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View Full Version : The curse of the number 3 hole


mdep524
09-27-2005, 02:11 AM
Man, can ANYBODY hit 3rd in the Sox line up? Since Frank went down we just can't get a consistent number 3 hitter to save our lives.

Everett is in a horrible funk. His inclusion in the line up at all right now is questionable, let alone the 3rd spot.

Pierzynski has been terrible in the 3-spot this year, to the tune of an .087 average in 23 at bats there. :o: In fact, despite a few spikes, AJ hasn't been spectacular with the bat anywhere this season.

Rowand has also not produced all that much lately- he hit .245 in August and is hitting .259 in September, with little power numbers to make up for it. He has, however, hit .625 in 4 games/16 at bats while batting 2nd. Small sample size, but still intriguing considering his production batting second last year (.326 average in 33 games/132 at bats.)

Someone needs to step up and hit third, and I don't support putting who's-hot-right-now flavor of the month candidates there (like Uribe, who's already cooling off again- 1 for his last 19). I don't understand why Ozzie won't even try batting Rowand second and Iguchi third. It opens up the line up so well!

Also, I do find it ironic that as the dust settles on 2005, the numbers of Joe Crede, one of WSI's top whipping boys, are almost identical to AJ Pierzynski, who has gotten almost no flack here for his inconsistent production at the plate.

Crede......... .254 AVG 21 HR 60 RBI .305 OBP
Pierzynski.... .258 AVG 18 HR 56 RBI .309 OBP

Not a heck of a lot different. Considering Crede's hit lower in the order than AJ most of the year, the fact that he has more RBIs is surprising.

Banix12
09-27-2005, 02:47 AM
For Pierzynski not catching a lot of flack this season it is a matter of expectations. Catcher is not a position where you find a lot of great bats when you look around the league. Sure there are your all-stars like Martinez, Varitek, and I. Rod but there are far more Dan Wilsons and Damien Millers than there are guys who bring serious offensive production.

Pierzynski's production is very good, for a catcher. It's still primarily a defensive position though.

Fans still get on Crede's back since he was so hyped as an offensive player coming up and he is prone to very, very long slumps. I don't really have a problem with his numbers because frankly there is a shortage of great third basemen in the league right now and he can really field and he has some pop. I can live with it.

According to the trib the plan is to platoon Pierzynski and Rowand in the 3 hole the rest of the way. I'm not a huge fan of it and I understand what you are saying about Rowand, he did well there last season. Though he did have some decent hitters in the 3 hole acting as protection last season.

I'm not going to complain about it or offer suggestions, I'm just going to accept the reality and move on. Go Sox.

nodiggity59
09-27-2005, 03:23 AM
Cred and Uribe have really played themselves onto the 06 team these last 6 weeks. Looking at the numbers, I wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a Ramon Hernandez type next year considering AJ will probably get a bump in arbitration. To me, keeping Paulie is looking more and more like a must. Even if he'll be overpaid, there's just no way I see us getting a 3 AND a 4 hitter this offseason. Brian Giles has been great this year and I wonder if he could be brought over to hit 3rd. I figure his #, which are already good, would explode moving from PETCO to the Cell. His is a tad on the old side though.

Mohoney
09-27-2005, 05:30 AM
Is anybody else here grasping to the hope that if we can somehow get through the AL playoffs, Frank can try to hit 3rd in World Series games that we host?

This break was not in the same place as his previous injuries, right?

I'm paging Dr. Beckett21. I know it's unfair to ask you to diagnose a patient that you have never seen, but in your opinion, based on the tidbits that have leaked out through the media on Frank's medical condition, is there any possible way that he could swing a bat and run the bases 4 times a game come late October, if we're blessed with enough pitching to get to the World Series?

Dan H
09-27-2005, 07:25 AM
Is anybody else here grasping to the hope that if we can somehow get through the AL playoffs, Frank can try to hit 3rd in World Series games that we host?

This break was not in the same place as his previous injuries, right?

I'm paging Dr. Beckett21. I know it's unfair to ask you to diagnose a patient that you have never seen, but in your opinion, based on the tidbits that have leaked out through the media on Frank's medical condition, is there any possible way that he could swing a bat and run the bases 4 times a game come late October, if we're blessed with enough pitching to get to the World Series?

I think the Sox have to stop depending on Frank Thomas.

Mohoney
09-27-2005, 07:40 AM
I think the Sox have to stop depending on Frank Thomas.

I'm not depending, I'm hoping.

Yorke97
09-27-2005, 07:55 AM
Boy, the guy sure played his heart out last night. Getting hit twice might be just what he needed to pull out of his slide.

Deuce
09-27-2005, 08:02 AM
Boy, the guy sure played his heart out last night. Getting hit twice might be just what he needed to pull out of his slide.

Hey, at least he got on base... I wish AJ and JD had done as much yesterday. Maybe we would have won the game instead of losing to the Tiggers on a walkoff.

Deuce

Mohoney
09-27-2005, 08:03 AM
What's YOUR magic number? The amount of days it takes for the ivy to die, or the amount of money you have contributed this year to getting Ronny Woo Woo tanked in the bleachers while watching major deadline acquisition Matt Lawton sport a .289 OBP?

You are a :dtroll: beyond all doubt, and not even a clever one at that!

harwar
09-27-2005, 08:27 AM
Big Frank is not coming back.The reality of the situation is that we need Carl to start hitting,like right now.Its rather late to be messing around with the lineup now.These guys are just going to have to get it done because there is no one else,only them.

BeviBall!
09-27-2005, 11:42 AM
Rowand hasn't been great this year, but he's looked the most at ease in the 3 hole. He has also accounted for the only sac fly in the past 2 months. If he was hitting 3 yesterday, we win.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2005, 12:07 PM
As crazy as this would have sounded a month ago, what about using Joe Crede in the #3 spot?

Paulwny
09-27-2005, 12:16 PM
As crazy as this would have sounded a month ago, what about using Joe Crede in the #3 spot?

Its a tough call, Crede may now have found a comfort zone at the bottom of the order. If moved, he may return to his old self, again, a tough call.

DaleJRFan
09-27-2005, 12:56 PM
As crazy as this would have sounded a month ago, what about using Joe Crede in the #3 spot?

It's worth a shot. Joe's swinging a HOT stick right now and it one of the better at-bats in the lineup... hell, it can't get much worse. I say, give Joe a shot. Maybe he really takes off with the role...

mdep524
09-27-2005, 01:20 PM
As crazy as this would have sounded a month ago, what about using Joe Crede in the #3 spot? I know he's hot right now, but I don't think Crede would excel in the number 3 spot. There's a reason he's been batting 8th and 9th all season- he's a bottom of the line up guy. He is a better option than Uribe though.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2005, 01:24 PM
Its a tough call, Crede may now have found a comfort zone at the bottom of the order. If moved, he may return to his old self, again, a tough call.That would be what I would worry about, too. But look at his monthly splits:

April: .304
May: .155
June: .275
July: .304
Aug: .103
Sept: .404

His overall BA (.255) is really brought down by two really lousy months. His "old self" has been pretty damn good for all but those two months. His bat is looking quicker to me, and hitting ahead of Pauly he's going to get a lot more fastballs. If anything, he should do better in that spot. Might be worth a shot.

PorkChopExpress
09-27-2005, 01:32 PM
I'm all for the Rowand in the 2 spot, Iguchi in the 3. Tito was a 3-hole hitter in Japan, and a good one, and Rowand was awesome last year in the 2-spot. Plus, I don't see Tito popping out with one out and a guy on third. He at least gets the long-fly sac or a run-scoring ground-out.

TaylorStSox
09-27-2005, 01:38 PM
I'm all for the Rowand in the 2 spot, Iguchi in the 3. Tito was a 3-hole hitter in Japan, and a good one, and Rowand was awesome last year in the 2-spot. Plus, I don't see Tito popping out with one out and a guy on third. He at least gets the long-fly sac or a run-scoring ground-out.


Iguchi's been able to swing away the whole second half. From what I've seen, he isn't a 3 hole hitter. He doesn't have the patience and K's far too much.


I wouldn't be opposed to adding another speed guy that gets on base. At least Harris and Ozuna will run. I'm not saying they should be hit 3rd, but I wouldn't mind seeing Harris at 2nd with Iguchi dh'ing.

Minnie Me
09-27-2005, 01:49 PM
:troll
"Nevermind me. I'm just spanking myself!"

TaylorStSox
09-27-2005, 01:51 PM
Our best hope is Rowand, Rowland, Roward, Rowlend to bat third.


What makes Rowand a good candidate to bat 3rd, his goatee?

maurice
09-27-2005, 02:12 PM
OPS in the 3rd hole
Thomas - .879
Rowand - .750
Everett - .741
Konerko - .264
Pierzynski - .255

mdep524
09-27-2005, 02:13 PM
Iguchi's been able to swing away the whole second half. From what I've seen, he isn't a 3 hole hitter. He doesn't have the patience and K's far too much.


I wouldn't be opposed to adding another speed guy that gets on base. At least Harris and Ozuna will run. I'm not saying they should be hit 3rd, but I wouldn't mind seeing Harris at 2nd with Iguchi dh'ing. Well, who doesn't K too much on this team? Rowand, Everett, Dye, Uribe and Crede are all big K guys. Also, I disagree about Tadahito's plate discipline, I think he has shown excellent patience by batting 2nd all season. He deserves a shot at batting third.

In your scenario of Iguchi DHing and Harris playing 2nd, where would the two guys bat in the line up?

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2005, 02:26 PM
OPS in the 3rd hole
Thomas - .879
Rowand - .750
Everett - .741
Konerko - .264
Pierzynski - .255Sad doesn't begin to describe it. Everett is .551 in September with 5 XBH and 8 RBI in 88 AB. That's just horrid. The good news: almost anyone would be an improvement.

TaylorStSox
09-27-2005, 02:27 PM
Well, who doesn't K too much on this team? Rowand, Everett, Dye, Uribe and Crede are all big K guys. Also, I disagree about Tadahito's plate discipline, I think he has shown excellent patience by batting 2nd all season. He deserves a shot at batting third.

In your scenario of Iguchi DHing and Harris playing 2nd, where would the two guys bat in the line up?

Iguchi - 45BB/111K - plate discipline?
Uribe - 30BB/76K
Crede - 25BB/64K
Rowand - 31BB/115K :redface:
Everett - 41BB/96K

They all suck. Crede's has a tendency to pull the ball on the ground. He'll hit into a ton of double plays.

Iguchi probably is the best choice, but that's sad.

Pods (LF)
Harris (2B)
Iguchi (DH
Konerko (1B)
Dye (RF)
Crede (3B)
AJ (C)
Rowand (CF)
Uribe (SS)

That would be be my line up against the next righty. Thank god I don't run the team. :redneck

gobears1987
09-27-2005, 02:28 PM
Rowand, you're mine!!!!!

mdep524
09-27-2005, 02:36 PM
Iguchi - 45BB/111K - plate discipline?
Uribe - 30BB/76K
Crede - 25BB/64K
Rowand - 31BB/115K :redface:
Everett - 41BB/96K

They all suck. Crede's has a tendency to pull the ball on the ground. He'll hit into a ton of double plays.

Iguchi probably is the best choice, but that's sad.

Pods (LF)
Harris (2B)
Iguchi (DH
Konerko (1B)
Dye (RF)
Crede (3B)
AJ (C)
Rowand (CF)
Uribe (SS)

That would be be my line up against the next righty. Thank god I don't run the team. :redneck Hmmm, I could certainly live with that line up, although good pitching would eat Harris alive.

Iguchi may have a lot of strike outs, but some of that stems from batting second and getting into 0-2 holes to let Pods run early in the season, or from fouling balls off when trying to hit to the right side. If he was allowed to be aggressive and go after pitches in the 3rd spot, things might change.

TaylorStSox
09-27-2005, 02:39 PM
Hmmm, I could certainly live with that line up, although good pitching would eat Harris alive.

Iguchi may have a lot of strike outs, but some of that stems from batting second and getting into 0-2 holes to let Pods run early in the season, or from fouling balls off when trying to hit to the right side. If he was allowed to be aggressive and go after pitches in the 3rd spot, things might change.

Harris would be among our leaders in OBP. based on last years stats.


Iguchi's been far more aggressive in the 2nd half.

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2005, 02:42 PM
Iguchi is in the #2 spot because of his bat control and ability to advance the runner. No one on the team can touch him. I wouldn't move him. Harris would not be a good replacement. IMO, Rowand is the least-bad alternative for the #3 hole.

TaylorStSox
09-27-2005, 02:45 PM
Iguchi is in the #2 spot because of his bat control and ability to advance the runner. No one on the team can touch him. I wouldn't move him. Harris would not be a good replacement. IMO, Rowand is the least-bad alternative for the #3 hole.


I agree with this. I'd definitely try to work Harris into the line up though. He's better suited for the 9th spot. It'd be nice to have somebody turn over the line up, with some speed.

I just can't see Rowand in the 3 hole. He's been our most disappointing player imo. The only advantage is his number of hits, but that's not saying much.

mdep524
09-27-2005, 02:46 PM
Harris would be among our leaders in OBP. based on last years stats.


Iguchi's been far more aggressive in the 2nd half. He's also hit for a higher AVG, OBP and SLG with more HRs and RBIs in less games played in the second half compared to the first. He's batting .296 in September. So the more aggressive approach is paying off in ways that would be best utilized in the 3 spot.

mdep524
09-27-2005, 02:49 PM
Iguchi is in the #2 spot because of his bat control and ability to advance the runner. No one on the team can touch him. I wouldn't move him. Harris would not be a good replacement. IMO, Rowand is the least-bad alternative for the #3 hole. I agree 110& ON2. But the fact is, getting the runner over just isn't leading to many runs right now. The execution hasn't been there. So what good is wasting an out to move a guy over when he's not going to score without a hit anyway?

Ol' No. 2
09-27-2005, 03:01 PM
I agree 110& ON2. But the fact is, getting the runner over just isn't leading to many runs right now. The execution hasn't been there. So what good is wasting an out to move a guy over when he's not going to score without a hit anyway?The top OBP this year:

Konerko: .368
Podsednik: .353
Iguchi: .345
Rowand: .332

These are the guys you want bunched at the top of the order. After PK, Pods still has the highest OBP. Iguchi's job is to get him into scoring position, even if it means sacrificing an out. The problem isn't Podsednik and Iguchi. The problem is the near-automatic out behind them. IMO, Rowand is the least-bad alternative to put 3rd. If you want to work Willie into the lineup, he'd be a good #9 hitter. Remember, after the first inning, he becomes like another leadoff hitter ahead of Pods.

CYGarland20
09-27-2005, 03:04 PM
According to the trib the plan is to platoon PIERZYNSKI and Rowand in the 3 hole the rest of the way.. :o: NO!!!! Leave Rowand in there. He at least is somewhat of a consistent hitter who can get on base, hit it the other way, and has some power and speed. Not to mention he's our best hitter w/ Risp. He's really our best and only option at this point, IMO. If AJ hits there anymore I'm going to pull all of my hair out!! :angry: Go w/ this lineup Ozzie, PLEASE!!...Pods, Iguchi, Rowand, Pk, Dye, Everett/Gload, Crede, AJ, Uribe.

Banix12
09-27-2005, 03:34 PM
:o: NO!!!! Leave Rowand in there. He at least is somewhat of a consistent hitter who can get on base, hit it the other way, and has some power and speed. Not to mention he's our best hitter w/ Risp. He's really our best and only option at this point, IMO. If AJ hits there anymore I'm going to pull all of my hair out!! :angry: Go w/ this lineup Ozzie, PLEASE!!...Pods, Iguchi, Rowand, Pk, Dye, Everett/Gload, Crede, AJ, Uribe.

Well then hope we see a lot of left handers for the next six games.

CYGarland20
09-27-2005, 03:44 PM
Well then hope we see a lot of left handers for the next six games.Were only going to see 1. And that's tonite. :(:

kitekrazy
09-27-2005, 06:29 PM
Its a tough call, Crede may now have found a comfort zone at the bottom of the order. If moved, he may return to his old self, again, a tough call.

Good point. Some guys you move and they can't hit in a certain spot.

jerry myers
09-27-2005, 06:34 PM
we got what we got and its good enough if we go on all cylinders. but i sure do we could of picked up griffey , or someone with a big bat and a golden chance to be in the playoffs.

mdep524
09-28-2005, 02:11 AM
Rowand 0-5 with 5 meak groundouts today. Does AJ get the number 3 spot tomorrow?

...And does Joe 4-4 Borchard get another at bat before the season ends? That 1.000 average looks pretty cool.

Banix12
09-28-2005, 02:24 AM
Rowand 0-5 with 5 meak groundouts today. Does AJ get the number 3 spot tomorrow?

...And does Joe 4-4 Borchard get another at bat before the season ends? That 1.000 average looks pretty cool.

If Ozzie goes by what he said his plan was Pierzynski will be the 3 hitter tomorrow, but who knows if Ozzie changes his mind.

Actually Joe is 4-5, but .800 is still pretty sweet. If the sox clinch the divison before the end of the season I expect to see a game full of backups. with an OF of Borchard, Anderson and Timo. Infield of Blum, Ozuna, Willie, and Gload. Cassanova behind the plate and probably El Duque taking the mound.

Paulwny
09-28-2005, 10:06 AM
Lately, being placed in the 3 hole is equivalent to putting your head on the guillotine. :whiner: