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Randar68
09-21-2005, 11:49 AM
That Aaron Rowand is average defensively? The flare into short center when Politte was in he stepped back and froze IIRC, and then on the ball hit right at him, he again misplayed it.

I know that the ball smoked right at you is the hardest ball to read for a CF'er, but the guy manages to misplay them a majority of the time whether they're in front of him or over his head. (and making the play in the end doesn't dissolve one of still having made a bad/wrong read)

We're damn lucky neither mis-play cost us that game last night.

Rocky Soprano
09-21-2005, 11:50 AM
As soon as it happened, I thought about Randar yelling:


ROWAND TAKES BAD ROUTES!

Risk
09-21-2005, 11:54 AM
That Aaron Rowand is average defensively? The flare into short center when Politte was in he stepped back and froze IIRC, and then on the ball hit right at him, he again misplayed it.

I know that the ball smoked right at you is the hardest ball to read for a CF'er, but the guy manages to misplay them a majority of the time whether they're in front of him or over his head. (and making the play in the end doesn't dissolve one of still having made a bad/wrong read)

We're damn lucky neither mis-play cost us that game last night.

After that happened, I knew that you were going to address this sometime today. I'm surprised it took you this long.:redneck

Risk

MsSoxVixen22
09-21-2005, 11:55 AM
That Aaron Rowand is average defensively? The flare into short center when Politte was in he stepped back and froze IIRC, and then on the ball hit right at him, he again misplayed it.

I know that the ball smoked right at you is the hardest ball to read for a CF'er, but the guy manages to misplay them a majority of the time whether they're in front of him or over his head. (and making the play in the end doesn't dissolve one of still having made a bad/wrong read)

We're damn lucky neither mis-play cost us that game last night.


Whoa whoa whoa....that was one of few f-ups Aaron has had. He knew he f'ed up and his "mistakes" are few and far b/w. Let's leave Aaron alone-how may times has Aaron made great plays? Yeah, I think we shoul trade Aaron!

Randar68
09-21-2005, 12:00 PM
As soon as it happened, I thought about Randar yelling:


ROWAND TAKES BAD ROUTES!

LOL... Most people only notice when it is something as egregious as what happenned yesterday, but he does it constantly, rounds off balls, circles the wagons, and people turn a blind eye. It's the primary reason why so many of the plays he does make look so damned hard.

I admit that he has improved immensely from when he first started playing CF for the Sox. He's better at taking control of the OF and on getting his feet and body in position to throw. However, he still rounds off his routes and still misplays a lot of balls that are hit at him. And again, making the pay in the end or not does not dissolve you of making the wrong read, it just means you got lucky that time...

I have laid off him most of the year, but that was one of his higher-profile blunders, and thought maybe it was the proper time to bring it up here. I've avoided discussing it here because it's obvious some people are too sensitive about certain players to discuss them objectively.

Wondered what the reaction would have been had that cost them the game...

daveeym
09-21-2005, 12:03 PM
What angered me most about that play was not that he misread it but afterwards he floated back on the ball.

ja1022
09-21-2005, 12:04 PM
I'll give him a pass on the flair in front, but a gold-glover makes that play in the ninth, in that game, in that situation.

ja1022
09-21-2005, 12:05 PM
What angered me most about that play was not that he misread it but afterwards he floated back on the ball.

...and turned the wrong way.

Deuce
09-21-2005, 12:08 PM
Eveyone makes a big mistake now and then. If it had cost us the game, I would have been really bummed. However, I would be really bummed if we lost the game period, whether off of an error or a hit. A loss is a loss.

Aaron has been making it work all year long. Sorry Randar, but I see no reason to change my opinion off of one play and ignore the many others where he made it look easy.

Deuce

DaveIsHere
09-21-2005, 12:10 PM
Randar are you smoking the pipe or have you not watched Aaron play Centerfield all year saving runs?

StillMissOzzie
09-21-2005, 12:27 PM
As soon as it happened, I thought about Randar yelling:


ROWAND TAKES BAD ROUTES!

Me too. I wonder what the over/under in nanoseconds was for a Randar response.

BTW, how's that Todd Helton trade sizing up yet?

SMO
:D:

Randar68
09-21-2005, 12:45 PM
Randar are you smoking the pipe or have you not watched Aaron play Centerfield all year saving runs?

Watched him all year take bad routes. Heck, did it all year last year too. Been called crazy many times for saying it, but people just refuse to admit it. It is there if you want to pay close enough attention to see it.

He had a GREAT series in NY, but he has misplayed plenty of balls he should not have for me to say, "I'll give him a pass on one play"...

Again, I've noticed more than a few bad misplays and said nothing throughout the course of the season, but this was a MUST WIN game and those misplays both nearly cost us that game. Certainly he hasn't been as bad as Pods, but he's not been what some people and Hawk have made him out to be.

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-21-2005, 12:46 PM
As soon as it happened, I thought about Randar yelling:


ROWAND TAKES BAD ROUTES!

I said out loud, "Where's Randar when you really need him?"

SpartanSoxFan
09-21-2005, 12:50 PM
Does that series at Yankee Stadium mean ANYTHING to you???

Rowand's defense alone allowed us to take 2 of 3 there.

Ask A-Rod if he thinks Rowand is a decent defensive player...:cool:

Randar68
09-21-2005, 12:54 PM
Ask A-Rod if he thinks Rowand is a decent defensive player...:cool:

I wouldn't disagree if that's all we were arguing. You're right, he's just average, aka "decent"...

wdelaney72
09-21-2005, 12:56 PM
:threadsucks


Yes, he made a mistake and it came at a bad time. The ball was hit very hard and reading that ball is the most diffiicult play for a CF. If Aaron Rowand is average defensively, I'd like to know who is better. I'll give you Jim Edmonds and then sit patiently as I listen to the crickets chirp in silence.

Hitmen77
09-21-2005, 12:57 PM
That Aaron Rowand is average defensively? The flare into short center when Politte was in he stepped back and froze IIRC, and then on the ball hit right at him, he again misplayed it.

I know that the ball smoked right at you is the hardest ball to read for a CF'er, but the guy manages to misplay them a majority of the time whether they're in front of him or over his head. (and making the play in the end doesn't dissolve one of still having made a bad/wrong read)

We're damn lucky neither mis-play cost us that game last night.

Funny how we don't hear from you when Aaron makes great game-saving plays - which he has done several times this year.

Do you have a suggested better alternative to playing Rowand in center? Maybe we should have gone for broke and traded Brandon McCarthy for Griffey!

voodoochile
09-21-2005, 01:01 PM
Whoa whoa whoa....that was one of few f-ups Aaron has had. He knew he f'ed up and his "mistakes" are few and far b/w. Let's leave Aaron alone-how may times has Aaron made great plays? Yeah, I think we shoul trade Aaron!

Language filter violation. Since it is late in the season, I am only giving you a 3 day rip. One final time... DON'T try and evade the filters, just type the swear word. The server will replace it with stars...

kobo
09-21-2005, 01:02 PM
Watched him all year take bad routes. Heck, did it all year last year too. Been called crazy many times for saying it, but people just refuse to admit it. It is there if you want to pay close enough attention to see it.

He had a GREAT series in NY, but he has misplayed plenty of balls he should not have for me to say, "I'll give him a pass on one play"...

Again, I've noticed more than a few bad misplays and said nothing throughout the course of the season, but this was a MUST WIN game and those misplays both nearly cost us that game. Certainly he hasn't been as bad as Pods, but he's not been what some people and Hawk have made him out to be.
Maybe you should go and show him how to play the position, since you seem to know everything he is doing wrong. Heck, maybe the White Sox should sign you for the rest of the season!!!

Paulwny
09-21-2005, 01:04 PM
Tribe announcer's(?) comment, ~ Rowand has to realize that a pitch traveling greater than 96 mph, even if hit off the end of the bat, is going to travel. In a game of this magnitude he absolutely has to know this.

Great call by the announcer on Crede's hr, I was surprized by his emotion,
"Hit deep to left, this gaaaaaame is oooooooover !!!!!!!.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 01:05 PM
Funny how we don't hear from you when Aaron makes great game-saving plays - which he has done several times this year.

Do you have a suggested better alternative to playing Rowand in center?

too late to do anything now. Brian Anderson will look pretty good out there next year. Rowand makes some great plays, makes many other relatively routine ones LOOK great, and then makes crucial ones look like Barny Fife. Go to a freaking game and watch Aaron's drifting routes, circling the wagons in the gaps, turning the wrong way on balls, etc etc...


Maybe we should have gone for broke and traded Brandon McCarthy for Griffey!

You're right, we certainly wouldn't have been a better team if we had added Griffey, I mean, where would he have played?

Thanks for sharing, Hawk...



Sorry, guys, but I want someone who is actually a CF'er playing CF. Rowand is a corner OF'er playing CF still. You're right, though, we should all be content with a .750 OPS CF'er who makes every play look like a quadruple bypass.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 01:07 PM
Maybe you should go and show him how to play the position, since you seem to know everything he is doing wrong. Heck, maybe the White Sox should sign you for the rest of the season!!!

Yeah, sorry to think for myself. I guess you can't critique a player unless you're better than them, right? Good lord is that stupid reasoning.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 01:08 PM
I'll give you Jim Edmonds and then sit patiently as I listen to the crickets chirp in silence.

Rowand isn't even the best CF'er in this series.

RichFitztightly
09-21-2005, 01:08 PM
Yes, he made a mistake and it came at a bad time. The ball was hit very hard and reading that ball is the most diffiicult play for a CF. If Aaron Rowand is average defensively, I'd like to know who is better. I'll give you Jim Edmonds and then sit patiently as I listen to the crickets chirp in silence.

Don't say Jim Edmonds. He's the most over-rated player in the game. You want better center fielders, I'll give you Torii Hunter, Andrew Jones, and Griffey just off the top of my head.

Just to be clear, I don't think Rowand sucks. I think he's pretty good. Just not as good as people here make him out to be. It is inexcusable to come in on a line drive then have to hustle back just to watch it go over your head. Hell, I tell the kids in little league to start back on a ball. It's a lot easier to come in.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 01:11 PM
Don't say Jim Edmonds. He's the most over-rated player in the game. You want better center fielders, I'll give you Torii Hunter, Andrew Jones, and Griffey just off the top of my head.

Just to be clear, I don't think Rowand sucks. I think he's pretty good. Just not as good as people here make him out to be. It is inexcusable to come in on a line drive then have to hustle back just to watch it go over your head. Hell, I tell the kids in little league to start back on a ball. It's a lot easier to come in.

Hell, the Mets have 2 CF'ers better than Aaron Rowand.

And your last point is the most crucial... he goes back on a ball that is a looping shallow fly ball... excuseable because he goes back first to prevent it from going over his head... But THEN he starts in on a rising liner...

daveeym
09-21-2005, 01:16 PM
But THEN he starts in on a rising liner... Again that wasn't his big mistake, his big mistake was then floating back on the ball, he still should have easily made that play after breaking in.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 01:21 PM
Again that wasn't his big mistake, his big mistake was then floating back on the ball, he still should have easily made that play after breaking in.

True, but that was the second major mistake on the play... I didn't see the replay enough to be able to judge that part of it...

And again, I'm not saying he sucks, just that most here have and do over-value him, especially his defense...

Rocky Soprano
09-21-2005, 01:25 PM
I don't see the big problem with Randar stating the truth.

Yeah most of us don't want to hear it and will refuse to agree because of our love for Rowand.

My brother is a HUGE Rowand fan, but even he agreed with Randar's comments.

Rowand's work ethic is wonderful, his glove at times is not.

longshot7
09-21-2005, 01:25 PM
I have to disagree with you Randar. In past years, I would totally agree about Rowand being below-average defensively in CF, but this year, he's been Gold-Glove caliber. Now last night, I'll agree he had a terrible game (the sac fly notwithstanding) but overall, he's made some great reads and catches out there this year.

He may not win, but he'll definitely get some votes for Gold Gloves.

Hangar18
09-21-2005, 01:29 PM
Randar brings up a good point, but I have to disagree ....... he may not have been the best at first, but hes certainly come a loooooong way playing in CF since. That was a bad play ......... Im glad he wasnt the goat.

voodoochile
09-21-2005, 01:31 PM
True, but that was the second major mistake on the play... I didn't see the replay enough to be able to judge that part of it...

And again, I'm not saying he sucks, just that most here have and do over-value him, especially his defense...

I agree and the first thing I thought of when I saw the replay was "That's as bad an example of drifting with the baseball as I've seen in a while. He should have made that play, period."

When his OPS was over .900 last season, it didn't matter as much with him having come dramatically down to Earth this year offensively, the defensive mistakes just aren't as easy to overlook.

I sort of figured he would have a regression toward the norm this year offensively and said as much early in the season, but .741 OPS with a slightly below league average OBP, few walks and over 110 K's (9/2 K/BB ratio), he just isn't spectacular enough to be considered irreplaceable.

Yeah, he had a great series against the Yankees. So what? He also has a grand total of 3 assissts this season.

He's an average player who has unspectacular power and SB numbers. One of those should stand out if he is going to play CF full time...

Hangar18
09-21-2005, 01:36 PM
True, but that was the second major mistake on the play... I didn't see the replay enough to be able to judge that part of it...


He broke in .........and took a painful moment to realize it was sailing over his head. I think he floated back in order to keep an eye on the ball and NOT lose track. What people arent saying though, was how HUGE that was. Wheter by design or by default, Rowand basically DEKED Peralta into thinking he was going to catch it. If Rowand turns his back to go for that ball, Peralta continues past 3rd and home. Granted, he still scored on the groundout, but we still had a chance to get out of that jam. I actually give Rowand credit for remembering the recipe for Lemonade when given Lemons ......

voodoochile
09-21-2005, 01:39 PM
He broke in .........and took a painful moment to realize it was sailing over his head. I think he floated back in order to keep an eye on the ball and NOT lose track. What people arent saying though, was how HUGE that was.
He basically DEKED Peralta into thinking he was going to catch it. If Rowand turns his back to go for that ball, Peralta continues past 3rd and home. Granted, he still scored on the groundout, but we still had a chance to get out of that jam. I actually give Rowand credit for making the best of a bad spot ......

You honestly believe he deked Peralta on purpose? :?:

I have a REAL hard time accepting that line of reasoning. I think he just got so badly faked, he faked the runner too, sort of like a batter watching a perfect curve break back over the center of the plate while standing like a dimestore jndjan and the ump being so shocked he forgets to make the call.

Rowand got lucky and in the end it still didn't save us a run. In fact it cost us one - a HUGE one at that point in the game. That's the bottom line anything else is for ****s and giggles...

Hangar18
09-21-2005, 01:42 PM
You honestly believe he deked Peralta on purpose? :?:

I have a REAL hard time accepting that line of reasoning. I think he just got so badly faked, he faked the runner too, sort of like a batter watching a perfect curve break back over the center of the plate while standing like a dimestore jndjan and the ump being so shocked he forgets to make the call.

Rowand got lucky and in the end it still didn't save us a run. In fact it cost us one - a HUGE one at that point in the game. That's the bottom line anything else is for ****s and giggles...

I actually was re-editing my post to reflect my not knowing if he did that on purpose or not. From where I was, in LF, I saw the whole play unfolding
(from a cross perspective)

Randar68
09-21-2005, 01:52 PM
I agree and the first thing I thought of when I saw the replay was "That's as bad an example of drifting with the baseball as I've seen in a while. He should have made that play, period."

When his OPS was over .900 last season, it didn't matter as much with him having come dramatically down to Earth this year offensively, the defensive mistakes just aren't as easy to overlook.

I sort of figured he would have a regression toward the norm this year offensively and said as much early in the season, but .741 OPS with a slightly below league average OBP, few walks and over 110 K's (9/2 K/BB ratio), he just isn't spectacular enough to be considered irreplaceable.

Yeah, he had a great series against the Yankees. So what? He also has a grand total of 3 assissts this season.

He's an average player who has unspectacular power and SB numbers. One of those should stand out if he is going to play CF full time...

Very well said, Voodoo.

And I would also like to point out that while my opinion may or may not be valid, opinions on the subjective scouting of baseball players, their abilities, and skills is often just that, and things change for better and worse. This makes it impossible for anything to be True/False, as Rocky indicated while defending me.

My only request is that people take an objective view of players, not factoring in any other wall-crashing or other play into their evaluation of the current play. There's only so many times you can say, "that was a tough one, but I'll forgive it because of offensive production or other good plays..."

Great players make tough plays LOOK easy and also make the routine plays.

Average players make the great play on occassion, make routine plays look tough, and make occassional mistakes on routine balls...

That's really all there is to it, IMO.

tstrike2000
09-21-2005, 01:55 PM
That Aaron Rowand is average defensively? The flare into short center when Politte was in he stepped back and froze IIRC, and then on the ball hit right at him, he again misplayed it.

I know that the ball smoked right at you is the hardest ball to read for a CF'er, but the guy manages to misplay them a majority of the time whether they're in front of him or over his head. (and making the play in the end doesn't dissolve one of still having made a bad/wrong read)

We're damn lucky neither mis-play cost us that game last night.

Rowand is pretty average defensively. Pods scares me too because he seems unsure when he's taking a route to a ball but usually can make up with for it with his speed. My problem with Rowand mainly has been, if he's not a speedster, I'd like more than 12 HR from my center fielder.

D. TODD
09-21-2005, 02:01 PM
Rowand has been above average defensively this year, but he was awful last night. The misplay on the line drive is obvious, but the horrible read he got on the ducksnort was almost as bad. With that said he has been solid this year, I would say above average, not a gold glove candidate as some have claimed.

maurice
09-21-2005, 02:19 PM
:threadblows:

Rowand's defense is as "average" as Crede's. They both have bad games, they both have spectacular games, and 95% of the time they're just damn solid. (I've seen great defenders like Hunter and Jones have bad games too. **** happens.)

Yesterday was a bad game. Tomorrow, he'll be fine.

Hell, the Mets have 2 CF'ers better than Aaron Rowand.

I've heard of "damning him with faint praise," but this is the first time I ever heard somebody praised with faint damnation.

it's obvious some people are too sensitive about certain players to discuss them objectively.

You ought to know.
:rolleyes:

OEO Magglio
09-21-2005, 02:25 PM
Aaron did not have a good night defensively last night but that happens to everyone...yes even Torrii Hunter, I've seen him get bad reads against us as well. Aaron deserves a gold glove this year he's been that good, he takes some of the best routes to balls in baseball, period.

nodiggity59
09-21-2005, 02:29 PM
Very well said, Voodoo.

And I would also like to point out that while my opinion may or may not be valid, opinions on the subjective scouting of baseball players, their abilities, and skills is often just that, and things change for better and worse. This makes it impossible for anything to be True/False, as Rocky indicated while defending me.

My only request is that people take an objective view of players, not factoring in any other wall-crashing or other play into their evaluation of the current play. There's only so many times you can say, "that was a tough one, but I'll forgive it because of offensive production or other good plays..."

Great players make tough plays LOOK easy and also make the routine plays.

Average players make the great play on occassion, make routine plays look tough, and make occassional mistakes on routine balls...

That's really all there is to it, IMO.

Randar, I gotta disagree with you here. In terms of making routine plays look tough, I don't give a flying flip as long as he makes the catch. The two mistakes Rowand made last have been made by the best in the bigs more than once this year.

I agree with the Crede reference. ARow and Crede make mistakes you wouldn't think they would sometimes, due to their peculiarities, but the bottom line is they play VERY solid defense.

ARow hitting has upset me like no other this year, but he's a solid guy out there.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 02:31 PM
I've heard of "damning him with faint praise," but this is the first time I ever heard somebody praised with faint damnation.


Rowand is a better CF'er than Carlos Beltran or Mike Cameron?

:bong:



You ought to know.


Like whom?

Hangar18
09-21-2005, 02:32 PM
Very well said, Voodoo.

And I would also like to point out that while my opinion may or may not be valid, opinions on the subjective scouting of baseball players, their abilities, and skills is often just that, and things change for better and worse. This makes it impossible for anything to be True/False, as Rocky indicated while defending me.

My only request is that people take an objective view of players, not factoring in any other wall-crashing or other play into their evaluation of the current play. There's only so many times you can say, "that was a tough one, but I'll forgive it because of offensive production or other good plays..."

Great players make tough plays LOOK easy and also make the routine plays.

Average players make the great play on occassion, make routine plays look tough, and make occassional mistakes on routine balls...

That's really all there is to it, IMO.

Nice post ...........

maurice
09-21-2005, 02:35 PM
Rowand is a better CF'er than Carlos Beltran or Mike Cameron?

Who said that?

Like whom?

Like the person who started this thread and the subject of this thread.

Your position on Rowand's defense is about as objective as Daver's position on Uribe's defense. Heck, you've both hated Rowand since he was drafted, because you thought it was a bad pick. That bias remains and always clouds your judgment of Rowand, hence this thread but no corresponding thread ripping a comparable defense player who you approve (Crede).

It doesn't matter whether he ultimately catches the ball?!? *****.

Max Power
09-21-2005, 02:36 PM
Hangar, that's a pretty interesting point about Rowand deking Peralta. Something I definitely hadn't considered. That would have to be some pretty split-second thinking by Rowand.
I'll have to watch how he plays the ball next time I'm at a game. In the meantime, I know Rowand plays his hardest and has made some game saving catches so I'm happy with him in center. That catch against the wall vs. the Mariners or the one in Cleveland when Posednik lost the ball. I guess the jury is out on his ability, but you can't question is heart.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 02:36 PM
Pods scares me too because he seems unsure when he's taking a route to a ball but usually can make up with for it with his speed.

Look, don't get me started on Pods... If he played Rowand's defense in CF, I'd be more than content with him, as he fills the CF-role, at least offensively, to a T... you then can move a less-mobile higher-production LF'er in his place, which are far easier to find than a CF'er of similar ability...

Rowand is clearly a polarizing topic, as he is a fan favorite. Just like Slonerko. Some can't get over the fan-favorite aspect to compare a player to others int he league.

Yes, everyone makes mistakes. Yes, everyone misplays balls. No, errors are not a good judge.

The problem with making routine plays LOOK hard is that it most often also indicates that the player will not have the opportunities to make GREAT plays because he can't get there due to routes, reads, etc... It's simply an indication, and it is the exact reason why having made "Routine Play A" look tough indicates something more far-reaching than still recording the out on said play.

Again, Rowand does not suck. He's an average defensive CF'er. However, people make him out to be this grand defensive wizard, which he most certainly is not.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 02:37 PM
Who said that?

I was assuming you were taking issue with my original statement based on your comment...

OEO Magglio
09-21-2005, 02:41 PM
Rowand is a better CF'er than Carlos Beltran or Mike Cameron?

:bong:





Like whom?
Aaron Rowand is in that exact class with Beltran and Cameron who are all a step below Hunter and Jones and who are all much better then Jim Edmonds.

maurice
09-21-2005, 02:42 PM
I was assuming you were taking issue with my original statement based on your comment...

Not at all. They're both better. I just don't see it as much of an insult.

It's like saying that Michael Jordan has average height for an American male because he's shorter than Shaq.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 02:47 PM
Your position on Rowand's defense is about as objective as Daver's position on Uribe's defense. Heck, you've both hated Rowand since he was drafted, because you thought it was a bad pick. That bias remains and always clouds your judgment of Rowand, hence this thread bu no corresponding thread ripping a comparable defense player who you approve (Crede).

Ok, that's a nice fairytale. It's not true, but if it helps you sleep at night, so be it. "Hated Rowand"... LOL. ok. I wish just 25% of the guys in our system had his work ethic, heart and determination. That doesn't mean I have to fabricate or exaggerate his playing ability like Hawk and seemingly 75% percent of the posters here do...

Just like Crede used to take his offensive struggles to the field with him, or Uribe ignoring the right side of the field for most of this year, and Konerko being entirely one-dimensional, and Jermaine Dye making bad mental/concentration mistakes in the OF on occassion, or Pods being a mediocre-at-best (more like BAD) defensive player, or AJ not moving his feet and using his body as well as he should, and McCarthy entirely ignoring his change-up in his first-go-around, and on and on and on...

This means I hate a player? That is some simplemindedness if I have ever seen it. Rowand has his deficiencies and it's not his fault he's been asked to play CF, IMO, he's just still not any better than average defensively, and doesn't give the team the things they need out of that position on the offensive end either!

Sheeesh. I'm sorry if I don't snort the Sox Kool-Aid with the rest of you "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" folsk, but I chose to live in this world called "reality"...

If that's not what you want out of your sports-base entertainment, fine, good luck to you, that's a fair statement.

But to proclaim hatred over critiquing of abilities is absolutely ignorant and asinine.


It doesn't matter whether he ultimately catches the ball?!? *****.

So, the abilities of a player who circles the wagons or drifts with a ball, thus preventing him from getting in good throwing position, or preventing him from getting to balls he otherwise would have been able to get to, can't also be judged or determined based on the plays he actually makes?

News to me...

Randar68
09-21-2005, 02:49 PM
Not at all. They're both better. I just don't see it as much of an insult.

It's like saying that Michael Jordan has average height for an American male because he's shorter than Shaq.

Someone else said Edmunds is the only better defensive CF'er... I was just adding a brief example of how bad that statement truly was.

Mohoney
09-21-2005, 02:50 PM
My only request is that people take an objective view of players, not factoring in any other wall-crashing or other play into their evaluation of the current play. There's only so many times you can say, "that was a tough one, but I'll forgive it because of offensive production or other good plays..."

You're right, but I do have to say that I like this OF's defense, as a whole, WAY better than any OF from 2001-2004.

I think that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts here. There are a lot of OFs in the league that have an absolute liability tucked in at one of the corners, and I'm glad that we don't have that. All three of our OFs are competent, and they can all run. There is some solid range out there, and I would say that Aaron has plus range.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 02:53 PM
You're right, but I do have to say that I like this OF's defense, as a whole, WAY better than any OF from 2001-2004.

I think that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts here. There are a lot of OFs in the league that have an absolute liability tucked in at one of the corners, and I'm glad that we don't have that. All three of our OFs are competent, and they can all run. There is some solid range out there, and I would say that Aaron has plus range.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. Pods is probably about equivalent to CLee in LF, and Rowand is a better CF'er this year than in any of his previous years. Maggs was always overrated and had a LF'ers arm for the most part. Dye is an upgrade there, IMO... SO Lf is about equivalent and the other 2 positions are ugrades... defensively, I agree, it is a better OF than previous years (although Singleton was a very good CF'er, can't remember which was his last year here)

Jenks4Pres
09-21-2005, 03:01 PM
ROWAND WAS PATHETIC LAST NIGHT and almost lost the game for us. No excuse.......bottom line. He was horrible!

wdelaney72
09-21-2005, 03:04 PM
One of the things being lost here is Rowand's arm, which I think is above average. I'll agree that Torii Hunter is better. Y'all are certainly entitled to you opinions. I'll rephrase my previous statement.

Besides Torii Hunter, there are VERY few CF in the AL better than Rowand. That puts him above average in my world.

ChiSoxBobette
09-21-2005, 03:15 PM
That Aaron Rowand is average defensively? The flare into short center when Politte was in he stepped back and froze IIRC, and then on the ball hit right at him, he again misplayed it.

I know that the ball smoked right at you is the hardest ball to read for a CF'er, but the guy manages to misplay them a majority of the time whether they're in front of him or over his head. (and making the play in the end doesn't dissolve one of still having made a bad/wrong read)

We're damn lucky neither mis-play cost us that game last night.

You must be a Rowand hater, Dude you're clueless, this year Aaron has been outstanding defensively. Maybe you're a Damon lover.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 03:23 PM
Besides Torii Hunter, there are VERY few CF in the AL better than Rowand. That puts him above average in my world.

I guess I just happen to think there are a lot of mediocre or bad CF'ers in the AL right now.

Yesterday's starting CF'ers in the AL...

Cle: Sizemore
Sox: Rowand
Tex: Matthews Jr.
Ana: Figgins
Min: Ford
Oak: Kotsay
Sea: Reed
Tor: Vernon Wells
Bos: Damon
Tam: Gathright
Bal: Matos
NYY: Williams
Det: Granderson
KC: Ambres

Not a very distinguished list in the AL. Lots of REALLY young or REALLY bad/old CF'ers. Rowand is a step below the elite CF'ers defensively, along with Kotsay, Damon, and a few others. Keep in mind Hunter being out for the year.

If we want to use this list as the baseline, then I would probably put Rowand "above the average", in the literal sense...


Ok, I've made my point, I'll let it go, but realistically, this will be something that is much talked about in the offseason, as this team needs to find a way to fit a few more productive and consistent bats into the lineup somewhere...

ode to veeck
09-21-2005, 03:26 PM
Can't agree with you here Randar. Rowand's improved tremendously as CF, and well above average in center field. This year, he's probably our best defensive OF in several years. Sure, he's not up there with the very best, e.g. a Chet Lemon kind of guy, but he continues to improve. While he doesn't have the gun of an arm that Dye has, it is more than adequate, and unlike Dye he is much more disciplined in his throws (hitting the cutoff, keeping the baserunner to 1st on a single, etc). Sure, he had a horrible night in the late innings last night, but he's made great plays in a lot more than just those in the YankMes series this year and his routes overall are improving.

Frater Perdurabo
09-21-2005, 03:27 PM
You must be a Rowand hater, Dude you're clueless, this year Aaron has been outstanding defensively. Maybe you're a Damon lover.

Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Kindly read a person's posts in their entirety before you paint with such a broad brush and call that person a "hater."

Civilization as we know it is coming to a rapid end; reading for context and comprehension is a dying art.

:rolleyes:

Randar68
09-21-2005, 03:30 PM
You must be a Rowand hater, Dude you're clueless, this year Aaron has been outstanding defensively. Maybe you're a Damon lover.

Thanks for adding such a profound and well-reasoned opinion on the matter.

:rolleyes:

ode to veeck
09-21-2005, 03:32 PM
I guess I just happen to think there are a lot of mediocre or bad CF'ers in the AL right now.


I would tend to agree with that. In a previous discussion with Ozzie aired on Fox last night they were asking him about future players converting to managers and he commented on how players today are coming up with weaker skills in general in all the fundamentals, requiring a lot more effort to teach them once they'd arrive to the show, making it much harder to think they'll be many more (converted managers), but Frater's comment here on CF skills and list brings it home. Part of Roward's problem is he was converted from a corner OF after he came up to the Sox.

Personally, I used to love playing CF, but really didn't understand OF throwing discipline with my gun until after I'd switched to softball for several years in my mid 20s

longshot7
09-21-2005, 03:56 PM
One of the things being lost here is Rowand's arm, which I think is above average. I'll agree that Torii Hunter is better. Y'all are certainly entitled to you opinions. I'll rephrase my previous statement.

Besides Torii Hunter, there are VERY few CF in the AL better than Rowand. That puts him above average in my world.

Steve Finley - but he has forgotten how to hit. I tend to think that Figgins is underrated in CF, even though he's really an infielder.

Randar, even though I diagree with your assessment, I think you make good arguments. Folks, stop calling him a hater! Everything is always so black-and-white with most people.

Randar68
09-21-2005, 04:09 PM
Steve Finley - but he has forgotten how to hit. I tend to think that Figgins is underrated in CF, even though he's really an infielder.

Personally, AL-only and defense-only, I would take Sizemore as well. Heck, Kotsay has less speed than Rowand, but his instincts are so great, he almost ALWAYS makes the right read off the bat and he has a good arm as well... Fundamentally a better CF'er than Rowand. I haven't seen enough of Gathright, but in the little I have, he's been outstanding. Ford is about comparable to Rowand, IMO. Rowand is near the top of the middle-third in defense-only comparisons IMO.


That said, it's tough to isolate the comparison to defense-only... Guys like Vernon Wells are so valuable because of offense, but defensively, he's MAYBE in the middle of the list. If your CF'er is a true leadoff of #3/#4 hitter, it is certainly easier to build the rest of the OF around defensive deficiencies..

wdelaney72
09-21-2005, 04:29 PM
Personally, AL-only and defense-only, I would take Sizemore as well. Heck, Kotsay has less speed than Rowand, but his instincts are so great, he almost ALWAYS makes the right read off the bat and he has a good arm as well... Fundamentally a better CF'er than Rowand. I haven't seen enough of Gathright, but in the little I have, he's been outstanding. Ford is about comparable to Rowand, IMO. Rowand is near the top of the middle-third in defense-only comparisons IMO.

That said, it's tough to isolate the comparison to defense-only... Guys like Vernon Wells are so valuable because of offense, but defensively, he's MAYBE in the middle of the list. If your CF'er is a true leadoff of #3/#4 hitter, it is certainly easier to build the rest of the OF around defensive deficiencies..

I will RESPECTFULLY disagree with you on this one. You've certainly made a legitimate case for your argument.

To those calling Randar a Rowand-hater, reading is a skill.

HotelWhiteSox
09-21-2005, 04:40 PM
I like Rowand but he was brutal last night. 2 real bad defensive plays where he started back or in at first and didn't read the ball well at all, made me real nervous for the rest of the night. Also very bad at the plate, he had the sac fly, but couldn't get a runner in earlier and just looked bad. He was lucky he was hit by that pitch when he was down in the count late, and VERY lucky that his teammates picked him up. I don't know about the rest of the crowd, but my section was ready to crucify him as the 'steroid' accusations came back, which is a little sad to hear at home, but the mentality of the fan (especially live) is 'what have you done for me lately?'

TomBradley72
09-21-2005, 04:48 PM
I'm completely satisfied with Aaron as our CF for 2005. Over time.....he'd be much more effective as a corner OF...and my guess is that his offense would improve as well with the lesser defensive responsibilities.

The Richie Sexson catch took incredible guts/courage....and that's only one example. Is he the prototypical CF? No. Is he the best CF for us over the next few years? Probably not. Is he the right CF for the 2005 White Sox....I think so.

Minnie Me
09-21-2005, 04:56 PM
A Row is in a fielding slump. Suspect he will screw up again tonight. On the Stratomatic fielding system I would rate him as a (2) for range and a (-1) for his arm. That said he couldn't carry Ken Berry's jock but he is better that Valentine out there!

OEO Magglio
09-21-2005, 04:56 PM
Personally, AL-only and defense-only, I would take Sizemore as well. Heck, Kotsay has less speed than Rowand, but his instincts are so great, he almost ALWAYS makes the right read off the bat and he has a good arm as well... Fundamentally a better CF'er than Rowand. I haven't seen enough of Gathright, but in the little I have, he's been outstanding. Ford is about comparable to Rowand, IMO. Rowand is near the top of the middle-third in defense-only comparisons IMO.


That said, it's tough to isolate the comparison to defense-only... Guys like Vernon Wells are so valuable because of offense, but defensively, he's MAYBE in the middle of the list. If your CF'er is a true leadoff of #3/#4 hitter, it is certainly easier to build the rest of the OF around defensive deficiencies..
Well, agreeing to disagree is the only way to settle this so we'll leave it at that. But, I just want to say that imo Aaron and Kotsay are the two best defensive centerfielders in the al this year because of the Hunter injury.

miker
09-21-2005, 05:43 PM
Show me an outfielder who's never broke the wrong way on a ball, and I'll show you a guy who never played outfield.

Rowand's very, very good at what he does. Why are we ragging on him for one bad play, albeit at an inopportune time?
How 'bout we have a thread thanking Creede for picking Rowand up? That's what winning baseball is...teammates picking each other up.

maurice
09-21-2005, 08:12 PM
Rowand is near the top of the middle-third in defense-only comparisons IMO.

IMHO, he's comparable to guys in the top third but not elite. That's not much higher than you've rated him. However, there's a pretty sizable gap between the top-third guys and an average defensive CF in today's game. The average CF is pretty bad and that doesn't fairly describe Rowand's defense.

Anybody who is familar with the numerous Rowand-bashing threads from a few years back is well aware of the fact that you had an extremely negative opinion of Rowand -- not as a person but as a player. (It's impossible to dislike him as a person.) He already has vastly exceeded your projections. The fact that you started this thread is pretty strong evidence that you haven't let it go. You're not responding to an exaggerated claim that Rowand is a Gold Glover. You're kicking the guy when he's down.

Look, everybody has biases. You're right. Many aspects of scouting are subjective and subject to bias. Keep in mind that this rule applies to all of us, including both me and you.

That doesn't mean I have to fabricate or exaggerate his playing ability like Hawk and seemingly 75% percent of the posters here do...


You know that I share your contempt for Hawk and other homers who ignore shortcomings based solely on the popularity of a player. I have famously (infamously?) gone after the most popular players on the team at the height of their popularity (e.g., Ordonez) and defended players when they were extremely unpopular (e.g., Cotts). This is an example of me defending a guy on a day when he's unpopular. I've done exactly the same from Crede following his 2-error days, though Crede's hardly a favorite of mine.

So, the abilities of a player who . . . can't also be judged or determined based on the plays he actually makes?

The point is that the actual outcome of the play (e.g., the difference between an out or a 2-base error) definitely is not irrelevant. You should consider the items you listed, but you absolutely should not disregard the actual outcome of the play. Defense is relevant only to the extent that it helps pitchers prevent runs. Baseball is not figureskating. You don't get points for artistic content.

All things being equal, the smoother player is better than the awkward player. However, all things are very rarely equal. Superior physical skills often compensate for technical inferiority. Most MLB starting shortstops are smoother than Uribe, but the vast majority of them are worse defensively because Uribe makes more outs. He's ugly but effective. If you ignore the results, you might be tricked into thinking that Uribe sucks when he's actually really good.

jabrch
09-21-2005, 08:16 PM
Hardest play for a CF to make....ball right at them and hard....


He makes a lot of plays that most guys don't make. That's a play that will bit a lot of guys. I'll pardon him on that one.

Randar, who are your top 5 AL CFs, defensively?

jabrch
09-21-2005, 08:17 PM
A Row is in a fielding slump. Suspect he will screw up again tonight. On the Stratomatic fielding system I would rate him as a (2) for range and a (-1) for his arm. That said he couldn't carry Ken Berry's jock but he is better that Valentine out there!

He definitely has a + arm for a CF. He has a RFs arm. Bad jumps or routes every now and then - yes...but bad arm for a CF? NO WAY.

maurice
09-21-2005, 08:21 PM
To anybody who thinks they need to defend Randar against me.

We've been arguing about Rowand longer than some of you have been on this site. Believe me, he can take it.
:cool:

Daver
09-21-2005, 08:25 PM
To anybody who thinks they need to defend Randar against me.

We've been arguing about Rowand longer than some of you have been on this site. Believe me, he can take it.
:cool:

Yah think?


I stayed out of this one, so you wouldn't feel ganged up on.


:redneck

jabrch
09-21-2005, 09:12 PM
To anybody who thinks they need to defend Randar against me.

We've been arguing about Rowand longer than some of you have been on this site. Believe me, he can take it.
:cool:

I used to agree with Randar. I don't anymore. I certainly think is a + CF.

antitwins13
09-21-2005, 09:15 PM
Does that series at Yankee Stadium mean ANYTHING to you???

Rowand's defense alone allowed us to take 2 of 3 there.

Ask A-Rod if he thinks Rowand is a decent defensive player...:cool:

This thread sucks, I can't believe we're in a pennant race and this is the best thread we can come up with. Rowand has had a gold glove caliber year, and he takes one bad rout and now he's written off. I beg the mods to move this to the WSI Roadhouse where it belongs

Daver
09-21-2005, 09:16 PM
This thread sucks, I can't believe we're in a pennant race; Rowand has had a gold glove caliber year, and he takes one bad rout and now he's written off. I beg the mods to move this to the WSI Roadhouse where it belongs

No.

A. Cavatica
09-21-2005, 10:50 PM
I agree he should be hung out to dry for the ball over his head last night, but one play doesn't change my opinion of him. He's in the top third.

kitekrazy
09-22-2005, 12:51 AM
Watched him all year take bad routes.

I think you are confused. David Terrell is no longer a Bear.

Randar68
09-22-2005, 03:52 PM
IMHO, he's comparable to guys in the top third but not elite. That's not much higher than you've rated him. However, there's a pretty sizable gap between the top-third guys and an average defensive CF in today's game. The average CF is pretty bad and that doesn't fairly describe Rowand's defense.

Anybody who is familar with the numerous Rowand-bashing threads from a few years back is well aware of the fact that you had an extremely negative opinion of Rowand -- not as a person but as a player. (It's impossible to dislike him as a person.) He already has vastly exceeded your projections. The fact that you started this thread is pretty strong evidence that you haven't let it go. You're not responding to an exaggerated claim that Rowand is a Gold Glover. You're kicking the guy when he's down.

Look, everybody has biases. You're right. Many aspects of scouting are subjective and subject to bias. Keep in mind that this rule applies to all of us, including both me and you.

I don't think Rowand has necessarily exceeded my expectations for him. Has he become a better defensive player than I thought possible? Absolutely. He has performed at the plate almost exactly in-tune with my expectations. High K's, few Walks, ~20 HR's TOPS, and an average in the .270-.280 range... Basically, that's what he has provided over the past 3 years with some obvious fluctuations, but on average...

Despite being improved in CF, I still think his instinct are pretty poor and he doesn't read the ball off the bat well. Heck, a lot of CF'ers have played there since HS or earlier. Rowand has been a corner OF'er his entire life until playing on the Sox. The instincts in CF are not natural for him. Again, it has improved, and the effort and desire and work-ethic are there in spades... But that doesn't mean I have to ignore his shortcomings.

About the response to Gold Glove comments... They've been scatterred all over this board the entire second half. I can't start a thread addressing them in one place? I figure it's better to discuss it, get it all out in the open, etc, instead of hijacking threads all over the place. Do you disagree?


The point is that the actual outcome of the play (e.g., the difference between an out or a 2-base error) definitely is not irrelevant. You should consider the items you listed, but you absolutely should not disregard the actual outcome of the play. Defense is relevant only to the extent that it helps pitchers prevent runs. Baseball is not figureskating. You don't get points for artistic content.

All things being equal, the smoother player is better than the awkward player. However, all things are very rarely equal. Superior physical skills often compensate for technical inferiority. Most MLB starting shortstops are smoother than Uribe, but the vast majority of them are worse defensively because Uribe makes more outs. He's ugly but effective. If you ignore the results, you might be tricked into thinking that Uribe sucks when he's actually really good.

I'm not kicking Rowand when he's down. I notice his misplays regularly without comment. However, for most people, it's only worth noting if it is an egregious error or misplay, which is why I bring it up now... If it is subtle, or a ball he should have gotten that he didn't because of a poor route in the gap, few people will notice or be willing to analyze it objectively. That is why this was the time to bring it up. 2 high-profile misplays in the most high-profile situations of the year... Brings the issue into reality and the forefront of peoples' minds.

Yes, superior skills or technical/fundamental skills often compensate for the other. Mark Kotsay is a perfect example. You see him run and figure he's got to be a LF'er. His instincts and smarts compensate. Rowand is technically inferior to Kotsay but has superior physical skills. In the end, they are approximately equivalent in terms of value or ability...

Uribe makes plays with his arm while others make them with their range, it's a trade-off, no doubt. Heck, Nomar is "smooth" and I'd take Uribe 7 days a week and twice on Sundays over him defensively. However, you still look at the reasons why they can or can't make certain plays, and IMO, the mental or fundamental aspect is the only real area for improvement. Guys rarely build on their defensive skillset from when they enter the league. So what is wrong with pointing out where there are shortcomings in this area?

The outcome of a certain play is irrelevant when you are determining a player's ability to get to balls, etc. Misplays or misreads on any kind of a ball are something that indicate a player is not consistently capable of making plays you would not expect them to make. The GREAT or extremely difficult plays are ones which require zero margin for error. You always want to see a guy maximize his physical potential into performance... those misplays indicate wasted physical skill...

This is extremely important across the board in scouting players, because it directly translates to their likelihood to realize their physical potential... lack of experience is excuseable in very young players, but having crap instincts is something that rarely improves in a player (not saying Rowand's instincts are 'crap'). For example, Robert Valido is a guy who has amazing feel and instincts for the game. He's not as physically talented as other SS's around the game, but he has a VERY high likelihood, IMO, of realizing his potential. This is a reason why tools guys underrate him, IMO. This is a similar reason why performance guys don't like Ryan Sweeney as much. But Borch or Corey Patterson are kind of the opposites...

I want to see Rowand become a legit GG CF'er. However, he does things that lead me to believe he is not ever going to reach that ability-level because of the poor instincts he shows on a semi-regular basis. Again, he has improved, but at what point do you stop expecting a player of his age/experience to continue to improve that area of his game? A player with great instincts is someone who is dependable with their defense to their physical limits... a guy with great tools, skills, or average instincts is the guy who misplays the ball or makes errors at crucial points in games that are of course the most notable.

Sticking with the SS analogy, it's like comparing Valentin at SS to Uribe... Jose had better range and probably about equivalent arm, but his mental concentration lapsed many times at poor times in games, and it resulted in many crucial errors. At SS, these are far more noticeable that in CF, where, instead of errors, a guy slightly misjudges a ball, get's caught flat-footed, etc. He fails to make a play, but by the time anyone is watching it simply looks like he "couldn't get there"...

Beauty35thStreet
09-22-2005, 10:29 PM
I appreciate your point Randar, but thank goodness though that Rowand is no Valentin. :D: I'll stick with ARow as my CF. Even if he makes the job harder than it has to be, the cat does a decent job and he'll be a gamer in time, if not next year. Right now ARow's at bat vs Rincon and its 3-1, let's see what happens.


Sticking with the SS analogy, it's like comparing Valentin at SS to Uribe... Jose had better range and probably about equivalent arm, but his mental concentration lapsed many times at poor times in games, and it resulted in many crucial errors. At SS, these are far more noticeable that in CF, where, instead of errors, a guy slightly misjudges a ball, get's caught flat-footed, etc. He fails to make a play, but by the time anyone is watching it simply looks like he "couldn't get there"...

MRKARNO
09-22-2005, 11:06 PM
I was paying attention today, Randar, and they were god-awful. This latest one in the 11th probably cost us the game. The other close plays should not have been. IIRC, he wasn't that bad earlier, but I'm sure he's going through a phase where he's just making terrible reads. It's an awful time for this to happen and it may end up costing us the division.

CHISOXFAN13
09-22-2005, 11:41 PM
I was paying attention today, Randar, and they were god-awful. This latest one in the 11th probably cost us the game. The other close plays should not have been. IIRC, he wasn't that bad earlier, but I'm sure he's going through a phase where he's just making terrible reads. It's an awful time for this to happen and it may end up costing us the division.

I agree 100 percent with Randar. Rowand made some nice catches tonight, but there is no excuse for letting that ball in the 11th drop. It was in the air for what seemed like a half-hour.

Rocky Soprano
09-23-2005, 09:36 AM
As soon as he misplayed that ball, yet again, after cursing him, I smiled a bit because I knew that Rowand just proved Randar right, again!

wdelaney72
09-23-2005, 09:39 AM
Randar,
As much as I enjoyed our debate on Rowand, he's done a nice job of supporting your argument. I still like his arm, but he has proven in these last few crucial games to not be the best jedge of fly balls/line drives in CF.

BeviBall!
09-23-2005, 09:50 AM
Guys... that was Gooch's ball. It landed 15 feet behind him... he was still moping after killing us with his 5-3 DP, five minutes before.

harwar
09-23-2005, 10:11 AM
There's no question that Rowand gets such a bad jump on the ball that he looks like he needs glasses.
Some of the great looking catches that he makes are because he's totally misplayed the ball in the first place.
I think the tremendous series that he had in the bronx made everyone's expectations of his ability rise to unreasonable levels.
I have been waiting my entire life for the White Sox to get a great defensive CF.It can be so beautiful to watch a really talented center fielder ply his trade.
I think that Aaron is an average player across the board..

BeviBall!
09-23-2005, 10:13 AM
There's no question that Rowand gets such a bad jump on the ball that he looks like he needs glasses.
Some of the great looking catches that he makes are because he's totally misplayed the ball in the first place.
I think the tremendous series that he had in the bronx made everyone's expectations of his ability rise to unreasonable levels.
I have been waiting my entire life for the White Sox to get a great defensive CF.It can be so beautiful to watch a really talented center fielder ply his trade.
I think that Aaron is an average player across the board..

There is truth to this, but I still fault the infielders for Lew Ford.

Deuce
09-23-2005, 12:09 PM
There is truth to this, but I still fault the infielders for Lew Ford.

Gooch's problem all year is that he has not been assertive in calling a ball in the shallow outfield. He could have caught that ball and should have caught it. In the end, Rowand had to make a very long run and a leap to try for the ball. At the very least, Gooch should have backed up Rowand in case he didn't come through. Instead, he just stopped.

Still, that was not the play that lost us this game. Not scoring a single runner in the 8th, 9th and 10th is what lost us this game.

Deuce