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View Full Version : *Official* 9/17/05 El Duque Pitch Count Express Game Thread


TheOldRoman
09-17-2005, 02:55 PM
Don't blame this loss on El Duque. Not even for a second.

I anticipate a postgame horror-fest where people will blame Hernandez for the loss. I would like thos people to show me a stats of how many games have been won by a team scoring zero runs. The offense lost this game. El Duque could have gone 8 innings and given up 1 run, but it wouldn't have mattered. The offensive output was absolutely horrible and shameful. Santana is a great pitcher, but he is nowhere close to what he was last year. I believe he has 10 wins against teams other than the White Sox (14 total after today). This is the same Santana that gave up 4 runs in only 5 innings that last time the Indians faced him. The Sox got off on the wrong foot by striking out 3 times in the first, and didn't get a baserunner until the 5th inning. Not having seen the game, there is no excuse for such horrible offensive "output" in such a big game. Santana has owned us, but it is all in our hitters' heads. Like I said, his era is 3.04 this year, and only 1.16 against the Sox. It wouldn't have mattered if Cy Young pitched for us today, the Sox hitters just didnt come to win today.

That being said, Hernandez doesn't start again for us this year. The Twins have a horrible lineup, and this is about as big as games come this point of the season. If he, as a big game pitcher, cant get up for this game and not give up 4 runs in 3 2/3, he shoudn't pitch again. Ever. He should bt shut down until the playoffs, and then used only as the last man out of the pen. Lets hope the Royals win tonight, it is gonna be a dicey couple of days here until we get the chance to beat the Indians again.

/rant. We are 10-3 against the Indians, and we will take at least 2 from them this week. No worries.

Chips
09-17-2005, 03:02 PM
Don't blame this loss on El Duque. Not even for a second.

I anticipate a postgame horror-fest where people will blame Hernandez for the loss. I would like thos people to show me a stats of how many games have been won by a team scoring zero runs. The offense lost this game. El Duque could have gone 8 innings and given up 1 run, but it wouldn't have mattered. The offensive output was absolutely horrible and shameful. Santana is a great pitcher, but he is nowhere close to what he was last year. I believe he has 10 wins against teams other than the White Sox (14 total after today). This is the same Santana that gave up 4 runs in only 5 innings that last time the Indians faced him. The Sox got off on the wrong foot by striking out 3 times in the first, and didn't get a baserunner until the 5th inning. Not having seen the game, there is no excuse for such horrible offensive "output" in such a big game. Santana has owned us, but it is all in our hitters' heads. Like I said, his era is 3.04 this year, and only 1.16 against the Sox. It wouldn't have mattered if Cy Young pitched for us today, the Sox hitters just didnt come to win today.

That being said, Hernandez doesn't start again for us this year. The Twins have a horrible lineup, and this is about as big as games come this point of the season. If he, as a big game pitcher, cant get up for this game and not give up 4 runs in 3 2/3, he shoudn't pitch again. Ever. He should bt shut down until the playoffs, and then used only as the last man out of the pen. Lets hope the Royals win tonight, it is gonna be a dicey couple of days here until we get the chance to beat the Indians again.

/rant. We are 10-3 against the Indians, and we will take at least 2 from them this week. No worries.

Our offense is horrible with base juiced, nobody out. Last night, one run. Today, zero runs. Besides that, the offense was absent all day.

Deuce
09-17-2005, 03:03 PM
Ouch!

JRIG
09-17-2005, 03:03 PM
103 pitches through 3 2/3 innings. A fine outing.

Have at it.

DSpivack
09-17-2005, 03:03 PM
Go Royals!

TomParrish79
09-17-2005, 03:04 PM
it happens....Santana owns us....we'll get them tomorrow

soxwon
09-17-2005, 03:04 PM
ARE we the OFFICIAL-LAUGHING STOCK of BASEBALL?

Oh we are making History.

winning ugly 72
09-17-2005, 03:04 PM
THIS SUCKS! I don't know how much more i can take. GO ROYALS!

MRKARNO
09-17-2005, 03:04 PM
At least no one struck out five times

chisoxfanatic
09-17-2005, 03:05 PM
It's time for McCarthy to take El Duque's place in the rotation. The young stud has far better composure!

Chips
09-17-2005, 03:05 PM
We need to step it up tomorrow and score some runs and get back to winning.

SomebodyToldMe
09-17-2005, 03:05 PM
we'll get them tomorrow

I'm sorry, but I'm getting sick of hearing this. Tomorrow seems to never come.

Deuce
09-17-2005, 03:06 PM
103 pitches through 3 2/3 innings. A fine outing.

Have at it.

I had a train derailment joke on the way, but with the actual Metra derailment today, it would be in very poor taste. So, Ill just say "Go Royals."

DSpivack
09-17-2005, 03:06 PM
ARE we the OFFICIAL-LAUGHING STOCK of BASEBALL?

Oh we are making History.

Just a quick glance at the standings, and the only team with a worse record in their last ten games is the Mets [2-8, Sox 3-7].

ode to veeck
09-17-2005, 03:06 PM
106 pitches in 3 and 2/3!?! Glad the gamr wasn't on DirectTV left coast today

SouthSide_HitMen
09-17-2005, 03:07 PM
I hope El Duque isn't upset Ozzie didn't give him a chance for the victory.

I hope the 40 year old is resigned to mop up the rest of the way. McCarthy must be inserted into the rotation. Looks like Garcia is going on Monday.

We figured this would be a tough one. If we win tomorrow, which I think is going to happen, we split the road trip and still are in position to clinch at home - only now we have to wait until the Twins series.
Thank God this is a Saturday Afternoon and Dark Cloud rants will be kept to a minimum. I guess if we had to pick one game to not be televised, this one was it.

Frankfan4life
09-17-2005, 03:08 PM
Not even close. A sad, sad effort from the Sox. We're looking at a possible 3 and a half game lead today. But, I still have hope. A slim lead is better than no lead.

Let's just go get em tomorrow, win this series, and then prepare for war.

Wsoxmike59
09-17-2005, 03:08 PM
Well I had a pretty strong feeling we wouldn't win today going up against Santana. (4-0 vs Chi in '05) All we can do is regroup and come back and get 'em tomorrow.


Go Sox, win the series.

MRKARNO
09-17-2005, 03:08 PM
Can we all agree at this point that if Everett remains in the heart of the lineup and McCarthy is not in the rotation in the upcoming week that Ozzie does not have a clue how to take real measures to stop a potential tailspin?

infohawk
09-17-2005, 03:09 PM
Somebody must have told Al Leiter to put on El Duque's jersey.

I was hoping to win this game, but I didn't think we would. We just can't seem to beat Santana. Cleveland got to him but he had some kind of a blister problem and had to leave the game early. Had he pitched deep into that game, we wouldn't have even faced him today.

Anyway, we need to take the series tomorrow. I think it's Contreras agaisnt Lohse. That favors us greatly. We need to take advantage of that just as the Twins took advantage of today's match-up.

southsideirish71
09-17-2005, 03:09 PM
Can we get the Corpseball Offenses of old back. We cant even make contact now. Maybe get Walt to work with the entire team, he helped Uribe.

Walker obviously has these guys prepared to hit. Nice job Walk, keep up the good work. :angry:

JRIG
09-17-2005, 03:10 PM
Can we all agree at this point that if Everett remains in the heart of the lineup and McCarthy is not in the rotation in the upcoming week that Ozzie does not have a clue how to take real measures to stop a potential tailspin?

How about Dye (even with his 4 Ks today) continuing to bat 6th, even though he's our 2nd best hitter. Iguchi resting constantly, even though he says he doesn't want or need it. Podsednik still having a green light and costing the team out left and right on the basepaths...I could go on

We still have every chance in the world to keep our lead though. These next four will be fun games to watch, hopefully.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 03:12 PM
Melton is saying our OFFENSE is letting us down here down the stretch .........
Said these games are all Playoff type games, and they have to wake up, but they simply arent doing it.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 03:13 PM
The 2005 White Sox only go as far as the starting pitchers carry them. It's been like this for most of six months now.

El Duque was severely overmatched vs. Santana. His record is now 9-9 with a 5.26 ERA. Sox hitters didn't even come close to making up the difference today. Jermaine Dye struck out 4 times all by himself.
:o:

Any Sox starter with an ERA over 5 will be lucky to win a game, but they've been very very good and winning with low ERA's. That's been the key to the team's success, but I'm guessing El Duque will slip under .500 before this season is over. He ain't got it. At least not anymore

DrCrawdad
09-17-2005, 03:13 PM
As I've said before, if Ozzie trots El Duque out to start another game this season, I may have to go Ligue on Ozzie.

:redneck

For the last week or so I've been hitting the panic button while in my panic room. Today though the loss was a foregone conclusion and I'm not panicky. I'm comfortably numb...

kaufsox
09-17-2005, 03:14 PM
OK this sucked, but Santana has owned the Sox the last two years. Got to get the bats on track tomorrow. Go KC! Go Toronto!

JRIG
09-17-2005, 03:15 PM
As I've said before, if Ozzie trots El Duque out to start another game this season, I may have to go Ligue on Ozzie.

:redneck

For the last week or so I've been hitting the panic button while in my panic room. Today though the loss was a foregone conclusion and I'm not panicky. I'm comfortably numb...

This loss shouldn't come as a surprise. Santana's the best in the AL, and we were throwing a guy who shouldn't even be int he rotation. Let's see how the offense responds tomorrow. Contreras v. Lohse is a game we should have a good chance of taking.

Unregistered
09-17-2005, 03:15 PM
Duque crapped the bed today. Say what you will, but we were down 4-0 to a crap offense before the Sox even got their first hit. 3 2/3 innings is not giving your team a chance to win.

That being said, if we can win tomorrow and KC can manage to grab 1 of 3 against Cleveland this weekend, we're right where we were on Thursday (4.5 up), with 3 less games to play.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 03:15 PM
Now theres talk that Ozz shouldnt have thrown El Duque out there, knowing that LATELY hes been hit hard, and that our offense HASNT been great, he shouldve been on a short leash. Said the two combined made this a tough game. Saying that was a chance Ozz took and we lost.

southsideirish71
09-17-2005, 03:16 PM
Here is a interesting idea. When our hitters get 2 strikes on them, shorten their swing up a bit and try to make contact. Bases loaded, no outs, and long looping swings going for the dong. 3 K's. Pathetic. :angry:

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 03:16 PM
Melton is saying our OFFENSE is letting us down here down the stretch .........

I disagree. I think the offense is performing exactly as should be expected, more or less. It's the pitchers who carry the Sox, not the hitters. This team has never been very good swinging the bats and I'm sure Bill Melton knows it.

cheeses_h_rice
09-17-2005, 03:17 PM
Of the 3 games against the Twins, this is the one I thought the Sox would probably lose.

Glad I didn't see it, or even listen to much of it.

Go Royals.

SoxSpeed22
09-17-2005, 03:17 PM
What the crap do Sox hitters think when they're on there?! They don't learn their lesson after being shut out 3 times!
I am very aware that hitting is one of the most difficult things to do and that this is a difficult sport, so don't quote me askin' "Have you tried hitting against someone like Santana?"

JRIG
09-17-2005, 03:19 PM
I disagree. I think the offense is performing exactly as should be expected, more or less. It's the pitchers who carry the Sox, not the hitters. This team has never been very good swinging the bats and I'm sure Bill Melton knows it.

Should it be a surprise we're slumping when Buehrle, Garland, Garcia, and El Duque can't get a quality start to save their lives? Pitching fueled the first half surge, and pitching is the reason we'll press on in the playoffs or drop 3 in the first round. It's that simple.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 03:21 PM
Santana is tough, no doubt about it. I could only hear Farmer and Rooney's description and it didn't sound like they felt the Sox were taking good swings. Of course with 16 strikeouts (!), how could they?

:o:

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 03:22 PM
.......... pitching is the reason we'll press on in the playoffs or drop 3 in the first round. It's that simple.

I just wish this team wasnt so one-dimensional, where if our pitchers slump,
the whole teams slumps. We Need You Big Frank

Flight #24
09-17-2005, 03:25 PM
The important Q - what has Ozzie said postgame regarding Duque's slot in the rotation?In some sense, with the way Santana was pitching today, I'd almost rather they left Vizcaino in and saved McCarthy to go on Monday, giving the guys an extra day. But I can see Ozzie wanting to try and keep things at 4-0 and going with his best guy.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 03:25 PM
Santana is tough, no doubt about it. I could only hear Farmer and Rooney's description and it didn't sound like they felt the Sox were taking good swings. Of course with 16 strikeouts (!), how could they?

:o:


You could tell by the exasperation by Farmer .......that the SOX were getting themselves out most of the time. "........swing and a miss .......he struck him out ....." "yeah...........that ball was high"

Hawk said the same thing last nite .........."This is what happens when your scufflin' "

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 03:28 PM
Given the choice of being pitching rich or pitching poor, I'll take the Sox rotation over any in the league. We gave up some potent bats to assemble it, but that's okay. Not having Schoenweis, Wright, Diaz, and Grilli on the bump 2 of every 5 days is the biggest reason why the Sox are so improved in 2005.

However the '05 rotation simply isn't getting the job done right now. After today's game I'm afraid Ozzie must roll the dice using McCarthy as starter and relegate El Duque to the 'pen. He looks through.

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-17-2005, 03:29 PM
It's Santana..and let's be honest...less than 12 hours later, they're playing again...aim for tomorrow...go Royals.

MRKARNO
09-17-2005, 03:30 PM
You knew it was going to be a long game when, after Everett was the first Sox batter to put the ball in play, Farmer remarked, "Well, that's a start."

infohawk
09-17-2005, 03:32 PM
Of the 3 games against the Twins, this is the one I thought the Sox would probably lose.

Same here. I actually liked the idea of letting El Duque pitch only because I really didn't think we had much of a shot against Santana. Start McCarthy in a game we have a better chance of winning. Even if McCarthy had only given up a run or two, it would have been a wasted effort. B-mac only pitched three innings and can probably be ready to start in a couple of days if Freddy needs a break. If not Freddie, than I'm pretty sure B-mac will get El Duque's next start.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 03:32 PM
Hawk said the same thing last nite .........."This is what happens when your scufflin' "

See, this is the part I'm not buying. The Sox hitters aren't the problem. They've never been very good. They've been in the bottom-third of the A.L. all season.

It's the Sox pitchers that give the team a shot at winning. However El Duque can't be counted on to fill a starter's role anymore.

RallyBowl
09-17-2005, 03:34 PM
Missing: White Sox Offense

We should start stealing signs against Satan-a.

Greg Walker, where are you? Do these guys have any film of the dozens of times Johan has made them look like like 12 year olds? Isn't it the job of the hitting coach to HELP THE TEAM HIT?

Having said that, I don't think there is any way we could lose tomorrow. Today was not cool, but we will win tomorrow. Two out of three the rest of the way definitely would rule!

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 03:36 PM
See, this is the part I'm not buying. The Sox hitters aren't the problem. They've never been very good. They've been in the bottom-third of the A.L. all season.

It's the Sox pitchers that give the team a shot at winning. However El Duque can't be counted on to fill a starter's role anymore.


I know this too, Im the one groaning about our offense all year, but at the same time SOX fans are still saying , with the bases loaded, to make contact, get the big hit, dont strike out, dont pop up.

TornLabrum
09-17-2005, 03:41 PM
I disagree. I think the offense is performing exactly as should be expected, more or less. It's the pitchers who carry the Sox, not the hitters. This team has never been very good swinging the bats and I'm sure Bill Melton knows it.

BUT...You can't expect the pitching to limit the other team's offense to scoring less than two runs per game. OUR offense has to score at least a couple of runs per game.

That said, except for Garland last night, the starting pitching lately has sucked.

infohawk
09-17-2005, 03:41 PM
See, this is the part I'm not buying. The Sox hitters aren't the problem. They've never been very good. They've been in the bottom-third of the A.L. all season.

It's the Sox pitchers that give the team a shot at winning. However El Duque can't be counted on to fill a starter's role anymore.
That's exactly right. I'm not giving up on this season, but KW has some work to do in the offseason. He's got to get some more .OBP into the line-up. Our offense is good enough to win as long as the pitching is as dominant as it was over the first four months. Our problems began when the starting pitching went from awesome to good to inconsistent. Same thing happened to Oakland last year. The big three didn't perform down the stretch for the first time in a few years. It would be great if we could get another player with high .OBP to hit second in the order. We could then drop Iguchi into a run-producing slot.

chisoxfanatic
09-17-2005, 03:43 PM
Melton is saying our OFFENSE is letting us down here down the stretch .........

Well, the offense hasn't been outstanding for much of the season. The pitching is tired, because it went gung-ho for four months with virtually no weaknesses. With them tired, and an inept offense, it's something of a surprise that they've been able to garner as many wins as they have currently.

Let's get back at it tomorrow!

harwar
09-17-2005, 03:44 PM
"ladies and gentlemen .. santana"(from woodstock)
Man that guy is unhittable to us.
I never expected to win this game so i'm not upset.
Now tomorrow is a different story.
I fully expect a win on sunday.
Kyle Lohse someone we should be able to beat.

chidonez
09-17-2005, 03:45 PM
The only thing to be concerned about here is that we flat-out can't hit! That was pathetic, even against Johan.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 03:50 PM
This loss shouldn't come as a surprise. Santana's the best in the AL, and we were throwing a guy who shouldn't even be int he rotation.

Good point. Santana beats a lot of teams. They won't be facing (hopefully) a pitcher this tough the rest of the season. This loss doesn' surprise me.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 03:51 PM
The SOX hitters are gonna have to do something, talk amongst themselves and its gutcheck time, because the PITCHING against them is only going to get better down the stretch ......... They cant expect to score 1 run every game out

Flight #24
09-17-2005, 03:51 PM
I'm not here defending the offense all season, but in September, they haven't been the problem, hitting .299 going into today's game as a team.

As PHG noted, it's the pitching. Were out starters doing what they did earlier, we'd probably be looking stronger than ever down the stretch.

southsideirish71
09-17-2005, 03:59 PM
I'm not here defending the offense all season, but in September, they haven't been the problem, hitting .299 going into today's game as a team.

As PHG noted, it's the pitching. Were out starters doing what they did earlier, we'd probably be looking stronger than ever down the stretch.

We have faced the Royals 2 times, Detroit, Boston. These are not good pitching teams.

We padded our stats against crappy teams, and have not done a thing this year against good pitchers.

veeter
09-17-2005, 03:59 PM
Strike outs have to be addressed in the off-season. Anderson had better get a fair shake for one of the outfield spots. As for now keep grinding. I have a good feeling that they will kill Cleveland.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 04:00 PM
Melton thinks that if the Indians end up winning at least 2 of 3 against KC
or take all 3 against KC, El Duque probably wont pitching against them.
Said these games against the Tribe are huge now, but mostly for Indians, because they "need" to win the games against us (not to bring up "need" vs want again) and they still control their destiny, but the playoffs could be anyone now, and were not a lock. Says noone wants to face the Indians
right now ..........

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 04:01 PM
Melton and Doggin pointed out something that does make me feel better right now. Angel fans and Red Sox fans cant be feeling much better.

FielderJones
09-17-2005, 04:01 PM
The odds have to favor the Twins greatly whenever Santana is on the hill. Can't we just acknowledge that the guy is a great pitcher and great pitchers do what he did to our offense?

Same goes for Nathan. Yeah, bases loaded zero out, but that's what great relief pitchers do.

I can't get too worked up over a situation where the odds favored the other team.

Now tomorrow is different. The odds greatly favor us. Contreras is 9-1 over his last 10. Lohse is 2-8. If we crap the bed tomorrow, I will be pissed.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 04:04 PM
We padded our stats against crappy teams, and have not done a thing this year against good pitchers.

Umm... if "good pitchers" are good, don't you think everybody's lineup struggles against them? They're good, right?

:?:

southsideirish71
09-17-2005, 04:05 PM
The odds have to favor the Twins greatly whenever Santana is on the hill. Can't we just acknowledge that the guy is a great pitcher and great pitchers do what he did to our offense?

Same goes for Nathan. Yeah, bases loaded zero out, but that's what great relief pitchers do.

I can't get too worked up over a situation where the odds favored the other team.

Now tomorrow is different. The odds greatly favor us. Contreras is 9-1 over his last 10. Lohse is 2-8. If we crap the bed tomorrow, I will be pissed.

As great as Bob Feller or Sandy Kofax where I am sure that someone can make contact. Maybe its an out, maybe its a single. But going up and just swiping at the ball is not a good effort.

Losing to Santana isnt what bothers me. Its a bunch of guys not changing their approach. Its bases loaded, no outs, and people King silly.

ChiSoxGirl
09-17-2005, 04:06 PM
Melton and Doggin pointed out something that does make me feel better right now. Angel fans and Red Sox fans cant be feeling much better.

And to add to that, he commented that most teams, such as the aforementioned Angels & Red Sox, would kill for a 4 game lead in their respective divisions! He's right, ya know....

chidonez
09-17-2005, 04:06 PM
The odds have to favor the Twins greatly whenever Santana is on the hill. Can't we just acknowledge that the guy is a great pitcher and great pitchers do what he did to our offense?

You're not a great team unless you can beat great pitchers. Cleveland has good pitchers too (CC, Milwood, etc.). It's no excuse...

MarySwiss
09-17-2005, 04:07 PM
Umm... if "good pitchers" are good, don't you think everybody's lineup struggles against them? They're good, right?

:?:

PHG, stop making sense. It just confuses people.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 04:09 PM
The odds have to favor the Twins greatly whenever Santana is on the hill. Can't we just acknowledge that the guy is a great pitcher and great pitchers do what he did to our offense?...........................
Now tomorrow is different. The odds greatly favor us. Contreras is 9-1 over his last 10. Lohse is 2-8. If we crap the bed tomorrow, I will be pissed.

I think what had me worried about this series, was the fact I knew we were playing the Twinks, with Santana going in game 2, knowing we would most likely expect to win only 2 of 3. But the Indians are playing KC and very likely are going to SWEEEP them. What does that mean? Means the Tribe gains yet another game on us, and that realistically, were going to go into the series playing them on Monday with a 3.5 Game Lead. I also dont foresee El Duque facing the Tribe, or pitching anymore. BMcCarthy should be pitching.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 04:12 PM
First, a tip of the cap to the posters in this thread. I was sure it was going to be the usual "burn the furniture, the tax collector is knocking on our door" sort of panic-o-rama. You guys (mostly) have been keeping your cool.
:thumbsup:

Here's a bit of positive news to consider. As much as the Sox rotation has fallen back to earth, they are still healthy compared to the rag arms we started in the '00 ALDS. I think every guy we started had at least one cortisone shot before September was over.

And yet those same pitchers left it ALL on the field vs. Seattle. They (Parque, Sirotka & Baldwin) all pitched well enough to win. It was the bats that let the team down.

I'm very hopeful our starters will do their best when it really counts and I think Garland showed it last night. I also think El Duque flunked his playoff rehearsal today and I'm not complaining because I doubt Ozzie is considering him for anything but bullpen work from now on. I would rather know El Duque can't start now than anytime from September 30 onward.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-17-2005, 04:14 PM
I disagree. I think the offense is performing exactly as should be expected, more or less. It's the pitchers who carry the Sox, not the hitters. This team has never been very good swinging the bats and I'm sure Bill Melton knows it.

September Runs: 12, 9, 6, 2, 5, 6, 1, 2, 5, 5, 1, 6, 9, 5, 2, 0. Of the 6 games we scored less than 5 runs (out of 16 played) we went 3-3. Conclusion - the offense hasn't been the issue and in fact gives me even more optimism for the playoffs.

We will not start El Duque in the playoffs (hopefully McCarthy will replace in the stretch drive). Our bullpen is still very good and Marte may also have his head back on straight.

I like our matchups against Cleveland next week and think we will take 2 of 3 or 3 of 3 if Garcia is on.

SABRSox
09-17-2005, 04:15 PM
I think what had me worried about this series, was the fact I knew we were playing the Twinks, with Santana going in game 2, knowing we would most likely expect to win only 2 of 3. But the Indians are playing KC and very likely are going to SWEEEP them. What does that mean? Means the Tribe gains yet another game on us, and that realistically, were going to go into the series playing them on Monday with a 3.5 Game Lead. I also dont foresee El Duque facing the Tribe, or pitching anymore. BMcCarthy should be pitching.

We get Santana again in the final series with MIN later this week. Another effort like today's and you can forget about that game. The focus needs to be in Cleveland. Take 2 of 3 and I think we can all relax a little. Somehow, someway, the momentum Cleveland has built up needs to be steamrolled.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 04:17 PM
Levineline on now, saying Fridays win was "huge", knowing they were going to face Santana on Saturday. Saying tomorrows game is "huge", but that the rest of the games are all probably "huge" now from here on out. Said SOX fans should not look with dread with the series coming up, they should look at it as "finally a way put this team away". Says Crisp, Sizemore, Hafner, Broussard are a very Potent offensive force and the SOX have to stand up and say "this is our time now".

veeter
09-17-2005, 04:22 PM
I agree with Levine. The Tribe gets shut down by good pitching: hence the 10-3 mark. I like our chances bigtime. I will forever hate the Twins for tanking against the Tribe and moving Santana for today. They are scum and I wish them many 100 loss seasons.

tstrike2000
09-17-2005, 04:26 PM
If we lose tomorrow and the Indians sweep the hapless Royals, we're done. Look for the Sox to be sitting their corpseball asses at home come October.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 04:27 PM
If we lose tomorrow and the Indians sweep the hapless Royals, we're done. Look for the Sox to be sitting their corpseball asses at home come October.

DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

SUPERLATIVE ALERT! SUPERLATIVE ALERT!

:rolleyes:

JRIG
09-17-2005, 04:27 PM
If we lose tomorrow and the Indians sweep the hapless Royals, we're done. Look for the Sox to be sitting their corpseball asses at home come October.

Actually, and I know this might be tough to understand, but if the Sox lose tomorrow and the Injuns win, we'd be at worst still 2.5 games up.

Plus we have six different opportunities to put them away.

So, there you go.

veeter
09-17-2005, 04:27 PM
If we lose tomorrow and the Indians sweep the hapless Royals, we're done. Look for the Sox to be sitting their corpseball asses at home come October. I know you're frusterated but trust me, it's going to end up the right way.

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 04:28 PM
I agree with Levine. The Tribe gets shut down by good pitching: hence the 10-3 mark. I like our chances bigtime........................................... I will forever hate the Twins for tanking against the Tribe and moving Santana for today. They are scum and I wish them many 100 loss seasons.

Tribe werent hitting, allowing us to be 10-3. Theyre hitting now.
Did the Twinks move Santana to today just to face us? that is bogus.

samram
09-17-2005, 04:28 PM
If we lose tomorrow and the Indians sweep the hapless Royals, we're done. Look for the Sox to be sitting their corpseball asses at home come October.

Really? I wasn't aware that having a 2.5 game lead with 14 left eliminated a team. Must be the new math.

Chisox353014
09-17-2005, 04:33 PM
Well, you know you're behind the 8 ball whenever you face a pitcher like Santana, especially with the way he's owned us in the past. So, I'm not surprised or angry about losing today. I am royally disappointed in Hernandez, however. If this is the best he can do in a big game for us, forget it.

I'm also done looking at countdowns, scenarios and what-ifs for the time being. We have 2 weeks to go and each day we wake up with the Sox in first will be a good one. And as long as they win at least one game against Cleveland, the absolute worst-case scenario means we wake up Friday morning still in first place. No worries here. :gulp:

Unregistered
09-17-2005, 04:34 PM
Actually, and I know this might be tough to understand, but if the Sox lose tomorrow and the Injuns win, we'd be at worst still 2.5 games up.

Plus we have six different opportunities to put them away.

So, there you go.
Yeah, I really don't understand the logic. Even if we go into the next series TIED with the Indians (which is impossible, obviously) we STILL have to PLAY 6 games with them. Doesn't anyone who is saying "we're done" want to wait until we've played those games before giving up?

It's like people just don't understand how standings work. If we were DOWN 3.5 or 2.5 going into the series with them, I'd be saying we're in a lot of trouble, but all we have to do is basically not get swept. If we can't manage to win 2 out of 6 games from the ****ing Indians - well, then the Sox got what they deserve. To sit home during playoff time.

chidonez
09-17-2005, 04:40 PM
There's no way I would predict they are done at this point, but neither am I confident that they're going to make it. We all know baseball is a streaky game. We've been flat lately (which can't be denied) and the Indians are on fire. These are not promising trends, especially if our boys are starting to panic. We need a spark, like Boston had last year when one of their players got hit. It's time for the men in black to get pissed (just not at eachother).

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 04:41 PM
....
It's like people just don't understand how standings work. If we were DOWN 3.5 or 2.5 going into the series with them, I'd be saying we're in a lot of trouble, but all we have to do is basically not get swept. If we can't manage to win 2 out of 6 games from the ****ing Indians - well, then the Sox got what they deserve. To sit home during playoff time.

Works for me. The Sox must earn their playoff spot and if they don't earn it I say they never should have gotten it in the first place.

But for posters to throw in the towel when the games are still unplayed -- and the Sox have a lead????

Well, I'm just speechless.
:cool:

Hangar18
09-17-2005, 04:41 PM
Really? I wasn't aware that having a 2.5 game lead with 14 left eliminated a team. Must be the new math.

Tribune math says that other team is still in the Hunt for October

Jjav829
09-17-2005, 04:54 PM
Come on, did anyone actually think we would win this game? Santana owns us. I had this pegged as a loss from the get-go. I didn't listen to the game, but I happened to check Yahoo after Santana had 5 K's through 6 batters. My first thought was, "This guy is either striking out 20 today or throwing a perfect game, possibly both." When I found out the result of the game, I was just happy to hear that he didn't accomplish either of those feats. :smile:

Santana just owns us. Look at what he has done against this team in the past 2 years.

2004:
5/23 - 3 IP, 10 H, 7 ER, 2 K, 2 BB - The exception
7/1 - 8 IP, 3 H, 2 ER, 12 K, 2 BB
7/27 - 6 IP, 2 H, 1 ER, 6 K, 2 BB
9/14 - 7 IP, 2 H, 0 ER, 7 K, 1 BB

2005:
4/10 - 7 IP, 7 H, 2 ER, 11 K, 1 BB
8/17 - 8.1 IP, 6 H, 1 ER, 10 K, 1 BB
8/23 - 8 IP, 3 H, 0 ER, 7 K, 1 BB
9/17 - 8 IP, 4 H, 0 ER, 13 K, 2 BB

Those are staggering numbers. So in 31.1 IP against the Sox this year, Santana has allowed 3 runs, 20 H, and 5 walks while striking out 41. It's basically a sure loss anytime we face him. The worst part is that we still have one more of these sure losses scheduled for Thursday. In fairness, it's not like he only does this against us. Santana is the best lefty in the game, with apologies to Dontrelle Willis. Santana does this against a lot of teams, but he sure does seem to love dominating us.

We'll see what the Indians do tonight. We have to hope for a win tomorrow and 2 out of 3 against the Indians. It's pretty simple how the Indians series works. If we take 2 out of 3 from the Indians, we really take control of the Central. If we sweep them, it's over for them, at least as far as the AL Central goes. If they take 2 out of 3, we let them back in. If they sweep us, we're in big trouble.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 04:56 PM
We'll see what the Indians do tonight. We have to hope for a win tomorrow and 2 out of 3 against the Indians. It's pretty simple how the Indians series works. If we take 2 out of 3 from the Indians, we really take control of the Central. If we sweep them, it's over for them, at least as far as the AL Central goes. If they take 2 out of 3, we let them back in. If they sweep us, we're in big trouble.

:hawk
"I luv it when you analyze."

Jjav829
09-17-2005, 04:59 PM
:hawk
"I luv it when you analyze."

I had to add my Tim McCarver submission for the day. :smile:

http://www.rlrassociates.net/images/baseball_tim_mccarver.jpg
"When you lose games to your division rivals late in the year, it really hurts your chances of winning your division."

BeviBall!
09-17-2005, 05:02 PM
This was a pathetic effort from all involved, in the middle of the playoff push. That said, it was completely expected.

Oh goody... another must-win game tomorrow. Can't wait. It's Kyle Lohse, not Carlos Silva. We better take advantage.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 05:03 PM
You can see how important the KC series was for the Sox. It would be nice to have a little breathing room. If you win 1 of 3 from Cleveland, they only gain a game in the standings.

MRKARNO
09-17-2005, 05:07 PM
:hawk
"I luv it when you analyze."

No, PHG, I think Hawk's comment went a little bit more like this:

:hawk
"JJav? In the booth as an analyst? Well where would you put him?"
:)

RallyBowl
09-17-2005, 05:09 PM
anyone ever see that seinfeld episode where george does the opposite of his instinct and his life get's better... while elaines get's worse, and at the end she says "can you see what is happening? i've become george! i've become george!"


that's how i feel right now... we've become the cubs.

:angry:

god must hate us or something.


??????


No, you've become a scrub fan. And yes, God does hate you.:rolleyes:

slavko
09-17-2005, 05:11 PM
If this season turns into a collapse/choke, it could be the major factor in a 70 year old owner who has spent his life dreaming of a World Series Championship deciding to pack it in. (I was thinking threaten to move the team to the Philippines and rename it the Manila Folders but I didn't say it.)

3rdgensoxfan
09-17-2005, 05:16 PM
I'm really tired of the excuses. You're not going to win if you expect to lose and that's the feeling I've gotten with this team during the second half of the season. They've been flat ever since they got swept by the A's going into the All Star Break.

I'm an optimist about the White Sox but I don't like this one bit. We started the season with two eight-game win streaks. 3-7 in our last ten isn't going to cut it. No offense (and even less timely hitting) and streaky pitching .. .. It's like last year's team and the previous teams minus the homeruns, at this point.

After saying all that, Go Sox!. . .take two out of three in the series.

Huisj
09-17-2005, 05:16 PM
By a good starter, I mean someone who is established somewhat in the league (not a 19 year old rookie) and who is in the midst of a good season.

I'm looking at the schedule and I'm having trouble finding when the last time the offense was decent against someone good.

They beat Schilling on Labor Day, but he's not been good this year.
They beat Bonderman the day before that, so I guess that sort of counts, but they won that game because Garland pitched a shutout.
They beat Randy Johnson with the 1 inning homerun assault on August 21, so maybe that's sort of, although again, he hasn't been great this year.

The recent track record against good starters is not so good. What can make this offense click again?

BeviBall!
09-17-2005, 05:23 PM
Does Mike Wood count?

RallyBowl
09-17-2005, 05:26 PM
If this season turns into a collapse/choke, it could be the major factor in a 70 year old owner who has spent his life dreaming of a World Series Championship deciding to pack it in. (I was thinking threaten to move the team to the Philippines and rename it the Manila Folders but I didn't say it.)

Manilla Folders! That's funny!:thumbsup:

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 05:30 PM
Many teams don't beat a good starter. A good starter wins at least 6 out of 10 starts. So you have 4 times a good starter gets beat. If you can't you try to beat their bullpen.

To beat a good starter you have to make contact and not wiff all the time, take advantage of walks. All that stuff the Sox did the 1st half.

Dan H
09-17-2005, 05:31 PM
The bottom line is the Sox won only two games this calender week. As far as being 10-3 against the Indians, Cleveland was a much better team than the last time the Sox faced them. You can throw that mark out the window.

FielderJones
09-17-2005, 05:31 PM
Manilla Folders! That's funny!:thumbsup:

You must be young. That's a 1969 Flubs joke.

veeter
09-17-2005, 05:42 PM
Tribe werent hitting, allowing us to be 10-3. Theyre hitting now.
Did the Twinks move Santana to today just to face us? that is bogus.We swept them right out of the All star break AFTER they were playing good ball. It is my opinion that they moved Santana to face the Sox. You have to know the Twins want nothing more than for the Sox to blow this.

slavko
09-17-2005, 05:43 PM
You must be young. That's a 1969 Flubs joke. I'm old. I recycled it. So are you. Manila has one "l". Vanilla Has two.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 05:57 PM
We swept them right out of the All star break AFTER they were playing good ball. It is my opinion that they moved Santana to face the Sox. You have to know the Twins want nothing more than for the Sox to blow this.
There is no doubt. They wanted to maximize the number of starts Santana would get against us, and this was the way. On the Twins broadcast last night, all they did was update the Indians game, talking with a smirk about how the Sox could be collapsing.

I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED"

These people need to get lives. Gardenhire needs to quit being such a jagoff. Great job, Ron. Your team sucks all year, so you try to load up your ONE difference maker for a chance to beat the Sox and take some joy out of a miserable season. **** You.

mdep524
09-17-2005, 06:06 PM
I didn't listen to or follow the game today, but I saw the lineups and box score and had to bring this up again:

Why doesn't Ozzie EVER start a left handed hitter against Santana?? We're talking about the premier left handed off speed/screwball pitcher in the game and we stack the line up entirely with righties. I like Ozzie, but this is the stupidest idea in the world... and he does it EVERY time!

I understand Ozzie likes to play lefty-righty match ups, but does he have any idea how it is reversed when facing Santana? Righties have continued to flail away at his screwball/change up all year. It's no surprise the Indians balanced line up was able to touch up Santana earlier this week- including a home run by left-handed hitting Grady Sizemore.

We're not talking about Randy Johnson or Andy Sisco here. Santana is an entirely different type of pitcher, and Ozzie needs to adjust and at least give him a different look. When we see him again next week, I hope Ozzie tries a more balanced line up and doesn't just superficially stack up righties.

iamkoza
09-17-2005, 06:10 PM
There is no doubt. They wanted to maximize the number of starts Santana would get against us, and this was the way. On the Twins broadcast last night, all they did was update the Indians game, talking with a smirk about how the Sox could be collapsing.

I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED"

These people need to get lives. Gardenhire needs to quit being such a jagoff. Great job, Ron. Your team sucks all year, so you try to load up your ONE difference maker for a chance to beat the Sox and take some joy out of a miserable season. **** You.

At least people can stop complaining about lack of media attention. If the twins really are loading up for the sox.... why'd they start a rookie last night? If you had nothing to play for, wouldn't you want your best guys going against the best team in your division?

Jurr
09-17-2005, 06:11 PM
At least people can stop complaining about lack of media attention. If the twins really are loading up for the sox.... why'd they start a rookie last night? If you had nothing to play for, wouldn't you want your best guys going against the best team in your division?
That's because they just found out Silva wasn't coming back and had to go under the knife, genius.

iamkoza
09-17-2005, 06:14 PM
That's because they just found out Silva wasn't coming back and had to go under the knife, genius.


you still didnt answer my question, genius. Stop whining and grow a pair. Teams SHOULD be gearing up to take on a division leader.

veeter
09-17-2005, 06:18 PM
There is no doubt. They wanted to maximize the number of starts Santana would get against us, and this was the way. On the Twins broadcast last night, all they did was update the Indians game, talking with a smirk about how the Sox could be collapsing.

I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED"

These people need to get lives. Gardenhire needs to quit being such a jagoff. Great job, Ron. Your team sucks all year, so you try to load up your ONE difference maker for a chance to beat the Sox and take some joy out of a miserable season. **** You. Right on the nose. If I had a dollar for every smart ass smirk on a Twin last night, I'd be rich. They are loving this to the point where I'll alway believe they threw those games against Cleveland. Santana just didn't have it against them, hmm. I will add though, that the Sox disgraced themselves in K.C.

beckett21
09-17-2005, 06:21 PM
No need to point fingers. The Sox just need to take care of their own business. Period.

If they do, then they have nothing to worry about.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 06:24 PM
Apparently, when you have a player get evaluated on an iffy leg, and you find out in a pinch that he can't go, you have to call either pitch an emergency starter or go with an extended bullpen and try to patch a game together. The Twins opted to go with an emergency starter, and that's why Baker had to go.

Gardenhire knew what he was doing when he set Santana back to Saturday. If Santana really had a badly split fingernail and a real issue, he wouldn't have been able to miraculously recover to a degree that he could pitch a Cy Young quality game only three days later. This move got Santana not one but TWO starts against the Sox in the next week. Some guys have your number, and Santana definitely has the Sox' number. If you watched the Twins broadcast last night (including the 2 inning interview with Hunter), you know that's all the Twins care about is spoiling the Sox right now.

I wouldn't have a gripe if the Twins were being straightforward and beat us with the guys that were intended to be out there. By shuffling a rotation around just to maximize their odds on spoiling a team, they're showing a lack of class and are trying to slap the Sox in the face. If that doesn't get the Sox riled up to win the series tomorrow, I don't know what will.

By the way, everybody should check Baseball Prospectus for the playoff percentages update. The season is simulated 1,000,000 times and results are tabulated. The Sox are still 96.5% certain of being in the playoffs. There are definitely enough wins on the schedule to be had to lock this thing up. No worries.

MarySwiss
09-17-2005, 06:25 PM
There is no doubt. They wanted to maximize the number of starts Santana would get against us, and this was the way. On the Twins broadcast last night, all they did was update the Indians game, talking with a smirk about how the Sox could be collapsing. I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED" These people need to get lives. Gardenhire needs to quit being such a jagoff. Great job, Ron. Your team sucks all year, so you try to load up your ONE difference maker for a chance to beat the Sox and take some joy out of a miserable season. **** You.

Jurr, I agree with every word. I, like you and every other true Sox fan, am pissed. My only question is, when are the Sox going to become pissed?

We've shown good defense all season. And even while we were losing two games to KC, we were proving we have an offense. Garland's performance in last night's game reinforced the fact that we have pitching.

So, as I see it, the Sox need to get their s*** together and start slapping people around again. Tomorrow against those ******* ******* Twins would be a good start. Followed up by a serious ass-whomping on Cleveland. And once the ship is righted, we can proceed to the business at hand. Winning the World Series. This year.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 06:34 PM
Jurr, I agree with every word. I, like you and every other true Sox fan, am pissed. My only question is, when are the Sox going to become pissed?

We've shown good defense all season. And even while we were losing two games to KC, we were proving we have an offense. Garland's performance in last night's game reinforced the fact that we have pitching.

So, as I see it, the Sox need to get their s*** together and start slapping people around again. Tomorrow against those ******* ******* Twins would be a good start. Followed up by a serious ass-whomping on Cleveland. And once the ship is righted, we can proceed to the business at hand. Winning the World Series. This year.
Also...one thing to remember.

Everybody's talking about the Sox getting their "mojo" back. Well, if I remember correctly, the White Sox' M.O. earlier in the year was concentrating on winning SERIES. 2 of 3....2 of 3....etc., etc. The Sox are in position to get that big series win tomorrow with our best guy at the moment going to the hill. If the Twins want to spoil us, then they can bring it on tomorrow.
I have a feeling the Sox win tomorrow and keep the magic numero falling.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 06:35 PM
There is no doubt. They wanted to maximize the number of starts Santana would get against us, and this was the way. On the Twins broadcast last night, all they did was update the Indians game, talking with a smirk about how the Sox could be collapsing.

I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED"

These people need to get lives. Gardenhire needs to quit being such a jagoff. Great job, Ron. Your team sucks all year, so you try to load up your ONE difference maker for a chance to beat the Sox and take some joy out of a miserable season. **** You.

Why get mad at the media for doing their job? They don't get attention for writing in a polyanna society. Keep in mind some media don't have the emotional investment as fans and they look at it as a collapse. Viking fans deal with this every season.

Why wouldn't Ron start Santana. The Twins are not out of it technically. Should he just quit? He's trying to win every game-hardly not a description of a jagoff. His team sucked because of injuries.

You should try being mad at another manager. While much of it is not his fault, saying they flat out stink is not the best pep talk or making better use of the talent by putting them on the field more. Maybe he is getting too much of a free pass on this. But remember he's still a rookie manager.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 06:42 PM
Right on the nose. If I had a dollar for every smart ass smirk on a Twin last night, I'd be rich. They are loving this to the point where I'll alway believe they threw those games against Cleveland. Santana just didn't have it against them, hmm. I will add though, that the Sox disgraced themselves in K.C.

How's this theory. I believe the Sox are throwing games under the order of Bud Selig to keep the pennant races interesting so baseball will still get a lot of revenue and rating shares during the beginning of the NFL season. The NBA didn't want the Bulls doing a championship sweep.

That's it! It's got to be!

Chisox353014
09-17-2005, 06:43 PM
This was a pathetic effort from all involved, in the middle of the playoff push. That said, it was completely expected.

Oh goody... another must-win game tomorrow. Can't wait. It's Kyle Lohse, not Carlos Silva. We better take advantage.

Lohse has been a headcase lately. Didn't he bash in Gardenhire's office door after being pulled last week? We gotta take advantage tomorrow.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 06:44 PM
Why get mad at the media for doing their job? They don't get attention for writing in a polyanna society. Keep in mind some media don't have the emotional investment as fans and they look at it as a collapse. Viking fans deal with this every season.

Why wouldn't Ron start Santana. The Twins are not out of it technically. Should he just quit? He's trying to win every game-hardly not a description of a jagoff. His team sucked because of injuries.

You should try being mad at another manager. While much of it is not his fault, saying they flat out stink is not the best pep talk or making better use of the talent by putting them on the field more. Maybe he is getting too much of a free pass on this. But remember he's still a rookie manager.
It's not about starting Santana..it's about where he was started. He was placed in that spot with the sole intention of sticking it to the Sox.
I'm telling you...if you watched the Twins broadcast last night, you'd be aware of the extent of the Twins' ill will towards the Sox and their focus on nothing but trying to screw us over. That is all well and good IF they're legitimately doing it. However, my only gripe was that they shuffled their rotation around with NOTHING in mind but maximizing their winning chances against the Sox. Were they really concerned with beating the previous team on their schedule? Hell, no. They aren't playing for overall wins. They are playing for wins vs. us, period. It just gets under my skin. I hope it gets the Sox players pissed.

A. Cavatica
09-17-2005, 07:06 PM
I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED"


*****. The media is not trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. The Sox are doing it themselves. The media is just indulging everyone's instinct to rubberneck as they drive past an 11-car pileup.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 07:08 PM
It's not about starting Santana..it's about where he was started. He was placed in that spot with the sole intention of sticking it to the Sox.
I'm telling you...if you watched the Twins broadcast last night, you'd be aware of the extent of the Twins' ill will towards the Sox and their focus on nothing but trying to screw us over. That is all well and good IF they're legitimately doing it. However, my only gripe was that they shuffled their rotation around with NOTHING in mind but maximizing their winning chances against the Sox. Were they really concerned with beating the previous team on their schedule? Hell, no. They aren't playing for overall wins. They are playing for wins vs. us, period. It just gets under my skin. I hope it gets the Sox players pissed.

So you think the Twins should make it easy for the Sox? Did the Sox make it easy for the Twins last year? (don't answer that) So I guess the Twins aren't playing for overall wins? Why not? Do you think everyone manages like Jerry Manuel?
What if the scenario were reversed? Would you like it if the Sox were 9.5 out of the wild card and Ozzie decided to use Adkins against the Twins.

Well I guess we showed them. They decided to use Santana (CY candidate) against us and Ozzie showed them. He decided to go with El Duque instead of McCarthy. That will teach the Twins to mess with the Sox by using Santana out of turn.

MarySwiss
09-17-2005, 07:11 PM
It's not about starting Santana..it's about where he was started. He was placed in that spot with the sole intention of sticking it to the Sox.
I'm telling you...if you watched the Twins broadcast last night, you'd be aware of the extent of the Twins' ill will towards the Sox and their focus on nothing but trying to screw us over. That is all well and good IF they're legitimately doing it. However, my only gripe was that they shuffled their rotation around with NOTHING in mind but maximizing their winning chances against the Sox. Were they really concerned with beating the previous team on their schedule? Hell, no. They aren't playing for overall wins. They are playing for wins vs. us, period. It just gets under my skin. I hope it gets the Sox players pissed.

Again, Jurr hits the nail. Does anyone really believe the Twinks are just being competitive because they think they're still in it? Then why did they lay down and die last week against the Tribe?

This is not a manifestation of a conspiracy theory. Hell, Ron probably couldn't even spell "conspiracy." Or "theory," for that matter. (Maybe not even "Ron.") But again, bottom line, the Sox need to step up and pound mud in the Twins' ears.

AND they need to GET OVER their fear of Santana. I found it interesting that the TBGR was titled "Santana Won't Change His Evil Ways." My immediate reaction was "I Just Want Somebody That I Can Depend On." We will probably see Santana again in the next series. Whoopee. The team that lit up Randy Johnson not that long ago can do the same with this guy.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-17-2005, 07:14 PM
Just for the record it is customary that teams out of the playoff hunt are expected to play their best players against the contending teams. It's suppose to "protect the integrity of the game" blah blah blah...

I have no doubt the pinheads inside the Twins broadcast booth (and writing nonsense inside the sports section of the Minneapolis Star Tribune) truly hate the Sox and take great glee in any bit of misfortune to befall the Sox or the City of Chicago generally. That's just the kind of small town rubes they are. It will never change.

However I've seen precious little in what Ron Gardenhire says or does to think he singles out the Sox for any special revenge or retribution. He expects his players to perform the way he manages the club: to win.

This opinion is coming from a previously huge critic of Gardenhire. I've come to realize nearly all of the bull**** coming out of Minnenoplace is not from the Twins players or manager, but the tiny dick nobodies who cover the team up there in the woods. That psycho bitch with her blog is just the Creature they've created from years of harping about big bad Chicago.

Go after the Minnenoplace media all you want. For me, I'll need a lot more proof Gardenhire has any special vendetta against the Sox.

A. Cavatica
09-17-2005, 07:26 PM
For me, I'll need a lot more proof Gardenhire has any special vendetta against the Sox.

It's revenge for Wally Backman getting canned...

Dan H
09-17-2005, 07:35 PM
Also...one thing to remember.

Everybody's talking about the Sox getting their "mojo" back. Well, if I remember correctly, the White Sox' M.O. earlier in the year was concentrating on winning SERIES. 2 of 3....2 of 3....etc., etc. The Sox are in position to get that big series win tomorrow with our best guy at the moment going to the hill. If the Twins want to spoil us, then they can bring it on tomorrow.
I have a feeling the Sox win tomorrow and keep the magic numero falling.

I hope you're right. The next four games are absolutely crucial. The Sox have to rise to the occasion. If they lose three out of four, they will dig a hole that they will not be able to climb out of. Here's hoping the Royals win tonight.

Jjav829
09-17-2005, 07:35 PM
There is no doubt. They wanted to maximize the number of starts Santana would get against us, and this was the way. On the Twins broadcast last night, all they did was update the Indians game, talking with a smirk about how the Sox could be collapsing.

I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED"

These people need to get lives. Gardenhire needs to quit being such a jagoff. Great job, Ron. Your team sucks all year, so you try to load up your ONE difference maker for a chance to beat the Sox and take some joy out of a miserable season. **** You.

Give me a break. This is all on the Sox. You can try to blame whoever you want, but the Sox did this to themselves. The media is simply doing their job by covering what could be one of the biggest collapses ever. If you don't think that's big news, I don't know what is.

And Gardenhire did exactly what we'd be calling for Ozzie to do in the same situation. If the situations were switched and we were out of it and the Twins in danger of blowing a 15 game lead, everyone here would want Ozzie to move Buehrle back so that he could face the Twins twice. This is what teams that are out of the playoff picture do to teams fighting to make the playoffs. They try to play spoiler. You actually think our biggest rival is going to take it easy on us? Did you actually expect Gardenhire to say, "Oh well, they have had a good season. Sure, their dominance early on, including against us, is a large reason why we're not going to the playoffs. But what the hell, let's take it easy on them and let them win a game or two here."

Jurr
09-17-2005, 07:36 PM
Just for the record it is customary that teams out of the playoff hunt are expected to play their best players against the contending teams. It's suppose to "protect the integrity of the game" blah blah blah...

I have no doubt the pinheads inside the Twins broadcast booth (and writing nonsense inside the sports section of the Minneapolis Star Tribune) truly hate the Sox and take great glee in any bit of misfortune to befall the Sox or the City of Chicago generally. That's just the kind of small town rubes they are. It will never change.

However I've seen precious little in what Ron Gardenhire says or does to think he singles out the Sox for any special revenge or retribution. He expects his players to perform the way he manages the club: to win.

This opinion is coming from a previously huge critic of Gardenhire. I've come to realize nearly all of the bull**** coming out of Minnenoplace is not from the Twins players or manager, but the tiny dick nobodies who cover the team up there in the woods. That psycho bitch with her blog is just the Creature they've created from years of harping about big bad Chicago.

Go after the Minnenoplace media all you want. For me, I'll need a lot more proof Gardenhire has any special vendetta against the Sox.
Yeah..fair enough.
Whether it was "strategically and spitefully planned" or not, the fact is the Sox have one more to go against Santana. They have to be at least combative against this chump and try to put something together. Work his ass out to the point he's gotta leave the game after 6 innings...SOMETHING!

If the Sox make it to and through the playoffs (fingers crossed), they're going to have to man up against good pitching...Colon, Carpenter, Clement, Schilling, R.Johnson, Sabathia, Lee....the list goes on and on.
It would be very beneficial if next Friday, they can find a way to scratch out a 3-2 or 2-1 victory vs. the Twins on Santana's next start. Not only to get another win, but to stick it to the proverbial thorn in our asses.

tstrike2000
09-17-2005, 07:37 PM
DANGER WILL ROBINSON! DANGER!

SUPERLATIVE ALERT! SUPERLATIVE ALERT!

:rolleyes:

Sorry George about the superlative. I'm just saying that the Sox are done in the hopes that I will be wrong. Granted it was Santana, but the offense today was probably one of the worst I've seen and we've had many since Aug. 1st. I would love to be wrong in this case. So the Sox don't look like they have the answer. I would love to see them find one, believe me.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 07:40 PM
Give me a break. This is all on the Sox. You can try to blame whoever you want, but the Sox did this to themselves. The media is simply doing their job by covering what could be one of the biggest collapses ever. If you don't think that's big news, I don't know what is.

And Gardenhire did exactly what we'd be calling for Ozzie to do in the same situation. If the situations were switched and we were out of it and the Twins in danger of blowing a 15 game lead, everyone here would want Ozzie to move Buehrle back so that he could face the Twins twice. This is what teams that are out of the playoff picture do to teams fighting to make the playoffs. They try to play spoiler. You actually think our biggest rival is going to take it easy on us? Did you actually expect Gardenhire to say, "Oh well, they have had a good season. Sure, their dominance early on, including against us, is a large reason why we're not going to the playoffs. But what the hell, let's take it easy on them and let them win a game or two here."
I'm with you. All the Sox have to do to shut everyone up is win. Period. If they don't, they have nobody to blame but themselves. Hopefully, they stay true to the theme of the year and do what they need to to shut every doubter up.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 07:42 PM
Again, Jurr hits the nail. Does anyone really believe the Twinks are just being competitive because they think they're still in it? Then why did they lay down and die last week against the Tribe?


I think there is another team we should be concerned about laying down and dieing.

Could you actually consider that the Tribe actually won those games?
Or did most of the American league lay down and die so the Sox could have an incredible record the 1st half?

Take your tin foil hats off.

It's very Cub fan like to blame another team for the Sox failures.
We are starting to embarass ourselves.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 07:46 PM
I think there is another team we should be concerned about laying down and dieing.

Could you actually consider that the Tribe actually won those games?
Or did most of the American league lay down and die so the Sox could have an incredible record the 1st half?

Take your tin foil hats off.

It's very Cub fan like to blame another team for the Sox failures.
We are starting to embarass ourselves.
No ****. I was lashing out. No sleep, long night, and waking up only to be pissed. That was very = Cub fan.
There are no curses. There are no "conspiracies". Everyone does in fact want the Sox to choke this away but us. The Sox have to win and quit feeling sorry for themselves.

TornLabrum
09-17-2005, 07:46 PM
There is no doubt. They wanted to maximize the number of starts Santana would get against us, and this was the way. On the Twins broadcast last night, all they did was update the Indians game, talking with a smirk about how the Sox could be collapsing.

I for one am absolutely pissed off and tired of the ****ing media trying to put extra pressure on the Sox. They better not be reading what's out there. Every time you see anything out of ESPN or anywhere else, they're talking about "POSSIBLE HISTORIC COLLAPSE"..."TWINS FACE FLAILING SOX"....."SLIDING, SUCKING, SLUMPING SOX ON THE BRINK OF ****TING THE BED"

These people need to get lives. Gardenhire needs to quit being such a jagoff. Great job, Ron. Your team sucks all year, so you try to load up your ONE difference maker for a chance to beat the Sox and take some joy out of a miserable season. **** You.

If these guys are the professionals they claim to be, then such headlines should not be "extra pressure." I don't even think it should be "added incentive," although it would be nice to think that it might be.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 07:47 PM
The season is simulated 1,000,000 times and results are tabulated. The Sox are still 96.5% certain of being in the playoffs. There are definitely enough wins on the schedule to be had to lock this thing up. No worries.

Maybe Ozzie could put some of those simulated players in the lineup.

Did the simulation include the Royals series? What were the chances (simulated) the Sox would sweep them?

Jurr
09-17-2005, 07:51 PM
If these guys are the professionals they claim to be, then such headlines should not be "extra pressure." I don't even think it should be "added incentive," although it would be nice to think that it might be.
Yeah..if all of this crap isn't something to rally around, I don't know what is.
At the beginning of the year, the media and baseball people in general thought the Sox didn't have what it took to come close to winning the division. That has been proven wrong up to this point.

Now, you have everyone and their mother wanting to see the Sox fall. The media would love to have it happen, the Cubs fans would love it, the Twins are trying their asses off to make it happen, and the Tribe is doing their fair share as well.

The Sox need to rediscover that chip they had on their shoulders and take care of business, just like they did at the beginning of the year. That started with winning series. Every damn series was 2 games to 1 win for the Sox. We talked earlier in another post that this final stretch is much like the NFL season. Well, a win tomorrow is a 2 games to 1 series win and a great building block. Our quasi-NFL record would stand at 2-1. No problems. Just get it done, Sox. Us against the world.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 07:55 PM
No ****. I was lashing out.

It's part of being a fan. This is what places like this are for. It could be worse. You could be one of the people who go to a ballpark because it's there at the price of a night's stay at the Hilton and act cool talking on your cell phone calling all your friends saying you're at the game.

veeter
09-17-2005, 07:57 PM
How's this theory. I believe the Sox are throwing games under the order of Bud Selig to keep the pennant races interesting so baseball will still get a lot of revenue and rating shares during the beginning of the NFL season. The NBA didn't want the Bulls doing a championship sweep.

That's it! It's got to be! I guess I give you credit for not letting the Twins get under your skin. But if you don't think they sleep walked through those games against Cleveland you kidding yourself. That is not some complicated conspiracy, it's, "o.k. guys the gas pedal is half way down tonite, wink wink." The Sox have only themselves to blame but they are 9 and 7 this month, not 6 and 10.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 07:59 PM
At the beginning of the year, the media and baseball people in general thought the Sox didn't have what it took to come close to winning the division. That has been proven wrong up to this point.


Well nothing's proven yet until someone clinches this division.
The media have every reason to say the Sox don't have what it takes.
Look how many times the Sox were predicted to win the division before the season started. They've proved the media wrong. So lets hope they prove them wrong again.

jdm2662
09-17-2005, 08:02 PM
Gardenhire knew what he was doing when he set Santana back to Saturday. If Santana really had a badly split fingernail and a real issue, he wouldn't have been able to miraculously recover to a degree that he could pitch a Cy Young quality game only three days later. This move got Santana not one but TWO starts against the Sox in the next week. Some guys have your number, and Santana definitely has the Sox' number. If you watched the Twins broadcast last night (including the 2 inning interview with Hunter), you know that's all the Twins care about is spoiling the Sox right now.

I wouldn't have a gripe if the Twins were being straightforward and beat us with the guys that were intended to be out there. By shuffling a rotation around just to maximize their odds on spoiling a team, they're showing a lack of class and are trying to slap the Sox in the face. If that doesn't get the Sox riled up to win the series tomorrow, I don't know what will.
.

Your way off on this one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but back in '99 when the Sox were facing the Cubs, didn't Manuel alter the rotation for the Cubs series. If I remember correctly, the Cubs came off winning the wild card, and were in first place when the series started. The Sox were playing so-so ball all year, and focused on the Cubs series. The Sox swept the Cubs, and the Cubs started their down fall. They want their best started who owns the Sox pitch against him (and how the hell does Santana have an over 4 ERA at the start of the game against the Sox???). You also have the remember, many former Sox in 2001 and beyond kept saying they were better the Twins and they aren't worried about them. You don't think they want to spoil their season? This is all on the White Sox. Santana has been good this year, but not nearly invincible like he was the second half of last season. Why is it the White Sox have so many problems with him? He has their number, and it's the White Sox fault they haven't figured him out. If the White Sox aren't man enough to respond to this, how do you think they will respond in the playoffs?

Jurr
09-17-2005, 08:03 PM
It's part of being a fan. This is what places like this are for. It could be worse. You could be one of the people who go to a ballpark because it's there at the price of a night's stay at the Hilton and act cool talking on your cell phone calling all your friends saying you're at the game.
Yeah...that's true.
I'm about staying positive. I truly believe this team has enough in the tank to get it done. I must say..they've made my year pretty damn enjoyable. It's so nice to work on patients and deal with their issues when I am totally zoned out and whistlin' dixie.
The Sox losing puts me in a bad ju-ju, and I don't like it.
I believe the worst part of it is just about over. Things are going to turn around, and I firmly believe that.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 08:05 PM
Your way off on this one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but back in '99 when the Sox were facing the Cubs, didn't Manuel alter the rotation for the Cubs series. If I remember correctly, the Cubs came off winning the wild card, and were in first place when the series started. The Sox were playing so-so ball all year, and focused on the Cubs series. The Sox swept the Cubs, and the Cubs started their down fall. They want their best started who owns the Sox pitch against him (and how the hell does Santana have an over 4 ERA at the start of the game against the Sox???). You also have the remember, many former Sox in 2001 and beyond kept saying they were better the Twins and they aren't worried about them. You don't think they want to spoil their season? This is all on the White Sox. Santana has been good this year, but not nearly invincible like he was the second half of last season. Why is it the White Sox have so many problems with him? He has their number, and it's the White Sox fault they haven't figured him out. If the White Sox aren't man enough to respond to this, how do you think they will respond in the playoffs?
Alrighty there, Pedro...look a couple of pages down the road. This has already been addressed. Sorry for my half-brained and out of character rant earlier. I got the message. It's cool. Everybody wants the Sox out of it, and the Sox have to man up and get it done. Period.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 08:07 PM
Well nothing's proven yet until someone clinches this division.
The media have every reason to say the Sox don't have what it takes.
Look how many times the Sox were predicted to win the division before the season started. They've proved the media wrong. So lets hope they prove them wrong again.
Yeah..the Sox were picked an average of 3rd in the division (many 2nd place votes..and a lot of 4th place picks). They responded by being in 1st from day 1. Let's keep rooting on our boys and watch them go wire to wire with it.

kitekrazy
09-17-2005, 08:08 PM
But if you don't think they sleep walked through those games against Cleveland you kidding yourself.

I think I can accuse another team of doing the same thing except now it may bite them in the ass.

Minnesota has been in a big slump as well. Couldn't the A's, Angels, Yankees, Red Sox make the same accusation that the White Sox are trying to fix the wild card? If the Sox take the wild card spot, they eliminate one West Coast or East Coast team. I like the odds of a World Series if Oakland is out. I like the Sox chances against the Angels, Boston and Yankees and definitely Cleveland because their hot streak has a chance of ending in the playoffs.

Let's be a little more logical.

veeter
09-17-2005, 08:12 PM
Let's just win tomorrow.

Jurr
09-17-2005, 08:15 PM
Let's just win tomorrow.
****ing right! Well said. It's all about winning series. **** what the Indians do. If we win this series and then that series as well, we're in a beautiful position.

CallMeNuts
09-17-2005, 10:01 PM
I had hoped to go to the HumpDome for the series, but work made it impossible for me to be there for Friday or Sunday. So I decided to burn some of my excess frequent flyer miles for a one-day sojourn to see today's game. I left O'Hare at 8 am. Took public transport to the Dome. Saw the game. Took public transport back to the airport. I was able to hop on an earlier flight back. Got home by 5:15 pm.

While you can't win without scoring, Duque's performance was the most disappointing to me. If he keeps the game closer, maybe the Sox try to manufacture a run instead of free swinging. If Duque can get through 6 or 7 innings, the rest of the staff can stay rested for tomorrow and the Cleveland series. If Duque can keep the game close, then maybe he's the kind of big game pitcher we were all hoping for. But he's not. So it's time to send him to the pen for the rest of the year.

Instead, Oz wastes BMac in a losing effort. I was certainly disappointed that BMac didn't get the start today. But if Oz had to give Duque another chance today, I would have liked to see BMac saved for a start either tomorrow, Monday or Tuesday. We can make better use of him than mopping up after el puque. (sorry 'bout that.)

But you have to hand it to Santana. He made all our hitters look feeble today.

Tomorrow's another day. And a better pitching match-up for us. Time to take two of three and go into the Indians series on a win.

mike squires
09-18-2005, 12:31 AM
My jog which started, geez WHEN was it anyway...Wednesday, I've lost track of the days has turned into a 4 day trip across the state. I last visited with you in Peoria. It seems I am mostly on country roads and not a soul in sight most days/nights. I've passed through towns I never knew existed. Today, Woodhull and Andover and eventually into Moline. I've done a lot of thinking and have visited with some very interesting folk, not one a Sox fan and most don't follow baseball. A few towny bars have some knowledgable fans but I left when a guy started talking about the '69 Cubs. I've mostly been thinking about my allegiance with a team that was pretty much passed down to me by my father which he got from his father, none of us with a World Series title and remembering a conversation with him I had on Tuesday. We made plans for me to come visit in Indiana and watch game two of the ALDS. Like a train wreck I can't not look. The small towns I pass I glance at the paper to chec the baseball scores and my heart explodes every time. I know I can't turn back now and I'll probably end up taking a bus back to Champaign just in time to catch the Monday night game (I have tix) I knew I would not be able to grow a beard like Forest but I do have a Mr. Potato head beard going. I have about 80 small hairs with little spaces in between each hair. This has to end soon.