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LostInLeftField
09-25-2005, 08:39 PM
How is the "main stream" pitch count calculated?

Does it include only balls and strikes or does it also include two strike fouls, hits, etc.?

DrFunk
09-25-2005, 08:40 PM
It includes any pitch thrown to a batter. So that means fouls, hits, swings and misses, balls, etc...

LostInLeftField
09-25-2005, 10:05 PM
It includes any pitch thrown to a batter. So that means fouls, hits, swings and misses, balls, etc...

Thanks.

Why then do total balls and strikes always equal a pitcher's count when, say, Comcast is showing the statistic?

In other words, Comcast might show a graphic that illustrates Buerhle threw 57 strikes and 31 balls, equating to a pitch count of 88. It seems that this "main stream" stat does not take into account every pitch thrown to a batter, regardless of outcome.

HotelWhiteSox
09-25-2005, 10:09 PM
Thanks.

Why then do total balls and strikes always equal a pitcher's count when, say, Comcast is showing the statistic?

In other words, Comcast might show a graphic that illustrates Buerhle threw 57 strikes and 31 balls, equating to a pitch count of 88. It seems that this "main stream" stat does not take into account every pitch thrown to a batter, regardless of outcome.

I think the fouls are counted as strikes, don't quote me though :redneck

Daver
09-25-2005, 10:11 PM
:whocares

Mr. White Sox
09-25-2005, 10:18 PM
I think the fouls are counted as strikes, don't quote me though :redneck

Yup. In addition fast pickoff throws aren't counted as 'pitches', while 60 mph intentional balls are. Reason #394 why the pitch count stat is somewhat arbitrary and unimportant.

LostInLeftField
09-25-2005, 10:32 PM
Yup. In addition fast pickoff throws aren't counted as 'pitches', while 60 mph intentional balls are. Reason #394 why the pitch count stat is somewhat arbitrary and unimportant.

Riiiiight. That was what I was looking for. "Pitch counts" are a sort of red herring. Communication between pitcher and manager / pitching coach is a far superior method of gauging fatigue than "pitch counts". Though I do suspect, at least at the MLB level, that every action by a pitcher, whether it be a hard toss to first or a two strike count, foul ball, is monitored closely.. and, right or wrong, is plugged into some sort of algorithm.

Ol' No. 2
09-26-2005, 09:34 AM
I think the fouls are counted as strikes, don't quote me though :redneckAny pitch that the batter offers at is a strike, whether he misses, fouls it off or hits it fair. Pitch count is a useful gauge if a manager is smart enough not to rely on it entirely. He should know how each pitcher reacts as pitch counts get high. And he needs to rely on the catcher, pitching coach and his own eyes. Most do. It's only doofus commentators who make a big deal out of it.

downstairs
09-26-2005, 10:32 AM
When they show a pitcher's "strikes"... they aren't just counting called/swung strikes where a batter gets a "strike" in his count.

A hit is a strike, I believe. Every foul ball, even ones hit with 2 strikes on the count.

That way you know how "in control" he was, etc.

Every single pitch, no matter what happens, will count toward this total "strikes/balls" total.

TDog
09-26-2005, 10:54 AM
Any pitch that the batter offers at is a strike, whether he misses, fouls it off or hits it fair. Pitch count is a useful gauge if a manager is smart enough not to rely on it entirely. He should know how each pitcher reacts as pitch counts get high. And he needs to rely on the catcher, pitching coach and his own eyes. Most do. It's only doofus commentators who make a big deal out of it.

Exactly. Pitch counts mean different things to different pitchers, and most fans don't seem to realize this because commentators make it sound like arms will fall off if pitchers go much over 100.

Obviously, there is a limit to how much a pitcher can pitch in a given day and remain effective. As pitchers tire, they are more prone to make mistakes. The pitch-count number varies from pitcher to pitcher and day to day. The concern about strain a pitcher is putting on his arm is secondary with most pitchers under most circumstances. A manager starting a reliever who hasn't gone more than four innings might judge a mistake made at 80 pitches in a different light than a mistake made at 20 pitches. Many rookies are taken out after lower pitch counts because they don't go deep into games in the minors. Generally it's a matter of effectiveness.

There is a question of arm strain, but that varies from pitcher to pitcher. If you're not talking about permanent damage -- that is, a pitcher feeling something that could be a sign of an injury -- postseason managers are more apt to let effective pitchers go longer.