2. Cotts .559
3. Politte .579
4. McCarthy .602
5. Hermanson .721
6. Marte .767
7. Vizcaino .857
8. El Duque .860

Look at that. Even Dustin Hermanson has been doing a better job against lefties this year. McCarthy has actually been signifcantly better against lefties than righties thus far (though his earlier starts without a decent changeup may be skewing that). Marte's job is to get lefties out, but he's 6th best in the bullpen in that category! He has no use to us. Time for him to go.

Bum
10-08-2005, 06:47 PM
if ozzie wanted a LHP, why didn't he just go with cotts instead of marte in that situation? i thought marte stopped getting appearances for a reason.

He was saving Cotts for Ortiz later in the game. It was only the 6th inning. He used Marte in the exact role he was intended for - middle to late left/left matchups. Personally, I also hated seeing him come into the game, but I understand what Ozzie was trying to do. If you agree that Cotts was a bullet to be used later, then the only other options were Hernandez and perhaps Politte, and vs. those 3 lefties there was more risk of a game tying HR .

CYGarland20
10-08-2005, 06:48 PM
Those numbers are pretty bad. If we factor in 3 HBP versus LH, Marte has faced 108 LH this year. Of those 108, 24 have reached by hit, 15 by walk, and 3 by HBP. That's 42 of 108 left-handed hitters who got on base versus Marte. That is a .389 OBP versus Marte when the batter is left-handed. Plain and simple, that is AWFUL. I agree there not good, but there not AWFUL. Keep in mind he only gave up 1 hr against those 108 batters, and he has also struck out 32 of them...... He should only come in to face a tough Lh, who has problems vs Lh's, w/ no one on base in a tight game, and that's it. If he can't get the guy out, Oz should get him out. I also think Cotts should be the 1st option, but if he's been used or is unavailable, I'd go w/ MArte/Politte. My point about keeping Marte is he gives us another LH, and makes the opposing manager have to think about that. Vizcaino brings nothing to the table, besides mop-up.

ilsox7
10-08-2005, 06:57 PM
I agree there not good, but there not AWFUL. Keep in mind he only gave up 1 hr against those 108 batters, and he has also struck out 32 of them. He should only come in to face a tough Lh w/ no one on base in a tight game, and that's it. If he can't get the guy out, Oz should get him out. I also think Cotts should be the 1st option, but if he's been used or is unavailable, I'd go w/ MArte/Politte. My point about keeping Marte is he gives us another LH, and makes the opposing manager have to think about that. Vizcaino brings nothing to the table, besides mop-up.

Besides Viz (.402) Marte has the worst OBP against LH on the entire pitching staff. He is not a lefty specialist. To put this in perspective, the Angels do not have a single pitcher on their staff, left-handed or right-handed, who is this bad against LH.

As was mentioned, the only way you even conceivably keep Marte on the ALCS Roster is purely as a decoy. With El Duque, Cotts, Cliff, Hermy, and Jenks, you have enough guys to cover 4 innings and potentially shut the other team down. There is no excuse for bringing Marte in another game.

Also, consider that Ozzie is on record as saying he doesn't want to bring Marte in at home b/c of how fragile his psyche is and knowing the crowd will be so against the move. Do we really want to lay our post-season hopes on a guy who cannot get over the mental aspect of being booed, let alone the mental aspect of throwing effective pitches?

CYGarland20
10-08-2005, 07:00 PM
Besides Viz (.402) Marte has the worst OBP against LH on the entire pitching staff. He is not a lefty specialist. To put this in perspective, the Angels do not have a single pitcher on their staff, left-handed or right-handed, who is this bad against LH.

As was mentioned, the only way you even conceivably keep Marte on the ALCS Roster is purely as a decoy. With El Duque, Cotts, Cliff, Hermy, and Jenks, you have enough guys to cover 4 innings and potentially shut the other team down. There is no excuse for bringing Marte in another game.

Also, consider that Ozzie is on record as saying he doesn't want to bring Marte in at home b/c of how fragile his psyche is and knowing the crowd will be so against the move. Do we really want to lay our post-season hopes on a guy who cannot get over the mental aspect of being booed, let alone the mental aspect of throwing effective pitches? Believe me, I don't want to see Marte in there either. But if it comes down to having either him or Viz on the roster, you gotta take Marte

KyWhiSoxFan
10-08-2005, 07:17 PM
Marte has made his last appearance for the Sox. He will never be seen again in uniform. The only drawback of dropping him from the playoff roster is he will have no trade value. But that is fine. As long as he's gone, that's what matters.

FielderJones
10-08-2005, 07:24 PM
My point about keeping Marte is he gives us another LH, and makes the opposing manager have to think about that. Vizcaino brings nothing to the table, besides mop-up.

If I were Scosia, or Torre, or LaRussa, I'd want my LH hitter up against Marte. It's a free baserunner. :angry:

Again, what is the situation where you'd want Marte on the mound? Mop-up? We've got Viz for that. Long relief in a close game? Gimme El Duque. Their toughest LH hitter? Cotts.

Time to push a runner on first into scoring position? Marte.

CYGarland20
10-08-2005, 07:45 PM
If I were Scosia, or Torre, or LaRussa, I'd want my LH hitter up against Marte. It's a free baserunner. :angry:

Again, what is the situation where you'd want Marte on the mound? Mop-up? We've got Viz for that. Long relief in a close game? Gimme El Duque. Their toughest LH hitter? Cotts.

Time to push a runner on first into scoring position? Marte.Read the whole post

FielderJones
10-08-2005, 07:59 PM
Read the whole post

I did. What's to think about if you're the opposing manager? That if you bring in a lefthander you're going to get a baserunner? Marte has been money in the bank for the opposition for the past four weeks. The playoffs are not the time to get a head-case straight.

Banix12
10-08-2005, 09:09 PM
I agree there not good, but there not AWFUL. Keep in mind he only gave up 1 hr against those 108 batters, and he has also struck out 32 of them...... He should only come in to face a tough Lh, who has problems vs Lh's, w/ no one on base in a tight game, and that's it. If he can't get the guy out, Oz should get him out. I also think Cotts should be the 1st option, but if he's been used or is unavailable, I'd go w/ MArte/Politte. My point about keeping Marte is he gives us another LH, and makes the opposing manager have to think about that. Vizcaino brings nothing to the table, besides mop-up.

So basically the same move he did yesterday when be brought him in against Trot Nixon? The same guy who immediately singled against him?

Marte brings far less to the table than Viz because Viz can at least throw strikes and had a solid second half. These teams have been scouting the White Sox for over a month and have the same stats we use for these arguments, maybe more complicated stats. Marte is useless even as a decoy because if he hadn't been exposed as a fraud before yesterday he certainly was yesterday.

He's been brought in against lefties all this season in the situation you describe and while I don't know the exact number of times it ended with runners on base and a mess for Hermie or Cliff to fix I know it was a very common situation this season.

The only reason I don't want Marte on the roster is because Ozzie is going to use him, if only to give him a shot at redemption. I forsee him using the tight strikezone last night as an excuse to keep him and he'll get a shot in game 3.

No doubt Marte has better stuff than Viz, but Marte can't use it effectively anymore. Even if you go by just stats he is one of the worst pitchers on any of the playoff rosters.

PaleHoseGeorge
10-08-2005, 09:15 PM
I must say I'm becoming more and more amused by this argument we're having in this thread. It's like the playoff edition of the World's Tallest Midget contest.

"Marte is worse!"

"No. Vizcaino is worse!"

"No. D'angelo Jimenez is worse!"

etcetera, etcetera.

Tuesday can't get here quick enough.

:redneck

FarWestChicago
10-08-2005, 09:21 PM
.:tomatoaward

Banix12
10-08-2005, 09:25 PM
I must say I'm becoming more and more amused by this argument we're having in this thread. It's like the playoff edition of the World's Tallest Midget contest.

"Marte is worse!"

"No. Vizcaino is worse!"

"No. D'angelo Jimenez is worse!"

etcetera, etcetera.

Tuesday can't get here quick enough.

:redneck

I was trying to keep this thread going till someone uttered the words "tallest midget". :D:

And George I agree with you, in the playoffs you shorten your bench and pen and there are guys who the manager should not even consider putting in games.

Anybody at least a little amused though that before the last series Baseball Tonight was all like "Damaso Marte is going to be one of the most important players for Chicago in the Boston-Chicago series."

johnny bench
10-08-2005, 10:27 PM
I believe that in addition to the long awaited midget reference, we also established that the case for adding McCarthy to the roster is pretty narrow.

Banix12
10-09-2005, 12:06 AM
I believe that in addition to the long awaited midget reference, we also established that the case for adding McCarthy to the roster is pretty narrow.

Just because it's a narrow case, doesn't mean it's a bad one.

The case for keeping Marte on the roster is pathetic.

WHIP's of white sox pitchers last few years.
Marte 05 - 1.72
Koch 04 - 1.71 (1.65 full season between Fla and Chi)
Koch 03 - 1.64
Mike Jackson 04 - 1.50
Shingo 05 - 1.60
Schoenweis 04 - 1.58
Felix Diaz 04 - 1.58
Rick White 03 - 1.45
Gary Glover 03 - 1.60

Marte has basically become the lefthanded Billy Koch

RadioheadRocks
10-09-2005, 12:50 AM
Christ guys have bad\off times, where were yer comments when he had a 1.89 era last season?

edit- i misread my stats, my era number for marte was for his 03 season

We have a term for players in that category... they're called "flashes in the pan".

elrod
10-09-2005, 01:39 AM
If Marte was the Marte of 2002 or 2003, he would be a key guy in the pen. But for some reason, Marte is not that guy anymore. I don't know if it's purely mental or if he's hiding an injury, but he is completely unreliable this year. He is worse than his ERA suggests, actually. And he blew his one chance at redemption in the playoffs. HE GONE!

Vince
10-09-2005, 02:16 AM
Yeah, I'd definitely swap McCarthy for Marte. Marte's a total head case right now. You can see it in his eyes.

RetireWoodys28
10-09-2005, 04:07 AM
By all means, yes! McCarthy for Marte almost seems like a no-brainer now (after I wanted Marte in the ALDS for the extra leftie... DOH!). My ideal ALCS roster would take it a step further though, swapping Gload for Blum. Why keep Blum for the D if you're keeping Pablo and Willie (who you should keep) too? I think when this team has played consistently at its best they have taken early leads, and Gload's bat gives you a few more options towards the top of the lineup. Plus, positionally he fits in well with Harris and Ozuna.

Domeshot17
10-09-2005, 04:53 AM
my 2 cents here

Mccarthy out for the 5 game series for Damaso- CORRECT MOVE,having 6 guys who can start in a 5 game series counting el duque who could come in if someone got shelled and throw 3-5 innings ( oh hey he did that. woot!) wasnt needed. Damaso was showing signs of improving, but I think this was the straw that broke Ozzies back. Did not defend Damaso in the paper today, saying the zone shrunk, but he did not make the adjustment for his team. was upset because had we lost, Damaso would have beaten us, not the red sox. IMO, you have a guy now who cant pitch at home, because the crowd will break his confidence. You have a guy ozzie does not trust finally, even worse. Plus, for as much as people Rave on his stuff.

Damaso's pitchers pitches ( breaking balls out of the zone to get chased) were not being swung at, El Duque's were. So Damaso must really have not been close with his pitches, and his stuff just is not there

in a 7 game series, especially if it goes to 6 or 7, the bullpen gets worn more. Mccarthy, if the sox got up 3-0, could throw game 4 and make it very possible to have garland/Freddy/Buehlre (depending on how the rotation sets up, Ozzie today in the paper debating Garland or Jose in game 1) available game 1 of the world series if it got there. He can throw long in an extra inning game and be effective, and keep el duque fresh.

Completely agree on Gload. He showed in Cleveland he can play the OF in a pinch, he would be the only bat off the bench with ANY power, and we dont need 3 utility guys. Personally, I leave Willie off for Gload, because Willie and PAblo are 2 of the same, but I guess with Willie hitting well in his call up, he earned it. Gload beat Cleveland tho, the hit in game 2 and the catch in game 3, HUGE.

Gload is almost a must if we can advance to the world series because the need for bats off the bench becomes so much more essential, in that case, I put serious consideration into Anderson as well

Banix12
10-09-2005, 04:58 AM
My ideal ALCS roster would take it a step further though, swapping Gload for Blum.

Blum or Gload, now that's a tallest midget contest, and kinda pointless since neither will ever play.

For what it's worth, Phil Rogers sticks in his two cents on the Marte/McCarthy debate.
Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-051008rogerssox,1,6603408.column?coll=cs-home-headlines)

McCarthy will get some consideration for the 11-man pitching staff, possibly as a bullpen replacement for whipping-boy reliever Damaso Marte. This is a really tough call, and, if it's me, I stick with Marte, if only because he gives Guillen one less thing to think about.

Hernandez, the star of Game 3, is a starting pitcher moonlighting in the bullpen. He says he isn't worried about doing the job but qualified his answer, adding that "as long as I get enough time to warm up, I'll be fine." McCarthy would be in the same situation.

Although McCarthy might be a better matchup than Marte in a certain situation, even against left-handed hitters like Garret Anderson, Darin Erstad, Jason Giambi, Hideki Matsui and Robinson Cano, trouble comes fast in the sixth and seventh innings. Marte, who has done this at this level for four years, is a better option than worrying if McCarthy can get ready quickly.

I swear he thinks sox fans are unfairly picking on Marte. I remember him saying something similar to that right after the game where he plunked the two guys against KC. Who cares if Marte can warm up quicker than McCarthy if Marte can't get the ball over the plate when he's ready to go?

Unrelated to McCarthy/Marte but here just might be the craziest statement of the year...

Because McCarthy established himself as a front-runner for the 2006 rotation, Hernandez has seemed like the likely odd man out. But a gutsy organization could hang onto him as the fifth starter and deal Garland, who should have trade value and can be eligible for free agency after '06.

Foulke You
10-09-2005, 05:09 AM
Blum or Gload, now that's a tallest midget contest, and kinda pointless since neither will ever play.

For what it's worth, Phil Rogers sticks in his two cents on the Marte/McCarthy debate.



Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/cs-051008rogerssox,1,6603408.column?coll=cs-home-headlines)

I swear he thinks sox fans are unfairly picking on Marte. I remember him saying something similar to that right after the game where he plunked the two guys against KC. Who cares if Marte can warm up quicker than McCarthy if Marte can't get the ball over the plate when he's ready to go?
Exactly! Give me a pitcher who has control of his breaking pitches. Plus, the "tough lefties" scenario that Phil Rogers brought up is a moot point when the left handed reliever in question can't get lefties out!! Marte has pitched better against RIGHTIES this year, not LEFTIES. The fact that he pitches left handed means nothing if he isn't effective!

There is no doubting that Marte is nasty when he has his control but why take the risk? Bringing in Marte in a close ballgame in the ALCS is like putting all your money on black and spinning the roulette wheel and hoping everything comes up aces. I prefer to have better odds.

Foulke You
10-09-2005, 05:11 AM
I must say I'm becoming more and more amused by this argument we're having in this thread. It's like the playoff edition of the World's Tallest Midget contest.

"Marte is worse!"

"No. Vizcaino is worse!"

"No. D'angelo Jimenez is worse!"

etcetera, etcetera.

Tuesday can't get here quick enough.

:redneck
Chris Snopek cannot possibly fill Robin Ventura's shoes at 3B!! :redneck

vafan
10-09-2005, 11:55 AM
I think you need to put McCarthy on the roster...reason being he can get lefties out better than Marte and he can also give you some very long relief like El Duque. We get into an extra inning game like we did during the regular season, we can throw him 4-5 innings (or heck, even 6 or 7). That way we aren't trotting out Politte for 2, Cotts for 2, Hermie for an inning, etc. Cotts, Politte, and Jenks seem to be getting it done, so do we really need Viz especially if we also have Hermie in the pen? Viz should really only be used in mop up situations, so why not bring the extra bat. Dump Viz and Marte...put on Brandon. Even if you leave Marte or Viz on, you still get McCarthy on the roster.

The way I see it, El Duque is the early "long man" for the 6th and 7th innings (and earlier if necessary), and McCarthy is the late "long man" if the game goes into extra innings.

Jenks, Politte, Cotts, and Hermanson should be able to get us through the 8th and 9th, with one of them likely left over to pitch behind McCarthy if we go long.

That would leave no role for Marte or even Vizcaino. At this point, I think Marte has given Ozzie enough reason to leave him home and not look back. That should be clear enough.

The last roster question is then between Vizcaino and an extra bench player. I was for Ross Gload, but I'll admit he didn't get enough playing time to be that sharp at the plate. Still, he could still pinch run for Konerko late in the game and be a better choice at bat than Blum. It is a close call, and I won't fault Ozzie for his decision.

flo-B-flo
10-09-2005, 03:39 PM
Farmer was pissing me off, too. He went on and on about "a walk not being a bad thing here."

FARMER, YOU ****ING LOSER!!! EL DUQUE WAS PITCHING HIS HEART OUT!!!!

And this ******* is talking about conceding the tying ****ing run.

Jeeezus... what the hell am I going to do when Rooney leaves?
:angry:

:farmer
"You know why the Phillies never won ****? Ballplayers like me." Simular words were being screamed by me. GIVE UP THE TYING RUN? YOU JACKASS!!

tstrike2000
10-11-2005, 11:28 PM
Marte is from the Dominican Republic, not Venezuela. Ozzie has no "personal" interest in playing Marte. He thought he could be a reliable lefty. That's all.

I was confusing him with Freddy Garcia because I don't buy that even Ozzie thinks he can be a reliable lefty. Playoffs are not the time to guess if someone's going to come around when much of the second half has been terrible.