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Lip Man 1
09-15-2005, 08:02 PM
From White Sox.com:

"We didn't expect to come here and play this way. We're a better team than we're showing. If we continue to play like that, we better make some reservations for some little vacation. If we continue to play like that, I don't think we deserve to have a chance. Not that we don't have a chance, but I'm saying we don't deserve it. We're really playing lousy baseball." -- Ozzie Guillen

Don't tell the media Ozzie, don't tell us fans...try screaming it at your players.

Lip

Unregistered
09-15-2005, 08:16 PM
Well, Ozzie. NO ****.

veeter
09-15-2005, 08:21 PM
I heard that sound bite and Ozzie sounded like a whipped puppy while saying it. He does not sound like a manager in control but one that's at the mercy of his team's play. I'm starting to doubt Ozzie's strength. This is when he should demand results. What does he do?...rests his starting second baseman.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2005, 08:48 PM
That same second baseman who got a pinch hit three run double. Yea he's really, really tired!

If you believe Gammons Ozzie's lost control of the team and it has fractured so that may explain his 'hang dog' look and sound.

Who the hell knows about these clowns anymore.

Lip

Unregistered
09-15-2005, 09:01 PM
If you believe Gammons Ozzie's lost control of the team and it has fractured so that may explain his 'hang dog' look and sound.

Who the hell knows about these clowns anymore.

Lip
I wonder if Marte has something to do with that.

In the Sox notes, Ozzie had this to say about him: "When we get to Minnesota, we'll talk about the issue he has with his teammates..."

The whole thing stinks this late in the season. :mad:

RichFitztightly
09-15-2005, 09:06 PM
I really think the best thing to do right now is to play the reserves. At the very worst, they'll continue to lose, but give some of the regulars a bit of a rest. At the best, their youthful exuberance will give the team a bit of a spark, and that, coupled with the rest the starters will get should give them a boost.

As far as pitchers go... I don't know what to do there. Pitch McCarthy every 3 days?

SluggersAway
09-15-2005, 09:06 PM
I think something happened behind the scenes that screwed up the chemistry on this team. Many times the personal can get in the way of team effort and success. Petty concerns become overblown and everyone loses focus. This team is just not playing well together and they don't seem to want to play together nor do they look like they enjoy doing so. That is disastrous for a team and it is very hard to rebuild and pick up the pieces if bruised egos are involved. Some people seem to enjoy going down with a ship just to prevent others from participating in the spoils of war.

It is all just conjecture on my part, probably not the whole story, but you need unity to gain momentum and some players have called others out at times which may have slowed this team down.

Frankly Missing
09-15-2005, 09:11 PM
Lip,

Myself, like most posters here, respect your opinions and knowledge of Sox baseball.

What can our manager do to turn this around? Many people are calling for Ozzie to rip the players a new you know what.

How does screaming at Crede make him produce like A Rod? Does yelling at Vix make him pitch like Rivera?

It seems to me the manager and coaches should have been on top of this weeks ago, evaluating, re-evaluating, calling for early and extra work before games, after games.

Besides the pitchers, I don't understand all this "resting" players while Rome burns.

This team has one shot, just showing up on time and hitting a few balls in the cage doesn't seem to have been near enough preparation when things are falling apart.

Seems to me, no matter what our jobs, we perform better when we feel prepared. And we all know the "good" tired we feel when we bust our butts to get a project on our homes done.

Sounds to me like the team leaves the locker room in silence, and comes back the next day.

buehrle4cy05
09-15-2005, 09:13 PM
Sounds to me like the team leaves the locker room in silence, and comes back the next day.

I sure hope it's not that "25 players, 25 cabs" thing.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-15-2005, 09:19 PM
I wonder if Marte has something to do with that.

In the Sox notes, Ozzie had this to say about him: "When we get to Minnesota, we'll talk about the issue he has with his teammates..."

The whole thing stinks this late in the season. :mad:


We don't know the whole story behind the Marte soap opera. However I think it's pretty stupid for the Sox to be making a big public spectacle of his punishment this late in the season. It's an unnecessary distraction and the fact the Sox still haven't resolved it to their satisfaction only underscores how stupid it was to make a big deal of the matter in the first place.

If Ozzie and KW are guilty of anything, it's not keeping their eyes on the prize. Disciplining Marte isn't the goal for the 2005 Sox, is it?

Lip Man 1
09-15-2005, 09:31 PM
George:
Good point!

Frankly:

You go with the guys who got you here. No more Timo, no more Blum, you have a set lineup every single day barring injury, the rest of the season. If they keep screwing up they'll have all damn winter to relax and unwind. Willie Harris doesn't win you a championship....Tag Iguchi may.

You tell the players it's 'your ass' on the line now...not mine (Ozzie), not Kenny's and not the coaches. Yours! You make sure the players realize what's at stake and you also make the players realize what is at stake for their fans if they pull the biggest choke job in MLB history.

Then you sit back and see what happens.

Lip

kitekrazy
09-15-2005, 09:40 PM
Aren't these guys suppose to be "professional" baseball players instead of a group of jr. high girls?

Sorry, but Ozzie and Coops ass should be on the line as well.

MarySwiss
09-15-2005, 09:50 PM
WOW! Holy crap! Where did all this bad chemistry stuff come from all of a sudden? So the manager has issues with a player or two. Based on what we've seen recently, he should! But who said this translates to bad chemistry? Last I heard, Sox players were insisting the team's mood was upbeat and positive.

And can we please stop pointing fingers? WHO CARES what's happened up to now? The Sox need to focus on what happens FROM NOW ON! And forgive me for shouting, but I am PISSED! :angry:

TornLabrum
09-15-2005, 09:54 PM
WOW! Holy crap! Where did all this bad chemistry stuff come from all of a sudden? So the manager has issues with a player or two. Based on what we've seen recently, he should! But who said this translates to bad chemistry? Last I heard, Sox players were insisting the team's mood was upbeat and positive.

And can we please stop pointing fingers? WHO CARES what's happened up to now? The Sox need to focus on what happens FROM NOW ON! And forgive me for shouting, but I am PISSED! :angry:

I like what Dave Baum once had to say about chemistry. "If you want chemistry, light a Bunsen burner under their butts."

veeter
09-15-2005, 09:56 PM
I really hope the problems don't run this deep and complex. How could they? I've heard all season long that everyone gets along great. It can't fall apart that quickly can it? Obviously if the pitching was this poor all season they'd be battling Detroit for fourth. So I hope this is just the pitching and not some deep rooted problem. If these other issues are true and that Ozzie has lost this team, where do you go from here as a fan? Milwaukee?

MarySwiss
09-15-2005, 09:56 PM
I like what Dave Baum once had to say about chemistry. "If you want chemistry, light a Bunsen burner under their butts."

Torn, profound as always!

:rolling:

pczarapa
09-15-2005, 10:07 PM
If nothing else, we got our media attention. We're in the sports headlines across the nation, most of which would love to see us lose a 15 game lead for their personal gain.

Personally, I think this may be a silver lining. If we get the hell kicked out of us by Cleveland, we don't deserve to go in. If we beat Cleveland we gain some much needed momentum going in. Let's face it, we have only won 2 series against winning teams since 8/1 the Yanks and the Indians. We're flat right now, but if we can blow up the Indians it'll give us some oomph going into the playoffs.

I was in an all day meeting today and had to excuse myself after seeing the Sox lost, I wanted to throttle somebody. That being said, it's easy to fold the cards right now, but we've all been Sox fans too long to just cash it in and look forward to next year. We don't have the Bears, the Bulls, or the Hawks to pull us through - this is Chicago's chance this year and I really really hope we can get our poop together and go into the playoffs all guns blazing!

SluggersAway
09-15-2005, 10:26 PM
Torn, I like what Dave Baum had to say too, but it has little to contribute to this discussion.

A baseball TEAM needs to work together. Effective teams are more than just a collection of talented members. To be effective, a team has to be able to combine the efforts and abilities of members in the right way.

frankie_ventura
09-15-2005, 10:32 PM
Lip

you mentioned gammons wrote that Ozzie has lost control of this team. For those who do not watch Baseball Tonight on a regular basis or who do not pay for the ESPN insider, can you explain Gammons proof for stating this. It has got to be more than the Marte situation.

If anyone else knows anything about Ozzie possibly losing control of the clubhouse, please offer insights as well

Thanks

billyvsox
09-15-2005, 10:36 PM
Here-here

Two major things I totally agree with:

1) Rest is for 2-5 year olds who need an afternoon nap, not million dollar ball players.

2) Silver lining. We have no option but to be on a roll when we go to the playoffs, cause if we struggle, were out.

A. Cavatica
09-15-2005, 10:43 PM
Good chemistry doesn't win games. Winning games produces good chemistry.

Ozzie needs to stop worrying about what the players think and put a lineup on the field that can win every game. Marte's popular? Sorry, he's a basket case, he's on mopup duty. El Duque's got a great postseason record? Sorry, he's been getting shelled early, he's out of the rotation. Freddy's married to his daughter? Sorry, when he gets shelled early, pull him.

wassagstdu
09-15-2005, 11:05 PM
I think something happened behind the scenes that screwed up the chemistry on this team.

Good chemistry doesn't win games. Winning games produces good chemistry.
I think what happened was Podsednik was taken out of the equation after the break (and still hasn't come back). In the first half the Sox got an early lead game after game -- for which Pods deserves major credit. So the pitchers pitched better with early leads. Take away Pods and the early leads disappeared, and overall run production dropped. Suddenly the pitchers were losing 2-0 and having to bear down constantly. Eventually they lost their edge and attitude and started getting shelled, so that now that run production has returned as hitters have gotten hot, the pitching is the weak link.

Remember a couple of years ago when the Sox got off to a great start with Kenny Lofton in center, until Lofton got injured and everything fell apart? A top-notch leadoff man really sets the tone and sets up the whole offense.

But then, what do I know?

Lip Man 1
09-15-2005, 11:13 PM
Frankie:

According to Petey on WEEI radio/Boston today, he said Ozzie has lost control of the clubhouse and the team has fractured into basically cliques. I have no idea why he said this or what 'proof' he has. Perhaps it's the Matre Affair. Maybe Iguchi who already once this season has told the press he's not tired and can play more, is part of it.

Gammons may also be full of horsedung. Who knows. What I do know is that this team has lost all semblence of confidence, swagger, verve and arrogance.

Part of me wouldn't want to 'back in' to the playoffs after blowing a 15 game divisional lead because from the moment the game started until the final out the TV media would make it the lead story. The Sox would be a laughingstock (again...)...and part of me says the hell with it, just get there and see what happens. I don't know right now.

Andrew: Personally I've found talent beats the hell out of whatever chemistry issues, good or bad, a team may have. The A's of 72-73-74 and the Yankees of 77-78 hated each other but that didn't stop them from winning five World Series because their talent was head and shoulders above all the teams that got along.

Lip

CHISOXFAN13
09-15-2005, 11:18 PM
Frankie:

According to Petey on WEEI radio/Boston today, he said Ozzie has lost control of the clubhouse and the team has fractured into basically cliques. I have no idea why he said this or what 'proof' he has. Perhaps it's the Matre Affair. Maybe Iguchi who already once this season has told the press he's not tired and can play more, is part of it.

Gammons may also be full of horsedung. Who knows. What I do know is that this team has lost all semblence of confidence, swagger, verve and arrogance.

Part of me wouldn't want to 'back in' to the playoffs after blowing a 15 game divisional lead because from the moment the game started until the final out the TV media would make it the lead story. The Sox would be a laughingstock (again...)...and part of me says the hell with it, just get there and see what happens. I don't know right now.

Andrew: Personally I've found talent beats the hell out of whatever chemistry issues, good or bad, a team may have. The A's of 72-73-74 and the Yankees of 77-78 hated each other but that didn't stop them from winning five World Series because their talent was head and shoulders above all the teams that got along.

Lip

Not so, according to Politte who was just on the Score. The team has arrived in Minnesota and is getting together as a full squad to have a team party.

They planned it a while back, so here's hoping they can forget about what happened the past few days, unwind a little bit and get back to the brand of baseball that allowed them to take 15-game lead.

Lip Man 1
09-15-2005, 11:21 PM
Chisox Fan 13:

Right now I'd be grateful for an eight game lead. Hell I'll take six!

Lip

CHISOXFAN13
09-15-2005, 11:29 PM
Chisox Fan 13:

Right now I'd be grateful for an eight game lead. Hell I'll take six!

Lip

You and me both. I think we all have to hope this teams shows a little bit more of a sense of urgency because of who and where they are playing tomorrow.

I'd like nothing more than to see the Sox eliminate the Twins officially this weekend.

whitesoxwin
09-15-2005, 11:33 PM
I heard that sound bite and Ozzie sounded like a whipped puppy while saying it. He does not sound like a manager in control but one that's at the mercy of his team's play. I'm starting to doubt Ozzie's strength. This is when he should demand results. What does he do?...rests his starting second baseman.

Get the vets back on the field and quit experimenting with who might make the playoff roster.
I want to see four things: quality pitching, good defense, smart at bats and move the baserunners in to score.
Ozzy better find a way to get their heads out of their collective a$$es!!!
This is what got--and kept-- the Sox in first place all season.

************************************************** *****

Iguana775
09-15-2005, 11:46 PM
They just need to get in to a brawl with the twinkies. LOL. or the Indians.

someone get the bunsin burner out and light a fire under their arses!!

Lip Man 1
09-15-2005, 11:53 PM
Defense should never go into slumps...that and baserunning. Unfortunately it's been missing a lot for stretches during the second half.

Lip

SluggersAway
09-15-2005, 11:54 PM
Personally I've found talent beats the hell out of whatever chemistry issues, good or bad, a team may have. The A's of 72-73-74 and the Yankees of 77-78 hated each other but that didn't stop them from winning five World Series because their talent was head and shoulders above all the teams that got along.

Lip

You can hate each others guts off the field, like Oakland, and still kick the rear out of the competition, this has nothing to do with on-field performance. The sox this time around are looking like they are taking their emotions into game time.

The Bulls teams of glory days were not best of friends; but when they stepped onto the court it was a different story.

Talent does beat chemistry, but this team has the talent. It has shown the pitching, defense, and hitting necessary. So what is left? You said it yourself, the team looks stiff etc..

SluggersAway
09-16-2005, 12:00 AM
...according to Politte who was just on the Score. The team has arrived in Minnesota and is getting together as a full squad to have a team party.

A team party?! Time to celebrate good times! Come on!

jdm2662
09-16-2005, 12:05 AM
I like what Dave Baum once had to say about chemistry. "If you want chemistry, light a Bunsen burner under their butts."

And don't forget the great Dennis Rodman:

"Chemistry is just a class you take in high school or college."

Lip Man 1
09-16-2005, 12:07 AM
Sluggers:

This team has some talent. I wouldn't say man for man they have the most talent in the league. Regardless they need to play harder, smarter and do the little things to win games. They can't turn it on and off which is what they've been trying to do since August 1st. Right now when they can't even steal a base, catch a ball or execute a hit and run, you have serious issues.

Lip

FielderJones
09-16-2005, 12:08 AM
A team party?! Time to celebrate good times! Come on!

What do you want them to do? Everyone go to their hotel room and hang their heads in shame?

I think this is a great idea. Unwind, relax, hang together, blow all the tension and frustration out.

SluggersAway
09-16-2005, 12:09 AM
Lip:

Agreed.

SluggersAway
09-16-2005, 12:15 AM
What do you want them to do? Everyone go to their hotel room and hang their heads in shame?

I think this is a great idea. Unwind, relax, hang together, blow all the tension and frustration out.

The last thing you do is celebrate mediocrity.

Don't you think they try to "unwind, relax, hang...blow all the tension and frustration out" after every game whether they win or lose?

To have a "party" sends the wrong message. They would probably "party" whether the team organized one or not, so why not postpone the team sanctioned one until they had something to celebrate. Championship teams don't celebrate after a mediocre stretch whether it was scheduled or not.

IowaSox1971
09-16-2005, 05:46 AM
I remember that during the 1990s when the Bulls suffered tough playoff losses to the Knicks in New York, Phil Jackson often would take the team on sight-seeing tours on days off between games. So, I have no problem with the White Sox having a team party while they're struggling on the field.

Ozzie obviously has not managed well recently. What I found disturbing is that after Sunday's loss to the Angels, he apparently left for home in Miami and didn't rejoin the team until Tuesday in Kansas City. (Monday was an off day.) I think he should have taken the plane trip with the team. We had just been swept by the Angels, and Cleveland had gained four games on us in four days.

Dan H
09-16-2005, 07:40 AM
I don't know about chemistry right now. However, most of the remaining schedule is against the Twins and Detroit. I don't know how to rate the Sox right now overall, but they are better than these two teams. They should be going into these games almost knowing they can win. If they don't feel that way, how they are going to hold their own against the Indians or any other playoff team?

BTW, the Soxogram is dumb.

harwar
09-16-2005, 08:23 AM
What I found disturbing is that after Sunday's loss to the Angels, he apparently left for home in Miami and didn't rejoin the team until Tuesday in Kansas City. (Monday was an off day.) I think he should have taken the plane trip with the team. We had just been swept by the Angels, and Cleveland had gained four games on us in four days.

Yea,i didn't like that either.
Also,he said the other day,"I'm not part of this team,'i'm just the manager."
I realize that he says how he feels but the White Sox management and players should not air their dirty laundry in public.
All teams have trouble during the season.
Sometimes they have serious trouble,but you usually don't hear about it because its handled in house.
We are going to find out in the next few days if Ozzie is indeed the leader of a group of men fighting to obtain a common goal or just a bunch of guys fighting amongst themselves while the ship goes down.

mrwag
09-16-2005, 10:04 AM
I haven't been able to watch games, since I live in TN. But, is Pods really healthy? He's the catalyst, but doesn't seem to be starting the fires like he was early on.

downstairs
09-16-2005, 10:34 AM
Chemestry is "total BS".

I know a lot of people here probably dislike the guy, but Jimmy Pearsal said it best (paraphrasing):

"When teams are winning they have good chemestry. When they're losing, they have bad chemestry. Period. Its a myth."

Many teams have won championships, and it turned out the players absolutely hated each other the whole season. Many teams have failed miserably, and all got along and hung out every night.

Randar68
09-16-2005, 10:54 AM
I heard that sound bite and Ozzie sounded like a whipped puppy while saying it. He does not sound like a manager in control but one that's at the mercy of his team's play. I'm starting to doubt Ozzie's strength. This is when he should demand results. What does he do?...rests his starting second baseman.

This is what happens when you think you can just turn it on or off at will. Ozzie can't get them to flip the switch back on.

Anyone else sick of Podsednik turning routine singles into doubles and making Carlos Lee look like the best OF'er in baseball history?

If he isn't going to be confident and capable of stealing bases, I'd rather see Anderson or Ozuna in there. Sheeesh.

Ol' No. 2
09-16-2005, 01:22 PM
I heard that sound bite and Ozzie sounded like a whipped puppy while saying it. He does not sound like a manager in control but one that's at the mercy of his team's play. I'm starting to doubt Ozzie's strength. This is when he should demand results. What does he do?...rests his starting second baseman.They scored 14 runs in their last two losses. Willie reached base in 3 of his 4 plate appearances. Obviously, you've hit on the reason they lost.

Dick Allen
09-16-2005, 01:37 PM
It should all be about what happens between the lines, where a ballplayer's pride and competitive spirit take over, not thinking about how he may not get along with someone else out on the field. Chemistry and teamwork ON the field. Alluding to Piersall's comments, chemistry was just great when they were winning, now all of a sudden, they don't like each other? Baloney.

mmmmmbeeer
09-16-2005, 01:50 PM
I think what happened was Podsednik was taken out of the equation after the break (and still hasn't come back). In the first half the Sox got an early lead game after game -- for which Pods deserves major credit. So the pitchers pitched better with early leads. Take away Pods and the early leads disappeared, and overall run production dropped. Suddenly the pitchers were losing 2-0 and having to bear down constantly. Eventually they lost their edge and attitude and started getting shelled, so that now that run production has returned as hitters have gotten hot, the pitching is the weak link.

Remember a couple of years ago when the Sox got off to a great start with Kenny Lofton in center, until Lofton got injured and everything fell apart? A top-notch leadoff man really sets the tone and sets up the whole offense.

But then, what do I know?

I think this pretty much sums up my feelings on our skid. Chemistry helps, but physically and mentally each individual is on their own over the course of 162 games. If you become exhausted, you aren't as effective. We prepare ourselves for 8-10 hrs of work each day with weekends off. If someone quits and we're working 14-16hrs each day with only 1 day off a week to pick up the slack, our production/hour drops due to fatigue. These guys are no different. Our pitching is horrid right now and I don't believe it's from lack of effort. They're drained. It's unfortunate this wasn't recognized earlier in the year by the coaching staff when they had time, and a lead, to lessen the work load on our starters prior to the stretch run. Now we're in a position where we need those 5-6 guys to step up higher than they have all season when they're physically and mentally the weakest they've been all season. Not a good situation and one that I hope they can find a way to overcome.

Incidentally, as far as the Marte deal, wasn't there big problems between he and CLee last season. Something about CLee making fun of Marte's upbringing or origin, something like that. CLee seems like a pretty likeable guy who jokes around, yet Marte took his words as insults and despised El Caballo. This is NOT the type of temperament you need in a clubhouse, especially one led by a bunch of jokesters like Oz, MB, Timo and Crazy Carl.

DickAllen72
09-16-2005, 05:19 PM
Anyone else sick of Podsednik turning routine singles into doubles and making Carlos Lee look like the best OF'er in baseball history?


I am.