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View Full Version : Guillen Looks At 6 Man Rotation


Wsoxmike59
09-01-2005, 08:55 AM
From this morning's Sun-Times, and I whole heartedly agree with this move, give the Big 4 a little extra rest down the stretch and to the final days of the regular season before the Playoffs start.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug01.html

ARLINGTON, Texas -- The White Sox' coaching staff has started to map out a six-man rotation plan for the final month, and the starters don't seem to mind the idea of a little extra rest.

''We're thinking about it, but I don't know for sure how we'll react, how those guys with one more day off will pitch,'' manager Ozzie Guillen said

ChiSoxGirl
09-01-2005, 09:00 AM
From this morning's Sun-Times, and I whole heartedly agree with this move, give the Big 4 a little extra rest down the stretch and to the final days of the regular season before the Playoffs start.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/sox/cst-spt-doug01.html

ARLINGTON, Texas -- The White Sox' coaching staff has started to map out a six-man rotation plan for the final month, and the starters don't seem to mind the idea of a little extra rest.

''We're thinking about it, but I don't know for sure how we'll react, how those guys with one more day off will pitch,'' manager Ozzie Guillen said

This is one of the greatest ideas Guillen and the organization have had all season. As it stands today, Garland has pitched 177 1/3 innings, Garcia has gone 187 1/3, Buehrle has gone 196 2/3, and Contreras has gone 159 1/3 (not bad in comparison to his teammates). I don't know their career highs in innings pitched, but I'd have to think that they're approaching them.

Not only will it give guys rest so they're fresh for the stretch drive and into October, but it gives McCarthy a chance to continue to shine in the majors. Seems like a win-win situation to me! :smile:

SOX ADDICT '73
09-01-2005, 09:36 AM
Not only will it give guys rest so they're fresh for the stretch drive and into October, but it gives McCarthy a chance to continue to shine in the majors. Seems like a win-win situation to me! :smile:
Especially since McCarthy's the only one that's been worth a damn in the last few games! I wasn't a Brandon supporter after his earlier call-up, but without his performance in game 2 of the Texas doubleheader, the Dark Clouds would be having an even bigger field day than they already are.

wdelaney72
09-01-2005, 09:39 AM
Especially since McCarthy's the only one that's been worth a damn in the last few games!

Exactly. I don't know what's with Mark and Jon, but they have not pitched well lately. If rest helps them return to form, I'm all for it.

harwar
09-01-2005, 09:46 AM
These guys would never admit it(they may not even know it)but they are tired.
Anyway you can get them some extra rest is great.
Losing a day off in sept.doesn't help any.

fledgedrallycap
09-01-2005, 09:50 AM
The Texas series was ugly with exception of McCarthy. Garland got batted around, but I recall Ed and John stating heading into the game Garland held a 2.3 ERA in the 2nd half. He might not be getting wins, but to say Garland has not pitched well since the all-start break is inaccurate. In fact, with the exception of Buerles; I would say the Cubans (epecially Contraras) and Freddy have pitched exceptionally well.

Part of the game is the occasional bad outing from a starter, you live with it and hope the offense carries you that night.

August was a disappointing month, but I can't point my finger and any member(s) of the pitching staff.

With that said, I think going to a 6-man rotation is a good move that provides rest and allows flexibility in setting the rotation for the playoffs.

BeviBall!
09-01-2005, 09:55 AM
This idea is the stupidest thing I've seen this year. Remember when the Royals tried this in 2003? Didn't work out too well.

I thought we had structured our rotation so the Big 3 could face the Central as many times as possible? Adding in McCarthy is a huge mistake and takes away that idea. We haven't won the Central yet!

Deuce
09-01-2005, 09:58 AM
Wow! I was expecting the usual "these guys should play everyday... I would if I could make that much money to play a game" responces. Nice to see level heads prevail for once.


:elduque: :contreras: :burly :jon :garcia:

"We agree!"

Paulwny
09-01-2005, 10:01 AM
These guys would never admit it(they may not even know it)but they are tired.
Anyway you can get them some extra rest is great.
Losing a day off in sept.doesn't help any.

Yep, Cooper may have told ozzie that the arms are beginning to look tired. We'll see how it all pans out.

ChiSoxlukes
09-01-2005, 10:15 AM
I am all for getting these guys some extra rest. One question to think about though: How will their arms react in the playoffs if they have to pitch on 4 or maybe even 3 days rest? Just something to ponder.

GAsoxfan
09-01-2005, 10:35 AM
I don't know their career highs in innings pitched, but I'd have to think that they're approaching them.



Career highs:
Buehrle - 245.1 in 2004 (he's over 220 IP every year since becoming a full time starter)
Garland - 217 in 2004 (only year over 200 IP)
Garcia - 238.2 in 2001 (has over 200 IP for every year since '99 except for '00)
Contreras - 170.1 in 2004 (pitched only 71 innings in 2003)
Hernandez - 214.1 in 1999 (only year w/ 200+ IP, hasn't had more than 150 IP since 2000)

Tekijawa
09-01-2005, 10:42 AM
This idea is the stupidest thing I've seen this year. Remember when the Royals tried this in 2003? Didn't work out too well.

Did you seriously just compair this staff and team to the 2003 Royals?

I proposed this Idea yesterday, So I can only assume that's where Ozzie got it, but I'm completely for it!

Randar68
09-01-2005, 10:51 AM
These guys would never admit it(they may not even know it)but they are tired.

Yep, they're also probably tired from having to go out on the mound under the pressure that giving up any runs is likely to result in a loss. How many times has Garland had win #17 pissed away by the offense not showing up or the bullpen dumping it?

daveeym
09-01-2005, 11:11 AM
I'm still in favor of skipping each guy once and throwing Mac out there rather than a full six man rotation from here on out.

wdelaney72
09-01-2005, 11:37 AM
The Texas series was ugly with exception of McCarthy. Garland got batted around, but I recall Ed and John stating heading into the game Garland held a 2.3 ERA in the 2nd half. He might not be getting wins, but to say Garland has not pitched well since the all-start break is inaccurate. In fact, with the exception of Buerles; I would say the Cubans (epecially Contraras) and Freddy have pitched exceptionally well.

Part of the game is the occasional bad outing from a starter, you live with it and hope the offense carries you that night.

August was a disappointing month, but I can't point my finger and any member(s) of the pitching staff.

With that said, I think going to a 6-man rotation is a good move that provides rest and allows flexibility in setting the rotation for the playoffs.

After looking at the stats, you are correct.

BeviBall!
09-01-2005, 11:37 AM
Did you seriously just compair this staff and team to the 2003 Royals?

I proposed this Idea yesterday, So I can only assume that's where Ozzie got it, but I'm completely for it!

I don't know... did I? The Royals tried going to a 6-man rotation in August of 2003 and the wheels fell off their magical season. These guys are used to going every fifth day. Why tamper with it?

wdelaney72
09-01-2005, 11:41 AM
The Texas series was ugly with exception of McCarthy. Garland got batted around, but I recall Ed and John stating heading into the game Garland held a 2.3 ERA in the 2nd half. He might not be getting wins, but to say Garland has not pitched well since the all-start break is inaccurate. In fact, with the exception of Buerles; I would say the Cubans (epecially Contraras) and Freddy have pitched exceptionally well.

Part of the game is the occasional bad outing from a starter, you live with it and hope the offense carries you that night.

August was a disappointing month, but I can't point my finger and any member(s) of the pitching staff.

With that said, I think going to a 6-man rotation is a good move that provides rest and allows flexibility in setting the rotation for the playoffs.

After looking at the numbers, you are correct. The fact that our starters haven't gotten wins is a bit misleading. Yes, each pitcher has had one or 2 bad outings, but overall, they've pitched well. It's just unfortunate, that on the games they've pitched well, the offense fell asleep.

ChiSoxGirl
09-01-2005, 11:43 AM
Career highs:
Buehrle - 245.1 in 2004 (he's over 220 IP every year since becoming a full time starter)
Garland - 217 in 2004 (only year over 200 IP)
Garcia - 238.2 in 2001 (has over 200 IP for every year since '99 except for '00)
Contreras - 170.1 in 2004 (pitched only 71 innings in 2003)
Hernandez - 214.1 in 1999 (only year w/ 200+ IP, hasn't had more than 150 IP since 2000)

Thanks for the stats. I'm at work and my Media Guide is at home, so I appreciate the help. :smile:

eshunn2001
09-01-2005, 12:01 PM
I think if these guys need rest, We should just have McCarty Sub for 1 each Time through the rotaion our next 5 times through. Like This week Have Mcarthy Takes Buehrles place in the rotation. Next time through Take Garlands. Right on down the line. And that way each of our pitchers gets 10 days rest and They should be refreshed by then. Just a thought.

Ol' No. 2
09-01-2005, 12:16 PM
Career highs:
Buehrle - 245.1 in 2004 (he's over 220 IP every year since becoming a full time starter)
Garland - 217 in 2004 (only year over 200 IP)
Garcia - 238.2 in 2001 (has over 200 IP for every year since '99 except for '00)
Contreras - 170.1 in 2004 (pitched only 71 innings in 2003)
Hernandez - 214.1 in 1999 (only year w/ 200+ IP, hasn't had more than 150 IP since 2000)IP so far this year:

Buehrle: 196.2
Garland: 177.1
Garcia: 187.1
Contreras: 159.1
Hernandez: 113.1

With 31 games remaining, each pitcher would get 6 more starts, adding in the neighborhood of 40 more IP. On top of that, we'll want the 4 playoff starters to throw another 30 or so innings of playoff baseball. I, for one, would rather not have Buehrle out there in the WS with 270 innings of wear on his arm.

A 6-man rotation reduces each guy's starts by only one game, so it's not a huge difference, but with only one day off in September, every little bit helps.

ShoelessJoeS
09-01-2005, 12:23 PM
I am all for this idea, unless BMac's last outing proves to be a fluke, but let's hope for the best. This also gives our starters an extra day off which will prove to be useful considering the Sox only have like 2 days off for the rest of the year. Great move Oz!

kobo
09-01-2005, 12:37 PM
I think it's a good idea, especially with only having 1 day off this month. Give the guys a little extra rest so they are ready for the playoffs. We pitched well last month, it was the offense and defense that let us down at times. Bmac's performance in Texas reminded me of how he pitched in spring training, I hope he can pitch relatively the same on Monday, that game will determine if we go to the 6 man rotation or not.

SouthSide_HitMen
09-01-2005, 12:41 PM
As with most decisions Ozzie has made this season, this is what I wanted them to do. I am glad McCarthy bounced back from his rough Major League start back in Charlotte and had the kind of performance in Texas to give the team the confidence to use him in September in games which may be meaningful.

Iwritecode
09-01-2005, 12:46 PM
I don't know... did I? The Royals tried going to a 6-man rotation in August of 2003 and the wheels fell off their magical season.

The wheels fell off their "magical" season in May. They started out the season with that huge fluke 9 - 0 record and then really didn't do much after that. I doubt going to a 6-man rotation had much, if anything, to do with it.

These guys are used to going every fifth day. Why tamper with it?

Even Burly mentioned that with all the off-days during the season it's not all that unusual to get an extra day of rest. Considering they only have 1 the entire month of September, it can't hurt to try it.

TDog
09-01-2005, 12:53 PM
I am all for this idea, unless BMac's last outing proves to be a fluke, but let's hope for the best. This also gives our starters an extra day off which will prove to be useful considering the Sox only have like 2 days off for the rest of the year. Great move Oz!

Just imaging how well BMac would pitch in a park where the opposition ISN'T stealing his signs.

Going into September with a seven-game lead, people talk about collapse. I've spent most of my life watching the Sox lose. The possibility of collapse, while I won't obsess over it, is not lost on me. Cubs fans have pulled out their dark memories of 1969, like George Dukakis holding a picture of the Tribune's "Dewey defeats Truman" headline, as they high-five each other with each new Sox loss.

I don't believe the Cubs collapse (they beat the Mets at Wrigley the last day of the season to finish eight games out) had anything to do with changing the rotation, but in those days teams basically went with four starters. People like to blame day baseball and the heat wearing down Jenkins, Holtzman, Hands and Dick Selma or Rich Nye or whoever else was starting when they couldn't come up with a better idea. The Cubs only had three good starters, leaving them with a season-long fourth-starter problem. I don't think they called up a fifth ineffective starter to effect the complete collapse in September.

I have read, though, that on the 1964 Phillies, manager Gene Mauch drastically pared his rotation at season's end because he had only two effective pitchers. That obviously didn't work, as the more they pitched the less effective they became.

Whatever Ozzie does, if things don't work out, he'll get blamed for not doing something else.

chisox06
09-01-2005, 12:54 PM
I don't know... did I? The Royals tried going to a 6-man rotation in August of 2003 and the wheels fell off their magical season. These guys are used to going every fifth day. Why tamper with it?

Although I dont have the numbers, considering our bullpen has the least numbers of innings pitched thats means our starters have probably pitched a lot more of innings at this point of the year than the royals starters in 2003. I would hate to have these guys run out of gas, and as the numbers indicated earlier we have 2 starters reaching 200 innings pitched and its September 1st. PLUS we have McCarthy that can fill in and I hope give us a chance to win.

How nice is it to have the ability to have a 6 man rotation when a year ago we couldn't find 5? I say we have the luxury of 6 guys that can give us a chance to win, lets use it. Then our horses are ready for the playoffs.

Iwritecode
09-01-2005, 12:55 PM
Whatever Ozzie does, if things don't work out, he'll get blamed for not doing something else.

That's really a great quote. :D:

HotelWhiteSox
09-01-2005, 01:44 PM
FWIW, I think Farmer was talking about this, either him or someone on the radio pre/post shows, it was brought up, but it was basically denied because some of the pitchers weren't comfortable breaking out of their normal routines and different rest patterns.

It's weird, more rest usually leads to bad outings, but some pitchers have to spot start on 4 days rest and throw gems.

Ol' No. 2
09-01-2005, 02:08 PM
FWIW, I think Farmer was talking about this, either him or someone on the radio pre/post shows, it was brought up, but it was basically denied because some of the pitchers weren't comfortable breaking out of their normal routines and different rest patterns.

It's weird, more rest usually leads to bad outings, but some pitchers have to spot start on 4 days rest and throw gems.This is a myth. I recall reading a study (I'll try to find the source) that compared pitchers throwing on 3, 4 and 5 days rest. The pitchers working on 4 days rest did much better than those on short rest. But pitchers working on an extra day's rest also did better than those on normal rest, although the difference wasn't as large as between 3 and 4 days rest. I'm sure there's some point beyond which more rest hurts, but generally speaking, rest is good.

Brian26
09-01-2005, 02:13 PM
I'm sure there's some point beyond which more rest hurts, but generally speaking, rest is good.

Unless you're a breaking ball pitcher. Sinker-ballers have always claimed they have crisper "stuff" when their arms are a little tired.

Ol' No. 2
09-01-2005, 02:19 PM
Unless you're a breaking ball pitcher. Sinker-ballers have always claimed they have crisper "stuff" when their arms are a little tired.That's true. What's more, they looked at the average over a large population, but it doesn't preclude the possibility that some individuals might not do worse with an extra day's rest. Such is the difficulty with using averages.