PDA

View Full Version : Question re: force-out rules


Erik The Red
09-07-2005, 08:47 PM
I've sent this question a handful of times to Hawk and DJ, but they've never answered it. So, here goes nothing.

Here's the situation:

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits a chopper between the pitcher and the first-base line. Pitcher fields it close to the base line and decides to tag the batter out instead of throwing to first to get the force. The runner on 3rd crosses home plate before the tag is applied.

Now, since the ball was not thrown to first, is it not considered a force-out? And if it's not a force, does the run score?

Red Barchetta
09-07-2005, 09:03 PM
The batter is obviously out and the run does not count. Throwing the ball to first vs. tagging the batter doesn't matter. The batter must reach base safely in order to allow the run to score if there are two outs.

MisterB
09-07-2005, 09:05 PM
I've sent this question a handful of times to Hawk and DJ, but they've never answered it. So, here goes nothing.

Here's the situation:

Bases loaded, 2 outs. Batter hits a chopper between the pitcher and the first-base line. Pitcher fields it close to the base line and decides to tag the batter out instead of throwing to first to get the force. The runner on 3rd crosses home plate before the tag is applied.

Now, since the ball was not thrown to first, is it not considered a force-out? And if it's not a force, does the run score?

As long as the batter is retired before reaching first base, the run cannot score. The batter must reach first safely in order for the run to score in that situation.

Erik The Red
09-07-2005, 09:09 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. Thanks, guys!

SOXintheBURGH
09-07-2005, 11:27 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. Thanks, guys!

Ya know thats weird, I was wondering the same thing myself last night.:o:

Erik The Red
09-08-2005, 02:32 AM
Ya know thats weird, I was wondering the same thing myself last night.:o:
Ya know... I'm beginning to think we were separated at birth. :redface:

D. TODD
09-08-2005, 11:52 AM
That is a continuous play, so no run scores. The runner must reach his next base and then try to advance for the run to score.

Frater Perdurabo
09-08-2005, 12:20 PM
How about this situation:

Runners on first and third, two outs.

Pitcher throws to first baseman to try to pick off runner on first base. Astute runner on third breaks for home as first baseman lazily throws the ball back to the pitcher, who bobbles the ball. Suddenly aware of the runner breaking for home, pitcher fires a fastball to the catcher, who steps forward to try to receive the throw. Astute batter swings at the pitch, makes contact and hits a tiny dribbing fair ball right in front of the plate, and runs toward first base. Catcher fields the ball and attempts to tag out runner coming from third, but runner beats the tag and crosses the plate, umpire calls "safe." Batter, who hit the tiny squibber, reaches first safely. Runner who was on first, who was delayed in breaking for second base on the ground ball because he dusted himself off after sliding back to first on the pickoff attempt, is midway between first and second base. Catcher throws to second baseman (who is up on the infield grass), who tags out the runner before he reaches the bag. Does the run count?

D. TODD
09-08-2005, 12:30 PM
No the force out is a continuous play. The runner did not reach

his next base. The scenario was a bit far fetched, as the throw home after the pick-off attempt could not be seen as a pitch.

A situation using the continuous play rule almost came into affect the other day when Timo almost was doubled up at first, while a run tagged and scored from third. Since Timo never was safely back after the fly ball, the run that crossed home well before he would have been doubled off would not have counted. If he tagged and then tried to advance, the run would count.

ilsox7
09-08-2005, 12:33 PM
How about this situation:

Runners on first and third, two outs.

Pitcher throws to first baseman to try to pick off runner on first base. Astute runner on third breaks for home as first baseman lazily throws the ball back to the pitcher, who bobbles the ball. Suddenly aware of the runner breaking for home, pitcher fires a fastball to the catcher, who steps forward to try to receive the throw. Astute batter swings at the pitch, makes contact and hits a tiny dribbing fair ball right in front of the plate, and runs toward first base. Catcher fields the ball and attempts to tag out runner coming from third, but runner beats the tag and crosses the plate, umpire calls "safe." Batter, who hit the tiny squibber, reaches first safely. Runner who was on first, who was delayed in breaking for second base on the ground ball because he dusted himself off after sliding back to first on the pickoff attempt, is midway between first and second base. Catcher throws to second baseman (who is up on the infield grass), who tags out the runner before he reaches the bag. Does the run count?

I'm pretty sure this play would fall under interference and the "batter" would immediately be out and the ball ruled dead. Runners would return to their original bases or in this case the inning would end.

SOXPHILE
09-08-2005, 12:34 PM
How about this situation:

Runners on first and third, two outs.

Pitcher throws to first baseman to try to pick off runner on first base. Astute runner on third breaks for home as first baseman lazily throws the ball back to the pitcher, who bobbles the ball. Suddenly aware of the runner breaking for home, pitcher fires a fastball to the catcher, who steps forward to try to receive the throw. Astute batter swings at the pitch, makes contact and hits a tiny dribbing fair ball right in front of the plate, and runs toward first base. Catcher fields the ball and attempts to tag out runner coming from third, but runner beats the tag and crosses the plate, umpire calls "safe." Batter, who hit the tiny squibber, reaches first safely. Runner who was on first, who was delayed in breaking for second base on the ground ball because he dusted himself off after sliding back to first on the pickoff attempt, is midway between first and second base. Catcher throws to second baseman (who is up on the infield grass), who tags out the runner before he reaches the bag. Does the run count?

In that case, I think the batter is automatically out for interference. The ball the pitcher threw to the catcher wouldn't be considered a pitch for the batter to swing at because the pitcher is not on the rubber and set. The pitcher was just throwing home to make a play, not a pitch to the batter.

Ol' No. 2
09-08-2005, 01:16 PM
How about this situation:

Runners on first and third, two outs.

Pitcher throws to first baseman to try to pick off runner on first base. Astute runner on third breaks for home as first baseman lazily throws the ball back to the pitcher, who bobbles the ball. Suddenly aware of the runner breaking for home, pitcher fires a fastball to the catcher, who steps forward to try to receive the throw. Astute batter swings at the pitch, makes contact and hits a tiny dribbing fair ball right in front of the plate, and runs toward first base. Catcher fields the ball and attempts to tag out runner coming from third, but runner beats the tag and crosses the plate, umpire calls "safe." Batter, who hit the tiny squibber, reaches first safely. Runner who was on first, who was delayed in breaking for second base on the ground ball because he dusted himself off after sliding back to first on the pickoff attempt, is midway between first and second base. Catcher throws to second baseman (who is up on the infield grass), who tags out the runner before he reaches the bag. Does the run count?Tough time falling asleep last night?:tongue:

Paulwny
09-08-2005, 01:47 PM
I have one that had occurred and damn if I can remember the ruling. This may have happened during the late 60's early 70's and I believe it was during a Cardinal game.

Runner on 1st, pitched ball in the dirt partially deflected by the catcher, the ball rolls a few feet behind the umpire, the runner breaks for 2nd, the ump ( forgot there was a runner at 1st) hands the catcher a new ball, the catcher thinking this is the game ball throws toward 2nd, but the ball sails into cf and the runner proceeds to 3rd base.

Any guesses or anyone remember this?

tebman
09-08-2005, 02:44 PM
I have one that had occurred and damn if I can remember the ruling. This may have happened during the late 60's early 70's and I believe it was during a Cardinal game.

Runner on 1st, pitched ball in the dirt partially deflected by the catcher, the ball rolls a few feet behind the umpire, the runner breaks for 2nd, the ump ( forgot there was a runner at 1st) hands the catcher a new ball, the catcher thinking this is the game ball throws toward 2nd, but the ball sails into cf and the runner proceeds to 3rd base.

Any guesses or anyone remember this?
I remember hearing that one too, and I can't remember either what the ruling was. I think(?) that the new ball was not a game ball, so the runner was free to proceed as far as he could get away with.

But my memory is foggy. :?:

Frater Perdurabo
09-08-2005, 05:18 PM
In that case, I think the batter is automatically out for interference. The ball the pitcher threw to the catcher wouldn't be considered a pitch for the batter to swing at because the pitcher is not on the rubber and set. The pitcher was just throwing home to make a play, not a pitch to the batter.

So then what is the difference with executing a suicide squeeze? In a suicide squeeze, doesn't the batter use his bat to "hit/bunt" the ball that the pitcher throws to the catcher?

Specifically, can an umpire arbitrarily judge whether or not a ball thrown by the pitcher to the catcher is a "pitch" or an effort to nail a runner attempting to steal the base? Could he call a balk? :redneck

ilsox7
09-08-2005, 05:26 PM
So then what is the difference with executing a suicide squeeze? In a suicide squeeze, doesn't the batter use his bat to "hit/bunt" the ball that the pitcher throws to the catcher?

Specifically, can an umpire arbitrarily judge whether or not a ball thrown by the pitcher to the catcher is a "pitch" or an effort to nail a runner attempting to steal the base? Could he call a balk? :redneck

A pitched ball starts with a pitcher engaging the rubber. So, on a suicide squeeze, the pitcher would engage the rubber, make his delivery and pitch the ball to the catcher. In the other example, it is simply a thrown ball from pitcher to catcher b/c the pitcher is no longer engaging the rubber. If that makes sense.

Frater Perdurabo
09-09-2005, 12:57 PM
A pitched ball starts with a pitcher engaging the rubber. So, on a suicide squeeze, the pitcher would engage the rubber, make his delivery and pitch the ball to the catcher. In the other example, it is simply a thrown ball from pitcher to catcher b/c the pitcher is no longer engaging the rubber. If that makes sense.

Fair enough. I thought the same thing last night when I was again having trouble falling asleep.

So what if, in my example, the pitcher actually threw the ball to the catcher from the rubber (engaged the rubber) after accepting the throw back from the first baseman?

ilsox7
09-09-2005, 01:31 PM
Fair enough. I thought the same thing last night when I was again having trouble falling asleep.

So what if, in my example, the pitcher actually threw the ball to the catcher from the rubber (engaged the rubber) after accepting the throw back from the first baseman?


The umpire has to put the ball in play, I think. So, if the pitcher attempted a pick-off at 1st and received a throw back from the 1st baseman while the runner broke from home, even if the pitcher was touching the rubber, it owuld not be a pitched ball b/c it's a continuous play and the umpire has not put the ball in play. So if he threw home and the batter interferred, it would be interference. Hope that makes sense. Kinda tough for me to put all if this in words that even I understand. :smile: