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Muopsies
09-10-2005, 01:58 AM
He cost us this game. I don't care if you think Rowand was safe, that ball was not hit deep enough to warrant Rowand being sent. If he holds Rowand, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. What happened afterwards? Dye hit a deep fly ball. This is not an isolated incident. Cora has cost the Sox runs many many times during the year. How many times does he send Paul "no I'm not molasses" Konerko on a single and we see Paul get thrown out by 10 feet? Cora is not a major league 3rd base coach. I don't care if Ozzie is pals with him. He is going to cost us a crucial game in the playoffs if he keeps it up. He sucked all the momentum out of the team with that move. I can't say it enough but Cora must go and he must go soon.

Chisox003
09-10-2005, 02:24 AM
He cost us this game. I don't care if you think Rowand was safe, that ball was not hit deep enough to warrant Rowand being sent. If he holds Rowand, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. What happened afterwards? Dye hit a deep fly ball. This is not an isolated incident. Cora has cost the Sox runs many many times during the year. How many times does he send Paul "no I'm not molasses" Konerko on a single and we see Paul get thrown out by 10 feet? Cora is not a major league 3rd base coach. I don't care if Ozzie is pals with him. He is going to cost us a crucial game in the playoffs if he keeps it up. He sucked all the momentum out of the team with that move. I can't say it enough but Cora must go and he must go soon.
WSI is an absolute madhouse tonight

:thud:

chisoxfanatic
09-10-2005, 02:31 AM
He cost us this game. I don't care if you think Rowand was safe, that ball was not hit deep enough to warrant Rowand being sent. If he holds Rowand, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. What happened afterwards? Dye hit a deep fly ball. This is not an isolated incident. Cora has cost the Sox runs many many times during the year. How many times does he send Paul "no I'm not molasses" Konerko on a single and we see Paul get thrown out by 10 feet? Cora is not a major league 3rd base coach. I don't care if Ozzie is pals with him. He is going to cost us a crucial game in the playoffs if he keeps it up. He sucked all the momentum out of the team with that move. I can't say it enough but Cora must go and he must go soon.

Chips, is that you?

:darkclouds:

For the love of White Sox baseball, we still have the best record in the league and would have home field advantage throughout the playoffs if we can keep it up. I see NO reason to panic whatsoever. This team has had so many more "glory" days than not. A couple losses brings out the FODC. Unreal!

The Dude
09-10-2005, 02:37 AM
Chips, is that you?

:darkclouds:

For the love of White Sox baseball, we still have the best record in the league and would have home field advantage throughout the playoffs if we can keep it up. I see NO reason to panic whatsoever. This team has had so many more "glory" days than not. A couple losses brings out the FODC. Unreal!

He has got to be CHIPS!!!!! :dtroll:

Muopsies
09-10-2005, 02:38 AM
I"m not saying the sox suck or that we arent going to do well in the playoffs but that simply joey cora is not a good 3rd base coach. this is not an isolated incident, he's been this bad all year. i know everyone was like me when they saw cora sending rowand. we all knew he was going to be thrown out. cora must be like rick vaughn and needs to get glasses so he can get depth perception. stupidity like that will cost us a crucial game in the playoffs though.

chisoxfanatic
09-10-2005, 02:41 AM
This is not an isolated incident, he's been this bad all year.

No he hasn't been. I've gone to a ton of games this year and have noticed various players going through his stop sign. I can't comment on this particular incident, because I wasn't there, and it's hard to get a look at things of this nature from the view of a television. But it HAS happened more than a few times. You can't fault the 3B coach for that! All and all, they're STILL gonna be the #1 seed in the playoffs.

Muopsies
09-10-2005, 02:45 AM
we'll have to agree to disagree about cora. i just think he flat out sucks and is a liability and worry about the potential effects. to each his own i guess.

MERPER
09-10-2005, 02:59 AM
First of all, you are completely wrong in your initial situation... Blum was up next and it would have been bases loaded with 1 out....

Blum sucks at the plate and hitting a sac fly is no gurantee... SEE DYE'S FAILED ATTEMPT EARLIER IN GAME AFTER KONERKO'S LEADOFF DOUBLE

Bottom line is this: Cora coaches the way Ozzie wants him too.. All year long Ozzie has stressed the importance of his team playing aggressive baseball and putting the pressure on the opposing team to make the play...

That's all Cora was doing.. it was obvious to everyone that our offense was in a funk late in the game and not coming through... he saw a chance to get a big win and the guy made a perfect throw.. hats off to Rivera...

If the ball is one inch either way or 2 tenths of a second later we are discussing a White Sox Winner... calm the hell down!

Domeshot17
09-10-2005, 03:06 AM
I have to disagree, the 3 things a third base coach has to know like a book

(1) the signs
(2) the runner he is picking up
(3) the outfield arm

Cora waived Aaron the second the ball was hit. He had no clue Rivera actually has a good arm in the OF, or where the ball was. Cora would be a good bench coach/IF coach. He is an ozzie-lackey, high intenstiy, but lets his emotions control his thoughts. I have seen him send Paulie dead to rights many times throughout this year. Blum comes up, his fly ball would have gotten aaron in, or atleast given us one more chance. He blew it

Cora and Carl equally deserve :angry: :angry:

TheOldRoman
09-10-2005, 03:06 AM
He cost us this game. I don't care if you think Rowand was safe, that ball was not hit deep enough to warrant Rowand being sent. If he holds Rowand, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. What happened afterwards? Dye hit a deep fly ball. This is not an isolated incident. Cora has cost the Sox runs many many times during the year. How many times does he send Paul "no I'm not molasses" Konerko on a single and we see Paul get thrown out by 10 feet? Cora is not a major league 3rd base coach. I don't care if Ozzie is pals with him. He is going to cost us a crucial game in the playoffs if he keeps it up. He sucked all the momentum out of the team with that move. I can't say it enough but Cora must go and he must go soon.
1)You are insane.
2)Cora takes risks, and most of the time those risks have paid off.
3)Dye wasn't up next, Blum was. Blum didn't hit a deep fly ball. He hit a medium fly ball to right that Guerrero charged under. Maybe you dont know this, but Guerrero has the best arm in baseball. Rowand would not have scored on that fly out, and likely wouldn't have even tried to. Right or wrong, Cora decided that it was worth a shot with Blum coming up, seeing as the left fielder isn't known for his arm. Things happen fast during a game, and Im sure Cora would admit that the LF got to the ball quicker than it originally seemed, and he should have held Rowand. Cora figured it was worth the shot, seeing as the throw could be offline or dropped.

That play didnt cost us the game. Everett getting caught off first on a line out, Everett not running for Vlad's "double" and letting it fall, Iguchi's horrible throw (obstructed or not) and Buehrle's horrible outing againt a crappy offense combined with that play to cost us the game. If Buehrle pitched a halfway decent game, we wouldn't go to extras. If the Sox would have knocked in a runner in scoring position before the 11th, that play never happens. Get over it. Take Prozac. Chase it with Wild Turkey, and find the nearest mental hospital.

Banix12
09-10-2005, 03:27 AM
I have to disagree, the 3 things a third base coach has to know like a book

(1) the signs
(2) the runner he is picking up
(3) the outfield arm

Cora waived Aaron the second the ball was hit. He had no clue Rivera actually has a good arm in the OF, or where the ball was. Cora would be a good bench coach/IF coach. He is an ozzie-lackey, high intenstiy, but lets his emotions control his thoughts. I have seen him send Paulie dead to rights many times throughout this year. Blum comes up, his fly ball would have gotten aaron in, or atleast given us one more chance. He blew it

Cora and Carl equally deserve :angry: :angry:

I don't mind Cora being aggressive, it has worked more often to the sox advantage than it has to failure.

Most of the other times, I really had no problem with it except for once or twice with Paulie and AJ. This time though was just stupid. He has to be aware of Rivera's arm out there. The only guy in the Angels outfield I feel you can run with impunity on is Figgins. Both corners will gun you down from further distances than that in a second.

IowaSox1971
09-10-2005, 03:31 AM
Cora is an excellent third-base coach. Every now and then you're going to get a guy thrown out at home. More often than not, we've sent guys home who seemed to have less of a chance to score than Aaron did, and they've been safe. In this case, you're putting the pressure on the defense to make a very good play. Many times, the throw will be off, or the catcher won't hang on to the ball. The Angels made a great play. Give them credit. Don't blame Cora.

How could anyone complain about this when Bum was the guy up next?

HotelWhiteSox
09-10-2005, 03:45 AM
Why is he a dark cloud? He's not saying the club will fail or anything like that, we should be able to talk about aspects of the club that could use improvement or looked bad. Even Hawk criticizes once every blue moon (ripping on Pods the other day). Anyways...

I also don't like Cora, he's already cost us some runs but has gotten a pass since other areas of the team didn't come through in those games. He's been called on some of them, like when he's sent PK more than once this year and was out by a mile both times, but nothing will happen to him since he's Ozzie's little buddy. He's also gotten very lucky with some bad outfield throws and relays in the past few weeks. When the Manuel regime left, the only person I was sad to see go was Bruce Kim, I thought he did a great job coaching 3rd.

chitownhawkfan
09-10-2005, 03:48 AM
When I saw that he was sending Rowand, I got nervous. However, I liked the call, put the pressure on the defense. To get thrown out the defense must do three things 1. field the ball cleanly 2. get off a good throw 3. apply the tag. I'll take my chances with one of these usually going awry. Especially with Blum on deck, I thought it was a great gamble.

Mohoney
09-10-2005, 04:05 AM
You have to try and win the game there. It took an excellent play from both Rivera and Molina to keep Rowand from scoring on a bang-bang play. I know that the 2nd out at home is very much like the 1st or 3rd out at 3rd base, but Rowand isn't slow, and I have no problem with the decision because, even if he gets thrown out, we still have a runner at 2nd to try and get another hit with. Blum just didn't come through this time. Blaming Cora for a bang-bang play like that just seems a little unfair.

To be honest, Buehrle needs to stop giving up home runs to guys like Quinlan and preserve the 5-4 lead, but I honestly think that Buehrle's approach looks unusually tentative lately, like he's trying to save his arm during what may be a dead-arm phase for him. When the playoffs get here, I think it's going to be a different story.

The good news tonight? We tagged Washburn up for 5 runs, and he has been pretty hot lately. If this was October instead of September, I think we walk away with a victory tonight.

Mohoney
09-10-2005, 04:08 AM
When the Manuel regime left, the only person I was sad to see go was Bruce Kim, I thought he did a great job coaching 3rd.

And with that, all your credibility is completely shot. Bruce Kimm was brutal, plain and simple.

CYGarland20
09-10-2005, 04:33 AM
He cost us this game. I don't care if you think Rowand was safe, that ball was not hit deep enough to warrant Rowand being sent. If he holds Rowand, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. What happened afterwards? Dye hit a deep fly ball. This is not an isolated incident. Cora has cost the Sox runs many many times during the year. How many times does he send Paul "no I'm not molasses" Konerko on a single and we see Paul get thrown out by 10 feet? Cora is not a major league 3rd base coach. I don't care if Ozzie is pals with him. He is going to cost us a crucial game in the playoffs if he keeps it up. He sucked all the momentum out of the team with that move. I can't say it enough but Cora must go and he must go soon. Horrible decision by Cora to send Rowand. It was painfully obvious he was going to be out w/ a decent throw, and w/ only 1 out, a sac fly could have won it. Very disappointing outcome tonite, and the Indians don't seem like they ever lose :angry:

Hendu
09-10-2005, 04:41 AM
Juan Rivera has a great arm. Almost as good as Vlad's but definitely more dangerous because apparently teams haven't learned that you don't run on him. The guy had 14 outfield assists last year. Do your homework, Joey.

HotelWhiteSox
09-10-2005, 05:02 AM
And with that, all your credibility is completely shot. Bruce Kimm was brutal, plain and simple.

Well then I'd have to disagree, because I specifically remember being a little confused when he was let go, though it was obviously to give Ozzie's little buddy a job. Looked around for when coaching staff threads were made, and saw that others agreed with me on this one http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=28966&highlight=kimm I think many people didn't care because of the Cub affiliation, which is why people hated it when it was first announced, but then he turned out to be very solid.

I think he was easily better than Cora. Do a search here for 'Cora'. All those game threads that come up are instances where he's made a stupid ass decision. Going from this year alone, I specifically remember 5 instances in where the runner hasn't even been close at home. From watching these plays, it just tells me that he doesn't take : baserunner, outfielder position, and outfielder arms into his thinking, and just goes on instinct when he sees the ball hit. It gets translated into being 'aggressive' (after all, it's not that hard of a job, you must be successful sometimes), and a pass is given for the times the run did score and he got lucky because of a bad relay or throw.

It's not as big a deal as I'm implying with all the typing, a trained monkey can probably do the job and have good judgement in 2 years, but it gets annoying when he sends PK or AJ when there's no chance!

Mohoney
09-10-2005, 06:56 AM
It's not as big a deal as I'm implying with all the typing, a trained monkey can probably do the job and have good judgement in 2 years, but it gets annoying when he sends PK or AJ when there's no chance!

You're absolutely right. Cora sends PK, AJ, and Carl in bad situations too often for my taste as well. But Kimm would hardly ever take a chance, and his stop signs with 2 outs got really old, too.

I wasn't trying to say that Joey Cora is a great 3B coach, I was just trying to say that lamenting over Bruce Kimm being gone is lunacy. Bruce Kimm was the other extreme, and I guess the other extreme always looks way better than it actually is after a game like this.

I've heard similar comments lamenting our offense, like: "Remember when we used to mash the ball?", and the only thing I could respond with was: "Yeah, I do. You know what else I remember? Scoring 18 runs in a 3 game series and only winning one game."

Yes, we certainly need something closer to middle ground when it comes to Cora sending people home, but with Rowand running, I have to take a chance on winning the game there.

TornLabrum
09-10-2005, 07:57 AM
As I said in another thread, this was a bad decision by Cora. In fact it was a very bad decision. If I could tell on TV that Rivera was in great position to make the throw because he was moving in the right direction to set up his throw and was shallow enough where even a moderately bad throw would still get Rowand, then Cora should have seen that and put on the stop sign. Period.

HOWEVER, this does not make Cora a horrible third base coach who should be fired. It makes him aggressive, and in this case a little too aggressive. In a very slightly different set of circumstances (Rivera moving in a slightly different direction to retrieve the ball, the ball being just a little deeper, etc.), it would have been a good call, and we would have bee praising Cora for his aggressiveness. It's a split-second decision, and Cora got it wrong.

I don't know. Maybe the Sox' being so good this year has gone to some of our heads. It seems like being the best isn't good enough, and the only thing that will satisfy some is absolute perfection.

Ain't gonna happen.

soxtalker
09-10-2005, 08:25 AM
This brought to mind a play-off series many years ago -- the 1983 team against the O's. The play that is etched in the minds of Sox fans from that era is Dibber trying to run from 1st to 3rd on a base hit only to find that the runner on 3rd hadn't tried to run home. Now, during the regular season, that runner on 3rd would have been sent home (and possibly thrown out, depending on the opponent). We were used to playing aggressive baseball, and it served us well during the regular season against most teams. But in the playoffs, our opponents were one of the best teams in the league, and they were very focused on winning those games (i.e., it wasn't just another one of a long 162-game schedule). That's where the Angels are now. They are fighting for their lives, and they are a very good team.

This is what it will be like in the playoffs, and we need to modify our game appropriately. We can't have sloppy running like Everett getting caught off first base. Cora probably can't be sending Rowand in situations like this, as the chances of him getting thrown out are higher in play-off situations. I don't think that it is Cora being "good" or "bad", but, rather, can he modify an approach that may have served us well enough during the regular season? I don't know, as these are split-second decisions that rely upon habit or instinct.

TornLabrum
09-10-2005, 08:32 AM
For old farts it brings to mind Tony Cuccinello waving Sherm Lollar home (think at least as slow as Paulie) in the '59 Series. He was out by at least 20 feet.

getonbckthr
09-10-2005, 09:34 AM
He cost us this game. I don't care if you think Rowand was safe, that ball was not hit deep enough to warrant Rowand being sent. If he holds Rowand, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. What happened afterwards? Dye hit a deep fly ball. This is not an isolated incident. Cora has cost the Sox runs many many times during the year. How many times does he send Paul "no I'm not molasses" Konerko on a single and we see Paul get thrown out by 10 feet? Cora is not a major league 3rd base coach. I don't care if Ozzie is pals with him. He is going to cost us a crucial game in the playoffs if he keeps it up. He sucked all the momentum out of the team with that move. I can't say it enough but Cora must go and he must go soon.

i wonder how many games the white sox have won because of joey's aggressive baserunning mentality.

Viva Medias B's
09-10-2005, 09:46 AM
He cost us this game. I don't care if you think Rowand was safe, that ball was not hit deep enough to warrant Rowand being sent. If he holds Rowand, the bases are loaded with 2 outs. What happened afterwards? Dye hit a deep fly ball. This is not an isolated incident. Cora has cost the Sox runs many many times during the year. How many times does he send Paul "no I'm not molasses" Konerko on a single and we see Paul get thrown out by 10 feet? Cora is not a major league 3rd base coach. I don't care if Ozzie is pals with him. He is going to cost us a crucial game in the playoffs if he keeps it up. He sucked all the momentum out of the team with that move. I can't say it enough but Cora must go and he must go soon.

I may be considered to be one of the bigger of the dark clouds, but I think you're nuts.

chitownhawkfan
09-10-2005, 09:57 AM
I may be considered to be one of the bigger of the dark clouds, but I think you're nuts.

You know you have really crossed a line when other dark clouds are calling you a dark cloud.

TornLabrum
09-10-2005, 10:00 AM
i wonder how many games the white sox have won because of joey's aggressive baserunning mentality.

Right there is the problem. NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY, remembers those.

Optipessimism
09-10-2005, 10:26 AM
I have to disagree, the 3 things a third base coach has to know like a book

(1) the signs
(2) the runner he is picking up
(3) the outfield arm

Cora waived Aaron the second the ball was hit. He had no clue Rivera actually has a good arm in the OF, or where the ball was. Cora would be a good bench coach/IF coach. He is an ozzie-lackey, high intenstiy, but lets his emotions control his thoughts. I have seen him send Paulie dead to rights many times throughout this year. Blum comes up, his fly ball would have gotten aaron in, or atleast given us one more chance. He blew it

Cora and Carl equally deserve :angry: :angry:

BS. I was at the game. You never know what is going to happen if everyone holds on Uribe's single. You can't just say that Blum would have hit a fly ball because a different pitch could have been made resulting in a DP for example.

Cora isn't at fault here at all. Calls/plays don't always go in our favor, but he is keeping the team aggressive instead of letting them dog it. 7 times out of 10 Aaron scores on that play and the Sox win. Tell me, if Blum had come up and hit into an inning-ending DP, would you have been saying that Cora still should have held Aaron? Especially after the manner by which LA scored the winning run, by being aggressive?

BTW, Carl took away a HR which allowed us to even get to extra innings.

It's funny how this thread rips Cora but not Mark for having a bad game. This team is supposed to be built to win games when scoring 5 or more runs, but we lost it. So what? We're still going to win the division. Let Cora keep our guys running. I'd much rather stay with the 'throw caution to the wind' approach that has us on pace to win near 100 games. No sense in changing it now.

ja1022
09-10-2005, 10:27 AM
The thing with Cora is he always seems to be out of position and he make his decisions early. Last night, as soon as he realized that ball was through the hole, he was waving home Rowand. Very, very rarely do you see him waving a runner while working himself into a better position 15 to 20 feet down the third base line while continuing to evaluate the play as it is developing. When is the last time you saw a late stop sign from Cora. Last night as I'm watching on TV and seeing Rivera rounding into position, I'm screaming at the TV and Cora standing at the base waving away. I'd like to see him down the line and in position to throw up a late stop sign. He's 30 yards from the action; I don't know how he didn't see that Rowand was going to be shot by 15 feet when alot of us saw it.

BeviBall!
09-10-2005, 10:38 AM
It was the right decision to send him... Rivera made a perfect throw.

Guys, that was our first hit since the 5th (PK's HR). You have to try and steal the game there because you know Blum wouldn't have done anything... no one was doing anything.

Cora has been bad this season, but this one wasn't his fault.

jehosaphat
09-10-2005, 10:41 AM
1)You are insane.
Take Prozac. Chase it with Wild Turkey, and find the nearest mental hospital.

Prozac is always fun, Wild Turkey is as good as anything, but I don't understand what good sending anyone to Wrigley Field will do.

BeviBall!
09-10-2005, 10:41 AM
It's funny how this thread rips Cora but not Mark for having a bad game. This team is supposed to be built to win games when scoring 5 or more runs, but we lost it.

Exactly. Buehrle blew two leads... immediately after they were given to him. Funny thing was, I didn't see any flashing lights from the Dan Ryan. MB came up with another awful performance against a team with a pulse.

LongLiveFisk
09-10-2005, 10:45 AM
I was totally nervous when I saw Rowand coming around 3rd because I also thought the left fielder was too damn close and only someone with an absolute wuss arm who shouldn't even be a major leaguer wouldn't make that play. Also with only 1 out, it would have been nice to give the next hitter a shot at a sac fly maybe. I don't mind this play as much if we're playing the Royals but I definitely don't want to keep giving a team like the Angels more at-bats.

But you know how it goes, hindsight is 20/20. If the LF makes a bad throw or the catcher drops the ball, the Sox win, the fans are cheering and there's less bickering here. Oh well...today's another day! Hopefully Garland can get us back on the winning track.

SOXSINCE'70
09-10-2005, 10:55 AM
First of all, you are completely wrong in your initial situation... Blum was up next and it would have been bases loaded with 1 out....

Blum sucks at the plate and hitting a sac fly is no gurantee... SEE DYE'S FAILED ATTEMPT EARLIER IN GAME AFTER KONERKO'S LEADOFF DOUBLE

Bottom line is this: Cora coaches the way Ozzie wants him too.. All year long Ozzie has stressed the importance of his team playing aggressive baseball and putting the pressure on the opposing team to make the play...

That's all Cora was doing.. it was obvious to everyone that our offense was in a funk late in the game and not coming through... he saw a chance to get a big win and the guy made a perfect throw.. hats off to Rivera...

If the ball is one inch either way or 2 tenths of a second later we are discussing a White Sox Winner... calm the hell down!

I agree.You can blame Joey a little bit,but the majority of the blame goes
to the offense's inability to score.The two examples you posted are a perfect
example of this.Mike Scoscia picked Ozzie's pocket.Who among us thought Guerrero would keep running on a sacrifice?? And he's damn lucky he scored that run,because he stood and admired that so called "double" that he barely beat out as if it were a home run.
Round 1 to the Halos.But the Sox should counter with this.
As The Riddler once said to Batman (on the old TV show,not the comic book or movie),"You may have won the battle,but the war isn't over yet".

Like you said,chill a little.The Sox can still win 2 out of 3.And,to quote rock singer Meatlof,"2 out of 3 Ain't Bad".I just wish the Damn 'Toons would lose a few games!!:angry: :angry:

whtsxfn
09-10-2005, 10:59 AM
No, Cora did the right thing and there is no reason he should have been held. It was the right thing. Wasnt that a pretty nice play by Vlad to come around and score? I bet Angel fans think so. What if he was out though? They would blam Vlad if they lost. It all depends on what the outcome is, huh? Cora is right when he is safe, and wrong when he is out. Give Rivera credit, that was a hell of a throw. Rowand definitly should have been sent, even though afterwards, I know its easy for you to second guess.

ja1022
09-10-2005, 11:01 AM
7 times out of 10 Aaron scores on that play and the Sox win.

It's funny how this thread rips Cora but not Mark for having a bad game. I'd much rather stay with the 'throw caution to the wind' approach that has us on pace to win near 100 games. No sense in changing it now.

I'd peg it at 7 out of 10 times he's out on that play. I mean, we're talking about one of the best outfielders in the world, (yes it's only Juan Rivera, but he's a Major League outfielder) throwing out a runner from 150 feet or so.

Agreed about Buehrle, and I think Buehrle would agree with you too.

Final thought: I was looking for Podsednik to run for Rowand in that situation. I know Rowand isn't a slug out there, but with Dye shooting the gaps I thought Podsednik running there would have made sense. If the game is extended, he goes to center. I wonder if he'd have had three or four steps on Rowand going from second to home, making it close at the plate.
It makes me wonder if his legs are completely under him yet...

whtsxfn
09-10-2005, 11:04 AM
Rowand got a horrible jump as well... He should have scored on that play.

harwar
09-10-2005, 11:04 AM
Joey is doing what Ozzie wants him to do.
He said when he took over as manager that he wants his players and coaches to be really aggressive on the basepaths.
He said as much in last nights post game press conference.

MarySwiss
09-10-2005, 11:06 AM
This brought to mind a play-off series many years ago -- the 1983 team against the O's. The play that is etched in the minds of Sox fans from that era is Dibber trying to run from 1st to 3rd on a base hit only to find that the runner on 3rd hadn't tried to run home. Now, during the regular season, that runner on 3rd would have been sent home (and possibly thrown out, depending on the opponent). We were used to playing aggressive baseball, and it served us well during the regular season against most teams. But in the playoffs, our opponents were one of the best teams in the league, and they were very focused on winning those games (i.e., it wasn't just another one of a long 162-game schedule). That's where the Angels are now. They are fighting for their lives, and they are a very good team.

This is what it will be like in the playoffs, and we need to modify our game appropriately. We can't have sloppy running like Everett getting caught off first base. Cora probably can't be sending Rowand in situations like this, as the chances of him getting thrown out are higher in play-off situations. I don't think that it is Cora being "good" or "bad", but, rather, can he modify an approach that may have served us well enough during the regular season? I don't know, as these are split-second decisions that rely upon habit or instinct.

I remember that Dibber play like it was yesterday, and I've always thought Dibber got too much of the blame for that. The third base coach--Bobby Knoop, I believe--had been sending runners from 3rd all year and all of a sudden he didn't, and Dibber got hung out to dry.

I absolutely agree that these are split-second decisions and instinctive. I don't know if Cora should modify his approach, even if he can. It didn't work out too well in the Dibber case. IMHO, if being aggressive is what gets us into the playoffs, we'd probably be wise to stay with it.

ja1022
09-10-2005, 11:10 AM
Rowand got a horrible jump as well... He should have scored on that play.

Not if he got a horrible jump.... Again maybe if Cora is in a better position to see the play developing and hold a runner late....

Hangar18
09-10-2005, 11:13 AM
I couldnt wait to talk about Cora this AM, looks like ive been beat to it.
Joey Cora doesnt seem to remember who is on base, and who is in the outfield.
He has angered me with his "wave-everyone-home" approach, I like the agressiveness .........if we have agressive runners. Cora, in combination with Ozz, cost us that saturday nite game against the Padres. Konerko leads off in the 9th with a single. Dye I believe Doubled, but Paulie didnt have a good jump or lead, and was barely rounding 2nd when the outfielders got the ball .......... At that point, im thinking ok, Outfielder has ball, Slow runner, Bad jump ........= keep him at 3rd. Nope, he sent him and Konerko was out by 30 feet.

Dont get me wrong .......I like the agressiveness. But Cora is taking way too many stupid chances. Its one thing if it takes a perfect throw to get our guy out ........but Ive seen way too many guys getting thrown out by a country mile.

BigEdWalsh
09-10-2005, 11:27 AM
No, Cora did the right thing and there is no reason he should have been held. It was the right thing. Wasnt that a pretty nice play by Vlad to come around and score? I bet Angel fans think so. What if he was out though? They would blam Vlad if they lost. It all depends on what the outcome is, huh? Cora is right when he is safe, and wrong when he is out. Give Rivera credit, that was a hell of a throw. Rowand definitly should have been sent, even though afterwards, I know its easy for you to second guess.

Second guessing is one thing sometimes but in this case, AS Rowand rounded 3rd I was screaming, "No!!" wishing that Cora was doing the same. As others have pointed out Rivera was not that deep. The play at the plate was actually closer than I thought it would be but I think he should have been held up. I love the normally aggressive baserunning but in this case, simply NO!. Cora was wrong. Oh well, not a big deal. It wasn't the lone reason the Sox lost.

RallyBowl
09-10-2005, 11:30 AM
:threadblows:


Guys get thrown out at the plate. Big deal. It didn't cost us the game. He was being aggressive, and thats what good teams, players, and coaches do. My guess is that if he didn't send him, we would have saw an equally crappy thread about how he must go because Rowand has wheels and he would have definitely scored and we would have won and Cora cost us the game by not being aggressive. Maybe the thread starter should apply for the 3B coach job so we can all monday morning quarterback him. Get off Cora. He is part of our team, and we wouldn't be where we are without him.

ja1022
09-10-2005, 11:30 AM
........but Ive seen way too many guys getting thrown out by a country mile.

Agreed. I like Cora and the aggressive approach, but I've seen eight, maybe 10 guys thrown out by 15 to 20 feet. That's too many. I've got absolutely no problem with guys being thrown out at the plate on close plays. That's aggressive. When guys are being shot down by 15 to 20 feet, that borders on dumb.

TornLabrum
09-10-2005, 11:41 AM
:threadblows:


Guys get thrown out at the plate. Big deal. It didn't cost us the game. He was being aggressive, and thats what good teams, players, and coaches do. My guess is that if he didn't send him, we would have saw an equally crappy thread about how he must go because Rowand has wheels and he would have definitely scored and we would have won and Cora cost us the game by not being aggressive. Maybe the thread starter should apply for the 3B coach job so we can all monday morning quarterback him. Get off Cora. He is part of our team, and we wouldn't be where we are without him.

Actually, since that was the winning run, it did cost us the game.

BigEdWalsh
09-10-2005, 11:44 AM
:threadblows:


Guys get thrown out at the plate. Big deal. It didn't cost us the game. He was being aggressive, and thats what good teams, players, and coaches do. My guess is that if he didn't send him, we would have saw an equally crappy thread about how he must go because Rowand has wheels and he would have definitely scored and we would have won and Cora cost us the game by not being aggressive. Maybe the thread starter should apply for the 3B coach job so we can all monday morning quarterback him. Get off Cora. He is part of our team, and we wouldn't be where we are without him.

I disagree. I don't think this thread does blow. No, I'm not sure Cora needs to go, but maybe. Not just based on this play, that'd be ridiculous. But as others have pointed out there have been many similar instances to this one. Aggressive is one thing but overly-aggressive bordering on dumb is another.
I agree that this play alone did not cost us the game. But, I disagree that if Cora didn't send him you would be seeing an equally crappy thread complaining that he should have sent Rowand. It was way too risky, plain and simple and you could see that. The TV had a perfect angle of the play developing. Rivera had the ball as Rowand rounded 3rd and way more often than not, anybody is gonna be thrown out at the plate on that play.

RallyBowl
09-10-2005, 11:56 AM
I disagree. I don't think this thread does blow. No, I'm not sure Cora needs to go, but maybe. Not just based on this play, that'd be ridiculous. But as others have pointed out there have been many similar instances to this one. Aggressive is one thing but overly-aggressive bordering on dumb is another.
I agree that this play alone did not cost us the game. But, I disagree that if Cora didn't send him you would be seeing an equally crappy thread complaining that he should have sent Rowand. It was way too risky, plain and simple and you could see that. The TV had a perfect angle of the play developing. Rivera had the ball as Rowand rounded 3rd and way more often than not, anybody is gonna be thrown out at the plate on that play.

Can we agree to disagree then? And Torn, I guess you could look at it two ways. You can blame the kicker who missed the game winning field goal, or you can blame the rest of the team for not taking advantage of opportunities when they had them. If the Sox had capitalized earlier, we would not have even been in the position for Cora to make a decision. I believe that the missed opportunities earlier were what lost the game. Again, can we agree to disagree? I don't want this thread to turn all Psycho like the post game thread!:D:
Also, I'm in too good of a mood thinking about the *** whipping we are gonna hand Bartolo today.

jabrch
09-10-2005, 12:47 PM
Nobody bitched when Ozuna stole home...but the whiners are out in full force over this... It doesn't surprise me.

We have been aggressive on the basepaths all season. Unless you feel it is wrong to be taking as many extra bases as we have, you shouldn't be bitching about this one. Where were the people bitching about PK stretching a single into a double on Vlad's arm? Nowhere to be heard...

Baby Fisk
09-10-2005, 01:47 PM
Cora's been sending guys home like a madman all year. This was nothing new. I would have sent Cora too.

TornLabrum
09-10-2005, 01:53 PM
Can we agree to disagree then? And Torn, I guess you could look at it two ways. You can blame the kicker who missed the game winning field goal, or you can blame the rest of the team for not taking advantage of opportunities when they had them. If the Sox had capitalized earlier, we would not have even been in the position for Cora to make a decision. I believe that the missed opportunities earlier were what lost the game. Again, can we agree to disagree? I don't want this thread to turn all Psycho like the post game thread!:D:
Also, I'm in too good of a mood thinking about the *** whipping we are gonna hand Bartolo today.

Hell, I'll go one further. If the idiotic balk call hadn't been made, LA doesn't score those runs, and we're not having this conversation...or as my dad was fond of saying, "and if the dog hadn't stopped to ****, he'd have caught a rabbit."

batmanZoSo
09-10-2005, 02:14 PM
First of all, you are completely wrong in your initial situation... Blum was up next and it would have been bases loaded with 1 out....

Blum sucks at the plate and hitting a sac fly is no gurantee... SEE DYE'S FAILED ATTEMPT EARLIER IN GAME AFTER KONERKO'S LEADOFF DOUBLE

Bottom line is this: Cora coaches the way Ozzie wants him too.. All year long Ozzie has stressed the importance of his team playing aggressive baseball and putting the pressure on the opposing team to make the play...

That's all Cora was doing.. it was obvious to everyone that our offense was in a funk late in the game and not coming through... he saw a chance to get a big win and the guy made a perfect throw.. hats off to Rivera...

If the ball is one inch either way or 2 tenths of a second later we are discussing a White Sox Winner... calm the hell down!

Bases loaded, 1 out, tie game and a drawn in outfield. That's what we were looking at if Rowand wasn't sent. I mean good god. We have one chance with Blum to end it on an easy fly ball, and still another even if he does fail like you'd expect him to. It was just stupid. Aggressive is one thing, but this crossed the line.

Soxfest
09-10-2005, 03:23 PM
Never could stand Cora as a player or coach.

mdep524
09-10-2005, 03:43 PM
Nobody bitched when Ozuna stole home...but the whiners are out in full force over this... It doesn't surprise me.

We have been aggressive on the basepaths all season. Unless you feel it is wrong to be taking as many extra bases as we have, you shouldn't be bitching about this one. Where were the people bitching about PK stretching a single into a double on Vlad's arm? Nowhere to be heard... Totally different situations. Every scenario is different and should be treated differently. You can't just say that because we were aggressive in situation B we need to be aggressive in situation B.

And you can't just lump all baserunning mistakes as an acceptable by-product of being aggressive. Sending Rowand last night was not aggressive, it was stupid and bad baseball.

SoxinAZ
09-10-2005, 04:05 PM
Unfortunately, if the great OZ is the manager, Joey will be there.:angry:

TornLabrum
09-10-2005, 06:22 PM
You can't just say that because we were aggressive in situation B we need to be aggressive in situation B.

Come again?

antitwins13
09-11-2005, 02:11 PM
:threadblows:


Guys get thrown out at the plate. Big deal. It didn't cost us the game. He was being aggressive, and thats what good teams, players, and coaches do. My guess is that if he didn't send him, we would have saw an equally crappy thread about how he must go because Rowand has wheels and he would have definitely scored and we would have won and Cora cost us the game by not being aggressive. Maybe the thread starter should apply for the 3B coach job so we can all monday morning quarterback him. Get off Cora. He is part of our team, and we wouldn't be where we are without him.


It's Joey's aggressiveness that personifies Ozzie Ball. You gotta take the good with the bad. It's kind of hard to fire a guy who's helped a team to the best record in baseball for most of the season

deck27
09-11-2005, 03:41 PM
The problem I have is that you've got a guy on the bench chewing sunflower seeds that flat out flies. With the game on the line, why wasn't Willie Harris brought in to pinch run?

Beauty35thStreet
09-11-2005, 06:08 PM
I'd prefer to say bases loaded with one out is a good thing than getting an out. Bottom line is this: Cora sent home an out. The throw was bad and he still nailed him by a long way. .2 of a second is abusrd. This play was not close at all. This wasn't aggressiveness, this was just stupid.



First of all, you are completely wrong in your initial situation... Blum was up next and it would have been bases loaded with 1 out....

Blum sucks at the plate and hitting a sac fly is no gurantee... SEE DYE'S FAILED ATTEMPT EARLIER IN GAME AFTER KONERKO'S LEADOFF DOUBLE

Bottom line is this: Cora coaches the way Ozzie wants him too.. All year long Ozzie has stressed the importance of his team playing aggressive baseball and putting the pressure on the opposing team to make the play...

That's all Cora was doing.. it was obvious to everyone that our offense was in a funk late in the game and not coming through... he saw a chance to get a big win and the guy made a perfect throw.. hats off to Rivera...

If the ball is one inch either way or 2 tenths of a second later we are discussing a White Sox Winner... calm the hell down!

Beauty35thStreet
09-11-2005, 06:13 PM
This is ridiculous. How can you compare a planned steal home to this? It's one thing to chance close plays, but running like an idiot doesn't fall under the lable of "aggresiveness."

Nobody bitched when Ozuna stole home...but the whiners are out in full force over this... It doesn't surprise me.

We have been aggressive on the basepaths all season. Unless you feel it is wrong to be taking as many extra bases as we have, you shouldn't be bitching about this one. Where were the people bitching about PK stretching a single into a double on Vlad's arm? Nowhere to be heard...