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1917
08-30-2005, 10:06 AM
Is the "Blummer" all we have to say for ourselves? I mean are we really going to go into the post season with no insurance players? I can't believe it....I know there has been talk that no player out there, besides Griffey, is any better then what we have now....but what we have now aren't hitting....we have 6 games against the Tribe still....Lets say Dimetri Young...yes he is a carbon Copy of Carl Everett...but maybe Young will be on fire when Dye or Carl are cold....THIS IS INSURANCE FOR WHEN OUR MAIN PLAYERS ARE COLD!!! I just can't see KW letting it go by without a move, if God Forbid we lose this lead, his job can be on the line here...this is business, it's not how you start, it's how you finish...Mercy!

kittle42
08-30-2005, 10:32 AM
Much like every other team in baseball, we indeed will get nobody.

In case you haven't noticed, huge acquisitions such as Blum, Lawton, and Hollansdworth have been all there is this season.

1917
08-30-2005, 10:39 AM
[QUOTE=kittle42]Much like every other team in baseball, we indeed will get nobody.

In case you haven't noticed, huge acquisitions such as Blum, Lawton, and Hollansdworth have been all there is this season.[/QUOT

Lawton would have been a valuable pick up

Brian26
08-30-2005, 10:54 AM
Lawton would have been a valuable pick up

:hawk

"Where's he gonna...."

:DJ

"Will you shut the **** up already!"

LVSoxFan
08-30-2005, 11:07 AM
I guarantee you that if nothing happens this week and we stumble into the playoffs and, say, don't make it past the first round... this is all anybody's going to talk about until April 2006.

Madvora
08-30-2005, 11:13 AM
Since Ibanez has been mentioned, you would think that KW might be holding out on making that move because he's trying to get a definite answer on Griffey. Maybe that's a good sign though. Maybe the Reds are acually leaving something open, even though it doesn't seem like it. Otherwise you would think KW would have done something already.

As for Ibanez, I don't think that's necessary, but he could help.

1917
08-30-2005, 11:24 AM
Since Ibanez has been mentioned, you would think that KW might be holding out on making that move because he's trying to get a definite answer on Griffey. Maybe that's a good sign though. Maybe the Reds are acually leaving something open, even though it doesn't seem like it. Otherwise you would think KW would have done something already.

As for Ibanez, I don't think that's necessary, but he could help.

KW has not yet said anything is dead....he actually said he can't say anything since it would be tampering with the rules (Sun Times I think). Just made me think if he was all done, then he would have just said "This is our team"

Ol' No. 2
08-30-2005, 11:24 AM
Since Ibanez has been mentioned, you would think that KW might be holding out on making that move because he's trying to get a definite answer on Griffey. Maybe that's a good sign though. Maybe the Reds are acually leaving something open, even though it doesn't seem like it. Otherwise you would think KW would have done something already.

As for Ibanez, I don't think that's necessary, but he could help.I agree that the only reason NOT to make the move on Ibanez is if he thinks Griffey is still a possibility. Ibanez would come pretty cheap and is probably a better option at DH than Everett against RHP. I guess I'll be surprised if one or the other doesn't get done.

JRIG
08-30-2005, 11:30 AM
[QUOTE=kittle42]Much like every other team in baseball, we indeed will get nobody.

In case you haven't noticed, huge acquisitions such as Blum, Lawton, and Hollansdworth have been all there is this season.[/QUOT

Lawton would have been a valuable pick up

Unless I'm wrong, we couldn't have traded for him because the Yankees would have blocked him on the waiver wire.

Flight #24
08-30-2005, 11:33 AM
I agree that the only reason NOT to make the move on Ibanez is if he thinks Griffey is still a possibility. Ibanez would come pretty cheap and is probably a better option at DH than Everett against RHP. I guess I'll be surprised if one or the other doesn't get done.

Or based on what we heard Seattle was asking for Ron Villone, they could want a similar package for Ibanez that KW's offering for Griffey (Young+). That would be ridiculous.

However, I'd like to believe your'e right. But what kills my hope is an increasing feeling that theONLY thing blocking the Griffey deal from happening is that neither Red FO nor Jr want to be the one to take the responsibility for a deal. So the Reds say "If Jr says he wants a trade, then OK" whereas Jr says "If they come to me with a trade, I'll think about it, but until then I'm staying a Red".

Both appear to be too chicken-poop to make the move that makes sense for everyone, including Cincy.

TDog
08-30-2005, 11:37 AM
As someone who doesn't believe rich teams should be allowed to plunder not-so-rich teams late in the season, while believing the non-waiver trade deadline should be much earlier in the season, as it was when I was a kid, I'm not sorry to see a lack of player movement this summer.

There has been no consequential player movement this summer. Don't blame Kenny Williams for arrogance in the belief of his own team's talent. Reds' ownership doesn't want Griffey to go, and even if a deal for Griffey were made, there is a good chance he would nix it because he wants to stay with the Reds. When the Sox were desperately out of the race in years that Thomas was in his prime, I would have hated to see Thomas get traded to a contender. I'm glad that deal never happened. It would have been bad for Sox fans. It would have been bad for baseball.

If the Yankees beat the Sox in October, it won't be because the Sox didn't have the fortitude to pull the trigger on a trade. The Yankees now are nearly the same team that was so terrible in April, just as the Sox are virtually the same team that was so good in April.

Suck it up. There's no crying in baseball.

UofCSoxFan
08-30-2005, 11:52 AM
As someone who doesn't believe rich teams should be allowed to plunder not-so-rich teams late in the season, while believing the non-waiver trade deadline should be much earlier in the season, as it was when I was a kid, I'm not sorry to see a lack of player movement this summer.

There has been no consequential player movement this summer. Don't blame Kenny Williams for arrogance in the belief of his own team's talent. Reds' ownership doesn't want Griffey to go, and even if a deal for Griffey were made, there is a good chance he would nix it because he wants to stay with the Reds. When the Sox were desperately out of the race in years that Thomas was in his prime, I would have hated to see Thomas get traded to a contender. I'm glad that deal never happened. It would have been bad for Sox fans. It would have been bad for baseball.

If the Yankees beat the Sox in October, it won't be because the Sox didn't have the fortitude to pull the trigger on a trade. The Yankees now are nearly the same team that was so terrible in April, just as the Sox are virtually the same team that was so good in April.

Suck it up. There's no crying in baseball.

For the most part I share similar sentiments. While the current system is the one I've always known, I always thought it was kinda crappy how you could get a player for 2 months of a 7 month season and win the whole thing b/c of that. That is one of the things I like about football...if there are any trades they usually happen in the offseason...so the team you go to war with on day 1 is the team you compete in the playoffs with. These late deadline trades are almost like bringing in ringers, and there is a level of injustice to it. That being said, everyone plays by the same rules, and accordingly I would love for us to get someone to help us....In an ideal world the rules would be different imo.

1917
08-30-2005, 11:57 AM
As someone who doesn't believe rich teams should be allowed to plunder not-so-rich teams late in the season, while believing the non-waiver trade deadline should be much earlier in the season, as it was when I was a kid, I'm not sorry to see a lack of player movement this summer.

There has been no consequential player movement this summer. Don't blame Kenny Williams for arrogance in the belief of his own team's talent. Reds' ownership doesn't want Griffey to go, and even if a deal for Griffey were made, there is a good chance he would nix it because he wants to stay with the Reds. When the Sox were desperately out of the race in years that Thomas was in his prime, I would have hated to see Thomas get traded to a contender. I'm glad that deal never happened. It would have been bad for Sox fans. It would have been bad for baseball.

If the Yankees beat the Sox in October, it won't be because the Sox didn't have the fortitude to pull the trigger on a trade. The Yankees now are nearly the same team that was so terrible in April, just as the Sox are virtually the same team that was so good in April.

Suck it up. There's no crying in baseball.

I hear ya but I just want, what everyone here wants, and that's the best chance to win the WS.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 12:11 PM
I hear ya but I just want, what everyone here wants, and that's the best chance to win the WS.

We're stuck with what we got, IMO. Kenny is going to have to remake the entire offense AGAIN this offseason. I don't think we make it past the ALCS if we get that far. This just reminds me of the 2000 season where our pitching staff disintegrated down the stretch and we backed in only to get swept. This is the same thing excet the offense has totally evaporated.

Konerko has got to go and they have to address the middle of the order in a big way.

Flight #24
08-30-2005, 12:19 PM
We're stuck with what we got, IMO. Kenny is going to have to remake the entire offense AGAIN this offseason. I don't think we make it past the ALCS if we get that far. This just reminds me of the 2000 season where our pitching staff disintegrated down the stretch and we backed in only to get swept. This is the same thing excet the offense has totally evaporated.

Konerko has got to go and they have to address the middle of the order in a big way.

I don't share your dismal view, but FWIW - there aren't many big bats available in FA this year. In fact the biggest could be Konerko (Piazza is the only other "name" bat IIRC). So any remaking will have to be done via trade. That combined with his 2d straight pretty good year leads me to think they mightgo up to $10m/yr for him. While that's overpaying IMO, it's probably only doing so by $2mil.

The place they need someone is 1B/DH to replace Everett. That should have been Frank, were he healthy this team would be rolling along near .700 ball. But I don't see another similar guy out there, unless they're willing to take the big plunge and claim Ramirez off waivers.

Baby Fisk
08-30-2005, 12:26 PM
We're stuck with what we got, IMO. Kenny is going to have to remake the entire offense AGAIN this offseason. I don't think we make it past the ALCS if we get that far. This just reminds me of the 2000 season where our pitching staff disintegrated down the stretch and we backed in only to get swept. This is the same thing excet the offense has totally evaporated.

Konerko has got to go and they have to address the middle of the order in a big way.
As indicated above, the disappointment will be unprecedented. This is the best shot that the Sox have had for a while, and it it fizzles... mercy... The recriminations will go on for months (years)... :(:

TheOldRoman
08-30-2005, 12:27 PM
We're stuck with what we got, IMO. Kenny is going to have to remake the entire offense AGAIN this offseason. I don't think we make it past the ALCS if we get that far. This just reminds me of the 2000 season where our pitching staff disintegrated down the stretch and we backed in only to get swept. This is the same thing excet the offense has totally evaporated.

Konerko has got to go and they have to address the middle of the order in a big way.
I still say that we are the best team in the American League. I'm not discrediting the importance of hitting, but pitching is much more important (and harded to come by). We have the best pitching staff in the AL by a wide margin. Only Oakland is close to us, and they aren't a sure bet to be there come October.
The thing you have to look at is the potential our hitters have. We should be a lot better on offense this year, but several guys have had horrible years. Rowand is a .300+ hitter at the major league level, but he has been struggling to find his stroke all year. AJ is a .300 career hitter in the AL, but he is having a horrible offensive year (dont let the homers fool you). Uribe has looked a lot better at the plate lately, and he hasn't gone on a tear yet. He has lots of talent, but the entire year to this point has been a giant slump for him. Everett is hitting .268, and a couple of years ago he was hitting over .300 regularly.
My point is not that we are going to roll uncontested to the championship, but simply that we are much more talented than we have shown this year. Come playoff time, if Rowand is locked in, Uribe is hot, AJ is doing better, and Carl is in the zone, we will be scoring 9 runs a game. I'm not saying that will happen, but we have far too much talent to just dismiss us and say "we dont have the offense to win the pennant."

Flight #24
08-30-2005, 12:32 PM
Just a note, but even if the postseason is a disappointment, and acknowledging that every season can be a crapshoot - this team is structured to be pretty strong next year as well. The best rotation in the game, a bunch of solid players locked up cheap (Pods, ARow, Dye, AJ, Iguchi), and some strong prospects waiting to help or be traded in BMac, Anderson, Sweeney,Young, Gio. Plus a payroll that should see a significant bump after the excitement of this season and the postseason revenues.

An impact player is what they need. That's not easy to get, but even without it, I'd fully expect this team to be in contention at the deadline next year, and that KW will make whatever move he can to get that impact guy in here.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 12:32 PM
I still say that we are the best team in the American League. I'm not discrediting the importance of hitting, but pitching is much more important (and harded to come by). We have the best pitching staff in the AL by a wide margin. Only Oakland is close to us, and they aren't a sure bet to be there come October.
The thing you have to look at is the potential our hitters have. We should be a lot better on offense this year, but several guys have had horrible years. Rowand is a .300+ hitter at the major league level, but he has been struggling to find his stroke all year. AJ is a .300 career hitter in the AL, but he is having a horrible offensive year (dont let the homers fool you). Uribe has looked a lot better at the plate lately, and he hasn't gone on a tear yet. He has lots of talent, but the entire year to this point has been a giant slump for him. Everett is hitting .268, and a couple of years ago he was hitting over .300 regularly.
My point is not that we are going to roll uncontested to the championship, but simply that we are much more talented than we have shown this year. Come playoff time, if Rowand is locked in, Uribe is hot, AJ is doing better, and Carl is in the zone, we will be scoring 9 runs a game. I'm not saying that will happen, but we have far too much talent to just dismiss us and say "we dont have the offense to win the pennant."

This is the most Kool-Aid laden post I have seen in some time. Rowand and AJ and everyone else is a .300 hitter, but they're just hitting <.275 because they haven't found their strokes in what, 130 games?

Rowand has hit .300 once.
AJ hasn't hit .300 in 3 years (IIRC)
Carl of yesteryear ain't the Carl of today.
Konerko has never hit .300

Dye, Crede, Uribe... look at their career numbers, they ain't that far off.

Paulwny
08-30-2005, 12:39 PM
This is the most Kool-Aid laden post I have seen in some time. Rowand and AJ and everyone else is a .300 hitter, but they're just hitting <.275 because they haven't found their strokes in what, 130 games?

Rowand has hit .300 once.
AJ hasn't hit .300 in 3 years (IIRC)
Carl of yesteryear ain't the Carl of today.
Konerko has never hit .300

Dye, Crede, Uribe... look at their career numbers, they ain't that far off.

Totally agree,
After last year pitchers took notice of Rowand, looking for and possibly finding his weak spot., ave is down and hr's are way down.
When you become an offensive threat the pichers' union discusses your out pitch. Rowand needs to sdjust.

Domeshot17
08-30-2005, 12:39 PM
The thing you have to look at is the potential our hitters have. We should be a lot better on offense this year, but several guys have had horrible years. Rowand is a .300+ hitter at the major league level, but he has been struggling to find his stroke all year. AJ is a .300 career hitter in the AL, but he is having a horrible offensive year (dont let the homers fool you). Uribe has looked a lot better at the plate lately, and he hasn't gone on a tear yet. He has lots of talent, but the entire year to this point has been a giant slump for him. Everett is hitting .268, and a couple of years ago he was hitting over .300 regularly



While I agree with you to some extent Old Roman, I think this far into the season you are seeing what you get. Rowand especially I just don't see coming out of his slump soon, because he looks so lost at the plate. You can see with his at bats he is very inbetween his swings. AJ has made a transition from higher average to higher power. Uribe, I think honestly, we saw a flash in the pan more than lightning in the bottle last year. His swing is absolutely atrocious, he is trying to hit everything a mile. Last year he had a much smoother, use all fields approach, while this year he has this falling over looped swing, which is why he has popped out so many times.

Carl, IMO, is a very good no pressure hitter. In Montreal he killed the ball, he was a good hitter on a bad Boston team for a while. His problem also has come from the top of the order. With Pods being out and Timo Perez's OBP lower then the team batting average, if Iguchi does not get on, then Carl see's ALOT of curveballs. He doesnt hit Curveballs well, hes a fastball/hanger hitter, and without people in front of him on baseball, he doesnt see those. someone said it in the post game post best, Carl is a great hitter when there isnt 2 outs in the 9th. Truthfully, that is what scares me. ALCS, bases loaded game 7 bottom 9 and we are down 2, I don't want Carl up. Griffey/Sweeney/Dmitri Young/Ibanez all instill more confidence to me.

pudge
08-30-2005, 12:46 PM
We've known this offense was manure from the very beginning. Now they're just finally proving it.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 12:51 PM
Just a note, but even if the postseason is a disappointment, and acknowledging that every season can be a crapshoot - this team is structured to be pretty strong next year as well. The best rotation in the game, a bunch of solid players locked up cheap (Pods, ARow, Dye, AJ, Iguchi), and some strong prospects waiting to help or be traded in BMac, Anderson, Sweeney,Young, Gio. Plus a payroll that should see a significant bump after the excitement of this season and the postseason revenues.

An impact player is what they need. That's not easy to get, but even without it, I'd fully expect this team to be in contention at the deadline next year, and that KW will make whatever move he can to get that impact guy in here.

I think they have to look at 3B, SS, and 1B if they can via trade. I don't think I can take another year of Konerko's mediocre one-dimensionality...

Bill Mueller, Rafael Furcal, and ??? Who knows. I'm pretty bored today, but looking at the list of FA's, the best ones aside from the 2 I listed are in areas where we aren't hurting as badly.

Frank, Carl and Konerko's contracts are up, even with the buyout of Frank, we have 15 million to spend at a minimum, IMO.

3B:
Mueller

SS:
Furcal
Alex Gonzalez (FLA)
Nomar

1B:
Millar
Konerko
Durazo
Hatteberg (Team Option)
Dmitri Young (Team Option)

OF:
Damon
Jacque Jones (more of a corner OF'er)
Encarnacion
Matt Lawton
Brian Giles


RHSP:
A.J. Burnett
Jeff Weaver

Jason Schmidt (Team Option)
Kevin Millwood


Esteban Loaiza (Mutual Option)
Roger Clemens

LHSP:
Kenny Rogers
Jarrod Washburn


I don't know what to make of it really. I think we are fine in the bullpen and rotation and don't know where to start.

I guess I'd have to start looking at guys like Griffey/Helton in trades. With the OF depth in the system, I'd again explore moving Dye to 1st and/or trading Rowand if that's what it took. The 1B crop is piss-poor and we are also a DH short. I'm fine with Carl at DH if that means we have 1-2 other impactful hitters in the lineup and he's a #5 or 6 hitter.

The order of:
Pods
Furcal
Griffey or Helton
Dye
Iguchi
Carl
Rowand or Brian Anderson
AJ
Crede

Sure looks a hell of a lot better, no?


How much better would we be with Furcal hitting 2nd with Iguchi able to resume his role as a run produces in the #5 or 6 slot?

Of the FA hitters, only guys I like are: Mueller, Furcal, Alex Gonzalez (FLA), Damon, Giles (not coming here), Hatteberg (depending on how else you address the middle of the order)... pretty much it..

Any ideas as to what big-name hitters might be on the market?

Randar68
08-30-2005, 12:54 PM
We've known this offense was manure from the very beginning. Now they're just finally proving it.

It isn't manure when the top of the order is a terror and you have a legit threat in the lineup (Frank)...

Unfortunately, they haven't had either for a full month (oddly coinciding with our slide) and Frank has no chance of return.

Now we're watching Timo and Blum becomde regulars and sure, we suck the pipe when that happens...

TheOldRoman
08-30-2005, 12:58 PM
This is the most Kool-Aid laden post I have seen in some time. Rowand and AJ and everyone else is a .300 hitter, but they're just hitting <.275 because they haven't found their strokes in what, 130 games?

Rowand has hit .300 once.
AJ hasn't hit .300 in 3 years (IIRC)
Carl of yesteryear ain't the Carl of today.
Konerko has never hit .300

Dye, Crede, Uribe... look at their career numbers, they ain't that far off.
Whenever Rowand has been healthy he has hit at the major league level. He is having a poor, frustrating year by his standards. He is a good hitter, and he should be doing much better than he is. Im not saying he will revert to form within the next 2 months, but he certainly has the talent to do so.
AJ is a career .300 hitter in the AL. His last 3 season in the AL his average was .289, .300, and .312 (which was in 2003). It's pretty safe to say he didn't hit his prime at age 26 and is on a downward spiral. He is a good hitter having a bad year.
I didn't mention Konerko at all, and I am not saying that Carl is as good as he was in 2000. I am not even saying that he is as good as he was when he hit .300 for us two years ago. However, he should be hitting better than he is, and he very well may hit better in the playoffs.

My point was that we have more talent than we have shown. Several guys are having the worst years of their career.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 01:04 PM
Whenever Rowand has been healthy has has hit at the major league level. He his having a poor, frustrating year by his standards. He is a good hitter, and he should be doing much better than he is. Im not saying he will revert to form within the next 2 months, but he certainly has to talent to do so.

AJ is a career .300 hitter in the AL. His last 3 season in the AL his average was .289, .300, and .312 (which was in 2003). It's pretty safe to say he didn't hit his prime at age 26 and is on a downward spiral. He is a good hitter having a bad year.

AJ has been a power hitter this year. He has obliterated his career power numbers and it has affected his average. His average is down, power is way up. Not sure how you expect him to suddenly revert. :rolleyes:

Rowand is what he is. Again, he has hit .300 all of one time. Average way down and power WAAAAY down from last year. Guess he's just in a bad groove...

TheOldRoman
08-30-2005, 01:09 PM
AJ has been a power hitter this year. He has obliterated his career power numbers and it has affected his average. His average is down, power is way up. Not sure how you expect him to suddenly revert. :rolleyes:

Rowand is what he is. Again, he has hit .300 all of one time. Average way down and power WAAAAY down from last year. Guess he's just in a bad groove...

Whenever Rowand has been healthy at the major league level, he has hit. No wait, you think he sucks. Let's trade him. The great Randar says he is garbage. Just like the Pat Burrell. One down year means he is done for his career and never was good anyway. Just look at what Burrell is doing this year, he sucks! Rowand's career to this point has been a fluke, and every .300 season he has from this point out will be a fluke.

Soxzilla
08-30-2005, 01:10 PM
Konerko has never hit .300


Konerko has hit .304 in one season, as well as .298 and .294 in two others.

Where do you get your stats?

Randar68
08-30-2005, 01:14 PM
Konerko has hit .304 in one season, as well as .298 and .294 in two others.

Where do you get your stats?

Was just going off the top of my head, thought he had fallen just short of .300 in that .304 season...

Randar68
08-30-2005, 01:15 PM
Whenever Rowand has been healthy at the major league level, he has hit. No wait, you think he sucks. Let's trade him. The great Randar says he is garbage. Just like the Pat Burrell. One down year means he is done for his career and never was good anyway. Just look at what Burrell is doing this year, he sucks! Rowand's career to this point has been a fluke, and every .300 season he has from this point out will be a fluke.

Yes, a .750 OPS CF'er is utterly replaceable...

But no, he crashes into walls, we MUST keep him at all costs...

Randar68
08-30-2005, 01:18 PM
Whenever Rowand has been healthy at the major league level, he has hit. No wait, you think he sucks. Let's trade him. The great Randar says he is garbage. Just like the Pat Burrell. One down year means he is done for his career and never was good anyway. Just look at what Burrell is doing this year, he sucks! Rowand's career to this point has been a fluke, and every .300 season he has from this point out will be a fluke.

BTW, Aaron Rowand's career stats:

.285 avg, .337 OBP, .455 SLG, .791 OPS

The again, I guess we should ignore that and go off of last year alone to predict the next 5 season...

And what in the Hell are you babbling about Pat Burrell for?

what a maroon.

Domeshot17
08-30-2005, 01:25 PM
I like Rowand personally. I think you need to upgrade offensively at core positions, more Power from 3b and better average from SS. You can't have 3 positions of great D and no O, you need a medium at atleast one of them.

In my mind, this grinder thing has come to bite us in the @$$ a little. We have a good 1-6 of grinders when Pods is back, but Carl Uribe and Crede have really hurt us this year. I know everyone will come back and say Many more players have numbers lower then Carls, but You need more out of your 3 hitter. Rowand, for as poor as his offense has been, has saved plenty of games with his D. When your main role is DH, you have 2 jobs, hit and hit well. Carl has been very average at best. If we are to not pick anyone up, He has to step it up more then Crede Uribe and Rowand, because you don't look for offense out of the bottom of your order, you look for them to try and turn the lineup over. You look for the offense from the 3-4-5, and the 3 and the 5 havent been doing it this year.

That being said, Crede and Uribe need to start actually turning that lineup over, because they have been pathetic at the plate this year.

Hangar18
08-30-2005, 01:58 PM
[QUOTE=kittle42][/QUOT

Lawton would have been a valuable pick up


If im not mistaken, the guy the Cubs sent to the Pirates pales in comparison
to the guy the Cubs got from the Yankees for Lawton. The Pirates are such
a bad organization its not even funny .........

TheOldRoman
08-30-2005, 02:18 PM
BTW, Aaron Rowand's career stats:

.285 avg, .337 OBP, .455 SLG, .791 OPS

The again, I guess we should ignore that and go off of last year alone to predict the next 5 season...

And what in the Hell are you babbling about Pat Burrell for?

what a maroon.
Well, Rowand is having a poor year in his second full year, so you assume that he completely sucks and should be replaced. Burrell had a HORRIBLE year in his second full year, followed by a bad 3rd year, and he is back in full force this year. If the Phillies took your shortsighted "what have you done for us lately?" approach, they would have ignored all the potential and ability he showed until that point, and cast away Burrell last year or the year before. How is this year indicative of Rowand but last year wasn't?
By the way, a .285 average is good considering he hit .258 in 2002, and only played in 93 games the next year. Whenever he has played, he has hit.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 02:21 PM
By the way, a .285 average is good considering he hit .258 in 2002, and only played in 93 games the next year. Whenever he has played, he has hit.

BTW, it also includes every major league at-bat he's had, good and bad.

TheOldRoman
08-30-2005, 02:22 PM
BTW, it also includes every major league at-bat he's had, good and bad.
I realize that, I am just saying that 2002 skews his numbers.

SoxFan76
08-30-2005, 02:30 PM
A lot of guys on the Sox offense aren't playing up to their potential. Crede, Uribe, Pierzynski, Everett...and I hate to say it, but I think when THAT many guys are underachieving, you have to blame it on coaching.

AJ's power numbers are up, sure. But his average is waaay down. That's not normal.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 02:32 PM
I realize that, I am just saying that 2002 skews his numbers.

As does 2004.

TheOldRoman
08-30-2005, 02:38 PM
As does 2004.
Either that or it was part of a continual rise in batting statistics. 2004 was his second full year, and he improved his batting average over every other year. It's not like 2004 was a ridiculous outlier, like if Crede were to hit .330 next year. He has showed progress every year until this year.

MIgrenade
08-30-2005, 02:39 PM
How much longer do we have to hear about how bad the offense is and how the Sox need help now? EVERYONE KNOWS THAT! And everyone should also know that KW can't make a trade because other people won't let him. These threads are annoying to no end. In ONE off season this team completely switched from one style of baseball to another and for every hitter they lost they got a better pitcher in return. What the hell do you guys want?
The Yankees have been through FOURTEEN starting pitchers this year. Would that make you happier if the Sox could have that offense?
This is a team full of 1,2,6,7,8,9 hitters, there really aren't any 3,4,5 hitters except PK who is a fine 5 hitter.
Nothing is going to change and if the Sox don't go far in the playoffs remember that they will still have the best pitching staff next year without making any moves, especially if Contreras has turned a corner.

Sorry, but I couldn't take it anymore.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 02:45 PM
How much longer do we have to hear about how bad the offense is and how the Sox need help now? EVERYONE KNOWS THAT!

Then don't read it, fool! It says basically what it's about in the thread title. Are you too dense to skip it?

And everyone should also know that KW can't make a trade because other people won't let him.

Ok, that's not true, no matter how much you'd like to believe it. Not having a trading partner does not equate to others not allowing it. If a player has already cleared waivers, other teams can't do jack **** about the Sox claiming him and trying to work out a deal. He doesn't have to re-clear waivers.

In ONE off season this team completely switched from one style of baseball to another and for every hitter they lost they got a better pitcher in return. What the hell do you guys want?

We've had problems with injuries and the middle of our lineup has been sucking the pipe for a while now. How about getting a few runs and getting guys in from 2nd base with <2 outs? Is that too much to ask?

Oh, and we tried to get help at the deadline and nothing came to fruition. You don't think KW's still trying up to the last minute? YES, everyone knows we need help... THAT'S WHY WE'RE SPECULATING ON IT, GENIUS!

TaylorStSox
08-30-2005, 02:47 PM
I like Rowand personally. I think you need to upgrade offensively at core positions, more Power from 3b and better average from SS. You can't have 3 positions of great D and no O, you need a medium at atleast one of them.

In my mind, this grinder thing has come to bite us in the @$$ a little. We have a good 1-6 of grinders when Pods is back, but Carl Uribe and Crede have really hurt us this year. I know everyone will come back and say Many more players have numbers lower then Carls, but You need more out of your 3 hitter. Rowand, for as poor as his offense has been, has saved plenty of games with his D. When your main role is DH, you have 2 jobs, hit and hit well. Carl has been very average at best. If we are to not pick anyone up, He has to step it up more then Crede Uribe and Rowand, because you don't look for offense out of the bottom of your order, you look for them to try and turn the lineup over. You look for the offense from the 3-4-5, and the 3 and the 5 havent been doing it this year.

That being said, Crede and Uribe need to start actually turning that lineup over, because they have been pathetic at the plate this year.

Everett has 8 RBI's less than Konerko in 75 fewer AB's. He's the problem? LOL.

Flight #24
08-30-2005, 02:49 PM
Ok, that's not true, no matter how much you'd like to believe it. Not having a trading partner does not equate to others not allowing it. If a player has already cleared waivers, other teams can't do jack **** about the Sox claiming him and trying to work out a deal. He doesn't have to re-clear waivers.



FWIW, I think he was saying other teams won't allow KW to make a trade because they're not willing to deal their guys, not because they're somehow blocking.

I do have a question on your wording. I heard yesterday from Levineline that a player remains on waivers and anyone can now claim them. I see it again in your wording above. If they want to , could the Sox not claim Griffey to show that they're serious about taking him and being willing to take on his whole deal (which isn't all that bad in reality)? Just wondering if that could give a little kick to thewhole thing by forcing the Reds to actually do something.

I realize that this would have been more of a real factor were it done a week ago because there's already a hard deadline of tomorrow night. But it seems the Reds are just not acting/responding to anything, not that they're shooting down KW's advances. This at least would ensure a response.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 02:51 PM
FWIW, I think he was saying other teams won't allow KW to make a trade because they're not willing to deal their guys, not because they're somehow blocking.

I do have a question on your wording. I heard yesterday from Levineline that a player remains on waivers and anyone can now claim them. I see it again in your wording above. If they want to , could the Sox not claim Griffey to show that they're serious about taking him and being willing to take on his whole deal (which isn't all that bad in reality)? Just wondering if that could give a little kick to thewhole thing by forcing the Reds to actually do something.

Sure, the Sox could claim him. here in the last hours, I would hope they did, although there is usually a gentleman's agreement between teams not to frivolously claim players without having contact or the feeling that you will actually be able to finalize a deal in the 48 hours (IIRC) they have after being claimed to do so... Unless of course a team is blocking another from doing something.

DrGiggles
08-30-2005, 02:57 PM
Going back to orginal post, has a thought ever gone through your mind that KW is trying his best at getting anyone he can, but they're not budging. I don't think he'd sit on his ass and not make a big push. He doesn't want to have this great season go to waste on a sweep in the playoffs. We have to give him trust and know he is doing everything in his power to get someone, but I do believe that this Griffey talk is hurting our chances to get another playing, because we're waiting on an answer from the Reds. Go Sox.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 02:59 PM
Going back to orginal post, has a thought ever gone through your mind that KW is trying his best at getting anyone he can, but they're not budging. I don't think he'd sit on his ass and not make a big push. He doesn't want to have this great season go to waste on a sweep in the playoffs. We have to give him trust and know he is doing everything in his power to get someone, but I do believe that this Griffey talk is hurting our chances to get another playing, because we're waiting on an answer from the Reds. Go Sox.

I know with a fair amount of certainty that KW is not sitting on his ass. However, I just don't see them getting anything significant done by the deadline. It's not for a lack of trying.

TheOldRoman
08-30-2005, 03:03 PM
Sure, the Sox could claim him. here in the last hours, I would hope they did, although there is usually a gentleman's agreement between teams not to frivolously claim players without having contact or the feeling that you will actually be able to finalize a deal in the 48 hours (IIRC) they have after being claimed to do so... Unless of course a team is blocking another from doing something.
Wait, so after a player has cleared waivers, a team can still put in a claim for him? :?:

Randar68
08-30-2005, 03:06 PM
Wait, so after a player has cleared waivers, a team can still put in a claim for him? :?:

That is how it works. Any team can still claim any player, but priorities based on the standings no longer apply. First-come, first-served. Teams then have 48 hours (IIRC) to negotiate a trade before the team owning the player has a right to pull them back off waivers (one-time deal) and cancel any transaction or let the player go for nothing.

Madvora
08-30-2005, 03:22 PM
OK, so how does Griffey's no-trade clause effect him being claimed off of waivers? If he has a list of teams that he has agreed to be traded to, then what if one of the other teams claimed him. Is that counted in a no-trade clause?

Ol' No. 2
08-30-2005, 03:31 PM
OK, so how does Griffey's no-trade clause effect him being claimed off of waivers? If he has a list of teams that he has agreed to be traded to, then what if one of the other teams claimed him. Is that counted in a no-trade clause?Griffey doesn't need a no-trade clause. He's a 10-5 player (10 years in the league and 5 with his current team). His contract cannot be assigned to another club without his approval. That applies to trades or waiver claims.

MIgrenade
08-30-2005, 03:43 PM
Then don't read it, fool! It says basically what it's about in the thread title. Are you too dense to skip it?

Usually I do, but why should I continue to ignore it when these threads pop up every day when nothing is happening? There are tons of threads like this, why continue to make new ones?

Ok, that's not true, no matter how much you'd like to believe it. Not having a trading partner does not equate to others not allowing it. If a player has already cleared waivers, other teams can't do jack **** about the Sox claiming him and trying to work out a deal. He doesn't have to re-clear waivers.

I don't even know what this is trying to say. I'm fully aware of the rules of waiver deals but when an ownership group isn't allowing a trade, doesn't THAT constitute other people? And how do you know what has been blocked and what hasn't been? Griffey may not have been but you don't who else has been. For example, though I doubt this is the case, what if KW was thinking of Soriano for a DH? He got blocked by the Twins.

We've had problems with injuries and the middle of our lineup has been sucking the pipe for a while now. How about getting a few runs and getting guys in from 2nd base with <2 outs? Is that too much to ask?

As I stated, this team has no real 3,4,5 hitters that can do that, but the Sox do have pitching that can shut down other teams. How many teams have the complete package this year? Close to none? You might have to try taking the good with the bad this year.

Oh, and we tried to get help at the deadline and nothing came to fruition. You don't think KW's still trying up to the last minute? YES, everyone knows we need help... THAT'S WHY WE'RE SPECULATING ON IT, GENIUS!

This thread isn't really speculating. This is a rehash of a whole bunch of threads that have come across in the past month. Nothing new is really coming from it. Furthermore, there is nothing about my post indicating that I think KW has stopped trying.
I guess you could have just as easily ignored my post, but instead I seemed to have pissed you off despite agreeing with you almost completely. But I guess since you are the barer of great intellect in the universe I will slink away until something actually happens that changes the makeup of this team.

Madvora
08-30-2005, 04:17 PM
Anyone have the actual time of day that the deadline hits tomorrow?

Flight #24
08-30-2005, 04:21 PM
Anyone have the actual time of day that the deadline hits tomorrow?

IIRC 11CST / 12EST (midnight)

Madvora
08-30-2005, 04:35 PM
Man, this thing is reall dragging out.

Flight #24
08-30-2005, 11:20 PM
I know with a fair amount of certainty that KW is not sitting on his ass. However, I just don't see them getting anything significant done by the deadline. It's not for a lack of trying.

WARNING: The following is a crackpot idea that came into my head and is not something I've myself figured out if I'd support.....

Do you even consider for a second calling up the Reds and offering up Garland for Griffey+cash? The rationale would go like this:

- For the playoffs, you'd still have Buehrle, Garcia, Duque, and a suddenly dominant Contreras. But you'd add an impact bat.
- For the rest of the season, you'd start McCarthy, and you'd have Griffey, so it would be as unlikely or more unlikely that you'd miss the playoffs.
- For next year, you slot the 4 current SPs + McCarthy
- You save an arb award of likely $6mil or more (or the similar amount on a long-term deal), which enables you to keep Konerko and go get another bat at 3B or SS.

My gut tells me no, but IMO you can make the argument that a playoff rotation that replaces Garland with Contreras but adds a swap of Griffey for Everett on the offensive side is stronger than what we'd throw out there right now.

Chisox003
08-30-2005, 11:22 PM
WARNING: The following is a crackpot idea that came into my head and is not something I've myself figured out if I'd support.....

Do you even consider for a second calling up the Reds and offering up Garland for Griffey+cash? The rationale would go like this:

- For the playoffs, you'd still have Buehrle, Garcia, Duque, and a suddenly dominant Contreras. But you'd add an impact bat.
- For the rest of the season, you'd start McCarthy, and you'd have Griffey, so it would be as unlikely or more unlikely that you'd miss the playoffs.
- For next year, you slot the 4 current SPs + McCarthy
- You save an arb award of likely $6mil or more (or the similar amount on a long-term deal), which enables you to keep Konerko and go get another bat at 3B or SS.

My gut tells me no, but IMO you can make the argument that a playoff rotation that replaces Garland with Contreras but adds a swap of Griffey for Everett on the offensive side is stronger than what we'd throw out there right now.

Crackpot idea is putting it lightly Flight....

That's damn near insane

Anyway, good news from Big Hurt land tonight.....Ohhh man how sweet would that be? :gulp:

Domeshot17
08-30-2005, 11:25 PM
Garland NO, Contreras Yes.

Contreras stock is higher with every good start, but I think he could be erractic his entire career. You figure next year someone has to go to make room for B MAc, and Financially he brings down the most. IF we dealt him for Griffey, the money would be num, and a combo of say Contreras and Young might just get it done.

JermaineDye05
08-30-2005, 11:35 PM
Crackpot idea is putting it lightly Flight....

That's damn near insane

Anyway, good news from Big Hurt land tonight.....Ohhh man how sweet would that be? :gulp:

which big frank would it be if it happened, sure the intimidation is there, but is the production there

gf2020
08-30-2005, 11:35 PM
WARNING: The following is a crackpot idea that came into my head and is not something I've myself figured out if I'd support.....

Do you even consider for a second calling up the Reds and offering up Garland for Griffey+cash? The rationale would go like this:

- For the playoffs, you'd still have Buehrle, Garcia, Duque, and a suddenly dominant Contreras. But you'd add an impact bat.
- For the rest of the season, you'd start McCarthy, and you'd have Griffey, so it would be as unlikely or more unlikely that you'd miss the playoffs.
- For next year, you slot the 4 current SPs + McCarthy
- You save an arb award of likely $6mil or more (or the similar amount on a long-term deal), which enables you to keep Konerko and go get another bat at 3B or SS.

My gut tells me no, but IMO you can make the argument that a playoff rotation that replaces Garland with Contreras but adds a swap of Griffey for Everett on the offensive side is stronger than what we'd throw out there right now.

Wow. I really like this idea even though you, the creator of it, has doubts.

I am a big Garland fan especially with how long we've had to wait for him, but I am not sold that his five potential postseason starts would be better than Contreras' five potential postseason starts.

It would be a huge gamble and leave Kenny open to a ton of criticism, but I think that both sides would have to do it.

Alas, it's just a made up scenario.

Randar68
08-30-2005, 11:48 PM
Garland NO, Contreras Yes.

Contreras stock is higher with every good start, but I think he could be erractic his entire career. You figure next year someone has to go to make room for B MAc, and Financially he brings down the most. IF we dealt him for Griffey, the money would be num, and a combo of say Contreras and Young might just get it done.

If you are going to add a legit big league pitcher and Cinci isn't taking on additional salary, I have a hard time adding Young into this one...

Letmehearya
08-30-2005, 11:48 PM
I've said this before, if not Griffey then why not shore up the team with a Mackowiak to play 3d or Vizquel to play SS. No they're not superstars but they are upgrades. Joe Crede, I read, hit .103 in August. Even when Aurelio Rodriguez was a defensive replacement at 3d, he hit .90 points higher. Joe ............................

:hawk (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=18#)

HE GONE FEISTY!

Flight #24
08-31-2005, 01:37 AM
Garland NO, Contreras Yes.

Contreras stock is higher with every good start, but I think he could be erractic his entire career. You figure next year someone has to go to make room for B MAc, and Financially he brings down the most. IF we dealt him for Griffey, the money would be num, and a combo of say Contreras and Young might just get it done.

I like that a lot better, but I'm not sure that would get it done. Being 25, Garland's got a lot more value. Which of course is what makes it so much harder to do.

Flight #24
08-31-2005, 01:49 AM
Something else I was just thinking about in terms of the Sox ability to go deep in the playoffs. Looking at the other contenders:

NYY: Have some horrible pitching. Randy's missing starts right & left, Mussina's now got a sore elbow, and the rest are plain crap. That bodes well for the Sox if Podsednik's somewhere between what we got out of him in August and what we got out of him pre-August.

BOS: Similar pitching issues, but relief issues as well. Schilling does not look good, Clement's not a playoff shutdown kind of guy (at least not yet), and their pen is desperately hoping that the Foulke they saw earlier this year is gone and that he can be the guy they had last year and do it damn quick.

LAA: Injury problems, and outside of Colon, their rotation isn't scaring anyone. But more problematic than the first 2

OAK: Similar offensive problems as the Sox. Similar pitching strength, albiet without the playoff experience that we have in Duque & Garcia (Zito being their only guy).

Outside of our general malaise when facing Oakland, which isn't really that well explained, none of these teams have the combination of #1 and 2 starters and an offense that makes them head & shoulders better than the Sox.

This is an odd year. That was true at the trading deadline, and it'll likely be true in the playoffs where there may not be a single team with true stud pitching and a good offense. The perfect year for the oddest thing of all - a Chicago title!

Madvora
08-31-2005, 08:11 AM
For all the crakpots out there, don't forget that neither Garland nor Contreras have passed through waivers. So you can completely rule that out.

Jjav829
08-31-2005, 09:08 AM
Something else I was just thinking about in terms of the Sox ability to go deep in the playoffs. Looking at the other contenders:

NYY: Have some horrible pitching. Randy's missing starts right & left, Mussina's now got a sore elbow, and the rest are plain crap. That bodes well for the Sox if Podsednik's somewhere between what we got out of him in August and what we got out of him pre-August.


:?:

RJ has missed two starts all year long and is on pace for 33 starts and 223 innings. He's had some nagging injuries all year long, but he has consistently pitched every 5th day with only two exceptions.

Jjav829
08-31-2005, 09:11 AM
For all the crakpots out there, don't forget that neither Garland nor Contreras have passed through waivers. So you can completely rule that out.

According to Gammons; Buehrle, Garland and Garcia have all cleared waivers. Considering Contreras' contract, it's likely that if he has been put on waivers, he probably cleared.

Hangar18
08-31-2005, 09:24 AM
I know with a fair amount of certainty that KW is not sitting on his ass. ............................ It's not for a lack of trying.


Bruce Levineline confirmed this exact sentiment recently on the radio, commenting that the SOX did indeed have 2 deals done (I was roasted)
but he is trying thats for sure ....

Mohoney
08-31-2005, 09:47 AM
I've said this before, if not Griffey then why not shore up the team with a Mackowiak to play 3d or Vizquel to play SS.

Mackowiak was claimed and subsequently withdrawn. Not sure on Vizquel.

Flight #24
08-31-2005, 10:10 AM
:?:

RJ has missed two starts all year long and is on pace for 33 starts and 223 innings. He's had some nagging injuries all year long, but he has consistently pitched every 5th day with only two exceptions.

Busted! :redface:

I didn't check stats, just went off my recollection that he missed a start or 2 around the Sox-Yanks series. Still, he hasn't exactly been dominant. A 4.2ERA and 12 wins with a great offense. He, like Schilling is scary in the postseason because of their history, but if you look at this year's performance, they ain't scaring anybody.

harwar
08-31-2005, 10:52 AM
If we face the yankees in the post-season an "El Duque' - randy johnson matchup might be interesting.

SoxSpeed22
08-31-2005, 11:06 AM
Here I am thinkin' that we are gonna get no one, but then I realize, there are 31 days in August not 30. We still have 13 hours before we get to dark cloud, so I won't pay attention until something happens.

mdep524
08-31-2005, 11:36 AM
I've said this before, if not Griffey then why not shore up the team with a Mackowiak to play 3d or Vizquel to play SS. No they're not superstars but they are upgrades. Joe Crede, I read, hit .103 in August. Even when Aurelio Rodriguez was a defensive replacement at 3d, he hit .90 points higher. Joe ............................ I'm pretty sure Mackowiak didn't make it through waivers.. but Omar Vizquel is THE perfect pick up for this team. There is no public knowledge of whether Vizquel passed through, or was even placed on waivers, so who knows if the deal is a possibility. But I hope it's being explored.