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Jerry_Manuel
12-06-2001, 07:27 AM
From the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/stories/2001-12-05-focus-expenses.htm)

The numbers are such a joke.

Cubs Local Tv, Radio, and Cable revenue: 23,559
Sox Local Tv, Radio, and Cable revenue: 30,092

Yeah ok, how in the world can the Sox be getting more money then the Cubs? Pretty simple this is all bull****.
Just for those who like you know:

Yankees Local Tv, Radio, and Cable revenue: 56,750
Atlanta Local Tv, Radio, abd Cable revenue: 19,988

More BS how in the world can the Sox be getting more money then Atlanta? They have their own freakin network. Selig must be on some drugs if he thinks people are going to believe this.

Paulwny
12-06-2001, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
From the USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/stories/2001-12-05-focus-expenses.htm)


More BS how in the world can the Sox be getting more money then Atlanta? They have their own freakin network. Selig must be on some drugs if he thinks people are going to believe this.

The cable or station owns the team, they determine how much money to pay the team, no negotiations. At the end of the year the baseball team shows a loss of revenue meanwhile the cable company has a huge profit.
Ted Turner has said with a grin on his face, My baseball team loses money but look at the profits of my cable company.
After the formation of King George's cable company the yankmess will lose money but the cable company will triple in value. Let's see how much he pays his own team for broadcast rights.
Bean counters are more important to owners then players.

Jerry_Manuel
12-06-2001, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny
The cable or station owns the team, they determine how much money to pay the team, no negotiations. At the end of the year the baseball team shows a loss of revenue meanwhile the cable company has a huge profit.
Ted Turner has said with a grin on his face, My baseball team loses money but look at the profits of my cable company.
After the formation of King George's cable company the yankmess will lose money but the cable company will triple in value. Let's see how much he pays his own team for broadcast rights.
Bean counters are more important to owners then players.

Well I look like an ass now, thanks for correcting me.

Paulwny
12-06-2001, 08:09 AM
More and more cable companies are trying to buy sports' teams. Cry poverty on the sport's side while reaping in huge profits on the tv side. Another excuse to ask for new stadiums, more tax revenue, etc.
The gov't should look into the big picture not just the teams finances.

duke of dorwood
12-06-2001, 08:52 AM
It's the owners job description to make us all look like asses. Maybe the government will wise up and send in their own auditors. Probably not, but wouldn't that cause some scurrying around?

:maggs

They must be counting the $ made from my commercial

nut_stock
12-06-2001, 10:52 AM
for a minute, lets pretend all those numbers are true.

It states that these teams made a profit: of:

Yankees: $8,230,000
Marineres:$14,793,000 ****
Cubs: $2,894,000 (Im suprised they didn't work it to show a loss)
Royals:$1,474,000 (loving that revenue sharing, received $16 mil)

While these teams had a loss of:

White Sox: $7,625,000 ( $4 million of that was given to other clubs via revenue sharing)
Dodgers: $68,887,000 ***** (pure stupidity)
Arizona: $44,358,000
BlueJays:$42,504,000
Rangers:$ 31,248,000(i guess aRod wasn't such a good idea LOL!!)



Simply put, 1 team can make a profit of 15 million while another loses 69 million. What the hell is this?

Soxboyrob
12-06-2001, 11:01 AM
I still don't know how the Cubs are receiving less Television revenue than the Sox are. As far as I know, neither the Cubs or the Sox own a cable station, so there shouldn't be any creative bookkeeping that allows either team to hide some of their income.

I realize that the Sox are being shown on WGN as often as the Cubs are and the same goes for the number of games being shown on FSNet. All that being equal, the only thing that ought to matter is what the stations pay the clubs for the rights to the telecasts. Are you telling me that the Sox are being paid more for their games than the Cubs? I thought it was the Cubs that supposedly had the worldwide fanbase? What gives here? Anyone, anyone, anyone?

Paulwny
12-06-2001, 11:01 AM
All kinds of figures out there.


Wednesday, December 5, 2001

Blue Jays had biggest operating loss in majors
By RONALD BLUM -- The Associated Press

Baseball had an operating loss of $232 million this year, including a major league-leading $52.9 million by the Toronto Blue Jays, according to a report that will be given to Congress on Thursday.

While the Arizona Diamondbacks were a success on the field, winning the World Series in just their fourth season, they were a bottom-line bust, with an operating loss of $32.2 million, according to the report, obtained Wednesday night by The Associated Press.

That was the third-highest operating loss in baseball, trailing only Toronto and Los Angeles ($45.3 million).

Eleven of the 30 teams had operating profits before revenue sharing, led by the New York Yankees at $40.9 million. Seattle was second at $34.3 million, followed by San Francisco at $19 million and Milwaukee at $14.4 million.

Baseball's operating loss came on record revenue of $3.5 billion. The report showed an additional loss of $112 million in interest costs, which includes borrowing to fund team's payments for new ball parks. An additional $174 million is added in amortization -- essentially depreciation of a portion of teams' asset value -- resulting in an overall loss of $519 million, the report said.

Baseball commissioner Bud Selig is to present the report along with other financial breakdowns when he testifies Thursday before the House Judiciary Committee in Washington.

Legislation to eliminate baseball's 79-year-old antitrust exemption was introduced in the House and Senate following a vote by major-league owners last month to eliminate two teams before next season.

While no teams were selected, the Montreal Expos and Minnesota Twins are the likely candidates, and Minnesota's congressional delegation pushed for the hearing.

Montreal had an operating loss of $38.5 million, which was cut to $10 million after revenue sharing -- money redistributed from baseball's high-revenue teams to low-revenue clubs. Minnesota had an $18.5 million operating loss, which became a $536,000 operating profit after the revenue sharing money was redistributed.

The Yankees paid $26.5 million in revenue sharing, the most of the 30 teams, cutting their operating profit to $14.3 million on revenue of $242 million. They had the highest regular-season gate receipts, $98 million, followed by Boston at $89.7 million.

Montreal was last with just $6.4 million in gate receipts. Florida was 29th at $16.8 million and Minnesota was 28th at $17.6 million.

The Yankees led in local broadcasting money at $56.75 million, followed by the Mets at $46.25 million and Seattle at $37.9 million. Montreal was last at just $536,000, Milwaukee was 29th at $5.9 million, Kansas City 28th at $6.5 million and Minnesota 27th at $7.2 million.

Baseball's operating loss, while high, was not a record. In 1994, when players struck in August and the World Series was cancelled for the first time in 90 years, the sport had an operating loss of $363.7 million, according to records previously obtained by the AP.

In 1995, the first year after the strike, the industry lost $326.3 million on operations, a figure cut to $197 million the following year as business began returning to normal.

Congress, which historically has deferred to baseball owners, is not likely to pass a baseball antitrust bill anytime soon, and President Bush -- the former controlling owner of the Texas Rangers -- hasn't expressed an opinion.

In the meantime, the introduction of the legislation set the stage for another trip to Capitol Hill by Selig, who has clashed with congressmen at several hearings in recent years.

The players' association is often dubious of claims of losses, and union head Donald Fehr is expected to respond to Selig at a news conference Thursday in Irving, Tex., where the players' executive board is meeting. While the figures haven't been audited, baseball's early accounting has usually been within five per cent of the final totals.

"We can argue over the level of detail of the information," Sandy Alderson, baseball's executive vice-president of operations, said after the AP obtained the report. "Is it a fair representation of the economic state of the game? I think the answer to that is clearly yes."

Owners want major concessions from the players' union, as they have had in each negotiation since the 1976 labour contract that created the current system of free agency and salary arbitration.

Since 1976, the average salary has risen 42-fold, from $51,000 to about $2.15 million, while baseball's revenue has grown 19-fold from $182 million.

Selig claims the Twins need a new ball park to survive, but the Minnesota legislature has failed to support public financing.

Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura, who has opposed a publicly funded ball park but has been more supportive in recent weeks, also is scheduled to testify. The other witnesses are Twins president Jerry Bell and Steve Fehr, the brother of the union leader and a player agent.

Since the 1922 U.S. Supreme Court decision creating the antitrust exemption, Congress has altered it just once. In 1998, lawmakers approved a bill that President Clinton signed that made labour relations of major-league players subject to antitrust laws.

But the change meant little because the Supreme Court ruled two years earlier that unionized employees may not file antitrust suits.

Paulwny
12-06-2001, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
I still don't know how the Cubs are receiving less Television revenue than the Sox are. As far as I know, neither the Cubs or the Sox own a cable station, so there shouldn't be any creative bookkeeping that allows either team to hide some of their income.

I realize that the Sox are being shown on WGN as often as the Cubs are and the same goes for the number of games being shown on FSNet. All that being equal, the only thing that ought to matter is what the stations pay the clubs for the rights to the telecasts. Are you telling me that the Sox are being paid more for their games than the Cubs? I thought it was the Cubs that supposedly had the worldwide fanbase? What gives here? Anyone, anyone, anyone?

Does the Trib own WGN ?

Soxboyrob
12-06-2001, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


Does the Trib own WGN ?

To my knowledge, no. That's what I don't understand. I wonder if the Sox are in bed w/ some kind of sweet deal w/ Fox Sports Net from way back when they were the only team shown on the Chicago version of FSN. That's all that I can conjur.

Jerry_Manuel
12-06-2001, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Does the Trib own WGN ?

From the Trib's official site:
Tribune Broadcasting owns and operates 22 major-marketing television stations, including national superstation WGN, and reaches 80 percent of U.S. television households. It is the largest TV group not owned by a network. Broadcasting properties also include four radio stations, Tribune Entertainment and the Chicago Cubs baseball team.

*Unless I am reading that wrong it sounds like they do.

Jerry_Manuel
12-06-2001, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Soxboyrob
To my knowledge, no. That's what I don't understand. I wonder if the Sox are in bed w/ some kind of sweet deal w/ Fox Sports Net from way back when they were the only team shown on the Chicago version of FSN. That's all that I can conjur.

Or it could be that the owners are lying.

Cheryl
12-06-2001, 01:13 PM
It's not just tv rights/profits that are fuzzy. Depending on how it's structured, parking sold at a ball park may show up as profit for a different company. That company may be owned by the same people who own the ballclub, but parking fees won't show up as profit for the ballclub.

For all I know, the gift shop at Comiskey may be renting the space from the ISA and its profits may be completely seperate from those of the White Sox, while in fact Reinsdorf and Co actually own the company that gets the profits from all that stuff we buy there.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-06-2001, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
It's not just tv rights/profits that are fuzzy. Depending on how it's structured, parking sold at a ball park may show up as profit for a different company. That company may be owned by the same people who own the ballclub, but parking fees won't show up as profit for the ballclub.

For all I know, the gift shop at Comiskey may be renting the space from the ISA and its profits may be completely seperate from those of the White Sox, while in fact Reinsdorf and Co actually own the company that gets the profits from all that stuff we buy there.


Or perhaps the parking fees aren't collected by the Chicago White Sox, but are collected by a separate holding company of Satan Enterprises, Inc. The fact that Jerry Reinsdorf owns 100 percent of Satan Enterprises is of no consequence to his reported losses on the Chicago White Sox. It simply serves to make one part of his portfolio look more prosperous than another. This has tremendous consequences to how much income Satan receives, and thus how much tax Satan pays.

:reinsy
"Hey, I'm smart. Nobody gets rich working the fryer at McDonald's."

czalgosz
12-06-2001, 02:50 PM
And how are we supposed to believe that the Twins, despite having the same attendance as the Sox did last year, made half as much on gate receipts? Do the Twins tickets really sell for that much cheaper?

All these numbers are extremely suspect, to say the least. How did the Mets lose $154,000 on the postseason that they weren't even in?

ma-gaga
12-06-2001, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
And how are we supposed to believe that the Twins, despite having the same attendance as the Sox did last year, made half as much on gate receipts? Do the Twins tickets really sell for that much cheaper?

Just to let you know, the Twins tickets sold for:
Upper Level GA for $4
Lower Level GA $10
Upper Reserved: $10
Lower Reserved: $15
Lower Club: $20

Those 'Club' tickets are behind home plate. This info is available from the official website (http://twins.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/min/news/min_news_story.jsp?article_id=min_20010921_tickets _2002prices_news&team_id=min) which also has a cropped picture of Bud Selig sitting next to Jesse Ventura. Funny, they aren't looking at each other, or smiling either...

:) body slam him!!! PLEASE!

[editted to provide 2001 prices, not 2000 prices, doh!]

MarqSox
12-06-2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


From the Trib's official site:
Tribune Broadcasting owns and operates 22 major-marketing television stations, including national superstation WGN, and reaches 80 percent of U.S. television households. It is the largest TV group not owned by a network. Broadcasting properties also include four radio stations, Tribune Entertainment and the Chicago Cubs baseball team.

*Unless I am reading that wrong it sounds like they do.

Yeah, WGN is a subsidiary of Tribune Co. Why do you think they give the Cubs such reverential play over the Sox? Some of it is traditional media bias, yes, but mostly it's more of the creative bookkeeping you were discussing.

In fact, I was told that WGN originated from the acronym "World's Greatest Network," a takeoff on the Chicago Tribune's unofficial slogan, "World's Greatest Newspaper."

Daver
12-06-2001, 07:21 PM
Damn,Bud and the rest of the owners spent a month cooking those books through the art of creative accounting and everyone has no sympathy for the hard work it takes to hire people to prove you are losing money.

I have yet to see a fundraiser for baseball owners,anyone know why?

Paulwny
12-06-2001, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by daver

I have yet to see a fundraiser for baseball owners,anyone know why?

Every time a stadium is built, it's a tax payer fund raiser.

FarWestChicago
12-06-2001, 09:06 PM
The best part is Selig is lying his ass off to Congress with his microwaved books while King George is off spending money like a madman. It really helps his facade of lies.

nut_stock
12-06-2001, 10:27 PM
How about the league propose a ticket price cap

like 15,000 seats in every stadiun nust be under $15.