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View Full Version : Should McCarthy finish as the 5th starter?


Optipessimism
09-04-2005, 07:04 PM
Per whitesox.com it doesn't look like Ozzie is going to go with a 6 man rotation down the stretch. As it stands, after McCarthy starts tomorrow, El Duque goes on 9/6 and Contreras gets the start on 9/7, both against KC.

I'm hoping Ozzie is going to use these starts to determine what he wants to do in the playoffs. For example, if Jose has another strong showing (which I think he will), I wouldn't mind seeing Brandon go into the rotation as the 5th starter for the rest of the year while El Duque gets some work in out of the pen.

Regardless of whether Ozzie goes with Contreras or El Duque, would you rather see Brandon be slotted into the rotation for the rest of the year as an evaluation period? I think would be nice to see how he can perform over a string of (counting his last start) about 5-6 starts in a row.

Chips
09-04-2005, 07:36 PM
I would rather see McCarthy out of the pen than El Duque.

Fredsox
09-04-2005, 07:37 PM
I think McCarthy is fine as a fill-in so our 5 starters get their rest but that's about as far as I'll go with him. Even if he pitches well against the Red Sox tomorrow our priorities are still 1) winning the division as quickly as possible and 2) maintaining the best record in the league to assure home field advantage. We really don't have the luxury of developing him at this time. Unless someone gets hurt he should watch & learn so he can contribute next year.

Daver
09-04-2005, 07:57 PM
I'm not a manager, or a general manager, and I don't play one on TV, but I would give McCarthy every other start for Hernandez, giving Hernandez ten days rest between starts, for the month of Sept. Orlando can be a dominating pitcher, you want him well rested for the playoffs.

Jerry_Manuel
09-04-2005, 08:02 PM
I'm not a manager, or a general manager, and I don't play one on TV, but I would give McCarthy every other start for Hernandez, giving Hernandez ten days rest between starts, for the month of Sept. Orlando can be a dominating pitcher, you want him well rested for the playoffs.

I agree, Daver.

October is the reason we signed El Duque, lets get him ready.

Daver
09-04-2005, 08:24 PM
I know nothing about baseball.

Soxzilla
09-04-2005, 08:41 PM
I'm not a manager, or a general manager, and I don't play one on TV

I know nothing about baseball.


http://espn.go.com/i/columnists/phillips_steve_35.jpg
"Neither do I, but that doesn't stop me!"

SoxinAZ
09-04-2005, 11:41 PM
I say just take El Duque out of the game early. He throws way too many pitches and usually falls apart around the 5th anyway.:gulp:

UofCSoxFan
09-04-2005, 11:52 PM
I agree with the above statement (quote did not appear for some reason)

10 days off b/n starts is waaaay to long....there is no way he stays sharp like he needs to. I think it would be better to limit him to like 80-90 pitches with McCarthy ready to come in as the long guy if El Duque only lasts to the 4th or something.

SOX ADDICT '73
09-05-2005, 12:09 AM
Per whitesox.com it doesn't look like Ozzie is going to go with a 6 man rotation down the stretch.
This disappoints me. Thanks to MLB cramming the Labor Day game down our throats, the Sox have only one day off the rest of the regular season. Our pitchers have been accustomed to going on four games rest, not necessarily four days, and I'd love to see them get a little extra time off between starts.

I know Buehrle wasn't crazy about the six-man rotation, but I seem to remember him being in favor of last season's short-lived four-man experiment down the stretch. IIRC, that was something of a disaster (contributed to a Freddy arm injury too).

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 09:17 AM
This disappoints me. Thanks to MLB cramming the Labor Day game down our throats, the Sox have only one day off the rest of the regular season. Our pitchers have been accustomed to going on four games rest, not necessarily four days, and I'd love to see them get a little extra time off between starts.

I know Buehrle wasn't crazy about the six-man rotation, but I seem to remember him being in favor of last season's short-lived four-man experiment down the stretch. IIRC, that was something of a disaster (contributed to a Freddy arm injury too).For now, I think I see Ozzie's logic. With McCarthy going today, they are effectively using a 6-man rotation for this week. They have one off-day next Monday, so putting McCarthy in on Sunday against LAA (where his turn would come up) would mean the starters would be pitching on six days rest when they hit the road to KC and Minnesota. After that, they play 20 days in a row, which would be the logical time to do it.

Right now the rotation lines up to have Garcia, Garland and Buehrle pitch on Sept 29, 30 and Oct 1. Unless he plans to use them in the playoffs in the same order, they'd have to do some juggling before that to get them lined up properly. I'd guess that's when you see McCarthy get a few starts.

kevingrt
09-05-2005, 02:07 PM
This is getting interesting now. Is McCarthy gonna battle for a position on the playoff roster? What about the playoff starting rotation? Wow what an outing today. At Fenway and B-Mac pitches 7 innings of scoreless ball. This kid is gonna be a stud. I am happy for now we didnt trade him to Cinci.

greenpeach
09-05-2005, 02:41 PM
This is getting interesting now. Is McCarthy gonna battle for a position on the playoff roster? What about the playoff starting rotation? Wow what an outing today. At Fenway and B-Mac pitches 7 innings of scoreless ball. This kid is gonna be a stud. I am happy for now we didnt trade him to Cinci.

If BMac is the real deal, who gets traded in the off-season to acquire some left-landed hitting for the lineup ? My money is on El Duque because of the Contreras contract. I can't image KW trading Buerhle, Garland or Garcia.

doublem23
09-05-2005, 02:48 PM
If BMac is the real deal, who gets traded in the off-season to acquire some left-landed hitting for the lineup ? My money is on El Duque because of the Contreras contract. I can't image KW trading Buerhle, Garland or Garcia.

Why do we have to deal someone, especially a starting pitcher, just to make room for another? Is there anything wrong with keeping all 5 and letting McCarthy start in Charlotte and have him waiting in the wings in case of injury? Contreras and Hernandez are F/A's after 2006, so I'm assuming Brandon will be a starter by then, but there's no need to give up pitching when you don't have to. You can never have too much of a good thing.

DaleJRFan
09-05-2005, 02:49 PM
Should McCarthy finish as the 5th starter?

After watching McCarthy shut down the two best offensive teams in baseball, this SHOULD be a no-brainer. But I doubt Ozzie would move El Duque out of the rotation... I like Daver's suggestion. Give McCarthy half of El Duque's starts... Maybe Ozzie agrees.

California Sox
09-05-2005, 02:54 PM
Uh, El Duque's ERA is headed for 5.00. I don't think we could get too much for him in the offseason and I think he'll have a hard time holding McCarthy off this season let alone next. I think there's no question he's the long man in the playoffs, so you might want him to have a couple weeks in that role. Either way, McCarthy has thrown 14.2 of scoreless ball against the top two offensive teams in the A.L. on the road. That deserves another shot, I think.

JRIG
09-05-2005, 03:03 PM
Why do we have to deal someone, especially a starting pitcher, just to make room for another? Is there anything wrong with keeping all 5 and letting McCarthy start in Charlotte and have him waiting in the wings in case of injury?

Well, for one thing, McCarthy is already a better pitcher than Contreras and El Duque.

Chips
09-05-2005, 03:08 PM
I say just take El Duque out of the game early. He throws way too many pitches and usually falls apart around the 5th anyway.:gulp:

That would be excellent and then McCarthy can come in and finish the job.

noquitter
09-05-2005, 03:10 PM
Well, for one thing, McCarthy is already a better pitcher than Contreras and El Duque.As a stathead you are comfortable with the sample size on this? :?:

greenpeach
09-05-2005, 03:12 PM
Why do we have to deal someone, especially a starting pitcher, just to make room for another? Is there anything wrong with keeping all 5 and letting McCarthy start in Charlotte and have him waiting in the wings in case of injury? Contreras and Hernandez are F/A's after 2006, so I'm assuming Brandon will be a starter by then, but there's no need to give up pitching when you don't have to. You can never have too much of a good thing.

You've made my point for me. If BMac is the real deal then we need to get SOMETHING for El Duque or Contreras before they become free agents.

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 03:13 PM
You've made my point for me. If BMac is the real deal then we need to get SOMETHING for El Duque or Contreras before they become free agents.McCarthy has had two dominating starts. But they're still just two starts. I'd like to see a few more before annointing him the next Messiah.

Daver
09-05-2005, 03:14 PM
Well, for one thing, McCarthy is already a better pitcher than Contreras and El Duque.

When Hernandez is on, he has the best stuff on the staff. I'd get him plenty of rest and let him start game one of the playoffs.

Fredsox
09-05-2005, 03:17 PM
Well, for one thing, McCarthy is already a better pitcher than Contreras and El Duque.

I respectfully disagree. He has what - 5 or 6 major league starts? He's put together 2 quality starts at the major league level and some folks seem ready to anoint him as the second coming of Mark Prior (insert tongue in cheek here). Would you REALLY want him on the mound in the playoffs in stead of 2 guys who have been there before? C'mon folks. He's very talented, I'm positive he will do very well next year but historically teams have not been more successful with inexperienced players in the post-season.

Can't we focus on preparing for the playoffs? Sorry, but I don't care a whit if McCarthy does not get another start this season. He should be in the lineup if Guillen feels it will benefit the team's post-season preparation.

sox1970
09-05-2005, 03:23 PM
McCarthy has had two dominating starts. But they're still just two starts. I'd like to see a few more before annointing him the next Messiah.

If you take in consideration the last eight starts for Charlotte, McCarthy's numbers become that much more impressive. Including Texas and Boston, here are his stats for his last ten starts:

67.2 innings
1.46 ERA
41 hits
15 walks
57 strikeouts
0.83 WHIP

This is dominating stuff. I think you ride him until he proves you wrong. This is no time to look out for guys feelings. We have a pennant to win, and McCarthy might be a big part of winning it.

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 03:24 PM
McCarthy has had two dominating starts. But they're still just two starts. I'd like to see a few more before annointing him the next Messiah.

If you take in consideration the last eight starts for Charlotte, McCarthy's numbers become that much more impressive. Including Texas and Boston, here are his stats for his last ten starts:

67.2 innings
1.46 ERA
41 hits
15 walks
57 strikeouts
0.83 WHIP

This is dominating stuff. I think you ride him until he proves you wrong. This is no time to look out for guys feelings. We have a pennant to win, and McCarthy might be a big part of winning it.Felix Diaz had some pretty impressive numbers in Charlotte last year.

LaHerdiaGrande35
09-05-2005, 04:06 PM
The way I see it I think it would be better to get El Duque plenty of rest the rest of the season, so he's ready for some dominating stuff in October. There's no way the Sox should start McCarthy in the postseason over Hernandez. Would you like to see one of the most electric postseason pitchers of all-time or a rookie pitcher with no postseason experience? McCarthy is better fit to be a 2 inning, middle relief pitcher than El Duque anyway.

Ol' No. 2
09-05-2005, 04:11 PM
The way I see it I think it would be better to get El Duque plenty of rest the rest of the season, so he's ready for some dominating stuff in October. There's no way the Sox should start McCarthy in the postseason over Hernandez. Would you like to see one of the most electric postseason pitchers of all-time or a rookie pitcher with no postseason experience? McCarthy is better fit to be a 2 inning, middle relief pitcher than El Duque anyway.Hernandez is scheduled to start tomorrow and next Sunday. I'd start McCarthy on Sunday and skip Hernandez' turn. They're off on Monday and the regular rotation can pick up the next day with an extra day's rest.

Whitesox05
09-05-2005, 04:57 PM
This disappoints me. Thanks to MLB cramming the Labor Day game down our throats, the Sox have only one day off the rest of the regular season. Our pitchers have been accustomed to going on four games rest, not necessarily four days, and I'd love to see them get a little extra time off between starts.

I know Buehrle wasn't crazy about the six-man rotation, but I seem to remember him being in favor of last season's short-lived four-man experiment down the stretch. IIRC, that was something of a disaster (contributed to a Freddy arm injury too).


I am all for it! It would give our starters a little bit of a rest. They have thrown a lot of innings this year....why not give them a little rest? Sounds like just another stubborn move by Guillen.......

jabrch
09-05-2005, 05:04 PM
I have absolutely no problem with a 6 man rotation the rest of the way. But when it comes to the playoff rotation, McCarthy has no business in the conversation at this point in time.

Either Duque or Contreras go to middle relief and McCarthy doesn't make the roster. That's unfortunate - but that was the plan all along for this season - to not need to start McCarthy, and to bring him along slowly. Next year, however, he will surely be in the rotation as Contreras is a FA and should get decent starter's money somewhere. (I imagine we will offer him arbitration and get draft pick compensation for him as he probably wants a multi-year deal, not a 1 year arbitration award)

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 05:09 PM
I have absolutely no problem with a 6 man rotation the rest of the way. But when it comes to the playoff rotation, McCarthy has no business in the conversation at this point in time.

Either Duque or Contreras go to middle relief and McCarthy doesn't make the roster. That's unfortunate - but that was the plan all along for this season - to not need to start McCarthy, and to bring him along slowly. Next year, however, he will surely be in the rotation as Contreras is a FA and should get decent starter's money somewhere. (I imagine we will offer him arbitration and get draft pick compensation for him as he probably wants a multi-year deal, not a 1 year arbitration award)

Contreras is under contract next year. He has also been dominating the last 6 weeks.

KyWhiSoxFan
09-05-2005, 06:04 PM
For next year, clearly McCarthy is the fifth starter. El Duque will be one year older and even less likely to eat any innings or be effective over a long season. El Duque would be the odd man out in 2006, even if we could not get much for him in a trade. You can't keep McCarthy down on the farm after you've seen what he can do.

This year, though, El Duque is in the mix for the playoffs--either as a starter or long relief--because of his experience. That is why we got him. We could not give the ball to McCarthy and expect him to duplicate his success in the playoffs. He could, but that is taking too big of a chance in a short, five-game series. He needs more experience.

PaleHoseGeorge
09-05-2005, 06:07 PM
Such a problem... too many starters hitting their stride in September for the playoffs.

You think this might help our bullpen, too?

:cool:

Brian26
09-05-2005, 06:13 PM
I am all for it! It would give our starters a little bit of a rest. They have thrown a lot of innings this year....why not give them a little rest? Sounds like just another stubborn move by Guillen.......

Not necessarily. There are many factors involved here. I think Buehrle and Garland want the extra start or two to try to get as close to 20 wins as possible, even though they probably wouldn't admit this. I think the big five starters also want to stay as sharp as possible. Tinkering with the rotation is an interesting idea, but it could slightly backfire as much as it could help. Ultimately, you have to go with what your starters want to do.

Optipessimism
09-05-2005, 06:23 PM
Contreras is under contract next year. He has also been dominating the last 6 weeks.

Contreras, even in his bad starts with us this year, has made great strides since his Yankees days. I really think that his fear of attacking hitters is going away slowly and he is discovering how to dominate again, so I think he sticks with us next year and gives us much more than our money's worth of 6mil. And after 2006, I think this guy will be in line for a huge payday.

El Duque is my vote to either go into the pen or get traded. While he makes a great fifth starter, I think Brandon would too. Both El Duque with his health and McCarthy with his age are going to have bad outings, but I think Brandon has shown so far that he is ready for his shot to learn at the ML level.

I'd rather see El Duque traded because I think that a lot of teams would want this guy, even with his ERA and injury history, for the same reasons we want him. He's been a big game pitcher and has playoff experiece, and when you figure his salary he is a great value IMO as a fifth starter. I would imagine, in a market weak of SP's where guys like Esteban Loaiza are probably going to get more than they're worth, we could get something decent for Duque, especially from a NL team.

CYGarland20
09-05-2005, 08:02 PM
When Hernandez is on, he has the best stuff on the staff. I'd get him plenty of rest and let him start game one of the playoffs.I think Contreras has the best stuff IMO, but I wouldn't start him in game 1, I would most likely go w/ Garcia.........But as far as McCarthy is concerned, he HAS to pitch a few more games after what he's done in his last 2 starts, and I think he should definitely split starts w/ Hernandez so he can rest up for the playoffs.

YourWhatHurts
09-05-2005, 08:05 PM
I would rather see McCarthy out of the pen than El Duque.

i'd rather see McCarthy in the rotation in place of El Duque

Daver
09-05-2005, 08:05 PM
I think Contreras has the best stuff IMO, but I wouldn't start him in game 1, I would most likely go w/ Garcia.........But as far as McCarthy is concerned, he HAS to pitch a few more games after what he's done in his last 2 starts, and I think he should definitely split em w/ Hernandez so he can rest up for the playoffs.

Crapshoot, Hernandez has better control at any given time, which is why I say he has the best stuff. Contreas has a better fastball, and his forkball is unhittable, but he can't find the strikezone with enough consistency.

JB98
09-05-2005, 08:26 PM
Crapshoot, Hernandez has better control at any given time, which is why I say he has the best stuff. Contreas has a better fastball, and his forkball is unhittable, but he can't find the strikezone with enough consistency.

In his last five or six starts, he's been finding the zone with consistency. I think Jose has been as good as anyone on the staff since the All-Star break.

Mohoney
09-05-2005, 08:38 PM
I'm not a manager, or a general manager, and I don't play one on TV, but I would give McCarthy every other start for Hernandez, giving Hernandez ten days rest between starts, for the month of Sept. Orlando can be a dominating pitcher, you want him well rested for the playoffs.

I agree with this, because El Duque isn't really a guy that gets rusty too easily. He bounces back from injuries pretty well, and most of them are a lot longer than 10 days. He has gone months without seeing game action a few times in his career, and it didn't really affect him too much.

Give him 2, maybe 3 starts as tune-ups before the playoffs, couple those with some extra side sessions, and he should be fine.

jabrch
09-05-2005, 10:20 PM
Contreras is under contract next year. He has also been dominating the last 6 weeks.

Are you sure?

I thought he had 1 year left when we got him from the Yanks. I know we signed Duque to a 2 year deal, so he surely has one left.

ilsox7
09-05-2005, 10:34 PM
Are you sure?

I thought he had 1 year left when we got him from the Yanks. I know we signed Duque to a 2 year deal, so he surely has one left.

Yep. He is/was due $17 million over the 2005 and 2006 seasons.

A. Cavatica
09-06-2005, 06:05 PM
After yesterday, I say put El Duque on the 15-day DL for R&R. McCarthy's last two starts have been better than any game Orlando has pitched this year. Reevaluate the postseason rotation in 15 days.

About the nickname question: has anyone suggested Black Mac?

EMel9281
09-06-2005, 06:16 PM
I'm not a manager, or a general manager, and I don't play one on TV, but I would give McCarthy every other start for Hernandez, giving Hernandez ten days rest between starts, for the month of Sept. Orlando can be a dominating pitcher, you want him well rested for the playoffs.

Not to put my lips on anyone's proverbial behind...but, I 100% agree! :D:

Domeshot17
09-06-2005, 06:28 PM
I do not like the arguement that El Duque has been dominant in the playoffs, because the same seasons he had his best playoff performances were almost directly linked with the seasons he had the most success. I do not honestly believe 100% that we get to see an entirely new Orlando in the post season, although it would be nice.

Contreras seems to have learned something that the Horrid New York Coaching staff failed to teach him. Get ahead with the fastball, and then dominate the count when you are ahead with the forkball. Anyone think it is coincidence that the games he has dominated over the last 6 weeks his walks are way down? Opponents rarely beat Contreras, he usually beat himself. He doesnt walk 2 men then give up a bomb, now he gets people out, and the home runs are less painful solo shots. IMO, he has the best pure stuff on the team.

Freddy is the best overall pitcher, Jon (this season) has been the best at using what he has to get outs ( not many K's, but a lot of ground outs) and Buehlre is the smartest, using accuracy and brains to work the batters.

BMAC will be in the rotation next year. The Reds, The Yankees and many other teams ( the mets?) will be looking for SP in the offseason, and it is a thin, very thin Market.

MisterB
09-06-2005, 06:39 PM
After yesterday, I say put El Duque on the 15-day DL for R&R. McCarthy's last two starts have been better than any game Orlando has pitched this year. Reevaluate the postseason rotation in 15 days.

About the nickname question: has anyone suggested Black Mac?

Um...since the rosters have expanded there's no point DL'ing him, especially since 1) he isn't actually injured and 2) anyone you'd replace him with is already on the active roster. :?:

A. Cavatica
09-06-2005, 07:30 PM
Um...since the rosters have expanded there's no point DL'ing him, especially since 1) he isn't actually injured and 2) anyone you'd replace him with is already on the active roster. :?:

Good point. :redface: But the DL idea was just code for 'give him two weeks of rest and see if Brandon can be consistent'.

Ol' No. 2
09-06-2005, 10:29 PM
Good point. :redface: But the DL idea was just code for 'give him two weeks of rest and see if Brandon can be consistent'.Here's where I repeat my earlier suggestion, which is a variation on Daver's idea. He's due up again on Sunday. Skip him and give McCarthy the start. They have an off-day the next day, so they can resume the normal rotation on Tuesday. Everyone gets one extra day of rest and Hernandez gets 10 days rest before he'd be due up again the following Saturday.

The only thing that makes me suspicious is that Offman suggested it on the post-game. There MUST be something wrong with it if Offman thinks it's a good idea.:?:

OzzieBall2004
09-07-2005, 12:07 AM
Our starters have averaged 6 and 2/3rds innings per start. They probably pitch into the seventh more than they don't.

I think McCarthy should serve as a stop gap between whenever our starter on that particular day runs out of gas (El Duque most notably, and those days when everyone else doesn't have their best stuff), and the rest of the bullpen for the 7th/8th/9th. The way things have gone so far this year, that job would put you at 54 IP over a full season.

The ideal way for this to go over would be for El Duque to get the yank after 4 against LAAnaheim down 1-4, and then McCarthy come on and shut down our potential playoff opponent until the 7th, when he turns it over to the bullpen and we come back to win 6-4.
__________________________________________________ ____

Seriously though, they'll have to take a strong look at dropping El Duque if he can't get it done on Sunday. He's had the same problem all year, and he did the same thing in game 4 of the ALCS last year. He runs...out.....of.....gas.

Optipessimism
09-07-2005, 12:24 AM
Our starters have averaged 6 and 2/3rds innings per start. They probably pitch into the seventh more than they don't.

I think McCarthy should serve as a stop gap between whenever our starter on that particular day runs out of gas (El Duque most notably, and those days when everyone else doesn't have their best stuff), and the rest of the bullpen for the 7th/8th/9th. The way things have gone so far this year, that job would put you at 54 IP over a full season.

The ideal way for this to go over would be for El Duque to get the yank after 4 against LAAnaheim down 1-4, and then McCarthy come on and shut down our potential playoff opponent until the 7th, when he turns it over to the bullpen and we come back to win 6-4.
__________________________________________________ ____

Seriously though, they'll have to take a strong look at dropping El Duque if he can't get it done on Sunday. He's had the same problem all year, and he did the same thing in game 4 of the ALCS last year. He runs...out.....of.....gas.

Besides his age and health, I just don't care much for El Duque. Even when he performs well he shows the opposing hitters lots of pitches by constantly going 2-2, 3-2 before getting an out. He also picks around the strikezone a lot, whereas Brandon attacks hitters. If it were me, Brandon would take his spot in the rotation and El Duque would go into the pen in preparation for the playoffs. Even if Brandon fared poorly, we would still make the playoffs with the top 4 we have considering LAAA is the only team we play outside of our division for the remainder of the season, and everyone knows we have dominated our division.

The worst case scenario would be that KW and Ozzie see that McCarthy needs to start next year in AAA again and KW has to either get another SP or stay with El Duque next year. The best case scenario is McCarthy steps up big time and earns a spot in the rotation next year as well as earns himself a spot on the playoff roster.