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View Full Version : Don't look back! (An antidote)


TommyJohn
08-25-2005, 11:40 AM
I just noticed something. Everyone is annoyed as hell with all
these comparisons between the 2005 Sox and the all-time choke
job 1969 Cubs. I don't blame them. It seems that the Cub-centric
media can't go one sentence in a White Sox article without mentioning
the beloved ones. I don't know why this is, maybe they're mad or
something. And they accuse Sox fans of being obsessed with the Cubs?
The "obsessive" ones of our rank look perfectly sane and normal compared
to these jokers. The comparisons to 1969 are especially a joke. I mean,
are there no WHITE SOX teams hold up in comparison? I mean, I know
there are idiots in the media rooting for a big collapse, but come on!
Show a little respect for OUR favorite team,at long last! The "magic
number" blurb in the Sun-Times containing the comparison to the 1969
Cubs record at this point (along with the smarmy little blurb "don't look
back") was the absolute clincher. (No pun intended.)

I offer an alternative. I'll compare the 2005 Sox to WHITE SOX teams
of the past. I realize that the past is for cowards and losers, but that
applies only to people who live in it, not those who love to study and
learn from it.

I have decided to start with 1959, the last Sox pennant year and
proceed with years that they defended a title (1960, 1984) or had a
great run. (1964, 1967.) I realize that going before 1969 is a risk,
since the world began for the Chicago Sports Media that year, but
I'll do it. After all,there were some people on planet earth before that
magical, mystical year. I also realize that 1969 was the ultimate
heartbreak to end all heartbreaks and that no pain in the world can
compare to their pain,even 1964, 1967 or any other year. Still, Sox
fans have had their share. We just don't write poems or songs about
it. (Maybe we should.)

I'll even include years where they actually won a title! WOW! Imagine
that! Comparing the 2005 Sox to past Sox teams that actually won at
least SOMETHING! What a concept! Brilliant! I won't break my arm patting
myself on the back. It took very little brain power to think up this thread.
I am just thankfully not a Chicago Sports Media assclown. All records will
be after games played on this date, August 25th and are from
www.retrosheet.org (http://www.retrosheet.org/). Enjoy.

1959 75-48 GA 2 1st
1960 69-52 GB 1.5 3rd
1964 77-51 GB 1 2nd
1967 70-55 GB 0.5 2nd
1972 69-48 GA 1 1st
1977 70-54 GB 3 2nd
1983 70-56 GA 7.5 1st
1984 61-66 GB 6.5 4th
1990 73-51 GB 5 2nd
1991 67-57 GB 7 2nd
1993 69-56 GA 3.5 1st
1996 70-62 GB 8 2nd wild card: GA 1.5 1st
2000 76-52 GA 8 1st
2001 64-64 GB 7.5 3rd
2003 69-62 GA 1 1st

There you have it. Evey year since 1959 that they played well, contended,
won or defended a title. And not one mention of 1969. There now, Chicago
Sports Media Assclowns, that wasn't so very hard was it? Or was it?

SouthSide_HitMen
08-25-2005, 11:45 AM
I just noticed something. Everyone is annoyed as hell with all these comparisons between the 2005 Sox and the all-time choke job 1969 Cubs.
I don't blame them. It seems that the Cub-centric media can't go one sentence in a White Sox article without mentioning the beloved ones.

One sometimes clown flips the rest of the media the bird.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/roeper/cst-nws-roep23.html

See you in October: These Sox aren't the '69 Cubs


August 23, 2005 BY RICHARD ROEPER (rroeper@suntimes.com) SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Iwritecode
08-25-2005, 11:50 AM
One sometimes clown flips the rest of the media the bird.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/roeper/cst-nws-roep23.html

See you in October: These Sox aren't the '69 Cubs


August 23, 2005 BY RICHARD ROEPER (rroeper@suntimes.com) SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

It's amazing to see that at least one newspaper in town remembers what it's like to write positive articles for a hometown team when they are doing well...

Hangar18
08-25-2005, 11:50 AM
I was going to start this thread yesterday, but didnt everyone thinking
I was going way overboard/dark cloud etc. The radio talk shows, the media, the papers were ALLLLLL bringing up 1969 and nonsense like that,
talking about how big a Choke this would be if we blew it. Nothing really
centered on what some of the reasons for this slump being, but what would
happen should this happen. I hate the media ...........

SouthSide_HitMen
08-25-2005, 11:55 AM
It's amazing to see that at least one newspaper in town remembers what it's like to write positive articles for a hometown team when they are doing well...

This is because Roeper is a White Sox season ticket holder and also does not write a sports column.

The Cub Times and Cubune sports writers are circle jerks who hate the Sox, hate JR and love to tear them down.

This is why I go here and elsewhere for White Sox (and all other) news.

The Daliy Southtown is the only decent local paper for Sox coverage.

miker
08-25-2005, 11:56 AM
Uh-oh! If he's not careful, Roeper won't be invited to any elite Chicago media parties...

LVSoxFan
08-25-2005, 12:12 PM
I actually emailed Roeper yesterday after his article and said he's dreaming that we'll be fine if we don't get Griffey, LOL.

Anyhoo, if we somehow don't win the division I would hardly call that the biggest choke in history; it means we had a crappy 2nd half. If I'm not mistaken, we're 16-18 since the ASB. The only reason we're still in first is that we built up such an insane lead going into the ASB.

I'm not so sure that all this choke and '69 talk is Sox-hate as it is typical Chicago curse thinking. After all, there's only one team that's not won the big dance for longer than the Cubs: us. So what do you expect Chicago media's gonna talk about as we start to go wobbly as the season winds down?

You may also recall that in recent years, the slide usually begins in September. Last year the wheels fell off in August, so we got down to blowing it early, LOL. But I remember Loaiza's great year and how once September showed up, everything collapsed. Last year it arguably started with the Torii Hunter game.

Let everybody worry about it! It just means that everybody will be pleasantly surprised come October. And Cub fans can eat that when it happens, although I assure you: they will cheering for us to lose every single playoff game that we're in.

Plus, the Cubs are the masters of the choke, including the greatest in all-time Chicago history: the 5-outs away from the World Series choke. That is unmatched by anybody, and probably never will be. Then there was last year, where their final two-week collapse would be considered the biggest... were it not for the year before and the Bartman Inning.

BTW the Sun-Times is now running a daily box comparing us at this point to the '69 Cubs. I have to admit: the records/leads are virtually identical. Creepy. However, I do think that team is genuinely cursed whereas we've just had bad management for years (mostly JR until recently).

But I don't mind the cursed talk--this is Chicago after all. Home of the sadass Cubs, the not-since-1917 Sox, the Grossman "He Gone!" Bears, the Hope You Enjoyed the Jordan Years Bulls, and the Worst Franchise Ever Blackhawks.

RedHeadPaleHoser
08-25-2005, 07:14 PM
This is because Roeper is a White Sox season ticket holder and also does not write a sports column.

The Cub Times and Cubune sports writers are circle jerks who hate the Sox, hate JR and love to tear them down.

This is why I go here and elsewhere for White Sox (and all other) news.

The Daliy Southtown is the only decent local paper for Sox coverage.

So, because Roeper's a ticket holder, does that mean he doesn't get the right to express his opinion? To be quite candid, I'd prefer someone with a vested interest being honest. Roeper might be a Sox fan, but he's written articles in the past that were not too flattering...but HONEST. The reason he's so readable is that he IS honest - Sox tickets or no Sox tickets.

If Couch Potato or Moronotti had to pay to get into games, I'd bet they'd be a bit more objective. Wait, that would require common sense. My bad.

MIgrenade
08-25-2005, 07:26 PM
What distiguishes the White Sox from other teams in baseball is they have never really choked...at least not in the regular season. Why can't people be proud of that kind of tradition. I guess consistency isn't good enough.

RallyBowl
08-25-2005, 07:27 PM
Now that's what I call great journalism!

PeteWard
08-25-2005, 08:36 PM
It's amazing to see that at least one newspaper in town remembers what it's like to write positive articles for a hometown team when they are doing well...

:?: Whoa! The Sun Times' columnists have been much worse than even the Trib lately with their negativity--this Roeper column is the exception.

SOX ADDICT '73
08-25-2005, 09:46 PM
After all, there's only one team that's not won the big dance for longer than the Cubs: us.
Last time I checked, 1917 came after 1908.

No one has "not won the big dance for longer than the Cubs."

samram
08-25-2005, 09:53 PM
Well, the reason the 1969 Cubs shouldn't be mentioned in connection with this Sox team is if this team were to blow this (and they won't), Sox fans wouldn't be celebrating this season forty years from now. How pathetic is it that a fandom would celebrate a team that finished 8 games out of first place?

FarWestChicago
08-25-2005, 09:57 PM
After all, there's only one team that's not won the big dance for longer than the Cubs: us.Wow, your Dark Cloud has crept so far into your brain you are altering history. :rolleyes:

doogiec
08-25-2005, 10:02 PM
Another little fact that the media ignores is the history of teams that are 8 games up or more on this date (8/25).

Since the beginning of divisional play in 1969, only one team with a lead of 8 games or greater on 8/25 has failed to make the playoffs. That team was the 1995 California Angels of California. And even that aberration is a little off, since the season started a month late that year.

Granted anything can happen, but this collapse is a real longshot.

Letmehearya
08-25-2005, 10:52 PM
Roeper's always been a Sox fan and wrote a column in the early '90's that tore the cub myth apart.

elrod
08-25-2005, 11:09 PM
Another little fact that the media ignores is the history of teams that are 8 games up or more on this date (8/25).

Since the beginning of divisional play in 1969, only one team with a lead of 8 games or greater on 8/25 has failed to make the playoffs. That team was the 1995 California Angels of California. And even that aberration is a little off, since the season started a month late that year.

Granted anything can happen, but this collapse is a real longshot.

Their distance to the end of the season was the same, though. If you look at the games after 8/20, when they went on their big slide, their pitching absolutely fell apart. They finished the season 12-26, while Seattle went 26-13. That is probably the worst choke in modern history.

Ol' No. 2
08-25-2005, 11:29 PM
Their distance to the end of the season was the same, though. If you look at the games after 8/20, when they went on their big slide, their pitching absolutely fell apart. They finished the season 12-26, while Seattle went 26-13. That is probably the worst choke in modern history.I'm sure that honor has to go to the 1951 Brooklyn Dodgers. On August 11 they stood at 70-36 and the NY Giants were a distant 13 games back at 59-51. The Giants finished the season a breathtaking 37-7 and tied the Dodgers on the 152nd game of the season. They subsequently won a 3-game playoff on Bobby Thompson's famous home run.

Unregistered
08-25-2005, 11:43 PM
if we somehow don't win the division I would hardly call that the biggest choke in history; it means we had a crappy 2nd half. If I'm not mistaken, we're 16-18 since the ASB. The only reason we're still in first is that we built up such an insane lead going into the ASB.19-18 since the All-Star break.

Lip Man 1
08-25-2005, 11:43 PM
The biggest choke in modern history was the 1964 Phillies. Just two weeks to go... they had a sizable lead (six games??) and somehow, someway blew it.

Lip

SouthSide_HitMen
08-26-2005, 12:06 AM
The biggest choke in modern history was the 1964 Phillies. Just two weeks to go... they had a sizable lead (six games??) and somehow, someway blew it.

Lip

I have to go against you on that - The biggest choke in modern history was the DePaul Blue Demons #1 ranked team in the country losing to St. Joes after their first round NCAA tourney bye in 1981 49-48 (the year Bobby Knight's Indiana squad led by Isiah Thomas spanked Dean Smith 63 - 50 for the title!!!).

Though I agree on the baseball front the 1964 Phillies was the worst.

The worst Sox "choke" was getting swept in their doubleheader in KC followed by getting swept by the Senators at home in the very close 1967 pennant race. If we went 3-2 against those bottom feeders we tie for the pennant, 4-1 we go to the World Series.

FarWestChicago
08-26-2005, 12:19 AM
19-18 since the All-Star break.OK, LVSoxFan has reached complete MORON level with yet another egregious factual error growing out of his crushing depression. LVSoxFan, get some better meds. You are making a complete fool of yourself. :rolleyes:

doogiec
08-26-2005, 06:27 AM
Their distance to the end of the season was the same, though. If you look at the games after 8/20, when they went on their big slide, their pitching absolutely fell apart. They finished the season 12-26, while Seattle went 26-13. That is probably the worst choke in modern history.

You're correct about the distance to the end being about the same. And this gives a good example of how unlikely this choke would be. Despite playing .315 ball the last five weeks of the season, the Angels only finished one game out of first, and 1 1/2 out of the wild card. On August 25th they had a 8.5 game lead.

Looking at the White Sox schedule, can anyone imagine them losing 2 out of 3 until the beginning of October? Even KC has been winning at a higher pace this year, fresh off a ridiculous losing streak.

Everyone needs to quit looking for reasons to worry about the Sox not making the playoffs and direct all their negativism towards the playoffs itself. This team will be in the playoffs.

soxrme
08-26-2005, 10:32 AM
When we clinch everyone should e-mail Eric Zorn at the cubune and let him have it for the stupid column the other day which ended with him and his neighbor enjoying the losing streak.:bandance:

LVSoxFan
08-26-2005, 11:05 AM
Last time I checked, 1917 came after 1908.

No one has "not won the big dance for longer than the Cubs."

Sorry. I meant to say for almost as long as...

elrod
08-26-2005, 11:45 AM
The 1964 Phillies choke was the worst in the final 2 weeks. The 1951 Dodgers was the worst choke for the second half. The 1995 Angels was the worst choke from late August on.

TDog
08-26-2005, 12:31 PM
On the optimistic side, I just heard Bob Stroud, streaming WDRV, say after playing Queen's "We Are the Champions," say, "Yeah, 8 games up on the Cleveland Indians, we still are."

VenturaSoxFan23
08-26-2005, 12:46 PM
Other stations know there's another team in town? Anytime I hear the Loop for a sizable amount of time, they talk about how the Cubs are slumping.

Railsplitter
08-27-2005, 07:39 AM
Some much needed perspective.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-27-2005, 08:45 AM
The biggest choke in modern history was the 1964 Phillies. Just two weeks to go... they had a sizable lead (six games??) and somehow, someway blew it.

Lip

How did Philadelphia blow it? That's easy. Gene Mauch completely panicked.



Pitchers starting on short rest
Overused relief pitchers.
Steady hitters all season long suddenly benched.
Does this sound familiar? It ought to. There were at least a dozen doubters on this message board earlier this week jumping in the lifeboats with The Long-Time Manager with the Worst W-L record ever: Gene Mauch.

How that guy kept getting managerial jobs is beyond me. He must have brown-nosed his way around an awful lot of owners.

Dan H
08-27-2005, 11:00 AM
I really don't want to compare the White Sox to any other team that choked away a big lead. This is 2005, not 1969 or 1964. There are no comparisons except any team with a big lead has the capability of finding themselves sitting at home during the playoffs if they think they can rest on their laurels.

I was extremely nervous during the losing streak because of two things: Chicago baseball teams have had a long history of finding ways to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory and I'm human. I never like experiencing or feel like I am experiencing the same thing all over again, especially if it is awful. For me, the seven game streak felt like the offenisve collapse in the '83 playoffs and that was no fun.

Meanwhile, the Sox need to stay sharp because the Indians are showing no signs of slowing down. If they take nothing for granted, they will be all right. I just hope there is no repeat of that terrible offensive slump. Any reminders of the '83 playoffs will only give me nightmares.

jackbrohamer
08-27-2005, 11:21 AM
I really don't want to compare the White Sox to any other team that choked away a big lead. This is 2005, not 1969 or 1964. There are no comparisons except any team with a big lead has the capability of finding themselves sitting at home during the playoffs if they think they can rest on their laurels.

I have no idea why it's acceptable for the local media to almost be pulling for the Sox to choke. I don't recall this ever happening with any other local team.