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czalgosz
12-01-2001, 05:23 PM
According to this, the Sox got the third most offensive production in the AL out of their left-fielders (mainly Lee) behind only Toronto (who got a monster season out of Shannon Stewart that noone noticed) and Boston (did Manny play left for a while, or what?)

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2001/1129/1286791.html

If the Sox trade Lee, they better get good value for him. Really, Carlos didn't do a bad job this season. His batting average was off, but it's been shown time and time again that batting average is a terrible indication of how productive you are at the plate. Other than that, his numbers were only slightly off from his 2000 numbers, and almost identical to his '99 numbers. He's still as good a hitter as he's always been.

He's always been streaky, he's always been undisciplined. That's something we'll have to put up with in Carlos Lee. He's only about 25 or so. Can we spare him? If Thomas comes back, sure. Of course, since Lee makes an ideal # 7 hitter, he's even more valuable with Thomas in the lineup than without.

FarWestChicago
12-01-2001, 05:28 PM
It's nice to see somebody say something positive about Caballo. That doesn't happen too often around here.

Spiff
12-01-2001, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
It's nice to see somebody say something positive about Caballo. That doesn't happen too often around here.

Everyone knows where I stand.

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Jjav829
12-01-2001, 05:55 PM
I thought I was the only one around here that liked Carlos. :)

I don't want to see him traded. His numbers were down last year but if you go by that we might as well get rid of him, Manos, Durham, and pretty much everyone other than Konerko and Maggs. (not including pitchers)

Jerry_Manuel
12-01-2001, 05:57 PM
I'm an idiot.

KempersRS
12-01-2001, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I must have been sleeping when you announced you position on Carlos Lee. What is it?

Jer, the arrow is pointing down to his sig where it says "Keep Lee"

Jerry_Manuel
12-01-2001, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by KempersRS
Jer, the arrow is pointing down to his sig where it says "Keep Lee"

Thanks for the help Kempers you really are better then me. :D:

danman31
12-01-2001, 09:20 PM
Looking at the numbers the Sox are 3rd at 2nd base. That is reason enough not to trade him like some want to do.

And how about those Charlotte White Sox? :)

RedPinStripes
12-01-2001, 10:09 PM
I'd like to see Lee traded for a good pitcher. As much as I hate the gut, what about Jeff Weaver?

O boy. That could piss a few people off.


I'd rather see the sox build on a good defensive outfield. Rowand, Singleton, and Maggs with Simmons as a fourth of.

Does that sound wrong?

bringbackrobin
12-01-2001, 11:02 PM
Carlos Lee is 25 years old and could bust out with a great offensive season any time now. Why trade him when his value is low? Buy low, sell high.

On the other hand, the ESPN article only ranked players based on their OPS. OPS overstates Carlos Lee's value somewhat (considering his relatively high slugging percentage). Moreover, the American League had very few productive left-fielders this season. The Sox should keep Carlos Lee, but don't get carried away with this third best left fielder stuff.

GASHWOUND
12-01-2001, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
It's nice to see somebody say something positive about Caballo. That doesn't happen too often around here.

I always been a fan of Lee. Jeez, their isn't a player on the Sox I'm not a fan of to think of it..I even thught Embree was good! Now does that sound like a stick in the mud? :smile:

CLR01
12-01-2001, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by ComiskeyBum
I'd rather see the sox build on a good defensive outfield. Rowand, Singleton, and Maggs with Simmons as a fourth of.


I like this guy can we make him webmaster?

OfficerKarkovice
12-02-2001, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Jjav829
I thought I was the only one around here that liked Carlos. :)

I don't want to see him traded. His numbers were down last year but if you go by that we might as well get rid of him, Manos, Durham, and pretty much everyone other than Konerko and Maggs. (not including pitchers)

I like Carlos but he is a DH and not a LF...hopefully he can turn things around in the field over the offseason because he has a chance to become one of the leagues premier power hitters.

Spiff
12-02-2001, 11:26 AM
Originally posted by OfficerKarkovice


I like Carlos but he is a DH and not a LF...hopefully he can turn things around in the field over the offseason because he has a chance to become one of the leagues premier power hitters.

Didn't Lee start out playing third?

OfficerKarkovice
12-02-2001, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00


Didn't Lee start out playing third?

I believe so yes.

Jerry_Manuel
12-02-2001, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Wh1teSox00
Didn't Lee start out playing third?


Yes he did.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-02-2001, 12:42 PM
For the first three months of the season, the only three that mattered, Carlos Lee was the most consistent hitter on the 2001 Sox.

Yet somehow, Royce Clayton has more support around here than Carlos. Figure that one out.

I thought the idea was to win a championship. Silly me.

Jerry_Manuel
12-02-2001, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the first three months of the season, the only three that mattered, Carlos Lee was the most consistent hitter on the 2001 Sox.

Yet somehow, Royce Clayton has more support around here than Carlos. Figure that one out.

I thought the idea was to win a championship. Silly me.

The people who want Lee traded don't like his defense. They also see how good Rowand looked last year and want to see more of him. But they know with Borchard coming up soon, Rowand would be the odd man out.

FarWestChicago
12-02-2001, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the first three months of the season, the only three that mattered, Carlos Lee was the most consistent hitter on the 2001 Sox.

Yet somehow, Royce Clayton has more support around here than Carlos. Figure that one out.I don't get it either.

PaleHoseGeorge
12-02-2001, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel
The people who want Lee traded don't like his defense. They also see how good Rowand looked last year and want to see more of him. But they know with Borchard coming up soon, Rowand would be the odd man out.

He looked good? Apparently not to his teammates. They nicknamed him "Robocop" for his fielding technique.

He is memorable for running into walls, however. :D:

Paulwny
12-02-2001, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
I don't get it either.

Neither do I

Jerry_Manuel
12-02-2001, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
Neither do I

Let me take another crack at this. People think Carlos Lee is a horrible outfielder, and that he costs the team runs and games. I've heard people say they feel his bat can be replaced. Not sure if this explanation is any clearer then my last attempt. Bottom line is that he is horrible outfielder in their (people who want Lee gone) eyes. I'm sure Daver who is in the trade-Lee camp can give a better explanation then I.

Paulwny
12-02-2001, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Let me take another crack at this. People think Carlos Lee is a horrible outfielder, and that he costs the team runs and games. I've heard people say they feel his bat can be replaced. Not sure if this explanation is any clearer then my last attempt. Bottom line is that he is horrible outfielder in their (people who want Lee gone) eyes. I'm sure Daver who is in the trade-Lee camp can give a better explanation then I.

JM, many of the people who want Lee traded because of his fielding are the same people who want Jose at ss. Why are Jose's errors at ss less important then Lee's? That's what I don't understand.

kermittheefrog
12-02-2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Let me take another crack at this. People think Carlos Lee is a horrible outfielder, and that he costs the team runs and games. I've heard people say they feel his bat can be replaced. Not sure if this explanation is any clearer then my last attempt. Bottom line is that he is horrible outfielder in their (people who want Lee gone) eyes. I'm sure Daver who is in the trade-Lee camp can give a better explanation then I.

Am I the only one who thinks that there are a lot more shortstops who can play like Clayton than guys who can hit like Carlos?

Jerry_Manuel
12-02-2001, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny
JM, many of the people who want Lee traded because of his fielding are the same people who want Jose at ss. Why are Jose's errors at ss less important then Lee's? That's what I don't understand.

Either do I, perhaps Daver can explain it to you.

FarWestChicago
12-02-2001, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Am I the only one who thinks that there are a lot more shortstops who can play like Clayton than guys who can hit like Carlos? No, you are not the only one.

MarqSox
12-02-2001, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


JM, many of the people who want Lee traded because of his fielding are the same people who want Jose at ss. Why are Jose's errors at ss less important then Lee's? That's what I don't understand.

Gotta disagree with ya there. I want Valentin at SS, and I also want Lee in the outfield. It worked pretty good in 2000, didn't it? Besides, as is my argument for Jose, how many times has Lee actually cost the team because of his fielding? A few times, yes, but it's outweighed greatly by the times he's saved them at the plate. He's not horrible out there, seriously. He'll never win a Gold Glove, but he's 10 steps up from Albert Belle. Lee's only going to get better ... giving up on him now would be foolish.

kermittheefrog
12-03-2001, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Paulwny


JM, many of the people who want Lee traded because of his fielding are the same people who want Jose at ss. Why are Jose's errors at ss less important then Lee's? That's what I don't understand.

Errors don't mean your a bad fielder, errors mean you have a bad relationship with the official scorer. Jose isn't a bad defensive shortstop because he has very good range and simply gets to more balls than most shortstops so he can afford to screw more up.

Carlos on the other hand sucks in left. He should be a DH or something, I like him as a hitter he's just not playing the right position.

FarWestChicago
12-03-2001, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Errors don't mean your a bad fielder, errors mean you have a bad relationship with the official scorer.:ray :hitless

We get along great with the official scorer!

Mathew
12-03-2001, 02:23 AM
Well we take these games very seriously and when an error or blown save costs us a game it sticks out in our mind. We expect to win every game and therefore when a player wins us games they slip though the memory cracks. Lee is a good ballplayer, so is Valentin, Foulke and Durham. They didn't do it last year so a strong case can be made against any of them. Call me a bleeding heart but I think they will all play at the highest level next year and we will go 173-0 next year.

Paulwny
12-03-2001, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by MarqSox


Gotta disagree with ya there. I want Valentin at SS, and I also want Lee in the outfield. It worked pretty good in 2000, didn't it? Besides, as is my argument for Jose, how many times has Lee actually cost the team because of his fielding? A few times, yes, but it's outweighed greatly by the times he's saved them at the plate. He's not horrible out there, seriously. He'll never win a Gold Glove, but he's 10 steps up from Albert Belle. Lee's only going to get better ... giving up on him now would be foolish.

I agree with you., I also want Lee in left. My post concerns people who want Lee traded because of his "D" but still want Jose at ss regardless of his "D".

Kilroy
12-03-2001, 08:16 AM
Originally posted by PaleHoseGeorge
For the first three months of the season, the only three that mattered, Carlos Lee was the most consistent hitter on the 2001 Sox.

Yet somehow, Royce Clayton has more support around here than Carlos. Figure that one out.

I thought the idea was to win a championship. Silly me.


I want Lee in left, myself. But Carlos had a lengthy bad stretch this past year where he wasn't hitting anything at all. At the same time, he made put some pretty poor left-field play on display high-lighted by some ham-handed errors on some routine plays. Team not good + Lee not hitting + Lee playing bad in field = Trade Lee.

But I disagree with this idea that only the first three months of the season mattered. If that were true, the Cubs and the M's would have been crowned league champions.

FarWestChicago
12-03-2001, 11:21 AM
Originally posted by Kilroy
But I disagree with this idea that only the first three months of the season mattered. If that were true, the Cubs and the M's would have been crowned league champions. Yeah, but they sunk us. We fell into to big of a hole to get out of with the team we had.

Kilroy
12-03-2001, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
Yeah, but they sunk us. We fell into to big of a hole to get out of with the team we had.

Personally, I think it would have been worse for us fans had they had the season the Twins or Cubs had. I'd much rather start off bad and get better than start off great and choke.

FarWestChicago
12-03-2001, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Personally, I think it would have been worse for us fans had they had the season the Twins or Cubs had. I'd much rather start off bad and get better than start off great and choke. I don't know. It was pretty frustrating in April and May. I can see where you are coming from on sucking and climbing back into it. But, what's wrong with not-sucking and being in it the whole way? :smile:

bringbackrobin
12-03-2001, 03:35 PM
Three cheers for not-sucking!

doublem23
12-03-2001, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by bringbackrobin
Three cheers for not-sucking!

:gulp: :gulp: :gulp:

That should suffice.

kermittheefrog
12-03-2001, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Paulwny


I agree with you., I also want Lee in left. My post concerns people who want Lee traded because of his "D" but still want Jose at ss regardless of his "D".

The situations aren't exactly the same. Jose is a great hitter compared to other shortstops, Carlos is a mediocre maybe below average hitter compared to other leftfielders. So with Carlos he's not really above average on any front while Jose can at least outhit any SS not named Alex, Derek or Nomar.

doublem23
12-03-2001, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
Jose can at least outhit any SS not named Alex, Derek or Nomar.

:hitless
I don't see Royce in that sentence anywhere.

guillen4life13
12-04-2001, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
:ray :hitless

We get along great with the official scorer!

Dude! Royce Clayton almost won the Gold Glove in 2001, and he was second to perhaps the best defensive shortstop in the history of baseball: Omar Vizquel. I understand the Ray Durham part of that, but not the Rolls Royce part.

As for Lee:

He had better get his defensive act together.
But, I also honestly think that he deserved a birth at the All Star game last year. He hit some .313 for the first half. That's pretty impressive.
If he can figure out a way to sustain that average, he will be a year in, year out all-star, as Maggs has become.

ma-gaga
12-04-2001, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
The situations aren't exactly the same. Jose is a great hitter compared to other shortstops, Carlos is a mediocre maybe below average hitter compared to other leftfielders. So with Carlos he's not really above average on any front while Jose can at least outhit any SS not named Alex, Derek or Nomar.

Guzman had a better year than Jose did, Derek and Nomar had horrible seasons, and Alex is in a league all to himself. No real point, just a couple of observations.

:) :gulp:

kermittheefrog
12-04-2001, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by ma-gaga


Guzman had a better year than Jose did, Derek and Nomar had horrible seasons, and Alex is in a league all to himself. No real point, just a couple of observations.

:) :gulp:

If Guzman had a better year, it's damn close.

Jose 258 BA 336 OBP 509 SLG 74 R 68 RBI 50 BB 124 G
Guzman 302 BA 337 OBP 477 SLG 80 R 51 RBI 21 BB 118 G

I'd still rather have Jose. As for Jeter, how do you see him having a horrible season? It's not as good as his last three years but it's still a phenominal season. The only hitter on our team who had a better season was Maggs.

This Jose battle is never gonna end, is it? I mean there is always the fact that we won more games when Jose was the everyday SS than we did wih Royce in that job.

FarWestChicago
12-04-2001, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Dude! Royce Clayton almost won the Gold Glove in 2001, and he was second to perhaps the best defensive shortstop in the history of baseball: Omar Vizquel. I understand the Ray Durham part of that, but not the Rolls Royce part.:hitless

It's easy to have a great fielding percentage when the scorer never gives you an error for misplays. My buddy Ray figured that one out, too.

kermittheefrog
12-04-2001, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by FarWestChicago
:hitless

It's easy to have a great fielding percentage when the scorer never gives you an error for misplays. My buddy Ray figured that one out, too.

Same goes for if you just give up on grounders, not hard to have a great FP if you don't have any range.

FarWestChicago
12-04-2001, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog


Same goes for if you just give up on grounders, not hard to have a great FP if you don't have any range. Good point, Kermit.

KempersRS
12-04-2001, 06:00 PM
It may not sound like solid baseball knowledge, but I am sorry...Offense is just more important than defense any way you slice it. Manos shoulda been the shortstop last year no matter how Royce played in the field.

Kilroy
12-04-2001, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
This Jose battle is never gonna end, is it? I mean there is always the fact that we won more games when Jose was the everyday SS than we did wih Royce in that job.

Frank Thomas in the line-up every day had nothing to do with that winning, right? Not that I think Royce is better or anything, but there's too many variables involved to make a blanket statement like that.

Paulwny
12-04-2001, 06:45 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Frank Thomas in the line-up every day had nothing to do with that winning, right? Not that I think Royce is better or anything, but there's too many variables involved to make a blanket statement like that.

Plus an injury free staff in 2000

doublem23
12-04-2001, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
Dude! Royce Clayton almost won the Gold Glove in 2001, and he was second to perhaps the best defensive shortstop in the history of baseball: Omar Vizquel. I understand the Ray Durham part of that, but not the Rolls Royce part.

The day Royce Clayton wins a Gold Glove, I'll run across Time Square nude...

He is not the defensive guru he is known to be. PHG will tell this better than I will, but Royce has bad range and a puss-arm... Valentin gets to balls Royce couldn't touch with a ten-foot pole and has a monster arm...

That, and Royce can't turn a double play, something that is important for shrotstops...

bigzeke
12-07-2001, 12:46 AM
the sox have a history of trading one player that can play for 3 that can't. why should lee be any different.?trade him to the dodgers, at least they have a chance to make it to the series. he will never get there with the sox.

RedPinStripes
12-07-2001, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by bigzeke
the sox have a history of trading one player that can play for 3 that can't. why should lee be any different.?trade him to the dodgers, at least they have a chance to make it to the series. he will never get there with the sox.

Carlos Lee in LF in the series. LOL! That would be something to see. To hell with him getting to the series with the Dodgers. If he don't get there with the Sox, I don't care if he ever goes to the series at all.

guillen4life13
12-10-2001, 05:41 PM
Royce made some pretty good plays in the field last year. And his arm isn't as bad as everyone says it is. The thing about Jose, is that his arm may be too strong. Sometimes, he just overthrows, and by a long shot (ever heard of Chuck Knoblauch?).

Now. Royce isn't as good in the clutch, but he's not bad. Jose is probably the best clutch hitter on the Sox.

I would want Jose in there because of his bat, and his effect on the chemistry. Royce is a whiner. Jose just gets his point across. He doesn't make a big deal out of being put out of position or anything like that. He's really classy.

I'm just trying to say that you guys are exaggerating Royce. He's not as bad as you say.

He did save a couple of games last year also (Cleveland, and I believe he tripled, and Graffanino knocked him in that one time, i think when KC was at Comiskey).

Lets stay with Jose for now. If he has trouble, we can always trade for another ss during the season.

maybe they can get Neifi Perez, who's an average hitter, and an exceptional fielder.

I'd love Rey Sanchez in there also.

But I'd rather have Valentin.



Maybe they can get my man Omar!

He's one of the best hitting shortstops during an average year, and he's the best fielding shortstop currently, and possibly the best ever! And his down year means he may be worth less money.

Think about it. That would be great. He's also a clubhouse leader, and is really classy.

mrwag
12-10-2001, 08:51 PM
I have to look back to the post-season of 2000 to make up my mind about who the big players were. The whole team was in a slump by then, but only 2 players did anything in that series - Durham and Valentin. These guys played off each other and had something that Clayton and Durham don't have -- CHEMISTRY. Let's put the starting lineup back to what it was in 2000, get Frank healthy, let Crede play third, and get the pitchers strong again. 2000 was NOT a fluke, 2001 was a fluke. 2001 was a display of poor managerial abilities and bad chemistry. Let's go back to what got us #1 to begin with. Forget about trading Lee. Forget about trading Durham. Let's give them all one more year with a normal, DEPENDABLE , starting lineup. Then sit back and let the fun begin. If June comes and we're still playing .500, then let's make some moves. I think we just need to throw 2001 out the window and pretend that it never happened. Too much went wrong and it affected everyone mentally.

guillen4life13
12-11-2001, 08:07 AM
I was reading the Chicago Tribune this morning, and they said that Carlos Lee is being pursued by the Mets. They've supposedly already offered Kevin Appier in the talks, but the Sox didn't want it because of his $32 million contract.

Jay Payton is supposedly being talked about though.

I don't know. I think we should keep Lee in this situation, unless they try getting Al Leiter or if they change their mind about Appier.

It's been said millions of times: this team needs a veteran starter.

We'll see what happens. If they do something, I'll be happy because at least they will be making some moves and TRYING to do something, as they did last year with David Wells.

All we can do is wait.


Oh yeah, I copied and pasted the article. Here:

BOSTON - Just a few months ago the White Sox were trying to negotiate a long-term contract with left fielder Carlos Lee. But now they are telling interested clubs Lee is available.

The New York Mets spent a long time Monday with Sox officials. The revelation from that meeting is Lee, 25, may have lost his foothold in Chicago after a steady deterioration of his play.

According to major-league sources, the Mets are interested in Lee but weren't able to sell the Sox on workhorse right-hander Kevin Appier, largely because of the $32 million left on Appier's contract. Center fielder Jay Payton, an upgrade over Chris Singleton, could be a possibility.

Lee, who hit .301 with 92 RBIs in 2000, his first full year, batted .228 with only nine homers after the All-Star break last season while regressing defensively.

The rise of prospects Aaron Rowand and Joe Borchard, along with Jeff Liefer's ratio of one homer every 14 at-bats, allows the Sox to consider a deal.

When general manager Ken Williams praises Lee's potential, it sounds as much like a sales pitch as a vote of support.

"As far as a talent, Carlos Lee is one of the most talented," Williams said. "Defensively we have a lot of work to do."

With Rowand in left and the gifted Payton in center, the Sox could save runs for a starting rotation that could average younger than 24 years old next season.

Williams also would like to add an experienced starter without committing to a long-term contract.

Texas' Rick Helling and San Francisco's Shawn Estes are among the options.




Now, why would they get Rick Helling? HE SUCKS!!!

Jerry_Manuel
12-11-2001, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I was reading the Chicago Tribune this morning, and they said that Carlos Lee is being pursued by the Mets. They've supposedly already offered Kevin Appier in the talks, but the Sox didn't want it because of his $32 million contract.

Jay Payton is supposedly being talked about though.



The article forgot to mention the other reason why the Sox rejected the trade. Because Kevin Appier is flat out brutal, his career is over. What the hell are we going to do with Jay Payton?

AsInWreck
12-11-2001, 04:07 PM
[i]

I don't know. I think we should keep Lee in this situation, unless they try getting Al Leiter or if they change their mind about Appier.


[/B]

KW-"Trade for Leiter? I already have him pencilled
in at third!"
JM-"That's Leifer, Ken."
KW-"We can't afford Leifer, Jerry, you know that."

czalgosz
12-11-2001, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


The article forgot to mention the other reason why the Sox rejected the trade. Because Kevin Appier is flat out brutal, his career is over. What the hell are we going to do with Jay Payton?

I was waiting for someone to point out Jay Payton's obvious flaws -

Chris Singleton 1999 - .300 BA 17 HR 72 RBI OPS - .818
Jay Payton 2000 - .291 BA 17 HR 62 RBI OPS - .789

Chris Singleton 2000 - .254 BA 11 HR 62 RBI OPS - .683
Jay Payton 2001 - .255 BA 8 HR 34 RBI OPS - .669
Prorated Jay Payton (to 511 ABs - what Singleton had in 2000) - 11 HRs, 48 RBI

It's creepy how similar they are. So basically Rogers wants the Sox to trade Carlos Lee for another Chris Singleton. I'm whelmed.

AsInWreck
12-11-2001, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz


I was waiting for someone to point out Jay Payton's obvious flaws ...
So basically Rogers wants the Sox to trade Carlos Lee for another Chris Singleton. I'm whelmed.

Lee for Payton is a joke but it ain't funny/why would the sox trade for an OF anyway, unless its for a major baller?

guillen4life13
12-11-2001, 06:54 PM
I don't know what to say. I think maybe they should ask about Steve Traschel, or something like that. I don't know.

We'll see what happens. I think Lee is worth a lot, so they had better not screw up any opportunities if they come along.

Jerry_Manuel
12-11-2001, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by guillen4life13
I don't know what to say. I think maybe they should ask about Steve Traschel, or something like that. I don't know.

We'll see what happens. I think Lee is worth a lot, so they had better not screw up any opportunities if they come along.

No we don't want to ask about Steve Traschel. Our defense isn't that good now and with Mr. 60 seconds before each pitch it would be worse. Traschel always has one good year then a bad year. Sounds a lot like James Baldwin if you ask me. If they are going to trade Lee (which I don't believe) they should get a better pitcher then Steve Traschel or Kevin Appier.

Daver
12-11-2001, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by doublem23


The day Royce Clayton wins a Gold Glove, I'll run across Time Square nude...



You can't do it nude,Rob Dibble is being forced to wear a g-string for his run through Times Squre to keep from being arrested.

czalgosz
12-11-2001, 08:49 PM
For those who missed it - here's the article I posted at the beginning of this thread...

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/2001/1129/1286791.html

I think the old link expired or something.

Anyway, the Sox finished 4th in the AL in offensive production from their shortstops, behind Texas, New York and Oakland (in that order).

Royce Clayton played 1117.1 innings at short last season - the equivalent of 124 complete games.

Jose Valentin played 310.0 innings at short.

Tony Graffanino played 6 innings at short.

So, the Sox got comparatively pretty good offensive production at short, if you look at it objectively, even though Clayton was there most of the time. The Sox did a good job, better than the Tigers, for instance, who had Deivi Cruz, or the Blue Jays, who had the great Alex Gonzalez.

Yes, Clayton had a terrible April and May. It was mind-bogglingly bad. But let me point out what the real problem was for the Sox in April -

Harold Baines - 3-for-27 (.111)
Frank Thomas - 15-for-68 (.221)
Magglio Ordonez - 21-for-84 (.250)
Ray Durham - 21-for-92 (.228)

IOW, 4 guys who were getting PAID to hit, the guys who we don't care about their defense, hit a collective .228 in April. Only Lee and Konerko and Perry (in limited duty) hit with any authority for the first month of the season. If those guys had been doing their job, then Clayton's slump would have been a curiosity, nothing more.

Look, I'm just tired of hearing the argument. If anything, we've got too much depth at short. Clayton did fine from June on (in fact, he hit .310 after June 1)

If we're going to criticize a player for perfoming under expectations offensively, there's only one obvious choice...

:ray

I hit 20 dingers!

Jerry_Manuel
12-11-2001, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Yes, Clayton had a terrible April and May. It was mind-bogglingly bad. But let me point out what the real problem was for the Sox in April -

Look, I'm just tired of hearing the argument. If anything, we've got too much depth at short. Clayton did fine from June on (in fact, he hit .310 after June 1)



I must have missed something, wasn't this thread about Carlos Lee? But I'll address your points. Your correct if the 4 players you mentioned hit like they were supposed to Clayton's sub .100 average wouldn't have looked so bad. But the 4 players hit bad as did Royce. It's all water under the bridge to me. He's going to be here whether we like it or not. If he can start 2002 like he ended 2001 then he's ok in my book. But if he starts off brutal once again then he's going to be on my **** list.

czalgosz
12-11-2001, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


I must have missed something, wasn't this thread about Carlos Lee? But I'll address your points. Your correct if the 4 players you mentioned hit like they were supposed to Clayton's sub .100 average wouldn't have looked so bad. But the 4 players hit bad as did Royce. It's all water under the bridge to me. He's going to be here whether we like it or not. If he can start 2002 like he ended 2001 then he's ok in my book. But if he starts off brutal once again then he's going to be on my **** list.

Well, that was my original point, is that Lee had a pretty good year despite what people think, but it quickly degenerated into the usual Choice - vs. Manos debate. My only point is that we did pretty well offensively at both positions.

Anyway, I think there's a lot to be positive about for next season. Even if they make no moves, the Sox will be favorites to win the division if even a handful of currently injured players come back. If Wunsch and Barcelo and Parque, for instance, are ready for 2002, the bullpen will be second to none. Buehrle and Garland alone give us a rotation that's better than most of the rest of the league, and if even one of the Biddle/Wright/Rauch/Kip group come through in 2002, they'll be great.

With or without Frank, our lineup is pretty damn good, when it's hitting on all cylinders. A leadoff hitter would be nice, but even the Yankees need a leadoff hitter.

We can sit here and gripe and complain, but in the end, we have a lot more hope for next season than about 20 of the other 29 teams.

Jerry_Manuel
12-11-2001, 09:47 PM
Originally posted by czalgosz
Even if they make no moves, the Sox will be favorites to win the division if even a handful of currently injured players come back.


I don't think we'll be the favorites. However I did here Gammons mention us today when asked about if Minnesota is in the league next year how will they look.

czalgosz
12-11-2001, 09:54 PM
I don't mean Vegas favorites (although I saw a Vegas line on the Sox winning the 2002 World Series - it was 20-1. Just an aside) but anyone with a brain has got to pick the Sox for the AL central. I mean, I'm biased, but the Tribe has gotten a whole lot worse this off-season, and the Sox almost finished ahead of the Twins despite the fact that the Twins were hitting on all cylinders and the Sox had their AAA team out there. I mean, is there something that I'm missing? Did adding Dmitri Young turn the Tigers into 95-game winners or something?

Mathew
12-12-2001, 01:07 AM
I don't understand why people don't yet think we have inheirited the division by default yet? I might put $20 down at 20-1, $400 I've spent money worse.

Jerry_Manuel
12-12-2001, 05:56 AM
Originally posted by Mathew
I don't understand why people don't yet think we have inheirited the division by default yet? I might put $20 down at 20-1, $400 I've spent money worse.


I said last week that I don't think they will win the division. I'll stand by that until they prove me wrong. You would think they have won it by default, but you just watch and all the "experts" will pick Minnesota or Cleveland.