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View Full Version : Manny eyes new agent for possible trade


tstrike2000
10-06-2005, 04:14 PM
Because this is what you want to be concerned about while your team is fighting for it's playoff life.

Link (http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/4966266?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=58)

HotelWhiteSox
10-06-2005, 04:19 PM
I was a little surprised that he got such an ovation in that pinch hit atbat of the trading deadline, it made the fans look real stupid, especially after what had transpired.

1. Manny wants a trade, again (not enough privacy)
2. Boston fans boo him
3. Boston says they won't trade him or no one will take the contract, not gonna happen
4. Manny says he was kidding around, this is 'where he wants to be', and uses 'Manny being Manny' as an excuse
5. Fans eat it up

Flight #24
10-06-2005, 04:33 PM
Win it all......raise payroll to $100M....keep everyone....claim Manny off of waivers (or trade El Duque to the pitching-starved BloSox for him)....Repeat....

Soxzilla
10-06-2005, 04:33 PM
I was a little surprised that he got such an ovation in that pinch hit atbat of the trading deadline, it made the fans look real stupid, especially after what had transpired.

1. Manny wants a trade, again (not enough privacy)
2. Boston fans boo him
3. Boston says they won't trade him or no one will take the contract, not gonna happen
4. Manny says he was kidding around, this is 'where he wants to be', and uses 'Manny being Manny' as an excuse
5. Fans eat it up
6. Rest of the world barfs.

Fixed it for you.

Fenway
10-06-2005, 04:38 PM
He can join Pedro and Mr. Met under the mango tree
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/tony.eva/images/10%20-%20Mango%20tree%20at%20Wasna.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/players/04/05/mascots0411/t1_mascot.jpg

Tekijawa
10-06-2005, 04:52 PM
Unless Manny was locked in a cage outside of the clubhouse and only let out to hit the ball and then put back in the cage Isolated from the rest of the team... I don't want him here.

longshot7
10-06-2005, 05:06 PM
No, I definitely don't want him on the Sox...... but I wouldn't mind him in LA.

Ol' No. 2
10-06-2005, 05:25 PM
I'm sure we'll be reading any day now about how it's his lifelong dream to play for the Cubs.:rolleyes:

SoxRulecubsdrool
10-06-2005, 05:36 PM
I'm sure we'll be reading any day now about how it's his lifelong dream to play for the Cubs.:rolleyes:

Isn't that everybody's dream?

Optipessimism
10-06-2005, 05:41 PM
I'm sure we'll be reading any day now about how it's his lifelong dream to play for the Cubs.:rolleyes:

Don't forget about the other two soon-to-be Flubs Johnny Damon and Rafael Furcal.

Jjav829
10-06-2005, 05:42 PM
No, I definitely don't want him on the Sox...... but I wouldn't mind him in LA.

Which L.A. team? The Angels? Vlad and Manny batting back-to-back... :thud:

Unregistered
10-06-2005, 05:59 PM
Something tells me Red Sox fans wouldn't be so forgiving if Manny Ramirez wasn't hitting 50 home runs and 150 RBI a year. You tend to forgive and forget rather quickly when someone is doing that for your team...

I want Mags back
10-06-2005, 06:29 PM
I love to see him on the cubs, or any other NL team

Jjav829
10-06-2005, 06:34 PM
I love to see him on the cubs, or any other NL team

I would love to see him on the Sox. I don't know why people act like other teams getting Manny would hurt those teams.

ma-gaga
10-06-2005, 06:46 PM
I would love to see him on the Sox. I don't know why people act like other teams getting Manny would hurt those teams.

I would love to see the Twins trade Torii Hunter to the Red Sox for Manny.

Seriously.

schmitty9800
10-06-2005, 06:46 PM
I would love to see him on the Sox. I don't know why people act like other teams getting Manny would hurt those teams.

I could not watch him in left for 130 games. I would probably go nuts.

I'd love him as a DH, but not in the field.

Hokiesox
10-06-2005, 06:59 PM
His defense would fit nicely on a team built with defense in mind.

Jjav829
10-06-2005, 07:01 PM
His defense would fit nicely on a team built with defense in mind.

Yes, because Designated Hitters play so much defense.

FarWestChicago
10-06-2005, 07:05 PM
I would love to see him on the Sox. I don't know why people act like other teams getting Manny would hurt those teams.You got me. Manny is hitting machine.

fquaye149
10-06-2005, 07:14 PM
I would love to see him on the Sox. I don't know why people act like other teams getting Manny would hurt those teams.

It's crazy. Manny is one of the best, if not THE best hitter in baseball right now.

IMO he's better than Ortiz - this was an off year for him BA-wise and he still put up comparable numbers to Ortiz. Then consider the fact that Ortiz had MANNY for lineup protection while Manny had...who? Trot Nixon?...HMM...

But yeah...I wouldn't want him on my team

JB98
10-06-2005, 07:25 PM
I would love to see him on the Sox. I don't know why people act like other teams getting Manny would hurt those teams.

The guy is a helluva hitter. But he doesn't hustle, and he's a freaking showboat and a headcase. Some people would rather not put up with his crap, regardless of how much he produces.

Dan Mega
10-06-2005, 08:06 PM
Isn't that everybody's dream?

Of course, everyone knows the Cubs are one of the most storied franchises of all time. He would fit right in with the second coming of Willie Mays- Corey Patterson.

Ol' No. 2
10-06-2005, 08:48 PM
I would love to see him on the Sox. I don't know why people act like other teams getting Manny would hurt those teams.Manny is a disaster in LF. Fenway is the one place where his weaknesses are minimized. Anywhere else he'd have to DH. Otherwise, if you subract the runs he costs you from the ones he drives in, I'm not so sure he's going to look so good.

Soxfanspcu11
10-06-2005, 11:58 PM
Manny isin't even the best outfielder on his team. I would MUCH rather have Johnny Damon on my team then that selfish prick manny. Aside from hitting for power numbers what really does Manny bring? Sure he has a bunch of RBI's, it's because players on getting on base for him. Last time I checked, he didn't have 150 solo homeruns so there must be someone out there.

Damon bats for an considerably higher average, spreads out his hits all over the field and can play on a team that relies on power or small ball, not to mention his speed, patience at the play, above average defense and being a team player. I've had it with Manny and his whole "Manny being Manny" schtick. A player that walks around like his **** doesn't stink and acts like he is better than everyone else (including his teamates) is not someone I would like to see in a Sox uniform. $20 mil a year? I don't think so.

SOXintheBURGH
10-07-2005, 12:05 AM
Manny isin't even the best outfielder on his team. I would MUCH rather have Johnny Damon on my team then that selfish prick manny. Aside from hitting for power numbers what really does Manny bring? Sure he has a bunch of RBI's, it's because players on getting on base for him. Last time I checked, he didn't have 150 solo homeruns so there must be someone out there.

Damon bats for an considerably higher average, spreads out his hits all over the field and can play on a team that relies on power or small ball, not to mention his speed, patience at the play, above average defense and being a team player. I've had it with Manny and his whole "Manny being Manny" schtick. A player that walks around like his **** doesn't stink and acts like he is better than everyone else (including his teamates) is not someone I would like to see in a Sox uniform. $20 mil a year? I don't think so.

I always had a personal distaste for the guy, but this year sent it over the top. With the whole "Manny Being Manny" and the whole "Everyone in the country loves Big Papi!" made me really brew a bitter, personal out right LOATHING for the Red Cubs that had already been brewing for two seasons. Nothing would make me happier than to sweep these guys out of the playoffs.

RBI, to me, is the most overrated batting stat; as its a team dependant stat. While I was happy #14 got his 100, I was much more pleased seeing his average rise over the course of the second half.

Pitching and defense wins, guys. You found it out when you had a great rotation with Pedro, a healthy Shell-ing, Foulke, and crew and my hats off to that accomplishment, my boys have yet to do it. But, you are about to get your just due.

LuvSox
10-07-2005, 01:03 AM
I'm sure we'll be reading any day now about how it's his lifelong dream to play for the Cubs.:rolleyes:

Wrigley fans won't care when his big "cotton-mouth-munchie-belly" ass doesn't run out grounders.

WSoxFanForever
10-07-2005, 08:37 AM
Wrigley fans won't care when his big "cotton-mouth-munchie-belly" ass doesn't run out grounders.
In Wrigley Field, they don't realize that you're supposed to play any other way :smile: It would be in the Cub tradition.

fquaye149
10-07-2005, 09:36 AM
Manny isin't even the best outfielder on his team. I would MUCH rather have Johnny Damon on my team then that selfish prick manny. Aside from hitting for power numbers what really does Manny bring? Sure he has a bunch of RBI's, it's because players on getting on base for him. Last time I checked, he didn't have 150 solo homeruns so there must be someone out there.

Damon bats for an considerably higher average, spreads out his hits all over the field and can play on a team that relies on power or small ball, not to mention his speed, patience at the play, above average defense and being a team player. I've had it with Manny and his whole "Manny being Manny" schtick. A player that walks around like his **** doesn't stink and acts like he is better than everyone else (including his teamates) is not someone I would like to see in a Sox uniform. $20 mil a year? I don't think so.

LOL...you'd rather have DAMON than MANNY...:rolleyes:

More power to you.

O B T W... Damon's defense is atrocious

wdelaney72
10-07-2005, 09:45 AM
Yes, Manny is probably the best hitter in baseball, but he'd be a cancer. He's a bad fit for our team which seems to rely heavily on chemistry. Not to mention, his salary would strap us, big time.

He's perfect for the Cubs. Overpaid, bad attitude, poor defense, he'd fill the Sosa void very nicely, except he actually produces.

ma-gaga
10-07-2005, 10:18 AM
He's a bad fit for our team which seems to rely heavily on chemistry.


I see this argument all the time. You would have said the EXACT same thing about AJ a year ago. That one turned out ok, didn't it?

1951Campbell
10-07-2005, 10:41 AM
I see this argument all the time. You would have said the EXACT same thing about AJ a year ago. That one turned out ok, didn't it?

Not to mention Carl...

fquaye149
10-07-2005, 11:20 AM
No offense, but I think there's a lot of sheep being herded around by ESPN and the Boston media in this thread.

Remember how hated Crazy Carl was in Boston. Fenway just kept saying "you're going to hate Carl NOW. Ok well NOW. Well....NOW"

And that was two years after we'd first acquired him from Texas. We don't hate Carl because we're not made to hate Carl by the media (recent trib articles notwithstanding).

Some baseball players are *******-ish and that's the fact (Barry Bonds, etc) But some just have a poor relationship to the media (Frank Thomas, Randy Moss). It's a better story to outline how Randy Moss has off the field drug problems than play up how he did a lot of great charity work in Minnesota.

He's a "clubhouse cancer" if ESPN decides he is. However all the rhetoric in the world couldn't make Minnesota "better by subtraction." Manny Ramirez is the best right handed hitter since Frank and Piazza were in their prime. Pure and simple. He can't play a good left field, probably, but Frank can't play a great first base and Ortiz can't play a great right. So what? If we signed Manny next year there is almost now way we wouldn't be better, assuming it was a pure pickup (no sacrifice in other areas because of price).

There is truth to the idea of chemistry, but when you start making decisions on chemistry because of what ESPN tells you...well you might want to reconsider.

PS: I'm aware of the things Manny's done - "taking a nap in the scoreboard," "skipping the game to go clubbing." Once again, the media can make just about anything look how they want it to. Remember how Ozzie "CALLED OUT Frank" for being part of the "bad attitude of last season" despite never saying anything like that at all? Or remember how he "took cheap shots" at Maggs? Things are rarely as bad as a "good story" makes them look.

Tekijawa
10-07-2005, 11:31 AM
Some baseball players are *******-ish and that's the fact (Barry Bonds, etc) But some just have a poor relationship to the media (Frank Thomas, Randy Moss). It's a better story to outline how Randy Moss has off the field drug problems than play up how he did a lot of great charity work in Minnesota.

Didn't Moss also try and run over a police officer? I don't think Frank's Plights and Randys should be considered equal. Franks is cast in a dark light because of what comes out of his mouth, Randy Moss is just a pothead moron... he may be a charitable Pothead Moron but he deserves a lot more than Frank Does.

mdep524
10-07-2005, 11:39 AM
You guys are overlooking one huge point about acquiring Manny...

:hawk
Where's. He. Gonna. Play?




Sorry, you knew it had to happen. :cool:

voodoochile
10-07-2005, 11:45 AM
It's crazy. Manny is one of the best, if not THE best hitter in baseball right now.

IMO he's better than Ortiz - this was an off year for him BA-wise and he still put up comparable numbers to Ortiz. Then consider the fact that Ortiz had MANNY for lineup protection while Manny had...who? Trot Nixon?...HMM...

But yeah...I wouldn't want him on my team

People have to realize, Manny is one of the few RH batters in MLB history you can favorably compare to Frank Thomas in his prime. Anyone who doesn't want Manny on their team needs to put down the

:bong:

voodoochile
10-07-2005, 11:48 AM
Manny is a disaster in LF. Fenway is the one place where his weaknesses are minimized. Anywhere else he'd have to DH. Otherwise, if you subract the runs he costs you from the ones he drives in, I'm not so sure he's going to look so good.

The man is responsible for putting up 1.5 runs a game roughly. Are you serious that you think he costs the team that much? Even if he costs the team .5 runs per game (which is a totally ridiculous assertion, IMO), the net gain is still worth it and if you put him at DH all those big fat juicy runs drop right to the bottom line (or at least the marginal ones of playing him instead of CC next season - I'm just assuming Frank won't be back).

PatK
10-07-2005, 11:48 AM
LOL@ wanting Damon over Manny.

Have you seen Damon throw? I've seen amputees with better arms.

mdep524
10-07-2005, 11:54 AM
The man is responsible for putting up 1.5 runs a game roughly. Are you serious that you think he costs the team that much? Even if he costs the team .5 runs per game (which is a totally ridiculous assertion, IMO), the net gain is still worth it and if you put him at DH all those big fat juicy runs drop right to the bottom line (or at least the marginal ones of playing him instead of CC next season - I'm just assuming Frank won't be back). All this talk about Manny as a DH... hasn't he said specifically he does NOT want to DH, and insists on playing the outfield?

Flight #24
10-07-2005, 12:15 PM
It's quite simple. If you can afford Manny without making drastic changes elsewhere, you go get him. If he insists on playing the OF, you let him. If he wants to take a couple of games off, you let him.

Why? Because he not only puts up monster numbers, he lets the guy ahead of him do the same. There's a reason why David Ortiz was a low-mid .800s OPS guy in Minnesota for 3-5 years but immediately became a mid-900s OPS guy the moment he arrived in Boston. Whatever Manny's defensive deficiencies are, his offensive contributions dwarf them. Whatever his chemistry issues are (and from what I hear, he's generally a good guy but flakes out on occasion - not a real cancer), his offensive contributions dwarf them.

That's not to take anything away from Ortiz, because he's obviously an excellent hitter. But the presence of Manny makes a difference. I'd bet if you have Konerko batting ahead of Manny, he'd suddenly be batting .300 with 50HR and driving in 140.

And imagine a batting order with Frank batting 3d (DH), Manny 4th (LF), Konerko 5th(1B).......:drool:

fquaye149
10-07-2005, 12:16 PM
Didn't Moss also try and run over a police officer? I don't think Frank's Plights and Randys should be considered equal. Franks is cast in a dark light because of what comes out of his mouth, Randy Moss is just a pothead moron... he may be a charitable Pothead Moron but he deserves a lot more than Frank Does.

Good grief. Just because I said the way the media treats the two are comparable doesn't mean I'm making an equation between the two.

By the way, the run over thing was a nudge with his car. Completely out of line and dangerous...but look at how your perception of the incident has been skewed by the media's portrayal of Moss.

BTW - pothead moron is another media skewing of Moss. Yes he's been caught with drugs. But this is the NFL. You think he's the only one? In fact, we KNOW he's not the only one. Not ot say he doesn't deserve the bad press..but the problem is he's one of the only ones getting the bad press.

Just like Terrell Owens wasn't the only NFL player to hold out. The media is infatuated with him the same way Mariotti is fascinated with Reinsdorf...notice how Shawn Alexander didn't have mics in his face every twenty seconds.

When media people want to make someone look bad they're going to have no trouble doing it.

1951Campbell
10-07-2005, 12:17 PM
We don't hate Carl because we're not made to hate Carl by the media (recent trib articles notwithstanding).


Exactly. The first year Carl was in Boston, everybody loved him. Then his production fell off a little bit, and then the Boston media started saying things like "Carl turns a blind eye to his wife's abuse of his children." No joke. I think Fisk and Yaz are the only two BoSox players that the media never turned on, and hell, I'm only 30 so I could be wrong about that.

voodoochile
10-07-2005, 12:17 PM
And imagine a batting order with Frank batting 3d (DH), Manny 4th (LF), Konerko 5th(1B).......:drool:

Drool is right, except I might switch Manny and Frank...

Paulwny
10-07-2005, 12:20 PM
If Manny leaves so do Ortiz's offensive numbers. Manny is the greatest protection in baseball for anyone hitting in front of him.

Ol' No. 2
10-07-2005, 02:07 PM
The man is responsible for putting up 1.5 runs a game roughly. Are you serious that you think he costs the team that much? Even if he costs the team .5 runs per game (which is a totally ridiculous assertion, IMO), the net gain is still worth it and if you put him at DH all those big fat juicy runs drop right to the bottom line (or at least the marginal ones of playing him instead of CC next season - I'm just assuming Frank won't be back).I didn't say his defensive deficiencies would cost all those runs. But enough to drop him from the super-elite to mere mortal status. Playing in Fenway covers up a lot of his deficiencies. He'd be a lot worse anyplace else. This is not to say he wouldn't be an instant offensive boost. But you could get TWO pretty damn good players for the price of one Manny Ramirez. Personally, I think they'd be better off.

The_Floridian
10-09-2005, 09:46 AM
Here's how this works:

1) If we were to get Manny, we would not have the money to re-sign Konerko. This is not even debatable.

2) In order for us to not have to pay AT LEAST 75 percent of Manny's contract, we would have to give up AT LEAST Brandon McCarthy, and probably Brian Anderson or Bobby Jenks, and probably a lot more. Boston is desperate to get younger and they need pitching badly.

3) The White Sox had the best record in the AL this season and have a serious shot at winning the whole thing. Please explain what Manny has that we are missing.

4) Manny doesn't want to DH.

Now, considering all that, plus the fact that giving up Lee and Ordonez last year allowed us to have Iguchi, Podsednik, El Duque, Pierzynski, Dye and Hermanson this year, doesn't it seem like that money might not be better spent elsewhere?

Is any hitter worth giving up 2/3 of our top prospects, saddling ourselves to two years of huge payments, and losing any shot at all of re-signing Konerko?

SoXPriDe33
10-09-2005, 09:53 AM
Is any hitter worth giving up 2/3 of our top prospects, saddling ourselves to two years of huge payments, and losing any shot at all of re-signing Konerko?

And does anyone want a guy that has so many different personalities in the clubhouse?

Flight #24
10-09-2005, 11:29 AM
Here's how this works:

1) If we were to get Manny, we would not have the money to re-sign Konerko. This is not even debatable.

2) In order for us to not have to pay AT LEAST 75 percent of Manny's contract, we would have to give up AT LEAST Brandon McCarthy, and probably Brian Anderson or Bobby Jenks, and probably a lot more. Boston is desperate to get younger and they need pitching badly.

3) The White Sox had the best record in the AL this season and have a serious shot at winning the whole thing. Please explain what Manny has that we are missing.

4) Manny doesn't want to DH.

Now, considering all that, plus the fact that giving up Lee and Ordonez last year allowed us to have Iguchi, Podsednik, El Duque, Pierzynski, Dye and Hermanson this year, doesn't it seem like that money might not be better spent elsewhere?

Is any hitter worth giving up 2/3 of our top prospects, saddling ourselves to two years of huge payments, and losing any shot at all of re-signing Konerko?

The Red Sox were willing to give him up for free to anyone willing to take on the contract. If the Sox are able to do that, they can likely get him for free again. If they're willing to give up a Rowand/Anderson type of guy, they can likely get some offsetting $$$.

It's great to say "I'd rather have 2 players than Manny", but which 2? Where are you going to upgrade and with who? The FA class is pretty weak, Konerko excepted. And the team is relatively free of gaping holes, unlike last year - which was why they went with depth instead of star power. It's a fallacy to think you can always do that and still improve. From where they're at now, they need to add stars to get better.

If getting Manny requires a significant restructuring, then no. But if the budget allows it (and given the attendance, playoff revenues, and associated revenue bump for future years, it might), it's a no-brainer.

beckett21
10-09-2005, 11:32 AM
And does anyone want a guy that has so many different personalities in the clubhouse?

I take it you have spent time in the clubhouse with him? Pray tell.

The_Floridian
10-09-2005, 11:47 AM
The Red Sox were willing to give him up for free to anyone willing to take on the contract. If the Sox are able to do that, they can likely get him for free again. If they're willing to give up a Rowand/Anderson type of guy, they can likely get some offsetting $$$.

It's great to say "I'd rather have 2 players than Manny", but which 2? Where are you going to upgrade and with who? The FA class is pretty weak, Konerko excepted. And the team is relatively free of gaping holes, unlike last year - which was why they went with depth instead of star power. It's a fallacy to think you can always do that and still improve. From where they're at now, they need to add stars to get better.

If getting Manny requires a significant restructuring, then no. But if the budget allows it (and given the attendance, playoff revenues, and associated revenue bump for future years, it might), it's a no-brainer.

Okay, let's assume you're right, and all we have to give up to offset some salary (emphasize SOME, we're still going to be paying a big chunk) is Brian Anderson. I'm not convinced at all that this would happen, but let's just imagine it could.

1) Where do you put Manny? Remember, he has no interest in playing DH.
2) You still won't have the money to re-sign Konerko.

In answer to your question, "Which two" players rather than Manny...

One would be Paul Konerko. The other would be either another left-hander in the pen (since I expect Marte will be gone), or an upgrade at DH off the free agent market.

In the end, it's PK or Manny. You can't have it both ways. Furthermore, if you lose Paulie, you create a hole at first base. You don't create any holes by not grabbing Manny, and you still have the money to go after a free agent or two.

Ol' No. 2
10-09-2005, 12:39 PM
The Red Sox were willing to give him up for free to anyone willing to take on the contract. If the Sox are able to do that, they can likely get him for free again. If they're willing to give up a Rowand/Anderson type of guy, they can likely get some offsetting $$$.

It's great to say "I'd rather have 2 players than Manny", but which 2? Where are you going to upgrade and with who? The FA class is pretty weak, Konerko excepted. And the team is relatively free of gaping holes, unlike last year - which was why they went with depth instead of star power. It's a fallacy to think you can always do that and still improve. From where they're at now, they need to add stars to get better.

If getting Manny requires a significant restructuring, then no. But if the budget allows it (and given the attendance, playoff revenues, and associated revenue bump for future years, it might), it's a no-brainer.This team has TWO gaping holes that I can see:

1. A solid LH reliever. Not a middling reliever who would be in AAA if he was right-handed, but a real stud LH reliever.
2. Another big bat to DH. If Frank comes back, great, but I don't think you can count on it. Manny fills the bat part, but I don't think he will want to DH and he's a disaster in LF. He'll be even more of a disaster when he's not playing half his games in Fenway.

I just don't see how they can acquire Manny, keep Konerko and fill the bullpen hole.

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 01:31 PM
4) Manny doesn't want to DH.


If Manny has said he wants to come here that implies he'd be willing to DH. He has to know he wouldn't play OF for us. If he won't DH KW won't trade for him. Simple as that.

So what's the problem?

mdep524
10-09-2005, 01:53 PM
If Manny has said he wants to come here that implies he'd be willing to DH. He has to know he wouldn't play OF for us. If he won't DH KW won't trade for him. Simple as that.

So what's the problem? Just because Manny has mentioned he might want to come to the Sox does not imply he would be willing to play DH. I don't see any connection there, and if you do you're thinking WAY harder than Manny Ramirez does.

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 02:55 PM
Just because Manny has mentioned he might want to come to the Sox does not imply he would be willing to play DH. I don't see any connection there, and if you do you're thinking WAY harder than Manny Ramirez does.

If he actually wants to come here it would mean he would be willing to DH. If he only kind of wants to come here, to the tune of not being willing to DH, KW won't make the trade.

Still having a hard time seeing what the problem is. Even if Manny's not thinking it through, it doesn't mean Kenny will put him in left field....

So please please please please tell me what the problem is.

wdelaney72
10-09-2005, 03:47 PM
This team has TWO gaping holes that I can see:

1. A solid LH reliever. Not a middling reliever who would be in AAA if he was right-handed, but a real stud LH reliever.
2. Another big bat to DH. If Frank comes back, great, but I don't think you can count on it. Manny fills the bat part, but I don't think he will want to DH and he's a disaster in LF. He'll be even more of a disaster when he's not playing half his games in Fenway.

I just don't see how they can acquire Manny, keep Konerko and fill the bullpen hole.

Couldn't agree more.

Ol' No. 2
10-09-2005, 04:06 PM
If he actually wants to come here it would mean he would be willing to DH. If he only kind of wants to come here, to the tune of not being willing to DH, KW won't make the trade.

Still having a hard time seeing what the problem is. Even if Manny's not thinking it through, it doesn't mean Kenny will put him in left field....

So please please please please tell me what the problem is.The problem, if you've been listening, is:

1. Manny's $20M is going to completely whack any chance of making any other improvements (unless you're OK with seeing Damaso Marte again next year).

2. Manny SAYING he'd like to come to Chicago should be taken as nothing more than a negotiating ploy. To assume he'd agree to DH when he's NEVER done that before is ridiculous.

He's NOT coming here any more than Randy Johnson was coming here. Or Ken Griffey Jr. Or A. J. Burnett. And in all those cases, that turned out to be a GOOD thing.

The_Floridian
10-09-2005, 04:36 PM
If he actually wants to come here it would mean he would be willing to DH. If he only kind of wants to come here, to the tune of not being willing to DH, KW won't make the trade.

Still having a hard time seeing what the problem is. Even if Manny's not thinking it through, it doesn't mean Kenny will put him in left field....

So please please please please tell me what the problem is.

The problem, if you read the posts on this page, is that if you bring Manny, you will not be able to re-sign Konerko. From now on, I want all people who say we should get Manny to acknowledge this fact. If you are okay with that, say so. If not, give it up. You can't have it both ways.

So, here it is. If you get Manny (man I'm tired of going over this)

1. You will not have the money to re-sign Konerko.
2. You will not have the money for another arm in the pen.
3. You will not have the money for any other improvements you need to make next season, or the season after.

That's the problem. For the love of god, THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

:thud:

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 04:43 PM
The problem, if you read the posts on this page, is that if you bring Manny, you will not be able to re-sign Konerko. From now on, I want all people who say we should get Manny to acknowledge this fact. If you are okay with that, say so. If not, give it up. You can't have it both ways.

So, here it is. If you get Manny (man I'm tired of going over this)

1. You will not have the money to re-sign Konerko.
2. You will not have the money for another arm in the pen.
3. You will not have the money for any other improvements you need to make next season, or the season after.

That's the problem. For the love of god, THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

:thud:

Ay-yi-yi. What are the odds we would make a trade for Manny before we had lost Konerko? If we would trade for Manny it would be to REPLACE a Konerko who had not wanted to resign with us or who we decided to let go.

Ol' No. 2
10-09-2005, 04:45 PM
Ay-yi-yi. What are the odds we would make a trade for Manny before we had lost Konerko? If we would trade for Manny it would be to REPLACE a Konerko who had not wanted to resign with us or who we decided to let go.So in order to not pay PK $12, you trade for Manny at $20M?:?: What kind of sense does that make? Just re-sign PK and put the extra $8M toward another reliever. And you've STILL not addressed the problem that Manny is NOT going to DH.

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 04:48 PM
The problem, if you've been listening, is:

1. Manny's $20M is going to completely whack any chance of making any other improvements (unless you're OK with seeing Damaso Marte again next year).

2. Manny SAYING he'd like to come to Chicago should be taken as nothing more than a negotiating ploy. To assume he'd agree to DH when he's NEVER done that before is ridiculous.

He's NOT coming here any more than Randy Johnson was coming here. Or Ken Griffey Jr. Or A. J. Burnett. And in all those cases, that turned out to be a GOOD thing.

The difference is: KW will not make a trade for Manny to play OF for us. Do you think he will? I really doubt it. So for people to assume that if Manny came here he'd play outfield is ridiculous. That's what I take issue with. It's the same deal with how NY traded for A-Rod. They wouldn't have traded for him if they had not been certain he was willing to play 3B. Am I making myself clear? I don't ****ing know whether Manny wants to play DH or not or whether him wanting to be on the White Sox indicates he is willing to play DH. All I know is we have a GM who recognizes the importance of defense and will not give us Manny Ramirez in LF next year.

Another difference to consider is this: AJ Burnett has nowhere near the track record Manny does. Actually he has no track record at all. Griffey at one point had the stats and consistency Manny has but his recent bout with injuries made him a bad decision. RJ is very very old and had to go from the NL to AL. Those potential moves are nowhere near the sure deal that Manny would be. If Manny did not produce next year no matter where he was people would be flat out shocked. No one was shocked when Burnett tanked, they were surprised he was good in the first half. No one was surpriseed when Griffey got hurt. No one was all that surprised RJ couldn't pitch in NY.

We'll see what happens...talk is cheap. But even if getting Manny means we can't sign an LH reliever, I'll take .300/40/100+ in our lineup at the expense of one reliever.

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 04:50 PM
So in order to not pay PK $12, you trade for Manny at $20M?:?: What kind of sense does that make? Just re-sign PK and put the extra $8M toward another reliever. And you've STILL not addressed the problem that Manny is NOT going to DH.

What we have here. Is a failure. To commnicate.

Read my lips: The only way Manny will be here is if Konerko elects to go elsewhere. If Konerko leaves, we will need to replace his bat. Then is the time to get Manny.

The decision to get Manny or not will not be made until AFTER Konerko makes up his mind whether to sign with us or not. I can't see it going any other way.

And if Manny won't play DH, FINE. Then he won't be playing here. Jeez almighty.

Ol' No. 2
10-09-2005, 04:51 PM
The difference is: KW will not make a trade for Manny to play OF for us. Do you think he will? I really doubt it. So for people to assume that if Manny came here he'd play outfield is ridiculous. That's what I take issue with. It's the same deal with how NY traded for A-Rod. They wouldn't have traded for him if they had not been certain he was willing to play 3B. Am I making myself clear? I don't ****ing know whether Manny wants to play DH or not or whether him wanting to be on the White Sox indicates he is willing to play DH. All I know is we have a GM who recognizes the importance of defense and will not give us Manny Ramirez in LF next year.

Another difference to consider is this: AJ Burnett has nowhere near the track record Manny does. Actually he has no track record at all. Griffey at one point had the stats and consistency Manny has but his recent bout with injuries made him a bad decision. RJ is very very old and had to go from the NL to AL. Those potential moves are nowhere near the sure deal that Manny would be. If Manny did not produce next year no matter where he was people would be flat out shocked. No one was shocked when Burnett tanked, they were surprised he was good in the first half. No one was surpriseed when Griffey got hurt. No one was all that surprised RJ couldn't pitch in NY.

We'll see what happens...talk is cheap. But even if getting Manny means we can't sign an LH reliever, I'll take .300/40/100+ in our lineup at the expense of one reliever.That makes one of you.

Ol' No. 2
10-09-2005, 04:54 PM
What we have here. Is a failure. To commnicate.

Read my lips: The only way Manny will be here is if Konerko elects to go elsewhere. If Konerko leaves, we will need to replace his bat. Then is the time to get Manny.

The decision to get Manny or not will not be made until AFTER Konerko makes up his mind whether to sign with us or not. I can't see it going any other way.

And if Manny won't play DH, FINE. Then he won't be playing here. Jeez almighty.And if he were to agree to play 1B, and if he COULD play 1B, they could put him there.

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 04:55 PM
That makes one of you.

Hmm. I'd be shocked if I'm alone that when we have 5 QUALITY relievers in our pen and a few in our farm system that I wouldn't choose to upgrade on power instead of relief pitching, especially considering we could be losing our biggest bat to free agency.

Pitching is a current strength of this club. Offensive production is a weakness. Especially if we lose Paulie we won't have a legitimate slugging threat next year and I think it's much more important to address that than the fact that Ozzie is infatuated with the righty-lefty matchup out of the pen.

WE WILL HAVE THIS STAFF NEXT YEAR. Period:

Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, El Duque, Contreras, McCarthy, Politte, Cotts, Hermanson, Jenks, Vizcaino. Not to mention pitchers like Bajenaru who could come up.

And you're telling me that we desperately NEED a reliever for next year so much so that you would forgo picking up the foremost available power hitter in baseball?

Fair enough. But I find it hard to believe I'm alone on this.

Daver
10-09-2005, 04:56 PM
This team has TWO gaping holes that I can see:

1. A solid LH reliever. Not a middling reliever who would be in AAA if he was right-handed, but a real stud LH reliever.
2. Another big bat to DH. If Frank comes back, great, but I don't think you can count on it. Manny fills the bat part, but I don't think he will want to DH and he's a disaster in LF. He'll be even more of a disaster when he's not playing half his games in Fenway.

I just don't see how they can acquire Manny, keep Konerko and fill the bullpen hole.

Neal Cotts is a pretty good lefty reliever, and gets better with time, Ozzie just doesn't use him.

As for the Manny argument, I would prefer he not play in the AL.

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 04:56 PM
And if he were to agree to play 1B, and if he COULD play 1B, they could put him there.

I didn't say anything about first base. I don't want to see Manny anywhere but DH.

He would replace Paul's BAT not his defensive position.

The_Floridian
10-09-2005, 05:18 PM
I didn't say anything about first base. I don't want to see Manny anywhere but DH.

He would replace Paul's BAT not his defensive position.

Must...not...have aneurism......

Can't argue against total lack of logic......His will is too strong....AAAGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I GIVE IN! SIGN MANNY AND LET PAULIE GO! AND FIND ANOTHER FIRST BASEMAN IN---IN---SOMEWHERE!!!!

WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY! DON'T SIGN PAULIE AT 12 MIL! SIGN MANNY AT 20! YES! IT WILL WORK! NEVERMIND THE GAPING HOLE AT FIRST!

WE MUST HAVE MANNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MANNNNNNYYYYY!!!!!!!! MY KINGDOM FOR MANNY!!!!!!!!!!!

AH AH AHAHA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!

(do I really need to use teal here?)

FarWestChicago
10-09-2005, 05:22 PM
Must...not...have aneurism......

Can't argue against total lack of logic......His will is too strong....AAAGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I GIVE IN! SIGN MANNY AND LET PAULIE GO! AND FIND ANOTHER FIRST BASEMAN IN---IN---SOMEWHERE!!!!

WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY! DON'T SIGN PAULIE AT 12 MIL! SIGN MANNY AT 20! YES! IT WILL WORK! NEVERMIND THE GAPING HOLE AT FIRST!

WE MUST HAVE MANNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MANNNNNNYYYYY!!!!!!!! MY KINGDOM FOR MANNY!!!!!!!!!!!

AH AH AHAHA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!

(do I really need to use teal here?)Wow, I recommend decaf and glasses. fquaye clearly said to sign Manny if/after Wheels walks. Where are you getting this scenario you're freaking out about? :?:

Jjav829
10-09-2005, 05:26 PM
Must...not...have aneurism......

Can't argue against total lack of logic......His will is too strong....AAAGHHHHHHH!!!!!!

I GIVE IN! SIGN MANNY AND LET PAULIE GO! AND FIND ANOTHER FIRST BASEMAN IN---IN---SOMEWHERE!!!!

WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY! DON'T SIGN PAULIE AT 12 MIL! SIGN MANNY AT 20! YES! IT WILL WORK! NEVERMIND THE GAPING HOLE AT FIRST!

WE MUST HAVE MANNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MANNNNNNYYYYY!!!!!!!! MY KINGDOM FOR MANNY!!!!!!!!!!!

AH AH AHAHA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!

(do I really need to use teal here?)

I didn't read this whole argument, but let me ask you this. Who would you rather have for next year: Dye (1B), Anderson (RF), Rowand (CF), Manny (DH), or Konerko (1B), Dye (RF), Rowand (CF), Everett (DH)? I know my answer and it starts with Manny.

fquaye149
10-09-2005, 05:41 PM
MY KINGDOM FOR MANNY!!!!!!!!!!!



If Richard III had had Manny Ramirez, Henry VIII wouldn't have been a gleam in his mother's eye.

Flight #24
10-09-2005, 06:10 PM
I didn't read this whole argument, but let me ask you this. Who would you rather have for next year: Dye (1B), Anderson (RF), Rowand (CF), Manny (DH), or Konerko (1B), Dye (RF), Rowand (CF), Everett (DH)? I know my answer and it starts with Manny.

Heck - I think I might even prefer Manny and Gload to Konerko and Everett. And that's no knock on Paulie - Manny's just that good of a hitter.

And his defense, while poor, is not going to cost you anywhere near as many games as his bat will win you.

Flight #24
10-09-2005, 06:19 PM
1. You will not have the money to re-sign Konerko.
2. You will not have the money for another arm in the pen.
3. You will not have the money for any other improvements you need to make next season, or the season after.



1. That could very well be an erroneous assumption. If you believe revenue increases are directed to payroll, then the Sox will likely have somewhere between $10 and $20mil increase for next year. About $15 of that will go to resigning Garland, AJ, and raises to guys under contract. Savings from Frank, Shingo, Timo, Damaso, and Carl will be approx $14mil, which gives you a total of 14-19mil in available $$$. That's Manny right there. If you can cut 2-3 mil somewhere else, that gets Paulie a nice raise from $9mil to $11-12mil. That's replacing Rowand with Anderson. Or trading El Duque. Or a payroll raise of $23mil instead of $20.

2. The White Sox currently have 3 stud relievers (Jenks, Cotts, Politte), 1 pretty good one (Hermanson), and 1 mediocre one (Vizcaino). They also have some good arms in the minors and an "extra" starter who'll be in the 'pen should they keep Duque around. The bullpen is fine as is, a stud hitter benefits them a ton more than an additional LH reliever.

3. The biggest improvement they can make is a stud bat. Defensively, they're fine. Starting and relief pitching is fine. Offense has been their weakest link all year.

EDIT: FWIW, the BoSox were willing to give Manny up for anyone wililng to take the contract. Then they were willing to trade him with $15M in cash for 1 top prospect and a decent player with a bad but not horrible contract (Lastings Milledge+Mike Cameron, who makes $8mil in 2006). From that I gather that if you send them Brian Anderson and ask for say $9mil in cash, they may well jump on it as it saves them $14mil and still gets them a pretty good OF prospect.