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FielderJones
09-05-2005, 02:19 PM
:winner

What an outing for Brandon! He just handled that dangerous lineup in their own park; only 3 hits, and 7 Ks! Also, kudos due to Timo for getting the offense started with yet another clutch two-out hit. I think that really took a lot of pressure off the kid.

The win gives the us a five game lead for home field. Makes that plane ride home just a bit nicer!

:supernana::bandance::supernana::bandance::superna na:

DumpJerry
09-05-2005, 02:20 PM
Thank goodness for rain.:supernana: :bandance: :supernana: :bandance: :supernana:

A little nervous at the end.

Memo to KW: Don't trade McCarthy under any circumstances. Today he was great (again)! Two McCarthy outings in a row with no runs given up! Bring on the post-season.:D:

Not the best overall played game of the year, but McCarthy is a gem.

I suppose the Dark Clouds will complain that the Sox hitters are still averaging three outs per inning.

Brian26
09-05-2005, 02:21 PM
Sometimes the best trades are the ones that aren't made. McCarthy, Jenks, and Anderson have all contributed down the stretch, and that's a thing of beauty. It's exciting to see homegrown talent make a difference. BMac was awesome today.

Frankly Missing
09-05-2005, 02:22 PM
i know what boston can do with their 3 runs

BRDSR
09-05-2005, 02:22 PM
I suppose the Dark Clouds will complain that the Sox hitters are still averaging three outs per inning.

Haha! Thats funny right there.

If we meet the Red Sox in the post season, I'm glad this is the game they'll remember playing most recently against us. But a memo to Ozzie: Jenks does NOT pitch against the Red Sox in the ALCS.

17!

RallyBowl
09-05-2005, 02:23 PM
Brandon is the man. Great game, should be a nice ride home. Anyone want to go meet them at the airport?

whtsx1959
09-05-2005, 02:23 PM
For those who couldn't watch or listen to the game, don't let the score fool you, this was basically a 5-0 win

The Dude
09-05-2005, 02:23 PM
Wheres our favorite troll Fenway today??

noquitter
09-05-2005, 02:23 PM
But a memo to Ozzie: Jenks does NOT pitch against the Red Sox in the ALCS.Wow. you're freaking out in multiple threads. :o:

Brian26
09-05-2005, 02:23 PM
Magic Number = 17.
AL Central Lead = 9.0

:bandance:

soxjim
09-05-2005, 02:23 PM
Lets go back home and beat on the Royals. way to go Bmac. Magic number 17 and shrinking with each passing moment.:bandance:

Brian26
09-05-2005, 02:24 PM
Wheres our favorite troll Fenway today??

I've never considered Fenway a "troll". You're way offbase there.

Foulke You
09-05-2005, 02:24 PM
Wow...McCarthy was just awesome today. That is two starts in a row against two of the most potent offenses in the AL and he gives up the big ZERO against both. Very impressive. Will there be room on the playoff roster for him? I'd definitely take that arm in the pen over Adkins or Vizcaino at this point.

Also, Uribe is finally starting to swing that bat again. It's about friggin' time! Paulie is also locked in big time.

I could've done without all the baserunning blunders from the Sox today though. Very annoying.

Cowhead418
09-05-2005, 02:24 PM
Magic Number = 17.
AL Central Lead = 9.0

:bandance:
How did our lead go down with this win?:tongue:

chisoxmike
09-05-2005, 02:24 PM
McCarthy STUNNED the Red Sox nation. Looks like the Red Sox fans have come up with a new annoying chant... YOOOUUUUUU. Worse than the Leeeewww for the Twins.

:winner

NSSoxFan
09-05-2005, 02:25 PM
Wheres our favorite troll Fenway today??

Him and his pal RSN33 are too busy chatting about how this was the most important game of the year in the MLB.

:bandance: :gulp: :bandance:

17. The celebration is coming...

OzzieBall
09-05-2005, 02:25 PM
Had to watch it pop up online, but it sure looks like the kid is a keeper.

Seemed to have a lot of guys on base today and we came through with some clutch hits, but this game could have been a blowout. Widger seemed to have multiple RBI opps and did not capitalize.

But, the biggest thing is we went out and beat up their number 1. I just dont see how the Red Sox have the pitching to keep up with a team like the white sox if Manny and Ortiz can be controlled. They are a boom or bust team.

Happy Labor Day all and a White Sox winner
:gulp:

DumpJerry
09-05-2005, 02:25 PM
I've never considered Fenway a "troll". You're way offbase there.
I second that. He's way too knowledgable to be a troll.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 02:26 PM
Perfect. A Sox victory and it's barely 2 o'clock in the afternoon here in Chicago. Get 'em on a plane and back home with plenty of time to spare. The KC game isn't for another 29 hours.

:thumbsup:

NSSoxFan
09-05-2005, 02:26 PM
I've never considered Fenway a "troll". You're way offbase there.

He walks that fine line so well, doesn't he?

TaylorStSox
09-05-2005, 02:26 PM
Wheres our favorite troll Fenway today??


Fenway's a troll? :?:



Good pitching and timely hitting. :gulp:

I wouldn't mind seeing Harris as a defensive replacement in the late innings. I wasn't bothered by Jenks hanging 2 curveballs. You can't give the Red Sox 4 outs in an inning. They're just too stacked.

Brian26
09-05-2005, 02:26 PM
How did our lead go down with this win?:tongue:

LOL, I just checked it and realized my error. Lead, currently, is 10.0 games:D:

:bandance:

Frankfan4life
09-05-2005, 02:27 PM
I knew Graffy would be tough in the clutch. Jenks is young, he's got a lot to learn about ML hitters.

But, who cares about a shutout anyway. This win was huge. The magic number is down to 17. Cleveland can't gain any ground, we knock another game off the schedule, and we beat a potential playoff opponent.

All in a day's work.

Brian26
09-05-2005, 02:28 PM
He walks that fine line so well, doesn't he?

He posts a lot of interesting stuff and never rubs anything in our faces. Maybe I'm wrong though...he's always been respectful as far as I'm concerned.

Wsoxmike59
09-05-2005, 02:28 PM
Brandon McCarthy was absolutely outstanding for the 2nd appearance in a row! Good job on shutting down a fine offensive team like the BoSox.

WTG White Sox for winning such an important game, flying all the way back to Boston for a 1 game make up, and quiet the Fenway faithful.

"Go Sawx!!!"

VivaOzzie
09-05-2005, 02:28 PM
On the postgame, Kruk just rolled out to bed to say that the Sox arent for real because they dont have "that bopper in the middle of the lineup." This just after Paulie went 2-4 with 2B and a HR, not to mention a nice pick to end the game.


:walnuts
"Thanks, Jackass."

HITMEN OF 77
09-05-2005, 02:29 PM
YES!! Great pitching by McCarthy, we win on ESPN and Konerko goes 2-4 with an hr, rbi and 2 runs, what more could I ask for. :D:

shoota
09-05-2005, 02:30 PM
Looking outside just the Sox victory, sitting with family on Labor Day watching the American League's-best White Sox play is a pleasure.

/I just heard Jimmy Buffett's "Margaritaville" as buffer music on Brian Dolgin's postgame show.

Nice game Brandon.

delben91
09-05-2005, 02:30 PM
McCarthy was flat out dealing. That 7th inning where he started with 103 pitches, and proceeded to strike out 2 of the 3 men he faced that inning. Talk about impressive.

Bring on KC! Go SOX! :gulp:

Brian26
09-05-2005, 02:30 PM
On the postgame, Kruk just rolled out to bed to say that the Sox arent for real because they dont have "that bopper in the middle of the lineup."

Does Kruk still have white powder on his chin from the dozen donuts he just scarfed down before going on air?

TaylorStSox
09-05-2005, 02:30 PM
He posts a lot of interesting stuff and never rubs anything in our faces. Maybe I'm wrong though...he's always been respectful as far as I'm concerned.

Even though he's a Red Sox fan, he's an asset to this site IMO. He posts good info and is always respectful to the Sox and posters.

peeonwrigley
09-05-2005, 02:31 PM
YES!! Great pitching by McCarthy, we win on ESPN and Konerko goes 2-4 with an hr, rbi and 2 runs, what more could I ask for. :D:

Game was on ESPN? Must have been blacked out here, of course I watched w/ Hawk and DJ anyhow.

Nice win.

Chisox353014
09-05-2005, 02:31 PM
Great game for BMac. That's only the 3rd game Boston has lost at home in the last 25.
This one will go a long way towards wrapping home field all the way through the playoffs. Despite today, I'd rather not have to face Boston at Fenway too often in October.
:bandance:

VivaOzzie
09-05-2005, 02:31 PM
Does Kruk still have white powder on his chin from the dozen donuts he just scarfed down before going on air?

:rolling:

mdep524
09-05-2005, 02:31 PM
Great win. Our rookie beat their "ace." Great, great win. :bandance: Undefeated in September. :smile:

peeonwrigley
09-05-2005, 02:32 PM
/I just heard Jimmy Buffett's "Margaritaville" as buffer music on Brian Dolgin's postgame show.


I would imagine Wrigleyville is the ultimate

:chunks

this weekend.

delben91
09-05-2005, 02:32 PM
On the postgame, Kruk just rolled out to bed to say that the Sox arent for real because they dont have "that bopper in the middle of the lineup." This just after Paulie went 2-4 with 2B and a HR, not to mention a nice pick to end the game.


Yeah, when asked why the White Sox aren't the favorite in the AL, Kruk said (and I have the words almost exact),

"Well, they just aren't a very good team..." He followed that with a "but,..." and went on to praise our pitching and defense, then made his remark about the lack of a big bopper. Sounds like he should just make up his mind.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 02:32 PM
Game was on ESPN? Must have been blacked out here, of course I watched w/ Hawk and DJ anyhow.

Nice win.

Yes, Chicago's feed was blacked out. I watched on Comcast with the audio turned down and Rooney turned up. I've had my fill of Carmine stories from Hawk for one season.

Chips
09-05-2005, 02:34 PM
McCarthy is a stud. Glad we didn't trade him.

NSSoxFan
09-05-2005, 02:34 PM
Yes, Chicago's feed was blacked out. I watched on Comcast with the audio turned down and Rooney turned up. I've had my fill of Carmine stories from Hawk for one season.

But, you missed the one about him and Yaz...oh, wait a minute...

TaylorStSox
09-05-2005, 02:34 PM
Yes, Chicago's feed was blacked out. I watched on Comcast with the audio turned down and Rooney turned up. I've had my fill of Carmine stories from Hawk for one season.


I think I've had my fill of Hawk stories for a lifetime.

Corlose 15
09-05-2005, 02:34 PM
Ok guys I'm officially excited. This team has turned it up so far in september against two good offensive teams. They're hitting their stride again at the right time.

McCarthy was outstanding today, I was at the 4th of July game against the D-rays and fixing his arm angle has made a night and day difference. I'm drooling at the the possiblities for him being in this rotation for a long time.

5 straight excellent starts, keep it going all the way through October boys!!!

:gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

fquaye149
09-05-2005, 02:35 PM
He posts a lot of interesting stuff and never rubs anything in our faces. Maybe I'm wrong though...he's always been respectful as far as I'm concerned.

He's usually all right - I just get a little sick of his AL East centric world view.

Like when we beat the Yankees at NY and he said "now you know what playoff baseball's like."

I might have taken it the wrong way...but I get a little sick and tired of his Boston this and Boston that crap. If I wanted that, I wouldn't go to WSI, I'd turn on ESPN.

Having said that, it's clearly not my decision whether he's a troll or not as I don't run this board. Just my .02 worth

Soxfanspcu11
09-05-2005, 02:35 PM
Dont have Jenks pitch against Boston in the playoffs???


Did you see what he did to Manny on 3 pitches, and that crazy curveball that froze Varitek????

I agree that he seems to struggle a little bit but lets keep in mind all 3 of his runs he gave up in the ninth were unearned. Anyway I think its like Hawk said, you probably shouldnt throw a curveball right down the plate after just throwing 2 sliders like he did to Graffanino, it just gives the hitter time to catch up to offspeed, his best combo is sizzling 100 mph fastball then curve or slider. He should NEVER go 3 offspeed in a row, at least not to Graf.

I dont want to sound like Im negative, Im quite happy, but this is a place for discussion isint it? Besides, I think we have the right as Sox fans to question certain things

THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

SoxSpeed22
09-05-2005, 02:35 PM
Excellent win and job by BMac! It wasn't Jenks' fault those runs scored, the game shoulda been over before that. Konerko provides the power and Uribe's gettin' hot.
5-0 in September! Let's get it!:bandance::supernana:(165)

veeter
09-05-2005, 02:36 PM
God it's great to beat that jag Schilling. Jenks needs to stick with the heat and only surprise with the curve. Overall a terrific game. Actually Kruk's comments make me feel like just like in the first part of the year. The Sox are winning, playing smart ball and espn says they suck. Status Quo, all is well.

VivaOzzie
09-05-2005, 02:37 PM
I think that sometimes we throw around the term :dtroll: a little often. A little controversy is good, lets just let the mods decide who crosses the line. Just my $0.02.

Soxfanspcu11
09-05-2005, 02:42 PM
Just a quick question, if Ortiz is such an amazing hitter then how come he cant wait back and go opposite field when the shift is on??? I know he bunted for a hit in Anaheim but why not just serve some shots out into left??? Play to the conditions, if the opposing team has nine guys to the right of second, be LATE on the ball!?!?!? I dont get it!!! Be like pods and just slap that ball out there to the opposite field, GREAT hitters SHOULD be able to do that. Oh well, the Sox alignment to him seems to work so thats good.


THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 02:44 PM
Just a quick question, if Ortiz is such an amazing hitter then how come he cant wait back and go opposite field when the shift is on??? I know he bunted for a hit in Anaheim but why not just serve some shots out into left??? Play to the conditions, if the opposing team has nine guys to the right of second, be LATE on the ball!?!?!? I dont get it!!! Be like pods and just slap that ball out there to the opposite field, GREAT hitters SHOULD be able to do that. Oh well, the Sox alignment to him seems to work so thats good.


THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

Go take a look at his numbers. The man rakes.

Good win. Funny how the Dark Clouds have evaporated lately.

TaylorStSox
09-05-2005, 02:44 PM
Just a quick question, if Ortiz is such an amazing hitter then how come he cant wait back and go opposite field when the shift is on??? I know he bunted for a hit in Anaheim but why not just serve some shots out into left??? Play to the conditions, if the opposing team has nine guys to the right of second, be LATE on the ball!?!?!? I dont get it!!! Be like pods and just slap that ball out there to the opposite field, GREAT hitters SHOULD be able to do that. Oh well, the Sox alignment to him seems to work so thats good.


THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

A ton of "great" hitters have been dead pull hitters.

michned
09-05-2005, 02:46 PM
He's usually all right - I just get a little sick of his AL East centric world view.

It's a point well taken but an easterner will tend to have that view while most of us will have a middle-America view. But I think he adds a lot to the community.
Kind of like having our own Cliff Claven (and I mean that as a compliment! :D: ).

Foulke You
09-05-2005, 02:46 PM
A ton of "great" hitters have been dead pull hitters.
Yep, that Jim Thome guy made a career out of being a dead pull hitter. Troy Glaus is another one.

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 02:46 PM
Schilling's ERA: RISING
McCarthy is the real deal; that was amazing to watch.

Soxfanspcu11
09-05-2005, 02:49 PM
I know he is a pull hitter but so does that mean he is incappable of waiting back and going the other way??? Shouldnt he be able to make the adjustment, it would be a guranteed hit everytime if he did with the pull defense


THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 02:52 PM
I know he is a pull hitter but so does that mean he is incappable of waiting back and going the other way??? Shouldnt he be able to make the adjustment, it would be a guranteed hit everytime if he did with the pull defense


THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

His current approach has him hitting .293 with 37 home runs and 119 RBI. Throw in an OBP of .390 and I am thinking his approach is just fine.

MRKARNO
09-05-2005, 02:52 PM
Schilling's ERA: RISING


Actually, I think he lowered it with that outing. That was by far his best result since returning to the rotation and that's only because we blew two good chances to get the runner on third home with less than two outs

doublem23
09-05-2005, 02:53 PM
I know he is a pull hitter but so does that mean he is incappable of waiting back and going the other way??? Shouldnt he be able to make the adjustment, it would be a guranteed hit everytime if he did with the pull defense


THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

Are you seriously railing on a guy who's hitting .294/37/119?

Never played much baseball before, have you? :rolleyes:

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 03:00 PM
Are you seriously railing on a guy who's hitting .294/37/119?

Never played much baseball before, have you? :rolleyes:I seem to recall they had another OF there a few years back that was a dead pull hitter and was famous for refusing to hit the other way when the shift was on. He did okay.

DaleJRFan
09-05-2005, 03:01 PM
Wow. you're freaking out in multiple threads. :o:

The issue isn't Jenks versus the BoSox. The issue is Widger calling a curveball when Ozzie was yelling from the dugout after he called a curve that Millar almost took out of the park. The game should have been over after 3 hitters, but with Iguchi's error and a few bad pitches (whether or not they were poorly called pitches) they made it interesting. I'd wager Ozzie is still yelling at Widger for calling a breaking ball on the #8 hitter when Jenks throws 100mph.

Soxfanspcu11
09-05-2005, 03:02 PM
I've played baseball my entire life!!!


Have you ever played baseball? Better yet, have you ever tried to THINK???

Im not saying he sucks or anything, Im asking a question that so far no one has been able to answer!!!

YES, David ortiz is good, YES he pulls ball very well, YES he is clutch, YES he would look good in sox uniform.

None of this has to do with my original question that still is not answered when you bring up his stats.







THIS.IS.HOW.WE.DO.

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 03:05 PM
I've played baseball my entire life!!!


Have you ever played baseball? Better yet, have you ever tried to THINK???

Im not saying he sucks or anything, Im asking a question that so far no one has been able to answer!!!

YES, David ortiz is good, YES he pulls ball very well, YES he is clutch, YES he would look good in sox uniform.

None of this has to do with my original question that still is not answered when you bring up his stats.



We have answered your question. His current approach has him putting up monster numbers. Changing that approach doesn't make sense. He is a dominating hitter...so why would you take the chance that by going away from your natural ability as a pull hitter you'd become a better hitter? Do pitchers with a dominating fastball and a plus curve routinely throw mediocre change-ups? Not so much.

And I'd refrain from personally insulting people by asking if they THINK. It may get you a vacation.

cbone
09-05-2005, 03:06 PM
Was Uribe's jack as far they made it sound? I didn't get to see it. Great win. This train is a rollin....

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 03:08 PM
Was Uribe's jack as far they made it sound? I didn't get to see it. Great win. This train is a rollin....Off the light pole on top of the monster.

Chrisaway
09-05-2005, 03:13 PM
Indians won. So the official magic number today is 17.

I love that fact that we went from having only 4 decent starters last year to 6 this year. Way to go Bmac!!!!:supernana:

Soxfanspcu11
09-05-2005, 03:13 PM
Im not insulting anyone, I asked if they THINK because they were giving me stats and not addressing the question. Yes taking away from your natural swing may result in the ball not going 500 feet, but todays game was a perfect example, ortiz should have had a line drive basehit to right field but iguchi was right there, he would of have a better chance of getting a hit if he just bunted like he did in Anaheim. Thome was a pull hitter but I can distinctly remember him going the opposite way when they overshifted. Seems to me right field is not the place to go when everyone is standing there, play the averages and win. But whatever, I guess its better to hit line drive outs and pull the ball then dare wait back and go opposite field.

schmitty9800
09-05-2005, 03:15 PM
I've played baseball my entire life!!!


Have you ever played baseball? Better yet, have you ever tried to THINK???

Im not saying he sucks or anything, Im asking a question that so far no one has been able to answer!!!

YES, David ortiz is good, YES he pulls ball very well, YES he is clutch, YES he would look good in sox uniform.

None of this has to do with my original question that still is not answered when you bring up his stats.He's a great hitter that doesn't hit to left very well. That's the bottom line. While he might bat 10-20 points higher going opposite field, that might come with 10 less homers.

You can be a great hitter without hitting to all fields.

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 03:16 PM
Im not insulting anyone, I asked if they THINK because they were giving me stats and not addressing the question. Yes taking away from your natural swing may result in the ball not going 500 feet, but todays game was a perfect example, ortiz should have had a line drive basehit to right field but iguchi was right there, he would of have a better chance of getting a hit if he just bunted like he did in Anaheim. Thome was a pull hitter but I can distinctly remember him going the opposite way when they overshifted. Seems to me right field is not the place to go when everyone is standing there, play the averages and win. But whatever, I guess its better to hit line drive outs and pull the ball then dare wait back and go opposite field.

It is an insult.

And I'd venture to guess most baseball people would be plenty happy with .293/37/119 out of the middle of their line-up. Now maybe if he were a contact, slap hitter he would be looking to go to other way. But I don't think I'd be sacrificing 37 home runs and 119 RBI for an extra basehit or two here and there, but that's just me.

UofCSoxFan
09-05-2005, 03:17 PM
Haha! Thats funny right there.

If we meet the Red Sox in the post season, I'm glad this is the game they'll remember playing most recently against us. But a memo to Ozzie: Jenks does NOT pitch against the Red Sox in the ALCS.

17!

he gave up 3 UNEARNED RUNS....calm down

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 03:19 PM
he gave up 3 UNEARNED RUNS....calm downActually, Jenks' pitching wasn't the problem. Widger's pitch selection was. And I'm pretty sure he got an earful from Ozzie. He looked pretty steamed in the dugout.

UofCSoxFan
09-05-2005, 03:26 PM
I mean Jenks hung the pitch...so you can blame him for the home run....but a) the game shoudl have been over at that point and b) he shouldn't have thrown a curve for a strike there.

with regards to the whole ortiz thing....gimme a break....the whole point of the shift is to try to get ortiz to change his swing to go to left so he screws himself up.

and if I recall correctly he hit a game winning oppo bomb off us last series.

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 03:31 PM
I mean Jenks hung the pitch...so you can blame him for the home run....but a) the game shoudl have been over at that point and b) he shouldn't have thrown a curve for a strike there.

with regards to the whole ortiz thing....gimme a break....the whole point of the shift is to try to get ortiz to change his swing to go to left so he screws himself up.

and if I recall correctly he hit a game winning oppo bomb off us last series.I don't think the pitch Graffanino hit was a curve but a slider. When you throw 100 mph, you don't throw your third best pitch to Tony Graffanino. You blow him away.

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 03:34 PM
I don't think the pitch Graffanino hit was a curve but a slider. When you throw 100 mph, you don't throw your third best pitch to Tony Graffanino. You blow him away.

Exactly. And to come full circle in this thread, when you're a power hitting lefty who pulls the ball, you do not go away from your strengths b/c the other team wants you to.

The most important thing about Jenks today, for me, was his K of Manny. It'll be a HUGE boost to this team if he can come in during the playoffs in a big situation and get out the opposing team's best hitter.

VivaOzzie
09-05-2005, 03:38 PM
Was Uribe's jack as far they made it sound? I didn't get to see it.

It wasnt really how far he hit it, but how hard he ripped it. And then how hard he ran after he hit it. Uribe has been playin some ball. And I dont think he got picked off 2nd, I think Renteria missed the swipe.

Lip Man 1
09-05-2005, 03:38 PM
Since adding that changup McCarthy looks like a totally different pitcher. The next step in his education will come when hitters start adjusting to it and he has to make a second adjustment to them. It's a big chess game.

Lip

Chisox003
09-05-2005, 03:38 PM
Wow, what a game....

Jenks is still filthy, plain and simple.....Little mistake to Tony G, of all guys, but it shouldnt have gotten to that point anyway....Fa'get about it

B Mac....Yikes....Unreal

And I couldt be happier to say that Uribe is back.....The man is on fire, and if he continues to turn the lineup over back to the top, our offense will reap the benefits

I like this whole playing in September/getting out of August idea :gulp:

slavko
09-05-2005, 03:39 PM
I don't think the pitch Graffanino hit was a curve but a slider. When you throw 100 mph, you don't throw your third best pitch to Tony Graffanino. You blow him away.
TV guys called it a hanging curve. BMac impressed. I've never watched him closely before and he seems to have a chicken-wingy throwing motion. Has he ever been hurt before as a result of it?

VivaOzzie
09-05-2005, 03:40 PM
I like this whole playing in September/getting out of August idea :gulp:

Second that! :gulp:

mccoydp
09-05-2005, 03:46 PM
Im not insulting anyone, I asked if they THINK because they were giving me stats and not addressing the question. Yes taking away from your natural swing may result in the ball not going 500 feet, but todays game was a perfect example, ortiz should have had a line drive basehit to right field but iguchi was right there, he would of have a better chance of getting a hit if he just bunted like he did in Anaheim. Thome was a pull hitter but I can distinctly remember him going the opposite way when they overshifted. Seems to me right field is not the place to go when everyone is standing there, play the averages and win. But whatever, I guess its better to hit line drive outs and pull the ball then dare wait back and go opposite field.

Apostrophes work great; "Im" + " ' " = "I'm".

MarySwiss
09-05-2005, 03:51 PM
He's usually all right - I just get a little sick of his AL East centric world view.
Like when we beat the Yankees at NY and he said "now you know what playoff baseball's like."
I might have taken it the wrong way...but I get a little sick and tired of his Boston this and Boston that crap. If I wanted that, I wouldn't go to WSI, I'd turn on ESPN.
Having said that, it's clearly not my decision whether he's a troll or not as I don't run this board. Just my .02 worth

Thing is, Fquaye149 (BTW did you choose this handle on purpose just so those of us who have hoisted a few will have trouble typing it?), this is not unique to Fenway. I belong to a trade association and chat group that is NYC-based and you wouldn't believe the number of times I have to bite my keyboard to keep from teeing someone up over some smug, we-are-the-world comment. I think many East Coasters really believe the sun rises AND SETS there.

And I also found the comment about playoff baseball a little bit patronizing.

SOXSINCE'70
09-05-2005, 04:00 PM
Looks like the Red Sox fans have come up with a new annoying chant... YOOOUUUUUU.
:winner

I hope you realise that chant is for Sawx third baseman
Kevin Youklis (SP??).But yes,it can be annoying.

gogosox35
09-05-2005, 04:05 PM
And I couldt be happier to say that Uribe is back.....The man is on fire, and if he continues to turn the lineup over back to the top, our offense will reap the benefits



Exactly. I think that with AJ and Juan getting hot not only does it turn the order over quicker, but it takes some pressure off the top/middle of the order.

chisoxmike
09-05-2005, 04:06 PM
I hope you realise that chant is for Sawx third baseman
Kevin Youklis (SP??).But yes,it can be annoying.

Right, was I not clear about it?

SOXSINCE'70
09-05-2005, 04:14 PM
Right, was I not clear about it?

No,just an FYI.

chisoxfanatic
09-05-2005, 04:18 PM
Him and his pal RSN33 are too busy chatting about how this was the most important game of the year in the MLB.

:bandance: :gulp: :bandance:

17. The celebration is coming...

Hey, leave them alone. Neither of them have trolled here.

Anyways, great game by McCarthy (even tho I didn't get to see the first three innings, because I overslept...just in time to watch the offense get started). I honestly wouldn't mind seeing him in the bullpen in the playoffs if he can show more of this the rest of this month.

I'm shocked that Timo had the game he did; but, it still seems like he has stocks in Pepto Bismo or something with his fielding techniques...makes routine plays look like highligh-reel plays...eeesh!

Like I said yesterday, Tom Skillings has said that no clouds are in sight. Let's go on and pound KC and decrease this magic number even more!

gobears1987
09-05-2005, 04:20 PM
Indians won. So the official magic number today is 17.

I love that fact that we went from having only 4 decent starters last year to 6 this year. Way to go Bmac!!!!:supernana: We really had 3 since Garland and Contreras were only good half the time. This year, both pitchers have come through, el Duque is dealing when healthy, and BMac has found success in the Bigs. Freddy and Mark are just having a typical year for them (which means a great year).

gf2020
09-05-2005, 04:23 PM
On the postgame, Kruk just rolled out to bed to say that the Sox arent for real because they dont have "that bopper in the middle of the lineup."

Well, don't forget how those 2003 Florida Marlins had that big bopper Mike Lowell (32 HRs) in the middle of the lineup or how the 2002 Angels had that stomper Troy Glaus (30 HRs).

How many homeruns does Paulie have again? 10? 15?

chisoxfanatic
09-05-2005, 04:24 PM
How many homeruns does Paulie have again?

34. Only A-Rod, Papi, and Tiexiera have more, IIRC.

MarySwiss
09-05-2005, 04:31 PM
Question for those who got the ESPN feed. Was I hearing things, or did Sutcliffe and that other guy actually talk like we are--dare I say it?--CONTENDERS? Is it possible that we are finally being taken--gasp!--seriously?

I have never been a big Sutcliffe fan, but based on what I saw today, I'll take those guys over the giggle boys--Thorne, Stone, and that other Steve--any day of the week.

fquaye149
09-05-2005, 04:36 PM
Thing is, Fquaye149 (BTW did you choose this handle on purpose just so those of us who have hoisted a few will have trouble typing it?), this is not unique to Fenway. I belong to a trade association and chat group that is NYC-based and you wouldn't believe the number of times I have to bite my keyboard to keep from teeing someone up over some smug, we-are-the-world comment. I think many East Coasters really believe the sun rises AND SETS there.

And I also found the comment about playoff baseball a little bit patronizing.

Oh I don't blame him for being biased to his team and his coast. Frankly, I'm kind of bored by baseball and football outside the midwest. However, I do blame him for coming here and yakking about very little else but

a.) how he has just noticed how the Cubs and their fans are annoying
b.) what's going on in the world of AL East baseball
c.) what's going on in the wacky world of current events.

that's all.

tebman
09-05-2005, 04:37 PM
Question for those who got the ESPN feed. Was I hearing things, or did Sutcliffe and that other guy actually talk like we are--dare I say it?--CONTENDERS? Is it possible that we are finally being taken--gasp!--seriously?

I have never been a big Sutcliffe fan, but based on what I saw today, I'll take those guys over the giggle boys--Thorne, Stone, and that other Steve--any day of the week.
Fortunately I saw the Hawk/DJ feed, so I missed ESPN. But I've got to agree with you that the other ESPN "giggle boys" are annoying. They talk too much and they come at it with a phony edge in their voices. I'm worried that WSCR is going to look for one of those types to work with Farmer next year. :o:

But as for the game, let's keep this train a-rollin', boys! :bandance:

TheOldRoman
09-05-2005, 04:50 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing Harris as a defensive replacement in the late innings.
:rolleyes:
I would. Iguchi is much much better than Willie defensively. Iguchi has been great for us in the field all season. He is a gold glover. He may not have great range on pop ups down the right field line, but he is much much better than Willie in every other aspect of 2B.
Iguchi has had a rough couple of weeks in the field, but he is still great. Unless you think that these last few weeks have been the real Tadahito and the rest of the season was a fluke. Kinda like the White Sox. I haven't been paying attention. The season went into the toilet when we lost 7 straight, right?

A. Cavatica
09-05-2005, 04:50 PM
I was at the game today. An absolutely beautiful day to be at the park, made even more beautiful by the W and the opportunity to taunt some Red Sox-loving family members. Unfortunately, since I was seated in the far right field grandstand, everyone who saw the game on TV probably had a better view of the action. Mostly I got a good view of Timo looking tentative on -- but eventually catching -- flyouts.

I will say this. McCarthy was lights-out. Once the Sox pushed the first run across, I knew this one was over. Lots of called third strikes on the Bosox. They never had a serious threat going, the crowd was never in it, and the bullpen did its job. Marte, especially, striking out Ortiz.

McCarthy's last two starts are better than any of Orlando Hernandez's starts.

I had so much confidence in the 5-0 lead (with Jenks, Cotts, Hermy still available) that I left in the top of the ninth to beat the traffic. Sounds like the 3 in the bottom of the ninth were a bit fluke-ish; was anyone really concerned?

Pickoffs and Renteria's diving catch in the third (?) were the only things that kept the Red Sox close. But the Sox defense looked pretty good too: the overshift on Ortiz worked perfectly, and the outfielders covered a lot of ground.

Summing up, this was an impressive win on the road against the World Champions. The August swoon is ancient history now. The Sox pitching and defense are good enough to win it all. We're Curt Schilling's daddy, and Brandon McCarthy needs to replace El Duque in the rotation immediately.

harwar
09-05-2005, 04:54 PM
We have the best pitching staff,the best defense,and the most cunning manager.
If there is ANYONE in all of baseball that i'm worried about playing,i sure can't think of who that would be.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-05-2005, 04:55 PM
I had so much confidence in the 5-0 lead (with Jenks, Cotts, Hermy still available) that I left in the top of the ninth to beat the traffic.

So now we know who to blame for that late rally. :wink:

mr_genius
09-05-2005, 05:10 PM
But i thought the sox forfeited this game? I read that in the Tribune so it must be true

MarySwiss
09-05-2005, 05:13 PM
I had so much confidence in the 5-0 lead (with Jenks, Cotts, Hermy still available) that I left in the top of the ninth to beat the traffic. Sounds like the 3 in the bottom of the ninth were a bit fluke-ish; was anyone really concerned?

Actually I wasn't the least bit concerned--which really surprised me! But this team just seems to have it all clicking along. And for some reason, I have suddenly come to terms with the idea that we really ARE this good!

I know, only time will tell. But after the Wrong Sox scored the three runs, I just sat there camly watching, whereas I usually would be running around smashing dishes, foaming at the mouth, and screaming.

I just felt--confident. :rolleyes:

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 05:14 PM
Actually I wasn't the least bit concerned--which really surprised me! But this team just seems to have it all clicking along. And for some reason, I have suddenly come to terms with the idea that we really ARE this good!

I know, only time will tell. But after the Wrong Sox scored the three runs, I just sat there camly watching, whereas I usually would be running around smashing dishes, foaming at the mouth, and screaming.

I just felt--confident. :rolleyes:

I'd watch that foaming at the mouth. I hear it can be killer.

:smile:

Chisox003
09-05-2005, 05:18 PM
34. Only A-Rod, Papi, and Tiexiera have more, IIRC.

You know what I haven't seen in a while? A "Konerko must go" or "We better trade for Overbay this offseason" thread

Konerko has been amazing, and the fact that only those 3 guys are ahead of him for the AL HR lead is proof

And on top of that, he's hitting .324 post all star break.....Check out my signature, this guy just hasnt stopped (And is currently owner of a 10 game hit streak)

PK haters/Dark clouds have been silenced....And I gotta say, WSI is much more enjoyable without them

Taliesinrk
09-05-2005, 05:28 PM
McCarthy STUNNED the Red Sox nation. Looks like the Red Sox fans have come up with a new annoying chant... YOOOUUUUUU. Worse than the Leeeewww for the Twins.

:winner


Would it be possible to refrain from using the term "Red Sox Nation"? Please, do not get me started on why...

SouthSide_HitMen
09-05-2005, 05:29 PM
You know what I haven't seen in a while? A "Konerko must go" or "We better trade for Overbay this offseason" thread

Konerko has been amazing, and the fact that only those 3 guys are ahead of him for the AL HR lead is proof

And on top of that, he's hitting .324 post all star break.....Check out my signature, this guy just hasnt stopped (And is currently owner of a 10 game hit streak)

PK haters/Dark clouds have been silenced....And I gotta say, WSI is much more enjoyable without them

I'd like to see Konerko resigned as long as it fits within the budget of the team. The White Sox cannot afford to give him $12 million for several season and keep the core of their team intact. If they can offer him a raise which he is ok with that would be great. If he wants full market value I believe he will not be on the South Side next season (not that I would blame him if he left like others have done with Mags and others). I hope he stays - he will be a productive player for the next few seasons.

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 06:16 PM
The Indians won today, too. They're red hot on a one game winning streak. I don't know if the Sox can hold them off any longer.

:darkclouds:

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 06:19 PM
I'd like to see Konerko resigned as long as it fits within the budget of the team. The White Sox cannot afford to give him $12 million for several season and keep the core of their team intact. If they can offer him a raise which he is ok with that would be great. If he wants full market value I believe he will not be on the South Side next season (not that I would blame him if he left like others have done with Mags and others). I hope he stays - he will be a productive player for the next few seasons.

If he goes, I will have to start HATING him! (He will be on the Red Sox next year...:angry:)

Brian26
09-05-2005, 06:20 PM
:tomatoaward


That took awhile :D:

VivaOzzie
09-05-2005, 06:32 PM
And on top of that, he's hitting .324 post all star break.....Check out my signature, this guy just hasnt stopped (And is currently owner of a 10 game hit streak)



Didn't even notice that. Gotta like that trend, lets hope Paulie keeps it up! :gulp:

TaylorStSox
09-05-2005, 06:45 PM
:rolleyes:
I would. Iguchi is much much better than Willie defensively. Iguchi has been great for us in the field all season. He is a gold glover. He may not have great range on pop ups down the right field line, but he is much much better than Willie in every other aspect of 2B.
Iguchi has had a rough couple of weeks in the field, but he is still great. Unless you think that these last few weeks have been the real Tadahito and the rest of the season was a fluke. Kinda like the White Sox. I haven't been paying attention. The season went into the toilet when we lost 7 straight, right?


Sorry, but you're just completely and utterly wrong. Iguchi's a decent 2nd baseman, but he has no range up the middle, doesn't have much of an arm and doesn't go back well. Harris hasn't hit, but he's been nothing short of fantastic defensively. He's more athletic, has more range and turns the double play better. It's obvious. Uribe doesn't even give Tadahito a chance to turn alot of double plays.

I'm not ripping on Iguchi. He's one of my favorite players on this team, but I'm being realistic.

TaylorStSox
09-05-2005, 06:47 PM
You know what I haven't seen in a while? A "Konerko must go" or "We better trade for Overbay this offseason" thread

Konerko has been amazing, and the fact that only those 3 guys are ahead of him for the AL HR lead is proof

And on top of that, he's hitting .324 post all star break.....Check out my signature, this guy just hasnt stopped (And is currently owner of a 10 game hit streak)

PK haters/Dark clouds have been silenced....And I gotta say, WSI is much more enjoyable without them


I think it's safe to say that the majority of the PK haters aren't dark coulds.

Daver
09-05-2005, 06:48 PM
I think it's safe to say that the majority of the PK haters aren't dark coulds.

I don't hate Paul.

I also don't think he is worth 9 mil a year.

fquaye149
09-05-2005, 06:53 PM
You know what I haven't seen in a while? A "Konerko must go" or "We better trade for Overbay this offseason" thread

Konerko has been amazing, and the fact that only those 3 guys are ahead of him for the AL HR lead is proof

And on top of that, he's hitting .324 post all star break.....Check out my signature, this guy just hasnt stopped (And is currently owner of a 10 game hit streak)

PK haters/Dark clouds have been silenced....And I gotta say, WSI is much more enjoyable without them

Sure. That's because

a.) Paulie hasn't said anything stupid

b.) he has performed well at the plate.

When the "PK Haters" raised complaints neither a nor b were simultaneous occurences. I'm glad he's doing what he's doing but don't act like the people who complained about Paulie were doing it from some sort of grudge.

You tell us to look at your sig. All right - let's look at it, as well as the poor, poor numbers Paul was putting up in April and May. That's when the complaints came. Don't get me wrong, he's been great. That's precisely why, when coupled with a lack of stupid statements, you haven't heard from the "haters" in a while. Once again I'm ecstatic with his play this half, and I'd rather he play well and get resigned than play poorly and we get a better value like Overbay next season. That is: I want to win this season even if it means overpaying for Paul next year.

But to act like it hasn't been in Paul's hands whether the complaints were made? What-ever.
Good grief.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 06:55 PM
I don't hate Paul.

I also don't think he is worth 9 mil a year.

Yep. Maybe Konerko finally got the memo about his diarrhea mouth, too? He has been pretty quiet the last month or so.

:thumbsup:

JB98
09-05-2005, 06:58 PM
I don't hate Paul.

I also don't think he is worth 9 mil a year.

Who is?

fquaye149
09-05-2005, 07:01 PM
Who is?

Sweeney, Manny, Ortiz, Blalock, Vlad, Cabrera, Ensberg, Rolen, Pujols, Edmonds, Lee, Aramis Ramirez, C. Lee, Tejada, Lopez, Chipper and Andruw and many many many more.

Not Paulie, however.

Daver
09-05-2005, 07:03 PM
Who is?

Alex Rodriguez, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Mark Buerhle, Roger Clemens, and a score of others.

longshot7
09-05-2005, 07:04 PM
Yay! A great win. I still think, however, that we should have waited for the last possible second to call up Jenks (virtually NO ONE saw K-Rod in 2002 before the posteaseon.) Maybe he's still learning - but when you throw 100 mph, there shouldn't be much a learning curve. Rear back, throw it.

ah whatever - we won. 5 in a row.

sullythered
09-05-2005, 07:04 PM
As always the market will dictate what Paulie is worth. For me, I'll take his forty homers a year, with glee. Also, no worries about roids. I think that's worth nine mildo in this day and age.

sullythered
09-05-2005, 07:06 PM
Sweeney, Manny, Ortiz, Blalock, Vlad, Cabrera, Ensberg, Rolen, Pujols, Edmonds, Lee, Aramis Ramirez, C. Lee, Tejada, Lopez, Chipper and Andruw and many many many more.

Not Paulie, however.

I'd take Paulie's proven power over no effort Butt-ramis Ramirez any day.

fquaye149
09-05-2005, 07:08 PM
I'd take Paulie's proven power over no effort Butt-ramis Ramirez any day.

Except that Ramirez plays a position much harder to find good hitting at than Paulie.

PicktoCLick72
09-05-2005, 07:10 PM
Since when does Morgan Ensberg deswerve to be in that list. He has had one good season. And I believe Paulie's nubers besides average are the same as Ramierez. SO does the 25 points in average constitute putting him on that list. Even putting Sweeney on that list is questionable.

VivaOzzie
09-05-2005, 07:12 PM
Sorry, but you're just completely and utterly wrong. Iguchi's a decent 2nd baseman, but he has no range up the middle, doesn't have much of an arm and doesn't go back well. Harris hasn't hit, but he's been nothing short of fantastic defensively. He's more athletic, has more range and turns the double play better. It's obvious. Uribe doesn't even give Tadahito a chance to turn alot of double plays.

I'm not ripping on Iguchi. He's one of my favorite players on this team, but I'm being realistic.

I think Iguchi moves to his left better than most, but he has less-than-average range up the middle, probably because he figures he wouldn't be able to make the throw from behind 2nd anyway. And I also think he starts the double play better than almost anyone.

mr_genius
09-05-2005, 07:12 PM
Paulie is worth 9 mil a year

sullythered
09-05-2005, 07:12 PM
Except that Ramirez plays a position much harder to find good hitting at than Paulie.

True, Ramirez just seems like a guy that'll eventually let you down, to me. I also think he's gonna be really fat in a few years. I agree w/ most of the other guys you listed, but I think Paulie gets a tough rap. He says some silly things, but he's an athlete, not a scholar.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 07:19 PM
Here's a prediction. "Fat" Ramirez will still be playing this game (either as a 1B or DH) years after "Wheels" Konerko has been retired, given a walker, and found in a secluded corner of his nursing home dead from exposure.

:wink:

santo=dorf
09-05-2005, 07:20 PM
Sweeney, Manny, Ortiz, Blalock, Vlad, Cabrera, Ensberg, Rolen, Pujols, Edmonds, Lee, Aramis Ramirez, C. Lee, Tejada, Lopez, Chipper and Andruw and many many many more.

Not Paulie, however.

How many of those guys make $9 million? :?:

sullythered
09-05-2005, 07:23 PM
Here's a prediction. "Fat" Ramirez will still be playing this game (either as a 1B or DH) years after "Wheels" Konerko has been retired, given a walker, and found in a secluded corner of his nursing home dead from exposure.

:wink:

Ramirez won't play much later into his life than paulie does. Ramirez is good, not great, and he's kind of a jerk w/ a bad attitude. Plus he gets hurt more than Konerko does.

TaylorStSox
09-05-2005, 07:25 PM
Ramirez won't play much later into his life than paulie does. Ramirez is good, not great, and he's kind of a jerk w/ a bad attitude. Plus he gets hurt more than Konerko does.

He'll finish with the second best numbers a RH has ever had. If that's not great, then I don't know what is.

Daver
09-05-2005, 07:25 PM
How many of those guys make $9 million? :?:

The question was not who makes 9 mil, it was who is worth it.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 07:25 PM
Ramirez won't play much later into his life than paulie does. Ramirez is good, not great, and he's kind of a jerk w/ a bad attitude. Plus he gets hurt more than Konerko does.

Ramirez can run. Konerko can't.

Next.

sullythered
09-05-2005, 07:27 PM
Ramirez can run. Konerko can't.

Next.

Yes, and that's got nothing to do with how long they'll play in the league.

Next.

SOXSINCE'70
09-05-2005, 07:27 PM
The Indians won today, too. They're red hot on a one game winning streak. I don't know if the Sox can hold them off any longer.

:darkclouds:


Maybe,just maybe,the Sox can outlast 'em.:roflmao: :roflmao: The lead's only
9 1/2 games.I dunno.I'd rather it be 19 1/2 games.I'm getting scared.:D:

sullythered
09-05-2005, 07:28 PM
He'll finish with the second best numbers a RH has ever had. If that's not great, then I don't know what is.

I'm talking about Aramis, not Manny.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 07:28 PM
Yes, and that's got nothing to do with how long they'll play in the league.

Okay, now you're just talking crazy.

Why don't you name all the firstbasemen who were converted into leftfielders.

Here's the short answer. None.

Unregistered
09-05-2005, 07:31 PM
Excellent pitching today by The Machinist. :smile:

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2004_The_Machinist/2004_the_machinist_006.jpg
http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/MALP10709052033.jpg

fquaye149
09-05-2005, 07:32 PM
How many of those guys make $9 million? :?:

Just pointing out that even among position players alone there are many many players who are better than Paulie, some making much more than him, some making less...yes market will determine his value...but it's not like he's irreplaceable.

sullythered
09-05-2005, 07:34 PM
Okay, now you're just talking crazy.

Why don't you name all the firstbasemen who were converted into leftfielders.

Here's the short answer. None.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I just don't get why Paulie's inability to run is going to shorten his career. He can't run now, he couldn't ever run. He'll never be anything but a 1B, or DH. This is understood. But if Paulies lack of speed was gonna get him out of the league, it would have already. Plus, Aramis Ramirez is much more injury prone than Konerko is. I would say that has a great deal more to do with career length than foot speed. Ask Edgar Martinez.

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 07:36 PM
Just pointing out that even among position players alone there are many many players who are better than Paulie, some making much more than him, some making less...yes market will determine his value...but it's not like he's irreplaceable.

The problem is, he almost is irreplaceable next year, as the FA class is very low-quality. I'm not a huge fan of PK's, but he is a big bopper that's been huge for the Sox this year. I don't see anyone >= PK in the FA class, and if the Sox get (read: trade for) Overbay, he's at best a slight downgrade offensively.

Book it:
Paul Konerko will either be making 8.5-9.5 million in a White Sox uniform next year, or he will be making 9.6-12.0 million in a Boston Red Sox uniform next year

Daver
09-05-2005, 07:41 PM
The problem is, he almost is irreplaceable next year, as the FA class is very low-quality. I'm not a huge fan of PK's, but he is a big bopper that's been huge for the Sox this year. I don't see anyone >= PK in the FA class, and if the Sox get (read: trade for) Overbay, he's at best a slight downgrade offensively.

Book it:
Paul Konerko will either be making 8.5-9.5 million in a White Sox uniform next year, or he will be making 9.6-12.0 million in a Boston Red Sox uniform next year

His replacement could be playing in the AFL right now, his name is Casey Rogowski.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 07:43 PM
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I just don't get why Paulie's inability to run is going to shorten his career. He can't run now, he couldn't ever run. He'll never be anything but a 1B, or DH. This is understood. But if Paulies lack of speed was gonna get him out of the league, it would have already. Plus, Aramis Ramirez is much more injury prone than Konerko is. I would say that has a great deal more to do with career length than foot speed. Ask Edgar Martinez.

First base and DH is where great hitters go to end their career. If Ramirez can keep hitting, he'll extend his career at 1B or DH simply because his bat is good enough. Meanwhile he plays the outfield because his speed is too valuable to waste at those two positions.

Konerko OTOH has nowhere else to go. He is only going to get slower with age and he is very slow already. His SLG will slide for no other reason than his wheels won't carry him to second or third -- and his SLG compared to the best firstbasemen in the league has never been more than slightly above average.

I should also note that slow-footed firstbasemen come a dime a dozen because virtually any ballplayer can play the position if they still have enough in their bat to be considered for the position. That's what makes Konerko overvalued. Putting him there prevents the Sox from converting other ballplayers into Sox firstbasemen, including every aging outfield power hitter in the game. There are always plenty of those looking for a home. (See Griffey, Ken).

JB98
09-05-2005, 07:43 PM
Since when does Morgan Ensberg deswerve to be in that list. He has had one good season. And I believe Paulie's nubers besides average are the same as Ramierez. SO does the 25 points in average constitute putting him on that list. Even putting Sweeney on that list is questionable.

It's yet another case of WSI members underrating White Sox players and overrating players on other teams.

Konerko is hitting .278 with 34 HRs this year. Manny Ramirez is hitting .285 with 33 HRs. Ramirez makes twice the salary Konerko does. Draw your own conclusions.

IMO, no baseball player is worth $9 million a year.

Daver
09-05-2005, 07:44 PM
First base and DH is where great hitters go to end their career. If Ramirez can keep hitting, he'll extend his career at 1B or DH simply because his bat is good enough. Meanwhile he plays the outfield because his speed is too valuable to waste at those two positions.

Konerko OTOH has nowhere else to go. He is only going to get slower with age and he is very slow already. His SLG will slide for no other reason than his wheels won't carry him to second or third -- and his SLG compared to the best firstbasemen in the league has never been more than slightly above average.

I should also note that slow-footed firstbasemen come a dime a dozen because virtually any ballplayer can play the position if they still have enough in their bat to be considered for the position. That's what makes Konerko overvalued. Putting him there prevents the Sox from converting other ballplayers into Sox firstbasemen, including every aging outfield power hitter in the game. There are always plenty of those looking for a home. (See Griffey, Ken).

Julio Franco is still playing games for the Braves as a first baseman.

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 07:47 PM
His replacement could be playing in the AFL right now, his name is Casey Rogowski.

Ehh...if anything, Rogo will be ready for a september callup next year or a backup spot next year; I don't see him as the starting 1B of the team. He has far less power than PK and isn't exactly major league ready...he's kind of similar to a less mature Ross Gload I suppose. And he definitely won't fill up the power gap that PK would leave.

JB98
09-05-2005, 07:49 PM
Ehh...if anything, Rogo will be ready for a september callup next year or a backup spot next year; I don't see him as the starting 1B of the team. He has far less power than PK and isn't exactly major league ready...he's kind of similar to Ross Gload I suppose. And he definitely won't fill up the power gap that PK would leave.

If Konerko is not brought back, we need to look outside the organization for a replacement.

Gload: Not an everyday player
Rogowski: Not ready yet

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 07:51 PM
If Konerko is not brought back, we need to look outside the organization for a replacement.

Gload: Not an everyday player
Rogowski: Not ready yet

Right. And as I've said before, I don't think anyone in the free agent class can replace PK. I also think Overbay, if traded for, is a downgrade. The only guy I could see replacing PK would be Sean Casey in a trade, but he would leave a severe power void on this team that would need to be filled in other positions.

EDIT: If Philly would be willing to part with Ryan Howard, that would be pretty awesome. Thome's contract is too humongous + his injuries to unload him, so I could see Howard (young 1B with serious pop) get traded.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 07:52 PM
Julio Franco is still playing games for the Braves as a first baseman.

Letting DH Julio Franco walk was the single biggest mistake the Sox made to turn the best team in the league back in 1994 into a pathetic also-ran in 1995. Watching him bat clean up behind Frank Thomas was a thing of beauty. The Sox spent $50 million to finally replace Franco two years later signing Albert Belle and we all know how that one turned out.
:(:

Daver
09-05-2005, 07:55 PM
Ehh...if anything, Rogo will be ready for a september callup next year or a backup spot next year; I don't see him as the starting 1B of the team. He has far less power than PK and isn't exactly major league ready...he's kind of similar to a less mature Ross Gload I suppose. And he definitely won't fill up the power gap that PK would leave.

Casey lost two years to injuries, this is his first healthy season back, he does not posses PK's power, but he gives you a firstbaseman that can steal bases, and he plays the position very well. He also hits for a better average than Paul, and can situational hit much better.

The days of the lumbering ox playing first and being content with a HR twice a week are going to disappear, as power numbers continue to go down across the board, speed and OBP will replace it.

ChiSoxGirl
09-05-2005, 07:56 PM
McCarthy was nothing shy of dominating for his second straight start! He had command of hit pitches and was purely amazing. Equally as important, he had minimal walks, just like his five other starting pitcher teammates as of late. Keeping the walks to a minimum and/or non-existent is going to be key down the stretch and into October.

The offense didn't slumber for the fifth straight day; coincidentally, none of which have been in the month of August. That 7 game losing streak and 12-16 record for the month is outta sight and outta mind!

Let's come back home and take care of KC the way we know we can and have! :bandance:

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 07:58 PM
Casey lost two years to injuries, this is his first healthy season back, he does not posses PK's power, but he gives you a firstbaseman that can steal bases, and he plays the position very well. He also hits for a better average than Paul, and can situational hit much better.

Yep, he'd be a viable option as I stated in post #141. Ryan Howard, I believe, could be an ideal pickup; a young, powerful first baseman with all-star potential. Casey can hit .320 and steal a few bases-which is great and which is why he'd be a great pickup-but having 0 quality RBI men on your team is not something I want to see (well, maybe 1 RBI guy (Dye), but still)

JB98
09-05-2005, 08:00 PM
Right. And as I've said before, I don't think anyone in the free agent class can replace PK. I also think Overbay, if traded for, is a downgrade. The only guy I could see replacing PK would be Sean Casey in a trade, but he would leave a severe power void on this team that would need to be filled in other positions.

Sean Casey, now there's a guy who isn't worth the salary he's making. Like Konerko, Casey can't run. And he doesn't give you anywhere near the power Paulie does. It doesn't matter how slow you are when you knock the damn ball over the wall.

I'd rather keep Konerko than trade for Overbay too. <JB ducks and runs for cover>

Although, Overbay is not a bad fallback option if the Sox and Konerko can't agree on a new contract.

Daver
09-05-2005, 08:01 PM
Yep, he'd be a viable option as I stated in post #141. Ryan Howard, I believe, could be an ideal pickup; a young, powerful first baseman with all-star potential. Casey can hit .320 and steal a few bases-which is great and which is why he'd be a great pickup-but having 0 quality RBI men on your team is not something I want to see (well, maybe 1 RBI guy (Dye), but still)

If you build a team based on guys that can hit, and get on base, from top to bottom, you find your RBI guys are already in your lineup.

JB98
09-05-2005, 08:04 PM
Yep, he'd be a viable option as I stated in post #141. Ryan Howard, I believe, could be an ideal pickup; a young, powerful first baseman with all-star potential. Casey can hit .320 and steal a few bases-which is great and which is why he'd be a great pickup-but having 0 quality RBI men on your team is not something I want to see (well, maybe 1 RBI guy (Dye), but still)

Which Casey are you talking about Sean Casey or Casey Rogowski?

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 08:08 PM
Which Casey are you talking about Sean Casey or Casey Rogowski?

Sean Casey. He actually has 2 SB, so I was a bit wrong about his SB potential :(:...but .320/.385 ain't too shabby.

JB98
09-05-2005, 08:14 PM
Sean Casey. He actually has 2 SB, so I was a bit wrong about his SB potential :(:...but .320/.385 ain't too shabby.

Yeah, Sean Casey has about 15 career steals in over 1,000 career games played. Most were probably on the donkey end of a double steal. His wheels are well below average. He will hit you .320, but his power production is nothing special for a 1B. And he plays in a notorious hitters' park too. I wouldn't be excited about him, but I'd take him ahead of Ross Gload.

Frater Perdurabo
09-05-2005, 08:41 PM
Great win today. The Sox are primed for another eight-game streak considering the Royals are on tap.
:bandance:

As long as this has been "hijacked" into a Paulie debate thread...

Paulie's 2nd half surge is just what the Sox needed. He carried the offense through August and probably (combined with some typically good pitching efforts, of course) kept the month's record from falling below 12-16.

Considering his numbers since the All-Star break and what will be available on the free agent market this November, he's probably played himself out of the Sox price range. If the Sox advance to the World Series, his exposure and therefore his price only will increase.

Boston and both New York teams are potential suitors. They will drive the asking price far above what the Sox should pay for him. If those three teams get into a bidding war, he could get $14-$15 million/year for 4-5 years. There's no reason the Sox should allocate $10 milliion (much less $14 million) of their payroll for a slow-footed, home run-hitting first-baseman who's never produced an OPS higher than .894. Doing so only would prevent them from signing Garland to a long-term deal and would prevent them from locking up Buehrle or Garcia down the road.

The only way PK stays with the Sox is if he gives them a deep hometown discount.

Not re-signing Paulie is not the end of the world. Daver and George mentioned two opening day 2006 possibilities: Rogowski or converting an outfielder into a first baseman. If Rogowski fails and next June the Sox find the offense needs a hot beef injection, they can always make a midseason deal for a LH thumper. Or, this offseason they could convert Dye into a 1B (given his height, athleticism and reported willingness to play the position) to make room in the outfield for Brian Anderson. Long term, if we can trust Daver and Randar (and I do), Ryan Sweeney may be the answer.

Chisox003
09-05-2005, 08:42 PM
Sure. That's because

a.) Paulie hasn't said anything stupid

b.) he has performed well at the plate.

When the "PK Haters" raised complaints neither a nor b were simultaneous occurences. I'm glad he's doing what he's doing but don't act like the people who complained about Paulie were doing it from some sort of grudge.

You tell us to look at your sig. All right - let's look at it, as well as the poor, poor numbers Paul was putting up in April and May. That's when the complaints came. Don't get me wrong, he's been great. That's precisely why, when coupled with a lack of stupid statements, you haven't heard from the "haters" in a while. Once again I'm ecstatic with his play this half, and I'd rather he play well and get resigned than play poorly and we get a better value like Overbay next season. That is: I want to win this season even if it means overpaying for Paul next year.

But to act like it hasn't been in Paul's hands whether the complaints were made? What-ever.
Good grief.

Ok, I see where you're coming from....

But, the thing that I found ridiculous was when he was struggling, comments such as....

oh GOD. Just when I'd forgotten about this stupid mother****er's bull**** comment about Uribe.

Paulie: Go away. You can take your ****ing 17 homeruns and 11 game hitting streak. I'm sick of your ****.

It seems like the non "FOGIDPK" (As people who, gasp, supported Konerko came to be known) just wait for Konerko to either make a mistake on the field, or say something that raises controversy

The minute that happens.....Boom! 400 post thread full of arguments which you were VERY much involved in

But now that he's hitting .280 and is THE main power threat in our lineup, would you repeat your comment above if he said something that "threatened team chemistry"?

Doubt it

As for resigning Konerko, he's not worth $10 million, not many players are....And if the Sox have to contend with Boston or the Yankees to get Paulie back, then forget about it ....

voodoochile
09-05-2005, 08:48 PM
:winner

:supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :supernana: :bandance:

I thought they were supposed to tank this game...:wink:

mjharrison72
09-05-2005, 08:57 PM
I'm loving watching B-Mac maturing before our eyes. And some great and timely hitting today... but my favorite was Iguchi's squeeze... perfectly executed. Seventeen ... Yes!

CHISOXFAN13
09-05-2005, 08:58 PM
Question for those who got the ESPN feed. Was I hearing things, or did Sutcliffe and that other guy actually talk like we are--dare I say it?--CONTENDERS? Is it possible that we are finally being taken--gasp!--seriously?

I have never been a big Sutcliffe fan, but based on what I saw today, I'll take those guys over the giggle boys--Thorne, Stone, and that other Steve--any day of the week.

I'm out of town so got the opportunity to watch the ESPN broadcast. Sutcliffe and O'Briewn did a hell of a job. They praised Ozzie and the team throughout the contest and were extremely prepared.

Here's hoping they broadcast the Sox playoff games in October. :gulp:

TheOldRoman
09-05-2005, 08:59 PM
Except that Ramirez plays a position much harder to find good hitting at than Paulie.
And does a horrible job at it. Aramis has shown that he can be better than average at third when he concentrates, but I have come to the conclusion that he just doesn't care. He blows at third, and it doesnt bother him. Good with a bat, bad with a glove, and a first class ass clown to boot.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-05-2005, 09:02 PM
Okay, now you're just talking crazy.

Why don't you name all the firstbasemen who were converted into leftfielders.

Here's the short answer. None.

We had a catcher converted once - we know how well that turned out.

http://espn-att.starwave.com/media/other/1999/1216/photo/whitesoxfisk2.jpg

fquaye149
09-05-2005, 09:21 PM
And does a horrible job at it. Aramis has shown that he can be better than average at third when he concentrates, but I have come to the conclusion that he just doesn't care. He blows at third, and it doesnt bother him. Good with a bat, bad with a glove, and a first class ass clown to boot.

he's improved a great deal with the glove. He won't be anywhere above average with it any time soon but he's pretty close to average, albeit on the low side.

At any rate - he's 100X better than Paulie would be if he played there... whereas he could probably play 1B pretty easily (though not turn the 3-6-3 nearly as well, right PHG:wink:)

DickAllen72
09-05-2005, 09:21 PM
Sorry, but you're just completely and utterly wrong. Iguchi's a decent 2nd baseman, but he has no range up the middle, doesn't have much of an arm and doesn't go back well. Harris hasn't hit, but he's been nothing short of fantastic defensively. He's more athletic, has more range and turns the double play better. It's obvious. Uribe doesn't even give Tadahito a chance to turn alot of double plays.

I'm not ripping on Iguchi. He's one of my favorite players on this team, but I'm being realistic.

Ditto all that.

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 09:33 PM
Not re-signing Paulie is not the end of the world. Daver and George mentioned two opening day 2006 possibilities: Rogowski or converting an outfielder into a first baseman. If Rogowski fails and next June the Sox find the offense needs a hot beef injection, they can always make a midseason deal for a LH thumper.

Rogo is not ready to start on a major-league team next year. The viable options are, in order of coolness/effectiveness:
Trading for Ryan Howard (probably won't happen)
Resigning PK for $9mil/year (won't happen)
Trading for Sean Casey
Trading for Lyle Overbay
Dye to 1B
If I'm missing anything, let me know.

With the PHI/MIL trades, Rowand/Anderson would quite possibly be involved, as both teams could use a young CF. Trading for Ryan Howard could be too steep a price. Sweeney may be ready in one year and will hopefully be called up next september, similar to what Anderson did this year. And, don't forget about Chris Young in a couple of years. If PK's salary is freed up and Howard/Gload(:(:) play 1B, salary gets freed up for a big-money FA like Rafael Furcal and/or for deals for Jonny G/AJ... Interesting theories abound...

Chisox003
09-05-2005, 09:38 PM
Rogo is not ready to start on a major-league team next year. The viable options are, in order of coolness/effectiveness:
Trading for Ryan Howard (probably won't happen)
Resigning PK for $9mil/year (won't happen)
Trading for Sean Casey
Trading for Lyle Overbay
Dye to 1B
If I'm missing anything, let me know.

With the PHI/MIL trades, Rowand/Anderson would quite possibly be involved, as both teams could use a young CF. Trading for Ryan Howard could be too steep a price. Sweeney may be ready in one year and will hopefully be called up next september, similar to what Anderson did this year. And, don't forget about Chris Young in a couple of years. If PK's salary is freed up and Howard/Gload(:(:) play 1B, salary gets freed up for a big-money FA like Rafael Furcal and/or for deals for Jonny G/AJ... Interesting theories abound...

If you truly believe that there is any chance that the phillies will trade Ryan Howard, pass to the left......

Edit: Looking at it now, I didnt realize Howard was 26 years old....

That makes it a much better possibility, opposed to him being only like 22 like I thought...

My bad :redface:

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 09:40 PM
If you truly believe that there is any chance that the phillies will trade Ryan Howard, pass to the left......

:bong:

What else will they do? He can garner a TON of prospects, and they almost have to hold on to Thome due to his salary and injury risk; I don't see anyone trading for Thome.

EDIT: sorry for the :hijacked:

TheOldRoman
09-05-2005, 09:46 PM
What else will they do? He can garner a TON of prospects, and they almost have to hold on to Thome due to his salary and injury risk; I don't see anyone trading for Thome.
Ryan looks like a very special player. The Phillies will trade Thome even if they have to eat half of his salary. Either that or they will find another position for Howard. Thome is good when he is healthy, but with his health record, there is no way the Phillies would choose him over Howard.

JB98
09-05-2005, 09:48 PM
he's improved a great deal with the glove. He won't be anywhere above average with it any time soon but he's pretty close to average, albeit on the low side.

At any rate - he's 100X better than Paulie would be if he played there... whereas he could probably play 1B pretty easily (though not turn the 3-6-3 nearly as well, right PHG:wink:)

I don't think Aramis has improved a lick defensively. The difference between Aramis now and Aramis two years ago? Derrek Lee is his first baseman.

JB98
09-05-2005, 09:49 PM
Ryan looks like a very special player. The Phillies will trade Thome even if they have to eat half of his salary. Either that or they will find another position for Howard. Thome is good when he is healthy, but with his health record, there is no way the Phillies would choose him over Howard.

The Phillies tried unsuccessfully to convert Howard to OF last spring training. I predict they will trade Thome and eat some salary.

Daver
09-05-2005, 09:51 PM
Rogo is not ready to start on a major-league team next year. The viable options are, in order of coolness/effectiveness:
Trading for Ryan Howard (probably won't happen)
Resigning PK for $9mil/year (won't happen)
Trading for Sean Casey
Trading for Lyle Overbay
Dye to 1B
If I'm missing anything, let me know.

With the PHI/MIL trades, Rowand/Anderson would quite possibly be involved, as both teams could use a young CF. Trading for Ryan Howard could be too steep a price. Sweeney may be ready in one year and will hopefully be called up next september, similar to what Anderson did this year. And, don't forget about Chris Young in a couple of years. If PK's salary is freed up and Howard/Gload(:(:) play 1B, salary gets freed up for a big-money FA like Rafael Furcal and/or for deals for Jonny G/AJ... Interesting theories abound...

This ain't fantasy baseball, Rogowski could win that spot in ST.

Carl Everret could find himself a first basemans glove, as a switch hitter.

JB98
09-05-2005, 09:54 PM
This ain't fantasy baseball, Rogowski could win that spot in ST.

Carl Everret could find himself a first basemans glove, as a switch hitter.

If it's going to come down to either Rogowski or Everett for 1B next year, I sure hope Rogowski is ready.

Daver
09-05-2005, 09:58 PM
If it's going to come down to either Rogowski or Everett for 1B next year, I sure hope Rogowski is ready.

Based on what?

The fact that Carl would have better numbers than Paul if he played everyday, or the fact that you have no confidence in Casey?

mr_genius
09-05-2005, 10:00 PM
It seems like the non "FOGIDPK" (As people who, gasp, supported Konerko came to be known) just wait for Konerko to either make a mistake on the field, or say something that raises controversy

The minute that happens.....Boom! 400 post thread full of arguments which you were VERY much involved in

But now that he's hitting .280 and is THE main power threat in our lineup, would you repeat your comment above if he said something that "threatened team chemistry"?

Doubt it

As for resigning Konerko, he's not worth $10 million, not many players are....And if the Sox have to contend with Boston or the Yankees to get Paulie back, then forget about it ....

A lot of the Paulie bashers on this board don't know what they're talking about, just going along with the crowd. Some refuse to accept the fact that they were wrong, and some bring up valid points.

The vast majority of Sox fans realize how important Paulie is to this offense. I also think KW and Reinsdorf realize how important Konerko is for this offense.

Daver
09-05-2005, 10:01 PM
A lot of the Paulie bashers on this board don't know what they're talking about, just going along with the crowd. Some refuse to accept the fact that they were wrong, and some bring up valid points.

The vast majority of Sox fans realize how important Paulie is to this offense. I also think KW and Reinsdorf realize how important Konerko is for this offense.

And you support this with what?

The Dude
09-05-2005, 10:03 PM
And does a horrible job at it. Aramis has shown that he can be better than average at third when he concentrates, but I have come to the conclusion that he just doesn't care. He blows at third, and it doesnt bother him. Good with a bat, bad with a glove, and a first class ass clown to boot.

I agree. Aramis Ramirez at 3rd base = Manny at LF. Two big talents who look lost playing their positions and dont seem to care when they struggle.

PicktoCLick72
09-05-2005, 10:06 PM
I know I will get pummled for this but At 10 million, I want Paulie back next year. People can talk about how slow he is and how bad his slumps are but in reality, he is our only power option. The Sox have done a great job turning themselves into a speed team but they cannot totally remove any aspect of consistent power in the lineup and expect to be the same team. I know a few people here are fallling in love with Overbay, but he is just a glorified Dan Pasqua.

As for Rogo, it is unrealistic to think he will be ready for next year. Also, considering he was supposed to be part of the Griffey trade, maybe that shows Kw's thoughts on wanting to keep konerko.

I know this post will attract about a dozen rants on Paulie's inabilities but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-05-2005, 10:07 PM
The Phillies tried unsuccessfully to convert Howard to OF last spring training. I predict they will trade Thome and eat some salary.

They won't find any takers with his enormous salary.

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 10:07 PM
This ain't fantasy baseball, Rogowski could win that spot in ST.

Carl Everret could find himself a first basemans glove, as a switch hitter.Unfortunately, they can't wait until ST to find out. If they can't re-sign PK at a reasonable price (I'm betting they can't), I would find a servicable journeyman or declining 1B that they can get relatively cheap. Someone who might not be a huge help, but who won't hurt you, either. If he can serve as a backup OF, that's a plus. Shea Hillenbrand, for example. If Rogowski makes the jump, they're not out much and they have a backup.

Chisox003
09-05-2005, 10:07 PM
I know I will get pummled for this but At 10 million, I want Paulie back next year. People can talk about how slow he is and how bad his slumps are but in reality, he is our only power option. The Sox have done a great job turning themselves into a speed team but they cannot totally remove any aspect of consistent power in the lineup and expect to be the same team. I know a few people here are fallling in love with Overbay, but he is just a glorified Dan Pasqua.

As for Rogo, it is unrealistic to think he will be ready for next year. Also, considering he was supposed to be part of the Griffey trade, maybe that shows Kw's thoughts on wanting to keep konerko.

I know this post will attract about a dozen rants on Paulie's inabilities but I just wanted to get this off my chest.

Oh here we go......

:duck:

The Dude
09-05-2005, 10:09 PM
This FOPK and FOGIDPK arguments will never end on this board. If PK hit .330 with 50 jacks, people would still say he can easily be replaced because hes slow as hell, diarrhea mouth, plays only 1st, etc.

Now I wouldn't mind the Dye or Crazy Carl to first idea if one of our minor league OF's are ready for next season...but for now and until PK leaves for 12 mil +, I'm glad as hell he is playing 1st base for our 2005 Chicago White Sox. :D:

mr_genius
09-05-2005, 10:14 PM
And you support this with what?

Just an observation after reading countless posts on "Konerko sucks", "bad teammate" ect that I've seen on this board. The guy is probably gonna end up hitting .280 and with 40 hr's. He is also a team leader in the club house. Konerko doesn't "suck". Sorry, I don't have any specefic links to posts... also too lazy to find them.

As far as Reinsdorf and KW, I have heard interviews in which both Reinsdorf and KW have said they consider re-signing Konerko a major goal for next season. I also think JR realizes the it could be a mistake by not re-signing a fan favorite like Konerko. Many fans already feel Reinsdorf has "sold them out" or "only cares about profits" and he knows (as shown by recent years attendance figures as compared to past years in which the Sox would outdraw the scrubbies) that this sentiment is out there. I don't agree with Sox fans who think Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning, I think he's a pretty good owner.

I didn't mean to bring up attendance, but it would have been difficult to support my previous post without it.

Daver
09-05-2005, 10:19 PM
Just an observation after reading countless posts on "Konerko sucks", "bad teammate" ect that I've seen on this board. The guy is probably gonna end up hitting .280 and with 40 hr's. He is also a team leader in the club house. Konerko doesn't "suck". Sorry, I don't have any specefic links to posts... also too lazy to find them.

As far as Reinsdorf and KW, I have heard interviews in which both Reinsdorf and KW have said they consider re-signing Konerko a major goal for next season. I also think JR realizes the it could be a mistake by not re-signing a fan favorite like Konerko. Many fans already feel Reinsdorf has "sold them out" or "only cares about profits" and he knows (as shown by recent years attendance figures as compared to past years in which the Sox would outdraw the scrubbies) that this sentiment is out there. I don't agree with Sox fans who think Reinsdorf doesn't care about winning, I think he's a pretty good owner.

I didn't mean to bring up attendance, but it would have been difficult to support my previous post without it.

Paul got rewarded with a big contract already, because he was a fan favorite, that is why he is overpaid now.

mr_genius
09-05-2005, 10:24 PM
Paul got rewarded with a big contract already, because he was a fan favorite, that is why he is overpaid now.

Hopefully Paulie will return the favor by accepting a reasonable offer to stay.

I think 9 mil is reasonable (atleast in the current financial atmosphere in MLB).

jabrch
09-05-2005, 10:24 PM
This FOPK and FOGIDPK arguments will never end on this board. If PK hit .330 with 50 jacks, people would still say he can easily be replaced because hes slow as hell, diarrhea mouth, plays only 1st, etc.


Seeing how he is a career .278 hitter and his last 3 seasons have been .277, .276, .234, I am going to hold my breath until he delivers that .300/50 season. Me thinks people here would be THRILLED if he was able to do that. With the power he has developed over the past three years, if he could bring the average back to where it was from 2000 - 2002, he'd be one of the best hitters in the game. I doubt you'd here much complaining except for from the usual darkclouds who will be complaining until the day they die.

jabrch
09-05-2005, 10:26 PM
Based on what?

The fact that Carl would have better numbers than Paul if he played everyday, or the fact that you have no confidence in Casey?

I think Carl looks much better when he does not have a glove in his hand. I'd take Rogo for the minimum over Carl with a glove. Carl is a FA after this year, right?

Daver
09-05-2005, 10:33 PM
I think Carl looks much better when he does not have a glove in his hand. I'd take Rogo for the minimum over Carl with a glove. Carl is a FA after this year, right?

Team option I believe.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-05-2005, 10:35 PM
Team option I believe.

Carl Everett - Team option $5 mil for 2006 or $500,000 buyout.

Mr. White Sox
09-05-2005, 10:59 PM
If you truly believe that there is any chance that the phillies will trade Ryan Howard, pass to the left......

Edit: Looking at it now, I didnt realize Howard was 26 years old....

That makes it a much better possibility, opposed to him being only like 22 like I thought...

My bad :redface:

That is quite OK :smile:...question though...if, in a certain scenario, the Phillies find out that Jim Thome has no status as trade bait and can't get rid of him, would you be willing to part with 2+ top prospects for Ryan Howard?

And for whomever said to wait until ST to see if Rogo can get the starter position...if you're a contending team, you're probably not waiting until the last few weeks before the regular season to determine a crucial roster spot involving an OF transfer to first and an unheralded rookie who has 0 major-league experience whatsoever. Yes, this isn't fantasy baseball, but nobody can reasonably predict how Rogo will fare in his first year, and his .290 line in AA this year isn't anything exceptional...neither is his 5:3 SB:CS ratio.

MarySwiss
09-05-2005, 11:05 PM
WARNING: BIG PAULIE FAN!

And I just cannot understand how any true Sox fan CANNOT be. Paulie basically carried this team throughout August. Pitiful as August was, who the hell else was hitting? And as much as I hate to say anything favorable about ESPN broadcasters, one of them today--Sutcliffe, I think--pointed out that even when Konerko's average sucked bigtime, he was still hitting dingers and knocking RBIs. Not to mention that he is a consummate professional, has refused to be drawn into a discussion about his contract renewal, and has kept focused on the ultimate goal that we all share--winning the whole thing.

Based on what I've seen here, the main problem people have with Paulie is that they don't like him popping off. But when Ozzie does it, it's just Ozzie being Ozzie? Quite frankly, I don't care who says what, as long as it causes no team problems. And it doesn't seem to have so far.

Paulie bashers, I am puzzled. Please explain what your problem with this guy is, and tell me where you think this team would be right now without him, and what (concrete facts, not the usual "well we could have gotten so-and-so") you base this opinion on. Enquiring minds want to know.

JB98
09-05-2005, 11:05 PM
Based on what?

The fact that Carl would have better numbers than Paul if he played everyday, or the fact that you have no confidence in Casey?

I don't have confidence that Carl can be serviceable defensively at first base. I don't have confidence that Casey is the answer NEXT YEAR. Maybe in 2007.

voodoochile
09-05-2005, 11:07 PM
This ain't fantasy baseball, Rogowski could win that spot in ST.

Carl Everret could find himself a first basemans glove, as a switch hitter.

If they don't resign Paulie, that is exactly what I expect to happen. Then they need to find a big bat for the DH spot and the team will be primed to make a repeat run at the division and beyond. The primary problem the Sox are going to face is what to do with 6 quality starting pitchers next year. Look for Duque to get traded if Contreras continues to pitch like he has.

Buehrle, Garcia, Garland, Contreras and McCarthy... be still my beating heart. Best rotation in baseball by a long shot next year.

Of course none of that matters now, there is unfinished business to attend to...

JB98
09-05-2005, 11:08 PM
And you support this with what?

Konerko leads the team in HRs, RBIs, OBP, walks and runs scored. He is second on the team in hits, just two behind A-Row.

I think there's ample evidence that Konerko is a vital cog in this offense.

voodoochile
09-05-2005, 11:12 PM
This FOPK and FOGIDPK arguments will never end on this board. If PK hit .330 with 50 jacks, people would still say he can easily be replaced because hes slow as hell, diarrhea mouth, plays only 1st, etc.

Now I wouldn't mind the Dye or Crazy Carl to first idea if one of our minor league OF's are ready for next season...but for now and until PK leaves for 12 mil +, I'm glad as hell he is playing 1st base for our 2005 Chicago White Sox. :D:

If PK hits 50 jacks with a .330 average next year, I will run down any street of your choosing anywhere in the nation butt naked screaming "I love Paulie Konerko and want to have his baby". :rolleyes:

It will be as ugly a sight as has been seen in this country in a long long time, but for those numbers, I will do it...:tongue:

PK's got a good bat. Pk's got a big mouth. PK is not irreplaceable and for that $10M they could resign CC and find another nice bat to be 1B/DH, or upgrade the 3B slot massively, hand Dye a 1B glove, turn the DH slot over to CC full time and put Anderson in RF and still have some money left over...

noquitter
09-05-2005, 11:14 PM
Please explain what your problem with this guy is...I really don't like the way he back stabs his teammates in the media. Fortunately, he seems to have stopped doing that lately, which is a very welcome change.

Nellie_Fox
09-05-2005, 11:18 PM
I wasn't bothered by Jenks hanging 2 curveballs. You can't give the Red Sox 4 outs in an inning. They're just too stacked.I thought it was closer to 5 outs. The Millar double would have been a routing fly out in any other ballpark in baseball, and only the fact that our left fielder is inexperienced in playing the monster kept it from being an out anyway (not criticizing him; it takes Boston guys a long time to learn it, but that ball hit low enough on the wall that if he'd trusted Rowand to play any carom, he could have gotten back to the wall and caught that.)

mr_genius
09-05-2005, 11:22 PM
PK's got a good bat. Pk's got a big mouth. PK is not irreplaceable and for that $10M they could resign CC and find another nice bat to be 1B/DH, or upgrade the 3B slot massively, hand Dye a 1B glove, turn the DH slot over to CC full time and put Anderson in RF and still have some money left over...

First off, there is no way Carl should be our regular at 1B. It would be a downgrade in defense and offense. He's also getting up there in age and I think his skills will start to diminish and injuries will happen more often. Secondly, there really aren't any free agents available that will give us Paulies numbers. He deserves 9 million a year, that is his market value for a reason.

Nellie_Fox
09-05-2005, 11:24 PM
On the postgame, Kruk just rolled out to bed to say that the Sox arent for real because they dont have "that bopper in the middle of the lineup." This just after Paulie went 2-4 with 2B and a HR, not to mention a nice pick to end the game.You guys take everything Kruk says the worst possible way. That's not what he said, and not what he meant.

He was asked why people don't take the Sox more seriously, and he said, essentially, that it's because they don't have a great offensive lineup, they don't have the big bopper, the 45-50 HR guy, (you left out that definition of a big bopper he threw in, thus not a slam on Paulie) in the middle of the lineup. He said they are more like a National League team. Since I've always gotten the impression that Kruk still thinks the National League style of ball is superior, I don't think anything he said could be taken as meaning the Sox "aren't for real" (he never used those words.)

voodoochile
09-05-2005, 11:26 PM
First off, there is no way Carl should be our regular at 1B. It would be a downgrade in defense and offense. He's also getting up there in age and I think his skills will start to diminish and injuries will happen more often. Secondly, there really aren't any free agents available that will give us Paulies numbers. He deserves 9 million a year, that is his market value for a reason.

What if the Yankees offer $12M? Is he still worth it?

CC won't be that big of a downgrade in offensive numbers.

mr_genius
09-05-2005, 11:33 PM
What if the Yankees offer $12M? Is he still worth it?

CC won't be that big of a downgrade in offensive numbers.

Crazy could be a big problem defensively at first. I also don't think next year he will put up numbers equal too or even close too Paulies.

As far as a bidding war with the Yankees, the sox obviously can't win that... hopefully Paulie will give the sox a "home town" discount.

The Dude
09-05-2005, 11:34 PM
What if the Yankees offer $12M? Is he still worth it?

CC won't be that big of a downgrade in offensive numbers.

I dont think he's worth $12 mil either. But if CC takes the PK role....which big bopper fills the newly vacated CC role? It would have to be a 4-5 million replacement obviously, but i dont see a viable option out there as of yet. Either way, we lose production in the # 3-4 hitter's spot next season.

I, :whiner:sadly:whiner:, think PK will get over 12 million from the Yanks or Blow sox and we will have no chance of keeping him regardless. Lets hope he can help us get a ring before he becomes glorified by Spankmee/Carmine fans.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-05-2005, 11:36 PM
First off, there is no way Carl should be our regular at 1B. It would be a downgrade in defense and offense. He's also getting up there in age and I think his skills will start to diminish and injuries will happen more often. Secondly, there really aren't any free agents available that will give us Paulies numbers. He deserves 9 million a year, that is his market value for a reason.

I agree. I would resign Konerko for a few years at a rate which is a slight raise from the average of the past few years. I wouldn't match a Yankee or Boston offer. I wouldn't put Carl at first. I wouldn't assume Carl will stay healthy and his production will regress with his age. I like converting Dye if he is willing and able. If we keep Carl plug him at DH and emergency OF (or a couple trips out there a month). If we can't convert Dye we should acquire a lower cost alternative and spend the savings at 3B. I like Konerko and think the Sox would have a much smaller lead without him. Without Frank he fills a big void. He walks / takes many pitches and also gobbles up the errant throws and is also a very good fielder. Blum is not an everyday option either - he should be utility only.

jabrch
09-05-2005, 11:49 PM
If PK hits 50 jacks with a .330 average next year, I will run down any street of your choosing anywhere in the nation butt naked screaming "I love Paulie Konerko and want to have his baby". :rolleyes:

It will be as ugly a sight as has been seen in this country in a long long time, but for those numbers, I will do it...:tongue:

I have met VC in person. The mere thought of that is enough to make me want to poke out my mind's eye. VC - I have put on about 25 lbs since we met, and if PK hits 50 jacks with a .330 average next year, I'll be running right behind you...

We'd love Pauly if he hit like that despite his big mouth. But when you are hitting .275, **** and play.

Vince
09-05-2005, 11:51 PM
Some observations on the PK debate:

While I agree PK's slow starts can be maddening, the fact is, he always turns it on the 2nd half, which is when it is needed most. Right now he is on fire and just at the time we need our offensive players to step it up. Producing in the stretch run on a playoff-bound team has a lot of value.

I think an underlying, but subconcious part of the PK debate is some people want him to be Frank Thomas circa-1993. We want him to put those kind of numbers up and have that level of ability. Well, here's the problem -- that's almost an impossible standard to hold someone to. For a stretch of, what, eight years, Thomas was probably the best right handed hitter baseball has ever seen. It's an almost impossible standard to hold someone to and it's not fair to PK.

On a different topic, anyone else getting the feeling that Uribe might be getting into one of his "look completely dominant at the plate for a month or two" modes at the perfect time? I know he's had stretches of a week or two this year like that, but he really looks like he's clicking right now. Perfect timing, too.

When he and PK hit like they are hitting right now they can carry a team... all the way to October.

jabrch
09-05-2005, 11:53 PM
Team option I believe.

I know KW likes him. Heck, I like having a switch hitter who drives in runs too. He fits well here. I just wonder what he's going to cost. Any idea how much the option is for? I guess a lot depends on what happens with Frank.

jabrch
09-05-2005, 11:56 PM
On a different topic, anyone else getting the feeling that Uribe might be getting into one of his "look completely dominant at the plate for a month or two" modes at the perfect time? I know he's had stretches of a week or two this year like that, but he really looks like he's clicking right now. Perfect timing, too.

Since adding that leg kick as a timing mechanism, he has really picked it up. If he gets on a 2 month tear, we will be even tougher to handle. Having a bat down there who can turn on a ball is huge.

The Dude
09-05-2005, 11:57 PM
I have met VC in person. The mere thought of that is enough to make me want to poke out my mind's eye. VC - I have put on about 25 lbs since we met, and if PK hits 50 jacks with a .330 average next year, I'll be running right behind you....

Well if thats the case....I hope he never gets those numbers!:cool:

voodoochile
09-05-2005, 11:59 PM
I have met VC in person. The mere thought of that is enough to make me want to poke out my mind's eye. VC - I have put on about 25 lbs since we met, and if PK hits 50 jacks with a .330 average next year, I'll be running right behind you...

We'd love Pauly if he hit like that despite his big mouth. But when you are hitting .275, **** and play.

Well the good news is that I have lost about 40 pounds since you saw me and added some muscle, but it still won't be something to write home about...:cool:

Rikirk
09-06-2005, 12:06 AM
Im not gonna go into the numbers thing...'cuz I don't have a head for it.(Im stupid that way.)

But I would like to express my opinion...

These are the people we should keep:

Paul Konerko
Tadahito Iguchi
Scott Podsednik
A.J. Pierzynski
Willie Harris
Brian Anderson
Frank Thomas
Carl Everett
Jermaine Dye
Cris Widger
Aaron Rowand
Joe Crede
Pablo Ozuna

(Pitchers)

Brandon McCarthy
Mark Buehrle
Freddy Garcia
Jon Garland
Bobby Jenks
Dustin Hermanson
Neil Cotts


These guys you keep...

As for the rest...do with them what they will...dont care for 'em.


My 2 cents

voodoochile
09-06-2005, 12:06 AM
I dont think he's worth $12 mil either. But if CC takes the PK role....which big bopper fills the newly vacated CC role? It would have to be a 4-5 million replacement obviously, but i dont see a viable option out there as of yet. Either way, we lose production in the # 3-4 hitter's spot next season.

I, :whiner:sadly:whiner:, think PK will get over 12 million from the Yanks or Blow sox and we will have no chance of keeping him regardless. Lets hope he can help us get a ring before he becomes glorified by Spankmee/Carmine fans.

Well, the Sox may well be able to put together a package of pretty attractive players staring wtih Contreras or El Duque (hopefully El Duque as he has injury issues that Contreras doesn't). Add in a guy like Rowand and/or Crede and it starts to be worth something to another team. Suddenly a guy like Griffey might be back on the table.

What's the FA 3B class like any good names out there? I for one would rather take a run at a top of the line 3B and take my chances at the 1B/Dh slot with some older player on the downside of his career. Heck, if Frank heals enough to be a viable option, give him an incentive laden contract and give him 2 days off a week and tell him that every time he gets a hit and it doesn't leave the park it's a single and everytime he is on base and someone gets a hit behind him, he is to advance one base and only one base unless the ball leaves the park on the fly or on a hop.

Lot's of good ways to use $10-12M that don't include PK even if he is the best bat on this year's team. What exactly is that saying anyway?

At the least if PK stays, they need to find a legitimate #3 and cleanup hitter so PK can take his rightful place in the 5 hole. I for one would rather spend his money filling the other two holes which are weak by MLB standards on this year's team and take my chances on CC in the 5 hole...

Nellie_Fox
09-06-2005, 12:17 AM
:tomatoaward: :tomatoaward:

The Dude
09-06-2005, 12:17 AM
What's the FA 3B class like any good names out there?

Very good points on the PK situation. I think a Contreras could be dealt, but we'd have to pick up some of that large salary he makes.

Here's the link I use for FA's now. http://www.mlb4u.com/freeagent.html

I guess the top guys out there are Randa and Mueller.

santo=dorf
09-06-2005, 12:28 AM
What do you guys think of the idea of trading Garland?

ilsox7
09-06-2005, 12:35 AM
What do you guys think of the idea of trading Garland?

Thinking this year is a fluke? And sell high?

No way, IMO.

Mr. White Sox
09-06-2005, 12:35 AM
What do you guys think of the idea of trading Garland?

I'd do it, especially if he wins the Cy Young this year. [ducks] Think of the magical, magical pieces we could get in a trade like that, and think of the potential salary freed up! :o:

I am probably in the minority here, but I'd love to see other responses. I'm not going to get more in-depth at the moment in my argument, b/c I'm quite tired, but I look forward to the replies.

The Dude
09-06-2005, 12:36 AM
What do you guys think of the idea of trading Garland?

I suspect people will freak out about that idea these days. It wasnt too long ago that many of us (including myself) wanted him off the team.

Heres some funny old thread's (Note to newbies, do not reply to the old thread)
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38429&highlight=trade+garland
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=39587&highlight=trade+garland

santo=dorf
09-06-2005, 12:37 AM
Thinking this year is a fluke? And sell high?

No way, IMO.
He's going to clean up in arbitration, and he'll be a free agent after 2006.

ilsox7
09-06-2005, 12:37 AM
I'd do it, especially if he wins the Cy Young this year. [ducks] Think of the magical, magical pieces we could get in a trade like that, and think of the potential salary freed up! :o:

I am probably in the minority here, but I'd love to see other responses. I'm not going to get more in-depth at the moment in my argument, b/c I'm quite tired, but I look forward to the replies.

I just don't get it. For years we toiled with not enough starting pitching and a big offense. Now we finally have the starting pitching, which is leading to wins, and you want to start trading it off?

Rikirk
09-06-2005, 12:38 AM
Why give up one of your best pitchers?


IMHO...

I would not do it.

ilsox7
09-06-2005, 12:39 AM
He's going to clean up in arbitration, and he'll be a free agent after 2006.

I would think the organization's thinking is that with the core of this team basically in place thru next year and possibly longer, we will have competitive/playoff teams consistently. That leads to higher revenues and therefore an appropriately higher payroll.

Nellie_Fox
09-06-2005, 12:43 AM
I would think the organization's thinking is that with the core of this team basically in place thru next year and possibly longer, we will have competitive/playoff teams consistently. That leads to higher revenues and therefore an appropriately higher payroll.Oh, the Reinsdorf haters are going to be all up in your face now. Head for the bunker!
http://www.casaroccapiccola.com/images2/Bomb-Shelter.jpg

Mr. White Sox
09-06-2005, 12:48 AM
I would think the organization's thinking is that with the core of this team basically in place thru next year and possibly longer, we will have competitive/playoff teams consistently. That leads to higher revenues and therefore an appropriately higher payroll.

And that's the zinger right there. If Unkie Jerry is more than willing to open his pockets and pay Jon AJ Burnett money in 2006-07(post arb.), then sure, don't trade him. But if the payroll is going to stick at around 75-85 million, I don't think there's any way you can conceivably keep Garland and keep AJ, Rowand, Buehrle, Freddy, Jose, etc...trading Garland in 2006- provided McCarthy is healthy and starting and one more starting pitcher is acquired/El Duque is healthy-I could see it happening provided the payroll model stays the same.

I can't wait for this archived thread to be brought back a year later and someone telling someone "I TOLD YOU SO!"

There I go, overcoming sleepyness to respond. :smile:


EDIT: lol, good call Mr. Fox.

ilsox7
09-06-2005, 12:50 AM
And that's the zinger right there. If Unkie Jerry is more than willing to open his pockets and pay Jon AJ Burnett money in 2006-07(post arb.), then sure, don't trade him. But if the payroll is going to stick at around 75-85 million, I don't think there's any way you can conceivable keep Garland and keep AJ, Rowand, Buehrle, Freddy, Jose, etc...trading Garland in 2006, provided McCarthy is healthy and starting and one more starting pitcher is acquired/El Duque is healthy, I could see it happening provided the payroll model stays the same.

I can't wait for this archived thread to be brought back a year later and someone telling someone "I TOLD YOU SO!"

There I go, overcoming sleepyness to respond. :smile:


EDIT: lol, good call Mr. Fox.

I disagree. Right now, Garland is a piece of a Championship run. If he is part of a Championship run next year, you don't trade him. If the cost of a Championship, or at least a run close to one, is losing Garland for nothing, then so be it.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-06-2005, 02:24 AM
Im not gonna go into the numbers thing...'cuz I don't have a head for it.(Im stupid that way.)

But I would like to express my opinion...

These are the people we should keep:

Paul Konerko, Tadahito Iguchi, Scott Podsednik, A.J. Pierzynski, Willie Harris, Brian Anderson, Frank Thomas, Carl Everett, Jermaine Dye, Cris Widger, Aaron Rowand, Joe Crede, Pablo Ozuna

(Pitchers)

Brandon McCarthy, Mark Buehrle, Freddy Garcia, Jon Garland, Bobby Jenks,
Dustin Hermanson, Neil Cotts

These guys you keep...

As for the rest...do with them what they will...dont care for 'em.
My 2 cents

Jose Contreras is under contract through next season ($9 mil). I don't think he can be traded (few teams can pony up theat kind of $). He has been one of the best pitchers the second half. He is staying. El Duque is also under contract ($3 mil, $500 k buyout in 2007 or $3.5 mil team option). His contract can be dealt. You need five starters and you are short one above. I think Contreras is staying.

You also left off Juan Uribe (2 more years $7.3 mil total) and Marte ($2.5 mil 2006 with two $3 mil options - I don't know if they are player / team or both). They are staying as well.

Payroll is at $55 mil assuming Frank's buyout for the players I put in bold. We still need to sign a 3B (Crede cheap or someone else - I don't think Fields is ready), a catcher (hopefully AJ), a 1B (Konerko if reasonable - otherwise someone else), a DH (depending on Frank's health) and a few bullpen pitchers - Politte, Jenks, Cotts. Maybe a starter gets traded for one of the above mentioned needs and we plug McCarthy in.

It will be as busy of an offseason this year as last. Kenny Williams did a great job last winter and hopefully he will do the same this offseason. After next season we will have even more flexibility as several more players will be no longer under contract.

Hangar18
09-06-2005, 09:41 AM
I would think the organization's thinking is that with the core of this team basically in place thru next year and possibly longer, we will have competitive/playoff teams consistently. That leads to higher revenues and therefore an appropriately higher payroll.


:reinsy ...........er ........ummmmmmm You know .......funny that
you should mention a higher payroll next year, I was thinking ......

hawkjt
09-06-2005, 11:39 AM
If Paulie is so average why would Boston and NY get in a bidding war over him? Because he is the best hitter on our team,I'd guess. Remember the games he missed with the bad back. Our offense was totally inept.

He leads in virtually every hitting catagory. He is clutch. He has very good hands down at first. He is a team leader. If he ripped on teammates like people fantasize on here he would not be one of the most popular player on the team.

This is just silly in our best season in many years to constantly rip on the offensive leader. I like Frank as much as anyone but that one comment 3 years ago by Paulie toward Frank is never to be forgiven even if he leads us to a WS? Let it go folks.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2005, 12:11 PM
Jose Contreras is under contract through next season ($9 mil). I don't think he can be traded (few teams can pony up theat kind of $).
Are you kidding? First of all, we are paying Jose $6 mil a year, the Yankees are picking up the rest. The money we receive would go to any team Jose went to. Most importantly, did you watch the pitcher movement this past offseason? Garbage pitchers like Paul Wilson and Eric Milton got $7-8 mil a year. One season wonders like Pavano got $10 mil a year. Jose is not Burnett (though he has the potential to be just as good as Burnett) but he will be much better than almost anyone else available. I still dont think we trade him, but if we decide to move him, there will be several teams looking to deal.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-06-2005, 12:24 PM
Are you kidding? First of all, we are paying Jose $6 mil a year, the Yankees are picking up the rest. The money we receive would go to any team Jose went to. Most importantly, did you watch the pitcher movement this past offseason? Garbage pitchers like Paul Wilson and Eric Milton got $7-8 mil a year. One season wonders like Pavano got $10 mil a year. Jose is not Burnett (though he has the potential to be just as good as Burnett) but he will be much better than almost anyone else available. I still dont think we trade him, but if we decide to move him, there will be several teams looking to deal.

Teams thought those garbage pitchers were better than they are. Contreras is around 40 years old (only he knows for sure). The Yankees sent over a few million at the time of the trade but that needs to be prorated over the 2 1/2 years he is here.

I guarantee he will be here next season finishing up his contract. El Duque - Any team can afford his contract - even the Royals.

Frater Perdurabo
09-06-2005, 12:44 PM
I'm so glad a post-win postgame thread is getting so many passionate replies! :redneck

Ol' No. 2
09-06-2005, 12:51 PM
I'm so glad a post-win postgame thread is getting so many passionate replies! :redneckToo bad so many are of the "Tastes Great!"/"Less Filling!" variety.:(:

fquaye149
09-06-2005, 01:19 PM
I'd do it, especially if he wins the Cy Young this year. [ducks] Think of the magical, magical pieces we could get in a trade like that, and think of the potential salary freed up! :o:

I am probably in the minority here, but I'd love to see other responses. I'm not going to get more in-depth at the moment in my argument, b/c I'm quite tired, but I look forward to the replies.

You think we could trade him for Erstad?

KW get on the phone!!!!!!!!!!!

p.s. - trading garland would free up so very little salary, considering that he won't be making much more than 7 or 8 mil next year with arbitration even if he DOES win the cy

fquaye149
09-06-2005, 01:20 PM
If Paulie is so average why would Boston and NY get in a bidding war over him?

:contreras:
why indeed!

Hangar18
09-06-2005, 01:36 PM
p.s. - trading garland would free up so very little salary, considering that he won't be making much more than 7 or 8 mil next year with arbitration even if he DOES win the cy




:reinsy
".....ummmm say guys, Ive been meaning to bring this up...... you remember how we saved a bunch of money of money dumping
Maggs and Carlos and got a bunch of good players? Hear me out here, what if we ..................."

TheOldRoman
09-06-2005, 01:38 PM
Teams thought those garbage pitchers were better than they are. Contreras is around 40 years old (only he knows for sure). The Yankees sent over a few million at the time of the trade but that needs to be prorated over the 2 1/2 years he is here.

I guarantee he will be here next season finishing up his contract. El Duque - Any team can afford his contract - even the Royals.
No, they sent over money for each year of his contract. They sent over enough to make the Sox pay $6mil in 05 and $6mil in 06. It doesn't make a bit of difference how old Contreras is. He is only under contract for one more year. He has been great lately, and if he continues into the playoffs, any team in baseball (other than small market teams) would be willing to pay $6mil for an ace.
As for "any team" being able to afford El Duque but nobody affording Contreras, El Duque is making $4.5 mil next year, so Contreras would only get $1.5mil more.

maurice
09-06-2005, 01:42 PM
I don't hate Konerko and wish to God he would hit .330/50HR. This team could really use that type of world-class production out of the cleanup spot. However, I can with a great deal of confidence say that it never will happen. The bottom line is that I don't think KW should give him 10+% of the Sox payroll.

What I really hate are the large number of idiotic claims to the effect that:
- Konerko is as good as Manny Ramirez (or another truly great hitter)
- Konerko is irreplaceable and worth as much as a truly great hitter
- Konerko always turns it on down the stretch and/or in the clutch
- Konerko is a Gold Glove defender and/or his defense is vital to the Sox
- Konerko is a great leader of men
- HR and RBI totals are everything
- 2B, 3B, SB, SLG, and OPS are meaningless
- etc., etc., etc.

All of these claims are obviously false and have been debunked on this site time and time again . . . yet there's always a queue of blind FOPK waiting to spew this nonsense every time Konerko hits a HR. Examples can be found throughout this thread. The understandably harsh response to this repeated nonsense is falsely named "Paulie hatred."

SoxSpeed22
09-06-2005, 01:43 PM
:reinsy ".....ummmm say guys, Ive been meaning to bring this up...... you remember how we saved a bunch of money of money dumping
Maggs and Carlos and got a bunch of good players? Hear me out ......
":fobbgod:"Hey! Quit bitin' my style! You trade him for another team's top pitching prospects, and I mean top!"

SouthSide_HitMen
09-06-2005, 01:51 PM
No, they sent over money for each year of his contract. They sent over enough to make the Sox pay $6mil in 05 and $6mil in 06. It doesn't make a bit of difference how old Contreras is. He is only under contract for one more year. He has been great lately, and if he continues into the playoffs, any team in baseball (other than small market teams) would be willing to pay $6mil for an ace.
As for "any team" being able to afford El Duque but nobody affording Contreras, El Duque is making $4.5 mil next year, so Contreras would only get $1.5mil more.

You keep saying $6 mil. Contreras gets $9 mil. Get your facts traight. Any team who we would trade Contreras for would have to pay him $9 mil. That is twice as much as El Duque. We will have both Cubans through next season unless one or both retire or get traded. I doubt any team will take on Contreras unless he has several playoff wins where at that point I doubt KW trades him. Time will tell.

http://russells.freeshell.org/ddollars/team.php?team=whitesox&name=White%20Sox

Paulwny
09-06-2005, 01:56 PM
I don't hate Konerko and wish to God he would hit .330/50HR. This team could really use that type of world-class production out of the cleanup spot. However, I can with a great deal of confidence say that it never will happen. The bottom line is that I don't think KW should give him 10+% of the Sox payroll.

What I really hate are the large number of idiotic claims to the effect that:
- Konerko is as good as Manny Ramirez (or another truly great hitter)
- Konerko is irreplaceable and worth as much as a truly great hitter
- Konerko always turns it on down the stretch and/or in the clutch
- Konerko is a Gold Glove defender and/or his defense is vital to the Sox
- Konerko is a great leader of men
- HR and RBI totals are everything
- 2B, 3B, SB, SLG, and OPS are meaningless
- etc., etc., etc.

All of these claims are obviously false and have been debunked on this site time and time again . . . yet there's always a queue of blind FOPK waiting to spew this nonsense every time Konerko hits a HR. Examples can be found throughout this thread. The understandably harsh response to this repeated nonsense is falsely named "Paulie hatred."

Yep, the word "hate" is continually tossed around just because someone may think a player is overrated or over paid. The same situation occurred with Rowand. Those who thought he'd never be a starting OF were quickly labeled "haters".
People have negative opinions about some players, which doesn't mean that they personally hate that person. Its very hard to hate someone you've never met.

Chisox003
09-06-2005, 01:56 PM
I don't hate Konerko and wish to God he would hit .330/50HR. This team could really use that type of world-class production out of the cleanup spot. However, I can with a great deal of confidence say that it never will happen. The bottom line is that I don't think KW should give him 10+% of the Sox payroll.

What I really hate are the large number of idiotic claims to the effect that:
- Konerko is as good as Manny Ramirez (or another truly great hitter)
- Konerko is irreplaceable and worth as much as a truly great hitter
- Konerko always turns it on down the stretch and/or in the clutch
- Konerko is a Gold Glove defender and/or his defense is vital to the Sox
- Konerko is a great leader of men
- HR and RBI totals are everything
- 2B, 3B, SB, SLG, and OPS are meaningless
- etc., etc., etc.

All of these claims are obviously false and have been debunked on this site time and time again . . . yet there's always a queue of blind FOPK waiting to spew this nonsense every time Konerko hits a HR. Examples can be found throughout this thread. The understandably harsh response to this repeated nonsense is falsely named "Paulie hatred."

What "FOPK" is comparing Konerko to Manny Ramirez?

Seriously, how many hitters ARE comparable to Manny Ramirez?

And who said doubles, triples, SB's, SLG, and OPS are meaningless? What, just because someone supports Konerko, you assume they automatically throw those stats out?

Konerko a gold glove defender? :?: Na, but he's damn good ... Are you one of those guys supporting the "Move Dye to 1B" campaign, thinking he can pick and dig the ball out on a low throw like Konerko?

.........?

Flight #24
09-06-2005, 02:14 PM
You keep saying $6 mil. Contreras gets $9 mil. Get your facts traight. Any team who we would trade Contreras for would have to pay him $9 mil. That is twice as much as El Duque. We will have both Cubans through next season unless one or both retire or get traded. I doubt any team will take on Contreras unless he has several playoff wins where at that point I doubt KW trades him. Time will tell.

http://russells.freeshell.org/ddollars/team.php?team=whitesox&name=White%20Sox

You're assuming that the Sox would trade Contreras but keep the $3mil paid by NY towards his salary. I find that unlikely. That said, if he keeps dominating like he has of late, and/or pitches very well in the postseason, on a 1-yr / $9-mil deal I think there are plenty of teams that would be after Contreras. Especially in the NL. A certain team that wears red in Ohio comes to mind.

As for life after '07 for Jose, if he comes through in '06 like he has in '05, he'll be in line for another $7-9mil. If he plays like he has of late, it'll be more. But of course Contreras playing a full year like he has of late would likely mean a Cy Young.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-06-2005, 02:46 PM
You're assuming that the Sox would trade Contreras but keep the $3mil paid by NY towards his salary. I find that unlikely. That said, if he keeps dominating like he has of late, and/or pitches very well in the postseason, on a 1-yr / $9-mil deal I think there are plenty of teams that would be after Contreras. Especially in the NL. A certain team that wears red in Ohio comes to mind.

As for life after '07 for Jose, if he comes through in '06 like he has in '05, he'll be in line for another $7-9mil. If he plays like he has of late, it'll be more. But of course Contreras playing a full year like he has of late would likely mean a Cy Young.

People keep talking about the $3 mil NY gave us in 2004. That money is not sitting in a piggybank someplace in JR's attic. It has been obsorbed into the operations of the team. I like what Contreras has done in the second half but the facts are he has a 4.53 ERA during his 3 years in America and will never receive a vote for Cy Young. He is a good middle / lower end of the rotation pitcher. He may or may not get a start this postseason. He will tie Garcia as the highest paid pitcher on the club next season. He is a good pitcher but not the best pitcher on our club. He may stay on after 2006 but it will be at a reduced salary compared to the crazy contract George Steinbrenner signed him to. Anyone offering him $9 mil in 2007 (and beyond) is bonkers meaning outside of Steinbrenner, he will not see that kind of money again.

Ol' No. 2
09-06-2005, 02:49 PM
People keep talking about the $3 mil NY gave us in 2004. That money is not sitting in a piggybank someplace in JR's attic. It has been obsorbed into the operations of the team. I like what Contreras has done in the second half but the facts are he has a 4.53 ERA during his 3 years in America and will never receive a vote for Cy Young. He is a good middle / lower end of the rotation pitcher. He may or may not get a start this postseason. He will tie Garcia as the highest paid pitcher on the club next season. He is a good pitcher but not the best pitcher on our club. He may stay on after 2006 but it will be at a reduced salary compared to the crazy contract George Steinbrenner signed him to. Anyone offering him $9 mil in 2007 (and beyond) is bonkers meaning outside of Steinbrenner, he will not see that kind of money again.They gave the Sox $3M for 2005 and another $3M for 2006.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2005, 02:53 PM
They gave the Sox $3M for 2005 and another $3M for 2006.
THANK YOU!
I have been trying to say that, but he didn't understand.
Every other week somebody on this board talks about how we got screwed because we are paying Contreras 8 or 9 mil.:rolleyes:

Flight #24
09-06-2005, 03:02 PM
People keep talking about the $3 mil NY gave us in 2004. That money is not sitting in a piggybank someplace in JR's attic. It has been obsorbed into the operations of the team. I like what Contreras has done in the second half but the facts are he has a 4.53 ERA during his 3 years in America and will never receive a vote for Cy Young. He is a good middle / lower end of the rotation pitcher. He may or may not get a start this postseason. He will tie Garcia as the highest paid pitcher on the club next season. He is a good pitcher but not the best pitcher on our club. He may stay on after 2006 but it will be at a reduced salary compared to the crazy contract George Steinbrenner signed him to. Anyone offering him $9 mil in 2007 (and beyond) is bonkers meaning outside of Steinbrenner, he will not see that kind of money again.

Are you serious? Contreras in 05 has put up a pretty sterling line of: 1.27WHIP / 2 K/bb / 4.06ERA / 166IP. Barring a collapse, he's going to post 150-odd Ks, 200IP, and an ERA of approx 4. That would give him 1 excellent short season (2003), 1 bad season (2004), and 1 pretty good season (2005). Adding in another pretty good season (my initial scenario where he pitches in '06 like he has in '05), and you'll have a pretty solid #2 caliber pitcher. That price range is $7-9mil, based on deals for guys like Odalis Perez.

On the other hand, if Contreras pitches like he has the past month, he'd post an ERA of 2.14, a WHIP of 1.19, and a K/BB over 3 with a ton of Ks. Even allowing for some decrease off of his August performance, that's still Cy caliber stuff.

As for the $$$, See ON2's post on the cash being sent over. Barring a collapse from Jose, he will be a fairly attractive trade chip. In fact, I'd tag him as the pitcher most likely to be traded this offseason because he'll bring the most in return. They'd rather sign Garland long term based on youth, and El Duque won't bring as much back unless he dominates in the postseason. If they're determined to get McCarthy into the rotation in '06, that'd be my guess as to what happens.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-06-2005, 03:03 PM
They gave the Sox $3M for 2005 and another $3M for 2006.

Actually, the Yankees sent $3 mil as verified by the Chicago White Sox on their story on the trade.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040731&content_id=815281&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Cash considerations are cash neutral for 2004, with the White Sox paying the remainder of Loaiza's $4 million deal. The White Sox will pay $6 million per year on Contreras' deal that runs through 2006, with the Yankees picking up $3 million in salary and the remainder of his signing bonus spread out over the length of his contract.

The net amount the Yankees paid was $3 mil. The sox received $1 mil in 2005 and will receive $2 mil in 2006. If the Sox send that money along with Contreras in a possible deal would be part of the negotiations.

I think Contreras is a better pitcher than El Duque. I think he will be considered for the 4th spot for the playoff rotation over Hernandez - especially after each pitchers performance in the 2nd half.

That said, I hope Contreras is saving some of his money because he will never see $9 mil per year again.

Flight #24
09-06-2005, 03:04 PM
Did you even read your own quote?



Cash considerations are cash neutral for 2004, with the White Sox paying the remainder of Loaiza's $4 million deal. The White Sox will pay $6 million per year on Contreras' deal that runs through 2006, with the Yankees picking up $3 million in salary and the remainder of his signing bonus spread out over the length of his contract.

TheOldRoman
09-06-2005, 03:05 PM
Actually, the Yankees sent $3 mil as verified by the Chicago White Sox on their story on the trade.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_news.jsp?ymd=20040731&content_id=815281&vkey=news_cws&fext=.jsp

Cash considerations are cash neutral for 2004, with the White Sox paying the remainder of Loaiza's $4 million deal. The White Sox will pay $6 million per year on Contreras' deal that runs through 2006, with the Yankees picking up $3 million in salary and the remainder of his signing bonus spread out over the length of his contract.

The net amount the Yankees paid was $3 mil. The sox received $1 mil in 2005 and will receive $2 mil in 2006. If the Sox send that money along with Contreras in a possible deal would be part of the negotiations.

I think Contreras is a better pitcher than El Duque. I think he will be considered for the 4th spot for the playoff rotation over Hernandez - especially after each pitchers performance in the 2nd half.

That said, I hope Contreras is saving some of his money because he will never see $9 mil per year again.
I highlighted the key part. Look at the other website you linked to, and tell me how much his salary is in 05 and 06. This article got part of the facts wrong.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-06-2005, 03:05 PM
Did you even read your own quote?

Read the entire quote.

Ol' No. 2
09-06-2005, 03:07 PM
...1 bad season (2004)...He was 13-9 in 2004 with about a 5.5 ERA. Not great, but a lot of guys who you'd consider very good pitchers have had a lot worse seasons.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-06-2005, 03:07 PM
I highlighted the key part. Look at the other website you linked to, and tell me how much his salary is in 05 and 06. This article got part of the facts wrong.

Actually I highlighted the key part - The Yankees will send $3 mil.

One of the two sites is off $1 mil per year - at this point I would say the White Sox quote was correct and the harball site is off $1 mil per year (maybe the signing bonus is lumped in there which the White Sox site said the Yankees are picking up).

TheOldRoman
09-06-2005, 03:08 PM
Read the entire quote.
Sigh. We did read the entire quote. We highlighted the only part that was correct. We are paying Jose $6mil this year and $6mil next year. The Yankees are picking up the rest.

Frater Perdurabo
09-06-2005, 03:10 PM
Barring a collapse from Jose, he will be a fairly attractive trade chip. In fact, I'd tag him as the pitcher most likely to be traded this offseason because he'll bring the most in return. They'd rather sign Garland long term based on youth, and El Duque won't bring as much back unless he dominates in the postseason. If they're determined to get McCarthy into the rotation in '06, that'd be my guess as to what happens.

If I were the Sox, I'd keep all six starters. One never knows who might suffer an injury. Imagine trading Contreras and then late in spring training seeing El Duque or, heaven forbid, Buehrle get hurt. Then the Sox are back to having only four starters and having to overpay in a trade or call up someone from the minors. If you have six starters, the sixth best guy goes to the bullpen.

maurice
09-06-2005, 03:10 PM
What "FOPK" is comparing Konerko to Manny Ramirez?

See post #137 of this thread. Posts in another current thread compare Konerko to Ortiz and ARod.
:rolleyes:

Seriously, how many hitters ARE comparable to Manny Ramirez?

Very few. None of them are named "Paul Konerko."

And who said doubles, triples, SB's, SLG, and OPS are meaningless?

See posts in this thread (and many, many other threads) saying that Konerko is one of the top players in baseball because of his HR and RBI totals and irrespective of his significant shortcomings in other meaningful statistical areas.

What, just because someone supports Konerko, you assume they automatically throw those stats out?

I'm not the one making baseless assumptions.

Konerko a gold glove defender? :?: Na, but he's damn good.

No, he's not "damn good." He's adequate. Konerko is fundamentally sound but lacks range. His defense is not an asset, but it's not a significant liability either.

Are you one of those guys supporting the "Move Dye to 1B" campaign, thinking he can pick and dig the ball out on a low throw like Konerko?

There is absolutely no reason to belive that Dye would be a worse defensive 1B than Konerko. With the entire offseason to practice, he'll probably be better than Konerko, since's he's much more agile.

Are you one of those guys who doesn't know that Konerko was converted to 1B at the pro level, because he wasn't agile enough to play a more valuable defensive position?

TheOldRoman
09-06-2005, 03:13 PM
If I were the Sox, I'd keep all six starters. One never knows who might suffer an injury. Imagine trading Contreras and then late in spring training seeing El Duque or, heaven forbid, Buehrle get hurt. Then the Sox are back to having only four starters and having to overpay in a trade or call up someone from the minors. If you have six starters, the sixth best guy goes to the bullpen.
I agree with that 100%. McCarthy belongs in long relief at the major league level next year. Look at how much improvement Cotts made over the last year in the bullpen. Buehrle also worked in long relief. You can never have enough pitching, and I wouldn't trade anyone unless we were able to sign AJ Burnett.
Look how long it took Garland to mature into an ace. How many people would be having heart attacks if come this time next year we were 5 games back and McCarthy was 7-15 with a 5.98 era?

HotelWhiteSox
09-06-2005, 03:13 PM
That's why the theory of the winner of the World Series is the team that gets hot at the right time, we're hot and unbeatable right now. This is also the reason I didn't mind the August funk

Hopefully we can ride this through October!