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cheeses_h_rice
09-16-2005, 11:23 PM
After tonight, the White Sox have 16 games remaining, the Tribe has 15.

The Sox are 89-57 and the Tribe is 85-62.

If the Sox can just split the 6 games against the Jndjans, that keeps the division lead static and takes 6 off the magic number, reducing it for the other remaining games to 7.

Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games, here's the chart for what the Sox could do and what Cleveland would have to do to tie them:

Sox: Anything 6-4 or better / Indians: eliminated
Sox: 5-5 / Indians: 9-0
Sox: 4-6 / Indians: 8-1
Sox: 3-7 / Indians: 7-2
Sox: 2-8 / Indians: 6-3
Sox: 1-9 / Indians: 5-4
Sox: 0-10 / Indians: 4-5

Chips
09-16-2005, 11:26 PM
After tonight, the White Sox have 16 games remaining, the Tribe has 15.

The Sox are 89-57 and the Tribe is 85-62.

If the Sox can just split the 6 games against the Jndjans, that keeps the division lead static and takes 6 off the magic number, reducing it for the other remaining games to 7.

Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games, here's the chart for what the Sox could do and what Cleveland would have to do to tie them:

Sox: Anything 6-4 or better / Indians: eliminated
Sox: 5-5 / Indians: 9-0
Sox: 4-6 / Indians: 8-1
Sox: 3-7 / Indians: 7-2
Sox: 2-8 / Indians: 6-3
Sox: 1-9 / Indians: 5-4
Sox: 0-10 / Indians: 4-5

Bring us the Central Division Title now.

MarySwiss
09-16-2005, 11:31 PM
After tonight, the White Sox have 16 games remaining, the Tribe has 15. The Sox are 89-57 and the Tribe is 85-62.
If the Sox can just split the 6 games against the Jndjans, that keeps the division lead static and takes 6 off the magic number, reducing it for the other remaining games to 7.

Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games, here's the chart for what the Sox could do and what Cleveland would have to do to tie them:

Sox: Anything 6-4 or better / Indians: eliminated
Sox: 5-5 / Indians: 9-0
Sox: 4-6 / Indians: 8-1
Sox: 3-7 / Indians: 7-2
Sox: 2-8 / Indians: 6-3
Sox: 1-9 / Indians: 5-4
Sox: 0-10 / Indians: 4-5

Cheeses, I love ya, but it's time for your pill, guy! We OWN Cleveland. So we will not split with them; we will win at least 4 of 6.

voodoochile
09-16-2005, 11:31 PM
I'll simplify it for you...

Sweep the toons, the division is ours. Nothing can change that at all. Yes, it would have made it very tough on them otherwise, but now it is a statistical certainty. 6-0 for all the marbles.

Cellview22
09-16-2005, 11:33 PM
I can't wait to hear the roar of the crowd at the Cell when we play Cleveland. It's gonna be the wildest atmosphere we've seen at the Cell ever!

A_ROW33
09-16-2005, 11:34 PM
I'll simplify it for you...

Sweep the toons, the division is ours. Nothing can change that at all. Yes, it would have made it very tough on them otherwise, but now it is a statistical certainty. 6-0 for all the marbles.

I like your thinking :cool:

cheeses_h_rice
09-16-2005, 11:43 PM
I'll simplify it for you...

Sweep the toons, the division is ours. Nothing can change that at all. Yes, it would have made it very tough on them otherwise, but now it is a statistical certainty. 6-0 for all the marbles.

I like the way you think, you crazy dreamer you!

6-0? Not likely, but I can see the Sox going 4-2, which would make the division race all over but the shouting.

ThatGuyOnTheL
09-16-2005, 11:49 PM
I can't wait to hear the roar of the crowd at the Cell when we play Cleveland. It's gonna be the wildest atmosphere we've seen at the Cell ever!

...and that's why someone should purchase the extra face-value ticket I have for sale in the Parking Lot right now! Thus concludes my shameless plug for my own post.

Seriously, this is what I thought about all along when I purchased tickets to the Sox-Toons series: I hoped it wouldn't come down to this, but what exciting baseball this late in September...

cheeses_h_rice
09-17-2005, 10:45 PM
Bad day. Sox lose, Jndjans win.

After tonight, the White Sox have 15 games remaining, the Tribe has 14.

The Sox are 89-58 and the Tribe is 86-62.

If the Sox can just split the 6 games against the Jndjans, that keeps the division lead static and takes 6 off the magic number, reducing it for the other remaining games to 6.

Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games, here's the chart for what the Sox could do and what Cleveland would have to do to tie them:

Sox: Anything 6-3 or better / Indians: eliminated
Sox: 5-4 / Indians: 8-0
Sox: 4-5 / Indians: 7-1
Sox: 3-6 / Indians: 6-2
Sox: 2-7 / Indians: 5-3
Sox: 1-8 / Indians: 4-4
Sox: 0-9 / Indians: 3-5

kittle42
09-17-2005, 11:00 PM
Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games

Deep pink? :D:

TomParrish79
09-17-2005, 11:13 PM
that makes me feel a little better cheeses thanks for posting the info its nice to know what we have to do to take the central.

I do agree taking all the games from the tribe would be the easiest way though lol but the way they are playing that will be tough

anyway it should be an exciting couple of weeks for us

MRKARNO
09-17-2005, 11:15 PM
Bad day. Sox lose, Jndjans win.

After tonight, the White Sox have 15 games remaining, the Tribe has 14.

The Sox are 89-58 and the Tribe is 86-62.

If the Sox can just split the 6 games against the Jndjans, that keeps the division lead static and takes 6 off the magic number, reducing it for the other remaining games to 7.

Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games, here's the chart for what the Sox could do and what Cleveland would have to do to tie them:

Sox: Anything 6-3 or better / Indians: eliminated
Sox: 5-4 / Indians: 8-0
Sox: 4-5 / Indians: 7-1
Sox: 3-6 / Indians: 6-2
Sox: 2-7 / Indians: 5-3
Sox: 1-8 / Indians: 4-4
Sox: 0-9 / Indians: 3-5

And we could split the 3 games, go 3-6, have the Tribe go 6-2 and win the one game playoff at Jacobs Field where we've gone 6-1 this season. (Not that we'll need to) :cool:

OzzieBall2004
09-17-2005, 11:39 PM
I apologize in advance for anyone sick of these threads, but it makes me feel better, so here goes...



If we go 11-4, Indians must go 14-0 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 10-5, Indians must go 13-1 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 9-6, Indians must go 12-2 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 8-7, Indians must go 11-3 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 7-8, Indians must go 10-4 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 6-9, Indians must go 9-5 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 5-10, Indians must go 8-6 to force a tiebreaker.

Personally, I think the Indians will go 9-5. So we must go 7-8 or better to win the Division outright.

A one game tiebreaker in Cleveland would be nutso.

Also, Baseball Prospectus (I know many hate that site) has us with a 96.5% chance of making the playoffs. In a simulation of all remaining games 1,000,000 times, we made the playoffs 965,841 times.

I hope this isn't one of the 34,159 times we didn't make it.

OzzieBall2004
09-17-2005, 11:44 PM
And we could split the 3 games, go 3-6, have the Tribe go 6-2 and win the one game playoff at Jacobs Field where we've gone 6-1 this season. (Not that we'll need to) :cool:

If it comes to that, the user number here will significantly drop. We'll have Mass Suicide threads.

MRKARNO
09-18-2005, 12:05 AM
If it comes to that, the user number here will significantly drop. We'll have Mass Suicide threads.

Actually the user number will increase as more people come here to bitch and moan about how it had to come to that last game. And yes those would be the same folks that were complaining about how we clinched too early in 2000. :smile:

hose
09-18-2005, 12:13 AM
CC Safathia is going against the Royals tomorrow , so the Sox will miss him.

MRKARNO
09-18-2005, 12:14 AM
CC Safathia is going against the Royals tomorrow , so the Sox will miss him.

The matchups are Garcia vs Millwood, Buehrle vs Westbrook and Garland vs Elarton.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-18-2005, 12:33 AM
The matchups are Garcia vs Millwood, Buehrle vs Westbrook and Garland vs Elarton.

If Garcia is recovered we could take all 3 with a series win at worst. Our offense has been on track after the brief few week slump in August. We will take these clowns to school next week and the Dark Clouds will have to find something else to cry about. There will be a run on bleach for people to clean the underwear they soiled over the past month so I suggest people stock up before the price spikes.

Milw
09-18-2005, 01:53 AM
Our offense has been on track after the brief few week slump in August.
Um ... did you miss the part where we've scored 2 runs over the past 19 innings?

I hope you're right -- I hate being a Dark Cloud. But damn, how do you people stay optimistic? Seriously, how? I want to.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-18-2005, 02:17 AM
Um ... did you miss the part where we've scored 2 runs over the past 19 innings?

I hope you're right -- I hate being a Dark Cloud. But damn, how do you people stay optimistic? Seriously, how? I want to.

Because the season is 162 games. We have the best record in the American League and have had it for most of the season.

In September we have played 16 games. In 10 of them we scored 5 or more runs. In the 6 we scored less than 5 runs we won 3 of the 6. Our offense is fine.

Those were the facts that led to my premise that the offense is back on track. If you score 5 or more runs in 2/3 of your games and get good starting pitching you will win many ballgames which is the reason why we have the best record in the American League. I only go by facts. i don't look to the press or others for my opinions. This isn't false optimism. There were times such as 1993 and 2000 I thought we were a clear underdog heading into the playoffs due to the inexperience of our starters. I think this club is built for a successful playoff run. All our starters have pitched for several years. We have a outstanding experienced bullpen and our fielding is in the top couple spots in MLB.

I've bet baseball and done pretty good at it (though I only bet know when in Vegas) the only sport other than hockey I feel I have a chance at doing well in. Baseball is a very long season and if you are to myopic you miss the big picture and can cost you money (if gambling) or grief (if rooting). The season is nearly complete and we have a very good ballclub. We aren't as "hot" as we were in June and July but Crede and Podsednik have returned and outside of Frank Thomas enter the playoffs at full strength.

In conclusion, I cannot speak for others but this is how I am and remain optimistic. Based on personal experience I also believe that one is happier when optimistic vs. worrying all the time - especially over events you cannot control. If you are always worried or skeptical you will never be able to enjoy what you are fearing will not happen (i.e. White Sox success).

HotelWhiteSox
09-18-2005, 02:32 AM
The only guy I'd be worried about is Milwood, just because he's been hot and most of the team has only seen him in his starts this year. I have no problem facing Westbrook (he pitched well his last start though), and Elarton doesn't scare me at all. Worst case scenario will be 2 out of 3 in my opinion, with me being there for a couple :)

harwar
09-18-2005, 08:52 AM
Yea,last i checked millwood was leading the league in era.
However;This will be exactly like a playoff series and our guys will win.
I don't know about the team but the indians tv guys were so excited last night that they could barely contain themselves.
Every inning against the royals they kept bringing up the White Sox-tribe series.
They are totally convinced that they will kick the crap out of us.
I hope i get the cleveland feed so that i can listen to them squirm when things don't go so well for them.
I don't think we sweep them but i think 2 out of 3 sounds about right.
First off,lets win today.

downstairs
09-18-2005, 09:32 AM
If we go 11-4, Indians must go 14-0 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 10-5, Indians must go 13-1 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 9-6, Indians must go 12-2 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 8-7, Indians must go 11-3 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 7-8, Indians must go 10-4 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 6-9, Indians must go 9-5 to force a tiebreaker.
If we go 5-10, Indians must go 8-6 to force a tiebreaker.


Don't forget everyone....

Even if the Indians and White Sox tie... we still win the division if the wild card team (i.e. Yanks) are worse than us/Cleveland. This is because The Sox and Cleveland would technically be tied for the division and the Wild Card.

In this situation, there is no tiebreaker game. The division goes to the team who has the better season record against the other team (I believe we've clinched that?)

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-18-2005, 10:17 AM
After tonight, the White Sox have 16 games remaining, the Tribe has 15.

The Sox are 89-57 and the Tribe is 85-62.

If the Sox can just split the 6 games against the Jndjans, that keeps the division lead static and takes 6 off the magic number, reducing it for the other remaining games to 7.

Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games, here's the chart for what the Sox could do and what Cleveland would have to do to tie them:

Sox: Anything 6-4 or better / Indians: eliminated
Sox: 5-5 / Indians: 9-0
Sox: 4-6 / Indians: 8-1
Sox: 3-7 / Indians: 7-2
Sox: 2-8 / Indians: 6-3
Sox: 1-9 / Indians: 5-4
Sox: 0-10 / Indians: 4-5

Good work cheeses. I swear...some people got so spoiled by a 15 game lead...like it happens every year. THIS is the best part of the season....people..teams streak...so when they go bad, they REBOUND AFTER THAT!

As they say at Great America..."Please remain seated in an upright position, and keep your hands inside the car at all times."

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-18-2005, 10:19 AM
The matchups are Garcia vs Millwood, Buehrle vs Westbrook and Garland vs Elarton.

If we get a good outing from the collective, we win two of three. Simple math.

RedHeadPaleHoser
09-18-2005, 10:21 AM
If it comes to that, the user number here will significantly drop. We'll have Mass Suicide threads.

Well, if nothing else, all the dark clouds self terminate. That, in itself, is a good thing. Leave the Core of the Core intact.

dannycater
09-18-2005, 12:04 PM
Well, if nothing else, all the dark clouds self terminate. That, in itself, is a good thing. Leave the Core of the Core intact.

The process of clearing out the doubters and questioners has already begun to be taken care of by the mods with the mass bannings....

If things go south for the Sox in the next couple of weeks all the "I told you so's" will be launched permanently from the board....

soxwon
09-18-2005, 12:23 PM
I'll simplify it for you...

Sweep the toons, the division is ours. Nothing can change that at all. Yes, it would have made it very tough on them otherwise, but now it is a statistical certainty. 6-0 for all the marbles.


Im missing something-Why do you call them the TOONS?

downstairs
09-18-2005, 12:31 PM
Im missing something-Why do you call them the TOONS?

Their logo is a cartoon Indian. Or, "Jndian" if you want to get creative with how you write your cursive letters.

TDog
09-18-2005, 12:35 PM
Im missing something-Why do you call them the TOONS?

The team that traditionally has used a racist cartoon for it's mascot has traditionally been referred to on WSI posts as "the Toons."

cheeses_h_rice
09-18-2005, 04:44 PM
I'll take it -- Jndjans gain no ground on us and another day melts off the calendar.

After tonight, the White Sox have 14 games remaining, the Tribe has 13.

The Sox are 90-58 and the Tribe is 87-62.

If the Sox can just split the 6 games against the Jndjans, that keeps the division lead static and takes 6 off the magic number, reducing it for the other remaining games to 5.

Assuming the Sox can split the 6 games, here's the chart for what the Sox could do and what Cleveland would have to do to tie them:

Sox: Anything 5-3 or better / Indians: eliminated
Sox: 4-4 / Indians: 7-0
Sox: 3-5 / Indians: 6-1
Sox: 2-6 / Indians: 5-2
Sox: 1-7 / Indians: 4-3
Sox: 0-8 / Indians: 3-4

itsnotrequired
09-18-2005, 04:46 PM
Sox are 90-58, Indians are 87-62. If the Sox win 10 more games, at least 2 of them would have to be against Cleveland. With those two losses, the best Cleveland can do is 98-64. Sox record would be at worst 100-62 with 10 wins.

Magic number = 10.

cheeses_h_rice
09-18-2005, 04:50 PM
Sox are 90-58, Indians are 87-62. If the Sox win 10 more games, at least 2 of them would have to be against Cleveland. With those two losses, the best Cleveland can do is 98-64. Sox record would be at worst 100-62 with 10 wins.

Magic number = 10.

The Sox's magic number is 11.

itsnotrequired
09-18-2005, 04:53 PM
The Sox's magic number is 11.

It is 11 if you only compare wins and losses and ignore the matchups. With 10 more wins, two of them are GUARANTEED against Cleveland.

So yes, in the traditional sense of the term, the magic number is 11 but 10 wins is all they need to win the division outright.

cheeses_h_rice
09-18-2005, 04:55 PM
It is 11 if you only compare wins and losses and ignore the matchups. With 10 more wins, two of them are GUARANTEED against Cleveland.

So yes, in the traditional sense of the term, the magic number is 11 but 10 wins is all they need to win the division outright.

Saying the Magic Number is 11 and saying that 10 wins wins the division are 2 separate things. Not that I think you're wrong, but we're talking apples and apricots here.

itsnotrequired
09-18-2005, 05:01 PM
Saying the Magic Number is 11 and saying that 10 wins wins the division are 2 separate things. Not that I think you're wrong, but we're talking apples and apricots here.

Ah, you're right. 10 Sox wins is not the same as a combination of Sox wins and Indians loses totaling 10. Still, if the Sox win 10 games, they clinch the division, plain and simple. Doesn't matter what Cleveland does.

SOX ADDICT '73
09-18-2005, 05:26 PM
I always enjoyed math class as a kid, but never have numbers been so comforting! Incidentally, can anybody else confirm that the following is true?

Even if the Indians and White Sox tie... we still win the division if the wild card team (i.e. Yanks) are worse than us/Cleveland. This is because The Sox and Cleveland would technically be tied for the division and the Wild Card. In this situation, there is no tiebreaker game. The division goes to the team who has the better season record against the other team (I believe we've clinched that?)
Not that I have any reason to doubt downstairs's baseball knowledge, but I've never heard of this, nor had anyone else commented on it since it was posted. If it is true, it helps me breathe just a little easier, and makes rooting against the Yankees that much more satisfying!

cheeses_h_rice
09-18-2005, 05:40 PM
I always enjoyed math class as a kid, but never have numbers been so comforting! Incidentally, can anybody else confirm that the following is true?


Not that I have any reason to doubt downstairs's baseball knowledge, but I've never heard of this, nor had anyone else commented on it since it was posted. If it is true, it helps me breathe just a little easier, and makes rooting against the Yankees that much more satisfying!

I'm not sure if this is correct or not.

The MLB page (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050912&content_id=1206791&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) discussing the coin-flips that were done to decide who would host various tie-breaker games indicates that:

If the AL Central race ends in a tie, the Indians would host the White Sox. The same would go for a Wild Card tie between the Indians and either the Yankees or the Oakland A's.

But this doesn't address the situation where both the White Sox and Indians have better records than the runner-up to the Wild Card, as Downstairs was talking about.

It also says:
In the event three clubs finish the season with the same winning percentage in either league, with one of them a division winner and another the Wild Card, the two teams tied for the division lead would play the one-game tiebreaker. The winner would be declared the division champion, and the losing team would engage the club from the other division for the Wild Card.

MarySwiss
09-18-2005, 06:01 PM
I'm not sure if this is correct or not.

The MLB page (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050912&content_id=1206791&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp&c_id=cws) discussing the coin-flips that were done to decide who would host various tie-breaker games indicates that:
If the AL Central race ends in a tie, the Indians would host the White Sox. The same would go for a Wild Card tie between the Indians and either the Yankees or the Oakland A's.

But this doesn't address the situation where both the White Sox and Indians have better records than the runner-up to the Wild Card, as Downstairs was talking about.

It also says: In the event three clubs finish the season with the same winning percentage in either league, with one of them a division winner and another the Wild Card, the two teams tied for the division lead would play the one-game tiebreaker. The winner would be declared the division champion, and the losing team would engage the club from the other division for the Wild Card.
**************************************

Well, that's as clear as mud! The first quote seems to say that if the two teams tie, there's a tiebreaker game, no matter what. Which, IMO, totally sucks. In every league in every competitive team sport I've ever played in, head-to-head is the first tiebreaker. I can understand (sort of) a playoff game if one of the tied teams would be eliminated, but if both teams will make the playoffs, what would be the point of a playoff game? If you're deciding one-two order between two teams in the same division, it seems logical that the team that won the head-to-head meetings should be the overall winner. It's not like this is a bowling league or something, where it is clearly understood you play a position round. Why not just flip a coin? (Oh, wait. They did.) :rolleyes:

And the second quote is dumber yet. "In the event three clubs finish the season with the same winning percentage in either league...."

So what the hell does that mean? If we tie with Cleveland and finish with the same winning precentage as Houston, one of us has to play Houston? And which one?

Okay, I realize that this is (probably) just poor sentence construction and it should read, "In either league, in the event...."

But does anyone know what would actually happen should the Sox and Toons finish with identical records, but both have better records than either of the second-place teams in the other two divisions? Not that I think this will come up, but I am curious.

SOX ADDICT '73
09-18-2005, 06:04 PM
Quote:
In the event three clubs finish the season with the same winning percentage in either league, with one of them a division winner and another the Wild Card, the two teams tied for the division lead would play the one-game tiebreaker. The winner would be declared the division champion, and the losing team would engage the club from the other division for the Wild Card.

As long as both the Jndians and Sox finish the season one game up on the Yankees (or whoever else), we both make the postseason. That's all I care about.

To be honest, looking at Cleveland's schedule the rest of the way (so easy it's almost comical), and considering how insane they've been playing since August 1 with nary a sign of cooling off that whole time, I have all but conceded the division to them. Much as it pains me to say it, if the Toons can overtake the Sox after the start we had, then they deserve the distinction.

However, if that should happen, I still think we have a really good shot at the Wild Card. It all starts over from scratch when the playoffs begin, and there really isn't one team among those in contention that I see us matching up better against than the others, so it doesn't matter who we play.

TheOldRoman
09-18-2005, 06:19 PM
I always enjoyed math class as a kid, but never have numbers been so comforting! Incidentally, can anybody else confirm that the following is true?


Not that I have any reason to doubt downstairs's baseball knowledge, but I've never heard of this, nor had anyone else commented on it since it was posted. If it is true, it helps me breathe just a little easier, and makes rooting against the Yankees that much more satisfying!
This is true. If are tied with the Indians and ahead of the Yankees, both teams are in, and there is no tiebreaker game. This happened in 2001:
In 2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_in_baseball), the Cardinals and the Houston Astros (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston_Astros) finished the season with identical records of 93-69 and finished tied for first place in the Central Division standings. The tie breaker awarded the division championship to Houston and St. Louis was awarded the wild card berth. The Cardinals organization refers to the 2001 Cardinals as "co-division champions". This could be counted as their 10th division crown.

We have won the season series against the Indians, so in that instance, we would be central champs and they would be the wild card. No tiebreaking game.

kittle42
09-18-2005, 07:22 PM
To be honest, looking at Cleveland's schedule the rest of the way (so easy it's almost comical), and considering how insane they've been playing since August 1 with nary a sign of cooling off that whole time, I have all but conceded the division to them.

Wow.

Madvora
09-18-2005, 08:03 PM
I just thought of something. Remember last year when Cleveland went on the unbelieveable late run and got within about a half game of Minnesota, then fell apart and finished in 3rd place?
I just remembered that today. Let's hope this is just another fluke and they will go away soon, though I doubt it.
It's all up to the Sox to take care of that now.

antitwins13
09-18-2005, 08:05 PM
Nice thread, division is ours!:bandance:

Lip Man 1
09-18-2005, 08:30 PM
According to a story on the Sox official site, the magic number for the division is at 11. The magic number for clinching a postseason playoff spot is 10.

Lip

SouthSide_HitMen
09-18-2005, 08:42 PM
But does anyone know what would actually happen should the Sox and Toons finish with identical records, but both have better records than either of the second-place teams in the other two divisions? Not that I think this will come up, but I am curious.

Then the White Sox would be declared AL Central Champions and the Tribe would be named wild card winner (If the tied teams had better records than all other wild card teams) based on our guaranteed season series record (up 10-3 with 6 to go). The White Sox would only play Cleveland in the event of a tie if the loser goes home after the tie breaker (i.e. the loser is not the wild card).

The scenario happened in the 2001 NL Central race.

Here is a story about it:

http://www.astrosdaily.com/history/20011007/

On October 7, 2001, push came to shove, and push won.
The day America joined the battle in its War Against Terror, Shane Reynolds and the Astros had their backs against the wall on the closing day of the season. One game behind the St. Louis Cardinals for the Central Division pennant, the 'Stros needed one win to take the title on the tie-breaker of head-to-head competition. A victory would give the Astros a 9-7 advantage, and the Division pennant.

__________________________________________________ _________________

I remember LaRussa being pissed about it.

"We're tied. [The league] chose not to play a one-game playoff," LaRussa said following Sunday's 9-2 defeat. "This was a game for seeding. It's not life or death. It was life or a better life. We wanted the better life."

jfinsocal
09-18-2005, 08:51 PM
This could work to the White Sox advantage. If Cleveland wins the central and the White Sox, Red Sox, and Yankees finish with identical records the White Sox are guaranteed wild card winners and the other two play each other for the east.

Not saying this will happen but hypothetically.

ilsox7
09-18-2005, 08:53 PM
This could work to the White Sox advantage. If Cleveland wins the central and the White Sox, Red Sox, and Yankees finish with identical records the White Sox are guaranteed wild card winners and the other two play each other for the east.

Not saying this will happen but hypothetically.

In that scenario, I believe the Red Sox and Yankees would playoff for the East and the loser of that game would play the Sox for the wild card.

Johnny Mostil
09-18-2005, 09:14 PM
In that scenario, I believe the Red Sox and Yankees would playoff for the East and the loser of that game would play the Sox for the wild card.

Wouldn't the BoSox/Yanks "playoff" be a regular-season game, with the loser being a half-game worse than the Sox (and eliminating the need for another "playoff")?

ilsox7
09-18-2005, 09:15 PM
Wouldn't the BoSox/Yanks "playoff" be a regular-season game, with the loser being a half-game worse than the Sox (and eliminating the need for another "playoff")?

Pretty sure MLB has addressed this scenario and deemed it rightfully unfair that the team would be cheated out of a playoff spot b/c of a playoff game. Someone posted the exact rule on here or just google it.

jfinsocal
09-18-2005, 09:16 PM
Chalk one up for Johnny. If teams tie and are required to play one more game they have what is effectively a 163 game season.

Sucks for the loser but them are the rules. Baseball doesn't want to delay the start of the playoff and alter their TV schedule.

Johnny Mostil
09-18-2005, 09:16 PM
Pretty sure MLB has addressed this scenario and deemed it rightfully unfair that the team would be cheated out of a playoff spot b/c of a playoff game. Someone posted the exact rule on here or just google it.

You're right. Last two paragraphs at http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050912&content_id=1206791&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb spell it out.

Johnny Mostil
09-18-2005, 09:18 PM
Chalk one up for Johnny. If teams tie and are required to play one more game they have what is effectively a 163 game season.

Sucks for the loser but them are the rules. Baseball doesn't want to delay the start of the playoff and alter their TV schedule.

Actually not. From mlb.com:

"In the event three clubs finish the season with the same winning percentage in either league, with one of them a division winner and another the Wild Card, the two teams tied for the division lead would play the one-game tiebreaker.
"The winner would be declared the division champion, and the losing team would engage the club from the other division for the Wild Card."

Of course, it's all theoretical--and won't be a topic here after the Sox sweep Cleveland this week . . .

ilsox7
09-18-2005, 09:21 PM
Actually not. From mlb.com:

"In the event three clubs finish the season with the same winning percentage in either league, with one of them a division winner and another the Wild Card, the two teams tied for the division lead would play the one-game tiebreaker.
"The winner would be declared the division champion, and the losing team would engage the club from the other division for the Wild Card."

Of course, it's all theoretical--and won't be a topic here after the Sox sweep Cleveland this week . . .

SO, I guess chalk one up for ilsox in this extremely unlikely, not going to happen scenario. :cool:

Johnny Mostil
09-18-2005, 09:31 PM
SO, I guess chalk one up for ilsox in this extremely unlikely, not going to happen scenario. :cool:

Oh, I don't know--the BoSox, Yanks, Indians, A's, and Angels could all tie, no? Let them all burn through their best arms before facing the Sox, eh?

jfinsocal
09-18-2005, 09:32 PM
This rule has changed, sorry for misleading anybody.

ilsox7
09-18-2005, 09:48 PM
Oh, I don't know--the BoSox, Yanks, Indians, A's, and Angels could all tie, no? Let them all burn through their best arms before facing the Sox, eh?

Haha. Given the fact that not only do we have a 3.5 game lead in the division, but also a 5 game lead over the Yankees, I'm feeling pretty good. It would be funny though if the Red Sox and Yankees tied for the East and the A's and Angels tied for the West while all having the same record as the Indians. What a cluste**** that would be!

Lip Man 1
09-18-2005, 10:02 PM
To this day I have no idea what the American League would have done had the four contending teams, Boston, White Sox, Minnesota and Detroit, all finished tied for the pennant in 1967.

I have never in my research seen anything spelled out. It was literally possible until after the final Friday's games for this to take place. NBC-TV had started setting up equipment in all four parks because the season ended Sunday, and the World series started Tuesday so they had no time to move cameras around and stuff.

Lip

jfinsocal
09-18-2005, 11:34 PM
Here's a website that looks at things differently, not just the magic number.

http://riot.ieor.berkeley.edu/~baseball/

The way I read this, before today a total of 10 wins the rest of the way and the division is won no matter what the Indians do. Similarly 10 wins for the wild card clinching no matter what other teams do. I assume these numbers went down today. As shown in the last column the Sox could lose the rest of the games and still win the wild card.

Click on the AL link to check it out.

FielderJones
09-19-2005, 12:03 AM
Here's a website that looks at things differently, not just the magic number.

http://riot.ieor.berkeley.edu/~baseball/ (http://riot.ieor.berkeley.edu/%7Ebaseball/)

The way I read this, before today a total of 10 wins the rest of the way and the division is won no matter what the Indians do. Similarly 10 wins for the wild card clinching no matter what other teams do. I assume these numbers went down today. As shown in the last column the Sox could lose the rest of the games and still win the wild card.

Click on the AL link to check it out.

http://riot.ieor.berkeley.edu/~baseball/detail_numbers.html

The first place clinch number is the most similar to the commonly reported magic number. If the team wins this number of additional games, it is guaranteed to finish in at least a tie for first place in its division.

We're not interested in ties here. We want to know when the Sox clinch the division outright.

ilsox7
09-19-2005, 12:09 AM
http://riot.ieor.berkeley.edu/~baseball/detail_numbers.html (http://riot.ieor.berkeley.edu/%7Ebaseball/detail_numbers.html)



We're not interested in ties here. We want to know when the Sox clinch the division outright.

If the Sox win 10 more games, they clinch a playoff birth, not just a tie. Ten wins would make the Sox 100-62. At least 2 of those wins would come against Cleveland, making their best possible finishing record 98-64. While RIOT is not exactly like a magic number, it is a nice tool b/c it factors in schedules.

OzzieBall2004
09-19-2005, 12:22 AM
So if we had the same record as the Indians at the end of the season, and that record was the best record in the AL, there would be no tiebreaker game and we'd get the division?

ilsox7
09-19-2005, 12:25 AM
So if we had the same record as the Indians at the end of the season, and that record was the best record in the AL, there would be no tiebreaker game and we'd get the division?

Yes. And homefield. Unless two other teams also had the same record.

FielderJones
09-19-2005, 12:26 AM
If the Sox win 10 more games, they clinch a playoff birth, not just a tie. Ten wins would make the Sox 100-62. At least 2 of those wins would come against Cleveland, making their best possible finishing record 98-64. While RIOT is not exactly like a magic number, it is a nice tool b/c it factors in schedules.

So tomorrow morning at 9:00am EDT, the RIOT number in the Clinch 1st column should read 9, correct? If the Sox win 9 more games, at least one of them would be against Cleveland, making the best Cleveland record 99-63. The Sox would also be 99-63.

Ol' No. 2
09-19-2005, 12:26 AM
So if we had the same record as the Indians at the end of the season, and that record was the best record in the AL, there would be no tiebreaker game and we'd get the division?Extra tiebreaker games are only added when a playoff berth is at stake, i.e. if the loser sits out the playoffs. When both teams would qualify, the division goes to the head-to-head winner and the WC to the other team.

ilsox7
09-19-2005, 12:29 AM
So tomorrow morning at 9:00am EDT, the RIOT number in the Clinch 1st column should read 9, correct? If the Sox win 9 more games, at least one of them would be against Cleveland, making the best Cleveland record 99-63. The Sox would also be 99-63.

I see what you're saying...I missed the update time on there. I was saying from right now til the end of the season, 10 wins secures the division. I think 9 wins will secure the wild card given the schedule the Yankees have left.