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Ol' No. 2
08-30-2005, 11:19 AM
Who read Phil Rogers' column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050829rogers,1,6030741.column?coll=cs-whitesox-utility) today? Here's the operative part:
Maybe, Buehrle wondered after Monday night's 7-5 loss to the Rangers, the rumors really are true. Maybe Buck Showalter's Rangers really do steal signs electronically and signal them to hitters using one of the lights on the hideous office building in center field at Ameriquest Field. "Which team are you asking about?" Buehrle said. "The team that struggles on the road or the one that uses the light in center field? Something's strange. They don't play so good on the road, and at home everybody's Babe Ruth." This seems a little farfetched, but Buehrle seemed to be hurrying his pitches even more than usual last night.

JRIG
08-30-2005, 11:24 AM
Who read Phil Rogers' column (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050829rogers,1,6030741.column?coll=cs-whitesox-utility) today? Here's the operative part:
This seems a little farfetched, but Buehrle seemed to be hurrying his pitches even more than usual last night.

Farmer alluded to this last night on the radio broadcast.

Unregistered
08-30-2005, 11:28 AM
Well, at very least, this might make for an interesting rest of the series. It's one thing for us to say something like that, but if you believe this article, it's basically common knowledge around the league that they're stealing signs using the scoreboard.

All this increases the chances that Showalter will probably charge the mound at some point in this series. :wink:

Ol' No. 2
08-30-2005, 11:29 AM
Farmer alluded to this last night on the radio broadcast.It seem to me pretty difficult logistically to get a sign, then relay it to various people in the building to turn lights on or off in time for the batter to see it and still prepare for the pitch. Especially with Buehrle pitching. But if they think it's an issue, the solution seems ridiculously simple: just switch the signs. You turn an advantage for the hitter into a disadvantage if he's expecting a curve and gets a fastball.

DaleJRFan
08-30-2005, 11:30 AM
Maybe Oakland, Kansas City, Minnesota, Boston are all stealing signs too.

He needs to shut up and pitch. Aside from his 8/24 start in Minnesota, the last 7 or so starts have been bad.

Madvora
08-30-2005, 11:32 AM
Here's one thing I never understood. Why does the catcher have to put signs down at all? How do the catchers know more about pitching than the pitchers?
I can understand when you have a situation like McCarthy thowing to Carlton Fisk or something, but why do experienced pitchers need to be told what to throw? Especially if they can shake off pitches and throw what they want anyway.
The only thing I can think of is so the catcher is prepared for what to expect.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2005, 11:34 AM
Wasn't another team rumored to have done this a LONG way back using a light on the scoreboard? (For some reason I'm thinking it was the White Sox).

Should be interesting how this progresses with 3 games left in the series.

The Rangers will probably take exception to being called out in the media and may retalliate. Likewise, if Sox pitchers really believe this is happening, and the Rangers continue to tee off on us, I'd be shocked if there was not a brush back or two.

SoxinAZ
08-30-2005, 11:36 AM
Here's one thing I never understood. Why does the catcher have to put signs down at all? How do the catchers know more about pitching than the pitchers?
I can understand when you have a situation like McCarthy thowing to Carlton Fisk or something, but why do experienced pitchers need to be told what to throw? Especially if they can shake off pitches and throw what they want anyway.
The only thing I can think of is so the catcher is prepared for what to expect.

To prevent passed balls.

seventytwo
08-30-2005, 11:38 AM
Here's one thing I never understood. Why does the catcher have to put signs down at all? How do the catchers know more about pitching than the pitchers?
I can understand when you have a situation like McCarthy thowing to Carlton Fisk or something, but why do experienced pitchers need to be told what to throw? Especially if they can shake off pitches and throw what they want anyway.
The only thing I can think of is so the catcher is prepared for what to expect.

I'd hate to be a catcher expecting a curve from Bobby Jenks, and then get the heat.

No thank you.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2005, 11:38 AM
Here's one thing I never understood. Why does the catcher have to put signs down at all? How do the catchers know more about pitching than the pitchers?
I can understand when you have a situation like McCarthy thowing to Carlton Fisk or something, but why do experienced pitchers need to be told what to throw? Especially if they can shake off pitches and throw what they want anyway.
The only thing I can think of is so the catcher is prepared for what to expect.

Your last statement is the reason. When someone is throwing 90 plus miles per hour on their fastball and you read curve ball out of the pitcher's hand (but it is actually just a high fastball) you will not catch it. You see this when catchers get crossed up (expecting one pitch and getting another) and a seemingly easy ball to catch goes of their gloves.

If the Sox believe this is happening, they should go to a sequence of signs all the time (like they would do with a runner on base) and perhaps change up the indicator/what sign they are using from inning to inning.

MIgrenade
08-30-2005, 11:41 AM
Here's one thing I never understood. Why does the catcher have to put signs down at all? How do the catchers know more about pitching than the pitchers?
I can understand when you have a situation like McCarthy thowing to Carlton Fisk or something, but why do experienced pitchers need to be told what to throw? Especially if they can shake off pitches and throw what they want anyway.
The only thing I can think of is so the catcher is prepared for what to expect.

Lets say that Jenks is on the mound and he wants to throw a fastball in a breaking ball situation. Do you want to be the catcher expecting the curve and getting a 100MPH fastball? Or vise versa and have to try to stop a curve in the dirt? They have to be on the same page.
As for this, MB should try pitching. He's been getting rocked everywhere except in Minnesota. Maybe he's tipping his pitches and it has nothing to do with the scoreboard.
Plus, there are plenty of guys who stole signs while they were at second and there were plenty of hitters who didn't want it because even if you know what's coming, that doesn't mean you can hit it. MB wasn't pitching in at all and the defense didn't show up.

EDIT: Didn't see previous posts when I started this one.

MushMouth
08-30-2005, 11:45 AM
Your last statement is the reason. When someone is throwing 90 plus miles per hour on their fastball and you read curve ball out of the pitcher's hand (but it is actually just a high fastball) you will not catch it. You see this when catchers get crossed up (expecting one pitch and getting another) and a seemingly easy ball to catch goes of their gloves.

If the Sox believe this is happening, they should go to a sequence of signs all the time (like they would do with a runner on base) and perhaps change up the indicator/what sign they are using from inning to inning.

And, in more cases that just a McCarthy-type situation, catchers indeed DO call a better game than a pitcher would. They can take all the factors involved without prejudice and call a game objectively. AJ is masterful at calling games, as are many other catchers around the league. For instance, if Contreras called his own games he'd throw 35 forkballs before throwing a fastball.

cheeses_h_rice
08-30-2005, 11:52 AM
Wasn't another team rumored to have done this a LONG way back using a light on the scoreboard? (For some reason I'm thinking it was the White Sox).

Bill Melton on AM1000 today said that the White Sox used a red light on the scoreboard and specifically mentioned Ivan Calderon being a beneficiary of this system.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 11:52 AM
And, in more cases that just a McCarthy-type situation, catchers indeed DO call a better game than a pitcher would. They can take all the factors involved without prejudice and call a game objectively. AJ is masterful at calling games, as are many other catchers around the league. For instance, if Contreras called his own games he'd throw 35 forkballs before throwing a fastball.

Bingo. Catcher's play against these guys everyday and have a better idea of what they can and can't handle moreso than the pitchers. On top of that, it takes that mental aspect out of the pitcher's hands to prevent it from becoming yet another distraction that 75% of pitcher's couldn't handle.

the_valenstache
08-30-2005, 11:58 AM
The Rangers will probably take exception to being called out in the media and may retalliate. Likewise, if Sox pitchers really believe this is happening, and the Rangers continue to tee off on us, I'd be shocked if there was not a brush back or two.

Minding the trends, I've got my money on Garland getting tossed in the second inning on the first extra-inside pitch he throws and 11 of our guys getting plunked.

pdimas
08-30-2005, 11:59 AM
Here is a link to an article about the 1951 Giants stealing signs in order to help them win the pennant. Interesting read.

http://www.historicbaseball.com/teams/1951giants.html

deck27
08-30-2005, 12:06 PM
the catcher is prepared for what to expect.

That is relatively important. Stealing signs has been around forever, but if Buck has a system where a camera is looking in on AJ then flashing something, that's not right.

Palehose13
08-30-2005, 12:31 PM
I love Mark, but it's making him look like a whiner. However, there are significant differences in there home and road stats that leads one to believe that this might be true. But the Sox had one of the greatest sign stealers in Nossek. This, unlike steroids, I accept as part of the game.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2005, 12:35 PM
Stealing signs has been around forever, but if Buck has a system where a camera is looking in on AJ then flashing something, that's not right.

Down here on Sportsblab radio, there's a phrase Rangers' beat writers and columnists use that says a lot:

"Buck being Buck."

I'm not saying it's true. However, as much of a control freak as he is, this would not surprise one iota me if it is true.

jdm2662
08-30-2005, 12:38 PM
Stealing signs is part of the game, as long as it's done legit (ie coach catches it from the dug-out, passes it on to other coaches/players, etc). I never understood why people got upset if this happened. It sounded so damn stupid. If the coach catches something, why the hell is it wrong to "steal" it. It's no different in football where you know what play is being ran by catching a certain formation, etc. However, it's crap if the Rangers are actually lighting the scoreboard. In this case, MB is looking like a whinner, so I hope he shuts up and starts pitching better. With the way the Sox is scoring runs as of late, they can't afford subpar performances.

Sad
08-30-2005, 12:40 PM
Down here on Sportsblab radio, there's a phrase Rangers' beat writers and columnists use that says a lot:

"Buck being Buck."

I'm not saying it's true. However, as much of a control freak as he is, this would not surprise one iota me if it is true.

...it's well known Buck invented the game of baseball...

LVSoxFan
08-30-2005, 12:42 PM
I'm torn on this because I don't know if Buehrle's being a whiner--uncharacteristic of him--or if there's something to it.

It's fascinating, though, how crappy they are on the road but at home they are, like he says, all Babe Ruth.

So how exactly would this little signal work, theoretically?

FielderJones
08-30-2005, 12:43 PM
But the Sox had one of the greatest sign stealers in Nossek. This, unlike steroids, I accept as part of the game.

Was he doing this from the bench, and manually relaying the signs, or with a high-zoom video camera focused on the catcher and relaying the signs electronically? I think there's a difference.

CaptainBallz
08-30-2005, 12:43 PM
I'm guessing it was a tongue-in-cheek comment. Some healthy crap talkin never hurt the game one bit.
Plus, consider the source.

Iwritecode
08-30-2005, 12:43 PM
I love Mark, but it's making him look like a whiner. However, there are significant differences in there home and road stats that leads one to believe that this might be true. But the Sox had one of the greatest sign stealers in Nossek. This, unlike steroids, I accept as part of the game.

I think there's a bit of difference between stealing signs for bunting, hit&run, stealing etc... that Nossek used to pick up than stealing signs for pitches.

The first anyone can pick up just be sitting on the bench. The second you really have to work for...

Palehose13
08-30-2005, 12:44 PM
I'm torn on this because I don't know if Buehrle's being a whiner--uncharacteristic of him--or if there's something to it.


I don't know if it is uncharacteristic anymore. Remember what he said about a cub pitcher and most believed he was referring to Maddux?

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2005, 12:45 PM
If the Rangers do have such a system, I'll bet it would be turned off today, tonight and Wednesday.

That being said, there's no reason a catcher can't make his signs more complicated by, say, flashing four or five gestures and agreeing beforehand that only one (say, the third of five) of the signs is the "real" sign. This should be no more complicated than changing up the snap count in football.

Doesn't Coop normally call the pitches and relay his calls to AJ or Widger? If so, for the duration of this series, just to screw with the Rangers and their brilliant manager, Ozzie should make all his coaches - Coop, Raines, Harold and Cora - flash signs constantly when the Sox pitcher is setting up. Before taking the field for the bottom of an inning, Coop can tell the catcher which coach will be flashing the real signs.

Palehose13
08-30-2005, 12:45 PM
I think there's a bit of difference between stealing signs for bunting, hit&run, stealing etc... that Nossek used to pick up than stealing signs for pitches.

The first anyone can pick up just be sitting on the bench. The second you really have to work for...

So how do we feel about our own Sox being accused of this in the past?

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2005, 12:48 PM
So how do we feel about our own Sox being accused of this in the past?

I know the question wasn't addressed to me, but...

"Totally biased, utterly petty and completely unobjective."

I hope the Sox are doing everything they can that is legal to gain an advantage over the opposition.

Palehose13
08-30-2005, 12:52 PM
I just don't want to have the reputation as the team that whines when things don't go right. As Frater pointed out, there are plenty of things that can be done if you think they are stealing your signs. This is something that you can make an adjustment and fix the problem.

Sxy Mofo
08-30-2005, 12:54 PM
I don't know if it is uncharacteristic anymore. Remember what he said about a cub pitcher and most believed he was referring to Maddux?

I think he does this just to make a story. Plus, part of me wonders if guillen had him say something. You know how far out of his way guillen would go to not offend showalter, because he just likes him so much

Whitesox05
08-30-2005, 12:54 PM
Maybe Oakland, Kansas City, Minnesota, Boston are all stealing signs too.

He needs to shut up and pitch. Aside from his 8/24 start in Minnesota, the last 7 or so starts have been bad.

Agreed! He needs to stop crying and pitch like the possible cy young candidate he was supposed to be. He is not a big game pitcher and that sucks. If we make the playoffs, I would not start him as our ace. My rotation (top 3) would be Garcia, El Duque, Contreras. These are our big game pitchers!!

ChiSoxRowand
08-30-2005, 12:58 PM
I love Mark, but it's making him look like a whiner. However, there are significant differences in there home and road stats that leads one to believe that this might be true. But the Sox had one of the greatest sign stealers in Nossek. This, unlike steroids, I accept as part of the game.

I don't really have a problem when coaches and players do it. But when you have someone in the scoreboard or something doing it it's bush league, even if our sox used to do it.

bluestar
08-30-2005, 12:59 PM
The rumor that the Rangers are using some sophisticated system to steal signs and relay the pitch called to the pitcher has been around for a while now. The same rumor has existed about the Red Sox. Barry Zito accused the Red Sox of using a system of some type last year after getting shelled at Fenway.

Changing the signs and/or using some kind of complex, changing system for signs is used regularly, too. However, many believe some teams may counter by using video to analyze the signs used -- even when they are changed frequently during a game. If you make the signing system too complex, even your own pitchers and catchers may have problems with it. It shouldn't be too difficult to figure out the signs if you use video to review them, even if they are changed throughout the game.

Many managers change the signs any time there is a runner for the opposing team on second base, too.

I agree it is one thing for a coach to sit in the dugout and steal baserunning/pitchout signs or for a runner on second to steal signs and signal the batter, but it is another thing to use technology to do it on every pitch.

jdm2662
08-30-2005, 12:59 PM
So how do we feel about our own Sox being accused of this in the past?

If he picked up the signs from the dug-out and passed it along to the players, that's fine. If there was such system where he signaled to the scoreboard, etc, then I wouldn't call that legit.

Sxy Mofo
08-30-2005, 01:00 PM
Agreed! He needs to stop crying and pitch like the possible cy young candidate he was supposed to be. He is not a big game pitcher and that sucks. If we make the playoffs, I would not start him as our ace. My rotation (top 3) would be Garcia, El Duque, Contreras. These are our big game pitchers!!

Agreed, Buehrle, can't pitch in big games. Remember the all star game?



Let's get serious here, he's had some horrible defense in his last number of starts. When the defense gets better (the ground ball pitcher) buehrle will be better. I don't even want to respond to who your top 3 pitchers would be.

Ol' No. 2
08-30-2005, 01:08 PM
I just don't want to have the reputation as the team that whines when things don't go right. As Frater pointed out, there are plenty of things that can be done if you think they are stealing your signs. This is something that you can make an adjustment and fix the problem.Keep in mind that his comments are "filtered" through the writer. And we've all seen how unbiased they can be.

Iwritecode
08-30-2005, 01:09 PM
So how do we feel about our own Sox being accused of this in the past?

It's still wrong IMO.

If the Sox are going to win a WS in my lifetime, I'd rather they did it the "right" way.

I.E. no stealing signs with a camera set up in the scoreboard, no steriods, no pitchers doctoring the ball, etc...

Domeshot17
08-30-2005, 01:14 PM
You know, 3 things come from this.

(1) Anyone listening to Dan PAtrick Radio Show, HE IS TEARING INTO BUEHLRE right now. Most Media are going to have a field day with this

(2) Now, The White Sox look like they are pointing fingers for the recent slide and not accepting blame

(3) Is Buehlre worse than Konerko at saying realllll dumb things to the media? He's catching up at the very least.

mccombe_35
08-30-2005, 01:16 PM
Maybe Oakland, Kansas City, Minnesota, Boston are all stealing signs too.

He needs to shut up and pitch. Aside from his 8/24 start in Minnesota, the last 7 or so starts have been bad.

besides the 8 IP, 1 ER game in Min. you pointed out he also had the 5 2/3 IP, 0 ER game in Bal (i think it was the ejection game that ended his sterak of 6+ IP games), & a 8 IP, 1 ER game against Sea. recently.

IMO Buehrle just says whats on his mind, which is refreshing, but the media makes too much of it. His theory on Maddux this year & his thoughts on the Twins post season chances last year come to mind also.....

Over By There
08-30-2005, 01:17 PM
While I'm not crazy about MB bringing it up in the media, I also wouldn't be surprised if he was right. I was watching a little bit of the Little League World Series two weekends ago on Sunday, the game between Louisiana and Kentucky, and one of the teams was stealing signs. And that was little kids!

SoxinAZ
08-30-2005, 01:19 PM
Sounds like MB is just making excuses for another bad outing.

LVSoxFan
08-30-2005, 01:21 PM
How could you tell they were stealing signs? :o:

Palehose13
08-30-2005, 01:23 PM
You know, 3 things come from this.

(1) Anyone listening to Dan PAtrick Radio Show, HE IS TEARING INTO BUEHLRE right now. Most Media are going to have a field day with this

(2) Now, The White Sox look like they are pointing fingers for the recent slide and not accepting blame

(3) Is Buehlre worse than Konerko at saying realllll dumb things to the media? He's catching up at the very least.

And that is where I was going.

How do MB and/or the White Sox benefit by his making comments like this? Texas may be what he claims, but why say it after getting shelled? It looks like sour grapes. If the Sox believe that Texas is cheating, why not try to catch them instead of shooting off their mouths?

LVSoxFan
08-30-2005, 01:29 PM
I guess I would have somebody from the Sox build some evidence before they made the accusation; just my two cents.

I'm going to go look and see what the Dallas media are saying about this.

HotelWhiteSox
08-30-2005, 02:00 PM
As mentioned above, Farmer was talking about this in the beginning of last night's game. He said he first really noticed it the last time the Sox were in Texas. I also heard mention of it on one of the Score's show today, I guess the organization has suspicions.

It does smell a little fishy. I know there's no direct correlation, pitchers have bad games, but when Texas was at the Cell, Buerhle pitched 7.1 and gave up 0 earned runs. The way they were hitting in the first, smelled fishy. And they do have offensive explosions at home, I remember how they just annhilated Houston.

You hear about this in the game though, I remember a story where Hawk would have controls to scoreboard lights set up to try and help the hitter to tell him what was coming? It was a rumor, but I read it here

MIgrenade
08-30-2005, 02:08 PM
I was thinking, which is probably bad to begin with but what crosses my mind is, why don't the White Sox try to find this alledged light on the scoreboard? Why don't they video tape it happening and show it to the umps or to the league? My guess is that you don't want to be seen as a rat and have bad blood between teams, but if that's the case then MB should keep his mouth shut. Furthermore, the Rangers are only 6 games over at home, so even if they are stealing signs they really aren't that good at it.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2005, 02:09 PM
From Denny Trease's interview with WSI:

ML: Has the line been blurred even more today? Sox fans like to talk about Hawk Harrelson who used to be known for his honesty as a color commentator when he worked with Don Drysdale, yet today seems to be just a mouthpiece for the organization.

DT: "I think the line has blurred even more. In Hawk’s case it’s been a gradual change. I thought he was very good when he worked with Don Drysdale... today some of the things he says just makes you wonder. Hawk is supposedly very close to the owner and it stands to reason that the closer you are to the guy who runs the team, the less you are going to criticize his product."

"Here’s an example. When Walt Hriniak was the Sox hitting coach, his style, like the Royals Charlie Lau, was to have everybody hit the exact same way. I know Hawk wouldn’t have stood for that when he was playing. To have a coach demand that he change his style, Hawk wouldn’t have accepted that. Hawk should have said something about that, especially when the Sox had some guys who were home run hitters like Sammy Sosa and Cory Snyder. I’d see these guys who could hit the ball a long way, trying to hit singles up the middle. I was always amused at the influence that Hriniak had on the Sox. Also there was a rumor going around for many years and I heard this from different announcers on different teams, that Hawk actually called pitches from up in the broadcast booth. He had a little switch in the TV booth and he’d turn it on or off activating a light in the dugout or the scoreboard that would tip off the hitter. I’m not trying to impugn his reputation, I’m just saying this is what I was told."

Lip

soxgirl617
08-30-2005, 02:51 PM
Agreed, Buehrle, can't pitch in big games. Remember the all star game?



Let's get serious here, he's had some horrible defense in his last number of starts. When the defense gets better (the ground ball pitcher) buehrle will be better. I don't even want to respond to who your top 3 pitchers would be.

I agree completely. Not only has the defense been shaky, but the offense has been close to non-existent for him. I find it refreshing that Mark will speak his mind. To me, he's never been a whiner, and I find it difficult to believe he'd just start whining. The Trib column today quotes him as recognizing that people may think it was sour grapes---and he went ahead and said it. He's a guy who has earned the chance to speak his mind, IMHO, so stop making a big deal of his comments.

As to the substance of it: IF the Rangers are using electronic means to steal signs and then relay that to the hitter, it's wrong, pure and simple.

nlentz88
08-30-2005, 03:42 PM
You know, this brings up the whole issue of technology in sports. In football, when coaches headsets went wireless there was a lot of attempts by the oposition to intercept those signals. In response, scrambling technology was developed. Then de-scramblers were introduced, and so on.


But baseball seems to be different. Whereas other sports seem to have embrassed technology (instant replay, headsets, goal sensors, shot clocks, etc.), baseball has remained mostly free of these things (other than meters for pitch speed, pitch count, etc.). It seems that the majority of the people on this board have no problem with a coach or player stealing a sign, but do have a problem if telescopic cameras, computers, and scoreboards are being used. Don't get me wrong, I agree with this differentiation. I just think it is indiciative of the sport.

I also think the best way to combat it would be to try and catch Rangers (or Red Sox) at the act. It doesn't seem like MLB or anyone is trying to police teams to make sure they're not doing this. So maybe visiting teams should try and police it themselves. All it would take is two video cameras. One would be pointed at the catcher to steal the sign in the same manner as the accused. Another camera would then be aimed at the accused scoreboard light. If a correlation between signs and flashing lights can be made and documented on video, then I think MLB would have to act. Otherwise there's really no way to stop something like this from continuing.

ATXBMX
08-30-2005, 03:52 PM
This rumor has been going around for a while now. Rooney and Farmer mentioned it months ago when we were getting shelled in Arlington. It's not like Buehrle is making this stuff up. The Rangers absolutely suck on the road.

They've had games where they've hit 8 HR. 8!!! (http://texas.rangers.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/wrapup.jsp?ymd=20050521&content_id=1057968&vkey=wrapup2004&fext=.jsp&c_id=tex) 8 homeruns by seven different players, that's just a little suspicious.

Home: 36-29
Home: 125 HR

Road: 26-39
Road: 86 HR

bluestar
08-30-2005, 04:08 PM
I also think the best way to combat it would be to try and catch Rangers (or Red Sox) at the act. It doesn't seem like MLB or anyone is trying to police teams to make sure they're not doing this. So maybe visiting teams should try and police it themselves. All it would take is two video cameras. One would be pointed at the catcher to steal the sign in the same manner as the accused. Another camera would then be aimed at the accused scoreboard light. If a correlation between signs and flashing lights can be made and documented on video, then I think MLB would have to act. Otherwise there's really no way to stop something like this from continuing.

I think it would be more difficult to prove conclusively than you think. In the first place, I don't think anyone knows for sure where this supposed signal is located. It is supposedly something in center field, but no one has said it is a scoreboard light or some other light located elsewhere. While some kind of system might be suspected, actually discovering how it works is a whole other issue.

Additionally, I suspect no team would want to open this can of worms unless they could prove conclusively such a system existed. Perhaps other teams would prefer to develop similar systems rather than expose existing ones?

Lastly, any time cheating is suspected, one must examine the benefits derived. It isn't like the Rangers have the best record in baseball or even the best home record in baseball. Even if they have such a sophisticated system as has been described (with video cameras, flashing lights, etc.), it would still be pretty much a shot in the dark. Do they have someone that sits in the clubhouse the whole game analyzing the video feed of the opposing catcher and pitcher so they can push a button that activates or deactivates some light in center field? As others have pointed out throughout baseball history, just because you know what's coming doesn't mean you can hit it.

MIgrenade
08-30-2005, 04:28 PM
Home: 36-29
Home: 125 HR

Road: 26-39
Road: 86 HR

That's 7 over at home and 13 under on the road. FWIW, Teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox have about the same disparity in record.
Home Away
Boston 41-19 34-35
New York 44-24 30-32

These are two teams that are like the Rangers in that they are offense reliant and play better at home. I'm not saying that the Rangers aren't cheating, but there's nothing about the record that is indicative of it. The power numbers may be but they aren't averaging much more than the sox last year. But I don't know how many the Sox hit at home. I used full year numbers.
At any rate, If they are cheating it's not working that well for them, plus the Sox gave away the game yesterday anyway...unless they were paying off Iguchi.

LVSoxFan
08-30-2005, 04:48 PM
Considering our record at home lately, one could argue the opposing teams are stealing signs at the Cell!

buehrle4cy05
08-30-2005, 04:54 PM
I have no problem if you have somebody like a Joe Nossek sitting on the bench and stealing signs by decoding them. That's not cheating, that's cracking an incredibly hard code and using it to your advantage. Nossek can't take the signals from the catcher and relay them to a player. What he can do is pick up tendencies from the 1st/3rd base coaches and tells by pitchers (ex. when JC would flap his glove only if he was going to throw a split). Nossek sits on the bench, not atop a scoreboard or in some office with a pair of binoculars and a red light. What the Rangers are possibly doing would cross the line from observance to cheating.

HotelWhiteSox
08-30-2005, 05:36 PM
Considering our record at home lately, one could argue the opposing teams are stealing signs at the Cell!

DJ wants a raise

brewcrew/chisox
08-30-2005, 09:17 PM
Journalist to himself:

Hmm, let's see. This scoreboard light thing would be a really good scoop. Just imagine if the Rangers were actually stealing signs. But jeeze, who to ask? Man, if only the Sox had a guy on their team who played with the Rangers recently. I don't know, within the last year or so. I could just ask him and see what he says. Then we could end all of this tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff and get on with our lives. Hmm, no one to ask. Guess I'll just have to ask Buehrle. Too bad no x-Rangers play for the Sox.


:everett: :pods:
"Yeah, too bad."

:rolleyes:

ATXBMX
08-30-2005, 09:43 PM
Journalist to himself:

Hmm, let's see. This scoreboard light thing would be a really good scoop. Just imagine if the Rangers were actually stealing signs. But jeeze, who to ask? Man, if only the Sox had a guy on their team who played with the Rangers recently. I don't know, within the last year or so. I could just ask him and see what he says. Then we could end all of this tinfoil hat conspiracy stuff and get on with our lives. Hmm, no one to ask. Guess I'll just have to ask Buehrle. Too bad no x-Rangers play for the Sox.


:everett: :pods:
"Yeah, too bad."

:rolleyes:

wow...Podsednik was drafted by the rangers 11 years ago, and never played higher than AA for them. :rolleyes:

Soxzilla
08-30-2005, 10:08 PM
Not sure if this was brought up in the thread, but Mazilli and Showalter were the ones having a titty fit earlier this year about the Cells mounds being raised as an advantage for the pitcher. Which in fact, they were not.

Showalter is a jag, through and through. And him stealing signs wouldn't surprise me one bit.

brewcrew/chisox
08-30-2005, 10:44 PM
wow...Podsednik was drafted by the rangers 11 years ago, and never played higher than AA for them. :rolleyes:

He was drafted by the Rangers in 94 and then played with Seattle in 2000 and 2001 before coming to the Brewers. You are probably right; being with the team that long ago--despite the length of time--would most likely have no bearing on any shananigans going on during present days.

That being said, what about Carl? I mean if "whispers" of this kind of thing have been going on for quite a while now, then who would know more about it than a guy that played with the organization until 2003? Why not ask him? He played for Showalter. Heck, why hasn't ANYONE from the Texas organization who has left since Showalter has been manager said ANYTHING after leaving. Wouldn't that be a little more credible than a pitcher who happened to get hit around the park for an afternoon? (And I love MB by the way)

I mean really, untill someone can point to some hard core facts (actual video etc), or a source that might have a first hand account of the organization (Carlasaurus et al), this story is nothing short of an Oliver Stone movie.

Daver
08-30-2005, 11:00 PM
Anyone that thinks Joe Nosseck couldn't steal pitch calls is fooling themselves, he had it down to a science. There is a reaon Man Soo Lee is the Sox bullpen catcher, no matter who the manager is, the same can be said for Nosseck until he chose to stop coaching.

NSSoxFan
08-30-2005, 11:11 PM
Anyone that thinks Joe Nosseck couldn't steal pitch calls is fooling themselves, he had it down to a science. There is a reaon Man Soo Lee is the Sox bullpen catcher, no matter who the manager is, the same can be said for Nosseck until he chose to stop coaching.

Goodness, Nossek was one of the best bench coaches of all time. You can pinpoint the signs that were stolen over the course of a ballgame. He was the one person I was mad to see go once Manuel left, I think he would have helped out Ozzie and company in so many facets of the game.

ChiSoxPatF
08-30-2005, 11:16 PM
I thought this was idiotic too until I actually saw the numbers. Something is fishy since they hit .030 better at home with 40 more homers. Just does seem peculiar. But Buehrle and the Sox have ALOT better things to worry about right now.

Uncle_Patrick
08-31-2005, 09:46 AM
Ozzie doesn't agree with Buehrle.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-050830soxbits,1,6099757.story?coll=cs-home-headlines

Vernam
08-31-2005, 10:30 PM
Goodness, Nossek was one of the best bench coaches of all time. You can pinpoint the signs that were stolen over the course of a ballgame. He was the one person I was mad to see go once Manuel left, I think he would have helped out Ozzie and company in so many facets of the game.Any truth to the rumor that Ozzie cut Nossek loose because Joe was known to be the eyes and ears of the front office? I loved Harold as a player, but his main qualification now seems to be his friendship with Ozzie, who talks enough for the two of them. :tongue:

VC

Lip Man 1
08-31-2005, 10:54 PM
Joe had some health related issues and simply got tired of being on the road so much. I think he has actually dropped by and visited once or twice since he left his coaching position.

Lip