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Soxmissy
09-12-2005, 02:51 AM
After watching the Sox offense the last couple of months I have to wonder
what our record would be if we still had Carlos Lee. I know this won't be a
popular thread with most of you, but the thought had to of crossed your
minds at least once. As much as I like Pods, would Carlos's bat have been more valuable to this team?:o:

Irishsoxfan
09-12-2005, 02:54 AM
That would be a 'No'. I believe Pods has won us more games this year than CLee would have done.

Banix12
09-12-2005, 03:23 AM
If there were a way to have both Carlos Lee and Scott Podsednik then yeah, it would have likely brought more wins. However that probably wasn't possible. It was a matter of needs.

Without the leadoff man Carlos' bat would have been hardly as effective since his RBI chances would have been fewer. Now he's in Milwaukee with some very good table setters before him and he's at the top of the NL rankings in RBI's. Would he be doing the same thing here with a Rowand or Willie at the top of the order? Probably not. He probably would have seen a slight bump up in stats because of the Iguchi addition but not a huge one.

Carlos Lee's bat when just compared to Podsednik's is definitely superior, but the team just needed Podsednik's skill set more.

likeawarlord
09-12-2005, 03:46 AM
i hate to go all bernstein on you, but if you look podsedniks numbers with a bill james perspective, he really is not contributing much to the team. furthermore, look at lee's numbers this year.

the one area, and its an admittedly important one, where podsednik really helps us more than lee ever could have is outfield defense. obviously, podsednik's no willie mays, but his speed gives him enormous range in left field, something lee lacked almost entirely. with vastly improved range in left and a very solid centerfielder in rowand, balls that would have dropped for doubles and rbi singles are being caught or fielded early. and thats why i would hesitate to give podsednik back.

oeo
09-12-2005, 07:32 AM
i hate to go all bernstein on you, but if you look podsedniks numbers with a bill james perspective, he really is not contributing much to the team. furthermore, look at lee's numbers this year.

the one area, and its an admittedly important one, where podsednik really helps us more than lee ever could have is outfield defense. obviously, podsednik's no willie mays, but his speed gives him enormous range in left field, something lee lacked almost entirely. with vastly improved range in left and a very solid centerfielder in rowand, balls that would have dropped for doubles and rbi singles are being caught or fielded early. and thats why i would hesitate to give podsednik back.

Just his presence on the basebaths creates pure chaos...why don't you look at it that way. Look at our record with Podsednik in the lineup, and then compare that to our record without him. You may be quite surprised at the results. I think people underestimate his meaning to this team, why do you think the media was all over him when he won the final vote for the all-star team.

To tell you the truth, I think we would be fighting for a second place finish with Lee over Podsednik. Pods presence alone too many games to count.

White Sox Randy
09-12-2005, 07:46 AM
If the Sox don't make that trade with Milwaukee, then they don't have enough money to sign A.J. or Iguchi.

So, how does our team look with Carlos Lee, Ben Davis and Willie Harris ?

likeawarlord
09-12-2005, 11:37 AM
Just his presence on the basebaths creates pure chaos...why don't you look at it that way. Look at our record with Podsednik in the lineup, and then compare that to our record without him. You may be quite surprised at the results. I think people underestimate his meaning to this team, why do you think the media was all over him when he won the final vote for the all-star team.

To tell you the truth, I think we would be fighting for a second place finish with Lee over Podsednik. Pods presence alone too many games to count.

oh, i understand that. and i'm aware of the record, its obviously the biggest argument in podsednik's favor.

If the Sox don't make that trade with Milwaukee, then they don't have enough money to sign A.J. or Iguchi.

So, how does our team look with Carlos Lee, Ben Davis and Willie Harris ?

well, i never said i wouldn't make the trade. i think the trade is the single biggest reason we're having the year we are. all i said was it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to have lee back. also notice that i said i think I'd still rather have podsednik than lee.

D. TODD
09-12-2005, 11:43 AM
If the Sox don't make that trade with Milwaukee, then they don't have enough money to sign A.J. or Iguchi.

So, how does our team look with Carlos Lee, Ben Davis and Willie Harris ? Carlos Lee is clearly a better player then Pods in my opinion, but as others have noted the key was freeing up money to add multiple players for Lee. K.W. did a good job of maximizing his return for C. Lee's salary with Pods being a intregal part of that mix.

SoxinAZ
09-12-2005, 11:48 AM
If the Sox don't make that trade with Milwaukee, then they don't have enough money to sign A.J. or Iguchi.

So, how does our team look with Carlos Lee, Ben Davis and Willie Harris ?

Like last years team.

Flight #24
09-12-2005, 11:52 AM
Can we stop with the Carlos Lee lovefest? The man is batting .274 / .334 / .506 with 30HR and 12SB.

.841 OPS is nice, but nothing spectacular. For the record, that ranks 45th in baseball. What he's done is drive in a lot of runs, and be the primary run producer on a surprisingly decent Brewer team. But he's doing what he did for the Sox - look like a good hitter about to take the "leap" to being a perennial all-star type of guy. But he's looked like that for a few years now without making that next step.

By comparison, Jermaine Dye is putting up very similar #s but lower RBIs (not as many opportunities though). Carl Everett's not far behind either with lower averages, but almost the same HR & RBI production when adjusted for a lower # of ABs. So you could argue that the Sox basically do have Carlos Lee and Scott Podsednik in the lineup.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-12-2005, 12:00 PM
furthermore, look at lee's numbers this year.

Look at them particularly after he went around the league a few times. They've dropped way off.

Since July 1, Lee is hitting .270 with 29 RBIs. He had 72 RBIs through June 30. He's about what Dye is. Dye is hitting .275 since July 1 and has 38 RBIs, and in 40 less at-bats than Lee.

If Lee were on the Sox rather than Pods, who knows what he would have done, other than hit into a bunch of double plays with the bases loaded like he always did. I'm not a fan of his. He always seems to get big numbers without any clutch hits. When it was 9-0 games, he was great. How many big hits do you remember him getting for the Sox, other than when they were playing the Cubs?

White Sox Randy
09-12-2005, 01:08 PM
I'd like Carlos Lee on my team if he was my DH and I was paying him no more than $ 5 mil.

He is a good hitter not a great hitter and that's about it in my opinion.

Jjav829
09-12-2005, 02:59 PM
After watching the Sox offense the last couple of months I have to wonder
what our record would be if we still had Carlos Lee. I know this won't be a
popular thread with most of you, but the thought had to of crossed your
minds at least once. As much as I like Pods, would Carlos's bat have been more valuable to this team?:o:

If you simply switched the two players, probably about the same as our current record, possibly a little better. But the problem is that we couldn't keep Lee and still get Pierzynski, Iguchi, etc.

likeawarlord
09-12-2005, 07:58 PM
If Lee were on the Sox rather than Pods, who knows what he would have done, other than hit into a bunch of double plays with the bases loaded like he always did. I'm not a fan of his. He always seems to get big numbers without any clutch hits.

ok, then i'm sure youre much happier with 23 rbi, .348 slugging and 26 extrabase hits, all of them doubles? by the way, lee has more runs scored, something podsednik should be doing more of if he's really "the catalyst."

if i say that he's not scoring runs and not helping the team, you'll say that he bothers the pitchers, helping the other players drive in runs. if this is true, however, the only way podsednik would still not be scoring runs were if he was either being caught stealing or getting thrown out in force plays. either way, he's not helping.

again, i'm in favor of the trade that brought pods here, it's why we're winning. but to argue that podsenik helps the team more OFFENSIVELY than lee is not accurate.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-13-2005, 12:07 PM
ok, then i'm sure youre much happier with 23 rbi, .348 slugging and 26 extrabase hits, all of them doubles? by the way, lee has more runs scored, something podsednik should be doing more of if he's really "the catalyst."

if i say that he's not scoring runs and not helping the team, you'll say that he bothers the pitchers, helping the other players drive in runs. if this is true, however, the only way podsednik would still not be scoring runs were if he was either being caught stealing or getting thrown out in force plays. either way, he's not helping.

again, i'm in favor of the trade that brought pods here, it's why we're winning. but to argue that podsenik helps the team more OFFENSIVELY than lee is not accurate.

I never made any mention of Pods, only Lee, so I don't know what you're saying. What I said about Lee is that he is not a difference maker. And for $8-million, you better be.

likeawarlord
09-13-2005, 03:28 PM
I never made any mention of Pods, only Lee, so I don't know what you're saying. What I said about Lee is that he is not a difference maker. And for $8-million, you better be.

well, i'm saying that if everything else were equal (and obviously its NOT equal, but even so) i'd rather have lee's offensive production than podsedniks.

Ol' No. 2
09-13-2005, 03:34 PM
well, i'm saying that if everything else were equal (and obviously its NOT equal, but even so) i'd rather have lee's offensive production than podsedniks.For most of the second half you'd have been better off with Chris Widger than Carlos Lee.

IowaSox1971
09-13-2005, 05:46 PM
By dropping Lee from the payroll, I believe we were able to afford El Duque, A.J. and Iguchi. That filled our holes at fifth starter, catcher and second base. Not to mention that we also got Vizcaino in the Lee deal. There is no way we would be better with Lee.

Even if payroll were not part of the equation, it's hard to say that Lee would be better to have on the team than Podsednik. A great leadoff hitter is more difficult to find than a slugging outfielder. Without Podsednik, we would be having the same leadoff problems that have plagued us the past couple of years.

likeawarlord
09-13-2005, 05:50 PM
For most of the second half you'd have been better off with Chris Widger than Carlos Lee.

except that he's hitting .385 for the first half of september. his numbers are also still more productive than podsednik for the same time frame. aside from having only 14 extra base hits, 29 runs scored and 7 (!) rbi in the second half, pods has also stopped stealing bases with any sort of efficiency. he's 18-11 since the start of july.

even in his slumping months (july-august) lee scored more runs (30) than podsednik has in the entire second half.

Ol' No. 2
09-13-2005, 05:58 PM
except that he's hitting .385 for the first half of september. his numbers are also still more productive than podsednik for the same time frame. aside from having only 14 extra base hits, 29 runs scored and 7 (!) rbi in the second half, pods has also stopped stealing bases with any sort of efficiency. he's 18-11 since the start of july.

even in his slumping months (july-august) lee scored more runs (30) than podsednik has in the entire second half.Great. Now that his team has no chance (not that they did anyway) he turns it on. Just what we need.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-13-2005, 08:25 PM
Great. Now that his team has no chance (not that they did anyway) he turns it on. Just what we need.

That's what I have been saying about him all along. He always puts up big numbers when they're meaningless. When the Brewers had a chance to be in contention after his fast start in the spring, he goes and hides until they're out of it. Then he comes back and starts hitting. For $8-million, there a dozens of other players I would rather have.

Frater Perdurabo
09-13-2005, 08:26 PM
The defining moment of last offseason was when Omar Vizquel decided to sign with the Giants instead of the Sox. That domino "forced" KW to pursue other options to acquire a leadoff hitter. As PHG has speculated (correctly, I believe), KW then tried to trade PK but when he found no takers at a price he expected, he reluctantly re-scrambled the eggs by trading Lee to get Pods and Vizcaino. Had KW acquired Vizquel, his "Plan A" at the outset, the offseason would have proceeded much differently, and the roster would be much different today.

likeawarlord
09-13-2005, 10:14 PM
as ive said numerous times in this thread:

a. the team is better with podsednik than lee (largely for the increased range he provides in left)

b. the trade that sent carlos lee to milwaukee is the single biggest reason behind the sox success this season.

that said, arguing that podsednik does more for the team OFFENSIVELY than lee is not supported by the statistics. even when lee was "struggling" with milwaukee he was much more productive than podsednik, more runs scored, more rbi, higher ops. and if lee "hid" when milwaukee needed him most, what the hell is podsednik doing now, going 18 out of 29 (62%) on stolen bases?

SkeetSkeetAmit
09-13-2005, 10:24 PM
Can't you guys see that likeawarlord was all for the Trade! He has said many times that Pods is an asset to the team! He's said it's the reason we're winning and he knows that it freed up a bunch of money!

I love Pods a lot. I love chanting "GO GO GO" when he's on the paths. But I also love Carloss Lee and what he can bring to the team.

On the base paths, yes, Pods does disrupt a pitcher and all that jazz. But Carlos Lee is still better offensively. I agree with Likeawarlod. Am I glad we have Pods, YES!

Hangar18
09-16-2005, 02:43 PM
If the Sox don't make that trade with Milwaukee, then they don't have enough money to sign A.J. or Iguchi.

So, how does our team look with Carlos Lee, Ben Davis and Willie Harris ?

How does our team look, Making a Trade with Milwaukee and REACQUIRING Carlos Lee? Put him in RF, trade a good prospect and Everett.

ssirish317
09-16-2005, 05:17 PM
We don't need Carlos Me on this team to succeed. Let him worry about his personal stats on a losing team.

Ol' No. 2
09-16-2005, 05:23 PM
How does our team look, Making a Trade with Milwaukee and REACQUIRING Carlos Lee? Put him in RF, trade a good prospect and Everett.Carlos Lee in RF???
:rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling::rolling:

likeawarlord
09-19-2005, 09:11 PM
hangar has the right idea

White Sox Randy
09-20-2005, 08:06 AM
What's worse Carlos Lee in RF or Carlton Fisk in LF ?

Mohoney
09-20-2005, 08:20 AM
What's worse Carlos Lee in RF or Carlton Fisk in LF ?

Ken Harrelson as GM.

LongLiveFisk
09-20-2005, 10:05 AM
Ken Harrelson as GM.

:roflmao:
You can put THAT on the board. :tongue:

Rocky Soprano
09-20-2005, 10:41 AM
How does our team look, Making a Trade with Milwaukee and REACQUIRING Carlos Lee? Put him in RF, trade a good prospect and Everett.


And while you are it, why not reaquire Maggs and put him in CF.

/teal not needed!

Hangar18
09-20-2005, 10:50 AM
If there were a way to have both Carlos Lee and Scott Podsednik then yeah, it would have likely brought more wins. However that probably wasn't possible. It was a matter of needs.

Without the leadoff man Carlos' bat would have been hardly as effective since his RBI chances would have been fewer. Now he's in Milwaukee with some very good table setters before him and he's at the top of the NL rankings in RBI's. Would he be doing the same thing here with a Rowand or Willie at the top of the order? Probably not. He probably would have seen a slight bump up in stats because of the Iguchi addition but not a huge one.

Carlos Lee's bat when just compared to Podsednik's is definitely superior, but the team just needed Podsednik's skill set more.

Which is what The White Sox needed all along. WE had all the power in the world, we just didnt have a #1 and #2 hitter in front of them. We needed it every year since Durham was traded. So what do the SOX do? they get rid of all the power and get some "tablesetters". IDIOTS.
If we had BOTH ...........we'd have a 20 game lead right now ...........

Rocky Soprano
09-20-2005, 03:36 PM
Which is what The White Sox needed all along. WE had all the power in the world, we just didnt have a #1 and #2 hitter in front of them. We needed it every year since Durham was traded. So what do the SOX do? they get rid of all the power and get some "tablesetters". IDIOTS.
If we had BOTH ...........we'd have a 20 game lead right now ...........


Arent the Sox still towards the top in HR hit?

Obviously they didnt get rid of all the power.

TaylorStSox
09-20-2005, 03:40 PM
Arent the Sox still towards the top in HR hit?

Obviously they didnt get rid of all the power.


Don't let the facts get in the way of a Hangar rant.


Lee in RF? Do you watch baseball? Jesus. that would be a nightmare!!!

likeawarlord
09-20-2005, 11:36 PM
Don't let the facts get in the way of a Hangar rant.


Lee in RF? Do you watch baseball? Jesus. that would be a nightmare!!!

well, how about lee in left, pods in center and rowand in right?

lee would provide decent slugging and run production, two things the white sox have not had enough of. don't mistake solid home run numbers for solid offensive production. lee would be an improvement (although probably not a huge one) over dye or everett.