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SouthSide_HitMen
09-25-2005, 07:52 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050923&content_id=1221177&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws



After another quality outing by McCarthy on Thursday night, in which the 22-year-old rookie gave up only one run on four hits over eight innings, Guillen expressed that he might not be as quick to eliminate the young hurler as a starter in the postseason just yet. "If he continues to throw like that, he will be on my mind," Guillen said. "I'll think about it."

I can't see how this is possible - How can you ask Garcia and Buehrle to sit out of the playoffs being they are signed to long term deals (not to mention their experience and Garcia's niece). Contreras has to start at this point. That leaves Garland who I also think the White Sox are looking to sign long term after this season.

Maybe Ozzie is just talking up McCarthy to give him confidence for the future (and his final two starts) or maybe Ozzie goes with a 5 man rotation in the playoffs. With Ozzie expect the unexpected.

OEO Magglio
09-25-2005, 07:55 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050923&content_id=1221177&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws



After another quality outing by McCarthy on Thursday night, in which the 22-year-old rookie gave up only one run on four hits over eight innings, Guillen expressed that he might not be as quick to eliminate the young hurler as a starter in the postseason just yet. "If he continues to throw like that, he will be on my mind," Guillen said. "I'll think about it."

I can't see how this is possible - How can you ask Garcia and Buehrle to sit out of the playoffs being they are signed to long term deals (not to mention their experience and Garcia's niece). Contreras has to start at this point. That leaves Garland who I also think the White Sox are looking to sign long term after this season.

Maybe Ozzie is just talking up McCarthy to give him confidence for the future (and his final two starts) or maybe Ozzie goes with a 5 man rotation in the playoffs. With Ozzie expect the unexpected.
Who knows, but with the way he has been throwing he better be in the discussion.

buehrle4cy05
09-25-2005, 07:59 PM
It's not like this hasn't been done before. John Lackey was the game 7 starter for the Angels in the 2002 World Series.

SOXSINCE'70
09-25-2005, 08:03 PM
It's not like this hasn't been done before. John Lackey was the game 7 starter for the Angels in the 2002 World Series.

And Francisco Rodriguez was just another pitcher until he made
Yankmee hitters look pathetic in the 2002 ALDS.

chisoxfanatic
09-25-2005, 08:11 PM
Didn't Ozzie clearly state in an interview Wednesday on the Boers and Bernstein show that he wouldn't start BMac, simply because a few outstanding games against great offenses are meaningless?

Daver
09-25-2005, 08:15 PM
Didn't Ozzie clearly state in an interview Wednesday on the Boers and Bernstein show that he wouldn't start BMac, simply because a few outstanding games against great offenses are meaningless?

Ozzie is an idiot.

chisoxfanatic
09-25-2005, 08:16 PM
Ozzie is an idiot.

I think he's got a hard-on for his nephew-in-law!

doublem23
09-25-2005, 08:45 PM
I don't see anywhere were it's mentioned that McCarthy is being looked at over Garcia or Buehrle. I'd expect the Sox to take 5 starters to the post-season, right now I can't even fathom how that last spot isn't a fight between Brandon and Orlando.

antitwins13
09-25-2005, 08:57 PM
I trust the Oz man to make the right choice here, but I would be weary of starting anyone but Garland, Buehrle, and Contreras because they have the most experience.

Huisj
09-25-2005, 09:07 PM
I trust the Oz man to make the right choice here, but I would be weary of starting anyone but Garland, Buehrle, and Contreras because they have the most experience.

It could be argued (quite well) that Garcia has more experience than any of those three. He's started 6 games in the playoffs and is 3-2. The other three have no such playoff experience--Contrares has 8 games with no starts (11 innings), Buerhle has pitched a third of an inning, and Garland has 0.

Brian26
09-25-2005, 09:08 PM
I'd expect the Sox to take 5 starters to the post-season, right now I can't even fathom how that last spot isn't a fight between Brandon and Orlando.

The real fight should be between Duque and Vizcaino (and/or Duque/Marte, Duque/Hermy, BMac/Hermy). I just cannot imagine carrying Vizcaino at this point for any situation in the playoffs. I don't care how much preparation Duque usually needs...I'd like to see him available out of the bullpen before we bring some of these other guys in.

SoxFan76
09-25-2005, 09:16 PM
Ozzie is an idiot.

That's your opinion, but that idiot has led the Sox to the best record in the AL, and has had this team in 1st place since day 1. Not to mention he's doing this with a team that has (arguably) zero superstars.

Daver
09-25-2005, 09:21 PM
That's your opinion, but that idiot has led the Sox to the best record in the AL, and has had this team in 1st place since day 1. Not to mention he's doing this with a team that has (arguably) zero superstars.

This team wins despite the idiot in charge, not because of him.

downstairs
09-25-2005, 09:23 PM
I don't care who has a long term deal, I don't care who likes who personally.

Its about winning.

If BMac is winning and Garland and/or Burlymon are not... they can sit.

longshot7
09-25-2005, 09:31 PM
The real fight should be between Duque and Vizcaino (and/or Duque/Marte, Duque/Hermy, BMac/Hermy). I just cannot imagine carrying Vizcaino at this point for any situation in the playoffs. I don't care how much preparation Duque usually needs...I'd like to see him available out of the bullpen before we bring some of these other guys in.

VERY good point. I agree.

Jenks4Pres
09-25-2005, 09:49 PM
I think he's got a hard-on for his nephew-in-law!

agreed.

doublem23
09-25-2005, 09:57 PM
If BMac is winning and Garland and/or Burlymon are not... they can sit.

:?:

LaHerdiaGrande35
09-25-2005, 09:57 PM
I don't care who has a long term deal, I don't care who likes who personally.

Its about winning.

If BMac is winning and Garland and/or Burlymon are not... they can sit.
No crap. Oz said he'd take the hottest pitchers into the playoffs, so BMac's fresh arm should be there. Also, noone in the AL besides a few teams have seen BMac stuff, so he'd bring new stuff to the opponents.

doublem23
09-25-2005, 10:00 PM
I think he's got a hard-on for his nephew-in-law!

The guy with the 13-8 record and sub-4.00 ERA for the year? He can start for my team in the play-offs.

nodiggity59
09-25-2005, 10:08 PM
I gotta admit - Garcia is probably more likely to give you a solid start. BUT, at this juncture Contreras and BMac are the only guys who look like they could dominate another team. Still, if BMac doesn't pitch I won't be upset.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-25-2005, 10:51 PM
I don't see anywhere were it's mentioned that McCarthy is being looked at over Garcia or Buehrle. I'd expect the Sox to take 5 starters to the post-season, right now I can't even fathom how that last spot isn't a fight between Brandon and Orlando.

It is rare for a 5 man rotation in the playoffs - most teams use four unless they are desperate (or don't have 4 good ones) then they go to 3 on 3 days rest.

My comment was based on the fact that if McCarthy is added I can't see anyone who would be dropped (Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras and Garland). Even if Garcia or Buehrle really stunk for a month or so barring injury I just can't see any scenario where you have a pitcher under longterm contract that he will not be needed in the postseason (unless you have plans of trading / dumping) which in both pitchers case would be ludicrous.

My guess is he is just pumping up McCarthy's ego / confidence for his final two starts (and his future) and giving him an incentive because you never know what the future holds.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-25-2005, 10:54 PM
I gotta admit - Garcia is probably more likely to give you a solid start. BUT, at this juncture Contreras and BMac are the only guys who look like they could dominate another team. Still, if BMac doesn't pitch I won't be upset.

Did you catch the game today? Or yesterday's game? Granted the Twins are not going to be confused with the 1927 Yankees (even if they played Hunter, Stewart et al) but Garcia was off for a few weeks but I think he is / will be ready for the playoffs while Buehrle and Garland are also key pitchers.

I think they go four with McCarthy on the postseason roster and ready if needed to start or relieve.

nodiggity59
09-25-2005, 11:01 PM
Did you catch the game today? Or yesterday's game? Granted the Twins are not going to be confused with the 1927 Yankees (even if they played Hunter, Stewart et al) but Garcia was off for a few weeks but I think he is / will be ready for the playoffs while Buehrle and Garland are also key pitchers.

I think they go four with McCarthy on the postseason roster and ready if needed to start or relieve.

I'm not so sure. Fact is, the Twins made all four of our starters look like Johan Santana. And given Garcia's outing against Cleveland and BMac's vs. Boston and Texas, I definitely think BMac has the better stuff to dominate RIGHT NOW. Whether or not advanced scouting or the pressure will be too much for him is for Ozzie to decide.

SoxFan64
09-25-2005, 11:55 PM
Its about winning...If BMac is winning and Garland and/or Burlymon are not... they can sit.

True. But I do NOT expect BMac to be on the playoff roser. As Ozzie said last week, McCarthy is a starter and when BMac has come out of the bullpen they had to give him a longer time to prepare. And once he was warm they had to put him in. His arm is not equipped for relieving.

We have our four starters -- Contreras, Buehrle, Garcia and Garland.

We have our set-up men: Vizcaino, Cotts, Marte, Politte. Two lefties and two righties for all combinations of situations.

Closer is either Jenks or Hermanson. But both should be on the roster. We need Jenks in case Hermanson's back gives and we need Hermanson in case Jenks can't do the job. (He has had two blwon saves last week against a playoff team.)

I believe you can only carry 11 pitchers -- we need on more position player. So we have 14 position players.

So the final pitcher is either McCarthy or Hernandez. I think El Duke is the 11th. He has more experience. He has PLAYOFF experience. Yes he has looked poorly in his last outings but you need someone for either long relief or an emergency starter it is Orlando and not Brandon who is a beter fit. (See my earlier comment from Ozzie)

Just one person's opinion and I know I will get shot down by all the McCarthy lovers on this list. But you can't put a young head on old shoulders. Ozzie takes the Duke for the final slot and McCarthy sits out the playoffs (at least until there is an injury to a pitcher)

kevingrt
09-26-2005, 12:59 AM
All I can say right now is this pitching situation is very, very sticky...

Banix12
09-26-2005, 02:44 AM
True. But I do NOT expect BMac to be on the playoff roser. As Ozzie said last week, McCarthy is a starter and when BMac has come out of the bullpen they had to give him a longer time to prepare. And once he was warm they had to put him in. His arm is not equipped for relieving.

We have our four starters -- Contreras, Buehrle, Garcia and Garland.

We have our set-up men: Vizcaino, Cotts, Marte, Politte. Two lefties and two righties for all combinations of situations.

Closer is either Jenks or Hermanson. But both should be on the roster. We need Jenks in case Hermanson's back gives and we need Hermanson in case Jenks can't do the job. (He has had two blwon saves last week against a playoff team.)

I believe you can only carry 11 pitchers -- we need on more position player. So we have 14 position players.

So the final pitcher is either McCarthy or Hernandez. I think El Duke is the 11th. He has more experience. He has PLAYOFF experience. Yes he has looked poorly in his last outings but you need someone for either long relief or an emergency starter it is Orlando and not Brandon who is a beter fit. (See my earlier comment from Ozzie)

Just one person's opinion and I know I will get shot down by all the McCarthy lovers on this list. But you can't put a young head on old shoulders. Ozzie takes the Duke for the final slot and McCarthy sits out the playoffs (at least until there is an injury to a pitcher)

I don't know of any rule that would prevent a team from carrying a 12th pitcher if they felt like it.

The bench is another matter. If the sox do carry 14 position players you have the regular starting 9, Widger, Ozuna, Timo. After that I think it gets fuzzy, Blum? Willie?. I don't know if the sox have a 14th position player worth even putting on the roster so maybe they do carry a 12th pitcher. But the bench is another discussion. Either way it would be the 25th man and the 25th man on a playoff roster is usually pretty irrelevant.

Hopefully what will happen is the Sox clinch a playoff berth with a couple games to spare so El Duque can go out and pitch one of those last few games to show he can still pitch and earn a spot on the playoff roster.

I think McCarthy will be making the roster, the playoff rotation is another matter. Ozzie has some prejudices against youth and tends to favor experience but he also saw what Josh Beckett did in 2003 firsthand.

I also agree with who said Viz is the one who likely has to earn a spot.

MisterB
09-26-2005, 05:51 AM
Granted the Twins are not going to be confused with the 1927 Yankees

Massive understatement. The Twinkies have the worst offense in the AL.

doogiec
09-26-2005, 07:28 AM
Realistically its a little early to declare McCarthy ready to be a playoff starter. Ozzie just didn't give him enough Sept starts. But keeping him on the roster gives Ozzie a great back up plan. If any of the four starters looks like he doesn't have his stuff early on, and we've seen that happen with three of the four likely starters recently, Ozzie can give the quick hook and go with a pitcher who is at least capable of shutting down the opponent. I would hope that Ozzie would yank a starter who gives up 4 runs in the first couple of innings in the playoffs, even though that hasn't been his tendency in the regular season.

I don't see where any of the possible AL opponents have this luxury, and if it allows the Sox to get back into one ball game they would otherwise lose, it could be the difference between winning or losing a series.

Hitmen77
09-26-2005, 08:53 AM
I thought that playoff rosters had to be set by Sept. 1 and that they could only be adjusted if there was an injury?

I'm confused, because the talk on this thread is as if the Sox have a choice at this point regarding who to have on the playoff roster. I also thought that BMac was called up after Sept. 1 and, thus, would not be on the playoff roster.

Am I missing something?:?: Did they change a rule? Please explain.

Thanks and GO SOX!

chopperjc
09-26-2005, 09:33 AM
This team wins despite the idiot in charge, not because of him.


So teams with "better Talent" are not ahead of the White Sox depite Ozzie? Not a very good argument.

Banix12
09-26-2005, 09:58 AM
I thought that playoff rosters had to be set by Sept. 1 and that they could only be adjusted if there was an injury?

I'm confused, because the talk on this thread is as if the Sox have a choice at this point regarding who to have on the playoff roster. I also thought that BMac was called up after Sept. 1 and, thus, would not be on the playoff roster.

Am I missing something?:?: Did they change a rule? Please explain.

Thanks and GO SOX!

McCarthy actually was called up just before Sept. 1st to make a spot start (Aug. 30 vs Texas) and then stayed on the roster before rosters expanded so I believe that rule doesn't apply here, he was on the roster at the cutoff date.

However I believe players called up after Sept. 1st can be placed on the playoff roster to fill in for a player on the DL. With Big Frank on the DL I think the sox do have one DL exemption.

MsSoxVixen22
09-26-2005, 09:59 AM
I really hope Ozzie puts BMac in the rotation for the plaoffs. Yes, he's still a rookie but the guy has pitched VERY well. I'd put El Duque in the bullpen. And I'd use Marte hardly at all if ever. It looks like all our starting pitchers are getting back on track and adding BMac to the mix can only be a good thing. I hope Ozzie makes the right decision.

gobears1987
09-26-2005, 11:06 AM
THis isn't a bad problem to have. It appears we have too much pitching. How many teams can say that?

ballhog23
09-26-2005, 11:36 AM
I think that there is no way Ozzie will start McCarthy. He has too much to lose: If McCarthy pitched and had a bad start, its all on Ozzie (everyone would be second guessing his bad decision), but if Contreras/Garcia/buehrle/garland its a different story.

On the other hand you can't ignore McCarthy's success, I think he will make the playoff roster taking Marte's or Vizcaino's spot
MJ

ilsox7
09-26-2005, 11:37 AM
I think that there is no way Ozzie will start McCarthy. He has too much to lose: If McCarthy pitched and had a bad start, its all on Ozzie (everyone would be second guessing his bad decision), but if Contreras/Garcia/buehrle/garland its a different story.

On the other hand you can't ignore McCarthy's success, I think he will make the playoff roster taking Marte's or Vizcaino's spot
MJ

I think Ozzie has proven that he doesn't give a damn what people think of him. If he doesn't start McCarthy it is b/c he is a rookie and Ozzie wants to go with the guys that have been up for all of the season. And if McCarthy makes the playoff roster, it had better be for Marte's spot and not Viz's.

mdep524
09-26-2005, 12:05 PM
McCarthy actually was called up just before Sept. 1st to make a spot start (Aug. 30 vs Texas) and then stayed on the roster before rosters expanded so I believe that rule doesn't apply here, he was on the roster at the cutoff date.

However I believe players called up after Sept. 1st can be placed on the playoff roster to fill in for a player on the DL. With Big Frank on the DL I think the sox do have one DL exemption. Maybe we'll have two exemptions when Marte gets booted off the team again and placed on the DL for the rest of the season/playoffs.

TDog
09-26-2005, 12:06 PM
THis isn't a bad problem to have. It appears we have too much pitching. How many teams can say that?

I came of age with the Sox when Jerry Janeski and Jerry Crider were in the starting rotation. Looking at the Sox and seeing enough starting pitching remains a constant surprise.

Obviously, having a quality fifth-starter in a four-man postseason rotation gives a team a quality long reliever if a starter gets into trouble. For example, Tim Belcher was the odd man out in 1993, but came in after Jason Bere imploded in Game 4 against Toronto.

shaunburnette
09-26-2005, 12:07 PM
This team wins despite the idiot in charge, not because of him.

If KW wanted a textbook manager, Guillen would not be in the dugout.

You would think 94 wins would justify giving the manager some credit. Whatever the "idiot in charge" is doing seems to be working just fine.

Brian26
09-26-2005, 12:40 PM
So teams with "better Talent" are not ahead of the White Sox depite Ozzie? Not a very good argument.

Who has better talent than the Sox in the AL Central?

Bottom line is that the Sox need to take their best arms to the postseason...Viz should be left off, as should Marte. Marte can't find the stikezone, still, and there's no way he should be pitching in a close game in the playoffs.

Randar68
09-26-2005, 12:53 PM
Who has better talent than the Sox in the AL Central?

Bottom line is that the Sox need to take their best arms to the postseason...Viz should be left off, as should Marte. Marte can't find the stikezone, still, and there's no way he should be pitching in a close game in the playoffs.

Vizcaino has been one of our better releivers the last 1-2 months. Marte, he gone, IMO, but Ozzie loves to throw him out there when a base-runner is the last thing we need, for some reason.

I don't see Ozzie actually starting McCarthy. I wouldn't mind seeing it, although Rick Ankiel pops into my head when I envision it... Who does Ozzie remove from the rotation? Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland? Maybe remove Garcia, but that is a kick in the nuts to any of those 4 guys the way they've pitched all year, and Contreras should be the Game 1 starter, basically, been the best pitcher in the AL the last 6 weeks...

Brian26
09-26-2005, 01:03 PM
I don't see Ozzie actually starting McCarthy. I wouldn't mind seeing it, although Rick Ankiel pops into my head when I envision it... Who does Ozzie remove from the rotation? Buehrle, Garcia, Contreras, Garland? Maybe remove Garcia, but that is a kick in the nuts to any of those 4 guys the way they've pitched all year, and Contreras should be the Game 1 starter, basically, been the best pitcher in the AL the last 6 weeks...

It's really very simple. You go with a 4-man rotation in the playoffs:
Contreras, Garcia, Buehrle, and Garland (this is the current order of the rotation anyway).

You designate El Duque as the emergency/long-relief man in Game 1 (so he prepares as if he's going to start that day). You designate BMac as the emergency/long-relief guy in Game 2 (same situation, as he prepares as if he's a starter that day and will be ready to go). By Game 3, you've got your workhorse out there (Buehrle), and hopefully the bullpen can do it's job if need be. Game 4 is Garland's, and you let both Contreras and Duque know that they should be ready. Game 5 is Contreras again, and you tell every single one of your starters to be available to pitch.

Do NOT **** around with Vizcaino or Marte (and I'm ALMOST even saying this about Hermy). You take your big guns to the fight and win or lose with them.

JB98
09-26-2005, 01:35 PM
I don't know of any rule that would prevent a team from carrying a 12th pitcher if they felt like it.

The bench is another matter. If the sox do carry 14 position players you have the regular starting 9, Widger, Ozuna, Timo. After that I think it gets fuzzy, Blum? Willie?. I don't know if the sox have a 14th position player worth even putting on the roster so maybe they do carry a 12th pitcher. But the bench is another discussion. Either way it would be the 25th man and the 25th man on a playoff roster is usually pretty irrelevant.

Hopefully what will happen is the Sox clinch a playoff berth with a couple games to spare so El Duque can go out and pitch one of those last few games to show he can still pitch and earn a spot on the playoff roster.

I think McCarthy will be making the roster, the playoff rotation is another matter. Ozzie has some prejudices against youth and tends to favor experience but he also saw what Josh Beckett did in 2003 firsthand.

I also agree with who said Viz is the one who likely has to earn a spot.

There is no rule against carrying 12 pitchers, other than the fact that it is insanely stupid to do so. Assuming we go with a four-man rotation, that would leave us with eight relievers. There is no way in hell all eight will be needed unless the starting pitching completely bombs. And if our starters completely bomb, we'll be out early anyway.

Not to mention, if we make the World Series, you need the extra position players for pinch-hitting in the NL park.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-26-2005, 01:44 PM
There is no rule against carrying 12 pitchers, other than the fact that it is insanely stupid to do so. Assuming we go with a four-man rotation, that would leave us with eight relievers. There is no way in hell all eight will be needed unless the starting pitching completely bombs. And if our starters completely bomb, we'll be out early anyway.

Not to mention, if we make the World Series, you need the extra position players for pinch-hitting in the NL park.

IIRC you can change your roster for each playoff series subject to the playoff roster rules and DL exemptions.

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 02:00 PM
I don't know of any rule that would prevent a team from carrying a 12th pitcher if they felt like it.

The bench is another matter. If the sox do carry 14 position players you have the regular starting 9, Widger, Ozuna, Timo. After that I think it gets fuzzy, Blum? Willie?. I don't know if the sox have a 14th position player worth even putting on the roster so maybe they do carry a 12th pitcher. But the bench is another discussion... the 25th man on a playoff roster is usually pretty irrelevant.

Hopefully what will happen is the Sox clinch a playoff berth with a couple games to spare so El Duque can go out and pitch one of those last few games to show he can still pitch and earn a spot on the playoff roster.

I think McCarthy will be making the roster, the playoff rotation is another matter.

I just think you become unbalanced with 12 pitchers and only 13 position players. That gives you four subs for positions and eight subs for pitching
(once you take away the four starters). To me, that's unbalanced. It leave a you short an outfielder or short an infielder.

I agree with you that the Sox (as well as those of us here) want them to clinch early. It saves our heart and it gives them one final test for El Duke. I see Hernandez starting one of the games in Cleveland, esp. if clinch but even if we have not. You need to see if he has it. If not, then he is the roster and BMac is on.

I disagree with saying the 25th man is irrelevant. Situational subs are more the norm in the playoffs. Roberts (I forget his first name, Dave maybe?) was a late inning defensive replacement / pinch runner for the BoSox and he was a key to two of their rallies against the Yanks. So I think it is important who is the 25th man.

And if we need another PR then it is Willie Harris. He can also be the replacement in CF in case you need him. W/out Harris, only Pods can really sub in CF.

Timo is the lefty PH. Ozuna is the middle INF sub / injury and Blum is the replacement at the corners and righty PH. Widger is the sub for AJ.

But I think you need 5 subs for the position players and going with 12 pitchers is a luxury that we can't afford. IMO

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 02:02 PM
THis isn't a bad problem to have. It appears we have too much pitching. How many teams can say that?

Absolutely. It is a nice "problem" to have.:smile:

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 02:09 PM
It's really very simple. You go with a 4-man rotation in the playoffs:
Contreras, Garcia, Buehrle, and Garland (this is the current order of the rotation anyway).

You designate El Duque as the emergency/long-relief man in Game 1 (so he prepares as if he's going to start that day). You designate BMac as the emergency/long-relief guy in Game 2 (same situation, as he prepares as if he's a starter that day and will be ready to go). By Game 3, you've got your workhorse out there (Buehrle), and hopefully the bullpen can do it's job if need be. Game 4 is Garland's, and you let both Contreras and Duque know that they should be ready. Game 5 is Contreras again, and you tell every single one of your starters to be available to pitch.

Do NOT **** around with Vizcaino or Marte (and I'm ALMOST even saying this about Hermy). You take your big guns to the fight and win or lose with them.

But isn't that 12 pitchers??? Four starters (Garland, Contreras, Buehrle, and Garcia). Two long relief (El Duque and BMac). And the six relievers of Politte, Vizcaino, Cotts, Marte, Jenks, and Hermanson?

If you keep Marte off you are short a lefty. If you keep Hermanson off you are placing a VERY HEAVY bet on Jenks carrying the load. And Vizcaino is your only true long reliever (El Duque and BMac are really starters). It is a different mind set coming from the pen as compared to starting.

I agree with you that you take your big guns with you to the fight and for the entire season the big guns have included Hermanson, Marte, and Vizcaino. I think you create more problems by redoing your pitching at the 12th hour.

ilsox7
09-26-2005, 02:10 PM
If you keep Marte off you are short a lefty.

I would much rather have an effective right-handed pitcher (McCarthy) than an ineffective left-handed pitcher.

Brian26
09-26-2005, 02:12 PM
But isn't that 12 pitchers??? Four starters (Garland, Contreras, Buehrle, and Garcia). Two long relief (El Duque and BMac). And the six relievers of Politte, Vizcaino, Cotts, Marte, Jenks, and Hermanson?

Marte and Viz are nowhere near the playoff roster as far as I'm concerned.

What do you need Marte for? To come in and walk a guy on four straight pitches in a tight situation late in the game? He's getting killed by left-handed hitters anyway. I don't care about hurting anyone's feelings at this point. I want a pennant. I hope Ozzie and KW do too.

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 02:16 PM
I thought that playoff rosters had to be set by Sept. 1 and that they could only be adjusted if there was an injury?

I'm confused, because the talk on this thread is as if the Sox have a choice at this point regarding who to have on the playoff roster. ...Did they change a rule? Please explain.

Hitmen77 (I love the handle -- great season),

Playoff rosters are set Sept 1 but that is a bit like the trading deadline is set a month earlier. It is but it isn't.

You have exemptions for injuries. And BMac came up before the Sept 1. Crede will technically be added to the roster since he was on the DL (I think retro-actively prior to Sept 1).

As someone else pointed out, I think they still count Thomas as a roster exemption. In short, we will have a few different ways to add people.

Also someone could come down with a last minute illness or injury. Remember they in effect cut Mark Johnson who was on the team all year long to have Josh Paul added because he could be a back-up catcher AND PR.

So I expect Willie Harris to be added to be a PR for the team.

JeffIsTHEMAN
09-26-2005, 02:20 PM
If you keep Hermanson off you are placing a VERY HEAVY bet on Jenks carrying the load.


why would you even consider that???

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 02:24 PM
What do you need Marte for? To come in and walk a guy on four straight pitches in a tight situation late in the game? He's getting killed by left-handed hitters anyway. I don't care about hurting anyone's feelings at this point. I want a pennant.

We all want a pennant. I don't think there is a person on this list who does not want a pennant. If there is someone here who does not want the Sox to win the pennant please raise your hand -- and we will come and hunt you down like a dog :angry: or Cub fan.

I could care less about feelings too.

No doubt Marte has been a problem (understatement) :o: But he was effective his first two times back after his banishment. He did stink up the place on his last outing. But if stinking up the place on your last is the criteria then Jenks is gone twice, with his two blown saves and I don't see anyone asking for his head. Heck, most of us have him going straight to Copperstown with BMac and Anderson.

Those three can go in the LaMar Johnson, Darryl Boston, Joel Davis wing of the Hall of Fame.

I will take the Vizcaino and Marte (provided they don't throw up on themselves in the next week).

Flight #24
09-26-2005, 02:29 PM
IMO, the McCarthy talk was strictly before getting good outings from Garcia & Buehrle. Had they given up 2 stinkers (the weekend and their remaining start) while McCarthy continued to dominate, you'd have to at least consider it. It's very nice that they looked back in form to avoid that debate. Hopefully they keep it up.

As for El Duque, I think it's almost a guarantee that you see him out of the 'pen in Detroit when we have a decent lead and/or if we've clinched (in DET or CLE). but if the Sox haven't clinched the division, there's no way you see him in a close game, you just can't take that chance.

Finally, the playoff roster will almost certainly include only 11 pitchers, and possibly 10. That's Contreras-Garland-Buehrle-Garcia and McCarthy-Duque-Cotts-Politte-Jenks. The last 1-2 slots come down to (in order) Hermanson-Vizcaino-Marte. Yes, that's only 1 lefty, but check the splits v. LHers for Politte & Jenks - they're better than Marte's.

That leaves you with 14 position players: which lets you keep Blum, Willie, Ozuna along with Timo & IMO Anderson since he can play a good defensive OF. The alternative would be Gload, but I think that's unlikely unless they get him some ABs down the stretch. If they go with 10 pitchers (a possibility), then Gload gets on the roster.

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 02:33 PM
why would you even consider that???

Mention in the either Cubine, WhiteSox.com or Sun-Times. I forget which but the writer was talking about which pitchers were on or off the roster. The article (or columnist) was quoting Hermanson. It was an article about the time he spends getting ready to pitch everyday. He comes into the Cell around 2 for an evening game to get work on his back and to do exercises.

But there is obvious concern about his back and if the push is to have BMac on the roster then the choices are: Hermanson (back), Marte (head) El Duque (poor outings) and Vizcaino (inconsistent).

So there has been talk about Hermanson NOT being on the playoff roster.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-26-2005, 02:39 PM
There is a 0% chance Ozzie leaves Marte off the roster. He wants to lefties in the bullpen and Marte is his 2nd best option (which he finally realized last week) but is still an option.

AJ, Widger, Konerko, Iguchi, Uribe, Crede, Blum, Podsednik, Rowand, Dye, Everett, Timo and Ozuna are the hitters / bench.

Contreras, Buehrle, Garica and Garland will be the rotation. Hermanson, Jenks, Vizcaino & Politte from the right and Cotts & Marte from the left for the short bullpen. McCarthy will be able to start or relieve. I think El Duque makes it as well.

I would say they may be a small possibility Willie makes the roster at the expense of another bench player or possibly McCarthy / El Duque.

If it was me I would sit El Duque unless he can show he is ready sometime this week. I wouldn't leave McCarthy off for any reason. If a starter goes down or doesn't have it he can give you several solid innings and keep you in the game. I would also have been playing Anderson this month and swapped him for Timo but then again I am assuming he doesn't have incriminating photos of me.

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 02:45 PM
Finally, the playoff roster will almost certainly include only 11 pitchers, and possibly 10... That leaves you with 14 position players: which lets you keep Blum, Willie, Ozuna along with Timo & IMO Anderson since he can play a good defensive OF. The alternative would be Gload, but I think that's unlikely unless they get him some ABs down the stretch. If they go with 10 pitchers (a possibility), then Gload gets on the roster.

If they can get to just ten pitchers I am all for it. But look at all the trouble we have getting to 11 pitchers. And some want 12 pitchers which IMO is the wrong way to go.

But if we get to 10 pitchers then you are 100% correct you get to add either Anderson or Gload. Or you add Anderson AND Gload and drop Blum.

Several tests this week (besides clinching :D:): Marte is he ready?; Vizcaino is he needed?; El Duque / BMac which one is on the roster; Blum / Gload / Anderson who makes it?

Nice problem to have? :smile:

Banix12
09-26-2005, 02:57 PM
IMO, the McCarthy talk was strictly before getting good outings from Garcia & Buehrle. Had they given up 2 stinkers (the weekend and their remaining start) while McCarthy continued to dominate, you'd have to at least consider it. It's very nice that they looked back in form to avoid that debate. Hopefully they keep it up.

As for El Duque, I think it's almost a guarantee that you see him out of the 'pen in Detroit when we have a decent lead and/or if we've clinched (in DET or CLE). but if the Sox haven't clinched the division, there's no way you see him in a close game, you just can't take that chance.

Finally, the playoff roster will almost certainly include only 11 pitchers, and possibly 10. That's Contreras-Garland-Buehrle-Garcia and McCarthy-Duque-Cotts-Politte-Jenks. The last 1-2 slots come down to (in order) Hermanson-Vizcaino-Marte. Yes, that's only 1 lefty, but check the splits v. LHers for Politte & Jenks - they're better than Marte's.

That leaves you with 14 position players: which lets you keep Blum, Willie, Ozuna along with Timo & IMO Anderson since he can play a good defensive OF. The alternative would be Gload, but I think that's unlikely unless they get him some ABs down the stretch. If they go with 10 pitchers (a possibility), then Gload gets on the roster.

I agree that it will probably be 11 or 10 pitchers, when I said 12 pitchers earlier it was just to point out that you can do it, even if it is stupid.

Not to give the FORG hope, but looking at the way Blum has been used the last couple weeks I think Gload has a decent shot at the playoff roster. At the start of this month Blum was acting as the primary backup at 1st, filling in late and getting occasional start. Lately Gload has become the guy filling in late innings and he has even pinch run a couple times, though he has not started.

Blum has barely touched the playing field for about a week or so. Gload is getting in there every other night, just not hitting. In the playoffs neither Blum or Gload are going anywhere near the batters box and since Gload is superior defensively and on the basepaths he might get a nod over Blum since Ozuna's emergence at 3rd makes him expendable there and Willie is superior at 2nd.

You also need a backup at 1st since Konerko is slower than molasses on an Alaska winter evening and we are going to have to pinch run for him at least once.

Just looking at this I don't see Blum as much of a lock right now and it might be a bench of Willie, Gload, Widger, Ozuna and Timo.

Have I ever mentioned how much I hate how useless the Bench players are?

Flight #24
09-26-2005, 03:01 PM
If they can get to just ten pitchers I am all for it. But look at all the trouble we have getting to 11 pitchers. And some want 12 pitchers which IMO is the wrong way to go.

But if we get to 10 pitchers then you are 100% correct you get to add either Anderson or Gload. Or you add Anderson AND Gload and drop Blum.

Several tests this week (besides clinching :D:): Marte is he ready?; Vizcaino is he needed?; El Duque / BMac which one is on the roster; Blum / Gload / Anderson who makes it?

Nice problem to have? :smile:

The arguments for 11 pitchers are more based on "you can't cut Player X" than "We need Player X". Teams operate with 11 man pitching staffs all the time in the regular season, which means most of the time they need 6 relievers. In the postseason, 4 starters+6 relievers=10. So as I think more about it, I think they'll come down to keeping whoever they think is their best bet among Hermanson/Vizcaino/Marte and go with the extra position player. And I'd bet on Hermanson because he's the only guy who's closed with any reliability outside of Jenks. That would give you the ability to throw Jenks against a key lefty and then bring back Hermanson to close if necessary. The alternative would be throwing Marte against the lefty and saving Jenks, both of which IMO are fraught with higher risk than the former proposal.

Flight #24
09-26-2005, 03:04 PM
That leaves you with 14 position players: which lets you keep Blum, Willie, Ozuna along with Timo & IMO Anderson since he can play a good defensive OF. The alternative would be Gload, but I think that's unlikely unless they get him some ABs down the stretch. If they go with 10 pitchers (a possibility), then Gload gets on the roster.

Oops, forgot Widger. 14 position players=5 bench players=Widger+Harris+Blum+Ozuna+Timo. It's possible they keep Gload over Blum, but I doubt it. If they go to 15 position player/10 pitchers, then you decide between Anderson (OF D), and Gload (more MLB batting experience).

Backup 1B will be Blum/Dye. And IMO they'll keep Blum for his defensive versatility late in games.

Brian26
09-26-2005, 03:49 PM
There is a 0% chance Ozzie leaves Marte off the roster. He wants to lefties in the bullpen and Marte is his 2nd best option (which he finally realized last week) but is still an option.

This is ridiculous. I hope KW and Ozzie see through the lefty/righty bull**** and bring their best pitchers. Marte is not playoff-caliber.

shaunburnette
09-26-2005, 04:08 PM
This is ridiculous. I hope KW and Ozzie see through the lefty/righty bull**** and bring their best pitchers. Marte is not playoff-caliber.

Agreed. How many times has Marte come in for an important scenerio and walked the 1st batter he faced? I think the majority agrees that the Sox should leave him off the roster but I kind of think he is still going to be on it.

Brian26
09-26-2005, 04:15 PM
Agreed. How many times has Marte come in for an important scenerio and walked the 1st batter he faced? I think the majority agrees that the Sox should leave him off the roster but I kind of think he is still going to be on it.

Anyone remember NLCS Game 6 and 7 in '03? Dusty was screwing around with Dave Veres while McKeon brought in Beckett and Willis in relief. This is the way Ozzie has got to manage. Play like there's no tomorrow. Go down swinging with your best arms. Leave Viz and Marte home. Go with BMac and Duque.

SoxFan64
09-26-2005, 10:43 PM
Go down swinging with your best arms. Leave Viz and Marte home. Go with BMac and Duque.

The problem is having El Duque and BMac on the playoff gives you six starters and four or five relievers. Starting and relieving are two different mind sets. You need a rubber arm for relieving and I don't think McCarthy and Hernandez can switch on a dime?

So your top relievers are (from closer to set-up): Hermanson, Jenks, Cotts, and Politte. And you are leaving Marte and Vizcaino off. Which again leaves you with one lefty in the pen and no true long reliever.

Doing that IMO is akin to having no backup outfielders.

It is too risky that's all.

Banix12
09-26-2005, 11:40 PM
I just wonder if you want to carry El Duque on the roster at all. I know about his reputation for being big in the playoffs but based on his recent performaces this season I would rather take just about anybody over him.

And if you remember his game last season he wasn't exactly lights out. 3 runs over 5 innings, not bad, but he got himself into quite a few jams via the walk as I recall.

i know it's his rep, but I wouldn't be crying if he was left off

Optipessimism
09-27-2005, 01:28 PM
I can't believe nobody has posted the stats:

Since coming back from AAA, McCarthy is 2-0 with a 0.13 ERA in 31 1/3 IP (4 ER).

Guillen will wait until the end of the year to make his decision, but if Brandon keeps it up he is in the playoff rotation.

As for most of the comments made in this thread, here's the truth. In the playoffs it doesn't matter what your name is, how old you are, or how long you've been around. The only thing that matters is results, and since coming back he has been the no. 2 pitcher on this staff. If he keeps it up I don't care whose spot he takes. I don't care if Garland, Buehrle, or Freddy deserve it. I think we deserve a World Series, and I think come playoff time Ozzie will have the best men ready for the job.

DenverSock
09-27-2005, 01:38 PM
Bluntly somebody should post Orlando's stats in the second half. They're not pretty.

DenverSock
09-27-2005, 01:43 PM
We all want a pennant. I don't think there is a person on this list who does not want a pennant. If there is someone here who does not want the Sox to win the pennant please raise your hand -- and we will come and hunt you down like a dog :angry: or Cub fan.

How dare you compare my dogs to Cub Fans!

petekat
09-27-2005, 01:49 PM
2nd that- without Oz, we're not close. If Mccarthy pitches well again, we'd be foolish to keep him off the playoff rotation. The way he shut down Boston especially.... who cares about long Cterm deals and bruised egos. Why not go with Jose, Buerhrle, Garcia and Mccarthy? or Garland, and have Garcia out of the pen... at this stage.... it's results. If Garland walks because of this perceived slight.. so be it.



That's your opinion, but that idiot has led the Sox to the best record in the AL, and has had this team in 1st place since day 1. Not to mention he's doing this with a team that has (arguably) zero superstars.

petekat
09-27-2005, 01:53 PM
something tells me that the long layoff helps El Duque (the way Crede benefited from the rest). Hopefully, we take care of business in Detroit so we have the opportunity to test out El Duque in an extended LR (or starting role) the last weekend in Cleveland. If he captures some of his magic, love to see him in a situational role out of the bullpen (especially if we have to face the Yankees or Red Sox)...despite what they say about his extensive pre-game rituals/time to prepare. Much more comfortable with El Duque using his guile in a tough situation than either Vizcaino or Marte



I just wonder if you want to carry El Duque on the roster at all. I know about his reputation for being big in the playoffs but based on his recent performaces this season I would rather take just about anybody over him.

And if you remember his game last season he wasn't exactly lights out. 3 runs over 5 innings, not bad, but he got himself into quite a few jams via the walk as I recall.

i know it's his rep, but I wouldn't be crying if he was left off

mdep524
09-27-2005, 02:04 PM
Bluntly somebody should post Orlando's stats in the second half. They're not pretty. Here ya go- Post All-Star break: 2-7 5.60 ERA 1.32 WHIP.

His WHIP is actually lower than it was during the first half, which shows its his ability to get out of jams, not his ability to avoid them altogether, that has fallen off and caused his demise. He also has less walks and more Ks in the second half than in the first half, with the exact same amount of IP.