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View Full Version : Anyone look at Todd Helton lately?


Randar68
09-28-2005, 12:41 AM
The guy has been on fire since the All-Star break, posting 2 months of .400+ average and 3 straight months of 1.100+ OPS! Unreal...

Good thing we had fools calling him washed-up, overrated, yadda yadda yadda on here in June and July...

I still think we should try to pry him out of Colorado in the offseason if Colorado is willing to make the financials work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5870;_ylt=AnPUp8uPGtjUYO5xvwIfqusY0bYF

TheOldRoman
09-28-2005, 01:18 AM
I agree, Helton is a beast. I have always been a big fan of his.
I would love to have him. However, his contract is just too insane to even bargain it down. He gets ungodly amounts of money, and he is signed for way way too long. I dont have the numbers, but I believe he is signed for 6 more years after 05. Even if the Rockies pick up half of his contract, we would still be paying him I believe $10.5mil in his last year, when he would be 38 or 39. It's not likely that he will still be producing enough to warrant that money in 2011.

Konerko has played himself into a huge bidding war between the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets. They all need a slugging first baseman, and he is the only halfway decent 1B on the free agent market this year. After Konerko earn his championship ring and bolts for more money, the Sox will need to look at all options.
The stooges at ESPN said last week that the Marlins will be looking to move Carlos Delgado in the offseason. He is quietly having another great year (.302,33,114), and he is everything the Sox need. He is the left handed slugger we have needed since probably 1997. He is a career .284 hitter, much more consistant than Konerko. He would help us greatly against righty pitchers (especially mediocre ones), and would still do good against lefties (only .234 this year, but .269 over the last 3 years). Kenny has been interested in him in the past, and if he can be had, you have to bet Kenny will go all out to get him. He doesn't put up nearly the numbers Helton does, but he is only under contract for 3 more years, and he makes much less.
We are getting WAY ahead of ourselves.

mdep524
09-28-2005, 01:42 AM
The guy has been on fire since the All-Star break, posting 2 months of .400+ average and 3 straight months of 1.100+ OPS! Unreal...

Good thing we had fools calling him washed-up, overrated, yadda yadda yadda on here in June and July...

I still think we should try to pry him out of Colorado in the offseason if Colorado is willing to make the financials work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5870;_ylt=AnPUp8uPGtjUYO5xvwIfqusY0bYF Seriously. Anyone who though he was washed up doesn't really understand baseball. The guy is just a great, great hitter, and will continue to be for years to come. I was really hoping the Sox could acquire him when he was "slumping" earlier this season, knowing he would come out of it very soon and the Sox might just get a deal.

I still think he should be a number one priority in the offseason, and the length of the contract really doesn't scare me. Good hitters like Helton, Tony Gwynn, etc. don't just fall off the end of the planet. He'll be productive for several more years, especially if he's with a contender. Now, the amount of money he earns annually is ridiculous, and it would be very difficult to get that down to something justifiable. But, if the Rockies are desperate, you never know...

TheOldRoman
09-28-2005, 01:45 AM
Now, the amount of money he earns annually is ridiculous, and it would be very difficult to get that down to something justifiable. But, if the Rockies are desperate, you never know...
I dont know how desperate the Rockies are, but Helton has said that he wants to stay in Colorado and build a winner there. Good luck with that.

Mr. White Sox
09-28-2005, 01:47 AM
Yessir Mr. Roman; I too have been advocating for Delgado, as we really need a lefty power bat in the lineup. I think Delgado is ideal (despite making $11million next year, KW could work something out) and Adam Dunn is at least, powerwise, similar to or an upgrade to PK.

PK makes an average of around $10-12 per year in a Boston Red Sox uniform next year.

DaleJRFan
09-28-2005, 09:03 AM
...shoulda seen this coming. Helton or Delgado is fine by me. I'm sure they can hit with two outs or with men on base.


:reinsy

"Hey Randar. I saw you at Core of the Core day. You look well dressed and well groomed. Maybe you could pony up some of Helton's contract to bring him here? God knows I can't afford him."

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 09:32 AM
Looking ahead beyond the 2005 Chicago White Sox World Series Championship, it's clear the Sox need a LHB who can hit for average and power in the #3 hole who can play outfield or first base (I still think Frank's coming back to DH next year). Helton and Delgado certainly fit that description.

However, Helton has 10-5 rights to veto a trade, right? Otherwise I think Colorado would be willing to eat part of his salary to rid themselves of the rest of the contract. How much depends on what they get back. Colorado did this with Mike Hampton, so there is precedent for such a deal. I don't know what they would want in return, but they certainly need arms.

Delgado, as others have mentioned, has as shorter deal for less total money and doesn't have 10-5 rights to veto a deal. The Marlins will want to shed his contract and also therefore might be willing to unload him for a decent package. They are known to covet Marte, who might do better in the inferior NL and in a massive pitchers' park. Perhaps he could be the centerpiece of a package to land Delgado.

Also, the Sox have a surplus of center fielders, so either Rowand or Anderson could be used to augment the package that could land Helton or Delgado. This lineup gives Ozzie LHBs in the 1, 3 and 5 holes, a nightmare for opposing managers:

Pods-Iguchi-Helton/Delgado-Frank-AJ-Dye-Rowand/Anderson-Crede-Uribe

Randar68
09-28-2005, 10:50 AM
However, Helton has 10-5 rights to veto a trade, right?

Helton only has 8 years of service-time after this season.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 10:54 AM
Pods-Iguchi-Helton/Delgado-Frank-AJ-Dye-Rowand/Anderson-Crede-Uribe

My only problem with this is this: Delgado might as well be a DH at this point. Even with either Helton or Delgado, we're still a bat short IMO. We know we cannot count on Frank to stay healthy, even DH'ing. IMO, they need to get 2 legit bats and you can still resign Frank and DH him with one of the 2 bats being a DH should Frank go down...

Hey, while I'm dreaming...
Trade for both Delgado and Helton... Delgado DH's and Helton at 1st...LOL...

Randar68
09-28-2005, 10:55 AM
Yessir Mr. Roman; I too have been advocating for Delgado, as we really need a lefty power bat in the lineup. I think Delgado is ideal (despite making $11million next year, KW could work something out) and Adam Dunn is at least, powerwise, similar to or an upgrade to PK.

PK makes an average of around $10-12 per year in a Boston Red Sox uniform next year.

Jim Thome on his way out in Philly with Howard taking his place...

Delgado and Thome on the blocks this offseason?

Hangar18
09-28-2005, 11:02 AM
Konerko has played himself into a huge bidding war between the Yankees, Red Sox, and Mets. They all need a slugging first baseman, and he is the only halfway decent 1B on the free agent market this year. After Konerko earn his championship ring and bolts for more money, the Sox will need to look at all options.


OK, if we get Delgado..........but then let Konerko go, were right back in the same boat as this year. Not enough OFFENSE. Since Konerko is the only decent hitting 1b avail right now, We need to just pony up and keep him.
Getting rid of a #3 type hitter in LEE and not replacing him with anyone comparable (No, Dye doesnt count, hes not a #3 hitter, and will tell you so himself) is hurting us bigtime right now. Last in the AL in Hitting with RISP? BRUTAL. We pick up Delgado to protect Konerko is a Big step in the right direction

Randar68
09-28-2005, 11:07 AM
OK, if we get Delgado..........but then let Konerko go, were right back in the same boat as this year. Not enough OFFENSE. Since Konerko is the only decent hitting 1b avail right now, We need to just pony up and keep him.
Getting rid of a #3 type hitter in LEE and not replacing him with anyone comparable (No, Dye doesnt count, hes not a #3 hitter, and will tell you so himself) is hurting us bigtime right now. Last in the AL in Hitting with RISP? BRUTAL. We pick up Delgado to protect Konerko is a Big step in the right direction

We need 2 middle-of-the-order sticks... Preferably they would both play positions so they could resign Frank as well, but they just can't depend on Frank being healthy...

Delgado is probably a DH at this point. Thome as well? Probably...

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 12:08 PM
We need 2 middle-of-the-order sticks... Preferably they would both play positions so they could resign Frank as well, but they just can't depend on Frank being healthy...

Delgado is probably a DH at this point. Thome as well? Probably...

How about Brian Giles? Giles could play either left or right and has a high OBP and OPS. He's also a free agent.

Then, the Sox could hedge their bets on Frank's return and pursue Thome, who likely would come the cheapest in trade in terms of contract dollars and players/prospects (compared to Delgado and Helton), since Philly already has their replacement 1B in house and Thome, like Frank, does have a history of injury.

Thome and Frank could platoon at DH, with Dye moving to first base to make room for Giles in right.

Pods - Iguchi - Giles - Frank/Thome - Dye - AJ - Rowand/Anderson - Crede - Uribe

Randar68
09-28-2005, 12:10 PM
How about Brian Giles? Giles could play either left or right and has a high OBP and OPS. He's also a free agent.

The Sox could not get Giles in trade previously because Giles refused to waive his no-trade clause to come here. He wanted to play out west to be closer to his family. I doubt he'll be looking to come back to the midwest unless those are his only offers...

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 12:13 PM
The Sox could not get Giles in trade previously because Giles refused to waive his no-trade clause to come here. He wanted to play out west to be closer to his family. I doubt he'll be looking to come back to the midwest unless those are his only offers...

I remember that. But who are this potential West Coast suitors? Will the Padres pay to keep him? The Dodgers? Angels? Mariners? Diamondbacks? A's? Giants?

In any case, were there specific reports of what the Sox had offered Pittsburgh for Giles?

TheOldRoman
09-28-2005, 12:19 PM
OK, if we get Delgado..........but then let Konerko go, were right back in the same boat as this year. Not enough OFFENSE. Since Konerko is the only decent hitting 1b avail right now, We need to just pony up and keep him.
Getting rid of a #3 type hitter in LEE and not replacing him with anyone comparable (No, Dye doesnt count, hes not a #3 hitter, and will tell you so himself) is hurting us bigtime right now. Last in the AL in Hitting with RISP? BRUTAL. We pick up Delgado to protect Konerko is a Big step in the right direction
Sigh. Well, Lee was not a #3 hitter. Never has been, never would be. Since you like to continue to overlook the stats saying that Dye is having a season equal to Lee's except in RBIs, I will let you do so. It makes you look really bad. You are almost shoota-esque in your unabashed hatred for Dye and you ability to overlook or trivialize his numbers. We replaces
Lee with someone comparable. And before you mention Magglio, once again, his spot is filled by a leadoff hitter.
Delgado went to Florida because they would play him at 1B every day. He doesn't want to DH. I don't have any scouting reports on him, but I know that he is at least average in the field. Konerko will get way too much money from either NY, NY, or Boston. They will ridiculously overpay for Konerko, who is completely worthless when in one of his cold streaks. They see his homers on BBTN, and assume that he is an MVP candidate. He is not. We would still need to find another bat if we got Delgado, but Konerko is not the answer.

Jjav829
09-28-2005, 12:32 PM
I remember that. But who are this potential West Coast suitors? Will the Padres pay to keep him? The Dodgers? Angels? Mariners? Diamondbacks? A's? Giants?

In any case, were there specific reports of what the Sox had offered Pittsburgh for Giles?

Brian supposed wants to play with his brother, Marcus. Whether the Braves are willing to spend the money to make that happen (considering what they are paying Andruw Jones as well as the performances of youngsters like Franceour and Kelly Johnson) remains to be seen. But if the Braves have a little money to spend on another bat this year, I wouldn't be surprised if Giles signs with the Braves.

IMO, the Sox are going to have to look in the trade market to acquire a couple of bats. The list of free agents is very underwhelming. Hideki Matsui tops the list, but I'm sure the Yankees will probably try to re-sign him. Giles, Damon, Burnitz, Jacque Jones and Nomar are the rest of the "big name" free agents. It actually wouldn't surprise me to see Nomar come to the Sox. He's building a house in Winnetka, I believe, and I'm sure he'd like to stay here. I don't think the Cubs will make an attempt to keep Nomar and he's a decent fit here. He could potentially be our DH while spelling Uribe from time to time (and possibly Crede if Nomar is adequate at 3B).

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 12:38 PM
It actually wouldn't surprise me to see Nomar come to the Sox. He's building a house in Winnetka, I believe, and I'm sure he'd like to stay here. I don't think the Cubs will make an attempt to keep Nomar and he's a decent fit here. He could potentially be our DH while spelling Uribe from time to time (and possibly Crede if Nomar is adequate at 3B).

The problem is that Nomar doesn't fix the Sox fundamental, long-standing problem on offense: the lack of a LHB who can hit for power. Sure, the Sox could bat Nomar third, but they would be right back in the same situation they are now.

Jjav829
09-28-2005, 12:40 PM
The problem is that Nomar doesn't fix the Sox fundamental, long-standing problem on offense: the lack of a LHB who can hit for power. Sure, the Sox could bat Nomar third, but they would be right back in the same situation they are now.

True, but if we get a left-handed hitting 1B and/or LF then Nomar at DH doesn't sound too bad.

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 12:41 PM
True, but if we get a left-handed hitting 1B and/or LF then Nomar at DH doesn't sound too bad.

First base, sure. But left field? Where would Pods play?

Jjav829
09-28-2005, 12:44 PM
First base, sure. But left field? Where would Pods play?

Center? That's not really the best option though. Or get a left-handed hitting centerfielder (Griffey!). Either way, one of our light-hitting outfielders is likely to(read: should) go. That either means Pods moving to center and acquiring a leftfielder such as Burnitz or acquiring a left-handed hitting centerfielder like Griffey.

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 12:52 PM
Either way, one of our light-hitting outfielders is likely to(read: should) go. That either means Pods moving to center and acquiring a leftfielder such as Burnitz or acquiring a left-handed hitting centerfielder like Griffey.

So, because Pods is too valuable as the leadoff hitter, and Dye is one of the top hitting RFs in the AL, by default the only "light-hitting" outfielder you could mean is, um, Aaron Rowand? (I know you can't be talking about Anderson or Timo, since they haven't gotten much playing time lately.) I don't disagree; I just find it funny that you seemed to go out of your way to avoid writing "Rowand."

:D:

Randar68
09-28-2005, 12:59 PM
Hideki Matsui tops the list, but I'm sure the Yankees will probably try to re-sign him. Giles, Damon, Burnitz, Jacque Jones and Nomar are the rest of the "big name" free agents.

Furcal anyone? He's certainly near the top of the list this year.

FA's who are pretty good (IMO)...

C Ramon Hernandez
C Ivan Rodriguez (Poss. Team Void Option)
C/1B/DH - Mike Piazza (hmmmmm)
1B Kevin Millar
1B Konerko
2B Grudzielanek
2B Todd Walker
3B Bill Mueller
SS Nomar
SS Furcal
SS Alex Gonzalez (Fla)
LF Matsui (NYY have until Nov 15th to sign him to an extension or waive him per his contract)
LF C. Lee (Team Option)
LF Crazy Carl (Team Option)
CF Jacque Jones
CF Johnny Damon
RF Hidalgo
RF Lawton
RF Encarnacion
RF Giles

RHSP's:
Clemens
Millwood
Burnett
Weaver
Schmidt

LHSP:
Washburn
Kenny Rogers

RHRP
Tom Gordon
Dempster
many others...

LHRP
Embree
Gabe White
Stanton
Mike Myers
Buddy Groom

B.J. Ryan
Ricardo Rincon

Few others...

Closers: THE YEAR OF THE CLOSER:
Hoffman
Dotel
Braden Looper (Team Option)
Billy Wagner
Jose Mesa (Team Option)
Bob Wickman
Eddie Guardado (Mutual Option + Player Option)
Ugeuth Urbina
Matt Mantei

maurice
09-28-2005, 01:00 PM
OK, if we get Delgado..........but then let Konerko go, were right back in the same boat as this year.

Not quite. Delgado for Konerko is a net gain. Also, it shouldn't be hard to find an upgrade for Everett. (The Sox currently have a lot of money tied up in non-producing DHs.) Those two moves alone would improve the offense tremendously.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 01:09 PM
Center? That's not really the best option though. Or get a left-handed hitting centerfielder (Griffey!). Either way, one of our light-hitting outfielders is likely to(read: should) go. That either means Pods moving to center and acquiring a leftfielder such as Burnitz or acquiring a left-handed hitting centerfielder like Griffey.

Well, number 1, if Pods played Rowand's defense, I'd have no problem, but Pods makes Carlos Lee look instinctual out there... my buddy's dad described Pods as "running like he's got a dollar bill pinched between his cheeks..." I couldn't disagree, he *****-foots around it more than any LF'er I've watched in a long time, and imagining him in CF scares the bejeezus out of me...

This is a problem I have tried to explain previously...

If your leadoff hitter isn't in one of the traditional light-hitting positions (SS, 2B, or CF), you're handicapping yourself when you try to build the team based on the market... premium power hitters are PRIZED beyond belief at those positions, whereas they are far easier to find at LF, RF, 3B, 1B, etc... We don't have one of those premium players SS, 2B or CF, so we've now left ourself with a HUGE and hard-to-fill hole...

What positions do we really have available to upgrade? Pods is the first real lead-off hitter we've had since Lance Johnson (save a couple months of Kenny Lofton)... he stays... It really comes down to this...

We've got 5 positions to possibly address... 3B, SS, CF, 1B, DH

Now, you could shift things a tad by moving Dye to 1st if it is deemed viable, and then you swap 1B needs for RF needs...

So, at these 5 positions, we have to build our lineup around:

Pods... Iguchi... ??? ... ??? ... Dye ... AJ ... ??? ... ??? ... ???

How do we do it? Those are some pretty critical spots in the order we must find a way to fill... #3, #4, and a #6 or 7 hitter... you can afford to trade offense for defense a little more at the bottom of the order (IMO)... unless you're just going for the whole "balanced order top-to-bottom" thing that hasn't worked so well the last 2 months...

Randar68
09-28-2005, 01:13 PM
Not quite. Delgado for Konerko is a net gain. Also, it shouldn't be hard to find an upgrade for Everett. (The Sox currently have a lot of money tied up in non-producing DHs.) Those two moves alone would improve the offense tremendously.

How about this...

Trade or sign 2 of these 5 guys
Helton, Delgado, Thome, Giles or Piazza

You fill 1B and DH and you still can survive Pods in LF and some defense at SS/3B...

Pods... Gooch... Helton, Giles or Thome... Thome, Delgado or Piazza ... Dye... AJ... Anderson... Uribe... Crede...

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 01:14 PM
I'd be fine with Furcal and Pods at the top of the lineup, in either order. His addition, with Konerko's impending (and near-certain) departure, certainly would accelerate the transformation to an "Ozzie-ball" offensive philosophy. They still would need one LHB (Thome, Giles, Helton, Delgado) for the middle of the order to play either RF or 1B (with Dye playing the other position), but Iguchi could drop down in the lineup into an RBI role. If Frank is not healthy (although I think he will be), the DH could be rotated to "rest" players while keeping them in the lineup.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 01:16 PM
I'd be fine with Furcal and Pods at the top of the lineup, in either order. His addition, with Konerko's impending (and near-certain) departure, certainly would accelerate the transformation to an "Ozzie-ball" offensive philosophy. They still would need one LHB (Thome, Giles, Helton, Delgado) for the middle of the order to play either RF or 1B (with Dye playing the other position), but Iguchi could drop down in the lineup into an RBI role. If Frank is not healthy (although I think he will be), the DH could be rotated to "rest" players while keeping them in the lineup.

I've thought about this quite a bit as well... Iguchi in the 5 or 6 spot would be a big upgrade to that part of the order if you could...

losing Konerko but gaining Furcal plus at least one of your aforementioned players would be a big upgrade IMO...

Anyone know the final attendence figure? 2.2 million?

Flight #24
09-28-2005, 01:27 PM
I've thought about this quite a bit as well... Iguchi in the 5 or 6 spot would be a big upgrade to that part of the order if you could...

losing Konerko but gaining Furcal plus at least one of your aforementioned players would be a big upgrade IMO...

Anyone know the final attendence figure? 2.2 million?

IIRC, 2.37:cower:

Randar68
09-28-2005, 01:38 PM
IIRC, 2.37:cower:

Found it on ESPN:

Sox ranked 17th in home attendence: 81 games - 2,342,834 total - 28,923 avg

mdep524
09-28-2005, 01:41 PM
Most of this thread should be in deep pink, but I really like where Randar's going. Depending on how the Sox do in the playoffs, maybe KW and JR would be encouraged to get a big bat or two in the offseason. Hopefully some money will be available.

Todd Helton
Jim Thome
Carlos Delgado
Ken Griffey Jr.
Brian Giles

These guys are beyond good players, they are super stars. Expensive super stars. The FA market might be thin, but adding in the players available through trade will hopefully lead to a buyers market for 1B/DH this offseason. You've got (potentially) Helton, Thome, Delgado, Griffey, Overbay, Manny Ramirez, Konerko and Giles. Some might end up not being available, but that's a pretty good list to start.

voodoochile
09-28-2005, 01:44 PM
I have no problem with another year of Crede at 3B and Uribe at SS. They are fine hitting at the bottom of the lineup, both offer pop and did make some strides this year offensively. Besides, they are so good defensively.

Iguchi is good at 2B which leaves Dye to either play RF or move to 1B. Pierzynski is settled in at catcher and for the first time in a long time the Sox do not have to go looking for ANY starting pitchers. Even if they somehow manage to bungle the Garland situation and lose him they still have a solid 5 to start the season with Hernandez moving into the 5th slot and McCarthy taking over the 4th slot (again giving the Sox one of the best top 4 in the game and a respectable option at #5).

So the only areas of concern are 1B and CF - if you keep Pods in LF, or LF and 1B if you move Pods to CF.

I am okay with Rowand, but he has proven he is replaceable and if the Sox can somehow swing a trade for Manny (Pods/Rowand and El Duque and prospects anyone?) or Degado they will have a major upgrade in the lineup and fill a need position immediately.

With Anderson and Sweeney waiting in the wings, they will have options too if Pods/Rowand continues to struggle.

Ideally they will resign Konerko to a reasonable contract (4 years/$40M) and manage to trade for one of the two aforementioned players or an equivalent and be fine. Heck, if they get either of those two and manage to keep PK, they will be ALC favorites entering the year and pennant contenders (on paper) again.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 01:52 PM
Overbay

Agree with your post, but I just have never understood the fascination with Lyle Overbay... oh well, I guess...

Flight #24
09-28-2005, 01:57 PM
Adding in a practical/financial view, if you assume a 10mil payroll increase, you have the following:

- approx $10mil in raises to guys under contract
- Loss of Shingo, Timo offset by Anderson/Jenks (net savings of 3mil)
- Likely increases for Garland & AJ from a combined $6mil to say $12mil. ($6mil increase)

Thus before filling the 1B & DH positions, you have $13mil in increases, offset by Frank, Carl, Paulie (total $21mil) and a pay bump of $10. That gives you roughly $18mil to play with.

Griffey counts at $6mil/yr(when factoring in deferrals) and ought to come cheaply in trade if you take the whole contract. That leaves you with $12mil.

That $12mil will get you Konerko, or Delgado (giving up a decent prospect and getting $2mil/yr in return), or if you bump either the payroll or the talent traded away a bit more, Helton.

Or blow the whole deal on Manny and play Anderson every day (Dye->1B).

Then add in the "extra allowance" to keep Frank.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 02:05 PM
Adding in a practical/financial view, if you assume a 10mil payroll increase, you have the following:

- approx $10mil in raises to guys under contract
- Loss of Shingo, Timo offset by Anderson/Jenks (net savings of 3mil)
- Likely increases for Garland & AJ from a combined $6mil to say $12mil. ($6mil increase)

Thus before filling the 1B & DH positions, you have $13mil in increases, offset by Frank, Carl, Paulie (total $21mil) and a pay bump of $10. That gives you roughly $18mil to play with.


Also add int he fact that Kenny claimed JR gave him more money this year than he spent... reportedly had ~5 million extra to play with... We'll see how it all shakes out, obviously...

TheOldRoman
09-28-2005, 02:07 PM
Agree with your post, but I just have never understood the fascination with Lyle Overbay... oh well, I guess...
I am a big fan of Overbay's but Im not sure he would work out that well with the Sox. He is a doubles hitter, which is great, but we have some of the smallest alleys in baseball. If he came to the Sox, he would almost certainly put up 25-30 homers a year, but his numers would suffer. He strikes me as an AJ type batter, a hitter who sacrifices average and swings for the fences when he sees how the ball flies out at the Cell. AJ was a career .300 hitter in the AL before this year, and he is having by far his worst offensive year. It takes a disciplined hitter (and a good hitting coach, which we dont have IMO) to keep a guy like AJ from swinging for the fences.
As for Piazza, looking at his numbers over the last several years shows a huge decline since 2001. This year his numbers are .256,18,61. That is much worse than Carl's numbers. Piazza may have been the greatest offensive force behind the plate ever, but his days are well past him. I dont think he has value to us as a DH.

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 02:11 PM
I've thought about this quite a bit as well... Iguchi in the 5 or 6 spot would be a big upgrade to that part of the order if you could...

losing Konerko but gaining Furcal plus at least one of your aforementioned players would be a big upgrade IMO...

Pods and Furcal running wild on the bases would cause opposing pitchers to mess their pants and throw more mistake pitches and/or fastballs. Their speed also would increase the number of "total bases generated" to offset the smaller number of doubles and triples caused by the Cell's small gaps.

Uribe would be a great utility infielder and a good guy to pinch hit when all the Sox need is an RBI sac fly.

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 02:23 PM
He strikes me as an AJ type batter, a hitter who sacrifices average and swings for the fences when he sees how the ball flies out at the Cell. AJ was a career .300 hitter in the AL before this year, and he is having by far his worst offensive year. It takes a disciplined hitter (and a good hitting coach, which we dont have IMO) to keep a guy like AJ from swinging for the fences.

I've also had some theories about AJ's declining batting average as well. He's a "contact" hitter; he rarely walks and doesn't strike out that much (although he's already set his own single-season strikeout record with 68), even though he's willing to swing at anything in or near the strike zone.

To me this indicates two things:

First, the higher K totals would seem to indicate he is swinging for the fences more now than he did in previous years. His personal single-season HR record also supports this theory.

Second, his average seems to have benefitted from playing on the turf at the Metrodome when he was with the Twins. His ground balls were faster on the turf and therefore were more likely to get through for base hits. As a Twin playing at the Metrodome, he hit .295 in 2003 and .308 in 2002.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 02:38 PM
I am a big fan of Overbay's but Im not sure he would work out that well with the Sox. He is a doubles hitter, which is great, but we have some of the smallest alleys in baseball. If he came to the Sox, he would almost certainly put up 25-30 homers a year, but his numers would suffer. He strikes me as an AJ type batter, a hitter who sacrifices average and swings for the fences when he sees how the ball flies out at the Cell. AJ was a career .300 hitter in the AL before this year, and he is having by far his worst offensive year. It takes a disciplined hitter (and a good hitting coach, which we dont have IMO) to keep a guy like AJ from swinging for the fences.
As for Piazza, looking at his numbers over the last several years shows a huge decline since 2001. This year his numbers are .256,18,61. That is much worse than Carl's numbers. Piazza may have been the greatest offensive force behind the plate ever, but his days are well past him. I dont think he has value to us as a DH.

To me, Overbay is Rowand with better plate discipline... If the Sox lose Pauly, they will have to find definitely and legitimate power options in the #3 and #4 holes... Overbay ain't it...

It again comes back to how you balance your lineup... Your LF'er is your leadoff man, and you don't have power coming from any of SS, 2B, or CF to offset that. You can't also put a #6-type hitter in at 1B too, can you? Not unless you have Chavez at 3rd and Manny in RF (just an example offensively)...

Flight #24
09-28-2005, 02:49 PM
It again comes back to how you balance your lineup... Your LF'er is your leadoff man, and you don't have power coming from any of SS, 2B, or CF to offset that. You can't also put a #6-type hitter in at 1B too, can you? Not unless you have Chavez at 3rd and Manny in RF (just an example offensively)...

Make it so!
:gulp:

Seriously, I'd like to think that management would see a couple of things and go "all-out" to get this team 1-2 offensive cornerstones:
- dominant pitching locked in for another 1-2 years
- significant increase in team exposure/buzz/interest locally
- likely rebuilding of the local rivals, offering an opportunity to significantly steal market share

If there are good deals to be made, KW will make them. And I'm cautiously optimistic that ownership will give him the necessary resources to do it.

Mohoney
09-28-2005, 02:56 PM
First base, sure. But left field? Where would Pods play?

Either DH the bat you sign or DH Pods.

mdep524
09-28-2005, 03:01 PM
Agree with your post, but I just have never understood the fascination with Lyle Overbay... oh well, I guess... Oh, I'm not aboard the Lyle Overbay bandwagon. He's a nice player, but nothing extraordinary. I only mentioned him because he is a 1B that will likely be available this offseason, which may further saturate the market, benefiting teams in the "buy" position like the Sox.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 03:04 PM
Just to get back on topic...

Good lord:

Randar68
09-28-2005, 03:06 PM
Oh, I'm not aboard the Lyle Overbay bandwagon. He's a nice player, but nothing extraordinary. I only mentioned him because he is a 1B that will likely be available this offseason, which may further saturate the market, benefiting teams in the "buy" position like the Sox.

That's a good point. A young guy like Tracey intrigues me more than Overbay... although I admit ignorance in trying to figure out why Arizona would trade a 25-y.o. putting up a .900+ OPS season...

maurice
09-28-2005, 03:20 PM
Thome scares the crap out of me. He hasn't been himself for some time, plus he's 35 and coming off of elbow surgery.

Loss of Shingo, Timo . . . . Frank, Carl, Paulie

Don't forget Ben Davis (he's so easy to forget); possibly Hernandez, Marte, and other potential trade bait; and maybe even Hermanson . . . KW suddenly finds himself with a huge chunk of spare change.

Randar68
09-28-2005, 03:48 PM
Thome scares the crap out of me. He hasn't been himself for some time, plus he's 35 and coming off of elbow surgery.

I don't recall the extent of his injury, but I would expect him to DH if we acquired him... not only that, but he's had season of .958 and .977 OPS coming into this year. And despite the power and K's, he's walked 100+ times in 8 of the last 9 years coming into 2005...

previous 5 years to 2005 had 37, 49, 52, 47 and 42 HR's...

Thome's contract... didn't know he had a complete no-trade clause... hmmm...

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/mlb/players/5/4762.jpgJim Thome: 6-Year worth 85M- will make in 2003- 9.5M + 10M singing bonus, in 2004- 10.5M, in 2005- 11.5M, in 2006- 12.5M (+ 2.5M of the 10M signing bonus), and in 2007 and 2008- 14M and in 2009- Team option worth 13M or 3M buyout- + received 50K for 2004 All-Star- + he has a complete NO-TRADE clause- + the 2009 option can become guaranteed with a certain number of PA Agent: Pat Rooney Service Time: 12.042

Randar68
09-28-2005, 03:50 PM
Delgado's contract is PAINFUL... The Marlins aren't going to get much in the way of prospects for him unless they eat a bunch of money...

Carlos Delgado: signed 4-year deal worth 52M thru the 2008 season on 1/25/05- he will make 4M in 2005, 13.5M in 2006, 14.4M in 2007 and 16M in 2008- + the deal includes a Team Option for 2009 worth 12M or a 4M buyout- + the option can become guaranteed at 16M based on MVP voting finishes and post-season MVP award wins if he accumulates 30 points in the next 4 years based on the following system: 10pts. for winning the NL MVP award and 9 for finishing second and so on under a formula that gives him 1 point for finishing 10th and he would get 20 pts. if he's the WS MVP and 10 if he's the LCS MVP</SPAN>- + his salaries will be paid half during the course of the season and the other half on each November 30th- + he can earn bonuses: 50K for All-Star selection; 500K for WS MVP; 100K for LCS MVP; 25K for Silver Slugger and 25K for Gold Glove; 100K for NL MVP and 50K for finishing 2nd in NL MVP voting (would receive the 50K only if he finishes second to Barry Bonds)- + no money is deferred and the deal does not includes a No-Trade clause- + if he is traded to a state with income taxes and/or a city with local taxes, the team must make up the difference in state/local taxes Agent: David Sloane Service Time: 10.002

mdep524
09-28-2005, 04:00 PM
Thome scares the crap out of me. He hasn't been himself for some time, plus he's 35 and coming off of elbow surgery. Thome scares me too, and would have to come really, really cheap. But he's not far removed from .272/42/105 season in '04, with a spiffy .396 OBP, earning him at least a look as a DH.

Thing is, Paulie could put up very similar numbers, minus the OBP. So there's no use paying big bucks and giving up good prospects to get Thome unless he comes at an insane bargain with Philly eating a gigantic portion of his contract.

Todd Helton's gotta be the number one target though. Acquiring two of Helton/Delgado/Thome, etc. would be a sweet pipe dream though. :smile: :drool:

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 04:19 PM
Delgado's contract is PAINFUL... The Marlins aren't going to get much in the way of prospects for him unless they eat a bunch of money...

Delgado and Lowell for Marte? The Marlins ought to be overjoyed to get rid of all that salary while the Sox would be overjoyed to get more than a warm bucket of spit for Marte. Hmmmm.

Frater Perdurabo
09-28-2005, 04:23 PM
Just to get back on topic...

Good lord:

If Kenny had pulled off Helton Heist in mid-May, with Helton's post-ASB production the Sox already would have 100 wins by now.

:mg::thud:

Jjav829
09-28-2005, 05:07 PM
Well, number 1, if Pods played Rowand's defense, I'd have no problem, but Pods makes Carlos Lee look instinctual out there... my buddy's dad described Pods as "running like he's got a dollar bill pinched between his cheeks..." I couldn't disagree, he *****-foots around it more than any LF'er I've watched in a long time, and imagining him in CF scares the bejeezus out of me...

This is a problem I have tried to explain previously...

If your leadoff hitter isn't in one of the traditional light-hitting positions (SS, 2B, or CF), you're handicapping yourself when you try to build the team based on the market... premium power hitters are PRIZED beyond belief at those positions, whereas they are far easier to find at LF, RF, 3B, 1B, etc... We don't have one of those premium players SS, 2B or CF, so we've now left ourself with a HUGE and hard-to-fill hole...

What positions do we really have available to upgrade? Pods is the first real lead-off hitter we've had since Lance Johnson (save a couple months of Kenny Lofton)... he stays... It really comes down to this...

We've got 5 positions to possibly address... 3B, SS, CF, 1B, DH

Now, you could shift things a tad by moving Dye to 1st if it is deemed viable, and then you swap 1B needs for RF needs...

So, at these 5 positions, we have to build our lineup around:

Pods... Iguchi... ??? ... ??? ... Dye ... AJ ... ??? ... ??? ... ???

How do we do it? Those are some pretty critical spots in the order we must find a way to fill... #3, #4, and a #6 or 7 hitter... you can afford to trade offense for defense a little more at the bottom of the order (IMO)... unless you're just going for the whole "balanced order top-to-bottom" thing that hasn't worked so well the last 2 months...

Completely agree. I had a good reply typed up but then I went to open a new window and my computer went crazy and started opening up new windows of WSI over and over until it hit 50 windows and shut them all down, erasing my reply. :angry:

Anyways, this one will be brief now that I'm pissed that my computer erased everything I typed.

I've always felt that teams with true leadoff hitters at the 2B/SS/CF positions are in a great position. Anytime you can fill that leadoff spot without sacrificing anything at your corner positions, you're in much better shape for building an offense. That said, I do think Pods has to stay since he is the best option we have as a leadoff hitter. I think Pods and Iguchi are the only two that should be guaranteed a job next year. Every other position should be considered for an upgrade. Obviously they won't all be upgraded, but if, for instance, we were to non-tender Pierzynski and sign Ramon Hernandez, I wouldn't mind that at all. We'd lose a rare left-handed bat, but that can be made up for elsewhere.

I can't say for sure what my ideal offseason would be at this point. All resources should be directed at upgrading the offense. I'm fine with keeping Crede and Uribe at the #8 and #9 spots since they both play good defense and have come on a bit as of late. But that would be it. The other positions would have to be upgraded to build the offense. That means replacing Rowand with someone who can provide the offense that we're missing from the LF spot by having Pods there. I would like to see something like Griffey (in CF) Delgado (at 1B), and Nomar (DH, occasionally at SS and 3B if he can handle it - I haven't seen him play enough to know). I think that is workable from a salary perspective. I don't think Nomar is going to get very much guaranteed money. Griffey's deal is loaded with deferred money, so Delgado is the only one making big money next year. That would leave the lineup looking something like...

LF Pods
2B Iguchi
DH Nomar
CF Griffey
1B Delgado
RF Dye
C Pierzynski
3B Crede
SS Uribe

This is without knowing exactly how much money the Sox will have to spend this offseason. Yeah, I know that's a very risky lineup given the injury history of Nomar and Griffey. I'm not saying that I'm locked into wanting this; I'm just throwing it out there as the type of offseason I'd like to see. We could even just keep Konerko and go after a lefty or two for CF/DH.

Flight #24
09-28-2005, 05:40 PM
LF Pods
2B Iguchi
DH Nomar
CF Griffey
1B Delgado
RF Dye
C Pierzynski
3B Crede
SS Uribe



IMO, relying on Griffey to play the field AND stay healthy is like relying on Frank to get and stay healthy. Go get him, sure because IMO his contract isn't all that bad. But he needs to DH.

Most realistic offseason, IMO is to trade for Griffey (take on the whole contract), sign Burnitz, trade Rowand+prospects for Delgado+cash. Upgrade at 3 positions, although there's a hit defensively in CF.

mdep524
09-28-2005, 06:34 PM
IMO, relying on Griffey to play the field AND stay healthy is like relying on Frank to get and stay healthy. Go get him, sure because IMO his contract isn't all that bad. But he needs to DH.

Most realistic offseason, IMO is to trade for Griffey (take on the whole contract), sign Burnitz, trade Rowand+prospects for Delgado+cash. Upgrade at 3 positions, although there's a hit defensively in CF. Burnitz? Jeromy Burnitz? Ugh, I'll pass. Brian Anderson can put up numbers as good as Burnitz's and play faaar superior defense, for less money.

Mickster
09-28-2005, 06:56 PM
The guy has been on fire since the All-Star break, posting 2 months of .400+ average and 3 straight months of 1.100+ OPS! Unreal...

Good thing we had fools calling him washed-up, overrated, yadda yadda yadda on here in June and July...

I still think we should try to pry him out of Colorado in the offseason if Colorado is willing to make the financials work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5870;_ylt=AnPUp8uPGtjUYO5xvwIfqusY0bYF

Look at his home/road splits. SIGNIFICANT dropoff....

BA down from .353 to .288
OBP down from .471 to .414
SLG down from .616 to .446
OPS down from 1.087 to .860
Significant dropoffs in HR and doubles as well

I'm not bashing Helton b/c he's a talented hitter, I just think that he is also a product of his enviornment...

Flight #24
09-29-2005, 12:12 AM
Burnitz? Jeromy Burnitz? Ugh, I'll pass. Brian Anderson can put up numbers as good as Burnitz's and play faaar superior defense, for less money.
You know what - you're right. I hadn't actually looked at this year's #s. He's pretty bad.

TheOldRoman
09-29-2005, 12:29 AM
Look at his home/road splits. SIGNIFICANT dropoff....

BA down from .353 to .288
OBP down from .471 to .414
SLG down from .616 to .446
OPS down from 1.087 to .860
Significant dropoffs in HR and doubles as well

I'm not bashing Helton b/c he's a talented hitter, I just think that he is also a product of his enviornment...
Yes, he hits much better at Coors, but away from Coors he is still a great hitter. His career road average is .297 (.374 at home). He has hit 62% of his career homers at home, but this is from a man who is still averaging 34 HR per 162 games even with this down year. He may not be AS great on the road, but he is still great. Oh, and while the Cell isn't as good of an overall hitters' park, it is probably a better homer park.

Randar68
09-29-2005, 12:37 AM
Yes, he hits much better at Coors, but away from Coors he is still a great hitter. His career road average is .297 (.374 at home). He has hit 62% of his career homers at home, but this is from a man who is still averaging 34 HR per 162 games even with this down year. He may not be AS great on the road, but he is still great. Oh, and while the Cell isn't as good of an overall hitters' park, it is probably a better homer park.

Not only that, but you're flat out nuts if you really consider the reconfigured US Cellular to be that much inferior a hitter's park to Coors...

Mr. White Sox
09-29-2005, 02:09 AM
Jim Thome on his way out in Philly with Howard taking his place...

Delgado and Thome on the blocks this offseason?

Sure, why not? However, I think a young Adam Dunn is a better fit than Jim Thome. Thome is a powerful 1B/DH nearing the end of his career; he's also injury prone. That seems kind of Frank Thomas-like to me. I could also see Sean Casey get a look from KW, although I think he'd be completely settling if he went that route and would need to overcompensate for power on other parts of the field.

Of course, one ideal situation would be to resign PK at $9-10.5/year and trade for Delgado (Marte/Sweeney ((They need a corner outfielder to maybe take Cabrera's/Encarnación's place, as Pierre is a fine fit in CF))) with the Marlins eating 1/4-1/3 of his $11 mil salary, but Dunn/Delgado wouldn't hurt either.

maurice
09-29-2005, 12:38 PM
Not only that, but you're flat out nuts if you really consider the reconfigured US Cellular to be that much inferior a hitter's park to Coors...

Seriously, hasn't anybody ever looked at Konerko's splits?
Home - .292 AVE, 23 HR, .959 OPS
Road - .266 AVE, 16 HR, .835 OPS
In 2004, the gap was even wider. It's not a coincidence that Konerko's HR totals spiked after the new roof was installed. Most other hitters with even decent power also SLG higher at the Cell.

This is an important concept. A player coming from a hitter's park probably will be able to duplicate their performance at the Cell. OTOH, a player coming from a less hitter-friendly park will see his HR totals increase a lot. That's certainly been the case with our most recent free agents.