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SouthSide_HitMen
08-22-2005, 06:17 PM
Since ESPN omitted the Chicago White Sox from their poll, who is the greatest player in Chicago White Sox History?

DumpJerry
08-22-2005, 06:25 PM
You forgot to include Joe Jackson.

SouthSide_HitMen
08-22-2005, 06:28 PM
You forgot to include Joe Jackson.

No I passed. My criteria was 10 + full seasons with the Chicago White Sox and a majority of your MLB career with the Chicago White Sox. Joe Jackson failed on both counts.

buehrle4cy05
08-22-2005, 06:30 PM
I went for Frank, mainly because he leads the Sox in nearly every offensive category outside of stolen bases.

ShoelessJoeS
08-22-2005, 06:36 PM
No I passed.

I guess I'll vote for Frank then :cool:

MarySwiss
08-22-2005, 06:43 PM
This poll is a great idea. I'd suggest sending the results to ESPN, but what would be the point?

And I voted for Frank because I honestly think--given your criteria--that he's the best. But I do kind of wonder if the fact that he's the only active--well, sorta--Sox player on the list might skew the results.

CubsfansareDRUNK
08-22-2005, 06:51 PM
:threadrules:
I voted for Nellie Fox

DumpJerry
08-22-2005, 06:52 PM
No I passed. My criteria was 10 + full seasons with the Chicago White Sox and a majority of your MLB career with the Chicago White Sox. Joe Jackson failed on both counts.
Ouch. I won't go any further, it's your poll, but keep in mind why he did not do 10+ full seasons.

SOXintheBURGH
08-22-2005, 06:54 PM
Wow.. such an honor to bestow on just one man.. this is the Sox we are talking about.


My vote went to "Old No. 2" in your programs, number 1 in your hearts...

The Dude
08-22-2005, 06:54 PM
Gotta go with Nellie, but Frank is obviously the best of the last 20 years followed by Fisk.

SouthSide_HitMen
08-22-2005, 06:54 PM
I went for Frank, mainly because he leads the Sox in nearly every offensive category outside of stolen bases.

I voted for Eddie Collins. I think the old timers will not get many votes only because people were able to see players like Frank Thomas and some of the others first hand and that will obviously sway the votes. I doubt we have any 90 year olds who remember some of the real old timers but they were awesome as well.

Ed Walsh has a career 1.82 ERA which is still the all time best in the modern era.

Eddie Collins had a .333 lifetime average, .424 OBP and is ranked one of the best 2B of all time. He was voted in on the Hall of Fame's fourth BBWAA ballot.

Ray Schalk was a great catcher who led our team in 1917, held the record for most games at catcher for several decades and caught 4 no - hitters.

Ted Lyons won 260 games for some pretty bad Chicago White Sox squads post the Black Sox era.

All four of these players also managed the White Sox.

Frank will probably win by a landslide because everyone on this board saw him. I hope the old timers get their share as well.

PaleHoseGeorge
08-22-2005, 07:41 PM
....

Frank will probably win by a landslide because everyone on this board saw him. I hope the old timers get their share as well.

Well, I'm not saying it's right or wrong but that's just the way things are. Everyone falls in love with somebody of their own era. In 20 years I'm sure some future Sox player will be compared favorably to Frank Thomas by fans of that era, too.

We've had a small example of this with Magglio Ordonez lovers around here. They fell hard for Their Guy, claimed he was the greatest Sox ever, and then watched him shove their love ten feet up their ass. In the Big Hurt's prime, Ordonez couldn't carry Frank's jock.

SouthSide_HitMen
08-22-2005, 08:03 PM
Well, I'm not saying it's right or wrong but that's just the way things are.

I agree. It took a couple of years for me to warm up to Frank (being a lifetime U of Alabama fan) but he is one of the best players of his generation and should be a first ballot Hall of Famer (and I don't throw that term around lightly).

Carlton Fisk was one of the best catchers of all time but several of his years were with the Carmines whose hat he adorns in the HOF.

Harold Baines was my personal favorite and though not in the class of Thomas or Fisk as far as on field accomplishments go, he has always represented the White Sox with class and was a very good ball player as well.

Mark Buehrle has a chance to have a very good career when all is said and done - lets hope he comes up with some big games in October & gets some national recognition which he deserves. He is one of the most underrated players in the game.

Frankfan4life
08-22-2005, 08:29 PM
I voted for the Big Hurt (reasons below). Obviously, I'm biased.

TommyJohn
08-22-2005, 09:12 PM
Reaaaallllly tough question, because Frank Thomas is my favorite, and Nellie
Fox close at number 2. But I will cast my vote for Luke Appling.

*20 years with the team
* two batting titles
* ungodly .388 BA in 1936
* team record 27 game hitting streak
* batted .300 or better 15 seasons out of 20
* 2,749 career hits, would've been 3,000 if not for WW II.
* holder of most Sox hitting records until Frank Thomas
* record (since broken) 2,218 games at shortstop

never played in the World Series in his career, but because he didn't hit as
many home runs as Ernie Banks, and because he played on Bad, bad Leroy
Brown's side of town, was never gushed and fawned over the way Ernie
was.

I place Frank Thomas a veryclose second.

voodoochile
08-22-2005, 09:48 PM
Reaaaallllly tough question, because Frank Thomas is my favorite, and Nellie
Fox close at number 2. But I will cast my vote for Luke Appling.

*20 years with the team
* two batting titles
* ungodly .388 BA in 1936
* team record 27 game hitting streak
* batted .300 or better 15 seasons out of 20
* 2,749 career hits, would've been 3,000 if not for WW II.
* holder of most Sox hitting records until Frank Thomas
* record (since broken) 2,218 games at shortstop

never played in the World Series in his career, but because he didn't hit as
many home runs as Ernie Banks, and because he played on Bad, bad Leroy
Brown's side of town, was never gushed and fawned over the way Ernie
was.

I place Frank Thomas a veryclose second.

Just to be picky, didn't Carlos Lee beat the game hitting streak last year?

I obviously voted for Frank, not because I don't appreciate the others, but because I truly believe he is one of the great hitters of all time and would have been even more dominant in years past...

SOXfnNlansing
08-22-2005, 10:20 PM
good idea to make this poll.... I'm only 37 so I'd have to vote for Big Frank... he's been so great for so long... I remember back in '92 when I got out of the Army, he was awesome and continues to be so.

I want Mags back
08-22-2005, 10:21 PM
Geez i'm so surprised by these results

Malgar 12
08-22-2005, 10:57 PM
No I passed. My criteria was 10 + full seasons with the Chicago White Sox and a majority of your MLB career with the Chicago White Sox. Joe Jackson failed on both counts.

Did Eddie Collins play 10 years with the Sox? I thought he spent most of his career with the Philadelphia A's?

SouthSide_HitMen
08-22-2005, 11:13 PM
Did Eddie Collins play 10 years with the Sox? I thought he spent most of his career with the Philadelphia A's?

http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/collied01.shtml

He was a regular with Philadelphia from 1908 - 1914 and played 141 games in his final FOUR seasons (1927-1930 age 40-43 years) with the same team.

In the middle he had 12 great seasons with your Chicago White Sox.

Daver
08-22-2005, 11:28 PM
Billy Pierce.

His numbers are similar to Don Drysdales, yet Billy has no chance of ever getting into the HOF.

I will not go into a rant about how cheap and petty the writers that own a vote into admission to the HOF are, nor will I venture into how big a joke the baseball HOF is.

Chips
08-22-2005, 11:30 PM
Nellie Fox and I just bought his jersey over the weekend and I ****ing love it.

ShoelessJoeS
08-22-2005, 11:57 PM
Just to be picky, didn't Carlos Lee beat the game hitting streak last year?

Yes sir, it was like 28 or 29 games

Oldfellah
08-23-2005, 12:16 AM
WHAT???? no Billy Koch? What kind of poll is this? :o:

I'd have to say it's a toss up between Fisk and Thomas, only because they were the ones I watched the most!!

SouthSide_HitMen
08-23-2005, 02:24 AM
Can someone show some love for Ray Schalk. It would be nice if all of these great White Sox players get one vote. Do it for old times sake.

FielderJones
08-23-2005, 09:51 AM
Can someone show some love for Ray Schalk. It would be nice if all of these great White Sox players get one vote. Do it for old times sake.

Already voted for Walsh.

Walsh, Collins, and Schalk are the only ones listed that actually played for a world champion.

SouthSide_HitMen
08-23-2005, 01:43 PM
Already voted for Walsh.

Walsh, Collins, and Schalk are the only ones listed that actually played for a world champion.

I voted for Collins. One of the best ever at 2B. Schalk will hopefully get one vote. He caught our last World Championship. Anyone who saw 8 Men Out and read about it knew he was the one most angry about the fix. He is a Hall of Famer and one of the best at his position - in fact the best in his generation.

Mammoo
08-23-2005, 01:51 PM
Nellie Fox was the heart and sould of those great teams in the 50's and early 60's.

Here's to you Little Nel:gulp:
http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/hofer_bios/images/fox_nellie_1.jpg

VenturaSoxFan23
08-23-2005, 02:16 PM
I picked Frank. Not just because I seen him (I seen Baines & Fisk as well), but here's a guy who hit homers and batted for average in the modern era. He draws walks like picnics draw ants. Show me a hitter these days that can do that. You can probably count them all on one hand.

Otherwise I'd go with Nellie.

Frater Perdurabo
08-23-2005, 02:26 PM
Show me a hitter these days that can do that.

There simply isn't one among those who are not chemically-enhanced.

larryepke
08-23-2005, 04:11 PM
I voted for Eddie Collins. I think the old timers will not get many votes only because people were able to see players like Frank Thomas and some of the others first hand and that will obviously sway the votes. I doubt we have any 90 year olds who remember some of the real old timers but they were awesome as well.

Ed Walsh has a career 1.82 ERA which is still the all time best in the modern era.

Eddie Collins had a .333 lifetime average, .424 OBP and is ranked one of the best 2B of all time. He was voted in on the Hall of Fame's fourth BBWAA ballot.

Ray Schalk was a great catcher who led our team in 1917, held the record for most games at catcher for several decades and caught 4 no - hitters.

Ted Lyons won 260 games for some pretty bad Chicago White Sox squads post the Black Sox era.

All four of these players also managed the White Sox.

Frank will probably win by a landslide because everyone on this board saw him. I hope the old timers get their share as well.

I consider myself reasonably informed on baseball history, and I still voted for Frank Thomas.


Collins seems to have been a hell of a player in the deadball mode. He had high batting averages, lots of steals, and 47 homes in over 2600 games. He won the MVP in 1914 while with the A’s and was second in both 1922 and ‘23 while with the Sox. (Unfortunately, there wasn’t an MVP award for some of his years with the Sox.) All nine of his most comparable players are in the Hall, and few are there by accident. My only caveat is that some of his best production was for Philadelphia.



Catchers must be judged differently from other position players, so it’s hard to know what to make of Schalk. Only three of his most comparables are in the Hall, and all three of them probably are there for their managing rather than their playing (Wilbert Robinson, Leo Durocher and Al Lopez). Bill James speculated that Schalk made the Hall because he was one of the “Clean Sox” of 1919. His numbers are impressive, and it’s hard to know how, from a distance of about 80 years, to judge anything else.

Walsh’s numbers are overwhelming by present day standards, but of course all good pitchers in the early twentieth century amaze us. For example, that all-time ERA title. That’s quite impressive, but when you realize that the best record for a pitcher who played since WWII is #44 (the Sox own Hoyt Wilhelm) you see how the changes in the game should make us skeptical of what those numbers really mean. Walsh was a real workhorse, even for his era, that’s for sure.



For much of his career, Ted Lyons pitched relatively few games per season (supposedly only on Sunday’s). He had a long career (21 seasons, though the first and last were minimal) but surprisingly low on the all-time lists. Got a few MVP votes, but was only once an All-Star. (Admittedly, he’d already been in the league ten years before the first AS game.)

Collins seems to have the best case as the best White Sox player all-time other than Frank. And maybe I'm giving too much weight to Frank’s really good years, but from 1991 through ’97, he was just the finest hitter in the AL. And he showed one more touch of that level of play in 2000. If he doesn’t ever come back, he’s still had a terrific career.

BigEdWalsh
08-23-2005, 04:22 PM
I consider myself reasonably informed on baseball history, and I still voted for Frank Thomas.


Collins seems to have been a hell of a player in the deadball mode. He had high batting averages, lots of steals, and 47 homes in over 2600 games. He won the MVP in 1914 while with the A’s and was second in both 1922 and ‘23 while with the Sox. (Unfortunately, there wasn’t an MVP award for some of his years with the Sox.) All nine of his most comparable players are in the Hall, and few are there by accident. My only caveat is that some of his best production was for Philadelphia.




Nice first post. You make way too much sense. :welcome:

SouthSide_HitMen
08-23-2005, 05:11 PM
I consider myself reasonably informed on baseball history, and I still voted for Frank Thomas.
Collins seems to have the best case as the best White Sox player all-time other than Frank. And maybe I'm giving too much weight to Frank’s really good years, but from 1991 through ’97, he was just the finest hitter in the AL. And he showed one more touch of that level of play in 2000. If he doesn’t ever come back, he’s still had a terrific career.

I enjoyed your post. I voted for Eddie Collins (I wanted the Old Timers to get some votes) but Frank Thomas is the other hitter I considered voting for.

Eddie Collins had several of his great seasons in Philadelphia and continued his play after coming to Chicago (his HOF plaque has no cap but he played longer for the White Sox).

This poll is in response to the fact that ESPN figured there were no great White Sox players and thus only polled which Cub was the greatest player in their 50 states / 50 days promo (which by the way polled the White Sox as the favorite team a few percentage points above the Cubs) as well as ignoring over 100 years of White Sox baseball during their feature - another reason I am glad the White Sox are moving their radio broadcasts from their Chicago affiliate after this season.

TommyJohn
08-25-2005, 10:39 AM
Just to be picky, didn't Carlos Lee beat the game hitting streak last year?



Um, I actually wasn't sure at the time I wrote this. I couldn't remember if he just tied it or had broken it and got lazy as far as looking it up. Well, it was a then team record.

SoxFan76
08-25-2005, 10:48 AM
You asked for the greatest player of all time....that's why I don't want to pick Frank. Of course Frank is the greatest hitter in White Sox history (just look at the numbers), but he isn't the greatest all around player.

LVSoxFan
08-25-2005, 11:07 AM
Yeah. Frank as a hitter, yes. But player, all-around? Nah.

As somebody else pointed out above, you did forget Shoeless Joe. Or was that on purpose because of 1918?

UofCSoxFan
08-25-2005, 11:36 AM
Anyone want to take a guess who Willie Harris would vote for?

I'll give you a hint...he's not on the poll list, but he may be the best player to come out of Cairo, GA (just slightly better (in his own mind) than Jackie Robinson).

DenverSock
08-25-2005, 12:14 PM
I'd like to see a poll about who was the greatest pitcher in White Sox history. I'm asking for suggestions for names of same.