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PennStater98r
09-23-2005, 09:23 AM
The Sox better figure out what bat to bring over for next year.

Thoughts?

SoxFan78
09-23-2005, 09:24 AM
Carlos Lee?

Baby Fisk
09-23-2005, 09:26 AM
Carlos Lee?
I sorely, badly, desperately needed a good laugh. THANK YOU! :cheers:

PatK
09-23-2005, 09:26 AM
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/i/2/pro_sammysosa.jpg

Jew noo my hart eez always been in Chickago.

PennStater98r
09-23-2005, 09:28 AM
Carlos Lee?

lol! Good one!

rdwj
09-23-2005, 09:28 AM
http://espndeportes.espn.go.com/i/2/pro_sammysosa.jpg
Jew noo my hart eez always been in Chickago.

I can just see our fans now

:o: :?: :(: :?: :o: :(: :o: :?:

Clarkdog
09-23-2005, 09:50 AM
If this falls apart (still don't think it will), only one bat will capture fan interest...

Chemistry can take a back seat...I'll take the RBIs this guy can generate hitting in front of Konerko.

1951Campbell
09-23-2005, 09:54 AM
ManRam takes even worse lines than Rowand. How will Randar cope?

chisoxfanatic
09-23-2005, 09:55 AM
If this falls apart (still don't think it will), only one bat will capture fan interest...

Chemistry can take a back seat...I'll take the RBIs this guy can generate hitting in front of Konerko.

But, Manny Ramirez wouldn't ruin this team's chemistry. Have you seen how loose he is in the Boston dugout? Hell, the entire Boston team is always loose and joking around. Their chemistry is great; not even one cancer exists there. I'd want Manny in a heartbeat, even at DH (I don't know if Frank will ever play again).

Hangar18
09-23-2005, 10:04 AM
But, Manny Ramirez wouldn't ruin this team's chemistry. Have you seen how loose he is in the Boston dugout? Hell, the entire Boston team is always loose and joking around. Their chemistry is great; not even one cancer exists there. I'd want Manny in a heartbeat, even at DH


:reinsy
" Whoah Whoah Whoa .....wait a second here. Everyone, lets all take a deep breath here. I know things are a little crazy, were all a little clouded in judgement ......... Look at all the $$$$$ we saved this season!! "

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2005, 10:06 AM
:reinsy
" Whoah Whoah Whoa .....wait a second here. Everyone, lets all take a deep breath here. I know things are a little crazy, were all a little clouded in judgement ......... Look at all the $$$$$ we saved this season!! "

Last time I checked payroll is higher this year. So how did the Sox save money?

Do you ever think before you post?

Lip Man 1
09-23-2005, 10:10 AM
I think Hangar is trying to say (tell me if I'm wrong Hangar) that factoring in the huge fan increase at the park, the profit margin is a lot bigger even though they have a 75 million dollar payroll.

I think he is also factoring in that they didn't pick up payroll at the trade deadline and that it remains to be seen if the payroll will go up again this off season especially considering that if they do 'choke' away this monster lead many fans may not be back.

Just a guess.

Lip

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2005, 10:18 AM
I think Hangar is trying to say (tell me if I'm wrong Hangar) that factoring in the huge fan increase at the park, the profit margin is a lot bigger even though they have a 75 million dollar payroll.

I think he is also factoring in that they didn't pick up payroll at the trade deadline and that it remains to be seen if the payroll will go up again this off season especially considering that if they do 'choke' away this monster lead many fans may not be back.

Just a guess.

Lip

Please Hangar is the first one to rip Reinsdorf about being "cheap." The whole first half of the season he was upset that Dye was in RF, and now he is upset that Lee is no longer here.

He doesnt take in consideration that the money "saved" they went out and got AJ, Iguchi, Hernandez, etc.

Like someone stated in another thread, dont let facts get in the way of a Hangar rant.

voodoochile
09-23-2005, 10:32 AM
ManRam takes even worse lines than Rowand. How will Randar cope?

I imagine he'll eyeball the 1.2 OPS Ramirez would put up hitting in the Cell full time and immediately burst into a hysterical fit of giggling. I know that's what I would do, but what the heck, make Manny the DH, leave the rest of the team intact and see what happens...

voodoochile
09-23-2005, 10:33 AM
I think Hangar is trying to say (tell me if I'm wrong Hangar) that factoring in the huge fan increase at the park, the profit margin is a lot bigger even though they have a 75 million dollar payroll.

I think he is also factoring in that they didn't pick up payroll at the trade deadline and that it remains to be seen if the payroll will go up again this off season especially considering that if they do 'choke' away this monster lead many fans may not be back.

Just a guess.

Lip

Who was there to pick up? Just curious...

Griffey? Isn't he on the DL full time right now?

TDog
09-23-2005, 10:37 AM
The Sox better figure out what bat to bring over for next year.

Thoughts?

You misspelled "bats."

BeviBall!
09-23-2005, 10:38 AM
You misspelled "bats."

Awesome.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2005, 10:40 AM
Voodoo:

Can't argue with you. I'm just saying that Hangar feels that regardless of circumstances it should have been done and ultimately maybe he is going to be right.

Lip

Foulke You
09-23-2005, 10:43 AM
I imagine he'll eyeball the 1.2 OPS Ramirez would put up hitting in the Cell full time and immediately burst into a hysterical fit of giggling. I know that's what I would do, but what the heck, make Manny the DH, leave the rest of the team intact and see what happens...
That's what I would do, definitely DH. Why sacrifice our good outfield defense of Rowand/Pods/Dye by putting Manny the non-hustling anchor in LF? Manny is a pure DH who would be a beast at the Cell. If you let Everett and Thomas walk via free agency (as hard as it would be to see Frank go) that would be about $10 million freed up after Frank's buyout. I know it will take more than $10 million per to get Manny but you wouldn't have to cough up too much more. If you can somehow re-sign Konerko or sign Delgado, then you'd have a pretty formidable 3-4-5 of Manny, Paulie/Delgado, and Dye. That's offense with a capital O.

sox7235
09-23-2005, 10:53 AM
That's what I would do, definitely DH. Why sacrifice our good outfield defense of Rowand/Pods/Dye by putting Manny the non-hustling anchor in LF? Manny is a pure DH who would be a beast at the Cell. If you let Everett and Thomas walk via free agency (as hard as it would be to see Frank go) that would be about $10 million freed up after Frank's buyout. I know it will take more than $10 million per to get Manny but you wouldn't have to cough up too much more. If you can somehow re-sign Konerko or sign Delgado, then you'd have a pretty formidable 3-4-5 of Manny, Paulie/Delgado, and Dye. That's offense with a capital O.

I think Delgado signed long term with Florida

White Sox Randy
09-23-2005, 11:00 AM
Hideki Matsui

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 11:21 AM
Last time I checked payroll is higher this year. So how did the Sox save money?

Do you ever think before you post?
No. Nobody ever accused Hangar of making intelligent, thought out, fact supported posts. He went to the Lip school of Reinsdorf hating, and he will never admit that the man a)did anything good at all, or b)isn't cheap. Yes, our payroll jumped substantially from last year. Yes, JR would have let KW take on a lot of salary in a trade, but nothing was to be had. However, that doesn't it in with one of Hangar's crazy conpiracy theories, so he overlooks it.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2005, 11:26 AM
Roman:

No question Uncle Jerry has actually done some good things for the franchise. Unfortunately the things that he has done to hurt it far outweigh the good things.

You have to judge his impact on the franchise in total terms not just singling out something (i.e. he raised the payroll to 75 million this season..)

My Reinsdorf 'hating' is based on his accumulated body of work over the past 25 years. PHG actually has a 75 page biography of him for the website looking at his years running the team and it includes comments both good and bad from people that know him and worked with him. If you wish I can e-mail you a copy.

I went out of my way to get as many positive comments about the man that I could including researching a nice one from Dave Dombrowski but those who feel he's done more harm then good far outweigh the positive ones.

Lip

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 11:30 AM
I think Delgado signed long term with Florida
Yes, it was a 3 or 4 year deal. However, the first year of the deal was only for $4mil. Jayson Stark and Boston Gammons reported last week that Florida would be looking to trade him in the offseason. I think they signed him to excite the fanbase and try to get the stadium bill passed. They signed him to such a backloaded deal so they could trade him after the first or second year, get a king's ransom of prospects, and save money.
Meanwhile, Delgado is quietly having a great season again. I think he was injured for some period of time, but his numbers are still .306,32,110. Kenny has always been a big fan od his. He tried to bring Delgado over at the trade deadline last year, but he wouldn't go anywhere that wouldn't sign him to an extention. I have to think that if the Marlins really decided to put Delgado on the block, we would have as good a chance as anyone to land him.

Jjav829
09-23-2005, 11:32 AM
Griffey, Ramirez, Delgado, Dunn, Matsui, Giles....I don't care. We need at least one of them though. With the increase in attendance the Sox should be spending more this offseason, be it through free agency of acquiring bigger contracts in trades. And if Konerko leaves in free agency, we're definitely going to need to acquire two big bats.

tlebar318
09-23-2005, 11:34 AM
What if Brian Anderson gets a shot at full time duty? That's my vote and then maybe a Damon or Manny from the other Sox?

White Sox Randy
09-23-2005, 11:41 AM
Right now, I don't consider Anderson an upgrade anywhere.

tlebar318
09-23-2005, 11:43 AM
Right now, I don't consider Anderson an upgrade anywhere.

never know unless he gets a shot....Indians are doing it through the farm system..maybe we can too-Just my opinion...

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2005, 11:44 AM
No. Nobody ever accused Hangar of making intelligent, thought out, fact supported posts. He went to the Lip school of Reinsdorf hating, and he will never admit that the man a)did anything good at all, or b)isn't cheap. Yes, our payroll jumped substantially from last year. Yes, JR would have let KW take on a lot of salary in a trade, but nothing was to be had. However, that doesn't it in with one of Hangar's crazy conpiracy theories, so he overlooks it.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 11:52 AM
Roman:

No question Uncle Jerry has actually done some good things for the franchise. Unfortunately the things that he has done to hurt it far outweigh the good things.

You have to judge his impact on the franchise in total terms not just singling out something (i.e. he raised the payroll to 75 million this season..)

My Reinsdorf 'hating' is based on his accumulated body of work over the past 25 years. PHG actually has a 75 page biography of him for the website looking at his years running the team and it includes comments both good and bad from people that know him and worked with him. If you wish I can e-mail you a copy.

I went out of my way to get as many positive comments about the man that I could including researching a nice one from Dave Dombrowski but those who feel he's done more harm then good far outweigh the positive ones.

Lip
I am not saying he hasn't made some mistakes. He has made huge ones. I realize that. We have paid dearly for some of his mistakes. I am just saying that he didnt go on the cheap this past offseason. The payroll jumped substantially from the past year, and up until our recent collapse, there was no reason to think that the payroll wouldn't jump another 10-15 mil in the offseason. Hangar is an insane conpircary theorist in the same vein as Dale Gribble from "King of the Hill".
Hangar: "The Sox didn't raise their payroll. That is what Jerry wants you to think. He is funneling the money he saved on payroll and on his car insurance into the Andes Mountains, where he is building a weather machine. He plans on using it to take over the world, and create a new race of people who embrace low payrolls."

DirtySouthsider
09-23-2005, 11:57 AM
Jime Thome.....he's there for the taking, if you're willing to take on the salary.

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 11:58 AM
Griffey, Ramirez, Delgado, Dunn, Matsui, Giles....I don't care. We need at least one of them though. With the increase in attendance the Sox should be spending more this offseason, be it through free agency of acquiring bigger contracts in trades. And if Konerko leaves in free agency, we're definitely going to need to acquire two big bats.
OH GOD! I just had a thought of us getting Ramirez and Delgado. That would completely raid the farm system, and Boston likely wouldn't trade Manny to us (or even at all), but just the thought of that made me smile. That would be UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Hangar18
09-23-2005, 12:05 PM
Last time I checked payroll is higher this year. So how did the Sox save money?

Do you ever think before you post?

If the SOX had kept the team intact last year, the payroll wouldve been in the high 90 Million range. Instead, what they did was subtract the Highest Paid Players (some by design, some by default, Magglio, Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin) in a fiscal re-shuffling of the deck, under the guise they were "using money to acquire other players". The only problem I had with this thinking was it was too much of a hardline stance on $$$$$$, and didnt take into consideration "what If" we needed that extra player worth $$$$. Sure, the payroll was "higher" than the previous year, but by default

Clarkdog
09-23-2005, 12:07 PM
OH GOD! I just had a thought of us getting Ramirez and Delgado. That would completely raid the farm system, and Boston likely wouldn't trade Manny to us (or even at all), but just the thought of that made me smile. That would be UNBELIEVABLE!!!

The Red Sox will be looking to deal Ramirez this off-season and there has been considerable talk of a Ramirez - Beltran swap. Though Beltran has said he wants to stay in NY and may involke his no trade, and Ramirez gains 10-5 trade veto rights this winter.

I'm sure the Sox could package an attractive offer with Rowand and Marte + prospects, but it would come down to whether Ramirez would ever want to come to the South Side.

Hangar18
09-23-2005, 12:10 PM
He went to the Lip school of Reinsdorf hating, and he will never admit that the man a)did anything good at all, .

au contraire. Uncle Jerry helped pay for the funeral of a long-time, wheelchair-ridden SOX fan, George Burns. It was a very classy move and I gave him kudos.

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2005, 12:18 PM
If the SOX had kept the team intact last year, the payroll wouldve been in the high 90 Million range. Instead, what they did was subtract the Highest Paid Players (some by design, some by default, Magglio, Carlos Lee, Jose Valentin) in a fiscal re-shuffling of the deck, under the guise they were "using money to acquire other players". The only problem I had with this thinking was it was too much of a hardline stance on $$$$$$, and didnt take into consideration "what If" we needed that extra player worth $$$$. Sure, the payroll was "higher" than the previous year, but by default

For how many year were Lee, Ordonez, and Valentin with the team? And where did they get us?

Yes we need an extra bat, but that's only because Frank went down.

Under the guise? They used that extra money exactly to acquire other players.

You would rather have Harris playing 2nd, Davis catching, and a horrible bullpen just so you can keep Lee and Ordonez (don't forget HE is the one that didnt want to stay)?

Jerry said that money was not an issue at the trade deadline, it's not his fault no one was trading.

The payroll was higher. PERIOD.

Hangar18
09-23-2005, 12:35 PM
For how many year were Lee, Ordonez, and Valentin with the team? And where did they get us?

Yes we need an extra bat, but that's only because Frank went down.

Under the guise? They used that extra money exactly to acquire other players.

You would rather have Harris playing 2nd, Davis catching, and a horrible bullpen just so you can keep Lee and Ordonez (don't forget HE is the one that didnt want to stay)?

Jerry said that money was not an issue at the trade deadline, it's not his fault no one was trading.

The payroll was higher. PERIOD.

The reason we didnt win with Lee, Ordonez was we DIDNT HAVE TABLESETTERS at the top of the lineup. That was all we needed. They shouldve ADDED TableSetting type players to that lineup and we wouldve been GOLDEN. Instead, we got rid of the Hitters and Added the TableSetters. Smart. After years of trying to "win" with a bunch of homerun hitters and decent pitching and realizing some of the "hitters" were due big raises the next year, the SOX decided that, hey instead of a $96 Million Payroll, lets just set it at $68 Million or so (Sure, highr than year before) and use the "savings" to get other players. Noble in scope, this idea was faulted from the start. We were robbing Peter to pay Paul. My whole "rant" if you will, has always been ...........Why not just KEEP THE PAYROLL AT $95Million, and Use the extra savings on even more players??? This notion of Jerry saying "we saved money now, and now we can add players at the break if we need to" is bogus. Anyone available at the break is:
1: usually a free-agent to be/rental
2: going to "cost" more, in terms of future prospects
3: only really going to "cost" 1/2, being that SOX are only using him 2mos.

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 12:49 PM
The reason we didnt win with Lee, Ordonez was we DIDNT HAVE TABLESETTERS at the top of the lineup. That was all we needed. They shouldve ADDED TableSetting type players to that lineup and we wouldve been GOLDEN. Instead, we got rid of the Hitters and Added the TableSetters. Smart. After years of trying to "win" with a bunch of homerun hitters and decent pitching and realizing some of the "hitters" were due big raises the next year, the SOX decided that, hey instead of a $96 Million Payroll, lets just set it at $68 Million or so (Sure, highr than year before) and use the "savings" to get other players. Noble in scope, this idea was faulted from the start. We were robbing Peter to pay Paul. My whole "rant" if you will, has always been ...........Why not just KEEP THE PAYROLL AT $95Million, and Use the extra savings on even more players??? This notion of Jerry saying "we saved money now, and now we can add players at the break if we need to" is bogus. Anyone available at the break is:
1: usually a free-agent to be/rental
2: going to "cost" more, in terms of future prospects
3: only really going to "cost" 1/2, being that SOX are only using him 2mos.
OK, first of all, our offense wasn't great the last few years. It was extremely streaky. Those strreaks made the overall numbers look great, but the outcome wasnt great. Hangar, where the hell would these "table setters" play if we still had the "hitters" like Carlos and Ordonez? We can't bat 13 people. Did you plan on trying Scotty out at third?
As for Ordonez, he is done, and wanted WAY too much money, so don't even talk about him. This is about Lee and Lee alone. Podsednik is one of the best leadoff men in baseball. Although he had a rough year last year, he was still a very valuable player. The Brewers wouldn't give him away for nothing. We needed to give up something to get him, and it was Lee. We also got Viz. Luis was supposed to be a huge pickup for us. He has been solid this year, but he still hasn't been what KW had hoped for. He will hopefully improve next year. Perhaps you would rather have Crede leading off and Jon Adkins in our pen the whole year?
Dye is having as good a year as Lee. You probably realize that, but you overlook it because it is another excuse to bash Reinsy. They both are batting .269. Carlos has 4 more homers, but 31 more RBIs. Most of those RBIs can be explained by their spots in the order. Carlos bats 3 or 4 in Milwaukee, while Jermaine has manned the 6 spot almost all year. Our 3,4,5 havent been producing like they should, so there arent as many people to knock in.

Finally, LOOK AT THE PAYROLL FROM THE PAST YEARS! LOOK AT THE ATTENDANCE, TOO! While you can say JR did things to hurt the fans and drive them away from the park, the fact is that attendance was horrible for such a big city the past few years. Several teams who drew more than us spent less. He spent lots of money for so little attendance.

Deadguy
09-23-2005, 01:01 PM
Realistic guys we could pick up:
Ryan Howard
Lyle Overbay
Walter Young
Erubiel Durazo

Guys who could improve this anemic offense:
Delgado
Helton
Giles

Desperate pick ups:
Brian Daubach
John Olerud
Juan Gonzalez
Rickey Henderson
Julio Franco
Chris Sabo

Lip Man 1
09-23-2005, 01:04 PM
Roman:

Attendance was 'horrible' (your words..) the past few years because the organization did very little or next to nothing to actively try to get fans back. PHG has composed an excellent story or two about the Sox 'lack' of season ticket holders which actually drives attendance.

Plus since the White Flag Trade through the end of the 2004 season the Sox averaged 83 lousy wins.....yea that'll excite the fans.

Just my opinion but when the tax payers have already sprung for a new stadium for a multi millionare, after threatening to move the team, I think he is obligated to make the first moves to get the fans back. The fans don't 'owe' Uncle Jerry squat.

Lip

Shorty1983
09-23-2005, 01:05 PM
:LTP "pick me, pick me!"

Hangar18
09-23-2005, 01:25 PM
OK, first of all, our offense wasn't great the last few years. It was extremely streaky.
Hangar, where the hell would these "table setters" play if we still had the "hitters" like Carlos and Ordonez? We can't bat 13 people. Did you plan on trying Scotty out at third?

As for Ordonez, he is done, and wanted WAY too much money, so don't even talk about him.

This is about Lee and Lee alone. Podsednik is one of the best leadoff men in baseball. Although he had a rough year last year, he was still a very valuable player. The Brewers wouldn't give him away for nothing. We needed to give up something to get him, and it was Lee.

Dye is having as good a year as Lee. You probably realize that, but you overlook it because it is another excuse to bash Reinsy. They both are batting .269. Carlos has 4 more homers, but 31 more RBIs. Most of those RBIs can be explained by their spots in the order. Carlos bats 3 or 4 in Milwaukee, while Jermaine has manned the 6 spot almost all year. Our 3,4,5 havent been producing like they should, so there arent as many people to knock in.


CLee has come up CLUTCH for the SOX over the years, an intangible you just cant put a price on (hear that Jerry?) Can you imagine if LEE was batting in the 8th? or in the 9th or 10th? We win those games, because they wouldve pitched around him. He wouldve at least flew out! I think the SOX were so focused on his upcoming $8mill salary, instead of the fact he was one of our last good hitters on the team. Trading him meant now we dont have protection for Konerko. Assuming that Crede would breakout was a stretch, and assuming that Rowand would have another big year also a stretch. We also lost Ordonez, a very big part of our Offense (insert reason here) and Didnt replace him either. Your talking about guys who were clutch, could pick up RBIS and MAKE CONTACT when needed. Last nite, these pitchers were going right after Dye and Everett. I tend to think they wouldve pitched around them, making the next hitter a little more dangerous and more likely to see a better pitch. When Pods isnt on base, the pitcher isnt nervous anymore, and mowing down hitters, as opposed to previously. Dye picked it up a bit for a month, but wasnt there when we needed him early on ...........being forced to bat lower in the lineup now.

I wont argue Pods, he has been the catalyst for us, and im a fan of his.
But by the SOX ignoring their top of the order weakness burning their Window-of-Opportunity Bridge in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004, we finally had to pay the Burned Bridge Toll for this MISTAKE ............. finally by having to "trade" a Carlos Lee.
A rather high price considering the recent turn of events, would you agree?

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 02:33 PM
CLee has come up CLUTCH for the SOX over the years, an intangible you just cant put a price on (hear that Jerry?) Can you imagine if LEE was batting in the 8th? or in the 9th or 10th? We win those games, because they wouldve pitched around him. He wouldve at least flew out! I think the SOX were so focused on his upcoming $8mill salary, instead of the fact he was one of our last good hitters on the team. Trading him meant now we dont have protection for Konerko. Assuming that Crede would breakout was a stretch, and assuming that Rowand would have another big year also a stretch. We also lost Ordonez, a very big part of our Offense (insert reason here) and Didnt replace him either. Your talking about guys who were clutch, could pick up RBIS and MAKE CONTACT when needed. Last nite, these pitchers were going right after Dye and Everett. I tend to think they wouldve pitched around them, making the next hitter a little more dangerous and more likely to see a better pitch. When Pods isnt on base, the pitcher isnt nervous anymore, and mowing down hitters, as opposed to previously. Dye picked it up a bit for a month, but wasnt there when we needed him early on ...........being forced to bat lower in the lineup now.

I wont argue Pods, he has been the catalyst for us, and im a fan of his.
But by the SOX ignoring their top of the order weakness burning their Window-of-Opportunity Bridge in 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2004, we finally had to pay the Burned Bridge Toll for this MISTAKE ............. finally by having to "trade" a Carlos Lee.
A rather high price considering the recent turn of events, would you agree?
Are you dumb or do you still ignore facts?
Scott Podsednik REPLACED Carlos Lee. While he doesn't have as many homers or RBIs, he is Lee's replacement. He is the top of the order hitter who even you admitted we needed the last several years. He is the best leadoff hitter available, and he plays left. He replaced Lee, and brought us a "tablesetter".

Jermaine Dye REPLACED Ordonez. Dye, who you have harped on the entire season, is having a better year than Ordonez. He has been healthy all year, while Magglio is pouting after spending half the year on the DL. Magglio is in the clear on the injury clause in his contract, so he will collect much much much more than he was EVER worth from the Tigers for the next 4 years while he sits out with more "hernias". Dye will be off the books after next year, and he is costing us very little compared to what Ordonez got. Dye has had many fluke injuries in the past, but he is not hampered by a chronic injury, Magglio is. Magglio will probably miss 50-75% of the games for the remainder of his contract, while hampering the Tigers' payroll. Are you dumb enough to have wanted that? I know you aren't, you are just looking for **** to throw at the wall.

Jermaine Dye's production is NEARLY EQUAL to that of Carlos Lee this year. As I said before, a few more homers and many more RBIs for Lee, but that is all on his spot in the order. Since Jermaine has successfully replaced Lee's massive production, it is esentially a swap of Ordonez for Podsednik. I will tell you once again, WE CAN ONLY BAT 9 HITTERS A GAME. We needed a table setter, and the best one we could find played outfield. In your fantasy world, Im sure we could bat 11, 12, or even 13 guys a game, with 4 or 5 DHs. It doesn't work like that. If we kept Magglio or Carlos, we woudn't have anywhere to play Scott. Don't say DH, because that was always Frank's spot. Even without Magglio, we couldn't sign a big bopper to replace his bat in the outfield, and Hawk could tell you why. WHERE WOULD WE PLAY HIM? You can't have 9 power hitters (not that we have that) AND a tablesetter. We gave up 1 power hitter and gained a leadoff hitter. If you will argue that we should have found a leadoff hitter who plays third or short, that is fine. Good for you. We couldn't, so we found the best available.
Overview:
Podsednik replaced Lee
Dye replaced Ordonez
Dye replaced Lee's production
Essentially, the swap was Ordonez for Podsednik
We gave up a power hitter for a tablesetter because we had nowhere else to play him. No other great lead off hitters were available.
and finally:

If you think Carlos was "clutch", you are on crack. You are clouded by happy memories of him killing the Cubs, but that is about all he killed. If we won 13-2, he would have a homer or two. If we lost 3-2, he would be 0-4. He ALWAYS swung for the fences, even when he leadoff in late innings when we were down by 3. Lee was the ultimate in picking up garbage time stats. Homers when your team is up by 10 dont help you as much as when your team is down by 1. Dye has been somewhat clutch this year. Don't blame it on him just because he didn't come through last night. Carlos usually didnt either. All hitters are humans, and nobody gets it done 100% of the time. If you want to call for Rowand's head, fine. HE should have hit better this year. Rowand, Uribe, Konerko and Crede are the problems offensively in the lineup. If they would have produced more all season, you would still make this ridiculous arguement, but it would seem even more ludicrous to anyone who read it. We did just fine in choosing our LF and RF. Don't blame them.

CHISOXFAN13
09-23-2005, 02:36 PM
Are you dumb or do you still ignore facts?
Scott Podsednik REPLACED Carlos Lee. While he doesn't have as many homers or RBIs, he is Lee's replacement. He is the top of the order hitter who even you admitted we needed the last several years. He is the best leadoff hitter available, and he plays left. He replaced Lee, and brought us a "tablesetter".

Jermaine Dye REPLACED Ordonez. Dye, who you have harped on the entire season, is having a better year than Ordonez. He has been healthy all year, while Magglio is pouting after spending half the year on the DL. Magglio is in the clear on the injury clause in his contract, so he will collect much much much more than he was EVER worth from the Tigers for the next 4 years while he sits out with more "hernias". Dye will be off the books after next year, and he is costing us very little compared to what Ordonez got. Dye has had many fluke injuries in the past, but he is not hampered by a chronic injury, Magglio is. Magglio will probably miss 50-75% of the games for the remainder of his contract, while hampering the Tigers' payroll. Are you dumb enough to have wanted that? I know you aren't, you are just looking for **** to throw at the wall.

Jermaine Dye's production is NEARLY EQUAL to that of Carlos Lee this year. As I said before, a few more homers and many more RBIs for Lee, but that is all on his spot in the order. Since Jermaine has successfully replaced Lee's massive production, it is esentially a swap of Ordonez for Podsednik. I will tell you once again, WE CAN ONLY BAT 9 HITTERS A GAME. We needed a table setter, and the best one we could find played outfield. In your fantasy world, Im sure we could bat 11, 12, or even 13 guys a game, with 4 or 5 DHs. It doesn't work like that. If we kept Magglio or Carlos, we woudn't have anywhere to play Scott. Don't say DH, because that was always Frank's spot. Even without Magglio, we couldn't sign a big bopper to replace his bat in the outfield, and Hawk could tell you why. WHERE WOULD WE PLAY HIM? You can't have 9 power hitters (not that we have that) AND a tablesetter. We gave up 1 power hitter and gained a leadoff hitter. If you will argue that we should have found a leadoff hitter who plays third or short, that is fine. Good for you. We couldn't, so we found the best available.
Overview:
Podsednik replaced Lee
Dye replaced Ordonez
Dye replaced Lee's production
Essentially, the swap was Ordonez for Podsednik
We gave up a power hitter for a tablesetter because we had nowhere else to play him. No other great lead off hitters were available.
and finally:

If you think Carlos was "clutch", you are on crack. You are clouded by happy memories of him killing the Cubs, but that is about all he killed. If we won 13-2, he would have a homer or two. If we lost 3-2, he would be 0-4. He ALWAYS swung for the fences, even when he leadoff in late innings when we were down by 3. Lee was the ultimate in picking up garbage time stats. Homers when your team is up by 10 dont help you as much as when your team is down by 1. Dye has been somewhat clutch this year. Don't blame it on him just because he didn't come through last night. Carlos usually didnt either. All hitters are humans, and nobody gets it done 100% of the time. If you want to call for Rowand's head, fine. HE should have hit better this year. Rowand, Uribe, Konerko and Crede are the problems offensively in the lineup. If they would have produced more all season, you would still make this ridiculous arguement, but it would seem even more ludicrous to anyone who read it. We did just fine in choosing our LF and RF. Don't blame them.

Great post. And FWIW, nothing has changed with Lee. He's still a lazy, swing for the fences hitter.

Had a chance to watch the great Carlos Lee yesterday in the first gamr of ma two-city doubleheader.

Let's not overrate someone who is the epitome of average.

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 02:46 PM
Roman:

Attendance was 'horrible' (your words..) the past few years because the organization did very little or next to nothing to actively try to get fans back. PHG has composed an excellent story or two about the Sox 'lack' of season ticket holders which actually drives attendance.

Plus since the White Flag Trade through the end of the 2004 season the Sox averaged 83 lousy wins.....yea that'll excite the fans.

Just my opinion but when the tax payers have already sprung for a new stadium for a multi millionare, after threatening to move the team, I think he is obligated to make the first moves to get the fans back. The fans don't 'owe' Uncle Jerry squat.

Lip
All good points. I didn't say that we owe JR anything. I also said that he has made many many mistakes in his day. Some of them damn near fatal. I was just saying, look at our rank in payroll compared to our rank in attendance the last few years. We were in the bottom third in attendance, and right around half in payroll. I am not excusing JR for anything, and I am certainly not saying he is going broke. I am merely saying that he was spending money. It may be his fault that the fans weren't coming out, but compared to other teams' attendance, he spent a good amount. You can't spend $100 mil if you draw 1.5mil fans a year. The Sox did spend money, but not all of it wisely. The farm system also hurt the team. Instead of being able to sign one big player to play along side a great young player making next to nothing, we often had to sign several veteran refuge players just to fill out a roster. It happened. However, there is no excuse for Reinsdorf not going for the juggular in the offseason. IF the Sox blow this, they are going to have to remake the team's image, AND spend lots of money brining in big name players to show the fans that 1)the organization is just as disgusted as we are with the outcome of 2005, and 2)they are commited to winning.

Hangar18
09-23-2005, 02:57 PM
Are you dumb or do you still ignore facts?
Scott Podsednik REPLACED Carlos Lee. While he doesn't have as many homers or RBIs, he is Lee's replacement. He is the top of the order hitter who even you admitted we needed the last several years. He is the best leadoff hitter available, and he plays left. He replaced Lee, and brought us a "tablesetter".

Jermaine Dye REPLACED Ordonez.

Again ..............SOX enter offseason with 4 HITTERS
We Swapped a HITTER for a TableSetter. Helps the Tablesetter problem,
but now were a HITTER short (3)

Ordonez was a HITTER. we dumped him (rightly and arguably) and replaced him with DYE (2) Dye isnt Ordonez. Enough of the "whats he doing now".
Dye isnt clutch, is more suspect in the field than we were led to believe, and doesnt make contact. Dye was absent for the first couple of months, and
is hitting the SOFTEST .270 ive ever seen.

Frank Thomas going down was an unforeseen problem and put us a HITTER down further. (1)
So in summary, We Trade one HITTER for TAbLESETTER.
We let another HITTER go for a guy that isnt good.
Thomas gets injured. Now were down 3 HITTERS.
Konerko has been our only HITTER and going it alone much of the season.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2005, 03:04 PM
Roman:

I knew we'd finally agree on something :D:

Lip

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 03:05 PM
Again ..............
We Swapped a HITTER for a TableSetter. Helps the Tablesetter problem,
but now were a HITTER short.

Ordonez was a HITTER. we dumped him (rightly and arguably) and replaced him with DYE. Dye isnt Ordonez. Enough of the "whats he doing now".
Dye isnt clutch, is more suspect in the field than we were led to believe, and doesnt make contact. Dye was absent for the first couple of months, and
is hitting the SOFTEST .270 ive ever seen.

Frank Thomas going down was an unforeseen problem and put us a HITTER down further. We enter offseason with 2 HITTERS.
We Trade one HITTER for TAbLESETTER. Now were down 1 HITTER.
We let another HITTER go for a guy that isnt good. Now were down 2 HITTERS. Thomas gets injured. Now were down 3 HITTERS.
Konerko has been going it alone much of the season.
OK, Dye has been clutch. Your anger at him and managment has not allowed you to see what he has done this year. You can call him a soft .270, that is fine. Yes we traded a "HITTER" for a "tablesetter", but HOW THE HELL ELSE WOULD WE HAVE GOTTEN A TABLESETTER? Who? How? Where? You aren't understanding that we can only bat 9 players at a time. You admit that we needed a tablesetter. WHERE WOULD HE PLAY? The tablesetter we got plays outfield. Same as Ordonez. We couldn't find a SS or 3B who was a great leadoff hitter, so we got one who plays CF/LF. If we could have found a SS or 3B, we probably would have done that and found a bigger bat in the outfield. If we could find a 3B or SS who hit much better, we would do that. Don't say we are down 2 or three "HITTERS" just because we finally have a leadoff man. Either you are are just skimming over my posts or you dont understand what I am saying. Dye has produced as much as Carlos, and been as clutch as him. The only other opening in our lineup was the other OF spot, and it was filled with a great leadoff hitter. Comprende?

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2005, 03:13 PM
OK, Dye has been clutch. Your anger at him and managment has not allowed you to see what he has done this year. You can call him a soft .270, that is fine. Yes we traded a "HITTER" for a "tablesetter", but HOW THE HELL ELSE WOULD WE HAVE GOTTEN A TABLESETTER? Who? How? Where? You aren't understanding that we can only bat 9 players at a time. You admit that we needed a tablesetter. WHERE WOULD HE PLAY? The tablesetter we got plays outfield. Same as Ordonez. We couldn't find a SS or 3B who was a great leadoff hitter, so we got one who plays CF/LF. If we could have found a SS or 3B, we probably would have done that and found a bigger bat in the outfield. If we could find a 3B or SS who hit much better, we would do that. Don't say we are down 2 or three "HITTERS" just because we finally have a leadoff man. Either you are are just skimming over my posts or you dont understand what I am saying. Dye has produced as much as Carlos, and been as clutch as him. The only other opening in our lineup was the other OF spot, and it was filled with a great leadoff hitter. Comprende?

Roman,

You will never get him to agree with you.

At times I enjoy Hangars posts, but most of the time he loves wearing his tin foil hat and refuses to look at the facts.

Great couple of posts by the way. I agree with you 100%

Hangar18
09-23-2005, 03:17 PM
OK, Dye has been clutch. Your anger at him and managment has not allowed you to see what he has done this year. You can call him a soft .270, that is fine. Yes we traded a "HITTER" for a "tablesetter", but HOW THE HELL ELSE WOULD WE HAVE GOTTEN A TABLESETTER?
......................... Either you are are just skimming over my posts or you dont understand what I am saying. Dye has produced as much as Carlos, and been as clutch as him. The only other opening in our lineup was the other OF spot, and it was filled with a great leadoff hitter. Comprende?


And Im saying to you that Dye, though the numbers are similar, is a far cry from Lee. Im saying to you, and its arguable of course, is that LEE (or someone like him) in our lineup wouldve been more potent than Dye. Dye cost us plenty of games early on, so much so that he had to be dropped in the lineup!! Dye was also benched for stretches. Those games Dye Cost us, Lee (or someone like him) wouldve helped immensely. Comparing them now isnt really fair, because LEE bats at the top of their lineup, while its finally understood DYE isnt hitting and he bats much lower. For much of the year, Pitchers WENT AFTER Dye, and walk batters to get to him. That doesnt happen with Lee.

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 03:18 PM
Roman,

You will never get him to agree with you.

At times I enjoy Hangars posts, but most of the time he loves wearing his tin foil hat and refuses to look at the facts.

Great couple of posts by the way. I agree with you 100%
Thanks.
And for the record, I also enjoy many of Hangar's posts. Stick it to the Cubune whenever we can, hold them accountable for the **** they print.
I don't dislike Hangar, and I have never met him (although I got a sweet picture of him holding up a sign at the friday Cubs game at the Cell this year).
I just think that on this, he wont accept facts. He decided a while ago that he wasn't going down with this ship, so he is starting to point fingers and say he saw the cracks on the wall. He will blame JR for everything down to a parking ticket he got last January to stubbing his toe when he got out of bed this morning, and it is a little tiresome. We had a great offseason. If we collapse, it has nothing to do with JR being cheap.

antitwins13
09-23-2005, 03:21 PM
Who needs another bat when you got me?
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/images/players/action/ph_340392.jpg (javascript:popWin('/team/player_gallery/player_gallery.html?340392'%2C'playerGallery'%2C72 5%2C600)) Come on Timo Come on Timo!!! -Hawk

TheOldRoman
09-23-2005, 03:21 PM
And Im saying to you that Dye, though the numbers are similar, is a far cry from Lee. Im saying to you, and its arguable of course, is that LEE (or someone like him) in our lineup wouldve been more potent than Dye. Dye cost us plenty of games early on, games that I believe LEE (or someone like him) so much so that he had to be dropped in the lineup. Comparing them now isnt really fair, because LEE bats at the top of their lineup, while its finally understood DYE isnt hitting and he bats much lower. For much of the year, Pitchers GO AFTER Dye, and walk batters to get to him. That doesnt happen with Lee.
Most of his time in Chicago Lee was batting 5th of 6th. Frank, Magglio, and Paul all got walked so pitchers could face Lee. Pitcher went after Lee, too.

Gearbox
09-23-2005, 03:22 PM
...the Sox do blow this lead, it's imperative they gut this team in order to wash away the stench of losing...

There is no way this team could ever live down the humiliation and what fan in his/her right mind could ever get excited about this bunch of sleepwalkers???:?:

Fake Chet Lemon
09-23-2005, 03:22 PM
Shouldn't we stick with the formula that worked earlier this season? Instead of getting boppers, get some more smart ball type players. The boppers didn't work in seasons past, and when we started swinging for the fenses this year it all went downhill.

We miss Frank's two walks a game more than his HR's.......well it's close. Paulie has a ton of solo-shots with Frank out of the lineup. I want a team of double hitting guys who walk, and play some defense. I guess like Oakland and the Twins.

TaylorStSox
09-23-2005, 03:35 PM
Here's what I'd do. There's some deep pink involved so bare with me.

1) Resign Konerko... I've been opposed to it all year, but the market is so weak that we're going to have to hang on to him.

2) Arbitration for Crede... A strong IF defense is essential to this team. We only have 2 K pitchers. The rest really rely on their defense to get them outs.

3) Fields, Tracey, Rowand, lower level prospect for Delgado... Florida's looking to move Delgado. They backloaded his contract to make a run for this year. They're losing some pitching and they know it's the last hoorah for that team. We're going to have to pick up the entire contract, but Delgado would be an absolute beast at the Cell.
Even if the Marlins don't like that deal, you find a way to make it happen with guys that aren't named Chris Young and Brandon McCarthy.

4) Find another lead off man. I love Pods, but we don't know if his inability to steal is permanent. It's a mental issue as much as physical. His mechanics are screwed. He's not getting good jumps. Pierre might be available.

Pods/Pierre
Iguchi
Delgado
Konerko
Dye
AJ
Uribe
Crede
Anderson

While we're at it, we might as well sign Giles too.


Anyway, the positions to upgrade are DH, CF and LF imo.