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Viva Medias B's
09-22-2005, 11:52 AM
Apologies if this has been posted already, but Ozzie Guillen has apparently let the pressure get to him. In a Mike Nadel column for Copley News Service, Guillen is quoted as saying he'd leave the White Sox if we win the World Series. He also complained about the fans booing him.

Link (http://www.pjstar.com/stories/092205/MIK_B7KLUGDN.077.shtml)

I will not necessarily take a stand on the context of his or Nadel's comments (yet), but I think the comments Ozzie made were ill-timed.

EDIT: Mike Nadel was just on the Score with Mulligan and Hanley, and Nadel said he went to Kenny Williams and asked KW if he'd be surprised if Ozzie quit in the wake of a White Sox World Series victory. KW said he would not be surprised.

tlebar318
09-22-2005, 12:05 PM
Apologies if this has been posted already, but Ozzie Guillen has apparently let the pressure get to him. In a Mike Nadel column for Copley News Service, Guillen is quoted as saying he'd leave the White Sox if we win the World Series. He also complained about the fans booing him.

Link (http://www.pjstar.com/stories/092205/MIK_B7KLUGDN.077.shtml)

I will not necessarily take a stand on the context of his comments (yet), but I think they were ill-timed.

Oz, What are you thinking? agreed--poor time for this to be coming out...:?:

BainesHOF
09-22-2005, 12:07 PM
Geezus. Ozzie is falling apart more than the team. Get it together, man. And please start handling the pitching better.

Why are we pitching McCarthy against Santana?

Heffalump
09-22-2005, 12:08 PM
Nadel says "The Indians are so much more talented it's ridiculous. Travis Hafner alone is as good as any three White Sox."

Does he REALLY believe this? If so, this guy really does not know what he is talking about and we shouldn't give it any credence.

Baby Fisk
09-22-2005, 12:12 PM
Ozzie blurts things out. Seems like this guy took a couple of offhand remarks and turned them into an overheated expose on The Mind Of Ozzie Guillen. It makes for an interesting story, but I don't believe for a minute that Ozzie plans on leaving the Sox anytime soon.

tlebar318
09-22-2005, 12:14 PM
Ozzie blurts things out. Seems like this guy took a couple of offhand remarks and turned them into an overheated expose on The Mind Of Ozzie Guillen. It makes for an interesting story, but I don't believe for a minute that Ozzie plans on leaving the Sox anytime soon.

You are probably right--maybe Oz was just having a "moment"--who hasn't said stuff they wish they could take back right after it came out of their mouth? I know I have...

Viva Medias B's
09-22-2005, 12:16 PM
You are probably right--maybe Oz was just having a "moment"--who hasn't said stuff they wish they could take back right after it came out of their mouth? I know I have...

This is so true, but I think Ozzie should have known better.

MisterB
09-22-2005, 12:17 PM
Why are we pitching McCarthy against Santana?

And the Sox other option is who? El Duque? He who has given up a guaranteed 3+ ER per start for the last month? McCarthy's given up 2 ER or less every start since he was recalled, and twice held opponents scoreless for 7 innings or more. You don't send an unarmed man into a pitching duel....

DrGiggles
09-22-2005, 12:26 PM
Well once the nation hears these comments (ESPN) our fans will be marked as the worst in baseball with the best AL record. God this is bad for us.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2005, 12:31 PM
Giggles:

Most people and media already think we are the worst fans. Who cares what they think.

Lip

crazyozzie02
09-22-2005, 12:32 PM
This is truely sad. I feel bad for OZZIE. He's right. The teams given us 91 wins and yet dumbass fans are still booing him. I will never boo Ozzie again

ShoelessJoeS
09-22-2005, 12:35 PM
"I'll make more money signing autographs instead of dealing with this (bleep)."

Say it ain't so Oz

RallyBowl
09-22-2005, 12:42 PM
Ozzie is a human being. He has fellings and emotions just like anyone else. If I were him, I would probably walk away WS or no WS. He has managed his ass of for us. He has made some questionable decisions, but as I've said before, it depends on who's doing the questioning. THERE IS NO ONE WHO COULD HAVE DONE THE JOB HE HAS DONE WITH THIS TEAM. We have more than 90 wins, and we could still win 100 games this year. Did anyone think this was possible in April? I did, but I've been called a pollyanna. The only quote that matters to me in that article- when he asks if this is how he is being treated with 91 wins, what will 71 be like? He is right. As much as I love the White Sox, I would never want his job. I couldn't do it as well as he has. Again, no one else could either.



Our collective respect for Ozzie as a person and a manager is long overdue. Part of me wants him to be the only manager the White Sox have until he is old and his trophy case is full. Part of me hopes he does quit, so all the doubters and second guessers will realize what they had (they would never admit it though, I guess). Ozzie is a very good manager and he is in only his second season. He has potential to be the best to ever lead our beloved PaleHose. Many teams would love to have him, or someone like him, as their manager. We are lucky to have him. So appreciate him while you have the chance.

Palehose13
09-22-2005, 12:43 PM
I can't blame him. I feel like that at my job right now.

I was also thinking a few weeks ago about what it must be like to be one of our players. I love the Sox, but some of you ****s make it so miserable for these guys that I don't blame them if they don't want to play here. You guys turn on them at the drop of a dime. Now before someone has diarrhea of the fingers and gives me some diatribe of how we aren't cub fans, read me out.

I'm not saying that you have to absolutely love everything about everyone and look at things through rose colored glasses, but you don't have to be unpredictable bi-polar venomous snakes either. This is nothing new. I got into an argument with a brilliant fan who was booing Frank Thomas in 2002. That seemed to be the norm back then. Forget all that he has done for this organization, I guess.

And *** are we doing booing Ozzie when he walks to the mound, etc? If all you mother ****ers think he can do his job better, send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616

I don't blame Ozzie one bit. We "fans" are quick to point the finger at JR in regards to why players don't want to come here. What about ourselves? Players for the Sox don't have a short leash, they are on choke collars with the fans. I suppose we should forget that they are human too. Yes, I know that they are pro baseball players, and we don't accept mediocrity, yadda, yadda, yadda, but christ how about a little slack to the team that has the best record in the AL.

Oh wait, I forgot. You're must all be buying into the "collapse" story. That's right. And going to the ballpark and getting on our players when **** isn't going our way is a great way to be supportive.

Palehose13
09-22-2005, 12:44 PM
Giggles:

Most people and media already think we are the worst fans. Who cares what they think.

Lip

The past month or so is making me think that they may be right.

ShoelessJoeS
09-22-2005, 12:45 PM
Thanks Palehose for bringing the haters back down to Earth. Do you think anyone booed Ozzie when we were winning? :?:

Brian26
09-22-2005, 12:48 PM
In a Mike Nadel column for Copley News Service, Guillen is quoted as saying he'd leave the White Sox if we win the World Series. He also complained about the fans booing him.

For all of the hop-on-the-bandwagon media-types and fans, this is NOT news. Ozzie said this back in April. He said his ultimate goal is the World Series, and he said he told his wife he'd quit baseball if the Sox won the World Series this year. This has NOTHING to do with pressure during the pennant race, so, yes, this quote is being taken out of context.

Viva Medias B's
09-22-2005, 12:49 PM
I am not saying Ozzie has done a perfect job, but I have not booed him. I still question the timing of his comments, but I do see where he is coming from in getting on the fans for booing him.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 12:50 PM
:moron

Guess I don't have to keep looking for material for my column tomorrow!

Brian26
09-22-2005, 12:52 PM
Nadel says "The Indians are so much more talented it's ridiculous. Travis Hafner alone is as good as any three White Sox."

Does he REALLY believe this? If so, this guy really does not know what he is talking about and we shouldn't give it any credence.

Therein lies the reason this clown is working for the "PJStar", whatever the **** that is. I think I see homeless people handing that rag out at the train station every night.

Baby Fisk
09-22-2005, 12:53 PM
Therein lies the reason this clown is working for the "PJStar", whatever the **** that is. I think I see homeless people handing that rag out at the train station every night.I'm glad I wasn't the only one who was wondering "*** is the PJStar???" :?:

CHIsoxNation
09-22-2005, 12:56 PM
This sucks, he has done such a great job and has gotten this team further then anyone has in 5 years. It's got to be tough managing the most underappretiated baseball team in the majors.

I hope we take this division for Ozzie's sake as well, I would hate to hear all the crap he would get if we didn't. This team might finish with about 95 or more wins, which is what EVERYONE said would win the division in April. If it's not enough to finish in first then hopefully it's still enough to get in, but it's been one heck of a season regardless.

rdwj
09-22-2005, 01:05 PM
Ozzie is a really good manager that has the potential to be a great manager. I can understand his frustration. I honestly don't think fans are booing Ozzie. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that nobody want's to see Marte in a game. They're booing the situation and one of the options - not the guy.

As far as I can tell, fans still love Ozzie. I, for one, would really hate to see him go.

SluggersAway
09-22-2005, 01:06 PM
Good thing Ozzie doesn't post here; I fear he would've been banned shortly after those comments.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 01:10 PM
Therein lies the reason this clown is working for the "PJStar", whatever the **** that is. I think I see homeless people handing that rag out at the train station every night.

The writer is a national writer whose columns are picked up by papers, similar to the AP.

Law11
09-22-2005, 01:10 PM
Tues night during the big Crede game. I was on my feet booing as loudly as possible. Not at ozzie but he came out to talk with Politte and we all saw marte warmed up in the pen. After Mondays game the place was about to explode if he yanked Cliff for Damaso again. At least thats what i was booing about.

LuvSox
09-22-2005, 01:12 PM
I honestly don't think fans are booing Ozzie. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that nobody want's to see Marte in a game. They're booing the situation and one of the options - not the guy.


That is exactly what happened.

Viva Medias B's
09-22-2005, 01:13 PM
That is exactly what happened.

Exactly. I was there too, and the fans were really booing Marte. When Ozzie left Politte on the mound, the place erupted in cheers.

wassagstdu
09-22-2005, 01:15 PM
White Sox "fans" booed Ozzie when he first returned to Comiskey in a visitor's uniform as a player. That disgusted me so greatly that I actually dumped the Sox for a year or so, becoming a Mets fan. (My thinking is that being a fan of a team does not mean being a fan of the players, who change every year, or of the logo, but is based on shared experience and aspirations with a community of other fans. When you stop feeling like a member of that community you stop feeling like a fan.) I canNOT believe Sox fans are booing Ozzie this year. What the heck is wrong with people? I can't tell you how angry that makes me.

.

Hangar18
09-22-2005, 01:16 PM
Geezus. Ozzie is falling apart more than the team. Get it together, man. And please start handling the pitching better.

Why are we pitching McCarthy against Santana?

The "PRESSURE" has been mounting for some weeks now unfortuneately.........
There were a couple times during the last few weeks where a couple of "big" wins wouldve alleviated alot of this, but the SOX did themselves no favors
by losing 2 of 3 to KC. I think that was the series turning point that got the SOX in a bad state of mind. I was surprised favorably when they won 7 in a row, but the second they faced Anaheim, everything landslided terribly. The hitters became even more tentative, the pitching got slightly worse, our defense wasnt the same, and we just started playing SCARED. You could tell by the tossing and throwing of things by some of the players. MB remarked that they hadnt won anything yet, but the tone of his voice was more evident of a guy acknowledging they were in trouble, rather than a guy
respecting the team chasing them. Ozz has made some key bad decisions down the stretch here (continueing to "rest players, lack of substitions, overmanageing bullpen) that have backfired on him (where he got away with before) I just wished the SOX couldve done something to alleviate all of this before it got to this point .............. where its become like a refrigerator on their backs. This has become the proverbial snowball rolling downhill and Gaining Speed. We just have to start WINNING the next 8 in a row and Cleve will feel the pressure, I guarantee it.

bluestar
09-22-2005, 01:17 PM
The past month or so is making me think that they may be right.

Me too.

Face it, while generalization is always a tough thing, the Sox fanbase is an extremely frustrated group. Reading through this message board is proof of it. On the one hand, I find myself shaking my head at fans who are actually becoming physically ill over a baseball game. On the other hand, I woke up at 4:30 this morning (after having trouble getting to sleep after the game) thinking about the ass-whipping the Jnidians put on us last night.

I wouldn't blame Ozzie for walking away. I always wonder what motivates people like him to do something like this anyway. And I think the stress is truly showing on him. I have thought for some time now that he looks stressed and tired.

I also can't really blame fans for booing things that happen over the course of a game. It's tough to watch this lead slipping away, and it is extremely frustrating to sit through games like last night.

I have a wonderful wife, a five-month-old baby, a great job, and we just moved into our first purchased home. Life is good. So why do I let something like a baseball game bother me so much?

Hangar18
09-22-2005, 01:18 PM
Tues night during the big Crede game. I was on my feet booing as loudly as possible. Not at ozzie but he came out to talk with Politte and we all saw marte warmed up in the pen. After Mondays game the place was about to explode if he yanked Cliff for Damaso again. At least thats what i was booing about.

Thats EXACTLY what it was about. I sit behind the sox bp, and people chanted NO MARTE, NO MARTE. Ozz came out to go for Marte, I think the BOOOING changed hs mind

Jenks4Pres
09-22-2005, 01:24 PM
Therein lies the reason this clown is working for the "PJStar", whatever the **** that is. I think I see homeless people handing that rag out at the train station every night.

haha hilarious post :bandance:

I_Liked_Manuel
09-22-2005, 01:25 PM
the bottom line is that ozzie is crumbling at a time when he needs to be showing strong leadership. we're toast if he can't get it together.

RallyBowl
09-22-2005, 01:26 PM
With all due respect, Hangar, I think you are wrong. The booing definitely did not change his mind. If it did, I wouldn't want anyone who would be persuaded so easily as our manager.

CaptainBallz
09-22-2005, 01:27 PM
I'm taking this whole article with a grain of salt. Y'know if anybody should know, Ozzie should know what it means to be a manager of a Chicago sports team. Especially the SOX! If he can't handle it, then get the flip out!! *** is this loser talk from the MANAGER!!!

Of A FIRST PLACE TEAM!!!!

IN SEPTEMBER!!!!!!

Sorry, but that's annoying. I find it hard to believe that Oz would be a Dusty style beotch.

scottjanssens
09-22-2005, 01:32 PM
I boo Ozzie every time he does something stupid. I've been booing a lot lately. I boo when he brings Marte in. I boo when he lifts a reliever who's been perfect just to get a rightie/rightie or leftie/leftie matchup (even when leftires are .300 against the left hander!). How many games got away from us because he had the B team in? How many games got away because the score was tied or we were down by one and Ozzie kept a struggling starter in just to give him a chance for the victory? I think the Sox have won 91 games in spite of Ozzie, not because of.

I've been a Sox fan all my life and I'm a full season ticketholder. I was disappointed when the Sox hired Ozzie as the manager and booing things he does that I don't like is one way I show them I don't like the job he's doing. Blindly cheering and approving of the moves a team makes isn't the only way to be a fan.

I know most on this board don't agree this and that's cool. I just wanted to say my piece.

RallyBowl
09-22-2005, 01:39 PM
I'm taking this whole article with a grain of salt. Y'know if anybody should know, Ozzie should know what it means to be a manager of a Chicago sports team. Especially the SOX! If he can't handle it, then get the flip out!! *** is this loser talk from the MANAGER!!!

Of A FIRST PLACE TEAM!!!!

IN SEPTEMBER!!!!!!

Sorry, but that's annoying. I find it hard to believe that Oz would be a Dusty style beotch.

Comments like "get the flip out" and "loser talk" and "Dusty style" and fans like you are the reason there is a "what it means to be a manager in Chicago". What does it mean? That you have to put up with constant bitching and moaning and like it? *****. All you are saying is that the stereotype is true. That is what's annoying.

DaleJRFan
09-22-2005, 01:48 PM
I can't blame him. I feel like that at my job right now.

I was also thinking a few weeks ago about what it must be like to be one of our players. I love the Sox, but some of you ****s make it so miserable for these guys that I don't blame them if they don't want to play here. You guys turn on them at the drop of a dime. Now before someone has diarrhea of the fingers and gives me some diatribe of how we aren't cub fans, read me out.

I'm not saying that you have to absolutely love everything about everyone and look at things through rose colored glasses, but you don't have to be unpredictable bi-polar venomous snakes either. This is nothing new. I got into an argument with a brilliant fan who was booing Frank Thomas in 2002. That seemed to be the norm back then. Forget all that he has done for this organization, I guess.

And *** are we doing booing Ozzie when he walks to the mound, etc? If all you mother ****ers think he can do his job better, send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616

I don't blame Ozzie one bit. We "fans" are quick to point the finger at JR in regards to why players don't want to come here. What about ourselves? Players for the Sox don't have a short leash, they are on choke collars with the fans. I suppose we should forget that they are human too. Yes, I know that they are pro baseball players, and we don't accept mediocrity, yadda, yadda, yadda, but christ how about a little slack to the team that has the best record in the AL.

Oh wait, I forgot. You're must all be buying into the "collapse" story. That's right. And going to the ballpark and getting on our players when **** isn't going our way is a great way to be supportive.

This is post of the ****ing year.

OEO Magglio
09-22-2005, 01:48 PM
Tues night during the big Crede game. I was on my feet booing as loudly as possible. Not at ozzie but he came out to talk with Politte and we all saw marte warmed up in the pen. After Mondays game the place was about to explode if he yanked Cliff for Damaso again. At least thats what i was booing about.
And I think that's why a lot of people were booing. The thought didn't even go through my mind that Ozzie was being booed, the immediate thought I had was that nobody wanted Damaso in.

dannycater
09-22-2005, 01:49 PM
For Ozzie to think that a 15 game lead down to 2 1/2 in less than 8 weeks, and the fans aren't going to react negatively in some way, I'm sorry, he is living in a dream world...

In the first half everything went his way..now hardly anything is going his way..he took the job, he has to take the good with the bad....

Think of how Joe Torre must feel...especially when the Yankees started out poorly this year....all those successful years, and he has to take all that crap from people...it's a shame...

I for one, don't understand why someone would want to be a manager of a big league ballclub, especially in a big city....

daveeym
09-22-2005, 01:52 PM
The past month or so is making me think that they may be right. Oh please, every fan base boos, every fan base would be pissed about this collapse. 91 doesn't mean **** if it doesn't get the division or wc now does it? I'm far from a hater or a dark cloud but that's ridiculous. Yes the Toons are playing fantastic but no one else is and we're in danger of losing the wild card as well. If it happens it's a choke plain and simple and the boos are deserved. When a team was playing .680 (or whatever it was) ball for 2/3's of a season, sub .500 down the home stretch is a choke.

And I still think the sox will have this wrapped up by the Toons series making it all irrelevant.

Scotty347
09-22-2005, 01:54 PM
Why are we pitching McCarthy against Santana?

Have you not been watching El Duque lately??

OEO Magglio
09-22-2005, 01:54 PM
And *** are we doing booing Ozzie when he walks to the mound, etc? If all you mother ****ers think he can do his job better, send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616
.
Here's why ozzie got booed when he came to the mound. Lefties are hitting .167 off Politte this year with a .259 obp, lefties are hitting .256 off Marte with a .385 obp, .385. People are tired of Damaso coming into to face lefties when he clearly can't get them out just because he throws with his left hand.

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 01:55 PM
I can't blame him. I feel like that at my job right now.

I was also thinking a few weeks ago about what it must be like to be one of our players. I love the Sox, but some of you ****s make it so miserable for these guys that I don't blame them if they don't want to play here. You guys turn on them at the drop of a dime. Now before someone has diarrhea of the fingers and gives me some diatribe of how we aren't cub fans, read me out.

I'm not saying that you have to absolutely love everything about everyone and look at things through rose colored glasses, but you don't have to be unpredictable bi-polar venomous snakes either. This is nothing new. I got into an argument with a brilliant fan who was booing Frank Thomas in 2002. That seemed to be the norm back then. Forget all that he has done for this organization, I guess.

And *** are we doing booing Ozzie when he walks to the mound, etc? If all you mother ****ers think he can do his job better, send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616

I don't blame Ozzie one bit. We "fans" are quick to point the finger at JR in regards to why players don't want to come here. What about ourselves? Players for the Sox don't have a short leash, they are on choke collars with the fans. I suppose we should forget that they are human too. Yes, I know that they are pro baseball players, and we don't accept mediocrity, yadda, yadda, yadda, but christ how about a little slack to the team that has the best record in the AL.

Oh wait, I forgot. You're must all be buying into the "collapse" story. That's right. And going to the ballpark and getting on our players when **** isn't going our way is a great way to be supportive.

And we wonder why it is that the national media seems to have it in for the Sox so frequently. I would have to think that a casual observer of the local sports scene sees the output of a biased local media and the often over-negative crapola from the fans and thinks "man, this team must really be worth disliking". Negative vibes around a team create negative impressions for casual observers.

It's part and parcel of the same reason why the Cubs are nationally loved. That doesn't mean that we as Sox fans should take the Cub-fan extreme, but that's not a rationale for taking the opposite extreme either.

Realist
09-22-2005, 02:05 PM
*passes Ozzie the Pepto Bismol so he can take a pull and puts his arm around him*

*whispers in Ozzie's ear, "you bring in Marte again with the game on the line and I'm gonna choke ya*

HotelWhiteSox
09-22-2005, 02:05 PM
He is the manager, so he could/should do whatever he wants without caring about what fans think, but at the same time, the fans have their right to boo. The Sox have been crummy at home, bad in front of packed crowds (not saying there's a correlation, but those are the stats), and then even have some players criticize the fans when the crowds aren't packed. The fan is not stupid (unless you are the fan of the other team in Chicago), we have some of the smartest fans in baseball, they know what's going on, that's why they boo when Marte is about to be brought it or when they spend over $200 a seat on scout seats and get Ozuna, Harris, and Perez in their lineup. Fans should be able to show their displeasure, while the manager should do what he feels is right, but shouldn't be affected by the crowds. We have a conflict of interest when we have a manager who feels and does speak his mind whenever he should but then gets mad when a fan shows their honest opinion, especially after Ozzie has a history of criticizing our fans, including this year in postgames which has been overshadowed by wins.

I can't blame him. I feel like that at my job right now.

I knew Lou Piniella posted here

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 02:06 PM
Well once the nation hears these comments (ESPN) our fans will be marked as the worst in baseball with the best AL record. God this is bad for us.

Oh please, who cares what ESPN says. The Sox fans being the worst in baseball is the equivalent of saying ESPN is the best cable sports news.

Minnie Me
09-22-2005, 02:06 PM
I believe that the whole Ozzie quiting thing is just ozzys way of deflecting attention to himself instead of the team. Its all a big act, a big charade. I'm sure he loves pulling the media's chain.
Ozzie and JR are very close.

Realist
09-22-2005, 02:07 PM
I believe that the whole Ozzie quiting thing is just ozzys way of deflecting attention to himself instead of the team. Its all a big act, a big charade. I'm sure he loves pulling the media's chain.
Ozzie and JR are very close.

You may be right. That's the first thing I thought too.

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 02:11 PM
This is truely sad. I feel bad for OZZIE. He's right. The teams given us 91 wins and yet dumbass fans are still booing him. I will never boo Ozzie again

Oh please, Mr. Guillen. welcome to the world of sports. It's part of the territory being the team leader. High School football coaches deal with this on the weekend. Are we suppose to believe this changes at the professional level?

One time he got booed for taking out Bobby Jenks. I think he took it the wrong way. Fans just like to see him throw. That's all.

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 02:17 PM
For all of the hop-on-the-bandwagon media-types and fans, this is NOT news. Ozzie said this back in April. He said his ultimate goal is the World Series, and he said he told his wife he'd quit baseball if the Sox won the World Series this year. This has NOTHING to do with pressure during the pennant race, so, yes, this quote is being taken out of context.

Thanks for bringing that perspective. This article from PJStar (first I've heard of them) just seems like the usual anti-Sox propaganda.

If Ozzie quits, why should fans be the blame? I doubt Ozzie has managed enough games to even compare to how many times Torre has been booed or Yankee fans want him gone.

Pinella is available. I'm sure he's a hardend manager by now.

Andy T Clown
09-22-2005, 02:21 PM
I will now stand on my feet and cheer every time Crazy Carl hits a pop fly to the outfield if it makes Ozzie happy.:wink:

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 02:22 PM
Ozzie is a really good manager that has the potential to be a great manager. As far as I can tell, fans still love Ozzie. I, for one, would really hate to see him go.

Of course. He's a 2nd year manager and we can forget that. I like having him because he's an old school baseball player.

Early success always get a young manager in trouble. I'm sure most of you can remember when we wanted La Russa out of here.

wdelaney72
09-22-2005, 02:23 PM
In reality, Ozzie won't have to worry about retiring this year.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 02:24 PM
I can't blame him. I feel like that at my job right now.

I was also thinking a few weeks ago about what it must be like to be one of our players. I love the Sox, but some of you ****s make it so miserable for these guys that I don't blame them if they don't want to play here. You guys turn on them at the drop of a dime. Now before someone has diarrhea of the fingers and gives me some diatribe of how we aren't cub fans, read me out.

I'm not saying that you have to absolutely love everything about everyone and look at things through rose colored glasses, but you don't have to be unpredictable bi-polar venomous snakes either. This is nothing new. I got into an argument with a brilliant fan who was booing Frank Thomas in 2002. That seemed to be the norm back then. Forget all that he has done for this organization, I guess.

And *** are we doing booing Ozzie when he walks to the mound, etc? If all you mother ****ers think he can do his job better, send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616

I don't blame Ozzie one bit. We "fans" are quick to point the finger at JR in regards to why players don't want to come here. What about ourselves? Players for the Sox don't have a short leash, they are on choke collars with the fans. I suppose we should forget that they are human too. Yes, I know that they are pro baseball players, and we don't accept mediocrity, yadda, yadda, yadda, but christ how about a little slack to the team that has the best record in the AL.

Oh wait, I forgot. You're must all be buying into the "collapse" story. That's right. And going to the ballpark and getting on our players when **** isn't going our way is a great way to be supportive.

I'm pretty sure this sort of "sorry" treatment of players and managers happens in every baseball city, or at least those worth their salt.

Hangar18
09-22-2005, 02:26 PM
And we wonder why it is that the national media seems to have it in for the Sox so frequently. I would have to think that a casual observer of the local sports scene sees the output of a biased local media and the often over-negative crapola from the fans and thinks "man, this team must really be worth disliking". Negative vibes around a team create negative impressions for casual observers.

It's part and parcel of the same reason why the Cubs are nationally loved. That doesn't mean that we as Sox fans should take the Cub-fan extreme, but that's not a rationale for taking the opposite extreme either.

Cubs are nationally loved = Media oversaturation = Cubs nationally loved

LauraJ14
09-22-2005, 02:29 PM
I'm pretty sure this sort of "sorry" treatment of players and managers happens in every baseball city, or at least those worth their salt.


I didn't see it when I was in St. Louis, those fans know how to appreciate their players.

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 02:29 PM
I'm taking this whole article with a grain of salt. Y'know if anybody should know, Ozzie should know what it means to be a manager of a Chicago sports team. Especially the SOX! If he can't handle it, then get the flip out!! *** is this loser talk from the MANAGER!!!

Of A FIRST PLACE TEAM!!!!

IN SEPTEMBER!!!!!!

Sorry, but that's annoying. I find it hard to believe that Oz would be a Dusty style beotch.

Great post. But I wonder why he said this to the PJStar (located in Cub land) and not to the Chicago media if this was said recently. I think it's anti Sox propaganda.

kobo
09-22-2005, 02:31 PM
I can't blame him. I feel like that at my job right now.

I was also thinking a few weeks ago about what it must be like to be one of our players. I love the Sox, but some of you ****s make it so miserable for these guys that I don't blame them if they don't want to play here. You guys turn on them at the drop of a dime. Now before someone has diarrhea of the fingers and gives me some diatribe of how we aren't cub fans, read me out.

I'm not saying that you have to absolutely love everything about everyone and look at things through rose colored glasses, but you don't have to be unpredictable bi-polar venomous snakes either. This is nothing new. I got into an argument with a brilliant fan who was booing Frank Thomas in 2002. That seemed to be the norm back then. Forget all that he has done for this organization, I guess.

And *** are we doing booing Ozzie when he walks to the mound, etc? If all you mother ****ers think he can do his job better, send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616

I don't blame Ozzie one bit. We "fans" are quick to point the finger at JR in regards to why players don't want to come here. What about ourselves? Players for the Sox don't have a short leash, they are on choke collars with the fans. I suppose we should forget that they are human too. Yes, I know that they are pro baseball players, and we don't accept mediocrity, yadda, yadda, yadda, but christ how about a little slack to the team that has the best record in the AL.

Oh wait, I forgot. You're must all be buying into the "collapse" story. That's right. And going to the ballpark and getting on our players when **** isn't going our way is a great way to be supportive.
This is the best post I have ever read on this site. I agree with everything you said, it is us as fans that I think causes more damage than anything else. To boo a manager who has led us to 91 wins and kept us in first place all year long is ridiculous. It's easy to sit behind a computer and analyze what went wrong and what Oz should do, but that doesn't mean we have the right to boo and swear at the manager and players. Everyone is always worried about the way Cub fans act, yet sometimes us Sox fans have no class at all, and that is a shame.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 02:31 PM
I didn't see it when I was in St. Louis, those fans know how to appreciate their players.

So Cardinals fans never booed their players for performing bad?

daveeym
09-22-2005, 02:33 PM
I didn't see it when I was in St. Louis, those fans know how to appreciate their players. The sox wouldn't be getting booed either if they clinched already.

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 02:34 PM
Cubs are nationally loved = Media oversaturation = Cubs nationally loved

You're kidding yourself if you don't think the fans unconditional love of the team doesn't have a lot to do with it. Tribune company's powerful, but not THAT powerful.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 02:34 PM
This is the best post I have ever read on this site. I agree with everything you said, it is us as fans that I think causes more damage than anything else. To boo a manager who has led us to 91 wins and kept us in first place all year long is ridiculous. It's easy to sit behind a computer and analyze what went wrong and what Oz should do, but that doesn't mean we have the right to boo and swear at the manager and players. Everyone is always worried about the way Cub fans act, yet sometimes us Sox fans have no class at all, and that is a shame.

Overreact much?

Ozzie was booed for walking out to the mound with Politte on it, and Marte warming the pen. He wasn't being booed for being Ozzie Guillen, but because the crowd suspected he was going out there to change pitchers.

Why is this point so hard to understand? Sox fans love Ozzie; they may question his decisions, but IMO they've been more than supportive of him the past 2 years.

Why is everyone buying into the notion that Sox fans have "turned" on anyone? Sheesh.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2005, 02:35 PM
Palehose, Flight and all:

A few comments. It comes with the territory. That's why they are professionals, that's why they get paid the money they do. Now I am not advocating racial, four letter words or taunts about family members....that definitely crosses the line! But if you think Sox fans are bad try spending some time in such basitons of 'good taste' as New York or Philadelphia (and that includes the media...) and those teams have actually won something in the past 25 years.

The bottom line is this... EVERYTHING changes the moment the White Sox get to a World Series. Period. The attitudes of the fans, the perception of the media, everything.

Agree with it or not, the longer the Sox fail at what the object of the game is all about, especially when practically every other team in baseball has played in the Fall Classic in the last fifty years, the more the intensity coming from the fans, the more dislike from the media, the higher the frustration and the rage. Like I said it comes with the territory. If you want to change it...win something.

To the poster who commented on people getting sick or ill over this. Like I said elsewhere it's not for you or me to say what anyone should or should not consider a 'priority.' That's up to the individual themselves. You may think it's foolish and you may be right but that's not our decision when it involves someone else.

Lip

Frankly Missing
09-22-2005, 02:35 PM
PJSTAR is Peoria Journal Star. Peoria is a NL town, loyalties spilt between Cubs and Cards.

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 02:37 PM
Overreact much?

Ozzie was booed for walking out to the mound with Politte on it, and Marte warming the pen. He wasn't being booed for being Ozzie Guillen, but because the crowd suspected he was going out there to change pitchers.

Why is this point so hard to understand? Sox fans love Ozzie; they may question his decisions, but IMO they've been more than supportive of him the past 2 years.

Why is everyone buying into the notion that Sox fans have "turned" on anyone? Sheesh.

I don't think it's that single incident that's the issue, it's the general attitudes regarding this team. For whatever reason, Sox fans seem to be more vitriolic in their negativity, and to have more of a dark-cloud contingent. I haven't seen that in St. Louis, Cleveland, etc. Philadelphia is the only other town that comes to mind. Even the Red Sox fans, who almost criminally ostracized Bill Buckner don't seem to generally be as carniverously aggressive towards their team when it disappoints.

NOTE: I'm not trying to tell anyone how to be a fan, we all have a right to react as we think best. But I do believe that this has a significant impact in terms of how the team is viewed by more casual observers. So if you're overnegative and concurrently think the national media is biased against the Sox, look in the mirror.

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 02:37 PM
I didn't see it when I was in St. Louis, those fans know how to appreciate their players.

Duh. Do you think the same thing would happen at USCF if the Sox clinched last week and were going for the best record in baseball?

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-22-2005, 02:39 PM
PJSTAR is Peoria Journal Star. Peoria is a NL town, loyalties spilt between Cubs and Cards.

FYI - I work for a company baed in Peoria...if there's any split, it's not truly visible. The Peoria Chiefs are the affiliate for the Cubs. The 5 times I've been down there this year alone, there's been NO talk of the Cards. Ever.

I think slant, plus Ozzie possibly playing head games for the team to relax, drives this article.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 02:40 PM
I don't think it's that single incident that's the issue, it's the general attitudes regarding this team. For whatever reason, Sox fans seem to be more vitriolic in their negativity, and to have more of a dark-cloud contingent. I haven't seen that in St. Louis, Cleveland, etc. Philadelphia is the only other town that comes to mind. Even the Red Sox fans, who almost criminally ostracized Bill Buckner don't seem to generally be as corniverously aggressive towards their team when it disappoints.

I guess I don't see it that way. Sure, some people overreact too much when things don't go right, but I'd hardly label Sox fans as being some extreme nutcase of a fanbase like Philadelphia. If Sox fans are just generally more pessimistic than Cardinals or Indians fans, well, take a look at the franchise's historic lack of success, relatively. Can you blame them?

Norberto7
09-22-2005, 02:40 PM
I could understand if Ozzie was considering leaving if he did not have appreciation of his general manager or his players. But potentially leaving because of the lack of the appreciation from the fans? Gag me.

Hangar18
09-22-2005, 02:41 PM
You're kidding yourself if you don't think the fans unconditional love of the team doesn't have a lot to do with it. Tribune company's powerful, but not THAT powerful.

The Tribune calls is "fan dedication". Scientists call it anything from "Stupidity" to "Brainwashing"

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 02:42 PM
I guess I don't see it that way. Sure, some people overreact too much when things don't go right, but I'd hardly label Sox fans as being some extreme nutcase of a fanbase like Philadelphia. If Sox fans are just generally more pessimistic than Cardinals or Indians fans, well, take a look at the franchise's historic lack of success, relatively. Can you blame them?

I don't blame them, they have every right to be. But you shouldn't at the same time expect the team to be universally loved by those outside the city when they see that the team's own fanbase is so negative.

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 02:45 PM
The Tribune calls is "fan dedication". Scientists call it anything from "Stupidity" to "Brainwashing"

I'm not talking about WHY the fans are that way, I'm talking about the consequences of the fans being that way.

They may be brainwashed sheep, and for the most part I'd say they are. But much like how for the most part, people tend to gravitate towards happy people because that's more enjoyable than hanging out with gloomy ones, media tend to have more positive attitudes towards teams where the fans aren't so aggressively negative.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 02:47 PM
I don't blame them, they have every right to be. But you shouldn't at the same time expect the team to be universally loved by those outside the city when they see that the team's own fanbase is so negative.

People in other areas that don't follow the White Sox but only know of them through their record and BB2Nite highlights probably don't have any notion of Sox fans except as being white trash Ligue clones, so I couldn't care less.

Criticism of performance on the field, managerial decisions, bad baserunning/fielding plays, etc. GOES ON ALL THE FREAKING TIME. It's part and parcel of the job of being a professional athlete. As Lip said, as long as it doesn't veer into personal threats, I find nothing wrong with it, and nothing wrong with how Sox fans have treated this team this year.

I think Ozzie maybe was expressing some stress-induced frustration and probably didn't mean what he said. He may also have been trying to take pressure off his players.

But, if he really does want to leave after 2 years because of job stress, I don't think he's cut out to be a major league manager. That's my opinion.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2005, 02:49 PM
Flight:

With respect. The nature of the media today is to generate controversy. Controversy sells, controversy gets higher ratings which translates into higher advertising rates which translates into higher profits which is all the media giants care about.

Even in Chicago the media, particularly certain columnists have ripped and continue to rip the Cubs....if the media went easy as you suggest on franchises that have more 'positive' vibes (LOL) then this would never happen.

Positive / negative vibes have absolutely nothing to do with the media's coverage of a team. Profit margin's and rating points however do.

Lip

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 02:51 PM
Overreact much?

Ozzie was booed for walking out to the mound with Politte on it, and Marte warming the pen. He wasn't being booed for being Ozzie Guillen, but because the crowd suspected he was going out there to change pitchers.

Why is this point so hard to understand? Sox fans love Ozzie; they may question his decisions, but IMO they've been more than supportive of him the past 2 years.

Why is everyone buying into the notion that Sox fans have "turned" on anyone? Sheesh.

Yes. Some people fell hook, line and sinker for that article. Why should we care if some media think we are lousy fans. Do you think next season Reinsdorf will only sell tickets to fans who are not lousy?
You wouldn't need lousy or loyal fans if the Sox played in Fenway, Yankee Stadium, or Wrigley. Others fill those seats.

I guess some people missed that Bears preseason game when the fans of Indy booed the Colts 1st string record setting offense.

daveeym
09-22-2005, 02:52 PM
I'm not talking about WHY the fans are that way, I'm talking about the consequences of the fans being that way.

They may be brainwashed sheep, and for the most part I'd say they are. But much like how for the most part, people tend to gravitate towards happy people because that's more enjoyable than hanging out with gloomy ones, media tend to have more positive attitudes towards teams where the fans aren't so aggressively negative. Ah hogwash you turkey leg, the boo birds have been out at wrigley since before the allstar break. Johnny B has already whined twice as much as Ozzie has to the media about the boo birds along with the players on the other side of town. Winning divisions, pennants and world series once in awhile are the difference makers in how a team is viewed. Every fan base has it's share of pollyannas, dark clouds, eternal optomists, negative ninnies etc and then some have "history" and "beer gardens" that attract casual fans.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 02:54 PM
Ah hogwash you turkey leg, the boo birds have been out at wrigley since before the allstar break. Johnny B has already whined twice as much as Ozzie has to the media about the boo birds along with the players on the other side of town. Winning divisions, pennants and world series once in awhile are the difference makers in how a team is viewed. Every fan base has it's share of pollyannas, dark clouds, eternal optomists, negative ninnies etc and then some have "history" and "beer gardens" that attract casual fans.

Post of the day.

:thumbsup:

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 02:56 PM
Flight:

With respect. The nature of the media today is to generate controversy. Controversy sells, controversy gets higher ratings which translates into higher advertising rates which translates into higher profits which is all the media giants care about.

Even in Chicago the media, particularly certain columnists have ripped and continue to rip the Cubs....if the media went easy as you suggest on franchises that have more 'positive' vibes (LOL) then this would never happen.

Positive / negative vibes have absolutely nothing to do with the media's coverage of a team. Profit margin's and rating points however do.

Lip

I agree that it's all about ratings, but I dont' think the 2 are mutually exclusive. It's a lot easier for ESPN to be negative towards the Sox because they know the casual fan has only heard negative things and will nod their heads along like sheep. Also, recall Bob Howry's comments - is it surprising that guys like Brantley have similar attitudes and that that colors their commentary?

And I think the media's treatment of the Cubs is actually fairly light given the circumstances. In fact, I'd say the media has been more negative to the AL-best-record Sox than to the also-ran Cubs.

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 02:59 PM
Ah hogwash you turkey leg, the boo birds have been out at wrigley since before the allstar break. Johnny B has already whined twice as much as Ozzie has to the media about the boo birds along with the players on the other side of town. Winning divisions, pennants and world series once in awhile are the difference makers in how a team is viewed. Every fan base has it's share of pollyannas, dark clouds, eternal optomists, negative ninnies etc and then some have "history" and "beer gardens" that attract casual fans.

And if you note: there's been more negative Cubs coverage this year than in past disappointing years. Chicken or egg?

Look - I'm not saying people should brainlessly cheer on the team. I'm just saying that IMO how fans treat their own team spills over into how that team is perceived nationally. And for whatever reason, IMO the Sox have more than the usual share of dark clouds. Maybe it's for a good reason, but regardless - it has it's implications.

I'll leave it at that.

HotelWhiteSox
09-22-2005, 03:00 PM
You're kidding yourself if you don't think the fans unconditional love of the team doesn't have a lot to do with it. Tribune company's powerful, but not THAT powerful.

They're pretty damn powerful! (not disagreeing/agreeing with you, but I was surprised with how powerful) This is what they own, straight from their site:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3713/cubunemachine2gm.jpg

Frankly Missing
09-22-2005, 03:01 PM
FYI - I work for a company baed in Peoria...if there's any split, it's not truly visible. The Peoria Chiefs are the affiliate for the Cubs. The 5 times I've been down there this year alone, there's been NO talk of the Cards. Ever.

I think slant, plus Ozzie possibly playing head games for the team to relax, drives this article.

FYI The Peoria Chiefs began as a Cub single A, became a Card single A for many years before returning to the Cubs. It was a Cards club as recently as 2001, maybe 2002.

I know Pujols began with the Peoria Chiefs in 2000 and moved his way through the minors to Triple AAA Memphis by September.

daveeym
09-22-2005, 03:03 PM
They're pretty damn powerful! (not disagreeing/agreeing with you, but I was surprised with how powerful) This is what they own, straight from their site:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3713/cubunemachine2gm.jpg That needs to be made into a tag.

Jjav829
09-22-2005, 03:03 PM
Criticism of performance on the field, managerial decisions, bad baserunning/fielding plays, etc. GOES ON ALL THE FREAKING TIME. It's part and parcel of the job of being a professional athlete. As Lip said, as long as it doesn't veer into personal threats, I find nothing wrong with it, and nothing wrong with how Sox fans have treated this team this year.

I think Ozzie maybe was expressing some stress-induced frustration and probably didn't mean what he said. He may also have been trying to take pressure off his players.

But, if he really does want to leave after 2 years because of job stress, I don't think he's cut out to be a major league manager. That's my opinion.

Exactly! I thought Ozzie was more thick-skinned than this. Maybe Ozzie is just trying to deflect some attention away from the team and on to himself. But if he really feels this way, then he has a long way to go as a manager. Getting second-guessed by the media and "first-guessed" by the fans is all part of being a manager. If you expect fans to cheer when something good happens then you better damn well expect them to boo when something bad happens. It's all part of being a major league manager.

I like Ozzie. I like what he has done for this team. I like the energy, enthusiasm and attitude he has brought to this team. But this is Cub-like. This is something I would expect from Dusty Baker as he cries about how he hears free agents won't come to the Cubs because the fans are booing. I expect better than this from Ozzie. I would love to see Ozzie continue to manage this team and lead us to multiple World Series Championships. But if he really feels this way, well, Lou Pinella is just one phone call away.

Jjav829
09-22-2005, 03:06 PM
The past month or so is making me think that they may be right.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, we're the only fan group that would be negative if the team lost 12.5 games off their lead in 7 weeks.

I'm guessing you left some teal out of this because there is no other explanation for why you would think we have the worst fans in baseball.

:rolleyes:

daveeym
09-22-2005, 03:06 PM
And if you note: there's been more negative Cubs coverage this year than in past disappointing years. Chicken or egg?

Look - I'm not saying people should brainlessly cheer on the team. I'm just saying that IMO how fans treat their own team spills over into how that team is perceived nationally. And for whatever reason, IMO the Sox have more than the usual share of dark clouds. Maybe it's for a good reason, but regardless - it has it's implications.

I'll leave it at that. 1917

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 03:06 PM
Exactly! I thought Ozzie was more thick-skinned than this. Maybe Ozzie is just trying to deflect some attention away from the team and on to himself. But if he really feels this way, then he has a long way to go as a manager. Getting second-guessed by the media and "first-guessed" by the fans is all part of being a manager. If you expect fans to cheer when something good happens then you better damn well expect them to boo when something bad happens. It's all part of being a major league manager.

I like Ozzie. I like what he has done for this team. I like the energy, enthusiasm and attitude he has brought to this team. But this is Cub-like. This is something I would expect from Dusty Baker as he cries about how he hears free agents won't come to the Cubs because the fans are booing. I expect better than this from Ozzie. I would love to see Ozzie continue to manage this team and lead us to multiple World Series Championships. But if he really feels this way, well, Lou Pinella is just one phone call away.

All part of Kenny's master plan......2-years of Ozzie getting the guys in shape and then bring in the Hammer - Uncle Louie!

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 03:07 PM
And I think the media's treatment of the Cubs is actually fairly light given the circumstances. In fact, I'd say the media has been more negative to the AL-best-record Sox than to the also-ran Cubs.

Injuries to Pryor, Wood, Nomar pretty much gives you a free pass. To call the Sox losers last season would be insane when they lost Frank and Maggs.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 03:08 PM
One other thought: if this is a real, true, deepfelt plea/confession on Ozzie's part, how will he react to national criticism if the Sox make the playoffs and possibly advance to the World Series?

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 03:08 PM
Injuries to Pryor, Wood, Nomar pretty much gives you a free pass. To call the Sox losers last season would be insane when they lost Frank and Maggs.

That didn't stop anyone in the media, now did it?

PaulDrake
09-22-2005, 03:08 PM
The past month or so is making me think that they may be right. Sorry you feel that way but 88 years is a long time to wait. I never thought being a White Sox fan meant I had to be perpetually smiling sycophant. Not only that, but IMHO Ozzie is a lousy game day manager, and I'm not all surprised that he is unraveling.

HotelWhiteSox
09-22-2005, 03:11 PM
Ozzie and Comcast are in cahoots. CSN payed Ozzie to say this so the media would forget about their fiasco last night.

TaylorStSox
09-22-2005, 03:14 PM
Part of the thing that kills me is that the fans are attacking a team that overachieved. Most of us never thought we'd be in this position in the first place. We're in the first year of a two year rebuilding plan. I'm proud of the way this team's played. They've been in more wars this year than any other team in baseball. Yet, the fans tend to treat them like ****.

Another thing that I've always hated is the blind hatred for some players and the love of others. Aaron Rowand's beloved for some strange reason. In reality, he's been one of the least productive hitters in our line up.

There's no doubt that around the league there's a bad perception of our fans. The proof's in the pudding. We've signed one major FA in the last 10 years, Belle. While some of you will put 100% of the blame on JR's spending, the reality is that we've offered competitive contracts to players that just won't sign here. This is a beatiful metropolis. It makes no sense that they refuse to come here. IMO, alot of it has to do with the perception of our fans among players around the league.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 03:17 PM
Part of the thing that kills me is that the fans are attacking a team that overachieved. Most of us never thought we'd be in this position in the first place. We're in the first year of a two year rebuilding plan. I'm proud of the way this team's played. They've been in more wars this year than any other team in baseball. Yet, the fans tend to treat them like ****.

Another thing that I've always hated is the blind hatred for some players and the love of others. Aaron Rowand's beloved for some strange reason. In reality, he's been one of the least productive hitters in our line up.

There's no doubt that around the league there's a bad perception of our fans. The proof's in the pudding. We've signed one major FA in the last 10 years, Belle. While some of you will put 100% of the blame on JR's spending, the reality is that we've offered competitive contracts to players that just won't sign here. This is a beatiful metropolis. It makes no sense that they refuse to come here. IMO, alot of it has to do with the perception of our fans among players around the league.

Taylor, how many major FAs have the Cubs signed in the last 10 years?

Mohoney
09-22-2005, 03:17 PM
I believe that the whole Ozzie quiting thing is just ozzys way of deflecting attention to himself instead of the team. Its all a big act, a big charade. I'm sure he loves pulling the media's chain.
Ozzie and JR are very close.

I think you're right. With Frank Thomas out, we're one of the only teams that I can think of where our manager, and not any one player or clique of players, is the dominant public face of the team.

Ozzie has used this to his advantage quite a few times this year to keep his guys loose and prevent them from getting swarmed by the bloodthirsty media in this town that seems to delight in this Indians hot streak.

Jjav829
09-22-2005, 03:19 PM
Part of the thing that kills me is that the fans are attacking a team that overachieved. Most of us never thought we'd be in this position in the first place. We're in the first year of a two year rebuilding plan. I'm proud of the way this team's played. They've been in more wars this year than any other team in baseball. Yet, the fans tend to treat them like ****.

Another thing that I've always hated is the blind hatred for some players and the love of others. Aaron Rowand's beloved for some strange reason. In reality, he's been one of the least productive hitters in our line up.

There's no doubt that around the league there's a bad perception of our fans. The proof's in the pudding. We've signed one major FA in the last 10 years, Belle. While some of you will put 100% of the blame on JR's spending, the reality is that we've offered competitive contracts to players that just won't sign here. This is a beatiful metropolis. It makes no sense that they refuse to come here. IMO, alot of it has to do with the perception of our fans among players around the league.

I didn't know Dusty Baker posted on this board! How's it going Dusty? You and Darren doing good?

So now it's our fault that big free agents don't sign here? GMAB. :rolleyes:

PaulDrake
09-22-2005, 03:21 PM
I boo Ozzie every time he does something stupid. I've been booing a lot lately. I boo when he brings Marte in. I boo when he lifts a reliever who's been perfect just to get a rightie/rightie or leftie/leftie matchup (even when leftires are .300 against the left hander!). How many games got away from us because he had the B team in? How many games got away because the score was tied or we were down by one and Ozzie kept a struggling starter in just to give him a chance for the victory? I think the Sox have won 91 games in spite of Ozzie, not because of.

I've been a Sox fan all my life and I'm a full season ticketholder. I was disappointed when the Sox hired Ozzie as the manager and booing things he does that I don't like is one way I show them I don't like the job he's doing. Blindly cheering and approving of the moves a team makes isn't the only way to be a fan.

I know most on this board don't agree this and that's cool. I just wanted to say my piece. I agree with everything you said. I'm not sure that's good for you as I don't feel like I'm in the loop here either.

Deadguy
09-22-2005, 03:23 PM
I genuinely feel bad for Ozzie, but he needs to get thicker skin. People are inherently selfish and unappreciative. This fan base hardly deviates far from the rest of the fan bases around baseball.

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 03:26 PM
I didn't know Dusty Baker posted on this board! How's it going Dusty? You and Darren doing good?

So now it's our fault that big free agents don't sign here? GMAB. :rolleyes:

Say what they will, but coincidentally, free agents tend to sign either a)where the combined money/years is the greatest or b)in their hometown or place they've played their entire careers. I don't think fan support/interest has much to do with that. Heck - most players don't even live fulltime in the cities they play in, why would they care about fan support for the 81 home games and assorted in-season off-days that they're in town?

HotelWhiteSox
09-22-2005, 03:26 PM
Part of the thing that kills me is that the fans are attacking a team that overachieved. Most of us never thought we'd be in this position in the first place. We're in the first year of a two year rebuilding plan.

There's so many players we can't afford next year, I think the plan was to win now. At least start strong/contend for the division, then make a big trade in the middle of the year, but we played .700 ball and that wasn't needed.

91 wins is awesome, but you HAVE to put where they were in the 1st half and being 15 games up into the equation

daveeym
09-22-2005, 03:26 PM
Part of the thing that kills me is that the fans are attacking a team that overachieved. Most of us never thought we'd be in this position in the first place. We're in the first year of a two year rebuilding plan. I'm proud of the way this team's played. They've been in more wars this year than any other team in baseball. Yet, the fans tend to treat them like ****.

Another thing that I've always hated is the blind hatred for some players and the love of others. Aaron Rowand's beloved for some strange reason. In reality, he's been one of the least productive hitters in our line up.

There's no doubt that around the league there's a bad perception of our fans. The proof's in the pudding. We've signed one major FA in the last 10 years, Belle. While some of you will put 100% of the blame on JR's spending, the reality is that we've offered competitive contracts to players that just won't sign here. This is a beatiful metropolis. It makes no sense that they refuse to come here. IMO, alot of it has to do with the perception of our fans among players around the league. So which fans are you bitching about? The ones that don't show up or the 35k+ dark clouds? That's right blame the fans for everything.

:ozzie
Marte pitched poorly because the fans don't have his back mang.

:selljerry
How am I supposed to field a team without any fans?

:knue
What's a Sox fan? Oh you mean members of the Ligue and Dybas families.

:giantsnail
Local Team wins World Series page 6.

My bad, you're right the fans fault.

Frankly Missing
09-22-2005, 03:27 PM
It should come as no surprise Ozzie doesnt have the emotional or professional composure of other MLB managers.

We all know the heat Torre has taken from all sides, look at the beginning of the season for NY. I cannot remember Torre ever turning against the NY fans, he realizes it comes with the territory and just does his job.

It makes me sick and sad Ozzie has made these remarks. It further alienates the White Sox from the media and other fan bases that the Cub organization has so well orchestrated.

And it furthers the medias drive to make the Indians the darlings of the AL penant race.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 03:27 PM
Boers & Bernstein just said that Ozzie was on a national sports talk show a little while ago, and said he HATED the Chicago media and the "*******s in talk radio."

Ozzie Baker, nice to meetcha.

:rolleyes:

TaylorStSox
09-22-2005, 03:27 PM
Taylor, how many major FAs have the Cubs signed in the last 10 years?

I have no clue who the Cubs have signed. I don't follow the Cubs.


@ Jjav...

If you don't believe that the negative perception around this team factors into FA signings, then you're in denial. Whether the players are right or wrong is irrelevant. The idea that this is a ****ty place to play baseball is the reality. It's evidenced in the way that an overachieving team is treated.

billyvsox
09-22-2005, 03:30 PM
This acticle loses its credibility when he states "Travis Hafner is better then any 3 Sox players" ??

I've been watching the Tribe regularly the past month on the Extra Innings pkg, and prior to Sunday's game vs. KC he was in a like 3-40 slump with 20 k's. He was sitting vs lefties and being booed by home fans. He simply had a hot series, has a funky nikename and is one of Jim Rome's jungle boys, otherwise Konerko is much better offensively and defensively.

Besides, I think we do have enough to advance in the playoffs (if we make it), because we will be focused on situational hitting (somethinh the Tribe, Red Sox, and Yanks dont do), and will surely have a chip on our shoulder.

TaylorStSox
09-22-2005, 03:30 PM
BTW...

I love the way you guys have worked the Cubs into yet another discussion about WHITE SOX baseball.

FoulTerritory
09-22-2005, 03:31 PM
If Ozzie's comments were based primarily on the behavior of the crowd on Tuesday night -- especially the near insertion of Marte incident wherein the crowd booed when Oz came out to the mound -- then that is just not very smart. If he doesn't think they are getting enough love then he should have paid attention when we gave a standing ovation when the Sox took the field, and that the crowd was insanely loud the whole game (hawk said he'd never heard it that loud before). My point is, I don't think I've ever been at a Sox game where the crowd has been so emotionally expressive of their continuing loyalty and passion for this team. It was almost as if we were trying to tell the team that we ARE still with them, and behind them and excited, we've got your back, now go win the freaking division please.

Deadguy
09-22-2005, 03:32 PM
FYI - I work for a company baed in Peoria...if there's any split, it's not truly visible. The Peoria Chiefs are the affiliate for the Cubs. The 5 times I've been down there this year alone, there's been NO talk of the Cards. Ever.

I think slant, plus Ozzie possibly playing head games for the team to relax, drives this article.

The Chiefs have also been affiliated with the Cardinals in recent years. Both Rick Ankiel and Albert Pujols played for the Chiefs.

I would say that it is mostly a Cubs town, though. Cardinals are number two, while the Sox fans are nearly nonexistant. I've actually been told that I'm out of line for wearing White Sox memoribilia in Cubs territory. :rolleyes:

With the access to Sportschannel in the early 90s, I could watch the same amount of White Sox games and I could Cubs games on WGN. The Cardinals were just occasionallly shown on the local Fox affiliate for a very long time, which is why there really is not much of a split.

I remember when the local cable company was threatening to pull WGN from the lineup back in the winter of 1996, people were actually talking about moving across the river to East Peoria just so they could watch Cubs games during the season. There was such an uproar over this, it never came to fruition.

Baby Fisk
09-22-2005, 03:34 PM
Guys! Stop fighting! *bursts into tears* :whiner:

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 03:36 PM
BTW...

I love the way you guys have worked the Cubs into yet another discussion about WHITE SOX baseball.

I asked you how many FAs the Cubs have signed in the last 10 years in reply to this:
There's no doubt that around the league there's a bad perception of our fans. The proof's in the pudding. We've signed one major FA in the last 10 years, Belle. While some of you will put 100% of the blame on JR's spending, the reality is that we've offered competitive contracts to players that just won't sign here. This is a beatiful metropolis. It makes no sense that they refuse to come here. IMO, alot of it has to do with the perception of our fans among players around the league.

If FAs aren't signing with the Cubs, too, does that mean that there's a bad perception of Cub fans nationwide? No? Then maybe there are other factors that deter players from signing with the Sox, too. That's all I'm saying. It might be our historical lack of success, just maybe.

daveeym
09-22-2005, 03:36 PM
Guys! Stop fighting! *bursts into tears* :whiner: Hush up Cheese Stick.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 03:39 PM
Hush up Cheese Stick.

Pipe down, Turkey Leg.

:)

TaylorStSox
09-22-2005, 03:39 PM
I asked you how many FAs the Cubs have signed in the last 10 years in reply to this:


If FAs aren't signing with the Cubs, too, does that mean that there's a bad perception of Cub fans nationwide? No? Then maybe there are other factors that deter players from signing with the Sox, too. That's all I'm saying. It might be our historical lack of success, just maybe.

I'm not saying it's the only factor. Obviously, alot contributes to where a player is going to spend the next 5 years of his life. I'm saying that our perception definitely plays into the whole scenario.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 03:43 PM
I'm not saying it's the only factor. Obviously, alot contributes to where a player is going to spend the next 5 years of his life. I'm saying that our perception definitely plays into the whole scenario.

I would rank money, contract details, and chances of postseason success way, way ahead of the nationwide perception of the fans, as far as influences on players signing with the White Sox or not.

There's a reason I-Rod and Maggs are both Detroit Tigers now, after all.

DMarte708
09-22-2005, 03:59 PM
So, have I missed much spin yet on this topic?

No doubt several members have alreayd suggested his comments were done purposely to shift blame off his players.

What these quotes from Guillen have shown is how incapable he is of handling this club, in this town. It's absolutely selfish to consider retirement once you win a world series and leave 25 players behind.

OEO Magglio
09-22-2005, 04:02 PM
I'm not saying it's the only factor. Obviously, alot contributes to where a player is going to spend the next 5 years of his life. I'm saying that our perception definitely plays into the whole scenario.
You want to know why we haven't signed any big free agents lately?? Money, it's that simple. Look at this past offseason there were big name guys out there but we had a lot of holes to fill so instead of using the funds on one big name kenny spread it around and got solid players such as Dye, Aj, Iguchi, Hermy. I guess Jermaine heard of our perception considering he took less money to play here.:rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
09-22-2005, 04:03 PM
Taylor:

All things being equal regarding money and years (which I would argue the Sox often come up short on due to their own policies) free agents will go where they have the best chances to win.

Let's see.....Yankees, Braves, Cardinals, Astros, Giants, White Sox.

Yea I'll go with the White Sox.

Lip

Palehose13
09-22-2005, 04:04 PM
It would be nice if some of you would have comprehended what I wrote.

I never wrote anything about not booing your team, etc. IIRC, the only thing I wrote about booing was when I got into it with some pud for booing Frank Thomas 3 years ago.

My problem with many fans of this team is how reactive they are. For instance, Monday night..."we suck, Cleveland is going to win the divsion." Tuesday night, "we rock! Playoffs here we come!", Wednesday night: "No ****ing way this suck ass team is making the playoffs." Some of you guys change your minds/opinions faster than a pit crew can change a set of tires. It's tiring to read day in and day out and I can't imagine how the players feel with the types of emotions that are brought into the ballpark. Maybe they like playing on the road better.

For those that say it is like this in every venue, I have never experienced it in Milwaukee. Philly fans definitely have a reputation and sometimes I would put us up there with them(with the crap I have read here and stuff I have heard at the ballpark)...and that is NOT a compliment.

Just for ****s and giggles, I went back and tallied up our pre-season predictions that are here: http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=46940&highlight=Preseason+predictions

48 out of 75 posts thought the Sox would finish in first. Of those 48:

10 thought the Sox would have less than 90 wins
35 thought the Sox would have 90-94 wins
2 thought the Sox would have 95 -1 00 wins and
1 thought the Sox would have over 100 (101) wins.

Looking back at that, I have to ask...what is everyone bitching about? The Sox have met, are meeting or exceeding almost everyone's expectations.

I swear, I assumed that almost everyone here has played an organized sport before but with the way some of you guys react to things makes me question your mental toughness if/when you did/do play.

wdelaney72
09-22-2005, 04:07 PM
First of all, this story is BS. Ozzie's just trying to take some of the heat off of his players.

That being said, those of you saying "you feel bad for Ozzie", *****. Ozzie and the players deserve not one ounce of sympathy. They're paid a boat load of money to do their job. When they fail to do their job, they hear "boos" from the fans. When any of us do something wrong at our jobs, we hear about it. Anytime Ozzie or any of these players are tired of being "boo'd", I'll be more than happy to switch jobs and paychecks with them. I'm certainly not saying I could do a better job than Ozzie. I like Ozzie, and I like him as our manager. I just refuse to acknowledge any whining about being "boo'd".

Jjav829
09-22-2005, 04:09 PM
If you don't believe that the negative perception around this team factors into FA signings, then you're in denial. Whether the players are right or wrong is irrelevant. The idea that this is a ****ty place to play baseball is the reality. It's evidenced in the way that an overachieving team is treated.

Yes, this is a ****ty place to play, but not because of the fans. The idea that the fans holding players to a high standard is the reason why free agents don't sign here is absurd. It's that simple. How do you think free agents view New York fans? As some warm group that accepts whatever the players do regardless of how well they perform? **** no! Players realize that when they sign to play in New York they are signing to play in a place where they will be held to the highest standard possible. And yet they sign there. I wonder why. Could it be due to the big contracts they are offered, the great endorsement opportunities they have, and the fact that at least one of the teams (The Yankees) is the most successful franchise in the history of baseball?

We offer none of that here. This franchise has a history of losing, not winning. We can't offer players a great chance at a World Series. We can't offer them many endorsement opportunities, at least for the Sox. Those endorsement opportunities are usually given to Bears players, Bulls players and Cubs players.

And to top it all off with the biggest reason why we don't lure big name free agents, we don't offer them the best contracts. This organization has very little to offer except money. The only thing we can do to convince a player to sign here is offer them more money than the other teams are offering.

Oh, but I'm sure they don't come here because we boo our team when they are in the middle of a historic slide.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2005, 04:13 PM
Palehose:

I think the mood is turning ugly in a general sense because even though the team played above the expectations of many (most?), they are now so close to winning the damn thing that, playing over expectations, or 90+ wins doesn't cut it anymore.

The 1990 team played far above expectations, I'd argue even higher then this season but because after say, early September they simply didn't have a realistic chance of winning the division anymore, fans took the approach of 'well they had a hell of a year...' Plus they never had a large divisonal lead even when they were in first place.

I just don't think it is realistic to expect fans to 'settle' for that after coming within a whisper of a post season berth. The bar rightly or wrongly was raised because of the torrid first half. Plus what the local and national media would do to the franchise in the event that happened. (I know...who cares...but if you are a Sox fan, it's hard to have to hear that sort of talk...)

Just my opinion.

Lip

TaylorStSox
09-22-2005, 04:17 PM
Yes, this is a ****ty place to play, but not because of the fans. The idea that the fans holding players to a high standard is the reason why free agents don't sign here is absurd. It's that simple. How do you think free agents view New York fans? As some warm group that accepts whatever the players do regardless of how well they perform? **** no! Players realize that when they sign to play in New York they are signing to play in a place where they will be held to the highest standard possible. And yet they sign there. I wonder why. Could it be due to the big contracts they are offered, the great endorsement opportunities they have, and the fact that at least one of the teams (The Yankees) is the most successful franchise in the history of baseball?

We offer none of that here. This franchise has a history of losing, not winning. We can't offer players a great chance at a World Series. We can't offer them many endorsement opportunities, at least for the Sox. Those endorsement opportunities are usually given to Bears players, Bulls players and Cubs players.

And to top it all off with the biggest reason why we don't lure big name free agents, we don't offer them the best contracts. This organization has very little to offer except money. The only thing we can do to convince a player to sign here is offer them more money than the other teams are offering.

Oh, but I'm sure they don't come here because we boo our team when they are in the middle of a historic slide.


I'm not just talking about booing players. It's more of the kneejerk reactions.

Re: the booing... The only thing that truly makes me sick about being a Sox fan is the way that some have treated the second best RH hitter in the history of major league baseball.

Whether we win or lose, I'm going to be there Sunday giving a standing ovation to a team I'm proud of. They did more with less than I ever gave them credit for. Nearly every win has been hard fought. It's really no surprise that they're wearing out at the end. I hope that people look at the bigger picture.

I'll see them in the playoffs.

Madvora
09-22-2005, 04:18 PM
Palehose:

I think the mood is turning ugly in a general sense because even though the team played above the expectations of many (most?), they are now so close to winning the damn thing that, playing over expectations, or 90+ wins doesn't cut it anymore.

The 1990 team played far above expectations, I'd argue even higher then this season but because after say, early September they simply didn't have a realistic chance of winning the division anymore, fans took the approach of 'well they had a hell of a year...' Plus they never had a large divisonal lead even when they were in first place.

I just don't think it is realistic to expect fans to 'settle' for that after coming within a whisper of a post season berth. The bar rightly or wrongly was raised because of the torrid first half. Plus what the local and national media would do to the franchise in the event that happened. (I know...who cares...but if you are a Sox fan, it's hard to have to hear that sort of talk...)

Just my opinion.

Lip
You make a lot of sense there. The thing is that we have seen this exact team play very, very well. All of a sudden, they aren't doing that anymore and there's no reason why. As people have said on this board all season, "Don't expect them to play at a .700 clip all year." But, they have been playing like crap for months and we can't even blame this on injuries at all. We know they have it in them now and we're not getting what we have come to expect.
It's going to be very interesting how this stretch is remembered after the season is over. This will all depend on how they do in the playoffs or if they do make it to the playoffs. If they win it all, we'll all have a laugh about how they almost choked.

cheeses_h_rice
09-22-2005, 04:25 PM
PH13, you need to ignore the psychotic posters with the manic mood swings. There are always going to be fans like that who just don't keep a longterm, 162-game perspective.

As for getting down on players, I haven't had it in me to do a whole lot of that. I am disappointed with the year that Rowand is having, offensively (MVP my ass) and Pods' second half on the basepaths, and I am dismayed to see Burly, Garcia, and El Duque struggle in the second half, but overall, what's most frustrating is seeing the Indians chugging forward like an out of control freight train while we can't even score more than a couple runs a game.

Unregistered
09-22-2005, 04:26 PM
Apologies if this was posted already, but I'd imagine people are booing because of Ozzie's horrible bullpen management which is only magnified because the Sox are losing important games like the first one of the Cleveland series because of it. Ozzie got by the first half because most of the 'pen was pretty lights out, so he could play his stupid matchups or bring someone in who didn't really make sense and they'd usually find a way to get outs. Now Ozzie is making the stupid decisions and we're seeing the consenquences (i.e., bringing Marte in 3 games straight) - and fans are responding, IMO.

Flight #24
09-22-2005, 04:26 PM
As people have said on this board all season, "Don't expect them to play at a .700 clip all year." But, they have been playing like crap for months and we can't even blame this on injuries at all. We know they have it in them now and we're not getting what we have come to expect.


They're over .500 since the all-star break. They're over .500 in the month of September. September was 7 straight wins, then losing 5 out of 6(LAA/KC) and then splitting 6(MIN/CLE).

It's only by focusing on the losses that they seem like they're playing like crap. That and the fact that the Indians in the past 6 weeks are playing like the Sox did in the first 6 weeks of the year.

Lip Man 1
09-22-2005, 04:28 PM
Cheese:

Not to necessarily dispute what you are saying but the Sox have lost five games since September 9th where they have scored five or more runs. In the first half those are probably automatic wins.

Lip

Madvora
09-22-2005, 04:29 PM
what's most frustrating is seeing the Indians chugging forward like an out of control freight train while we can't even score more than a couple runs a game.
Another good point. Most of this would be taken lightly if Cleveland wasn't doing so well. They had to play at an almost impossible level to get themselves back into this thing and... they have.
I guess you can look at it this way... They had 15 games to make up on the Sox, and they still haven't done that. We were leading by 15, not 13, 12 or 11, but 15 games. We put ourselves that far ahead and it's still holding up.

Madvora
09-22-2005, 04:33 PM
They're over .500 since the all-star break. They're over .500 in the month of September. September was 7 straight wins, then losing 5 out of 6(LAA/KC) and then splitting 6(MIN/CLE).

It's only by focusing on the losses that they seem like they're playing like crap. That and the fact that the Indians in the past 6 weeks are playing like the Sox did in the first 6 weeks of the year.
You're right, it's exaggerated, but it's not just the record I'm talking about it's the individual play. The defense has been bad, the starting pitching has been bad. Pods can't steal a base anymore etc... etc.
They've become very streaky when this was a team that was built to be well rounded so they wouldn't go on any of these long slumps. That's what they were telling us earlier in the season when it seemed impossible to lose more than 3 games in a row. Now, who knows what's going on.

daveeym
09-22-2005, 04:45 PM
Palehose:

I think the mood is turning ugly in a general sense because even though the team played above the expectations of many (most?), they are now so close to winning the damn thing that, playing over expectations, or 90+ wins doesn't cut it anymore.

The 1990 team played far above expectations, I'd argue even higher then this season but because after say, early September they simply didn't have a realistic chance of winning the division anymore, fans took the approach of 'well they had a hell of a year...' Plus they never had a large divisonal lead even when they were in first place.

I just don't think it is realistic to expect fans to 'settle' for that after coming within a whisper of a post season berth. The bar rightly or wrongly was raised because of the torrid first half. Plus what the local and national media would do to the franchise in the event that happened. (I know...who cares...but if you are a Sox fan, it's hard to have to hear that sort of talk...)

Just my opinion.

Lip Best Lip post evah. :thumbsup:

Randar68
09-22-2005, 04:59 PM
This is truely sad. I feel bad for OZZIE. He's right. The teams given us 91 wins and yet dumbass fans are still booing him. I will never boo Ozzie again

Maybe because almost every "dumbass fan" realizes that bringing Marte into a close situation late in a game is a BAD idea...

The guys has handled the bullpen progressively worse as the season has come to a close...

He also seemed to think that using Timo in a leadoff Role and playing Blum, Timo, and Ozuna in the same game about 10 times in 2 1/2 weeks was a good idea... oddly, this coincided with us sucking the pipe and allowing the Indians to reel us back in.

When a team turns the switch off with 2 months to go and then has to turn it back on... it rarely turns out for the better...

wdelaney72
09-22-2005, 05:01 PM
Best Lip post evah. :thumbsup:

I'll also agree with Lip's statement. Furthermore, while I may not have "picked" the Sox to win the division this season, that doesn't mean it's not my expectation. As a fan who contributes to this team in terms of attendance, merchandise, and television/radio broadcasts, I expect this team to win the division EVERY year. If I didn't, I'd waste my time on the other team in town. On paper, a team that finishes around 92-98 wins, is acceptable. The reality is, this team has taken a what was a 15-game lead at the tail end of the summer and crapped all over it's leg. Part of that is the insanely hot streak of the Indians, but MOST of it is the team consistently going out there and playing BAD baseball. They have given us no indication of changing that come the playoffs. Any way you slice it (no matter how many wins they get), it's unacceptable.

DickAllen72
09-22-2005, 05:16 PM
I can't blame him. I feel like that at my job right now.

I was also thinking a few weeks ago about what it must be like to be one of our players. I love the Sox, but some of you ****s make it so miserable for these guys that I don't blame them if they don't want to play here. You guys turn on them at the drop of a dime. Now before someone has diarrhea of the fingers and gives me some diatribe of how we aren't cub fans, read me out.

I'm not saying that you have to absolutely love everything about everyone and look at things through rose colored glasses, but you don't have to be unpredictable bi-polar venomous snakes either. This is nothing new. I got into an argument with a brilliant fan who was booing Frank Thomas in 2002. That seemed to be the norm back then. Forget all that he has done for this organization, I guess.

And *** are we doing booing Ozzie when he walks to the mound, etc? If all you mother ****ers think he can do his job better, send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616

I don't blame Ozzie one bit. We "fans" are quick to point the finger at JR in regards to why players don't want to come here. What about ourselves? Players for the Sox don't have a short leash, they are on choke collars with the fans. I suppose we should forget that they are human too. Yes, I know that they are pro baseball players, and we don't accept mediocrity, yadda, yadda, yadda, but christ how about a little slack to the team that has the best record in the AL.

Oh wait, I forgot. You're must all be buying into the "collapse" story. That's right. And going to the ballpark and getting on our players when **** isn't going our way is a great way to be supportive.

Good post.....no.....great post!

starboy0
09-22-2005, 05:37 PM
The "PRESSURE" has been mounting for some weeks now unfortuneately.........
There were a couple times during the last few weeks where a couple of "big" wins wouldve alleviated alot of this, but the SOX did themselves no favors
by losing 2 of 3 to KC. I think that was the series turning point that got the SOX in a bad state of mind...

I've been saying the same thing. That 10-9 loss to KC was when I first really starting thinking that this thing could get away from us. This team has been over-achieving all year, due in part, to Ozzie's leadership. When I say over-achieving I do not mean we don't have talent and it is not a knock. Just that on paper we probably shouldn't have done this well. That is a testimony to our players playing thier hearts out and Ozzie providing great motivation.

This 2nd half there has been a "regression toward the mean" and we have have fallen back to earth. Pods can't steal (I don't think he is even close to 100% healthy after the injury) so we can't manufacture runs as easily and the starting pitching has fallen off.

The Monday and Tuesday night games against the Toons show we have heart to fight back; yet last night's game shows we just aren't the same team we were the first half. Something is just missing.

But I'll never boo the players or Ozzie for the success that they have had this year.

doogiec
09-22-2005, 06:10 PM
I've got to admit, its frustrating watching the manner in which some Sox fans claim to understand that the media is full of crap, but then repeat whatever the media tells them like its a fact just a few days later. Here's some examples:

Media Myth: The White Sox have sucked in September.
Fact: The Sox are 11-9 in September. Not great, but that same pace all season would equate to 89-90 wins, often good enough to make the playoffs.

Media Myth: The White Sox choked away a 15 game lead.
Fact: If you assume the Indians will win around 95 games this year, the Sox would have to win around 110 to maintain a 15 game lead. And the Indians 95 wins would come without much help from the Sox, who have done their part by going 11-5 against Cleveland. Reality is, the Sox could do nothing to keep the Tribe from winning that many games this year, and once that happened, there was no reasonable way for the Sox to win by more than a handful of games. Anyone who thinks this team should have won 110 games must be watching baseball for the first time this year. It just doesn't happen. When you have two really good teams in the same division, one team is not going to win by double digits. The ONLY reason the Sox had a 15 game lead was Cleveland sucked so bad the first half, again, not the Sox fault.

Media myth: The Sox will not make it out of the first round of the playoffs because they played poorly in September.
Fact: September play has no bearing on October play. Since 2000, there have been 35 postseason series. 16 of those featured teams with similar records in September (within a few games). Of the other 19, 12 were won by the team that had done worse in September, 7 by the team that was better. The last 20 World Series teams average a September record of .577, which the Sox are one game shy of at this moment. There is just simply no corrolation.

Cub fans repeat everything the read in the paper as fact. Sox fans should know better.

SoxSpeed22
09-22-2005, 06:13 PM
Just hit it as hard as it could be hit. Nice post doogeic. Cleveland's playing too well and we need to shut these people up by winning. Once Cleveland returns to Earth, this will blow over.

Deadguy
09-22-2005, 06:20 PM
Palehose:

I think the mood is turning ugly in a general sense because even though the team played above the expectations of many (most?), they are now so close to winning the damn thing that, playing over expectations, or 90+ wins doesn't cut it anymore.

The 1990 team played far above expectations, I'd argue even higher then this season but because after say, early September they simply didn't have a realistic chance of winning the division anymore, fans took the approach of 'well they had a hell of a year...' Plus they never had a large divisonal lead even when they were in first place.

I just don't think it is realistic to expect fans to 'settle' for that after coming within a whisper of a post season berth. The bar rightly or wrongly was raised because of the torrid first half. Plus what the local and national media would do to the franchise in the event that happened. (I know...who cares...but if you are a Sox fan, it's hard to have to hear that sort of talk...)

Just my opinion.

Lip

You're spot on Lip, as usual. What you see transpiring on this board right now is just people shifting their frustration and anger over what has been happening to this team on to others, ussually over rather trivial things.

That is why it is probably a good idea to just step off to the sidelines right now, and not post, before you get sucked into a pointless flame war over spelling mistakes and grammatical errors made three weeks ago.

People are generally very unhappy and bitter on these kind of boards, outside of the best of times when the team either has a 15 game lead or has the best record in baseball. Right now we are in the midst of something that could be historically embarassing to this franchise, that could be referred to decades from now.

Palehose13
09-22-2005, 06:20 PM
PH13, you need to ignore the psychotic posters with the manic mood swings. There are always going to be fans like that who just don't keep a longterm, 162-game perspective.

As for getting down on players, I haven't had it in me to do a whole lot of that. I am disappointed with the year that Rowand is having, offensively (MVP my ass) and Pods' second half on the basepaths, and I am dismayed to see Burly, Garcia, and El Duque struggle in the second half, but overall, what's most frustrating is seeing the Indians chugging forward like an out of control freight train while we can't even score more than a couple runs a game.

Unfortunately cheeses, there seems that the psychotic/manic posters out number all of the others.

I have no problem with venting frustrating, but many people don't seem to be able to put it in perspective like yo did right there. Most people seem to be, as somone else wrote, "knee-jerk" reactors.

Am I worried? A little bit. Am I frustrated with the way some of the games have been played? Of course, but a lot seem to take things waaaaaay over the edge.

BTW...my take on Pods is that he isn't healthy still (I know...big news, right) and to me it's just a huge coincidence that the about .500 streak began just about when he got hurt.

DickAllen72
09-22-2005, 06:23 PM
I've got to admit, its frustrating watching the manner in which some Sox fans claim to understand that the media is full of crap, but then repeat whatever the media tells them like its a fact just a few days later. Here's some examples:

Media Myth: The White Sox have sucked in September.
Fact: The Sox are 11-9 in September. Not great, but that same pace all season would equate to 89-90 wins, often good enough to make the playoffs.

Media Myth: The White Sox choked away a 15 game lead.
Fact: If you assume the Indians will win around 95 games this year, the Sox would have to win around 110 to maintain a 15 game lead. And the Indians 95 wins would come without much help from the Sox, who have done their part by going 11-5 against Cleveland. Reality is, the Sox could do nothing to keep the Tribe from winning that many games this year, and once that happened, there was no reasonable way for the Sox to win by more than a handful of games. Anyone who thinks this team should have won 110 games must be watching baseball for the first time this year. It just doesn't happen. When you have two really good teams in the same division, one team is not going to win by double digits. The ONLY reason the Sox had a 15 game lead was Cleveland sucked so bad the first half, again, not the Sox fault.

Media myth: The Sox will not make it out of the first round of the playoffs because they played poorly in September.
Fact: September play has no bearing on October play. Since 2000, there have been 35 postseason series. 16 of those featured teams with similar records in September (within a few games). Of the other 19, 12 were won by the team that had done worse in September, 7 by the team that was better. The last 20 World Series teams average a September record of .577, which the Sox are one game shy of at this moment. There is just simply no corrolation.

Cub fans repeat everything the read in the paper as fact. Sox fans should know better.


Another great post!

The Dude
09-22-2005, 06:28 PM
Wow. I feel bad for Ozzie. I didnt know he took it so much to heart. I'm not one of the boo-birds (leave that to the northsiders). The only person I booed this season was Magglio Ordonez. Could any of you imagine JM or any previous manager caring so much about our team?? I dont think so.
Ozzie stick around, we need someone like you managing our team, good times and bad!

Lip Man 1
09-22-2005, 06:32 PM
Sox Speed says: "Once Cleveland returns to Earth, this will blow over."Ummm when is that? November? :D: I mean time's running out in the regular season isn't it?


Palehose 13: I agree Pods is still hurt. Now I thought him going on the DL was supposed to help? If it hasn't, why was he put on it in the first place at a crucial time in the schedule? (N.Y., Bost. Minn.) A Pods at 50% is still better then Perez and Ozuna don't ya think?

It's ironic that the last two 'magical' seasons the Sox have had both were directly affected in the second half by injuries to key people...2000 and 2005. This franchise couldn't buy a good break if they wanted to.

Lip

RowanDye
09-22-2005, 06:34 PM
I'd feel a little more comfortable right now if we actually did have 92 wins like Ozzie and Crede kept saying Tuesday night. I also think this may just be Ozzie attempting to divert attention away from the team. As long as we keep playing .500 baseball we're in the4 playoffs.

BTW: I DON'T love being a loser, because the beer does in fact taste better when you win!!

antitwins13
09-22-2005, 06:39 PM
I'm sick and tired of Sox fans wanting to fire Ozzie saying how bad he is and how Jerry manuel wouldn't let this happen. That's a bunch of BS, but I did think Ozzie had more balls then this to let fans get to him.

HotelWhiteSox
09-22-2005, 07:15 PM
For those that say it is like this in every venue, I have never experienced it in Milwaukee. Philly fans definitely have a reputation and sometimes I would put us up there with them(with the crap I have read here and stuff I have heard at the ballpark)...and that is NOT a compliment.

I agree with KW's comment that this comes with the territory, especially when you play in cities like Chicago, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, etc.

But I did take your quote out of context, and I agree with you as well. I am talking about that it is okay for the people to boo and criticize (especially when the manager is allowed to speak his mind on everything), and I agree that the people who are on the rollercoaster act like they've never been through a full baseball season and that you shouldn't get too low after Monday or too high after Tuesday after taking everything into context. I actually felt good on Monday, I hated the result, but I saw a great (mainly by everyone) effort on Monday night (against the best team in the AL at the time) that I hadn't seen in a while and Tuesday gave me the 1st half flashbacks, a bad game on Wednesday is no reason to believe that the Sox can't match those efforts against two worse teams than the Indians.

Jjav829
09-22-2005, 07:26 PM
I agree with KW's comment that this comes with the territory, especially when you play in cities like Chicago, Boston, New York, Philadelphia, etc.

But I did take your quote out of context, and I agree with you as well. I am talking about that it is okay for the people to boo and criticize (especially when the manager is allowed to speak his mind on everything), and I agree that the people who are on the rollercoaster act like they've never been through a full baseball season and that you shouldn't get too low after Monday or too high after Tuesday after taking everything into context. I actually felt good on Monday, I hated the result, but I saw a great (mainly by everyone) effort on Monday night (against the best team in the AL at the time) that I hadn't seen in a while and Tuesday gave me the 1st half flashbacks, a bad game on Wednesday is no reason to believe that the Sox can't match those efforts against two worse teams than the Indians.

The problem with the part in bold is that this isn't just your run-of-the-mill rollercoaster baseball season. It would be one thing if the Sox and Indians had been battling it out for 1st place all season long. That's not the case though. We had a 15 game lead on August 1st. Going into tonight, September 22nd, we have a 2.5 game lead and it could be 1.5 by the end of the night. That's not normal! That's not something that every fan should understand as being part of the game. In fact, you know how many teams have ever had a 15 game lead at any point in the season and let that lead slip to under 5 games? Three. Two before the 2005 White Sox did it; The 1974 Phillies and the 1912 Giants. And I don't believe either of those teams let their lead get down to 2.5 games. This is a historic slide, the likes of which baseball has never seen before. So I can't blame people for being very edgy right now.

You can't just say, "Get used to it. These types of things happen in baseball," because the fact is that nothing like this has ever happened before. So I don't understand how anyone can say that Sox fans shouldn't be riding an emotional rollercoaster until the Sox officially clinch. We've already seen the Sox do something no other team has done, so I can see why people are very nervous about this team.

DaleJRFan
09-22-2005, 07:32 PM
The problem with the part in bold is that this isn't just your run-of-the-mill rollercoaster baseball season. It would be one thing if the Sox and Indians had been battling it out for 1st place all season long. That's not the case though. We had a 15 game lead on August 1st. Going into tonight, September 22nd, we have a 2.5 game lead and it could be 1.5 by the end of the night. That's not normal!

It may not be normal, but it is a reason to be thankful for the 15 game lead... imagine if we hadn't owned the Indians early on, cleaned house against KC, Detroit, the Twins... we'd be 4 or 5 out with the way the Indians are playing.

It's not that the Sox "BLEW IT" its that the Indians are that good to be able to make up 12 games in 2 months.

Palehose13
09-22-2005, 07:34 PM
Palehose 13: I agree Pods is still hurt. Now I thought him going on the DL was supposed to help? If it hasn't, why was he put on it in the first place at a crucial time in the schedule? (N.Y., Bost. Minn.) A Pods at 50% is still better then Perez and Ozuna don't ya think?

Lip

Hindsight, Lip. I would think that the consensus among Pods and the staff was that he would be better (even though not 100%). He has also confidence as a factor also, which in my experience is huge.

daveeym
09-22-2005, 07:35 PM
I've got to admit, its frustrating watching the manner in which some Sox fans claim to understand that the media is full of crap, but then repeat whatever the media tells them like its a fact just a few days later. Here's some examples:

Media Myth: The White Sox have sucked in September.
Fact: The Sox are 11-9 in September. Not great, but that same pace all season would equate to 89-90 wins, often good enough to make the playoffs.

Media Myth: The White Sox choked away a 15 game lead.
Fact: If you assume the Indians will win around 95 games this year, the Sox would have to win around 110 to maintain a 15 game lead. And the Indians 95 wins would come without much help from the Sox, who have done their part by going 11-5 against Cleveland. Reality is, the Sox could do nothing to keep the Tribe from winning that many games this year, and once that happened, there was no reasonable way for the Sox to win by more than a handful of games. Anyone who thinks this team should have won 110 games must be watching baseball for the first time this year. It just doesn't happen. When you have two really good teams in the same division, one team is not going to win by double digits. The ONLY reason the Sox had a 15 game lead was Cleveland sucked so bad the first half, again, not the Sox fault.

Media myth: The Sox will not make it out of the first round of the playoffs because they played poorly in September.
Fact: September play has no bearing on October play. Since 2000, there have been 35 postseason series. 16 of those featured teams with similar records in September (within a few games). Of the other 19, 12 were won by the team that had done worse in September, 7 by the team that was better. The last 20 World Series teams average a September record of .577, which the Sox are one game shy of at this moment. There is just simply no corrolation.

Cub fans repeat everything the read in the paper as fact. Sox fans should know better.

I agree with everything but number 2. The sox had a part in number 2 as well. For playing as well as they did in the first half and as crappy as they have in the last 2 months. They also had an 8? or more game lead on the entire league and that's in danger of going bye bye as well. If they blow the wc as well you can't poo poo it away as Cleveland being hot. Heck the same goes for the division, the sox had a hand in building that lead and losing it.

Palehose13
09-22-2005, 07:40 PM
Wow. I feel bad for Ozzie. I didnt know he took it so much to heart. I'm not one of the boo-birds (leave that to the northsiders). The only person I booed this season was Magglio Ordonez. Could any of you imagine JM or any previous manager caring so much about our team?? I dont think so.
Ozzie stick around, we need someone like you managing our team, good times and bad!

I stayed after the game and watched the press conference. I really couldn't hear anything, but the way he looked had a HUGE impact on me. Anyone else see him? I can't quite put my finger on the mood he was in, but that expression he had will be remembered by me for a loooong time.

Hendu
09-22-2005, 07:48 PM
It may not be normal, but it is a reason to be thankful for the 15 game lead... imagine if we hadn't owned the Indians early on, cleaned house against KC, Detroit, the Twins... we'd be 4 or 5 out with the way the Indians are playing.

It's not that the Sox "BLEW IT" its that the Indians are that good to be able to make up 12 games in 2 months.

Well, they haven't blown it yet...but if they lose the division, it will definitely not be solely because the Indians are playing good baseball. We've lost 9 of the last 13. If that's not blowing it, I don't know what is.

More telling that the 15-game August lead is the 9.5-game September lead that has evaporated. They picked the absolute worst time to go ice cold.

HotelWhiteSox
09-22-2005, 08:08 PM
The problem with the part in bold is that this isn't just your run-of-the-mill rollercoaster baseball season. It would be one thing if the Sox and Indians had been battling it out for 1st place all season long. That's not the case though. We had a 15 game lead on August 1st. Going into tonight, September 22nd, we have a 2.5 game lead and it could be 1.5 by the end of the night. That's not normal! That's not something that every fan should understand as being part of the game. In fact, you know how many teams have ever had a 15 game lead at any point in the season and let that lead slip to under 5 games? Three. Two before the 2005 White Sox did it; The 1974 Phillies and the 1912 Giants. And I don't believe either of those teams let their lead get down to 2.5 games. This is a historic slide, the likes of which baseball has never seen before. So I can't blame people for being very edgy right now.

You can't just say, "Get used to it. These types of things happen in baseball," because the fact is that nothing like this has ever happened before. So I don't understand how anyone can say that Sox fans shouldn't be riding an emotional rollercoaster until the Sox officially clinch. We've already seen the Sox do something no other team has done, so I can see why people are very nervous about this team.

Okay, I agree with that, and I'll give the Sox fans being on a low after Monday night after what's happened in the past months, but with all that mind, don't you think it was a bit silly to act as we were automatically postseason champions after Tuesday (and am not implying that you felt like that, but many at the game and here/other boards did)? I was happy about that game, I was there and it was a blast, but it guaranteed nothing except 2 down in the Magic Number and 1 up on the lead with plenty left. That was the main point of what I agreed on with PH

Beauty35thStreet
09-22-2005, 08:36 PM
I feel bad for Ozzie. I don't feel bad for idiots who lose all their money on the Sox and then trash him for cracking.

Hendu
09-22-2005, 09:15 PM
I don't know. I like Ozzie. I think he's a good person and has the potential to be a great manager. But I don't have much sympathy for him regarding the stress of this job, the media, reaction of fans etc. The guy played baseball here almost his whole career so he knew EXACTLY what he was getting into. And as popular as Ozzie is, most fans care more winning the franchise's firs World Series (or at least winning a playoff series) since 1917 than they do about Ozzie's feelings. He knows this isn't the Marlins, where fans don't really care what happens.

Winning also changes expectations of fans, media etc. If this is too much pressure, all he has to do is pick up the phone and call Joe Torre, Larry Bowa, Grady Liddle...heck, even Dusty. If he likes, he can even cross sports and talk to Wanny :redneck.

I hope he was just venting and can relax a bit because ithe nature of this job is stressful and fans and media will turn on you in a heartbeat.

mr_genius
09-22-2005, 09:44 PM
send your application here:

Kenny Williams
c/o Chicago White Sox
333 W. 35th Street
Chicago, IL 60616



I've been sending it for years, Ken Williams just doesn't take me seriously

lol

actually, i think Ozzie has done a great job as manager... but he needs to realize fans boo, he shouldn't take is personally.

Palehose13
09-22-2005, 09:58 PM
I've been sending it for years, Ken Williams just doesn't take me seriously

lol

actually, i think Ozzie has done a great job as manager... but he needs to realize fans boo, he shouldn't take is personally.

:D:

doogiec
09-23-2005, 12:15 AM
Duh. Do you think the same thing would happen at USCF if the Sox clinched last week and were going for the best record in baseball?

And would the Cardinals have clinched last week if the Indians and their 90 victories were in their division?

NO

kevingrt
09-23-2005, 01:46 AM
I'm not gonna lie, I vomited after tonight's game.

Does that make me a bad fan? Lets go fan raters out there on this message board.

Please guys!!! We all want the Sox to win! lets not get on everyones backs because we have different opinions of whats happening, and some people take it more serious.

As for Ozzie, I don't take the quitting after a WS ring a terrible thing. He probably didn't realize how much pressure could be on him. Now he just wants to win and get out. He is probably going to give it so much these next few weeks knowing this got to the press.

Even though I disagree with some of his moves, I love Ozzie and hope he can get us a WS this year. And you know what if he does... He has all the right reasons to go out on top.

BainesHOF
09-23-2005, 02:03 AM
Maybe because almost every "dumbass fan" realizes that bringing Marte into a close situation late in a game is a BAD idea...

The guys has handled the bullpen progressively worse as the season has come to a close...

He also seemed to think that using Timo in a leadoff Role and playing Blum, Timo, and Ozuna in the same game about 10 times in 2 1/2 weeks was a good idea... oddly, this coincided with us sucking the pipe and allowing the Indians to reel us back in.

You are correct, sir. Anyone who doesn't think Ozzie is a main culprit in our choke job needs to read the above.

BeviBall!
09-23-2005, 08:29 AM
You are correct, sir. Anyone who doesn't think Ozzie is a main culprit in our choke job needs to read the above.

Just to narrow it down... look at the blown games against the Royals and Angels. I throw in tonight as well becuase when you have Crede bunting in the clutch right now, you should be escorted out of the Cell. Win those three games and you have a 4.5 game lead.

wdelaney72
09-23-2005, 10:04 AM
Just to narrow it down... look at the blown games against the Royals and Angels. I throw in tonight as well becuase when you have Crede bunting in the clutch right now, you should be escorted out of the Cell. Win those three games and you have a 4.5 game lead.

I disagree. Crede got the bunt down. Runner was advanced. It the next batter does their job, game over. This is fundamental baseball and it wins ball games when executed properly. It was the right call.

BeviBall!
09-23-2005, 10:06 AM
I disagree. Crede got the bunt down. Runner was advanced. It the next batter does their job, game over. This is fundamental baseball and it wins ball games when executed properly. It was the right call.

I hate giving up outs in extras... especially when the one hot hitter we have is up. It's even a more ridiculous call when the ML leader in stolen bases is the one you have to sacrifice over.

Lip Man 1
09-23-2005, 11:16 AM
The major league leader in stolen bases can't run and admitted his confidence is shot.

Sox now 1-7 by the way in extra inning home games this season. :o:

Lip

TomBradley72
09-23-2005, 11:28 AM
Why we boo:

We're booing 46 years since a World Series appearance or a win at home in the post season. We're booing 88 years since our last championship. We're booing at the local and national media that has never believed in our team. We're booing because we've all dreamed of a memorable October...for the first time in our lives...and we're worried we're losing that. We're booing because we'll never hear the end of it from Cub fans who are our coworkers, family members, friends that we will be around every day.

We're booing because we have believed in this team all year. Completely.

We still do. We're just very passionate about the White Sox....

Sold out the ballpark on Wednesday....crowds have been standing and rocking the joint all week....but the team has delivered 1 win vs. 3 losses. As far as Ozzie goes....the pitching is not his fault. Hermanson vs. Jenks? Marte vs. Cotts vs. tiring starter? The guys are not coming through.

kitekrazy
09-23-2005, 03:17 PM
Taylor:

All things being equal regarding money and years (which I would argue the Sox often come up short on due to their own policies) free agents will go where they have the best chances to win.

Let's see.....Yankees, Braves, Cardinals, Astros, Giants, White Sox.

Yea I'll go with the White Sox.

Lip

Some of those policies come from being burned by overpriced free agents. The Rangers learned their lesson when they had A-Rod.

Skippy
09-23-2005, 03:24 PM
Geezus. Ozzie is falling apart more than the team. Get it together, man. And please start handling the pitching better.

Why are we pitching McCarthy against Santana?

Better McCarthy than el poopy.

McCarthy pitched a beautiful ball game.

Bobby Jenks is not a good pitcher when the pressure's on.

Still in 1st, still in 1st, still in 1st....

kitekrazy
09-23-2005, 03:32 PM
And would the Cardinals have clinched last week if the Indians and their 90 victories were in their division?

NO

The Cardianls have been exactly playing lame baseball for 2 months now, have they? Duh.No!

kitekrazy
09-23-2005, 03:34 PM
Media myth: The Sox will not make it out of the first round of the playoffs because they played poorly in September.
Fact: September play has no bearing on October play. Since 2000, there have been 35 postseason series. 16 of those featured teams with similar records in September (within a few games). Of the other 19, 12 were won by the team that had done worse in September, 7 by the team that was better. The last 20 World Series teams average a September record of .577, which the Sox are one game shy of at this moment. There is just simply no corrolation.


Great info. Where did you find this?

kitekrazy
09-23-2005, 03:39 PM
Bobby Jenks is not a good pitcher when the pressure's on.


He's rookie put in the closer's role. What do you expect. Not every rookie pitcher is doing what McCarthy is doing right now. He may come down to earth eventually.

doogiec
09-23-2005, 08:08 PM
The Cardianls have been exactly playing lame baseball for 2 months now, have they? Duh.No!

The Cardinals haven't played a team with a winning record since September 4th. They've played a grand total of three games in September against over .500 teams. And they've won 11 games in September. Exactly the same as the "catastrophic collapse" of the White Sox, who have played 11 games against winning ball clubs, with 11 wins for the month. All this information is readily available to any fan who's not so lazy that they get their information from Murphy or Mariotti.

Cleveland would have gained the exact same amount of ground against St Louis as they did against the Sox in September. Strange, I still don't hear the St Louis fans giving the Cards crap, do I? Where's the booing at Busch?

Duh.

doogiec
09-23-2005, 08:13 PM
Great info. Where did you find this?

I actually did the research myself. www.baseball-reference.com (http://www.baseball-reference.com) has a wealth of information, and makes it fairly easy to figure stuff like that out.

For years I've been hearing the theory about the hot September teams being the ones to watch out for. And it just seemed to me that it wasn't often working out that way, so I decided to kill an hour and do the research. Turned out my gut feeling was correct. As a matter of fact, the more you compare regular season performance of any kind to postseason performance, you realize that the playoffs, as currently designed, are a complete crapshoot. I haven't been able to find anything that can predict postseason success or failure. It looks just like a series of coin flips.

I'm convinced that anyone who claims to be able to predict the postseason is simply full of crap.

doogiec
09-23-2005, 08:19 PM
He's rookie put in the closer's role. What do you expect. Not every rookie pitcher is doing what McCarthy is doing right now. He may come down to earth eventually.

In my opinion, pushing Jenks into the closer role is the worst move Ozzie has made all season. No rookie, especially one who spent half the year in AA, should be forced into that role in a tight pennant race. Politte has earned that role, has experience, and should be the closer despite not being the prototypical closer. Jenks should be the guy that gets called in the seventh or eighth to face one or two batters that normally struggle against fast ball pitchers. Thats it.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-23-2005, 08:20 PM
...

I'm convinced that anyone who claims to be able to predict the postseason is simply full of crap.

Johnny Mostil did a regression analysis and came to the exact same conclusion. His data is incomplete so far to be considered statistically significant, but the correlation since the inception of the wild card in 1995 is below zero.

Of course this information won't keep a certain faction of Sox Fans from searching far and wide for "proof" the Sox are doomed.

kitekrazy
09-24-2005, 12:35 PM
Cleveland would have gained the exact same amount of ground against St Louis as they did against the Sox in September. Strange, I still don't hear the St Louis fans giving the Cards crap, do I? Where's the booing at Busch?

Duh.

You're trying to replace fantasy with reality. They CLINCHED! They are not 1 1/2 games in the lead. Do you think Card fans really care about the team's record in Sept right now?
Of course there's no booing at Busch. What's so difficult for you understand? Make a hypothesis all you want.

kitekrazy
09-24-2005, 12:37 PM
I'm convinced that anyone who claims to be able to predict the postseason is simply full of crap.

That's for sure. When was the last time the team with the best record in baseball won the series?

kitekrazy
09-24-2005, 12:57 PM
Anyone else see this in Ozzie's post game interviews? He seems to attack the fans. This is not a wise thing to do. Eventually you have the media take sides, then the owner. Ditka would do this but I wonder how long he would last if the Bears did not win a Superbowl. I think you can get away with a lot of you win, but 92 games in Sept. is a little premature right to call it a success for most fans. A World Series victory, he'll be a god.

He has to take the good with the bad. Sure he'll get booed for walking out to the mound. But what about the noise of the fans after every pitch, every play? I think the noise from Tues. game is floating over Lake Michigan ready to land in Detroit after making it's way over to the North Side making other Chicagoan's quite jealous.

I find it bothersome that some fans now feel they are part to blame because they booed. They now share responsibility if the team fails.

Ozzie has enough experience to know the fan's reaction is part of the game. But what we see here is his lack of managerial experience which should not be taken out the Dusty Baker book on managing.

At least give the fans some kudos for their energy at the games.

You can't fire fans.

jenn2080
09-29-2005, 09:46 AM
:o: White Sox "fans" booed Ozzie when he first returned to Comiskey in a visitor's uniform as a player. That disgusted me so greatly that I actually dumped the Sox for a year or so, becoming a Mets fan. (My thinking is that being a fan of a team does not mean being a fan of the players, who change every year, or of the logo, but is based on shared experience and aspirations with a community of other fans. When you stop feeling like a member of that community you stop feeling like a fan.) I canNOT believe Sox fans are booing Ozzie this year. What the heck is wrong with people? I can't tell you how angry that makes me.

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Like the people in the postings before this one I dont personally think that anyone is booing him. I have yet to attend a game where they booed him. I have however been to games when the were booing people like Marte. Someone needs to reassure Oz that know one is booing him just his closing pitchers.